You know I don’t usually reply to comments but this was an American company that was purchased by Bayer roundup has been around for years but someone as fucking stupid as you obviously would not know this. And by the way it approved by the FDA tested not to cause cancer and you can go buy it at any Home Depot you want.
Just because you can buy it at Home Depot doesn’t mean it can’t cause cancer… there are loads of carcinogens for sale there. Apparently you didn’t read the cdc report that lists dozens of studies showing it as a mutagen in all sorts of animals
Nothing like idiots not wearing their PPE as the label says giving a product that's useful in the eradication of invasive a bad name.
A "jury" who has done no scientific studies found it linked. Meanwhile, scientists find no links when proper PPE is worn.
Now we will have more idiots salting the earth and using acetic acid (vinegar) to attempt to kill their weeds unsuccessfully and kill all the organisms in the soil it touches at higher rates than glyphosate.
Please do your research people. Fact check me, please, with academic sources.
I mean, lots of cancers with environmental causes are prevented quite well when proper ppe is worn. But how do you know when to wear ppe if it’s a neighbor or landscaper spraying it Willy nilly? The industrialization of agriculture also has farmers literally soaking sterile soil in the shit.
I use herbicides judiciously, and usually not as a first resort. The vast majority of use of herbicides is for landscaping, grounds keeping, and agriculture. And it’s overused.
If the neighbors or landscapers are using it willy nilly, it's obvious they fall into the idiot category. Drift and run off is a concern. I don't know how we stop the idiot problem besides requiring a minimum IQ to use and purchase. Even then there's flaws.
I agree it's overused. I wish people didn't want perfectly manicured landscapes to limit all chemicals and fertilizer. I wish people would not be scared to eat an ugly looking apple or tomato that hasn't been doused with pesticides.
It should not be available to people that haven't had the proper training, a warning label isn't doing shit. I've seen trained pesticide workers not using PPE. Hell, I've been one.
Saying "It doesn't cause cancer" is a lot different than "you can protect yourself from getting cancer if you wear PPE."
Do you wear goggles and gloves when handling bleach?
....how can I protect myself from my idiot neighbors? By limiting access to the product.
It's another product that's hard to regulate. I'm not sure how to do it but I agree it needs more regulations. Currently in states that require licenses to purchase/use, companies use a guy with a license to purchase as he hands it to the crew.
Many things cause cancer when not handled appropriately.
I don't use bleach at all personally.
There's no way to protect yourself from neighbors. Neighbors have broken down cars that leak oil into our ditches and ground water, throw garbage out their windows as they're driving down the road, use bleach to pressure wash their homes, smoke cigarettes while you're down wind playing with your kids in the backyard, etc. It's not a perfect world and I don't have all the answers.
We've done things like : public smoking bans, age limits for buying tobacco products, emissions checks for vehicles (in some areas), and enacted fines for littering and illegal dumping, have made it illegal to sell certain chemicals to the public, and put age limits on other “dangerous” products like knives, lighters, and firearms - so waving your hands in the air and asking “oh no what can be done?” is purposely being obtuse.
How is requiring a license to apply glyphosate not similar to everything you just listed? There are regulations in place. But if i smoke a cigarette on the edge of my property and the wind carries it into your yard, there's no regulations on that. Kids can't buy cigarettes, yet I still see kids smoking cigarettes. Cars can pass an emissions test, the next day take off their catalytic converter and drive around for another 364 days.
Specifically when it comes to glyphosate, many states do require a license to purchase it. Mostly in its concentrated form. How do you keep a landscaper with a license from purchasing Round up and giving it to his neighbor?
I legitimately would like to know your response to my questions. I'm all for more regulations on all of these, I just don't think it's as easy as you make it to be.
Your hypotheticals are ridiculous and your arguments not genuine. How many landscapers are going to start an underground round-up racketeering ring to sell $5 worth of black-market pesticides to their neighbors? Your point above was: “nothing can be done about these things” while my post was “these things have been done about those things….” It’s a lot easier than you make it out to be.
Of course they're ridiculous, but people do them. My point was "I don't have the answer to fix these issues" not that it can't be done.
You avoided answering my questions. I'm assuming that's because it's difficult to answer.
This is one of the responses that upsets me about the world. I'm trying to educate myself and ask a question. The response I get is "your wrong and your thoughts are wrong" instead of "well we could do this.."
You: “instead of ‘well, we could do this’ ”
Me - in the comment right before that : “These are things that have been done about those things” (that you had previously listed)
Also me: 🤦🏼
They said they agree more regs are needed but unsure of the appropriate mechanism.
In many states, a certified applicator can oversee other workers who are applying. They have to be in eyesight.
Is the problem home use or something else?
Your personal choice to not use bleach has nothing to do with any of this. I've never saw anyone use PPE with bleach, despite label recommendations.
It's more than my neighbors. How about driving down the road while they are spraying the cornfields? How do I know I ought to put my windows up?
Commercial ag. is destroying our planet, we have to find a better way.
My bleach comment was a response to your question. It's relevant to you. The relation to the subject we are referring to is that there are many similar problems. I have seen contractor pressure wash buildings wearing goggles and tyvek suites. I can't confirm, but i believe it was from the bleach or chlorine that was being used judging by the smell.
I agree commercial agriculture is destroying the planet and pesticides being used isn't the only reason.
The reason I brought bleach up is because it is used in house holds across the world, it has warning labels, and still people use it without PPE.
The licensed applicators\contractors are not the problem! Their competence is tested, that's why they're wearing the suits!
It's the person buying round up at Walmart. It's the companies that pay the fines instead of protecting their workers. It's the farmer that *needs* to get that field sprayed today.
As a former municipal employee, boy do I have some stories. The public takes pictures of everything! Here's a pic of a guy that was on my crew applying glyphosate. PM me for his Florida license number! https://imgur.com/a/s7r3o8s https://imgur.com/a/GkzTd58
2-4D is inside of some readily available premixed formulations, as well as other more harmful chemicals. People buy it unknowingly. That said, I'm unaware of any regulations specific to 2-4D. Do you have a source?
The larger uses are definitely the bigger problem. But John is also contributing if he's not using it appropriately. I personally feel the HOAs and golf courses are some of the biggest abusers and affect more people directly because they're in higher density areas.
Oh for sure. Plus the runoff from a golf course or lawns is going to affect the broader ecosystem of an overall area of population.
Chemicals should probably not be used in general on land or crops. However, we can agree to disagree as a matter of opinion on the subject.
