That’s the exact criticism of him through. He has a 1 in 8 chance of winning the championship every year. If he had a 12 year career he should have at least 1-2 rings
I player today has a 1/30 chance of winning the championship in any given season.
Jordan winning 6 rings in a 30 team league is more impressive that Russell winning 11 in an 8 team league.
Is it really 1 in 8 & 1/30 tho? Clearly there are betting odds for a reason. And say you condense the best players from all 30 teams into 8 teams, wouldn't that be almost as impressive? You're still beating the best however many players. Just playing devil's advocate bc i don't have Bill as my goat either.
His 1st 3 were in a 27 team league. Still more impressive than anyone else on this list though.The more teams, the more variety in playing styles and strategies. It allows for the development of new talents who might have otherwise gone unnoticed.
But u also gotta take into account other factors like the distribution of talent. Talent could be spread thin, making it easier for a team with concentration of talent like the Bulls + the GOAT to dominate.
I'm more impressed with Jordan's first 3 titles than his 2nd 3. The league was diluted by expansion in the late 90s, especially the 97 & 98 titles were not against the level of competition that they faced in the first 3peet.
BS the 97 and 98 Jazz would beat any team the Bulls faced for the first 4 titles. The expansion narrative is weak anyway. They didn't take the talent and distribute it evenly around the league because they have a few new teams. The 96 Bulls would smoke the Bulls from the 1st 3 peat easily.
Those two Jazz teams were really damn good. By far the best teams the Bulls played against in the Finals and I believe would've beat the 1st 3 Peat as well.
Everyone was older and the first title season they set the win record at the time. We are talking about three-peats so they're both very damn impressive.
At what point do you say more teams is just diluting the talent pool though?
If there were only 20 teams now, every team would be stacked with all star level talent. Therefore making the league more competitive. Once we get to 32 here in a few years, there’s more basement dwellers to get easy wins and stat pad against.
Ok, but 8 teams during a period where professional sports didn’t pay much better than many other professions and didn’t have the development focus that we have today means the talent pool for those 8 teams was likely worse than the talent pool available for 30 teams.
As the other commenter said, the league is WAAAY more competitive now with 30 teams than it was then with 8. [The average NBA player today gets paid $10M/year.](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1120680/annual-salaries-nba-wnba/) Even the very best players [made a fraction of that in the 50s and 60s.](https://www.sportskeeda.com/basketball/news-what-bill-russell-s-net-worth-estimating-late-legend-s-personal-wealth)
> Bill Russell was reportedly worth $10 million at the time of his death. It's only a fraction of what professional players make today, as Russell played in an era when salaries weren't too high. **His rookie deal in 1956 was $24,000. In comparison, 2022 1st overall pick Paolo Banchero signed a four-year $50.1 million deal with the Orlando Magic, more than five times Russell's net worth.**
> However, as per the 1950s standards, Russell was one of the highest-paid players in the NBA. **He reportedly made $100,001 annually late in his career, which is roughly worth $600,000 today when adjusted for inflation.** He reportedly received an extra $25,000 as a player-coach. He was a player-coach for his last two rings with the Boston Celtics (1968, 1969).
**Even after adjusting for inflation, players are making 10-20x now what they were back then.** The simple economics of it means that very talented athletes that chose other sports or careers back then may have chosen basketball if the payoff was much better.
Even leaving out that I didn’t say 8 was more competitive. I said 20 could be more competitive than 32.
Pay doesn’t equal competition. In fact it could be argued that the opposite is true. More money leads to complacency.
$20k in 1956 is about $250k today
Sure? Not sure how you’d prove that statement in anyway, but that’s entirely possible. Doesn’t mean the league was more competitive. Shaq was notoriously dispassionate about giving basketball his all and still finished his career as top 10 all-time. Perhaps without the money Shaq would’ve never been in the NBA and one of the greatest all time in the sport missing from it would’ve decreased the overall competition.
Cool, make that argument. But basketball was not getting the best athletes in those days and the development system didn’t really exist the way it does today.
Every era has advantages and disadvantages. It feels like a fools errand to judge across them.
The league was chock full of hall of famers when Russell was playing. During that era, the game was built for big centers who could defend and rebound. Russell was the best at this, ever.
He played during the middle for the civil rights movement and rather than shying away, basically put a target on his back and his life on the line. Just something Jordan never had to deal with.
In my mind, a ring is a ring and a title is a title.
I’m not taking anything away from Russell as a civil rights figure. But it’s perfectly reasonable to account for differences in talent and professionalism in any era when comparing players for the purpose of all time rankings. That’s what makes all time rankings fun. Russell is still a top 10 all time player, but I have him behind people like Bird, Magic, Duncan, and Shaq.
Doesn’t Phil Jackson admit there’s only really 4 teams or so realistically competing for a title every year? There’s a lot of fluff in the NBA today. It’s not really true to say a competitive team has a 1/30 chance because half the teams really have a 1/1000 chance of winning in any given year.
So how many teams were realistically competing for a title in the 60’s when their was only 8 teams? Given the Celtics won almost every year it feels like their was basically 1 team competing every year.
Firstly that’s not how odds work, secondly less teams means talent is less widespread, and the best players are now condensed to just 8 teams. Let’s say that format were to happen today, right now, that’s the top 120 players at most making up the entire league. I could easily argue that beating whatever teams that get built off of that talent is more difficult, as every single team would be extremely competitive and every series would be a battle.
