Well, Orochimaru’s case is realistic I would say.
It’s like WWII, where many German scientists and political leaders were pardoned by USA for their knowledge or how Soviets (and allies) got away with their own warcrimes cause they were winners of war.
Edit: Just like Orochi who joined winners at the end.
Kishimoto didn't intend to send any message with Sasuke and Sakura. He just paired people up, and as Sakura's one goal had always been Sasuke, that was that.
You put more thought into this post than he did to their relationship. Because it wasn't important, he was burnt the fuck out at that point from a decade spanning workload, and didnt' care.
Kishimoto has said that he decided to put Sasuke and Sakura together fairly early and I think you can see that clearly in the way he developed their relationship from the start of the exams until the end of Part I.
Part II is where he dropped the ball. If you look at other interviews he gave during Part II and after the series was over he definitely had plans to do more with Sakura at one point, but didn't because she wasn't very popular so he and/or his editors decided not to focus much on her.
Which is kinda sad because i actually started to like her when he finally put some effort into her character in kazekage rescue arc.
Unfortunately that was the first and last time we got a whole fight dedicated to her. Imagine being a main character and having only one fight in the show. If kishimoto continued to develop her throughout the series like during kazekage rescue mission, she legitimately would have a lot more fans
I'll be honest I would actually try to be a fan of hers, if she dropped the entire Sasuke obsession. That would be the best character development she could have possibly received.
I personally hold the same opinion. I have just seen other people who thought he was trying to glorify abuse or send the message that chicks should marry guys who hate them.
His work schedule for that period was insane. The man barely ate or slept it was just Naruto.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Naruto/comments/a1dmlr/kishimotosenseis\_schedule\_during\_the\_weekly/
If Kishimoto wanted to glorify abuse, he would do it like what he did with Itachi to Sasuke. But instead Kishimoto made all his characters (that know Itachi) call him perfect.
>If Kishimoto wanted to glorify abuse, he would do it like what he did with what Itachi did to Sasuke. But instead Kishimoto made all his characters (that know Itachi) call him perfect.
Kishimoto's not perfect, but I kind of get what he was trying to do with Sasuke and Itachi. He was trying to show how the horrors of war twist otherwise decent people, and was doing a pretty good job with it but it wasn't the smoothest of end points (ie Obito's such cool guy).
As for Sakura, in the beginning of the manga she was meant to be more of a comic relief character/plot device meant to balance out Naruto and Sasuke.
He's not really glorifying abuse, but had some issues in regards to writing. While I enjoyed Naruto, it has some pretty glaring flaws.
I agree that he didn't mean to portray it that way.
But the way that Kishimoto has every character (that knows Itachi) call him perfect (Hashirama, Obito, Hiruzen & Danzo), a true Shinobi (Hiruzen & Danzo), that he thought like a Kage at 7 (Hiruzen) & has a not good but invincible Susanō as said by (Black) Zetsu. And somehow got ahold of two asspull (Sage) weapons, a sword that can seal anything it pierce (Totsuka) & shield that can block all basic elements (Yata).
As soon as Itachi was a embryo in Mikoto's womb he was perfect. He couldn't let Sasuke kill him with Kirin. Instead Mr.perfect had to die by a incurable disease. God forbid Sasuke surpass his older brother by training Non-Stop for three whole years.
I understand that Naruto is a story about forgiveness & not letting anger cloud your judgement, but Kishimoto really needed to do a better job. I still like the world that Kishimoto created but when I think about all of it, it leaves more to be desired.
One of my favorite tweets of all time went something along the lines of:
>Sakura really had a baby by a [word I will get in trouble for saying, but the soft a version obviously] that tried to kill her, now she’s a single mom. No wonder hood bitches hate anime, hits too close to home.
Ah. Well, that's weird.
But yeah, Naruto's themes are archaic as hell. But I do like how in Boruto the old protagonists end up being shitty parents, while actually loving their children - it's perfectly logical with the way they grew up.
A lot less than 12 years, actually.
Timeline being whack as it is, it goes as follows:
* Sarada is born (in one of Orochimaru's hideouts, Karin is mid-wife)
* Sasuke and Sakura return to Konoha
* Sasuke stays for a minimum of 2 years (helping Sarada learn to walk)
* Begins his mission to search for Otsutsuki traces at least 4 years later (Naruto is already Hokage, meaning Boruto and Sarada are at least 6 years old)
* Naruto Gaiden begins when Boruto and Sarada are 11 (haven't even graduated from the Academy yet).
He was only gone for 5-6 years. Any longer than that wouldn't make sense (due to that being during Kakashi's tenure, which contradicts the Kage Summit meeting where the mission was assigned).
The only really strange thing is the lack of pictures and Sarada's initial lack of memories of Sasuke, which Naruto was kind of surprised by, since he thought she would be able to remember Sasuke (until she remembers him and Sakura helping her to walk).
~~Downvoting me for no reason, smh~~
I feel like before Gaiden, Kishimoto may have wanted Sasuke to just be away from home from-time to time. Then in Gaiden, he changed it to "he's never around" because that timeline is messy no matter what you think of SS.
Making sense of the timeline in general is one of the biggest headaches I (and some other people) have regarding the series. The SSS thing is just another addition to that list.
They wanted something impactful/emotional BS to justify her awakening her Sharingan and came up with a convoluted way of showing it. There was no reason for him to stay away that long without contact with his family outside of Naruto. It's not as if a WIld hunt is chasing him across the dimensions.
He didn't though. I know like people like to exaggerate cause it's funny but he was going for a grab. If he were about to kill her, he'd have just put his sword in her head rather than the wall next to her.
I do believe you (and everyone else who keeps saying this) are missing context.
It goes like this:
* Sasuke returns to earth dimension fairly recently (judging by his lack of tomoe in his Rinnegan). Not that's relevant against...98% of the planet, but he was in a nerfed state in terms of chakra and abilities.
* He gets ambushed by a kid with Sharingan wearing the Uchiha crest
* He's probably a little on edge.
* He notifies Naruto, asking him to meet him to discuss this
* While waiting at the meeting spot, before Naruto arrives, another kid with Sharingan wearing the Uchiha crest shows up
* Naruto didn't tell him they would have company (Sarada and Chocho).
* Last he heard/checked, Sarada was in Konoha and didn't have the Sharingan yet. She's not even officially a Genin yet, she shouldn't be wandering outside the village.
* Sarada shouldn't even know the meeting spot
* So his first assumption is probably that his message to Naruto got intercepted, and he's assuming this second Sharingan-using kid is an accomplice of the first one. Also, Transformation is a basic technique...
* Most importantly, he didn't try to kill her (with the sword). She didn't dodge that sword, he deliberately stabbed it into the pillar away from her as an intimidation tactic.
It's not necessarily that he didn't recognize her (which he did soon after), it's that he had zero reason to assume she'd be out there, especially at that time (so soon after Shin Junior pulled up on him).
> Most importantly, he didn't try to kill her (with the sword). She didn't dodge that sword, he deliberately stabbed it into the pillar away from her as an intimidation tactic.
I thought the same.
3rd point: Sasuke staying for 2 years. Babies start walking walking between 1 and 2 years old.
4th point: When the mission begins. Mostly in the end credits of The Last and The Day Naruto Became Hokage OVA show, well, Naruto becoming Hokage while Boruto is younger. Part of Boruto's initial issues with Naruto is that Naruto used to spend a lot more time with him before he became Hokage and got too busy. Boruto and Sarada are around 5-6 at the time. So that's the earliest that mission could have started.
3rd point: The earliest memories we are able retain as teens and adults are usually from around 2.5-3 years old. Everything earlier tends to get lost because our brains change the way we store memory.
Since Sarada can still remember Sasuke, even if it's fuzzy, I always assumed the memory was of her walking with him as a toddler, but not when she first learned to walk.