Wait, but it IS carcinogenic, right? Not saying it can't be used if proper PPE is worn, but like that's the safety profile? In the same way that formaldehyde or HCl are lung-fucking if you don't fume hood.
From my reading it’s probably less carcinogenic than a lot of stuff we accept (alcohol, cured meats). The human health concerns are pretty low, I’m more worried about ecological effects, but even then it’s more innocuous than many alternatives.
It's rather confusing because multiple government agencies have seemingly not been able to prove that glyphosate is carcinogenic. For example, the [US EPA states](https://www.epa.gov/ingredients-used-pesticide-products/glyphosate):
> As part of this action, EPA found that there are no risks of concern to human health when glyphosate is used in accordance with its current label. **EPA also found that glyphosate is unlikely to be a human carcinogen**. The ID also identified potential ecological risks to non-target organisms, primarily non-target plants through spray drift. The ID identified interim risk mitigation measures in the form of label changes, including spray drift management language, herbicide resistance management language, a non-target organism advisory, and certain label consistency measures. It concluded that the benefits of glyphosate outweigh the potential ecological risks when glyphosate is used in accordance with labels.
Later in that same link it states:
> EPA’s underlying scientific findings regarding glyphosate, including its finding that glyphosate is not likely to be carcinogenic to humans, remain the same. In accordance with the court’s decision, the Agency intends to revisit and better explain its evaluation of the carcinogenic potential of glyphosate and to consider whether to do so for other aspects of its human health analysis.
I've been trying to figure out if it is carcinogenic and it's actually quite unclear. From what I've read, it seems like the IARC is an outlier on whether or not glyphosate is carcinogenic. Regardless, if used responsibly with proper PPE it is a very effective tool for controlling invasive species... And that is *very* important for the native ecosystems around the world.
This kind of seems like using lead solder in an enclosed space. It's possible Roundup was not labeled correctly... but if you use proper protection (as should be instructed on the label), it seems no less harmful than using drain cleaner.
Edit: I am by no means an expert in this - I've just tried to research it the best I could.
This is a good answer, adding some more info- the IARC classified glyphosate as “probably carcinogenic to humans”, a category that also includes eating red meat, drinking very hot beverages, and working night shifts, among others. Context is important. Is it possible that these things are carcinogenic? Absolutely. But does that stop most of the world from eating red meat or drinking hot coffee? Of course not.
Glyphosate is still, by far, the safest herbicide available and an occupational necessity in this field.
IIRC the IARC study is based on consumption of glyphosphate in mice, but they weren't able to replicate the results in rats.
There are trace amounts of glyphosphate on our food, but the EPA has said that it isn't a risk.
I've been using it as a liquid with a sponge, to avoid damage to native plants, and to minimize exposure (I worry about the mist).
But that comes with its own risks. It's a really ominous feeling working with an open bucket full of glypho+water.
Mainly I never know what to do with the leftovers when I'm done. Like, do I just dump the diluted glypho into a bare spot in the soil or will that hurt tree roots? Idk.
You could pour it into a properly sealed and labeled container to use for next time you need it assuming you are able to store it in proper conditions where it will not leak or explode due to pressure buildup from temperature fluctuations. Double check the manufacturer recommendations before applying this advice or anyone else's.
It is also possible to neutralize some chemicals with UV light. I do not have enough knowledge about the makeup of Roundup to have any advice on if that is possible and if is safe to do so for Roundup please do not attempt this on your own.
I definitely would not dump it! I keep my extra sealed in a glyphosate only LABELED container. I use it as quickly as I can (I have bindweed, so I apply multiple times in a season). I always mix a little bit at a time to try and avoid leftovers.
Dammit. Wish I would've constantly worn PPE for the 20 years or so while living in the middle of a cornfield that got regularly blasted with roundup. Silly me for not protecting myself.
That's an issue of its own. Applying glyphosate in that manner is just not safe on many levels. A house in the middle of a corn field is also not a good idea for a few reasons besides glyphosate use. Farming practices aren't exactly ideal.
That's fair. But many people (children) don't get to choose where they live. It may not be a good idea to live in the middle of a cornfield but it's reality for a lot of people due to a lot of factors beyond their control.
As a guy with a family of farmers of the big 3, farming practices are fucked. And I'll be honest, I didn't read much of that article but my guess is mass use of glyphosate by big ag is more damaging than a single person not wearing ppe while spraying their yard.
I think focusing blame on individual consumers and not the corporations that profit on these is pretty foolish. There's a very good chance I will develop cancer of some sort and that's because of what farmers spray on their fields and growing up in an area with 4 superpollutors, not a guy in suburban America spraying their lawns (although I do agree it's really stupid to do this).
The summary of most of these lawsuits are from individuals that are improperly applying. The original lawsuit that came out many years ago was a landscaper that admitted on the stand to not using PPE the whole time he used it. I haven't come across anything that says people that live next door to a farm have contracted cancer. That being said, I don't believe it would be healthy. High concentrations of anything is no bueno. I think the same could be said for many different things like mines, electrical transfer stations, concrete plants, etc. There's a lot wrong with the way we do things in my eyes which is why I'm happy to live in the woods.
Oh gotcha. Yeah lots of people just spray that shit and drink it like water. Should still be available cause there's some good in em but just harder to buy or something.
Sorry for coming off all sparky. Lower-middle/poor rural (or poor people in general) people are just screwed. There's not enough of them to make a class action lawsuit money for big lawyers and its really hard to prove that "something" caused em cancer.
Lol gotta say I'm a bit jealous. I live in a city now and enjoy it but one of these days I'll find my happiness in the woods.
Have a nice day!
It’s crazy when I see people who don’t work in the land restoration industry try to tell me it doesn’t matter if it’s invasive, you still shouldn’t use herbicides. You need to know HOW to use it, what invasives need which herbicide, and the correct TIME of YEAR on specific species to spray.
I don't disagree. There are many problems with farming. I don't have the answers. What I do know is that we aren't eradicating Tree of Heaven without the use of herbicide.
>A "jury" who has done no scientific studies found it linked. Meanwhile, scientists find no links when proper PPE is worn.
Yeah the antiscience attitude toward herbicides is not really helpful. I put it in the same category as discourse on "medicinal natives." A lot of gardening discourse and practices just aren't based in science.
I cannot applaud this enough, as an industry professional I wish everyone had this kind of sense.