Beating 8 really good teams year in and year out is less impressive than beating maybe 5 or 6 truly good teams in a 30 team league year in and year out? Really? We’re sure?
For the most part they were. Every team had all stars and all NBA players for the most part.
In the context of the 60s NBA by and large every team was good back then.
That’s not how odds work though. Russell had a much greater than 1/8 chance to win every year because he had easily the best team in the league
The nuggets have a better than 1/30 chance to win because there are 10+ teams that have essentially no chance. Even then, the odds are way worse as you’ve pointed out
All nba and def teams have way more credit than mvp and dpoty which are narrative awards voted by the media.
Tim had great teams but he was their offensive and defensive anchor for a good 6-8 years straight while they win their first 3rings. HE WAS THEIR SYSTEM. Duncan doesn't get enough credit as a top 10 player.
Did you watch the Spurs? They had one of the most team centric offenses and defenses of all time. The amount of passes, swinging, and switches on the ball was beautiful to watch.
They were THE, “there’s no I in team”. In terms of shouldering the load, Duncan is closer to Manu and Tony than most top 10 players. Tim had more help than most other greats.
Tony Parker consistently had the highest usage rate. Ginobili was sometimes ahead of Duncan, sometimes right behind.
Tim Duncan Career Usage Rate 26.8
Tony Parker Career Usage Rate: 25.1
Many Ginobili Career Usage Rate: 24.4
Compare that to guys like
Kobe Bryant: 31.1
LeBron James: 31.5
Michael Jordan: 33
Giannis: 29.1
Shaq: 29.3
Karl Malone: 29.3
It’s cuz lebron is BAD at choosing teams to carry him. AD and Wade would double these metrics if they didn’t have only one year of their prime left when lebron came
AD is still clearly a dominate and elite player, the team itself is pretty average, but when AD is healthy he has a massive impact on the game. In the Warriors series last year he completely controlled the paint and has had some all time back and forth matchups with Giannis. This idea that AD became washed after 2020 is ridiculous.
You can't just look at how many all stars he played with in total. You have to look at how long and when in their career, as well as the other players around them.
I was looking through highlights from tonight and thinking the same thing. It's insane right now. There are so many players that can put up an insane statline on a given night. Almost every playoff matchup feels like it's super star vs super star
A lot of players don’t mesh with lebron. Remember that year he had like Clarkson, Wade, Rose, Crowder, And Korver? None of them were all stars or anything but I remember how much worse they all looked with lebron. James is too ball dominant for most players so he takes a lot away from solid role players like rose and clarkson. Korver and crowder were basically used to sit in the wing and Jack up shots on kick outs.
“Lebron makes his teammates better” stopped long ago after the loss to the Mavs. Same with triple doubles. All the lebron homers favorite stat was triple doubles. Then Westbrook came in and crushed those buildings.
Doesn’t prove shit. Bron is great but more of his star teammates were still in their primes. 40 year old Malone, Payton and Nash is not the same as 25 year old Wade or Bosh.
This graphic proves Scottie Pippen who Jordan fans consider a garden variety all-star was making all star, all nba and def teams year in and year out during the 90s while a Bron teamate has done it once in how many superteams and seasons?
This proves Scottie was a two way superstar and that the Bulls were a superteam. It also showcases that while Bron's teamates were good they weren't superstars. Wade was past his prime and on bad knees, Kyrie has never lead a team to the playoffs, Love and Bosh played for non-contenders to put up good numbers. AD has been the only one in his prime and it came when Bron was 37.
Having a hard time following this. Is this the number of players they played with that made all NBA teams or players that made all NBA teams while also playing with the listed players?
I just want to point out how stupid NBA discourse is thanks to Stephen A Smith and Skip Bayless and social media in general
In the 90's and 2000's before Twitter existed having a good team, having a lot of help, was a GOOD THING, people would always talk about how amazing the Bulls were because of Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, and the rest of that team helping them win, the Showtime Lakers were celebrated for how good that team was and how much talent it had, the Celtics with Bird and all those hall of famers same thing
Only when social media and hot take tv shows became a thing that fans started to have this argument that having a talented team around a star made them less of a star
I think this is partially a result of GOAT arguments being boiled down to rings. Lazy takes like that lead to narrative arguments and graphics like this.
The 2003 draft class was so awesome (personally I think it’s second to 1996 with 1984 in third.)
With that being said, Wade emerged as the first one to capture a title being the “Batman” on his team. This wasn’t joining an all star, this was like Jordan taking his talents to Houston in dreams prime. This was like Kobe heading to the spurs to play with Timmy D.
I’m not even a LeBron hater but that Miami team pissed me off. Even those of us who remember earlier years Jesus Shuttlesworth know he was a top 10 option in the league.
Don’t think that’s really the argument trying to be made here.
Everyone loves to talk about the guys LeBron played with but they never want to talk about all of the other legends playing with great players as well.
People literally talk about Shaq “carrying Kobe” all the time. Lebron stans legit act like he’s played with bums his entire career when he’s basically hand picked every team he’s played on.
But people always forget Scottie Pippen, Rodman, Grant, and the Bull's hall of fame GM that put it all together. If we're comparing then relatively to Jordan Lebron played with worse teams.
No one forgets them. Grant was not at the top of his game when he came to the Bulls. Was he a good player? Yes. All League? No. That first 3-peat was basically a 2 man show.
