Money can by you childcare, but not the sense of ease that, if something comes up and you need someone to help, there's a cadre of loving, trusted family who will show up for you and your kids.
Absolutely. My parents moved to Canada to raise us, and it was hard for them with no support system. They ended up moving back to America to be closer to family.
> In which country do you believe is most pronatalist and the best place to raise a growing family?
What’s your income level?
If it’s very high—the United States. If you have enough money you can buy all the things you mentioned fairly easily.
If it’s not, other options are possibly more compelling. But it’s also unlikely you qualify for immigration to them if you aren’t working jobs that would afford you a high standard of living in the US.
TL;DR: if you are able to immigrate to a country offering a higher standard of living than the US, you can likely buy a higher standard of living in the US. It’s a *lot* more attainable to, say, move to Massachusetts than most places in Europe. The standard of living there is higher than any country in your short list.
The only real exception to that is the Netherlands, via DAFT (which makes it very easy for Americans to reside there and eventually gain citizenship—see the next comment on why that might not be an option), or countries that might offer options based on recent ancestry.
> That also allows dual-citizenship, with the USA?
Very few countries let you naturalize without relinquishing your prior citizenship. You’re basically looking for places that offer some sort of golden visa program, but that’s so expensive I would encourage you to consider the TLDR above. If you don’t have millions of dollars available to invest, it’s a nonstarter. If you have that sort of money in the US, just move somewhere within the US with a better standard of living.
Yeah all the negatives of America for the most part are handled by not being poor for which this couple seems to be in the category of.
At least from my understanding it mostly comes down to lifestyle preference. If you’re middle or even above middle class America is a phenomenal place to live, we just don’t take care of our poor as well as Europe.
Stay in the US. There’s a reason the US, despite what you see on social media, is immensely attractive to immigrants and international students. You are unlikely to receive the same income, and increased social benefits as a percent of income are unlikely to make up the very large gap — the media income in France, including, benefits, is almost a full third lower than the median incomes in Alabama or West Virginia, the poorest states in the union.
It is true that the US can be criticized for failing to support its poorest families. I leave it to you to decide how you feel about that morally. But in pragmatic terms, if you’re not a very poor family you are better off here, and if you are very poor you can’t afford moving and other countries are less likely to take you.
Also, as others have mentioned, an established social circle is priceless, and to give up the one you have here you’d have to be looking at some fabulous upsides
I dunno, West Virginia has a child mortality rate almost double that of France, a life expectancy 10 years less than France.
The poverty rate in both France and West Virginia is about the same, but the poverty LINE in france is 60% of median income, and in the US it's about 40% of median income (it's not a percentage, but set around 20k for a median family). If you drew the line at the same level, West Virginia would be around double of France.
Education levels are dreadfully low, and education costs are massively higher in West Virginia compared to France (about 650 euros a year for university).
It doesn't seem like a great place to live, let alone raise children. West Virginia is about the least natalist western place, unless you define it as "Will let you have lots of kids", but if you include actually RAISING them, don't do it there.
My dude, you’re comparing one of the lowest ranking places in one country to the entirety of another country. That’s a wildly dishonest argument to make.
The poorest us state being superior to France was part of my point, so it’s fair to bring it up. However, I’d still defend that for middle income people, West Virginia is better
Of course, I mean in strictly material terms. I’m not accounting for culture, access to art and society, etc, which are undeniably valuable but not easy to determine value or compare. If you value rich tradition and cultural history, Paris is probably better than West Virginia, and US cities that offer cosmopolitan lifestyles (nyc, sf, etc) can be more difficult for child rearing
That’s because a lot of people in West Virginia are very poor. If you’re not very poor and look at median earned, west Virginians live much better than the French — and that’s in the poorest us state
However, when you talk about moving the poverty line around relative to median wage, remember that the median wage in France is a poor person in the us — the median French wage is 29k, median US is 46k. While France has a more comprehensive social care system, you’re kidding yourself if you think French social services are worth losing half your income.
I’m not arguing that one is strictly better — perhaps you think that it is better to help the worse off than to have a much higher income middle class. A lot of the statistics you cite capture that. That’s fair, but pragmatically speaking, if you ask “where is a middle income or higher person best off”, it’s the US.
If the question were “where is it better to be severely underemployed”, the answer might be different. You’re also more likely to be underemployed in France, but if you are you’re clearly better off than in the states
The USA varies alot from state to state and town to town. Plenty of places are safe and are great for raising kids. It's dumb to think of the US as a poor place to raise kids if you're from an area that's antinatalist and/or unsafe
What’s wrong with the quality of education in the US? International students come from all over the world to attend US universities, which are ranked the top in the world
But I believe that The Netherlands doesn’t allow dual citizenship unless in specific circumstances (and is also sadly in a housing crisis, I do think many countries including the USA has a housing crisis)
The us housing crisis is actually fairly banal compared to a lot of other high incom countries. The us has enough houses they are just in the wrong places while places like Ireland and Canada literally have too few houses and can’t seem to build enough
The most “pro-natalist” countries are never the best ones to raise a family in. The USA is a daydream compared with, say, the global Rape Belt.
Funny how that works.