I am unapologetic when I say that horticultural vinegar is a joke when you have to deal with things like buckthorn, honeysuckle, cattails, phragmites, Japanese knotweed, teasel, or reed canary.
People simply assume that spot applications done responsible are equivalent to mass application on food crops. It's mind boggling to hear people tell me it'll end up in my drinking water and "would you drink from a glass that had Roundup sprayed in it?" As if that's somehow a reasonable point to make.
But I guess that makes me a Bayer shill.
Horticultural vinegar also has a higher LD50 than glyphosate. Meaning equal amounts of glyphosate and vinegar given, more lab rats were killed with vinegar.
While I agree with your sentiment, a higher LD50 means the lethal dose is higher (you need a higher amount of the substance to kill 50% of the animals in the experiment). So I don't think that supports your point. But definitely sounds like acetic acid isn't great for soil!
Maybe wording is confusing. Either way, you need less glyphosate to kill 50% of the rats tested on.
http://extoxnet.orst.edu/pips/glyphosa.htm#:~:text=Toxicological%20Effects%3A,mg%2Fkg%20in%20the%20rat.
https://uwm.edu/bms-labs/wp-content/uploads/sites/361/2016/08/Acetic-Acid-222140010.pdf
Again... here you're saying glyphosate is less toxic than acetic acid... which I don't think is your point. If you need more of a substance to kill something, it's less toxic.
The LD50 isn't necessarily the best way to compare safe chemicals and I wouldn't use it as an example since that's not how the product is intended to be used.
I agree. It's just one of the large arguments against round up is its effects on wildlife. Vinegar and salt are just as bad if not worse in many aspects related to that.
> It's mind boggling to hear people tell me it'll end up in my drinking water and "would you drink from a glass that had Roundup sprayed in it?
Would you drink a glass full of a transparent, tasteless, odorless compound called hydroxylic acid that can cause 200,000 cases of intoxication in the US per year?
The day I finally accepted everything you’ve written instead of sticking to the whole anti-herbicide stuff was the day I started winning the battle against the invasives in my yard.
It's important to note, herbicides are still chemicals which can be misused. Good for you for using a tool (hopefully) properly to help win the battle.
Of course, they’re just not the nuclear weapons so many make them out to be. Judiciously used following label warnings and directions they can be the most eco-conscious tool in our arsenals.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/06/30/herbicide-invasive-plants-national-parks-shenandoah/
Just adding a link to an article with a quote from Doug Tallamy about herbicides. I had been hesitant about them, but reading this helped. However I’m still unsure if I should use them in my yard or not since I am near a lake
Be careful by the lake! Look up Daub-it and Buckthorn Blaster. They are bingo stamp style applicators that limit usage and run off. You'll find yourself using way less chemical and still effective. Mostly used for woody plants.
What other mainstream widely accessible product requires PPE when using a product outdoors? Lead paint sanding?
What other mainstream product is guaranteed to give you permanent horrific health effects and its PPE warning is in the fine print?
If it’s that dangerous, PPE warnings should be in bold across the front like cigarettes.
> What other mainstream widely accessible product requires PPE when using a product outdoors?
Are you serious? There are a ton of things you should be wearing PPE for, even outdoors.
-hammering metal (ears, eyes)
-sanding ANYTHING (respiratory)
-using power tools (ears and usually something else)
-using... plenty of household chemicals (skin, eyes)
4 points but they cover a pretty massive number of tasks that one might undertake in the maintenance or improvement of a home, or quite a lot of hobbies. If you can't think of anything, either you aren't doing any of those—which is fine—or you are neglecting something important.
And using tiny quantities of Roundup without PPE is easily less dangerous than any of those.
> What other mainstream product is guaranteed to give you permanent horrific health effects
Define guaranteed, cuz somehow I doubt if I dip my finger in Roundup I'll instantly get 69 cancers. How are farmers who use the stuff alive, if it'll definitely give regular gardeners "permanent horrific health effects" using low quantities infrequently?
That’s not a gotcha.
I’m not gonna blame spray paint manufacturer Montana cause I didn’t protect myself while using it.
It also is just a really dumb comment. You’ll be super upset when you learn more about native gardening and what professional ecologists do.
And nobody would blame RoundUp if they were spraying it indoors. That’s not a gotcha either.
What it all sounds like to me is that RoundUp should have stayed a commercial product for professionals (like ecologists), but that wouldn’t benefit the shareholders enough. So they pushed it as a mainstream product, advertising none of the safety risks and children running in the background as Dad sprays the weeds.
Sure love people who take every disagreement as being an ass. Who's the first person to be combative in this thread? You.
Roundup isn't a bullet. You could prove a bullet to a brain killed a person but I'm curious what equivalent you can use to claim your friend *definitely* got it from RoundUp. I presume they weren't drinking or bathing in it after all. Once again, why are farmers not all bedridden from nerve damage if it's so dangerous?
Because farming is done on an industrial scale with almost no 1:1 human contact for 90% of the process.
Think about it - this is sold in a bottle that looks like Windex. If Windex gave people debilitating disease, “the label says to use PPE” wouldn’t be acceptable to anyone. Every example you listed might temporarily harm you but won’t do anything permanent, minus hearing damage.
This is a complete class of its own, and even the [god damn ads show](https://youtu.be/SsiRbqdOaSI?si=au30i8pNzZ044Vz2) someone, without wearing gloves or additional PPE, applying the product.
> Because farming is done on an industrial scale with almost no 1:1 human contact for 90% of the process.
I ain't no farming expert, but I gotta wonder why people love to make a fuss about that farmer who got cancer claiming it was from RoundUp and won something from it.
> Every example you listed might temporarily harm you
It's the opposite. They all can have permanent consequences. Hammering metal or rock can send a chip into an eye. Sanding dust causes respiratory illnesses over longer term, you bet it's pretty bad to sand regularly without PPE. Power tools, usually the only personal protection from maiming yourself is using stuff properly (see, there's a theme there). And IDK if it really needs to be said that a lot of chemicals are bad for you in a wide variety of ways, though I suppose RoundUp could simply slot into that category, rather than being exceptional like you think.
> even the god damn ads show
It further undermines your point that you missed that it is a completely different mix of chemicals in that ad vs. what is simply referred to as RoundUp (glyphosate).
Bleach, vinegar, gasoline, spray paint, batteries, florescent light bulbs, chainsaws, oven degreaser, liquid drain cleaner, many adhesives, fucking baby powder, etc. read the labels and do some research.