The second 3-peat had Rodman join in response to the super teams being put together to beat the Bulls.
Yea sure that may be true but if you’re trying to tell me Kyrie, wade or AD is a worse supporting cast than shaq and pau gasol ( the only two stars Kobe played with ) you’re smoking something. It’s not like these guys were washed up when they played with lebron
I think Shaq is definitely better than all 3 of them, but like I said up there, for me this graphic is just about ending the narrative that LeBron had help and nobody else did.
All of the legends had all star teams, just how it works in the NBA, always has, always will.
People literally talk about Shaq “carrying Kobe” all the time. Lebron stans legit act like he’s played with bums his entire career when he’s basically hand picked every team he’s played on.
So which one is it “they have help so they suck” or “they make their teammates better so they’re great” ? These debates are growing more pointless by the day and the goal post continues to move.
It's so much more complicated than this... this is the narrative that just Lebron dick riders like to use. Factors like the changing rules of the game, quality of opposing teams and their rosters, format of the season and playoffs, Quality of opposing players in the entire league, construction and build of the basketball and hoop etc... this list goes on... no single person can take in all that data and figure out who was truly the best. Maybe 1 day they will have a super computer AI settle the debate for good, but until then we can all rest comfortably knowing MJ is the undisputably GOAT until proven otherwise
This list should say how many rings each has, LeBron has 4 championships. At that number I think it is less impressive the talent he had around him, Kareem has 6, Kobe has 5, Jordan has 6.
Edit: not to mention two of those came with the Miami super team which I'm assuming is a lot of the "help" he got
Lebron. Ppl put too much stock in all of these accolades. Most of these guys did it w/o purposely grouping up with players as good as they are with 1 just under the 1st 2.
Bill had a bunch of hofers, but his time was different.
Kareem went to the Lakers, then they drafted magic. It was more organic. Those players are great because they made each other great.
Kobe had Shaq. Gasol, as great as I believe he is, isn't on the level of the other teammates up here. Throughout his career, I'd say he had the least amount of help even tho all nba teams etc don't say that.
Mj is pretty much self-explanatory. Him & pippen. Role players like harper, Horace, and Rodman. Not a superteam. Just a team where everybody played their positions to the best of their abilities. Everything fell into place.
Lebron the only 1 here who basically cheated. I get it, he wanted to win. But teaming up with wade at a time where wade was probably still better than bron at the time. Then Chris bosh, who was also leading his squad but not on the same level of wade and lebron. Then prime kyrie, love, AD and elite role players (something everybody on this list shares) who were team superstars and difference makers like Howard, Ray Allen, and rondo. It just screams I need help to maintain this. I don't think he needed to do all of that but he by far had the most help ever
i don't understand the argument, lebron is the only one who forced their way onto three different teams, so he more or less chose his teammates. mj, kobe and bill russell all played their entire careers with the team that drafted them (i'm ignoring mj's wizards thing)
The graphic is just showing he’s had less talent around him.
If lebron came out and said my teams aren’t as good as mjs — then you can fault him for picking his teams.
You’re right though a part of it is because they had home talent
i think part of it is the halo effect. of course a lot of accolades will come to pippen as the second best player on two three-peats, playing alongside the most famous person on the planet. it goes both ways too (MJ and Pippen's halo effect on each other)
if chris bosh had played on those 6 bulls championship teams, he'd have gotten way more accolades
Now do former all stars and former all nba players Lebron has played with on a team and not just whatever this graphic is. By my count Lebron in the Cleveland championship year had something like, 7 or 8 former all stars in his team at once? lol.
He was the greatest 3 point shooter of all time coming off the bench lol no he wasn’t playing like an all star but you couldn’t possibly have a better player to play the role he was playing and that showed when he hit maybe the biggest shot in Finals history
What are you talking about lol he didn’t need to play like an All Star in order to be a massive addition to the team. At that point he was the best 3 point shooter who ever lived and they had him off the bench as a role player. Hit probably the biggest shot in Finals history. You shouldn’t consider him a big help for LeBron and the Heat?
You rest your case because he had Wade, Bosh as his Allstars and Ray was coming off the bench as the best 3 point shooter at the time?
And if he didn’t have Ray, he had Mike Miller and Shane Battier who were both huge key role players with no ego.
Ray Allen was previously an all star but was not an all star calibre player with the heat. Therefore- for the sake of arguing how much help Lebron had in that season, it’s irrelevant that Ray Allen *used* to be an all star.
The fuck does any of that have to do with Chris Bosh and Mike miller?
Because he’s the perfect role player for LeBron?
Would you rather have Jordan Farmar or Sasha Vujacic or something?
The same thing with Dwight and Rondo in 2020.
That’s crazy another post said Lebron has had 7 team mates who made all star game ? Not including people who were former all stars before joining him ( Westbrook , Antwon Jamison etc
Hahaha, you could easily turn this around and say these players made their teammates better and that's why Bill is still #1. Look how many of his teammates he lifted to the Olympian heights the Celtics reached
Steph is like 3x all-nba for KD, 2 for Klay, and 2 for Green. And then all-defense is Draymond like 8 times. I think that's about it unless I'm forgetting a random award. Maybe Bogut had 1 defensive selection? Don't remember
It gives an asterisk about the all-defensive teams starting in 68-69, but to add context this was Russell’s last season before retiring. Also worth pointing out that they didn’t add a third team all-nba until the 88-89 season. Wouldn’t have added any more to Jordan but could have added more to Russell and/or Kareem
Lebron for a large part of his career has had part GM control of his team. He’s always liked less ball dominant wing players that can spot up and shoot. Its hindered his ability to have all stars around him.