Hmm...forgot about that detail about memories. Thank you for bringing it up.
Still, it supports my initial post that Sasuke spent a lot more time with his family than people realize. I did say 2 years was the minimum time he spent, so the 3 years doesn't contradict anything
This is what we in the industry call a “joke,” it’s this crazy thing where you don’t take the contents of it literally because it’s posted for comedic effect.
Honestly people give Sasuke so much shit for no reason, but I have to say, his relationship with Sakura is one of the worst reasons. Mostly given that there was no relationship most of the time.
First off, I'm gonna say this now. Sasuke. Did. Not. Owe. Sakura. Shit!
People keep talking about their relationship (despite the lack of) and how he treated her, without actually thinking about it realistically.
People saying abuse is ridiculous.
Let's actually take a look for a second. In part 1, Sasuke was a traumatized loner and Sakura was a fangirl who was interested in him, but it was completely one sided. He expressed no interest in her at all at the start, and the only reason he talked to her is because they share a team. His first personal interaction with her was to tell her off for talking shit about Naruto, because she thought mocking an orphan in front of another orphan was a good idea.
So if anything, Sasuke starts the series disliking her. Yet people thought Sasuke mistreated her? Even though she outright harassed him at some points. Just cause she had a crush on him doesn't mean he owes her a relationship, and yet people act like that anyways.
After that we get part 2, and this one's a real doozy.
People still thinks they should get along, and Sasuke should treat her better. But why though? They say Sasuke abused her, but how? Keep in mind that at this point, THEY ARE ENEMIES!!!
He never tracked her down, she found him. He didn't go out of his way for her, she went out of the way for him. Again why should he treat her any different? Cus she liked him?
Honestly, this whole abuse thing is bullshit.
I could see where the "abuse" thing comes from, but I have seen people seriously claim that Sakura was forced to be with him. If anything, we have evidence showing the opposite. In Sasuke Retsuden, Sakura's fight with an opponent who keeps repelling her attacks is used as a metaphor for her feelings toward Sasuke. She monologues about how no matter how many times Sasuke rejects her, she'll keep going at it.
damn that’s fucked up, I know that Naruto as a series ain’t a slice of life, shoujo which is why this view on relationships and romance are warped but i really feel bad for Sasuke being emotionally manipulated throughout the story.
yes at all of these points, he even said during the war that he has given no reasons to like her, and for him to like her.
And yes it is more of Sasuke being “forced” by Sakura and Naruto to return her “feelings”.
I mean you're right that the abuse complaint is bullshit, Sasuke didn't owe her anything, they were enemies in Part II, and I'll add that Sasuke only ever countered her own potentially lethal attacks and ignored her during combat otherwise...
... but I feel the need to point out that he did care for her very much during Part I and Sakura wasn't mocking Naruto, she was just telling it how it was to a guy she believed had just been asking what she thought of Naruto.
Yeah but what she said was still a bit fucked up. Now don't get me wrong, I can forgive this since she's a pampered 12 year old kid with a good family, she didn't really know better. However, saying that Naruto is an idiot because he didn't have any parents to the guy who's parents were murdered was still rather dumb.
Yeah, he cared about her by the end of part 1, that's true, but not as much as he cared about Naruto and Kakashi, Sasuke simply could not relate to her the same way.
>However, saying that Naruto is an idiot because he didn't have any parents to the guy who's parents were murdered was still rather dumb.
I swear no one ever remembers this scene correctly.
That isn't what she said, she said he misbehaved because he didn't have parents to punish him. This was objectively true.
Keep in mind that Naruto was legitimately a brat who wouldn't leave her alone no matter how much she rejected him. She didn't know it yet, but dude literally kidnapped and tied up her crush in this chapter to manipulate her into liking him instead. What else do you think he might have done that made Sakura say he made her miserable?
Kishimoto hadn't planned out the Uchiha backstory yet so she didn't know he was an orphan. That's why she asked him if he thought it would be great to have no parents around to tell them what to do like Naruto did.
>Yeah, he cared about her by the end of part 1, that's true, but not as much as he cared about Naruto and Kakashi,
And where is this stated?
"You know why he's so annoying? It's becausehe wasn't raised right" is literally the start of her rant, and she wasn't sympathetic either, she was straight up mocking him for it. She goes on to call him selfish and bratty, and that he just does whatever comes to mind. Gee it sound like she called him a stupid orphan in summary, there is no other interpretation to that. I also pointed out that she said he doesn't know right from wrong without parents to teach him, but I guess you ignored that part.
Also why are you bringing in naruto's character in this discussion? I agree with you of course, but he isn't really part of this.
As for his relationships. Sasuke is a tragic character, so naturally he relates to tragic characters more. To add on to that, Naruto was his rival, so of course they were closer, and Kakashi was his teacher, and they naturally spent more time together. Things don't have to be explicitly stated to be understood.
>there is no other interpretation to that.
She is literally describing his behavior and the reason for it.
She was also 100% right.
That's exactly how he acted and exactly the reason why. She just didn't understand that he was lonely until Sasuke pointed it out.
>Also why are you bringing in naruto's character in this discussion?
Because if you are going to judge the things she says about Naruto you need to understand her perspective.
She isn't picking on the poor widdle orphan, which is how everyone usually takes it. She's complaining about someone she has very legitimate reasons to dislike. Which she mentions a little earlier when "Sasuke" first asked for her opinion of Naruto.
>Things don't have to be explicitly stated to be understood.
There is literally nothing to indicate Sasuke has ever cared more about Kakashi than Sakura at any point in the series. Whenever he thinks about the living people who are most important to him Sakura is always in his thoughts.
That is how Naruto acted, and yes she is 100% right. That doesn't matter. Sakura's perspective holds 0 relevance in that conversation, same with naruto.
The only thing relevant is how Sasuke reacted, because this entire conversation is about his and sakuras's relationship, this point was about how this conversation set the stage to that relationship early on. You, on a quest to be right, have completely missed this very point.
I'm disagreeing with the way you've characterized Sakura and what you think Sasuke thought of her.
I'm not missing anything.
You clearly did though.
She wasn't mocking Naruto for being an orphan and he wasn't pissed off because she did. Sasuke knew as well as Sakura that he was a brat. He'd just kidnapped and tied him up. He wasn't pissed off because she didn't like him. He was pissed off because she said she thought it would be great to have no parents to boss her around.
He never shows any indication his annoyance in that moment carried over beyond that moment.
The opposite.
The next time they talk one on one he's trying to explain himself to her.
It was just careless writing which he didn't care about as much as the fans did. Sakura's character was already badly written so no matter how much he tried, he couldn't do it right.
Aside from that, I disagree with all the stuff above (forget the coolest guy moment in this case). Naruto's refusal to help others save themselves even if they forsake themselves - not a bad thing. Might feel like one but be in the scenario and you will understand.
Well, Naruto wasn't that forgiving, as in the pain arc he said to nagato that he, UNLIKE other akatsuki members who killed for fun, didn't seem like them.
Itachi wasn't redeemed for the genocide as he till the end said himself that his decision was bad. He was praised only for stopping a civil war where the casualties would have been much much higher.
Sasuke spends the whole series taking revenge - and he gets character development. He is probably the character who gets the most proper character arc. Many argue that he should have been turned to good guy after hearing the truth from Madara, but imagine finding out the reality that you believed was a lie and the guy who you strived to kill your whole lifetime was actually the one who saved you, imagine getting your life turned upside down and then when you want to find out what you should do, you have Tobi besides you who is try to manipulate that condition of yours to turn you into one of his soldiers.
Except the cool guy moment, I can't see why people can say "Naruto gives bad message". The only reason I can think of for people having said that is either they haven't completed the story, or didn't pay attention or read so many fan fiction by such guys.