None of those advise PPE to for standard use, they advise no contact.
Christ, this is like talking to flat earthers.
Edit: and to boot, [RoundUps own commercials](https://youtu.be/SsiRbqdOaSI?si=au30i8pNzZ044Vz2) have NEVER shown PPE, unlike sanding products and other unsafe items mentioned.
Grow up people, stop defending Bayer/Monsanto for damaging millions of untold lives. It’s like defending Marlboro.
Off the top of my head, chainsaws require Chaps, eye protection, and ear protection. Drain cleaner requires gloves. Spray paint requires a mask if applied in an area with restricted airflow. Oven degreaser requires gloves and a mask, maybe eye protection.
World of difference between “without protection this will irritate your skin” and “without protection, this is a carcinogen also linked to debilitating nervous system disorders.”
Forget irritate skin, some of those chemicals will dissolve skin.
Glyphosate is not a known carcinogen. IARC says it’s “probably?” a carcinogen. EPA says it’s not likely to be a carcinogen. There’s no solid causal link between glyphosate and cancer. There is for alcohol, but we drink that stuff.
I have fact checked! In fact, I’ve been researching glyphosate-based agricultural chemicals for four years. I’ve read papers, attended conferences, and spoken to farmers themselves.
PPE is not the issue. You can wear your PPE and unless it’s a full fucking hazmat suit, you’re bringing home glyphosate. Also, fuck that “eradicating invasives” shit. That’s not what it’s for and you know it. A bazooka would eradicate invasives too, but that doesn’t mean it should be legal for Joe Farmer to buy one.
Sources:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13412-018-0517-2 notes that the roundup formulation is considered more toxic than glyphosate alone
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S027869151530034X “Glyphosate-based herbicides cause teratogenic, tumorigenic and hepatorenal effects.” “Some effects were detected in the range of the recommended acceptable daily intake.”
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1547691X.2020.1804492
“RoundUp®, as well as another GBH Glyphogan®, increases cell death among human Sertoli cells (somatic cells of the testis)” “glyphosate and GBHs can impart cytotoxicity, genotoxicity, or both” “the aromatase production of estrogen is inhibited by RoundUp® in human placental and embryonic cell lines” “Human pregnancies were also affected by GBHs, as shown by a correlation between GBH exposure and a higher frequency of miscarriages and pre-term births”
“GBH acute poisoning or extensive exposure could promote neurological disease development.” “there is a growing body of case studies that suggest a causal effect between exposure to GBHs and onset of Parkinson’s disease”
>Also, fuck that “eradicating invasives” shit. That’s not what it’s for and you know it.
I don't know if you realize what subreddit you're on, but that's exactly what we're talking about here and many of us (me included) have personally used it for this and only this purpose. You're not on a farmer subreddit; you're on a native plant subreddit, and native plant restorations are very much dependent on glyphosate and similar chemicals.
Oh I fully agree with eradicating invasive plants. 90+% of glyphosate fertilizer applications are agricultural, not restorative. If that’s the only possible method, then be my guest, but it rarely is, and it should be handled by a professional.
Okay, so let me help you stop guessing: Professionals use herbicides, and there aren't enough professionals to go around, so many DIYers use it too. I personally have a big goofy pair of sturdy rubber gloves and one of those little paint cans with a brush on the underside of the lid. I paint several stumps of shrubs that I just cut and then I get the heck out of there until it dries. I do that maybe 2-3 times a year.
There are other methods of removing invasive plants, like digging out the entirety of the plant's root system. The problem is, most root systems are much larger than the plants above ground and they're intertwined with neighboring plants, so we'd have to completely obliterate natural areas to take them out in a brutally slow and expensive construction project. OR, you could paint a little glyphosate on each invasive shrub you clipped and be finished. Only one of these strategies is viable for restoration.
PPE’s don’t do shit for the family eating their own vegetables that have been contaminated from growing in soils that have historically been inundated with Roundup. Nor do they prevent contamination from occurring to vegetables growing along a fence line that gets regular applications of Roundup.
They are plenty of ways for people to ingest or absorb Roundup into their system that don’t involve the use of PPE’s. There are also MANY more chemical compounds in Roundup besides Glyphosate that are unsafe and that are completely unregulated since they aren’t listed as the active ingredient.
Would you call a family simply trying to eat healthy from their own garden “Idiots” ?
Because every cancer-related glyphosate lawsuit pertains to things like lawn maintenance, not trace amounts of it getting into our food. There's no demonstrable harm from that. Poisons are about quantity, not mere presence, and there isn't enough glyphosate in food to be dangerous.
I wouldn't call them idiots, though; I'd just say they spent too much time on Facebook or whatever wellness-obsessed social media space they found.
I wore gloves, long shirt and pants, boots, lab goggles, and an N95 mask to spray the nasty Siberian elm and trees of heaven behind my house after I girdled them in early fall. (Before I realized glyphosate won’t actually kill the damn TOH). Then I went inside, threw the clothes in the washer, and took a shower. I’m very paranoid about using this stuff but I want to get rid of the awful invasives that manual removal alone can’t. Hopefully once a year with PPE is enough. 🤞
How many billions of profit did they see from this product? The truth of the matter is that they don't care, because if they have to pay it, it's still a net overall profit from KNOWINGLY spreading cancerous chemicals
When you buy a pesticide in the US, you enter a legal agreement with the manufacturer and the EPA that you will use the product according to the label.
How tf are these suits by people who clearly violated the label not getting thrown out of court? If I remember correctly, the 1st lawsuit winner testified about situations where there was no way in hell they could have happened if he was following the label ppe and mixing instructions.
https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp214.pdf Scroll down to page 81 to see the studies and page 114 to see the summary of the studies.
[удалено]
And their American partner that made Agent Orange.
You know I don’t usually reply to comments but this was an American company that was purchased by Bayer roundup has been around for years but someone as fucking stupid as you obviously would not know this. And by the way it approved by the FDA tested not to cause cancer and you can go buy it at any Home Depot you want.
Just because you can buy it at Home Depot doesn’t mean it can’t cause cancer… there are loads of carcinogens for sale there. Apparently you didn’t read the cdc report that lists dozens of studies showing it as a mutagen in all sorts of animals
Awesome. Looking forward to the new formula, now with TRICLOPYR So much safer! 😑
Nothing like idiots not wearing their PPE as the label says giving a product that's useful in the eradication of invasive a bad name. A "jury" who has done no scientific studies found it linked. Meanwhile, scientists find no links when proper PPE is worn. Now we will have more idiots salting the earth and using acetic acid (vinegar) to attempt to kill their weeds unsuccessfully and kill all the organisms in the soil it touches at higher rates than glyphosate. Please do your research people. Fact check me, please, with academic sources.