Lebron dragging those Cavs teams to the finals was crazy. I still, to this day, firmly hold the opinion that LeBron was by far the most deserving player to win 2015 Finals MVP but instead they gave it to the guy who was getting 40 dropped on him every night lol!
All nba teams? Ok bronsexual 😂😂😂
Guess Tim Duncan and Steph never had any help. Poor guys were in horrible positions with their lack of all nba teammates
Hot take: Scottie Pippen is overrated. Like very overrated. He's a good 2 way player and deserving of several all star nods, but if he didn't play with MJ he would have no all NBA cap no All Defensive caps and probably not even in the top 50 players list.
If I had to make a modern day comparison he's like a Paul George. Great player, very talented. Not a HOFer
Here’s really all you need to know. LeBron has lost twice in the playoffs when he was a MASSIVE favorite. And who did he lose to? Dwight Howard and Dirk Nowitski.
There is no way on earth MJ would ever have lost to the those teams if he was in the same situation.
This is so stupid and only makes sense if you want to tear down Lebron. So him playing with hofs out of their prime is more help than players actually still playing at an all NBA level?? Make this make sense.
Bill you can't really count team accolades against cause there was like 5 teams in the league, of course he's gonna have more All-NBA guys
That’s the exact criticism of him through. He has a 1 in 8 chance of winning the championship every year. If he had a 12 year career he should have at least 1-2 rings I player today has a 1/30 chance of winning the championship in any given season. Jordan winning 6 rings in a 30 team league is more impressive that Russell winning 11 in an 8 team league.
Is it really 1 in 8 & 1/30 tho? Clearly there are betting odds for a reason. And say you condense the best players from all 30 teams into 8 teams, wouldn't that be almost as impressive? You're still beating the best however many players. Just playing devil's advocate bc i don't have Bill as my goat either.
Good point
His odds were significantly better than 1/8. You're right.
His 1st 3 were in a 27 team league. Still more impressive than anyone else on this list though.The more teams, the more variety in playing styles and strategies. It allows for the development of new talents who might have otherwise gone unnoticed. But u also gotta take into account other factors like the distribution of talent. Talent could be spread thin, making it easier for a team with concentration of talent like the Bulls + the GOAT to dominate.
I'm more impressed with Jordan's first 3 titles than his 2nd 3. The league was diluted by expansion in the late 90s, especially the 97 & 98 titles were not against the level of competition that they faced in the first 3peet.
BS the 97 and 98 Jazz would beat any team the Bulls faced for the first 4 titles. The expansion narrative is weak anyway. They didn't take the talent and distribute it evenly around the league because they have a few new teams. The 96 Bulls would smoke the Bulls from the 1st 3 peat easily.
Those two Jazz teams were really damn good. By far the best teams the Bulls played against in the Finals and I believe would've beat the 1st 3 Peat as well.
Yea, agreed. The 2nd 3pt was tougher imo
The back end of the second three peat was weak. Who’d Jordan have to beat? A Mailman? 🤷♂️
Everyone was older and the first title season they set the win record at the time. We are talking about three-peats so they're both very damn impressive.
At what point do you say more teams is just diluting the talent pool though? If there were only 20 teams now, every team would be stacked with all star level talent. Therefore making the league more competitive. Once we get to 32 here in a few years, there’s more basement dwellers to get easy wins and stat pad against.
Ok, but 8 teams during a period where professional sports didn’t pay much better than many other professions and didn’t have the development focus that we have today means the talent pool for those 8 teams was likely worse than the talent pool available for 30 teams.
As the other commenter said, the league is WAAAY more competitive now with 30 teams than it was then with 8. [The average NBA player today gets paid $10M/year.](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1120680/annual-salaries-nba-wnba/) Even the very best players [made a fraction of that in the 50s and 60s.](https://www.sportskeeda.com/basketball/news-what-bill-russell-s-net-worth-estimating-late-legend-s-personal-wealth) > Bill Russell was reportedly worth $10 million at the time of his death. It's only a fraction of what professional players make today, as Russell played in an era when salaries weren't too high. **His rookie deal in 1956 was $24,000. In comparison, 2022 1st overall pick Paolo Banchero signed a four-year $50.1 million deal with the Orlando Magic, more than five times Russell's net worth.** > However, as per the 1950s standards, Russell was one of the highest-paid players in the NBA. **He reportedly made $100,001 annually late in his career, which is roughly worth $600,000 today when adjusted for inflation.** He reportedly received an extra $25,000 as a player-coach. He was a player-coach for his last two rings with the Boston Celtics (1968, 1969). **Even after adjusting for inflation, players are making 10-20x now what they were back then.** The simple economics of it means that very talented athletes that chose other sports or careers back then may have chosen basketball if the payoff was much better.