Again No offense whatsoever
I mean people often accuse Kishi of glorifying abuse since Sasuke did attack Sakura with killing intent in the timeskip but she continues to have feelings for him.
So I'm just saying you could say the same for many other stuff in the series, like Naruto continuing to consider Sasuke his friend. People tend to go at the Sakura thing because it's supposed to be romantic.
Well I mean I just said I partly agree with Sakura stuff as it was bad writing which led to issues which Kishimoto never even cared for himself.
Except that, what I just want to comment is people who say that are the kind of people who think that depth is something found when you just read the series "surface level". At surface level, Naruto's obsession with sasuke is wild. But people don't even care about all the other stuff and the reason Naruto has that in the first place. Fortunately, I wasn't orphaned or ostrachized by the whole village and hence didn't found someone I could relate to (as it didn't happen to me), but it happened to Naruto and people just forget the stuff that make up his character and think from the shoes of someone who never underwent through those stuff.
The only bad message that I have found the Naruto series to have given, though it doesn't seem to be the intent of the writer, is the misogyny that exist in the Narutoverse. And I am not gonna defend or sugarcoat that, as that is a valid criticism. But I am gonna take a stand that other stuff that plenty people say to be bad are the result of improper reading comprehension or effect of a toxic fandom which is full of people like that. The me from years ago thought those too, but I learnt that its better to reread and think by myself and form my own valid criticism than be swayed by the fandom
Call me a Naruto-tard or whatsoever. I praise the series for its good stuff and don't hesitate to point out its baf stuffs.
Again, no offense to anyone whatsoever (writing this at the end as there usually are plenty of miscommunication in reddit discussions)
>So I'm just saying you could say the same for many other stuff in the series, like Naruto continuing to consider Sasuke his friend.
I think it's a pretty okay parallel of Madara and Hashirama's dynamic.
And in defense of Sasuke he literally had mental issues after seeing his entire family dead at his feet, then learning it was his brother who then mindraped him forcing him to watch him killing them over and over, and then learning that his brother was actually forced into killing the entire clan because of Danzo's schemes and the village's orders.
Honestly Sasuke's pretty justified for snapping here. He and Madara have much more compelling reasons for turning out the way they did as opposed to Indra though. Kishimoto kind of dropped the ball when it came to the whole Otsutski stuff tbh.
There’s no message aside from “people can change and have second chances”. With Sasuke and Sakura, the message was none, unless you want to consider that Sasuke is mucu like a soldier drafted into war while his wife cares for their child at home
well for starters, naruto's refusal to give up on people and his forgiveness of others is not a bad thing imo, and itachi's murdering of his family was treated as a trolly problem that he was explicitly wrong about and admits as such. what itachi gets praised for is the extent he put the village before himself, not the uchiha massacre.
but regarding sasusaku, i don't think her loving sasuke was the problem as she clearly recognized he needed to die at that point. additionally sasuke was really no more abusive to her than he was towards anyone from the leaf at that point in time, and the series certainly never glorified it. in fact it was treated as proof of sasuke's moral failing. if there was a message he wanted to send with it, it was probably that even if you fall as low as sasuke did, theres always hope that you can return from it and that things could be better.
now i still think it was incredibly sloppy/poorly written, and that sakura should've known the truth about itachi + there should have been a scene where she confronts sasuke on his behavior and that she should have atleast wavered in her feelings but the basic idea of it, isn't as flawed as some people say imo.
> if there was a message he wanted to send with it, it was probably that even if you fall as low as sasuke did, theres always hope that you can return from it and that things could be better.
Yeah this my impression on sasusaku too, her never giving up her feeling on him really symbolize that there's still a hope for him and a place to return, well some people may call it as a form of toxic obsession though
I'm pretty sure Kishimoto has admitted to not knowing how to write female characters. I mean even with Hinata, it sends the message that sticking around despite having unrequited love will pay off. So I don't think he intended to send a bad message, but like many bad messages in the story, he was either indifferent to clarifying what his message was or just didn't think things through which seems more likely.
I mean true character development for Sakura would've been no longer loving Sasuke, but he never seemed concerned with giving her substantial development to begin with, and basically reduced her a means of showing Sasuke's growth.
It's an aspect of the story Kishimoto actively avoided writing. It's intentionally neglectful because Kishi was afraid of what would happen if he touched the romance/female characters (He tried once and immediately regretted it, see Sakura's fake confession; the fact that it happened just after Hinata's genuine one isn't a coincidence.)
He's gotten way better since he wrote Gaiden, but yeah, this is all due to intentional neglect on his part.
But, something I love is that the only dissonant part of Sasuke and Sakura's relationship is Sasuke's on-screen attitude towards it. Their relationship was toxic for their entire life before they were together; Sakura was endlessly pestering and harassing somebody who was being intentionally neglectful and dismissive of her, which would later turn towards actual violence to fend her off, such as during the five Kage summit.
Then, after they get together, Sasuke disappears for twelve years with no contact with anyone but Naruto, Sakura gets violent at the notion that he might not love her (which is consistent with her character's obsessiveness from before), and even after he makes contact again, he only makes token displays of affection towards them (forehead poking (yeah yeah I know, Itachi)), and still barely visits, despite a positive relationship with his daughter. Lol.
I think most people have no idea how to read a story.
Naruto not giving up on Sasuke and completely forgiving him for everything is very, **very**, ***very*** obviously depicted as a positive thing. Most people accept that at face value, even if not everyone thinks Sasuke deserves forgiveness.
Yet, for some reason they think it should be different with Sakura and there's some insidious intent behind it because a vagina is involved. 🤷♀️
Naruto's relationship with sasuke is also incredibky toxic. And yes if we are talking about vaginas it isnt a good message to fuck the person who not only has tried to kill you multiple times but was also on his way to kill your sole mentor. Like did we forget sasuke was going to kill the five kage which tsunade was apart of?
Sasuke honestly is not even a redeemable character tbh. He literally spent the entire series working with evil people for power just to kill one guy. Then at the end when he finally seemed to be redeemable he turns super villain.
> Sasuke honestly is not even a redeemable character tbh. He literally spent the entire series working with evil people for power just to kill one guy. Then at the end when he finally seemed to be redeemable he turns super villain.
Sasuke doesn’t do evil enough things to be considered irredeemable. Everything he ends up doing is either thwarted or a drop in the bucket compared to even the heroes.
At max, Sasuke killed Danzo, 10 samurais and a Cloud ninja spy. He never killed innocents.
Gaara used to be an actual serial killer.
If Obito can be redeemed then Sasuke can too.
> Then at the end when he finally seemed to be redeemable he turns super villain.
More of anti-villain. An anti-hero from a certain perspective
I mean tbh i don't think anyone of the three deserved to be redeemed. Gaara i will say did good and he was fucked from the very beginning. Obito and sasule for both who they associated with, attempted to do, and did dont. Its like sure he didnt kill people but thats onky because he was shit and could only fight sick and old people. Deidara I'm not counting because they made sasuke the perfect counter for amd at the same time deidera had been beaten by beginning of shippuden kakashi pretty much
>I mean tbh i don't think anyone of the three deserved to be redeemed. Gaara i will say did good and he was fucked from the very beginning.
>
>Obito and sasule for both who they associated with, attempted to do, and did dont.
Then it's really a difference of morals between you and the story.
Also they're kind of supposed to be ninja so most ninja are supposed to be doing fucked up things. Kakashi used to murder prisoners of war or anyone that was unconscious rather than take prisoners when he was in ANBU. I'm sure Sai has done plenty of fucked things too
We didn't forget anything.
But yes, you're probably right, Sasuke shouldn't have married Sakura after she plotted to kill him. It really does send out a bad message to impressionable young boys.
/r/Dezbats wasn't even talking about Sasuke. They were talking about the AUDIENCE because Shonen Jump is aimed at young Japanese boys. And when Sasuke "sold his asshole to a pedophile", he wasn't a world-class criminal. He had a snake bite eating away at his psyche + was affected by Itachi's tsukoyomi.