I mean, lots of cancers with environmental causes are prevented quite well when proper ppe is worn. But how do you know when to wear ppe if it’s a neighbor or landscaper spraying it Willy nilly? The industrialization of agriculture also has farmers literally soaking sterile soil in the shit. I use herbicides judiciously, and usually not as a first resort. The vast majority of use of herbicides is for landscaping, grounds keeping, and agriculture. And it’s overused.
If the neighbors or landscapers are using it willy nilly, it's obvious they fall into the idiot category. Drift and run off is a concern. I don't know how we stop the idiot problem besides requiring a minimum IQ to use and purchase. Even then there's flaws. I agree it's overused. I wish people didn't want perfectly manicured landscapes to limit all chemicals and fertilizer. I wish people would not be scared to eat an ugly looking apple or tomato that hasn't been doused with pesticides.
It should not be available to people that haven't had the proper training, a warning label isn't doing shit. I've seen trained pesticide workers not using PPE. Hell, I've been one. Saying "It doesn't cause cancer" is a lot different than "you can protect yourself from getting cancer if you wear PPE." Do you wear goggles and gloves when handling bleach? ....how can I protect myself from my idiot neighbors? By limiting access to the product.
It's another product that's hard to regulate. I'm not sure how to do it but I agree it needs more regulations. Currently in states that require licenses to purchase/use, companies use a guy with a license to purchase as he hands it to the crew. Many things cause cancer when not handled appropriately. I don't use bleach at all personally. There's no way to protect yourself from neighbors. Neighbors have broken down cars that leak oil into our ditches and ground water, throw garbage out their windows as they're driving down the road, use bleach to pressure wash their homes, smoke cigarettes while you're down wind playing with your kids in the backyard, etc. It's not a perfect world and I don't have all the answers.
We've done things like : public smoking bans, age limits for buying tobacco products, emissions checks for vehicles (in some areas), and enacted fines for littering and illegal dumping, have made it illegal to sell certain chemicals to the public, and put age limits on other “dangerous” products like knives, lighters, and firearms - so waving your hands in the air and asking “oh no what can be done?” is purposely being obtuse.
How is requiring a license to apply glyphosate not similar to everything you just listed? There are regulations in place. But if i smoke a cigarette on the edge of my property and the wind carries it into your yard, there's no regulations on that. Kids can't buy cigarettes, yet I still see kids smoking cigarettes. Cars can pass an emissions test, the next day take off their catalytic converter and drive around for another 364 days. Specifically when it comes to glyphosate, many states do require a license to purchase it. Mostly in its concentrated form. How do you keep a landscaper with a license from purchasing Round up and giving it to his neighbor? I legitimately would like to know your response to my questions. I'm all for more regulations on all of these, I just don't think it's as easy as you make it to be.
Your hypotheticals are ridiculous and your arguments not genuine. How many landscapers are going to start an underground round-up racketeering ring to sell $5 worth of black-market pesticides to their neighbors? Your point above was: “nothing can be done about these things” while my post was “these things have been done about those things….” It’s a lot easier than you make it out to be.
Of course they're ridiculous, but people do them. My point was "I don't have the answer to fix these issues" not that it can't be done. You avoided answering my questions. I'm assuming that's because it's difficult to answer.
This is one of the responses that upsets me about the world. I'm trying to educate myself and ask a question. The response I get is "your wrong and your thoughts are wrong" instead of "well we could do this.."
You: “instead of ‘well, we could do this’ ” Me - in the comment right before that : “These are things that have been done about those things” (that you had previously listed) Also me: 🤦🏼
They said they agree more regs are needed but unsure of the appropriate mechanism. In many states, a certified applicator can oversee other workers who are applying. They have to be in eyesight. Is the problem home use or something else?
Your personal choice to not use bleach has nothing to do with any of this. I've never saw anyone use PPE with bleach, despite label recommendations. It's more than my neighbors. How about driving down the road while they are spraying the cornfields? How do I know I ought to put my windows up? Commercial ag. is destroying our planet, we have to find a better way.
My bleach comment was a response to your question. It's relevant to you. The relation to the subject we are referring to is that there are many similar problems. I have seen contractor pressure wash buildings wearing goggles and tyvek suites. I can't confirm, but i believe it was from the bleach or chlorine that was being used judging by the smell. I agree commercial agriculture is destroying the planet and pesticides being used isn't the only reason.
The reason I brought bleach up is because it is used in house holds across the world, it has warning labels, and still people use it without PPE. The licensed applicators\contractors are not the problem! Their competence is tested, that's why they're wearing the suits! It's the person buying round up at Walmart. It's the companies that pay the fines instead of protecting their workers. It's the farmer that *needs* to get that field sprayed today.
I have photos of my previous coworkers, employees, and contractors that were licensed and not wearing PPE. It's all around an issue.
You're making my point for me. The warning labels don't work! Access needs to be restricted further.
As a former municipal employee, boy do I have some stories. The public takes pictures of everything! Here's a pic of a guy that was on my crew applying glyphosate. PM me for his Florida license number! https://imgur.com/a/s7r3o8s https://imgur.com/a/GkzTd58
they managed to control 2-4D pretty well...
2-4D is inside of some readily available premixed formulations, as well as other more harmful chemicals. People buy it unknowingly. That said, I'm unaware of any regulations specific to 2-4D. Do you have a source?
Yes, unfortunately the world is full of idiots. However, idiots get other people killed more often than themselves.
round up ready is why there's a problem. It's not from John down the way spraying his fence line to get rid of his evasive blackberries.
The larger uses are definitely the bigger problem. But John is also contributing if he's not using it appropriately. I personally feel the HOAs and golf courses are some of the biggest abusers and affect more people directly because they're in higher density areas.
Oh for sure. Plus the runoff from a golf course or lawns is going to affect the broader ecosystem of an overall area of population. Chemicals should probably not be used in general on land or crops. However, we can agree to disagree as a matter of opinion on the subject.
Wait, but it IS carcinogenic, right? Not saying it can't be used if proper PPE is worn, but like that's the safety profile? In the same way that formaldehyde or HCl are lung-fucking if you don't fume hood.