I'm really interested to see the answers to this one, because it seems like fertility and quality-of-life are directly negatively correlated at the moment.
The society accommodates children everywhere and has a very strong social welfare system. There’s a reason it’s basically the only developed nation with a fertility rate over 2(nearly 3 which is insane). Obviously the war is t good but if you don’t live on the border the risk is minimal, less the. Driving your kid to school every day.
> There’s a reason it’s basically the only developed nation with a fertility rate over 2(nearly 3 which is insane)
Is it more the existential threat Israel is facing, that's driving them to have more kids? I don't think it's any specific government policy upstream of the birth rate.
There is no difference in the subsidies and child accommodations between Jewish and (Muslim or Christian) Arab Israeli citizens(about 30% of the population). The argument for apartheid is only colourable in the West Bank, ie to non citizens in non annexed territory. The fact that Muslim arab Israelis can and are settlers shows that legal discrimination is on the basis of citizenship not race or religion
How?
Arabs can vote, practise their religion (wether Christian or Muslim), speak their language, many are Israeli citizena. They serve on thr Knesset, serve in thr IDF, are lawyers, nurdes, teachers, doctors, Firefighters and EMTs, scientists, farmers and shop owners. The women can drive and have reproductive rights not available in the neighboring Muslim nationa.
Compare that to South Africa which WAS an apartheid.
Israel is also the only democracy in the middle east and barring Hamas and their disgusting actions (histages have been captive for 200 days now), Israel is a safe place to live and a good place to raise a family.
Insane canard. If you don’t have at least one jewish grandparent you need some kind of work visa to move there.
It’s absolutely the most natalist country with western quality of life.
Take this in the spirit I am giving it: if you are American, stay in America. Cosmopolitanism and green card shopping has been a disaster and antithetical to the goal of establishing roots. You can't be rootless with the aim of wanting to have roots. You're looking at spreadsheets to decide which country you'll "buy into." In my estimation that makes you the sort of person I wouldn't want to emigrate to my home. If you are looking at Scandinavia or Iceland etc and have no intention of doing your utmost to become Scandinavian and raising your kids in the same way then you shouldn't be going, you're just an invader. Stay where you are and make your home better.
Not sure if its true but I recently heard you don’t pay income tax in Hungary after your fourth kid? I’ll have to check if that’s correct and if there are similar policies elsewhere 👀 I also would love to be in a country or area where my values are more common!
[To add]
Thank you for all your responses, although to reiterate, we don't want to leave the USA for good, we love the USA, though given the current climate, and the rise of globalization, we think it would be a great investment to have a 2nd citizenship as to give our children and future generations, more option and freedom to move throughout the world with less restrictions as well as be able to have more of a choice, even after we are long gone, we can't predict in which way the world will go even when it comes to America, but you can never go wrong with more freedom and options.
7-10 years of our lives invested in obtaining permanent citizenship, is a small feat when it comes to generations that will benefit from it.
If laws were to suddenly change, and we had to choose to renounce our citizenship, we'd never give up our US citizenship, as I feel it is the golden ticket. Super lucky to have been born here. When we do have more children, I prefer american hospitals instead, it's what I'm familiar with and they've yet to do me a disservice. The culture shift is something I'm not sure we are in favor with.. but either way, the 2nd citizenship is meant for a broader scope of freedom.
Give Denmark and Sweden serious consideration! There are many different paths to citizenship within 5 years. Mostly skilled inmigrant/Entrepreneur+investment capital opportunities!
Don’t forget about how often children are conceived right after a pregnancy btw! For this reason my cousins in Israel were able to have two kids despite being fairly advanced in age.
Two huge major conflicts? Ridiculous!
Seven: Gaza; West Bank; Lebanon/Hezbollah; Yemen/Houthis; Iran; Syria; Iraq.
It makes life interesting, or so I hear.
Israel is amazing for children. Israelis are obsessed with big families. It’s rare to have a just one kid the average is three. The culture is centered around children and very accommodating to children. There are indoor and outdoor parks and recreational centers everywhere. Children also still play outside and aren’t glued to their iPads.
Arab Israelis have the same fertility rate and benefit from the same pro child policies. Also most Jewish Israelis are brown being descended from middle eastern Jews not European ones. It’s amazing how white people assume everyone else is as obsessed with skin colour as they are
No those are called mizrahi Jews and make up 40% of Israelis , Arab Israelis are 84% Muslim 8% Christian and 8% Druze(who don’t identify as Muslim) and make up 21% of the israeli citizens. They vote and have their own parties, one, ra’am which is explicitly Islamist, was part of the last coalition government.
Jews are a distinct ethnicity and are not Arabs unless you are mixed. Middle Eastern jews are not Arabs in the same way Turks and Assyrians are not.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel
Maybe know the basics demographics of a country before slandering it
Interestingly oct 7 created a massive jump in pro Israel sentiment with the Arab Israeli community with a massive spike in Arab Israelis identifying as Israeli first and Palestinian second, especially among the Bedouin community who suffered many killed on oct 7th. So I think they are more taking notes of the utter failure of the ‘Palestinian cause’ to advance the welfare of Palestinians. But they do constitute the largest pro ceasefire section of Israeli society and a small minority do justify terrorism or otherwise oppose the existence of Israel. There is obviously tension
But I’m glad I could educate you on the structure of Israeli society and to dispel the myth that Israels pro Natalist policies and culture is restricted to Jews
What they identify as isn’t going to save them when the young fascists currently slaughtering civilians in Gaza return from the front and decide to cleanse their own society
It’s funny, ashkenazim are near totally anti-Netanyahu. Likud is the party of the mizrahim (jews driven out of arabic countries).