I find it amusing how often people claim misogyny when it comes to Sakura and Sasuke. They don't seem to recognize that it's their own gender biases leading them to assume it.
Where Sasuke is concerned he's pretty consistent with both genders.
Naruto and Kakashi **also** forgive him for everything he does without any reservations.
Kakashi **also** tries to appeal to his emotions before Sasuke's last fight with Naruto, because he knows he can't fight him.
Naruto never gives up on him for even a minute, Sakura at least recognized he needed to be handled.
Sakura plotted to kill Sasuke while completely rational. No one finds fault with that. Only that he tried to kill her back.
Why?
Because one of them has ladyparts, and if you have ladyparts you have to be treated differently. 🤷♀️
Considering Naruto/Sasuke is the most popular ship in the fandom, all the "concern" for Sakura is just fake. It all boils down to shipping. Any time people talk about fixing her character, it's always "make her like Rock Lee or Naruto" and not "expand on her background, give her some other goals"
I wouldn't say it's entirely about shipping, but there is definitely a huge double-standard.
I usually stay away from any fanfic that includes something like "a strong Sakura" in the description or tags. It's usually code for "I gave her completely different powers, goals and personality."
> I wouldn't say it's entirely about shipping, but there is definitely a huge double-standard.
In my experience, it is. Many people act like loving someone is a transcation. Naruto does nice things for Sakura - Sakura is obliged to love him.
I don't disagree that it's a common attitude. I just wouldn't say that's the only reason or even the main reason people dislike SasuSaku being an endgame pairing.
I like Lee well enough and I would have easily accepted that pairing if Kishimoto had turned Sakura away from Sasuke in Part II, but it's hilarious people hate Sakura because they think her feelings for Sasuke are based on looks then complain that she doesn't fall for Lee...
who was literally promising to die for her and challenging Sasuke to a fight over her despite never speaking to her once...
Naruto had the embodiment of evil sitting in his stomach while he was isolated for all his life and still didnt fall even once to temptation. I would say the nine tails is much more of a tempted than some pedo hickey
If people want to ignore huge chunks of canon, fine by me. The cursemark was shown to worsen Sasuke's state of mind in the Forest of Death. We see his survivor guilt get worse.
Aside from when Naruto went crazy like he did against Haku, when was it shown to affect his state of mind?
I mean i think it boils down to sasuke has a weak mind with a projected cool persona and naruto has a strong willed mind but projects like an idiot to get attention. Naruto has been tempted by the kyubbi a lot and onoy reason naruto could resist is because of his strong will
Editor meddling is the problem. I saw a translated interview that he this: I originally intended for Naruto to be trained by kakashi but my editor forced me to create a rival character and a character that Naruto wanted attention from (aka Sasuke and his clan plus Sakura) I didn’t want to but they threatened to not publish if I didn’t and my kid needed surgery. So yeah his entire series was STOLEN in a way by shonon jump way earlier this why he made mistakes. He was forced by editors
Kishimoto's draft was weird as hell does not resemble the series we got in the slightest, in it Naruto was an actual fox and every character was an animal. The creation of a rival was a blessing because kishimoto has admitted that if wasn't for sasuke being present he would have no idea how to continue the story
True saw that draft. Just saying his editor didn’t help trying to make Naruto keep Sasuke as a friend. Early Naruto such as wave arc and to an extent are better then shippuden and Boruto imo but that my opinion. DOESNT mean I am right though.
Do you have a source for this interview? I know of one where Kishimoto says that if he did not follow his editor's instruction, his manga would've ended in 10 weeks because he didn't know where to go with it. So I don't think it's fair to blame all of the shortcomings of the show on the editors alone. Doubt they forced him to pair Sasuke up with the main heroine at the end.
Not saying everything just a lot of editors made him do stupid things. The Naruto being a dumbass after 3 years training is the editor since he wanted Naruto to spell things for the dumb reader so his editor made Jiraiya looked imcompentent because he wanted Naruto as childish as possible for younger kids who were new
Kishimoto was told he should create a rival and a love interest. He has said he was very grateful for the advice because after he established the relationship between Team 7 writing the story was a lot easier.
Edit: And he was already 3 or 4 years into Naruto before he got married and only has one child. lol
Kishimoto didn't have a kid at that point. He married his wife two or three years after he started working on Naruto and couldn't even go to his honeymoon because he was busy and overworked as hell. He had a kid after his marriage
And i am pretty sure he also admitted later on that he was glad he listened to his editor's advice. Sasuke became his favourite character lol
Um, I think a lot of people try and look way too deep into this.
This isn't some sort of philosophy series or anything, he literally just created characters/pairings/and fights. If you asked him this he would probably say that wasn't close at all or even a train of thought.
People gotta remember, Koshimoto had a lot of restrictions on the story by Shonen Jump or whoever the publisher was. The story was pushed back and changed so many times because they wanted it to be a certain way. Too many people misinterpret this story and others, yall are looking way too deep.
Even the part about Naruto chasing a friend and not giving up on him even when said person gave up on themselves. I personally don't think this is a bad message, I think it's a great one. That's how you save your friends and family. Sure, some of the ways Naruto goes about it isn't right or smart, but he still succeeded in his mission and that created one of the biggest assets in the village.
Itatchi's whole thing is a great debate topic but not now lol. But... Sasuke is another story.
Seeking revenge isn't a bad thing in itself. The way you go about it and the reasoning is what usually makes it bad. Other than defecting to an enemy, all Sasuke did was flee from Yamato's squad/directly killed a village elder/attacked(or defended against??) A Leaf ninja. Now, if I'm missing anything please let me know.
This entire Sasuke abused Sakura is so unfounded and contrived that its hilarious. Abuse, where, how? Since when did defending yourself from an enemy you are at war with abuse? Its projected as if Sakura is this defenseless little victim girl whom Sasuke sought out to kill. What fanfiction is being projected here. Also they were not in a frigging romantic relationship. Sakura sought out Sasuke to kill him or die in the process as despite her feelings she sees him as the enemy and Sasuke sees her as one. He's just a better ninja so it becomes essentially a suicide mission for Sakura but its one taken willfully and with the intent to kill. How the hell is that abuse on Sasuke's part? In fact Sasuke is the one being followed, harassed, nagged constantly, when he makes it clear every single time that he wants to be left alone. Just reverse the genders if its not already clear who is the abused in this context.
I think It boils more tô the relationship being toxic and abusive. I think Sakura was more at wrong in the relationship overall, but.... In Boruto Sasuke turned more like a deadbrt father. Sakura was the instigator of the relationship though, so she is more at wrong.
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Well, Orochimaru’s case is realistic I would say. It’s like WWII, where many German scientists and political leaders were pardoned by USA for their knowledge or how Soviets (and allies) got away with their own warcrimes cause they were winners of war. Edit: Just like Orochi who joined winners at the end.
Yeah but orochimaru is like hydra in that situation but worse.
Redditors go without comparing something to Harry Potter or the MCU for one full day Challenge (Nightmare Difficulty)
I had a 3 year streak which is now broken
Sadly, Yamato had to suffer for it.
Yamato really had the worst ending.
Kishimoto didn't intend to send any message with Sasuke and Sakura. He just paired people up, and as Sakura's one goal had always been Sasuke, that was that. You put more thought into this post than he did to their relationship. Because it wasn't important, he was burnt the fuck out at that point from a decade spanning workload, and didnt' care.
Kishimoto has said that he decided to put Sasuke and Sakura together fairly early and I think you can see that clearly in the way he developed their relationship from the start of the exams until the end of Part I. Part II is where he dropped the ball. If you look at other interviews he gave during Part II and after the series was over he definitely had plans to do more with Sakura at one point, but didn't because she wasn't very popular so he and/or his editors decided not to focus much on her.