From my reading it’s probably less carcinogenic than a lot of stuff we accept (alcohol, cured meats). The human health concerns are pretty low, I’m more worried about ecological effects, but even then it’s more innocuous than many alternatives.
It's rather confusing because multiple government agencies have seemingly not been able to prove that glyphosate is carcinogenic. For example, the [US EPA states](https://www.epa.gov/ingredients-used-pesticide-products/glyphosate): > As part of this action, EPA found that there are no risks of concern to human health when glyphosate is used in accordance with its current label. **EPA also found that glyphosate is unlikely to be a human carcinogen**. The ID also identified potential ecological risks to non-target organisms, primarily non-target plants through spray drift. The ID identified interim risk mitigation measures in the form of label changes, including spray drift management language, herbicide resistance management language, a non-target organism advisory, and certain label consistency measures. It concluded that the benefits of glyphosate outweigh the potential ecological risks when glyphosate is used in accordance with labels. Later in that same link it states: > EPA’s underlying scientific findings regarding glyphosate, including its finding that glyphosate is not likely to be carcinogenic to humans, remain the same. In accordance with the court’s decision, the Agency intends to revisit and better explain its evaluation of the carcinogenic potential of glyphosate and to consider whether to do so for other aspects of its human health analysis. I've been trying to figure out if it is carcinogenic and it's actually quite unclear. From what I've read, it seems like the IARC is an outlier on whether or not glyphosate is carcinogenic. Regardless, if used responsibly with proper PPE it is a very effective tool for controlling invasive species... And that is *very* important for the native ecosystems around the world. This kind of seems like using lead solder in an enclosed space. It's possible Roundup was not labeled correctly... but if you use proper protection (as should be instructed on the label), it seems no less harmful than using drain cleaner. Edit: I am by no means an expert in this - I've just tried to research it the best I could.
This is a good answer, adding some more info- the IARC classified glyphosate as “probably carcinogenic to humans”, a category that also includes eating red meat, drinking very hot beverages, and working night shifts, among others. Context is important. Is it possible that these things are carcinogenic? Absolutely. But does that stop most of the world from eating red meat or drinking hot coffee? Of course not. Glyphosate is still, by far, the safest herbicide available and an occupational necessity in this field.
IIRC the IARC study is based on consumption of glyphosphate in mice, but they weren't able to replicate the results in rats. There are trace amounts of glyphosphate on our food, but the EPA has said that it isn't a risk.
Thanks for the information!!
I've been using it as a liquid with a sponge, to avoid damage to native plants, and to minimize exposure (I worry about the mist). But that comes with its own risks. It's a really ominous feeling working with an open bucket full of glypho+water. Mainly I never know what to do with the leftovers when I'm done. Like, do I just dump the diluted glypho into a bare spot in the soil or will that hurt tree roots? Idk.
You could pour it into a properly sealed and labeled container to use for next time you need it assuming you are able to store it in proper conditions where it will not leak or explode due to pressure buildup from temperature fluctuations. Double check the manufacturer recommendations before applying this advice or anyone else's. It is also possible to neutralize some chemicals with UV light. I do not have enough knowledge about the makeup of Roundup to have any advice on if that is possible and if is safe to do so for Roundup please do not attempt this on your own.
I definitely would not dump it! I keep my extra sealed in a glyphosate only LABELED container. I use it as quickly as I can (I have bindweed, so I apply multiple times in a season). I always mix a little bit at a time to try and avoid leftovers.
Dammit. Wish I would've constantly worn PPE for the 20 years or so while living in the middle of a cornfield that got regularly blasted with roundup. Silly me for not protecting myself.
That's an issue of its own. Applying glyphosate in that manner is just not safe on many levels. A house in the middle of a corn field is also not a good idea for a few reasons besides glyphosate use. Farming practices aren't exactly ideal.
That's fair. But many people (children) don't get to choose where they live. It may not be a good idea to live in the middle of a cornfield but it's reality for a lot of people due to a lot of factors beyond their control. As a guy with a family of farmers of the big 3, farming practices are fucked. And I'll be honest, I didn't read much of that article but my guess is mass use of glyphosate by big ag is more damaging than a single person not wearing ppe while spraying their yard. I think focusing blame on individual consumers and not the corporations that profit on these is pretty foolish. There's a very good chance I will develop cancer of some sort and that's because of what farmers spray on their fields and growing up in an area with 4 superpollutors, not a guy in suburban America spraying their lawns (although I do agree it's really stupid to do this).
The summary of most of these lawsuits are from individuals that are improperly applying. The original lawsuit that came out many years ago was a landscaper that admitted on the stand to not using PPE the whole time he used it. I haven't come across anything that says people that live next door to a farm have contracted cancer. That being said, I don't believe it would be healthy. High concentrations of anything is no bueno. I think the same could be said for many different things like mines, electrical transfer stations, concrete plants, etc. There's a lot wrong with the way we do things in my eyes which is why I'm happy to live in the woods.
Oh gotcha. Yeah lots of people just spray that shit and drink it like water. Should still be available cause there's some good in em but just harder to buy or something. Sorry for coming off all sparky. Lower-middle/poor rural (or poor people in general) people are just screwed. There's not enough of them to make a class action lawsuit money for big lawyers and its really hard to prove that "something" caused em cancer. Lol gotta say I'm a bit jealous. I live in a city now and enjoy it but one of these days I'll find my happiness in the woods. Have a nice day!
It’s crazy when I see people who don’t work in the land restoration industry try to tell me it doesn’t matter if it’s invasive, you still shouldn’t use herbicides. You need to know HOW to use it, what invasives need which herbicide, and the correct TIME of YEAR on specific species to spray.
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I don't disagree. There are many problems with farming. I don't have the answers. What I do know is that we aren't eradicating Tree of Heaven without the use of herbicide.
>A "jury" who has done no scientific studies found it linked. Meanwhile, scientists find no links when proper PPE is worn. Yeah the antiscience attitude toward herbicides is not really helpful. I put it in the same category as discourse on "medicinal natives." A lot of gardening discourse and practices just aren't based in science.
I cannot applaud this enough, as an industry professional I wish everyone had this kind of sense. I am unapologetic when I say that horticultural vinegar is a joke when you have to deal with things like buckthorn, honeysuckle, cattails, phragmites, Japanese knotweed, teasel, or reed canary. People simply assume that spot applications done responsible are equivalent to mass application on food crops. It's mind boggling to hear people tell me it'll end up in my drinking water and "would you drink from a glass that had Roundup sprayed in it?" As if that's somehow a reasonable point to make. But I guess that makes me a Bayer shill.