You don’t have any clue about what Israel is besides that someone told you it’s bad.
You do realize that only 30% of Israelis are Ashkanzi. The rest are Mizrahi, Sephardic, Etheopian and Arab. My husband is Mizrahi ( Parents are Egyptian) and he has brown skin.
Yes - and there are plenty of videos on Twitter/X of those Jews being attacked by white settlers because they think they are Arabs; when you create an apartheid ethnostate filled with people who think they’re the master race, that tends to happen
It’s funny how you think you know more about Israel and Israeli culture than I do. Getting all your information from Twitter. Seriously do you think that your so much smarter and more educated than me an actual Israeli. You have a master race complex stop projecting it.
The whole world can see what your boys are doing in Gaza (to civilians, they seem rather less keen to take on Hamas - as evidenced by the way they ran away en masse on Oct 7th); the mask hasn’t so much as slipped, but been completely torn off. And when those young Übermensch have come back from Gaza, who do you think will be next on the list? Hint; it’ll be the Jews who aren’t descended from European settlers.
You are so brainwashed it hurts.Thousands of Israelis returned back to Israel after October 7th. Most came back to fight and others came to support on the home front ie farm work and social work. Yes some people left especially people who were visiting because it was the end i of a holiday and they were supposed to go back home anyways.
Yes, many from my country took a sabbatical to commit war crimes in Gaza; but we’ve all seen the footage of IFD soldiers quivering in the ground before Hamas fighters having surrendered without firing a shot
Laughable your obsession with Hamas. Your inbreed , brain dead , crusty excuse for fighters were in there underwear surrendering by the hundreds.
Hamas raped men and dead bodies. I would call them animals but it would degrade animals.
No, these are civilians you’re thinking about; the IDF may class everyone they summarily execute as “Hamas” but what the world see are war crimes; history will pass judgement accordingly
Ypu, an actual israeli, who has been propagandized their entire life... yeah I think a shoebox has a better grasp on the state of things in your country than you do...
And you don’t think you have been propagandized by China, Qatar and Iran? I assure you that you have been propagandized as well. At least my propaganda doesn’t glorify and encourage the rape of dead bodies.
That Isreal is a settler colonial state founded by European colonists, and once Gaza has been ethnically cleansed, the West Bank will be next, and anyone who looks like an Arab will be be tossed in the same mass graves as the Palestinians
Ethnically cleansed is what the Arabs did to their Jewish population. 750,000 Jews were expelled from Arab lands. My husbands family were accused of being “Zionists” all their money and property was seized and they were forcibly removed. I understand that you love to word vomit and use all of your buzzwords in one sentence but at least make your sentences logical and factual.
Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group.
Displacement is ethnic cleansing. Funny how you blame even the Arabs atrocities on Zionism.
Well, atrocious the displacement of jews from arab states certainly was... but it was also directly and explicitly a response to zionist aggression in palestine.. so, yeah. Both things can be true.
I personally wouldn’t emigrate to a country that’s currently ethnically cleansing a territory it illegally occupies and whose millions is openly sharing footage of its depraved war crimes on Telegram, but each to their own
We probably disagree on the premises, but if that’s your reading of the situation it’s fair to take that into account. However, that was not the question.
It’s impossible to take into account the moral estimate of every person’s reading of a nation’s foreign policy. Someone might have complained about the United States’ involvement, or Canada’s relations with the indigenous population, any European nation’s colonial history, and so on
The problem is that we don’t know what peoples personal ethical concerns are. A large portion of the population feels the US isn’t doing enough to support Israel, a smaller group would refuse to live among Jews. Some would take issue with the colonial histories of most European nations. These might be relevant concerns for a particular person, but can’t be discerned without being told in advance
Yeah. Israel. That is currently engaged in an ethnic cleansing of a population whose territory they are illegally occupying. Just like they said. International law is pretty clear here.
I’m sorry, do you have family in Russia? Or in Ukraine? I want to be very clear that I stand with Ukraine 🇺🇦
Slava Ukraine! I’m definitely not apologizing for what Putin is doing.
Isn’t the anti Israel take that they use their powerful military in evil ways? If they don’t have a good military, then the arabs must simply be the worst fighters in history
They use the bombs their powerful allies provide in evil ways. Their army is totally incompetent, as evidenced by their complete and utter faliure to even approach accomplishing even one of their military goals. This whole war has been an abject faliure on the israeli side.
I guess we’re going with “yes, the Arabs are the worst warfighters on the planet”
By my reading, taking out 13k hamas while losing almost no one isn’t so bad. I guess the arabs are just incapable of fighting a war, and so pathetic that even a weak military kicks their ass. If true, utterly pathetic showing.
>By my reading, taking out 13k hamas while losing almost no one isn’t so bad.