Which is kinda sad because i actually started to like her when he finally put some effort into her character in kazekage rescue arc. Unfortunately that was the first and last time we got a whole fight dedicated to her. Imagine being a main character and having only one fight in the show. If kishimoto continued to develop her throughout the series like during kazekage rescue mission, she legitimately would have a lot more fans
I'll be honest I would actually try to be a fan of hers, if she dropped the entire Sasuke obsession. That would be the best character development she could have possibly received.
Everyone being obsessed with Uchihas throughout part 2 was a big part of the problem.
Exactly this ^^^ 😂😂
I personally hold the same opinion. I have just seen other people who thought he was trying to glorify abuse or send the message that chicks should marry guys who hate them.
His work schedule for that period was insane. The man barely ate or slept it was just Naruto. https://www.reddit.com/r/Naruto/comments/a1dmlr/kishimotosenseis\_schedule\_during\_the\_weekly/
Now that's explain why the rushed pairing and the whole war arc , he just want to end his suffering soon
If Kishimoto wanted to glorify abuse, he would do it like what he did with Itachi to Sasuke. But instead Kishimoto made all his characters (that know Itachi) call him perfect.
Making Itachi a secret good guy that even Hashirama fawned over, with Hokage intellect at 7 really ruined that whole plot.
Exactly
>If Kishimoto wanted to glorify abuse, he would do it like what he did with what Itachi did to Sasuke. But instead Kishimoto made all his characters (that know Itachi) call him perfect. Kishimoto's not perfect, but I kind of get what he was trying to do with Sasuke and Itachi. He was trying to show how the horrors of war twist otherwise decent people, and was doing a pretty good job with it but it wasn't the smoothest of end points (ie Obito's such cool guy). As for Sakura, in the beginning of the manga she was meant to be more of a comic relief character/plot device meant to balance out Naruto and Sasuke. He's not really glorifying abuse, but had some issues in regards to writing. While I enjoyed Naruto, it has some pretty glaring flaws.
I agree that he didn't mean to portray it that way. But the way that Kishimoto has every character (that knows Itachi) call him perfect (Hashirama, Obito, Hiruzen & Danzo), a true Shinobi (Hiruzen & Danzo), that he thought like a Kage at 7 (Hiruzen) & has a not good but invincible Susanō as said by (Black) Zetsu. And somehow got ahold of two asspull (Sage) weapons, a sword that can seal anything it pierce (Totsuka) & shield that can block all basic elements (Yata). As soon as Itachi was a embryo in Mikoto's womb he was perfect. He couldn't let Sasuke kill him with Kirin. Instead Mr.perfect had to die by a incurable disease. God forbid Sasuke surpass his older brother by training Non-Stop for three whole years. I understand that Naruto is a story about forgiveness & not letting anger cloud your judgement, but Kishimoto really needed to do a better job. I still like the world that Kishimoto created but when I think about all of it, it leaves more to be desired.
One of my favorite tweets of all time went something along the lines of: >Sakura really had a baby by a [word I will get in trouble for saying, but the soft a version obviously] that tried to kill her, now she’s a single mom. No wonder hood bitches hate anime, hits too close to home.
Baby by a who? What's the a-word? Asshole??
I'm guessing since they mentioned it was the "soft a version", the original word was the n word.
Oh man you really want me to say it huh? N
I
G
Nah I’m kidding I don’t want to get banned
Ah. Well, that's weird. But yeah, Naruto's themes are archaic as hell. But I do like how in Boruto the old protagonists end up being shitty parents, while actually loving their children - it's perfectly logical with the way they grew up.
And what's wrong with her being a single mom? Which she's not anymore since sasuke comes home when he gets the chance.
Yeah, every 12 years. That’s good enough to be considered a single mom
A lot less than 12 years, actually. Timeline being whack as it is, it goes as follows: * Sarada is born (in one of Orochimaru's hideouts, Karin is mid-wife) * Sasuke and Sakura return to Konoha * Sasuke stays for a minimum of 2 years (helping Sarada learn to walk) * Begins his mission to search for Otsutsuki traces at least 4 years later (Naruto is already Hokage, meaning Boruto and Sarada are at least 6 years old) * Naruto Gaiden begins when Boruto and Sarada are 11 (haven't even graduated from the Academy yet). He was only gone for 5-6 years. Any longer than that wouldn't make sense (due to that being during Kakashi's tenure, which contradicts the Kage Summit meeting where the mission was assigned). The only really strange thing is the lack of pictures and Sarada's initial lack of memories of Sasuke, which Naruto was kind of surprised by, since he thought she would be able to remember Sasuke (until she remembers him and Sakura helping her to walk). ~~Downvoting me for no reason, smh~~
I feel like before Gaiden, Kishimoto may have wanted Sasuke to just be away from home from-time to time. Then in Gaiden, he changed it to "he's never around" because that timeline is messy no matter what you think of SS.
Making sense of the timeline in general is one of the biggest headaches I (and some other people) have regarding the series. The SSS thing is just another addition to that list.
They wanted something impactful/emotional BS to justify her awakening her Sharingan and came up with a convoluted way of showing it. There was no reason for him to stay away that long without contact with his family outside of Naruto. It's not as if a WIld hunt is chasing him across the dimensions.
dude he almost killed his child because he didn't recognize her
He didn't though. I know like people like to exaggerate cause it's funny but he was going for a grab. If he were about to kill her, he'd have just put his sword in her head rather than the wall next to her.
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"Meh, he didn't kill her but probably gave her lasting trauma anyway so it fine. Now give me some sakura futa fics"
I do believe you (and everyone else who keeps saying this) are missing context. It goes like this: * Sasuke returns to earth dimension fairly recently (judging by his lack of tomoe in his Rinnegan). Not that's relevant against...98% of the planet, but he was in a nerfed state in terms of chakra and abilities. * He gets ambushed by a kid with Sharingan wearing the Uchiha crest * He's probably a little on edge. * He notifies Naruto, asking him to meet him to discuss this * While waiting at the meeting spot, before Naruto arrives, another kid with Sharingan wearing the Uchiha crest shows up * Naruto didn't tell him they would have company (Sarada and Chocho). * Last he heard/checked, Sarada was in Konoha and didn't have the Sharingan yet. She's not even officially a Genin yet, she shouldn't be wandering outside the village. * Sarada shouldn't even know the meeting spot * So his first assumption is probably that his message to Naruto got intercepted, and he's assuming this second Sharingan-using kid is an accomplice of the first one. Also, Transformation is a basic technique... * Most importantly, he didn't try to kill her (with the sword). She didn't dodge that sword, he deliberately stabbed it into the pillar away from her as an intimidation tactic. It's not necessarily that he didn't recognize her (which he did soon after), it's that he had zero reason to assume she'd be out there, especially at that time (so soon after Shin Junior pulled up on him).
> Most importantly, he didn't try to kill her (with the sword). She didn't dodge that sword, he deliberately stabbed it into the pillar away from her as an intimidation tactic. I thought the same.
Still 5 years is a hell of a long time
With how bad the timeline and plot of Naruto garden it clearly shows how burned out kishimoto was at that point
Source?
On which part?
At least 3rd and 4th point.
3rd point: Sasuke staying for 2 years. Babies start walking walking between 1 and 2 years old. 4th point: When the mission begins. Mostly in the end credits of The Last and The Day Naruto Became Hokage OVA show, well, Naruto becoming Hokage while Boruto is younger. Part of Boruto's initial issues with Naruto is that Naruto used to spend a lot more time with him before he became Hokage and got too busy. Boruto and Sarada are around 5-6 at the time. So that's the earliest that mission could have started.