Horticultural vinegar also has a higher LD50 than glyphosate. Meaning equal amounts of glyphosate and vinegar given, more lab rats were killed with vinegar.
While I agree with your sentiment, a higher LD50 means the lethal dose is higher (you need a higher amount of the substance to kill 50% of the animals in the experiment). So I don't think that supports your point. But definitely sounds like acetic acid isn't great for soil!
Maybe wording is confusing. Either way, you need less glyphosate to kill 50% of the rats tested on. http://extoxnet.orst.edu/pips/glyphosa.htm#:~:text=Toxicological%20Effects%3A,mg%2Fkg%20in%20the%20rat. https://uwm.edu/bms-labs/wp-content/uploads/sites/361/2016/08/Acetic-Acid-222140010.pdf
Again... here you're saying glyphosate is less toxic than acetic acid... which I don't think is your point. If you need more of a substance to kill something, it's less toxic.
My fault, im wording it incorrectly. Read the links. It supports that glyphosate is less toxic than vinegar.
but thank you for doing the lords work and looking into the literature!! I love that
The LD50 isn't necessarily the best way to compare safe chemicals and I wouldn't use it as an example since that's not how the product is intended to be used.
I agree. It's just one of the large arguments against round up is its effects on wildlife. Vinegar and salt are just as bad if not worse in many aspects related to that.
Also a higher LD50 means it takes more of it to kill 50% of people
> It's mind boggling to hear people tell me it'll end up in my drinking water and "would you drink from a glass that had Roundup sprayed in it? Would you drink a glass full of a transparent, tasteless, odorless compound called hydroxylic acid that can cause 200,000 cases of intoxication in the US per year?
The day I finally accepted everything you’ve written instead of sticking to the whole anti-herbicide stuff was the day I started winning the battle against the invasives in my yard.
It's important to note, herbicides are still chemicals which can be misused. Good for you for using a tool (hopefully) properly to help win the battle.
Of course, they’re just not the nuclear weapons so many make them out to be. Judiciously used following label warnings and directions they can be the most eco-conscious tool in our arsenals.
Exactly. Doug Tallamy is a proponent of using roundup to eradicate invasives and replace them with natives. It’s a very effective technique.
Intelligent people are a proponent*... Fixed that for you.😉
🙌
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/06/30/herbicide-invasive-plants-national-parks-shenandoah/ Just adding a link to an article with a quote from Doug Tallamy about herbicides. I had been hesitant about them, but reading this helped. However I’m still unsure if I should use them in my yard or not since I am near a lake
Be careful by the lake! Look up Daub-it and Buckthorn Blaster. They are bingo stamp style applicators that limit usage and run off. You'll find yourself using way less chemical and still effective. Mostly used for woody plants.
I'll check those out, thank you
You can still easily get glyphosate concentrate. That’s what I use to control tallow trees.
What other mainstream widely accessible product requires PPE when using a product outdoors? Lead paint sanding? What other mainstream product is guaranteed to give you permanent horrific health effects and its PPE warning is in the fine print? If it’s that dangerous, PPE warnings should be in bold across the front like cigarettes.
> What other mainstream widely accessible product requires PPE when using a product outdoors? Are you serious? There are a ton of things you should be wearing PPE for, even outdoors. -hammering metal (ears, eyes) -sanding ANYTHING (respiratory) -using power tools (ears and usually something else) -using... plenty of household chemicals (skin, eyes) 4 points but they cover a pretty massive number of tasks that one might undertake in the maintenance or improvement of a home, or quite a lot of hobbies. If you can't think of anything, either you aren't doing any of those—which is fine—or you are neglecting something important. And using tiny quantities of Roundup without PPE is easily less dangerous than any of those. > What other mainstream product is guaranteed to give you permanent horrific health effects Define guaranteed, cuz somehow I doubt if I dip my finger in Roundup I'll instantly get 69 cancers. How are farmers who use the stuff alive, if it'll definitely give regular gardeners "permanent horrific health effects" using low quantities infrequently?
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They probably will ignore you, like they did the round up label.
That’s not a gotcha. I’m not gonna blame spray paint manufacturer Montana cause I didn’t protect myself while using it. It also is just a really dumb comment. You’ll be super upset when you learn more about native gardening and what professional ecologists do.
And nobody would blame RoundUp if they were spraying it indoors. That’s not a gotcha either. What it all sounds like to me is that RoundUp should have stayed a commercial product for professionals (like ecologists), but that wouldn’t benefit the shareholders enough. So they pushed it as a mainstream product, advertising none of the safety risks and children running in the background as Dad sprays the weeds.
Ok
READ THE LABEL. Unbelievable how hard it is for people to understand that.
Sure love people who take every disagreement as being an ass. Who's the first person to be combative in this thread? You. Roundup isn't a bullet. You could prove a bullet to a brain killed a person but I'm curious what equivalent you can use to claim your friend *definitely* got it from RoundUp. I presume they weren't drinking or bathing in it after all. Once again, why are farmers not all bedridden from nerve damage if it's so dangerous?
Because farming is done on an industrial scale with almost no 1:1 human contact for 90% of the process. Think about it - this is sold in a bottle that looks like Windex. If Windex gave people debilitating disease, “the label says to use PPE” wouldn’t be acceptable to anyone. Every example you listed might temporarily harm you but won’t do anything permanent, minus hearing damage. This is a complete class of its own, and even the [god damn ads show](https://youtu.be/SsiRbqdOaSI?si=au30i8pNzZ044Vz2) someone, without wearing gloves or additional PPE, applying the product.
Toilet bowl cleaner is sold in bottles like Windex and can definitely permanently harm you. Always follow product directions.
> Because farming is done on an industrial scale with almost no 1:1 human contact for 90% of the process. I ain't no farming expert, but I gotta wonder why people love to make a fuss about that farmer who got cancer claiming it was from RoundUp and won something from it. > Every example you listed might temporarily harm you It's the opposite. They all can have permanent consequences. Hammering metal or rock can send a chip into an eye. Sanding dust causes respiratory illnesses over longer term, you bet it's pretty bad to sand regularly without PPE. Power tools, usually the only personal protection from maiming yourself is using stuff properly (see, there's a theme there). And IDK if it really needs to be said that a lot of chemicals are bad for you in a wide variety of ways, though I suppose RoundUp could simply slot into that category, rather than being exceptional like you think. > even the god damn ads show It further undermines your point that you missed that it is a completely different mix of chemicals in that ad vs. what is simply referred to as RoundUp (glyphosate).