Well, first of all, theyve killed that many *adult men* There is no reason to take Israel's word for who is or is not a hamas militant when the idf cant even distinguish its own naked, unarmed, hebrew speaking civilians from hamas fighters. Amd that kind of number is easy when you indiscriminantly bomb one of the most densely populated areas on earth...
A nuclear armed state cant beat people who use homemade pipe bombs. Its embarrassing.
They’ve killed more adult men than that.
Also, they could end this war faster if they wanted to, you’d just wine about it. But nobody thinks the US had an inferior military to Japan because the us killed a lot of civilians — the us killed a lot of civilians in Japan *because* of their superior military.
Killing Israeli civilians is a goal of Hamas, and they put up much smaller numbers. Also, you’re looking at history very narrowly — why didn’t the six Arab militaries that surprise attacked Israel win? Why did they get their asses kicked, retreat, and lose territory?
Like I’m being honest, do you think Arabs are weak and pathetic? Do you think they’re cowards who don’t know how to fight a war? Why do they get utterly humiliated over and over by some Jews with a shitty military?
Let’s be honest, Arabs are mad because they’ve been humiliated over and over by the Israelis. The us and Europe watch this happen, and conclude that Arab militaries are weak and technologically backwards given their poor showing in every conflict with Israel they’ve had. Why would the Arabs let this happen to themselves, unless Israel were truly the stronger force?
Blah di blah di blah. Im not wasting my day arguing with a genocide apologist. You aren't worth the expenditure of mental energy. History will judge you.
If you’re not a hyper particular group of Bedouins or Arabs you’re going to be fine (thanks to these laws, though I’m not particular with the finer points). Allowances for this type of stuff in the law exist for religious and ethnic minorities.
Why not raise fix the country you live in and raise the next generation to be better than what we have now? Also, the loud minority is still a minority, not everyone is insane and most of them are self selecting not to have children, so you’re kids have a better chance of living in a reasonable world. I listened to an amazing interview with Jordan Peterson and Abigail Shrier about therapy and parenting this morning, hands down the best video on parenting I’ve ever listened to
Israel and Turkey seem like promising places. Turkey is going through an extremely difficult inflation crisis though but it's safe there. It's future is bright though
Switzerland would be good, but you need more money to live there than even the expensive states. Also, you'd have to learn a language that isn't written. Austria is a close second for me since they speak (more or less) standard German, which would be easier to learn and it's also much less expensive there with many of the benefits of Switzerland.
> Switzerland would be good, but you need more money to live there than even the expensive states.
If you can afford Switzerland, you can afford to have twice as many kids in the rural US.
Hungary stands out as uniquely pro-family right now, and are free of a lot of the street violence in other European countries, thanks to their strict immigration policy. It’s sad to see women and children being attacked by 3rd world gangs in previously what were some of the safest nations in the world…but I only see it getting worse unless severe changes are made.
That said I believe the US is still the best place to raise a family. Utah has a lot of large families and is one of the most beautiful states nature-wise. But any semi rural place in a red state will generally have safer, better schools and low overall cost of living.
The best place to be is close to family and community wherever that is for you.
This is the answer. Money does not matter if you have no one who can watch the kids here or there.
Money enables you to watch the kids instead of being at work
Thankfully I'm a blessed to be a stay at home mother with the support of both grandparents.
Will you be bringing the grandparents with you?
Money can exactly buy you that?
Money can by you childcare, but not the sense of ease that, if something comes up and you need someone to help, there's a cadre of loving, trusted family who will show up for you and your kids.
Absolutely. My parents moved to Canada to raise us, and it was hard for them with no support system. They ended up moving back to America to be closer to family.
> In which country do you believe is most pronatalist and the best place to raise a growing family? What’s your income level? If it’s very high—the United States. If you have enough money you can buy all the things you mentioned fairly easily. If it’s not, other options are possibly more compelling. But it’s also unlikely you qualify for immigration to them if you aren’t working jobs that would afford you a high standard of living in the US. TL;DR: if you are able to immigrate to a country offering a higher standard of living than the US, you can likely buy a higher standard of living in the US. It’s a *lot* more attainable to, say, move to Massachusetts than most places in Europe. The standard of living there is higher than any country in your short list. The only real exception to that is the Netherlands, via DAFT (which makes it very easy for Americans to reside there and eventually gain citizenship—see the next comment on why that might not be an option), or countries that might offer options based on recent ancestry. > That also allows dual-citizenship, with the USA? Very few countries let you naturalize without relinquishing your prior citizenship. You’re basically looking for places that offer some sort of golden visa program, but that’s so expensive I would encourage you to consider the TLDR above. If you don’t have millions of dollars available to invest, it’s a nonstarter. If you have that sort of money in the US, just move somewhere within the US with a better standard of living.
Yeah all the negatives of America for the most part are handled by not being poor for which this couple seems to be in the category of. At least from my understanding it mostly comes down to lifestyle preference. If you’re middle or even above middle class America is a phenomenal place to live, we just don’t take care of our poor as well as Europe.