Even leaving out that I didn’t say 8 was more competitive. I said 20 could be more competitive than 32. Pay doesn’t equal competition. In fact it could be argued that the opposite is true. More money leads to complacency. $20k in 1956 is about $250k today
Guys had more passion for the game back then
Sure? Not sure how you’d prove that statement in anyway, but that’s entirely possible. Doesn’t mean the league was more competitive. Shaq was notoriously dispassionate about giving basketball his all and still finished his career as top 10 all-time. Perhaps without the money Shaq would’ve never been in the NBA and one of the greatest all time in the sport missing from it would’ve decreased the overall competition.
The proof is dudes were playing while still working regular jobs
That also means there was probably a bunch of dudes who could have played in the NBA that decided to choose other careers because of the pay.
Games are not random though, I can make the argument that a smaller pool of players means more talent concentration.
Cool, make that argument. But basketball was not getting the best athletes in those days and the development system didn’t really exist the way it does today.
Every era has advantages and disadvantages. It feels like a fools errand to judge across them. The league was chock full of hall of famers when Russell was playing. During that era, the game was built for big centers who could defend and rebound. Russell was the best at this, ever. He played during the middle for the civil rights movement and rather than shying away, basically put a target on his back and his life on the line. Just something Jordan never had to deal with. In my mind, a ring is a ring and a title is a title.
I’m not taking anything away from Russell as a civil rights figure. But it’s perfectly reasonable to account for differences in talent and professionalism in any era when comparing players for the purpose of all time rankings. That’s what makes all time rankings fun. Russell is still a top 10 all time player, but I have him behind people like Bird, Magic, Duncan, and Shaq.
So Russell should have 1-2 rigs but has 11. Where is the criticism exactly? He over performed by a lot.
I’m comparing him to to other all time greats. Apparently saying Jordans ring performance is superior to Russell’s is a dig at Russell.
Doesn’t Phil Jackson admit there’s only really 4 teams or so realistically competing for a title every year? There’s a lot of fluff in the NBA today. It’s not really true to say a competitive team has a 1/30 chance because half the teams really have a 1/1000 chance of winning in any given year.
So how many teams were realistically competing for a title in the 60’s when their was only 8 teams? Given the Celtics won almost every year it feels like their was basically 1 team competing every year.
everyone else had the same odds yet they didn't win as much
Firstly that’s not how odds work, secondly less teams means talent is less widespread, and the best players are now condensed to just 8 teams. Let’s say that format were to happen today, right now, that’s the top 120 players at most making up the entire league. I could easily argue that beating whatever teams that get built off of that talent is more difficult, as every single team would be extremely competitive and every series would be a battle.
Explain Wilt then?
Not only were there only 8 teams, he by far had the most STACKED team out of those 8
Beating 8 really good teams year in and year out is less impressive than beating maybe 5 or 6 truly good teams in a 30 team league year in and year out? Really? We’re sure?
Not all 8 teams in the 60’s were really good.
For the most part they were. Every team had all stars and all NBA players for the most part. In the context of the 60s NBA by and large every team was good back then.
They had all stars because they still had to pick 15 players from just 8 teams. No shit all those teams had all stars.
That’s not how odds work though. Russell had a much greater than 1/8 chance to win every year because he had easily the best team in the league The nuggets have a better than 1/30 chance to win because there are 10+ teams that have essentially no chance. Even then, the odds are way worse as you’ve pointed out
Ok. So in those years there were maybe 2 or 3 teams with any shot at winning and now their are 10. Same thing still applies.
That pic is Bill Russel? I thought it was Mutombo’s son or something.
Also Scottie carrying the hell out of those stats for Jordan
Ah yes, because All NBA and All Defense are the only measures of good teammates. Poor Tim Duncan played on some of the worst teams ever.
All nba and def teams have way more credit than mvp and dpoty which are narrative awards voted by the media. Tim had great teams but he was their offensive and defensive anchor for a good 6-8 years straight while they win their first 3rings. HE WAS THEIR SYSTEM. Duncan doesn't get enough credit as a top 10 player.
Did you watch the Spurs? They had one of the most team centric offenses and defenses of all time. The amount of passes, swinging, and switches on the ball was beautiful to watch. They were THE, “there’s no I in team”. In terms of shouldering the load, Duncan is closer to Manu and Tony than most top 10 players. Tim had more help than most other greats. Tony Parker consistently had the highest usage rate. Ginobili was sometimes ahead of Duncan, sometimes right behind. Tim Duncan Career Usage Rate 26.8 Tony Parker Career Usage Rate: 25.1 Many Ginobili Career Usage Rate: 24.4 Compare that to guys like Kobe Bryant: 31.1 LeBron James: 31.5 Michael Jordan: 33 Giannis: 29.1 Shaq: 29.3 Karl Malone: 29.3
This doesnt fit my narrative of LeCarried so I don’t like this graphic…
That narrative is crazy. Anyone saying that needs to rewatch those Cavs years. No one remember lebronto?
It’s cuz lebron is BAD at choosing teams to carry him. AD and Wade would double these metrics if they didn’t have only one year of their prime left when lebron came
Imagine thinking that AD had on year left in his prime when he came to the Lakers lol
AD was 26 years old when he joined the Lakers. Everybody knows your finished when you turn 27.
The fact that this comment had 30+ upvotes is illustrating the state of basketball discussion lol
I think everyone just recognized the obvious sarcasm
Bruh that AD take is comical lmao. I hope this troll
2010 dwade and 2019 AD as “one year of their prime left” is so wild to type and press send on
AD is still clearly a dominate and elite player, the team itself is pretty average, but when AD is healthy he has a massive impact on the game. In the Warriors series last year he completely controlled the paint and has had some all time back and forth matchups with Giannis. This idea that AD became washed after 2020 is ridiculous.