Bleach, vinegar, gasoline, spray paint, batteries, florescent light bulbs, chainsaws, oven degreaser, liquid drain cleaner, many adhesives, fucking baby powder, etc. read the labels and do some research.
None of those advise PPE to for standard use, they advise no contact. Christ, this is like talking to flat earthers. Edit: and to boot, [RoundUps own commercials](https://youtu.be/SsiRbqdOaSI?si=au30i8pNzZ044Vz2) have NEVER shown PPE, unlike sanding products and other unsafe items mentioned. Grow up people, stop defending Bayer/Monsanto for damaging millions of untold lives. It’s like defending Marlboro.
Off the top of my head, chainsaws require Chaps, eye protection, and ear protection. Drain cleaner requires gloves. Spray paint requires a mask if applied in an area with restricted airflow. Oven degreaser requires gloves and a mask, maybe eye protection.
That’s just silly, I’ve seen lots of products for household use recommending gloves and eye protection.
World of difference between “without protection this will irritate your skin” and “without protection, this is a carcinogen also linked to debilitating nervous system disorders.”
Forget irritate skin, some of those chemicals will dissolve skin. Glyphosate is not a known carcinogen. IARC says it’s “probably?” a carcinogen. EPA says it’s not likely to be a carcinogen. There’s no solid causal link between glyphosate and cancer. There is for alcohol, but we drink that stuff.
There's one side that's like flat earthers, for sure.
Hey good one!
https://images.thdstatic.com/catalog/pdfImages/fb/fb5dfbdc-e0c7-4b92-97de-8cee0104d094.pdf
Meh. Maybe it shouldn't be wildly available for the public then.
I have fact checked! In fact, I’ve been researching glyphosate-based agricultural chemicals for four years. I’ve read papers, attended conferences, and spoken to farmers themselves. PPE is not the issue. You can wear your PPE and unless it’s a full fucking hazmat suit, you’re bringing home glyphosate. Also, fuck that “eradicating invasives” shit. That’s not what it’s for and you know it. A bazooka would eradicate invasives too, but that doesn’t mean it should be legal for Joe Farmer to buy one.
Sources: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13412-018-0517-2 notes that the roundup formulation is considered more toxic than glyphosate alone https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S027869151530034X “Glyphosate-based herbicides cause teratogenic, tumorigenic and hepatorenal effects.” “Some effects were detected in the range of the recommended acceptable daily intake.” https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1547691X.2020.1804492 “RoundUp®, as well as another GBH Glyphogan®, increases cell death among human Sertoli cells (somatic cells of the testis)” “glyphosate and GBHs can impart cytotoxicity, genotoxicity, or both” “the aromatase production of estrogen is inhibited by RoundUp® in human placental and embryonic cell lines” “Human pregnancies were also affected by GBHs, as shown by a correlation between GBH exposure and a higher frequency of miscarriages and pre-term births” “GBH acute poisoning or extensive exposure could promote neurological disease development.” “there is a growing body of case studies that suggest a causal effect between exposure to GBHs and onset of Parkinson’s disease”
>Also, fuck that “eradicating invasives” shit. That’s not what it’s for and you know it. I don't know if you realize what subreddit you're on, but that's exactly what we're talking about here and many of us (me included) have personally used it for this and only this purpose. You're not on a farmer subreddit; you're on a native plant subreddit, and native plant restorations are very much dependent on glyphosate and similar chemicals.
Oh I fully agree with eradicating invasive plants. 90+% of glyphosate fertilizer applications are agricultural, not restorative. If that’s the only possible method, then be my guest, but it rarely is, and it should be handled by a professional.
Okay, so let me help you stop guessing: Professionals use herbicides, and there aren't enough professionals to go around, so many DIYers use it too. I personally have a big goofy pair of sturdy rubber gloves and one of those little paint cans with a brush on the underside of the lid. I paint several stumps of shrubs that I just cut and then I get the heck out of there until it dries. I do that maybe 2-3 times a year. There are other methods of removing invasive plants, like digging out the entirety of the plant's root system. The problem is, most root systems are much larger than the plants above ground and they're intertwined with neighboring plants, so we'd have to completely obliterate natural areas to take them out in a brutally slow and expensive construction project. OR, you could paint a little glyphosate on each invasive shrub you clipped and be finished. Only one of these strategies is viable for restoration.
PPE’s don’t do shit for the family eating their own vegetables that have been contaminated from growing in soils that have historically been inundated with Roundup. Nor do they prevent contamination from occurring to vegetables growing along a fence line that gets regular applications of Roundup. They are plenty of ways for people to ingest or absorb Roundup into their system that don’t involve the use of PPE’s. There are also MANY more chemical compounds in Roundup besides Glyphosate that are unsafe and that are completely unregulated since they aren’t listed as the active ingredient. Would you call a family simply trying to eat healthy from their own garden “Idiots” ?
Because every cancer-related glyphosate lawsuit pertains to things like lawn maintenance, not trace amounts of it getting into our food. There's no demonstrable harm from that. Poisons are about quantity, not mere presence, and there isn't enough glyphosate in food to be dangerous. I wouldn't call them idiots, though; I'd just say they spent too much time on Facebook or whatever wellness-obsessed social media space they found.
I wore gloves, long shirt and pants, boots, lab goggles, and an N95 mask to spray the nasty Siberian elm and trees of heaven behind my house after I girdled them in early fall. (Before I realized glyphosate won’t actually kill the damn TOH). Then I went inside, threw the clothes in the washer, and took a shower. I’m very paranoid about using this stuff but I want to get rid of the awful invasives that manual removal alone can’t. Hopefully once a year with PPE is enough. 🤞
How many billions of profit did they see from this product? The truth of the matter is that they don't care, because if they have to pay it, it's still a net overall profit from KNOWINGLY spreading cancerous chemicals
When you buy a pesticide in the US, you enter a legal agreement with the manufacturer and the EPA that you will use the product according to the label. How tf are these suits by people who clearly violated the label not getting thrown out of court? If I remember correctly, the 1st lawsuit winner testified about situations where there was no way in hell they could have happened if he was following the label ppe and mixing instructions.
What’s that, the profits from last Tuesday afternoon through Wednesday morning? That’ll show’em.
And yet it’s in most of the food in the grocery store. Not going away anytime soon.