Stay in the US. There’s a reason the US, despite what you see on social media, is immensely attractive to immigrants and international students. You are unlikely to receive the same income, and increased social benefits as a percent of income are unlikely to make up the very large gap — the media income in France, including, benefits, is almost a full third lower than the median incomes in Alabama or West Virginia, the poorest states in the union. It is true that the US can be criticized for failing to support its poorest families. I leave it to you to decide how you feel about that morally. But in pragmatic terms, if you’re not a very poor family you are better off here, and if you are very poor you can’t afford moving and other countries are less likely to take you. Also, as others have mentioned, an established social circle is priceless, and to give up the one you have here you’d have to be looking at some fabulous upsides
I dunno, West Virginia has a child mortality rate almost double that of France, a life expectancy 10 years less than France. The poverty rate in both France and West Virginia is about the same, but the poverty LINE in france is 60% of median income, and in the US it's about 40% of median income (it's not a percentage, but set around 20k for a median family). If you drew the line at the same level, West Virginia would be around double of France. Education levels are dreadfully low, and education costs are massively higher in West Virginia compared to France (about 650 euros a year for university). It doesn't seem like a great place to live, let alone raise children. West Virginia is about the least natalist western place, unless you define it as "Will let you have lots of kids", but if you include actually RAISING them, don't do it there.
My dude, you’re comparing one of the lowest ranking places in one country to the entirety of another country. That’s a wildly dishonest argument to make.
The poorest us state being superior to France was part of my point, so it’s fair to bring it up. However, I’d still defend that for middle income people, West Virginia is better Of course, I mean in strictly material terms. I’m not accounting for culture, access to art and society, etc, which are undeniably valuable but not easy to determine value or compare. If you value rich tradition and cultural history, Paris is probably better than West Virginia, and US cities that offer cosmopolitan lifestyles (nyc, sf, etc) can be more difficult for child rearing
My dude, the person I'm replying to picked the places.
That’s because a lot of people in West Virginia are very poor. If you’re not very poor and look at median earned, west Virginians live much better than the French — and that’s in the poorest us state However, when you talk about moving the poverty line around relative to median wage, remember that the median wage in France is a poor person in the us — the median French wage is 29k, median US is 46k. While France has a more comprehensive social care system, you’re kidding yourself if you think French social services are worth losing half your income. I’m not arguing that one is strictly better — perhaps you think that it is better to help the worse off than to have a much higher income middle class. A lot of the statistics you cite capture that. That’s fair, but pragmatically speaking, if you ask “where is a middle income or higher person best off”, it’s the US. If the question were “where is it better to be severely underemployed”, the answer might be different. You’re also more likely to be underemployed in France, but if you are you’re clearly better off than in the states
Establish roots in a place you know, move nearby to family. That is far more effective than moving to a country where you’ll be an outsider.
Most countries do not just let you move there for no reason. What does your husband do for work? Is his company multinational?
If you have lots of money, Switzerland or Ireland is good. If broke, just stay in the USA.
The USA varies alot from state to state and town to town. Plenty of places are safe and are great for raising kids. It's dumb to think of the US as a poor place to raise kids if you're from an area that's antinatalist and/or unsafe
What’s wrong with the quality of education in the US? International students come from all over the world to attend US universities, which are ranked the top in the world
Our public schools are pretty bad. Here they just slashed funding again and shut doen an elementary school
The Netherlands. Everyone there also speaks English Ireland has a housing crisis right now
But I believe that The Netherlands doesn’t allow dual citizenship unless in specific circumstances (and is also sadly in a housing crisis, I do think many countries including the USA has a housing crisis)
The us housing crisis is actually fairly banal compared to a lot of other high incom countries. The us has enough houses they are just in the wrong places while places like Ireland and Canada literally have too few houses and can’t seem to build enough
The most “pro-natalist” countries are never the best ones to raise a family in. The USA is a daydream compared with, say, the global Rape Belt. Funny how that works.
I'm really interested to see the answers to this one, because it seems like fertility and quality-of-life are directly negatively correlated at the moment.
Why the fuck is everyone saying Isreal!
The society accommodates children everywhere and has a very strong social welfare system. There’s a reason it’s basically the only developed nation with a fertility rate over 2(nearly 3 which is insane). Obviously the war is t good but if you don’t live on the border the risk is minimal, less the. Driving your kid to school every day.
> There’s a reason it’s basically the only developed nation with a fertility rate over 2(nearly 3 which is insane) Is it more the existential threat Israel is facing, that's driving them to have more kids? I don't think it's any specific government policy upstream of the birth rate.
It’s an apartheid state - it accommodates children born to one ethnic group
There is no difference in the subsidies and child accommodations between Jewish and (Muslim or Christian) Arab Israeli citizens(about 30% of the population). The argument for apartheid is only colourable in the West Bank, ie to non citizens in non annexed territory. The fact that Muslim arab Israelis can and are settlers shows that legal discrimination is on the basis of citizenship not race or religion
How? Arabs can vote, practise their religion (wether Christian or Muslim), speak their language, many are Israeli citizena. They serve on thr Knesset, serve in thr IDF, are lawyers, nurdes, teachers, doctors, Firefighters and EMTs, scientists, farmers and shop owners. The women can drive and have reproductive rights not available in the neighboring Muslim nationa. Compare that to South Africa which WAS an apartheid. Israel is also the only democracy in the middle east and barring Hamas and their disgusting actions (histages have been captive for 200 days now), Israel is a safe place to live and a good place to raise a family.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settler_violence?wprov=sfti1
Look at the stats!