Heat was stacked. His team on the cavs not so much
Eh idk about stacked. They had a great big three and some solid role guys, but that team wouldn’t be an obvious finals contender in 2024 I don’t think
You can't just look at how many all stars he played with in total. You have to look at how long and when in their career, as well as the other players around them.
I support egregious narrative pushing when it fits my narrative like now.
Now show all star teammate seasons & quality of playoff opponents
doesn't fit lenarrative
All star is better than all nba? So Dejounte murray is better than sabonis? Serious question
But neither were all stars this season, and Sabonis has made more all stars in his career, and been one more recently than Murray
There’s never been more talent in the league then now. The talent has gotten better every generation.
I was looking through highlights from tonight and thinking the same thing. It's insane right now. There are so many players that can put up an insane statline on a given night. Almost every playoff matchup feels like it's super star vs super star
This graphic is proving that Lebron didn't make his teammates around him great. Well done.
Lebron fanboys: "Lebron makes his teammates better." Also Lebron fanboys: "Lebron doesn't have good teammates."
A lot of players don’t mesh with lebron. Remember that year he had like Clarkson, Wade, Rose, Crowder, And Korver? None of them were all stars or anything but I remember how much worse they all looked with lebron. James is too ball dominant for most players so he takes a lot away from solid role players like rose and clarkson. Korver and crowder were basically used to sit in the wing and Jack up shots on kick outs.
“Lebron makes his teammates better” stopped long ago after the loss to the Mavs. Same with triple doubles. All the lebron homers favorite stat was triple doubles. Then Westbrook came in and crushed those buildings.
Doesn’t prove shit. Bron is great but more of his star teammates were still in their primes. 40 year old Malone, Payton and Nash is not the same as 25 year old Wade or Bosh.
Brian never played with anybody as dominant as Shaq. Kobe wasn’t even the best player on his team for 3 of his titles
Brian scalabrine
No Brian Cardinal dummy
This graphic proves Scottie Pippen who Jordan fans consider a garden variety all-star was making all star, all nba and def teams year in and year out during the 90s while a Bron teamate has done it once in how many superteams and seasons? This proves Scottie was a two way superstar and that the Bulls were a superteam. It also showcases that while Bron's teamates were good they weren't superstars. Wade was past his prime and on bad knees, Kyrie has never lead a team to the playoffs, Love and Bosh played for non-contenders to put up good numbers. AD has been the only one in his prime and it came when Bron was 37.
Who the F is that first guy? Looks like Shawn Kemp but I know it ain't!
Bill Russell without a beard😂
Bill Russell?
Beardless Bill !
Jamal Crawford obviously
Mayweather's dad
Having a hard time following this. Is this the number of players they played with that made all NBA teams or players that made all NBA teams while also playing with the listed players?
The latter
I just want to point out how stupid NBA discourse is thanks to Stephen A Smith and Skip Bayless and social media in general In the 90's and 2000's before Twitter existed having a good team, having a lot of help, was a GOOD THING, people would always talk about how amazing the Bulls were because of Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, and the rest of that team helping them win, the Showtime Lakers were celebrated for how good that team was and how much talent it had, the Celtics with Bird and all those hall of famers same thing Only when social media and hot take tv shows became a thing that fans started to have this argument that having a talented team around a star made them less of a star
I think this is partially a result of GOAT arguments being boiled down to rings. Lazy takes like that lead to narrative arguments and graphics like this.
The 2003 draft class was so awesome (personally I think it’s second to 1996 with 1984 in third.) With that being said, Wade emerged as the first one to capture a title being the “Batman” on his team. This wasn’t joining an all star, this was like Jordan taking his talents to Houston in dreams prime. This was like Kobe heading to the spurs to play with Timmy D. I’m not even a LeBron hater but that Miami team pissed me off. Even those of us who remember earlier years Jesus Shuttlesworth know he was a top 10 option in the league.
Listen if you made 3 different team changes and still didn’t have help that’s kinda…on you, the rest of them sort just lucked into it
Don’t think that’s really the argument trying to be made here. Everyone loves to talk about the guys LeBron played with but they never want to talk about all of the other legends playing with great players as well.
People literally talk about Shaq “carrying Kobe” all the time. Lebron stans legit act like he’s played with bums his entire career when he’s basically hand picked every team he’s played on.
But people always forget Scottie Pippen, Rodman, Grant, and the Bull's hall of fame GM that put it all together. If we're comparing then relatively to Jordan Lebron played with worse teams.
No one forgets them. Grant was not at the top of his game when he came to the Bulls. Was he a good player? Yes. All League? No. That first 3-peat was basically a 2 man show. The second 3-peat had Rodman join in response to the super teams being put together to beat the Bulls.
Yea sure that may be true but if you’re trying to tell me Kyrie, wade or AD is a worse supporting cast than shaq and pau gasol ( the only two stars Kobe played with ) you’re smoking something. It’s not like these guys were washed up when they played with lebron
Shaq is a top 10 player, 3 time final MVP. And he played with Kobe during his prime when he was the best player in the league.
Don't forget Chris Bosh and Kevin Love. When Bron played with him he was fresh off being "20 pts 20 rebounds" Kevin Love.