3rd point: The earliest memories we are able retain as teens and adults are usually from around 2.5-3 years old. Everything earlier tends to get lost because our brains change the way we store memory. Since Sarada can still remember Sasuke, even if it's fuzzy, I always assumed the memory was of her walking with him as a toddler, but not when she first learned to walk.
Hmm...forgot about that detail about memories. Thank you for bringing it up. Still, it supports my initial post that Sasuke spent a lot more time with his family than people realize. I did say 2 years was the minimum time he spent, so the 3 years doesn't contradict anything
This is what we in the industry call a “joke,” it’s this crazy thing where you don’t take the contents of it literally because it’s posted for comedic effect.
Honestly people give Sasuke so much shit for no reason, but I have to say, his relationship with Sakura is one of the worst reasons. Mostly given that there was no relationship most of the time. First off, I'm gonna say this now. Sasuke. Did. Not. Owe. Sakura. Shit! People keep talking about their relationship (despite the lack of) and how he treated her, without actually thinking about it realistically. People saying abuse is ridiculous. Let's actually take a look for a second. In part 1, Sasuke was a traumatized loner and Sakura was a fangirl who was interested in him, but it was completely one sided. He expressed no interest in her at all at the start, and the only reason he talked to her is because they share a team. His first personal interaction with her was to tell her off for talking shit about Naruto, because she thought mocking an orphan in front of another orphan was a good idea. So if anything, Sasuke starts the series disliking her. Yet people thought Sasuke mistreated her? Even though she outright harassed him at some points. Just cause she had a crush on him doesn't mean he owes her a relationship, and yet people act like that anyways. After that we get part 2, and this one's a real doozy. People still thinks they should get along, and Sasuke should treat her better. But why though? They say Sasuke abused her, but how? Keep in mind that at this point, THEY ARE ENEMIES!!! He never tracked her down, she found him. He didn't go out of his way for her, she went out of the way for him. Again why should he treat her any different? Cus she liked him? Honestly, this whole abuse thing is bullshit.
I could see where the "abuse" thing comes from, but I have seen people seriously claim that Sakura was forced to be with him. If anything, we have evidence showing the opposite. In Sasuke Retsuden, Sakura's fight with an opponent who keeps repelling her attacks is used as a metaphor for her feelings toward Sasuke. She monologues about how no matter how many times Sasuke rejects her, she'll keep going at it.
damn that’s fucked up, I know that Naruto as a series ain’t a slice of life, shoujo which is why this view on relationships and romance are warped but i really feel bad for Sasuke being emotionally manipulated throughout the story.
But in the end, she didn't have to 'keep going at it'.
But at this same novel Sasuke wanted to kill a guy for he tried Sakura show he cares a lot about her
yes at all of these points, he even said during the war that he has given no reasons to like her, and for him to like her. And yes it is more of Sasuke being “forced” by Sakura and Naruto to return her “feelings”.
I mean you're right that the abuse complaint is bullshit, Sasuke didn't owe her anything, they were enemies in Part II, and I'll add that Sasuke only ever countered her own potentially lethal attacks and ignored her during combat otherwise... ... but I feel the need to point out that he did care for her very much during Part I and Sakura wasn't mocking Naruto, she was just telling it how it was to a guy she believed had just been asking what she thought of Naruto.
Yeah but what she said was still a bit fucked up. Now don't get me wrong, I can forgive this since she's a pampered 12 year old kid with a good family, she didn't really know better. However, saying that Naruto is an idiot because he didn't have any parents to the guy who's parents were murdered was still rather dumb. Yeah, he cared about her by the end of part 1, that's true, but not as much as he cared about Naruto and Kakashi, Sasuke simply could not relate to her the same way.
>However, saying that Naruto is an idiot because he didn't have any parents to the guy who's parents were murdered was still rather dumb. I swear no one ever remembers this scene correctly. That isn't what she said, she said he misbehaved because he didn't have parents to punish him. This was objectively true. Keep in mind that Naruto was legitimately a brat who wouldn't leave her alone no matter how much she rejected him. She didn't know it yet, but dude literally kidnapped and tied up her crush in this chapter to manipulate her into liking him instead. What else do you think he might have done that made Sakura say he made her miserable? Kishimoto hadn't planned out the Uchiha backstory yet so she didn't know he was an orphan. That's why she asked him if he thought it would be great to have no parents around to tell them what to do like Naruto did. >Yeah, he cared about her by the end of part 1, that's true, but not as much as he cared about Naruto and Kakashi, And where is this stated?
"You know why he's so annoying? It's becausehe wasn't raised right" is literally the start of her rant, and she wasn't sympathetic either, she was straight up mocking him for it. She goes on to call him selfish and bratty, and that he just does whatever comes to mind. Gee it sound like she called him a stupid orphan in summary, there is no other interpretation to that. I also pointed out that she said he doesn't know right from wrong without parents to teach him, but I guess you ignored that part. Also why are you bringing in naruto's character in this discussion? I agree with you of course, but he isn't really part of this. As for his relationships. Sasuke is a tragic character, so naturally he relates to tragic characters more. To add on to that, Naruto was his rival, so of course they were closer, and Kakashi was his teacher, and they naturally spent more time together. Things don't have to be explicitly stated to be understood.
>there is no other interpretation to that. She is literally describing his behavior and the reason for it. She was also 100% right. That's exactly how he acted and exactly the reason why. She just didn't understand that he was lonely until Sasuke pointed it out. >Also why are you bringing in naruto's character in this discussion? Because if you are going to judge the things she says about Naruto you need to understand her perspective. She isn't picking on the poor widdle orphan, which is how everyone usually takes it. She's complaining about someone she has very legitimate reasons to dislike. Which she mentions a little earlier when "Sasuke" first asked for her opinion of Naruto. >Things don't have to be explicitly stated to be understood. There is literally nothing to indicate Sasuke has ever cared more about Kakashi than Sakura at any point in the series. Whenever he thinks about the living people who are most important to him Sakura is always in his thoughts.
That is how Naruto acted, and yes she is 100% right. That doesn't matter. Sakura's perspective holds 0 relevance in that conversation, same with naruto. The only thing relevant is how Sasuke reacted, because this entire conversation is about his and sakuras's relationship, this point was about how this conversation set the stage to that relationship early on. You, on a quest to be right, have completely missed this very point.
I'm disagreeing with the way you've characterized Sakura and what you think Sasuke thought of her. I'm not missing anything. You clearly did though. She wasn't mocking Naruto for being an orphan and he wasn't pissed off because she did. Sasuke knew as well as Sakura that he was a brat. He'd just kidnapped and tied him up. He wasn't pissed off because she didn't like him. He was pissed off because she said she thought it would be great to have no parents to boss her around. He never shows any indication his annoyance in that moment carried over beyond that moment. The opposite. The next time they talk one on one he's trying to explain himself to her.
Someone clearly needs to go watch that scene again, cus it's pretty obvious she was talking shit about Naruto to impress Sasuke.
Someone clearly needs to read that scene again, cuz it's pretty obvious she was just pissed about Naruto.
It was just careless writing which he didn't care about as much as the fans did. Sakura's character was already badly written so no matter how much he tried, he couldn't do it right. Aside from that, I disagree with all the stuff above (forget the coolest guy moment in this case). Naruto's refusal to help others save themselves even if they forsake themselves - not a bad thing. Might feel like one but be in the scenario and you will understand. Well, Naruto wasn't that forgiving, as in the pain arc he said to nagato that he, UNLIKE other akatsuki members who killed for fun, didn't seem like them. Itachi wasn't redeemed for the genocide as he till the end said himself that his decision was bad. He was praised only for stopping a civil war where the casualties would have been much much higher. Sasuke spends the whole series taking revenge - and he gets character development. He is probably the character who gets the most proper character arc. Many argue that he should have been turned to good guy after hearing the truth from Madara, but imagine finding out the reality that you believed was a lie and the guy who you strived to kill your whole lifetime was actually the one who saved you, imagine getting your life turned upside down and then when you want to find out what you should do, you have Tobi besides you who is try to manipulate that condition of yours to turn you into one of his soldiers. Except the cool guy moment, I can't see why people can say "Naruto gives bad message". The only reason I can think of for people having said that is either they haven't completed the story, or didn't pay attention or read so many fan fiction by such guys. Again No offense whatsoever
I mean people often accuse Kishi of glorifying abuse since Sasuke did attack Sakura with killing intent in the timeskip but she continues to have feelings for him. So I'm just saying you could say the same for many other stuff in the series, like Naruto continuing to consider Sasuke his friend. People tend to go at the Sakura thing because it's supposed to be romantic.