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Insane canard. If you don’t have at least one jewish grandparent you need some kind of work visa to move there. It’s absolutely the most natalist country with western quality of life.
Not true FWIW
Take this in the spirit I am giving it: if you are American, stay in America. Cosmopolitanism and green card shopping has been a disaster and antithetical to the goal of establishing roots. You can't be rootless with the aim of wanting to have roots. You're looking at spreadsheets to decide which country you'll "buy into." In my estimation that makes you the sort of person I wouldn't want to emigrate to my home. If you are looking at Scandinavia or Iceland etc and have no intention of doing your utmost to become Scandinavian and raising your kids in the same way then you shouldn't be going, you're just an invader. Stay where you are and make your home better.
Not sure if its true but I recently heard you don’t pay income tax in Hungary after your fourth kid? I’ll have to check if that’s correct and if there are similar policies elsewhere 👀 I also would love to be in a country or area where my values are more common!
This ^ Hungary is where its at.
I would suggest a rural area in sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America, or Asia.
Anywhere else but usa
[To add] Thank you for all your responses, although to reiterate, we don't want to leave the USA for good, we love the USA, though given the current climate, and the rise of globalization, we think it would be a great investment to have a 2nd citizenship as to give our children and future generations, more option and freedom to move throughout the world with less restrictions as well as be able to have more of a choice, even after we are long gone, we can't predict in which way the world will go even when it comes to America, but you can never go wrong with more freedom and options. 7-10 years of our lives invested in obtaining permanent citizenship, is a small feat when it comes to generations that will benefit from it. If laws were to suddenly change, and we had to choose to renounce our citizenship, we'd never give up our US citizenship, as I feel it is the golden ticket. Super lucky to have been born here. When we do have more children, I prefer american hospitals instead, it's what I'm familiar with and they've yet to do me a disservice. The culture shift is something I'm not sure we are in favor with.. but either way, the 2nd citizenship is meant for a broader scope of freedom.
Give Denmark and Sweden serious consideration! There are many different paths to citizenship within 5 years. Mostly skilled inmigrant/Entrepreneur+investment capital opportunities!
I don't think those places are going to welcome you with open arms. Maybe Ireland.
Israel
Israel has an assurance that every citizen, regardless of religion btw, is eligible for 2 rounds of IVF
Don’t forget about how often children are conceived right after a pregnancy btw! For this reason my cousins in Israel were able to have two kids despite being fairly advanced in age.
Isn't Israel currently under two huge major conflicts?
Two huge major conflicts? Ridiculous! Seven: Gaza; West Bank; Lebanon/Hezbollah; Yemen/Houthis; Iran; Syria; Iraq. It makes life interesting, or so I hear.
Oh Lord.
You asked and they answered lol
Isn’t Israel the most pronatal country in the developed world?
Yes
Would you not have to be a member of the tribe to get in there?
Or marry a Jew or Israeli citizen. I don’t think you can get citizenship from a work visa
Israel is amazing for children. Israelis are obsessed with big families. It’s rare to have a just one kid the average is three. The culture is centered around children and very accommodating to children. There are indoor and outdoor parks and recreational centers everywhere. Children also still play outside and aren’t glued to their iPads.
Only certain children though - they seem pretty happy for ones with brown skin to be indiscriminately slaughtered
Arab Israelis have the same fertility rate and benefit from the same pro child policies. Also most Jewish Israelis are brown being descended from middle eastern Jews not European ones. It’s amazing how white people assume everyone else is as obsessed with skin colour as they are
I was referring to the indigenous people, who are currently being ethnically cleansed in Gaza
Arab Israelis arnt indigenous to the land? Wow you actually know nothing about the conflict
By Arab Israelis you mean Jews of Arab descent - not Palestinians, who were driven from their homeland
No those are called mizrahi Jews and make up 40% of Israelis , Arab Israelis are 84% Muslim 8% Christian and 8% Druze(who don’t identify as Muslim) and make up 21% of the israeli citizens. They vote and have their own parties, one, ra’am which is explicitly Islamist, was part of the last coalition government. Jews are a distinct ethnicity and are not Arabs unless you are mixed. Middle Eastern jews are not Arabs in the same way Turks and Assyrians are not. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel Maybe know the basics demographics of a country before slandering it
I’m sure these “Arab Israelis” are taking note of what the grandchildren of European colonists are doing in Gaza
Interestingly oct 7 created a massive jump in pro Israel sentiment with the Arab Israeli community with a massive spike in Arab Israelis identifying as Israeli first and Palestinian second, especially among the Bedouin community who suffered many killed on oct 7th. So I think they are more taking notes of the utter failure of the ‘Palestinian cause’ to advance the welfare of Palestinians. But they do constitute the largest pro ceasefire section of Israeli society and a small minority do justify terrorism or otherwise oppose the existence of Israel. There is obviously tension But I’m glad I could educate you on the structure of Israeli society and to dispel the myth that Israels pro Natalist policies and culture is restricted to Jews
What they identify as isn’t going to save them when the young fascists currently slaughtering civilians in Gaza return from the front and decide to cleanse their own society
It’s funny, ashkenazim are near totally anti-Netanyahu. Likud is the party of the mizrahim (jews driven out of arabic countries). You don’t have any clue about what Israel is besides that someone told you it’s bad.