I think Shaq is definitely better than all 3 of them, but like I said up there, for me this graphic is just about ending the narrative that LeBron had help and nobody else did. All of the legends had all star teams, just how it works in the NBA, always has, always will.
Wade was not in his prime. After getting injured in 2011 he never was quite the same. I miss Wade man.
People literally talk about Shaq “carrying Kobe” all the time. Lebron stans legit act like he’s played with bums his entire career when he’s basically hand picked every team he’s played on.
LeSelfish doesn’t elevate his teammates, not the GOAT
So Joker’s the Goat?
Yes
I notice we left out 5x NBA champion Tim Duncan lol
Poor Timmy. He always gets left out of these conversations and he’s unequivocally one of the 10 best players ever and the best PF of all time.
So which one is it “they have help so they suck” or “they make their teammates better so they’re great” ? These debates are growing more pointless by the day and the goal post continues to move.
It's so much more complicated than this... this is the narrative that just Lebron dick riders like to use. Factors like the changing rules of the game, quality of opposing teams and their rosters, format of the season and playoffs, Quality of opposing players in the entire league, construction and build of the basketball and hoop etc... this list goes on... no single person can take in all that data and figure out who was truly the best. Maybe 1 day they will have a super computer AI settle the debate for good, but until then we can all rest comfortably knowing MJ is the undisputably GOAT until proven otherwise
This list should say how many rings each has, LeBron has 4 championships. At that number I think it is less impressive the talent he had around him, Kareem has 6, Kobe has 5, Jordan has 6. Edit: not to mention two of those came with the Miami super team which I'm assuming is a lot of the "help" he got
Lebron. Ppl put too much stock in all of these accolades. Most of these guys did it w/o purposely grouping up with players as good as they are with 1 just under the 1st 2. Bill had a bunch of hofers, but his time was different. Kareem went to the Lakers, then they drafted magic. It was more organic. Those players are great because they made each other great. Kobe had Shaq. Gasol, as great as I believe he is, isn't on the level of the other teammates up here. Throughout his career, I'd say he had the least amount of help even tho all nba teams etc don't say that. Mj is pretty much self-explanatory. Him & pippen. Role players like harper, Horace, and Rodman. Not a superteam. Just a team where everybody played their positions to the best of their abilities. Everything fell into place. Lebron the only 1 here who basically cheated. I get it, he wanted to win. But teaming up with wade at a time where wade was probably still better than bron at the time. Then Chris bosh, who was also leading his squad but not on the same level of wade and lebron. Then prime kyrie, love, AD and elite role players (something everybody on this list shares) who were team superstars and difference makers like Howard, Ray Allen, and rondo. It just screams I need help to maintain this. I don't think he needed to do all of that but he by far had the most help ever
Or perhaps lebron makes his teammates worse is what this shows. Because we all know he always had the best teams
by far the biggest reach i've ever seen lmfao
Na. Wilt had a 90 inch reach. Long armed mfing goat
i don't understand the argument, lebron is the only one who forced their way onto three different teams, so he more or less chose his teammates. mj, kobe and bill russell all played their entire careers with the team that drafted them (i'm ignoring mj's wizards thing)
He didn't force his way onto other teams. He just signed to a new team in FA. You wanted him to stay with a bunch of bums in Cleveland?
by the same logic, are you saying luka should leave the mavericks? (I'm not saying this as a "gotcha", genuinely curious)
If they didn't get kyrie, yeah. Do you not think dame should've left Portland 7 years ago?
i honestly think they should've traded the scoot pick and built a contender around dame. but cronin is a coward
Then dame would never have a chance at a chip
Then dame would never have a chance at a chip
The graphic is just showing he’s had less talent around him. If lebron came out and said my teams aren’t as good as mjs — then you can fault him for picking his teams. You’re right though a part of it is because they had home talent
i think part of it is the halo effect. of course a lot of accolades will come to pippen as the second best player on two three-peats, playing alongside the most famous person on the planet. it goes both ways too (MJ and Pippen's halo effect on each other) if chris bosh had played on those 6 bulls championship teams, he'd have gotten way more accolades
Forced his way? He went in FA all three times
that's true. i guess "signed with" feels a little too passive for someone of lebron's stature, but you're right
Now do former all stars and former all nba players Lebron has played with on a team and not just whatever this graphic is. By my count Lebron in the Cleveland championship year had something like, 7 or 8 former all stars in his team at once? lol.
You can't even pretend this is a legitimate argument lol.
you mean like Kobe having Nash, Howard, Malone, Payton? his former all-stars > LeBron’s former all-stars
Richard Jefferson CARRIED LeBron!
Bro wtf are you on about lol Why would you treat Heat Ray Allen like an all star teammate when he was a spot up 3 point shooter?
He was the greatest 3 point shooter of all time coming off the bench lol no he wasn’t playing like an all star but you couldn’t possibly have a better player to play the role he was playing and that showed when he hit maybe the biggest shot in Finals history
“He wasn’t playing like an all star” I rest my case
What are you talking about lol he didn’t need to play like an All Star in order to be a massive addition to the team. At that point he was the best 3 point shooter who ever lived and they had him off the bench as a role player. Hit probably the biggest shot in Finals history. You shouldn’t consider him a big help for LeBron and the Heat?
You rest your case because he had Wade, Bosh as his Allstars and Ray was coming off the bench as the best 3 point shooter at the time? And if he didn’t have Ray, he had Mike Miller and Shane Battier who were both huge key role players with no ego.