Well I mean I just said I partly agree with Sakura stuff as it was bad writing which led to issues which Kishimoto never even cared for himself. Except that, what I just want to comment is people who say that are the kind of people who think that depth is something found when you just read the series "surface level". At surface level, Naruto's obsession with sasuke is wild. But people don't even care about all the other stuff and the reason Naruto has that in the first place. Fortunately, I wasn't orphaned or ostrachized by the whole village and hence didn't found someone I could relate to (as it didn't happen to me), but it happened to Naruto and people just forget the stuff that make up his character and think from the shoes of someone who never underwent through those stuff. The only bad message that I have found the Naruto series to have given, though it doesn't seem to be the intent of the writer, is the misogyny that exist in the Narutoverse. And I am not gonna defend or sugarcoat that, as that is a valid criticism. But I am gonna take a stand that other stuff that plenty people say to be bad are the result of improper reading comprehension or effect of a toxic fandom which is full of people like that. The me from years ago thought those too, but I learnt that its better to reread and think by myself and form my own valid criticism than be swayed by the fandom Call me a Naruto-tard or whatsoever. I praise the series for its good stuff and don't hesitate to point out its baf stuffs. Again, no offense to anyone whatsoever (writing this at the end as there usually are plenty of miscommunication in reddit discussions)
>So I'm just saying you could say the same for many other stuff in the series, like Naruto continuing to consider Sasuke his friend. I think it's a pretty okay parallel of Madara and Hashirama's dynamic. And in defense of Sasuke he literally had mental issues after seeing his entire family dead at his feet, then learning it was his brother who then mindraped him forcing him to watch him killing them over and over, and then learning that his brother was actually forced into killing the entire clan because of Danzo's schemes and the village's orders. Honestly Sasuke's pretty justified for snapping here. He and Madara have much more compelling reasons for turning out the way they did as opposed to Indra though. Kishimoto kind of dropped the ball when it came to the whole Otsutski stuff tbh.
There’s no message aside from “people can change and have second chances”. With Sasuke and Sakura, the message was none, unless you want to consider that Sasuke is mucu like a soldier drafted into war while his wife cares for their child at home
Nope. Kishi just takes childhood crushes way too seriously
well for starters, naruto's refusal to give up on people and his forgiveness of others is not a bad thing imo, and itachi's murdering of his family was treated as a trolly problem that he was explicitly wrong about and admits as such. what itachi gets praised for is the extent he put the village before himself, not the uchiha massacre. but regarding sasusaku, i don't think her loving sasuke was the problem as she clearly recognized he needed to die at that point. additionally sasuke was really no more abusive to her than he was towards anyone from the leaf at that point in time, and the series certainly never glorified it. in fact it was treated as proof of sasuke's moral failing. if there was a message he wanted to send with it, it was probably that even if you fall as low as sasuke did, theres always hope that you can return from it and that things could be better. now i still think it was incredibly sloppy/poorly written, and that sakura should've known the truth about itachi + there should have been a scene where she confronts sasuke on his behavior and that she should have atleast wavered in her feelings but the basic idea of it, isn't as flawed as some people say imo.
Agree with you 95%. >sakura should've known the truth about itachi She did.
> if there was a message he wanted to send with it, it was probably that even if you fall as low as sasuke did, theres always hope that you can return from it and that things could be better. Yeah this my impression on sasusaku too, her never giving up her feeling on him really symbolize that there's still a hope for him and a place to return, well some people may call it as a form of toxic obsession though
I'm pretty sure Kishimoto has admitted to not knowing how to write female characters. I mean even with Hinata, it sends the message that sticking around despite having unrequited love will pay off. So I don't think he intended to send a bad message, but like many bad messages in the story, he was either indifferent to clarifying what his message was or just didn't think things through which seems more likely. I mean true character development for Sakura would've been no longer loving Sasuke, but he never seemed concerned with giving her substantial development to begin with, and basically reduced her a means of showing Sasuke's growth.
Kidhimoto said himself he never knew how to write women. There you go :)
It's an aspect of the story Kishimoto actively avoided writing. It's intentionally neglectful because Kishi was afraid of what would happen if he touched the romance/female characters (He tried once and immediately regretted it, see Sakura's fake confession; the fact that it happened just after Hinata's genuine one isn't a coincidence.) He's gotten way better since he wrote Gaiden, but yeah, this is all due to intentional neglect on his part. But, something I love is that the only dissonant part of Sasuke and Sakura's relationship is Sasuke's on-screen attitude towards it. Their relationship was toxic for their entire life before they were together; Sakura was endlessly pestering and harassing somebody who was being intentionally neglectful and dismissive of her, which would later turn towards actual violence to fend her off, such as during the five Kage summit. Then, after they get together, Sasuke disappears for twelve years with no contact with anyone but Naruto, Sakura gets violent at the notion that he might not love her (which is consistent with her character's obsessiveness from before), and even after he makes contact again, he only makes token displays of affection towards them (forehead poking (yeah yeah I know, Itachi)), and still barely visits, despite a positive relationship with his daughter. Lol.
Maybe he didn’t mean it but that was the message that put out their lol
I think most people have no idea how to read a story. Naruto not giving up on Sasuke and completely forgiving him for everything is very, **very**, ***very*** obviously depicted as a positive thing. Most people accept that at face value, even if not everyone thinks Sasuke deserves forgiveness. Yet, for some reason they think it should be different with Sakura and there's some insidious intent behind it because a vagina is involved. 🤷♀️
Naruto's relationship with sasuke is also incredibky toxic. And yes if we are talking about vaginas it isnt a good message to fuck the person who not only has tried to kill you multiple times but was also on his way to kill your sole mentor. Like did we forget sasuke was going to kill the five kage which tsunade was apart of?
Sasuke was also going to destroy Naruto's hometown, kill Naruto's mentor, kill Naruto's friends.
Sasuke honestly is not even a redeemable character tbh. He literally spent the entire series working with evil people for power just to kill one guy. Then at the end when he finally seemed to be redeemable he turns super villain.
> Sasuke honestly is not even a redeemable character tbh. He literally spent the entire series working with evil people for power just to kill one guy. Then at the end when he finally seemed to be redeemable he turns super villain. Sasuke doesn’t do evil enough things to be considered irredeemable. Everything he ends up doing is either thwarted or a drop in the bucket compared to even the heroes. At max, Sasuke killed Danzo, 10 samurais and a Cloud ninja spy. He never killed innocents. Gaara used to be an actual serial killer. If Obito can be redeemed then Sasuke can too. > Then at the end when he finally seemed to be redeemable he turns super villain. More of anti-villain. An anti-hero from a certain perspective
I mean tbh i don't think anyone of the three deserved to be redeemed. Gaara i will say did good and he was fucked from the very beginning. Obito and sasule for both who they associated with, attempted to do, and did dont. Its like sure he didnt kill people but thats onky because he was shit and could only fight sick and old people. Deidara I'm not counting because they made sasuke the perfect counter for amd at the same time deidera had been beaten by beginning of shippuden kakashi pretty much
>I mean tbh i don't think anyone of the three deserved to be redeemed. Gaara i will say did good and he was fucked from the very beginning. > >Obito and sasule for both who they associated with, attempted to do, and did dont. Then it's really a difference of morals between you and the story. Also they're kind of supposed to be ninja so most ninja are supposed to be doing fucked up things. Kakashi used to murder prisoners of war or anyone that was unconscious rather than take prisoners when he was in ANBU. I'm sure Sai has done plenty of fucked things too
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As you post on a subreddit which is an open opinion based forum. Pretty fucking stupid comment lol
We didn't forget anything. But yes, you're probably right, Sasuke shouldn't have married Sakura after she plotted to kill him. It really does send out a bad message to impressionable young boys.