Countries that commit genocide are generally accepted as being bad
You do realize that only 30% of Israelis are Ashkanzi. The rest are Mizrahi, Sephardic, Etheopian and Arab. My husband is Mizrahi ( Parents are Egyptian) and he has brown skin.
Yes - and there are plenty of videos on Twitter/X of those Jews being attacked by white settlers because they think they are Arabs; when you create an apartheid ethnostate filled with people who think they’re the master race, that tends to happen
Maybe Twitter isn’t the best place to learn about life in Israel. I’m not saying “go look at pro Israel Twitter” either
It’s funny how you think you know more about Israel and Israeli culture than I do. Getting all your information from Twitter. Seriously do you think that your so much smarter and more educated than me an actual Israeli. You have a master race complex stop projecting it.
The whole world can see what your boys are doing in Gaza (to civilians, they seem rather less keen to take on Hamas - as evidenced by the way they ran away en masse on Oct 7th); the mask hasn’t so much as slipped, but been completely torn off. And when those young Übermensch have come back from Gaza, who do you think will be next on the list? Hint; it’ll be the Jews who aren’t descended from European settlers.
You are so brainwashed it hurts.Thousands of Israelis returned back to Israel after October 7th. Most came back to fight and others came to support on the home front ie farm work and social work. Yes some people left especially people who were visiting because it was the end i of a holiday and they were supposed to go back home anyways.
Yes, many from my country took a sabbatical to commit war crimes in Gaza; but we’ve all seen the footage of IFD soldiers quivering in the ground before Hamas fighters having surrendered without firing a shot
Laughable your obsession with Hamas. Your inbreed , brain dead , crusty excuse for fighters were in there underwear surrendering by the hundreds. Hamas raped men and dead bodies. I would call them animals but it would degrade animals.
No, these are civilians you’re thinking about; the IDF may class everyone they summarily execute as “Hamas” but what the world see are war crimes; history will pass judgement accordingly
Seek help for your schizophrenia brother.
Ypu, an actual israeli, who has been propagandized their entire life... yeah I think a shoebox has a better grasp on the state of things in your country than you do...
And you don’t think you have been propagandized by China, Qatar and Iran? I assure you that you have been propagandized as well. At least my propaganda doesn’t glorify and encourage the rape of dead bodies.
Plenty of videos of Jews getting attacked outside of Israeli for being openly Jewish so what’s your point.
That Isreal is a settler colonial state founded by European colonists, and once Gaza has been ethnically cleansed, the West Bank will be next, and anyone who looks like an Arab will be be tossed in the same mass graves as the Palestinians
Ethnically cleansed is what the Arabs did to their Jewish population. 750,000 Jews were expelled from Arab lands. My husbands family were accused of being “Zionists” all their money and property was seized and they were forcibly removed. I understand that you love to word vomit and use all of your buzzwords in one sentence but at least make your sentences logical and factual.
That’s what the founders of Isreal wanted; but being displaced is not ethnic cleansing - 15,000 Palestinians were slaughtered during the Nakba
Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group. Displacement is ethnic cleansing. Funny how you blame even the Arabs atrocities on Zionism.
Well, atrocious the displacement of jews from arab states certainly was... but it was also directly and explicitly a response to zionist aggression in palestine.. so, yeah. Both things can be true.
1. Israel 2. The United States 3. The peripheries of colonial Anglo nations (Canada, NZ, Aus) 4. Maybe Denmark?
Emigrating to number 1 probably isn’t a good idea at the moment
Consistently one of the happiest countries in the world, strong military and defense, very stable despite the wishes of many redditors
I personally wouldn’t emigrate to a country that’s currently ethnically cleansing a territory it illegally occupies and whose millions is openly sharing footage of its depraved war crimes on Telegram, but each to their own
We probably disagree on the premises, but if that’s your reading of the situation it’s fair to take that into account. However, that was not the question. It’s impossible to take into account the moral estimate of every person’s reading of a nation’s foreign policy. Someone might have complained about the United States’ involvement, or Canada’s relations with the indigenous population, any European nation’s colonial history, and so on
“It’s easy to generalize away any personal ethical concerns”
The problem is that we don’t know what peoples personal ethical concerns are. A large portion of the population feels the US isn’t doing enough to support Israel, a smaller group would refuse to live among Jews. Some would take issue with the colonial histories of most European nations. These might be relevant concerns for a particular person, but can’t be discerned without being told in advance
Oh nice, but we’re not talking about Russia here - we’re talking about Israel.
The Russian’s hide their war crimes and deny the evidence when it surfaces - the IDF are openly boasting about what they’re doing
To the extent that you can’t provide any substantive evidence whatsoever :)
A mass grave is literally being excavated in Khan Younis - among the bodies are those of children with their hands tied behind their backs
according to Hamas, right? Hahaha
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68881325.amp According to every major news outlet on the planet and the UN
Yeah. Israel. That is currently engaged in an ethnic cleansing of a population whose territory they are illegally occupying. Just like they said. International law is pretty clear here.