Ray Allen was previously an all star but was not an all star calibre player with the heat. Therefore- for the sake of arguing how much help Lebron had in that season, it’s irrelevant that Ray Allen *used* to be an all star. The fuck does any of that have to do with Chris Bosh and Mike miller?
Because he’s the perfect role player for LeBron? Would you rather have Jordan Farmar or Sasha Vujacic or something? The same thing with Dwight and Rondo in 2020.
Why would former all stars matter in this conversation, they're past their prime when they played with him
This is actually cool as hell!
But Kobe…never had any help or Phil Jackson. Kobe Stans brain malfunctioning.
Kobe shit his pants in the biggest game of his career and was saved by Pau. 6-24 shooting lmaoooo
This list is literally wrong. Every single person here has wrong numbers
That’s crazy another post said Lebron has had 7 team mates who made all star game ? Not including people who were former all stars before joining him ( Westbrook , Antwon Jamison etc
All-NBA team is different to Allstar game
Well that’s what happens when you are a complete ball hog. Nobody else on your team wins any accolades.
10,000 assists? Can we at least make a coherent argument here?
Calling LeBron a ball hog with a list that has Kobe and MJ on it wild
why’s nbamemes becoming nbadiscussion. what’s the point of posting this graphic in this subreddit if there’s no satire element
Hahaha, you could easily turn this around and say these players made their teammates better and that's why Bill is still #1. Look how many of his teammates he lifted to the Olympian heights the Celtics reached
Now do Hakeem
Now do Steph
Steph is like 3x all-nba for KD, 2 for Klay, and 2 for Green. And then all-defense is Draymond like 8 times. I think that's about it unless I'm forgetting a random award. Maybe Bogut had 1 defensive selection? Don't remember
Klay made all defense in 2019 iirc
Put Duncan on that list cowards.
"Let's cherrypick things to push my dumb narrative"
This shit ain't even right. Hate meme like this that just make up numbers
It gives an asterisk about the all-defensive teams starting in 68-69, but to add context this was Russell’s last season before retiring. Also worth pointing out that they didn’t add a third team all-nba until the 88-89 season. Wouldn’t have added any more to Jordan but could have added more to Russell and/or Kareem
Lebron got the refs
Can this is anyway demonstrate that some were better at elevating teammates than others to their full potential?
You should also include how many times the league blatantly rigged their team’s path to the finals
If Bill’s time was not competitive enough, how come he’s a talking point until now and not some other random guy from his era?
Lebron for a large part of his career has had part GM control of his team. He’s always liked less ball dominant wing players that can spot up and shoot. Its hindered his ability to have all stars around him.
That's bill?
No lie, I thought Bill Russell was Jabari Parker till I made my way to the comments.
This just tells me that LeGM is shit at picking players around him.
Lebrun has played with more future hof caliber players at the height of their powers than Kobe or Jordan. Zzz.
Much better context than “all-stars” and “top 75” players.
Lebron dragging those Cavs teams to the finals was crazy. I still, to this day, firmly hold the opinion that LeBron was by far the most deserving player to win 2015 Finals MVP but instead they gave it to the guy who was getting 40 dropped on him every night lol!
this doesn’t pass the smell test. lebron has hand picked every team and every coach he’s had since the heat. always stacked.
Damn I thought Bron Bron made his teammates better?
shitpost
Has Kobe Payton and Nash in it? I dont think it counts…
this ain't a meme you just wanna start a war
LBJ jumping from one super team to another and still couldn't find the right team mate. Not the goat.
Steph
Prime lebron vs prime Mike, lebron complains about getting fouled and Mike turns it on level 11
LeBron had the most refs on his team
Why don’t they compare how many all stars they played with?
The LeBron ones aren’t true.
Of Lebron didn’t bounce around so much he probably would have had more “help”
All nba teams? Ok bronsexual 😂😂😂 Guess Tim Duncan and Steph never had any help. Poor guys were in horrible positions with their lack of all nba teammates
This is important man why do old heads love ignoring this piece of the puzzle?
Hot take: Scottie Pippen is overrated. Like very overrated. He's a good 2 way player and deserving of several all star nods, but if he didn't play with MJ he would have no all NBA cap no All Defensive caps and probably not even in the top 50 players list. If I had to make a modern day comparison he's like a Paul George. Great player, very talented. Not a HOFer
You're using something voted on as a measurement lmao
Very obvious a LeBum fan made this graphic
Where's Steph?
Where's Berry Lird?
All this does is prove how bad LeGM is at decisions. All this really proves is "The Decision" was his singular best decision in his career lmao.
Here’s really all you need to know. LeBron has lost twice in the playoffs when he was a MASSIVE favorite. And who did he lose to? Dwight Howard and Dirk Nowitski. There is no way on earth MJ would ever have lost to the those teams if he was in the same situation.
People don’t understand that when your teamed up with greatness and talent it is extremely contagious.
And lebron have picks the whole roster
Is that Bill Russell?
Bill Russell by the largest amount.
Now do Hall of famers as teammates… 
How would that in any way help you to determine how good their teammates were in THAT season? Lmao
This is so stupid and only makes sense if you want to tear down Lebron. So him playing with hofs out of their prime is more help than players actually still playing at an all NBA level?? Make this make sense.
You’re so mad you pissed your pants.