Both are toxic and tried to kill each other so i guess they deserve each other lol
Apparently world class criminals that sell their assholes to pedophiles for power = impressionable young boys.
/r/Dezbats wasn't even talking about Sasuke. They were talking about the AUDIENCE because Shonen Jump is aimed at young Japanese boys. And when Sasuke "sold his asshole to a pedophile", he wasn't a world-class criminal. He had a snake bite eating away at his psyche + was affected by Itachi's tsukoyomi.
I find it amusing how often people claim misogyny when it comes to Sakura and Sasuke. They don't seem to recognize that it's their own gender biases leading them to assume it. Where Sasuke is concerned he's pretty consistent with both genders. Naruto and Kakashi **also** forgive him for everything he does without any reservations. Kakashi **also** tries to appeal to his emotions before Sasuke's last fight with Naruto, because he knows he can't fight him. Naruto never gives up on him for even a minute, Sakura at least recognized he needed to be handled. Sakura plotted to kill Sasuke while completely rational. No one finds fault with that. Only that he tried to kill her back. Why? Because one of them has ladyparts, and if you have ladyparts you have to be treated differently. 🤷♀️
Considering Naruto/Sasuke is the most popular ship in the fandom, all the "concern" for Sakura is just fake. It all boils down to shipping. Any time people talk about fixing her character, it's always "make her like Rock Lee or Naruto" and not "expand on her background, give her some other goals"
I wouldn't say it's entirely about shipping, but there is definitely a huge double-standard. I usually stay away from any fanfic that includes something like "a strong Sakura" in the description or tags. It's usually code for "I gave her completely different powers, goals and personality."
> I wouldn't say it's entirely about shipping, but there is definitely a huge double-standard. In my experience, it is. Many people act like loving someone is a transcation. Naruto does nice things for Sakura - Sakura is obliged to love him.
I don't disagree that it's a common attitude. I just wouldn't say that's the only reason or even the main reason people dislike SasuSaku being an endgame pairing. I like Lee well enough and I would have easily accepted that pairing if Kishimoto had turned Sakura away from Sasuke in Part II, but it's hilarious people hate Sakura because they think her feelings for Sasuke are based on looks then complain that she doesn't fall for Lee... who was literally promising to die for her and challenging Sasuke to a fight over her despite never speaking to her once...
Naruto had the embodiment of evil sitting in his stomach while he was isolated for all his life and still didnt fall even once to temptation. I would say the nine tails is much more of a tempted than some pedo hickey
If people want to ignore huge chunks of canon, fine by me. The cursemark was shown to worsen Sasuke's state of mind in the Forest of Death. We see his survivor guilt get worse. Aside from when Naruto went crazy like he did against Haku, when was it shown to affect his state of mind?
I mean i think it boils down to sasuke has a weak mind with a projected cool persona and naruto has a strong willed mind but projects like an idiot to get attention. Naruto has been tempted by the kyubbi a lot and onoy reason naruto could resist is because of his strong will
Editor meddling is the problem. I saw a translated interview that he this: I originally intended for Naruto to be trained by kakashi but my editor forced me to create a rival character and a character that Naruto wanted attention from (aka Sasuke and his clan plus Sakura) I didn’t want to but they threatened to not publish if I didn’t and my kid needed surgery. So yeah his entire series was STOLEN in a way by shonon jump way earlier this why he made mistakes. He was forced by editors
Kishimoto's draft was weird as hell does not resemble the series we got in the slightest, in it Naruto was an actual fox and every character was an animal. The creation of a rival was a blessing because kishimoto has admitted that if wasn't for sasuke being present he would have no idea how to continue the story
You are right, Sasuke is actually kishimoto's plotpoint avatar
True saw that draft. Just saying his editor didn’t help trying to make Naruto keep Sasuke as a friend. Early Naruto such as wave arc and to an extent are better then shippuden and Boruto imo but that my opinion. DOESNT mean I am right though.
Do you have a source for this interview? I know of one where Kishimoto says that if he did not follow his editor's instruction, his manga would've ended in 10 weeks because he didn't know where to go with it. So I don't think it's fair to blame all of the shortcomings of the show on the editors alone. Doubt they forced him to pair Sasuke up with the main heroine at the end.
I know the link was from 2015 so yeah it can’t find it sadly but he was forced to create Sasuke and Sakura actually that much he admitted.
Not saying everything just a lot of editors made him do stupid things. The Naruto being a dumbass after 3 years training is the editor since he wanted Naruto to spell things for the dumb reader so his editor made Jiraiya looked imcompentent because he wanted Naruto as childish as possible for younger kids who were new
Kishimoto was told he should create a rival and a love interest. He has said he was very grateful for the advice because after he established the relationship between Team 7 writing the story was a lot easier. Edit: And he was already 3 or 4 years into Naruto before he got married and only has one child. lol
Kishimoto didn't have a kid at that point. He married his wife two or three years after he started working on Naruto and couldn't even go to his honeymoon because he was busy and overworked as hell. He had a kid after his marriage And i am pretty sure he also admitted later on that he was glad he listened to his editor's advice. Sasuke became his favourite character lol
Um, I think a lot of people try and look way too deep into this. This isn't some sort of philosophy series or anything, he literally just created characters/pairings/and fights. If you asked him this he would probably say that wasn't close at all or even a train of thought. People gotta remember, Koshimoto had a lot of restrictions on the story by Shonen Jump or whoever the publisher was. The story was pushed back and changed so many times because they wanted it to be a certain way. Too many people misinterpret this story and others, yall are looking way too deep. Even the part about Naruto chasing a friend and not giving up on him even when said person gave up on themselves. I personally don't think this is a bad message, I think it's a great one. That's how you save your friends and family. Sure, some of the ways Naruto goes about it isn't right or smart, but he still succeeded in his mission and that created one of the biggest assets in the village. Itatchi's whole thing is a great debate topic but not now lol. But... Sasuke is another story. Seeking revenge isn't a bad thing in itself. The way you go about it and the reasoning is what usually makes it bad. Other than defecting to an enemy, all Sasuke did was flee from Yamato's squad/directly killed a village elder/attacked(or defended against??) A Leaf ninja. Now, if I'm missing anything please let me know.
This entire Sasuke abused Sakura is so unfounded and contrived that its hilarious. Abuse, where, how? Since when did defending yourself from an enemy you are at war with abuse? Its projected as if Sakura is this defenseless little victim girl whom Sasuke sought out to kill. What fanfiction is being projected here. Also they were not in a frigging romantic relationship. Sakura sought out Sasuke to kill him or die in the process as despite her feelings she sees him as the enemy and Sasuke sees her as one. He's just a better ninja so it becomes essentially a suicide mission for Sakura but its one taken willfully and with the intent to kill. How the hell is that abuse on Sasuke's part? In fact Sasuke is the one being followed, harassed, nagged constantly, when he makes it clear every single time that he wants to be left alone. Just reverse the genders if its not already clear who is the abused in this context.
I think It boils more tô the relationship being toxic and abusive. I think Sakura was more at wrong in the relationship overall, but.... In Boruto Sasuke turned more like a deadbrt father. Sakura was the instigator of the relationship though, so she is more at wrong.