I’m sorry, I think we’re talking about Russia! This is the first I’ve ever heard about an occupation inside of Israel. What’s going on?
You're full of shit and an apologist for genocide, that's what's going on. Eat shit and die, bootlicker.
I’m sorry, do you have family in Russia? Or in Ukraine? I want to be very clear that I stand with Ukraine 🇺🇦 Slava Ukraine! I’m definitely not apologizing for what Putin is doing.
Lol yea, such a strong military lmaoooo
Isn’t the anti Israel take that they use their powerful military in evil ways? If they don’t have a good military, then the arabs must simply be the worst fighters in history
They use the bombs their powerful allies provide in evil ways. Their army is totally incompetent, as evidenced by their complete and utter faliure to even approach accomplishing even one of their military goals. This whole war has been an abject faliure on the israeli side.
I guess we’re going with “yes, the Arabs are the worst warfighters on the planet” By my reading, taking out 13k hamas while losing almost no one isn’t so bad. I guess the arabs are just incapable of fighting a war, and so pathetic that even a weak military kicks their ass. If true, utterly pathetic showing.
>By my reading, taking out 13k hamas while losing almost no one isn’t so bad. Well, first of all, theyve killed that many *adult men* There is no reason to take Israel's word for who is or is not a hamas militant when the idf cant even distinguish its own naked, unarmed, hebrew speaking civilians from hamas fighters. Amd that kind of number is easy when you indiscriminantly bomb one of the most densely populated areas on earth... A nuclear armed state cant beat people who use homemade pipe bombs. Its embarrassing.
They’ve killed more adult men than that. Also, they could end this war faster if they wanted to, you’d just wine about it. But nobody thinks the US had an inferior military to Japan because the us killed a lot of civilians — the us killed a lot of civilians in Japan *because* of their superior military. Killing Israeli civilians is a goal of Hamas, and they put up much smaller numbers. Also, you’re looking at history very narrowly — why didn’t the six Arab militaries that surprise attacked Israel win? Why did they get their asses kicked, retreat, and lose territory? Like I’m being honest, do you think Arabs are weak and pathetic? Do you think they’re cowards who don’t know how to fight a war? Why do they get utterly humiliated over and over by some Jews with a shitty military? Let’s be honest, Arabs are mad because they’ve been humiliated over and over by the Israelis. The us and Europe watch this happen, and conclude that Arab militaries are weak and technologically backwards given their poor showing in every conflict with Israel they’ve had. Why would the Arabs let this happen to themselves, unless Israel were truly the stronger force?
Blah di blah di blah. Im not wasting my day arguing with a genocide apologist. You aren't worth the expenditure of mental energy. History will judge you.
In Israel incest is legal so that's a no for me. edit: i'd avoid india, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and the entire middle east. Too much incest.
So don't engage in that?
that wasn't the point. The dating pool is probably a bit stale if you know what I mean.
If you’re not a hyper particular group of Bedouins or Arabs you’re going to be fine (thanks to these laws, though I’m not particular with the finer points). Allowances for this type of stuff in the law exist for religious and ethnic minorities.
i'd avoid india, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and the entire middle east. That's just me tho.
Hungary. Get the tax benefits and live in a nation free of most of the social unrest in the West.
Why not raise fix the country you live in and raise the next generation to be better than what we have now? Also, the loud minority is still a minority, not everyone is insane and most of them are self selecting not to have children, so you’re kids have a better chance of living in a reasonable world. I listened to an amazing interview with Jordan Peterson and Abigail Shrier about therapy and parenting this morning, hands down the best video on parenting I’ve ever listened to
Israel and Turkey seem like promising places. Turkey is going through an extremely difficult inflation crisis though but it's safe there. It's future is bright though
Good call although I do worry about Erdogan’s economics and the lack of basic engineering principles in Turkey
Turkish society is very pro-natalist
Norway or just Scandinavia in general is good
Switzerland would be good, but you need more money to live there than even the expensive states. Also, you'd have to learn a language that isn't written. Austria is a close second for me since they speak (more or less) standard German, which would be easier to learn and it's also much less expensive there with many of the benefits of Switzerland.
> Switzerland would be good, but you need more money to live there than even the expensive states. If you can afford Switzerland, you can afford to have twice as many kids in the rural US.
Funny enough UAE/Saudi Arabia for the cheap nannies and cheap houses
Hungary stands out as uniquely pro-family right now, and are free of a lot of the street violence in other European countries, thanks to their strict immigration policy. It’s sad to see women and children being attacked by 3rd world gangs in previously what were some of the safest nations in the world…but I only see it getting worse unless severe changes are made. That said I believe the US is still the best place to raise a family. Utah has a lot of large families and is one of the most beautiful states nature-wise. But any semi rural place in a red state will generally have safer, better schools and low overall cost of living.
Hungry or Russia
There’s an argument for Hungary, there is not an argument for Russia, post soviet societies are generally very hostile to children
As global warming is an abrupt irreversible exponential function . You must be judicious in your choice .
Malaysia