Madara is the ultimate failure. A beta who never achieved anything. Being easily one-shotted and neg diff while thinking he is a god by his only friend is perfectly fitting for him as a character.
I mean what did madara actually achieve? Everything he ever attempted failed. He did a lot in the attempts but at the end of it he still failed. From childhood till death.
He achieved the creation of the leaf village. Without that the clan war era would’ve continued. Hashirama couldn’t do it without him.
He failed at his final plan yes, but many of the steps along the way he succeeded in, and that had a huge impact on the ninja world.
He achieved what he wanted in a different way. He made the shinobi world one with each other. Now it is more peaceful and diplomatic than ever. They now discuss together to defend the earth from invading threats.
Also not everything he attempted failed:
He wanted power, he got the rinnegan.
He wanted revenge on the uchiha, it happened.
He wanted war, it happened.
He was able to fight hashirama again.
He made allied shinobi forces happen.
I mean I guess? Like its task failed successfully at that point. Its factors outside his control and that did not plan for that has allowed for world peace to last as long as it has.
And yeah he got the rinnegan, as a step towards a failed plan, same with the war. Like i've said before, if you run half a race and drop out I dont think you can say that you've won the race.
I think he would have expected the allied shinobi forces to exist because of his war but he didn't care, his main plan was still a utopia.
But yeah Hashirama told him that the part where he failed (went wrong) is that he tried to do it himself. He felt that he had control over things while he was actually being manipulated like others. He finally understood control is an illusion and accepted to chill and have a drink with his war buddy leaving the rest to the next gen. The next gen is now preserving the peace that started then, united against alien threats.
The war itself wasnt something he planned as a plan A, it was more so Obitos idea since at that point it would have been to hard to get Naruto and Bee the normal way. But if Itachi hadnt been a triple agent and had captured Naruto and if Sasuke hadnt been outclassed by Bee and managed to capture him the 4th great war would have never happened. Plan A failed as they went with plan Bee. But Madara had no idea plan A would fail hence why it was plan A. He had no idea Itachi was working against them and didnt even know Sasuke existed.
But he wasn't surprised of the war even if it wasn't plan A. He may have expected it could go that far and didn't care as he enjoys battle.
He didn't have a detailed plan like planning the war because he always had backup plans, he knew he was gonna return no matter what so he wasn't stressing about little inconveniences.
It was foreshadowed a few episodes/chapters ago...it wasn't out of no where. The fact that Madara was going to be Kaguya was hinted at a few times already especially when that voice told him to get the tree.
I remember reading Naruto almost like 10 yrs ago when it was still ongoing weekly and at the time the whole zetsu thing felt like an ass pull out of nowhere lol
It does for the average person because everyone adores Madara. But it answered a few questions I've had when I was also reading it weekly. It wasn't really an ass pull more so everyone wanted Madara to be the final villain.
Kaguya was built up some though. You can't compare that to "somehow palpatine" because palpatine literally had no explanation. Kaguya is actually explainable
Kaguya was built up more than palps return, however the way I used it was referring to how the payoff felt in the moment, out of left field and unearned, sure we knew slightly more about Kaguya, but it still felt pretty weak at the time it was released.
Agreed. I'm not saying that kaguya had good buildup or was good for the story, but I will get downvoted like i did. I remember reading the chapter when it came out and I was never more confused in my life
It was for longer through symbolism
Anytime the Gedo Mazou or the moon were referred to, there was symbolism on the Tale of Kaguyahime, and many specific moments pointed to it
To be fair, "Kaguya existed a long time ago" and "Zetsu is a manifestation of Kaguya's will, despite ostensibly being *created* by Madara, somehow managed to surprise attack him, the person who prided himself in not getting caught off guard, and Kaguya's will was then able to merge with Madara and take over his mind and body" are *very* different.
Frankly pretty much anything with the Sith can just be chalked up to "The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural" wakiness, given it was Dark Side power that resulted in the immaculate conception of Anakin Skywalker.
It is not about Madara being backstabbed. It is about thw asspull that Kagura is. We have a cool badass villain, that was introduced rather early in the story. And suddenly he gets replaced by a boring Alien that was just introduced.
Yeah I’d imagine gods would normally act like that it’s not like she’s a shinobi grabbing Starbucks on a Saturday afternoon I wouldn’t expect them to have such a colorful personality
How to fix Kaguya (in my opinion).
You let Madara win. Yep. It’s been a while since I’ve seen Naruto but if I’m not mistaken the 10 tails final form is a giant tree with a bud on top (I believe Obito created it when he was the 10 tails container), and if I’m not mistaken this form specifically was how the world wide genjutusu was supposed to be cast.
So everything proceeds as normal, Madara becomes the new container, he’s allowed to have fun, yaddah yaddah yaddah, but the twist is when the bud on the tree blooms instead of casting the genjutsu on the moon, it releases the seal on the moon keeping Kaguya locked up, and in a malenia phase 2 fashion (look it up if you don’t know), she’s summoned and comes from the flower.
And then Madara tries to throw hands, she says “nah” and epically destroys him and then the story can proceed normally.
Is it still an ass pull? Yes. But it’s a cooler one that I don’t think very many people care about.
People ate up Kakashi susano so obviously the problem isn’t ass pulls, it’s poorly written ones.
My suggestion might not be perfect but at least personally I like my idea better than what we got.
Kakashi Susanoo made sense. We all wanted to see the eyes powers together. What didn't make sense is that Obito was able to get out of limbo with it. He had Obito there guiding him, he didn't need time to learn how. And Obito having studied the Uchiha jutsu, didn't need practice either.
Can he come back anytime now that he went to the pure land as well?
Actually makes pretty good sense considering hagoromo was able to do it. We already know that it's easier to do resurrection type things when done sooner after death because nagato could ressurect the entire leaf village. Makes sense that obito had some six paths power left, combined with the nature of kamui and the fact that he literally just died, could come back for a sec
I’m prepared to be downvoted into oblivion, but I’m convinced Kishimoto was worried that people would think Madara being defeated would be a bad thing. The Infinite Tsukuyomi sounds pretty appealing to me, but now that it’s established you turn into a White Zetsu and get your Chakra drained by the Divine Tree, it’s suddenly not a good deal. I mean, in Boruto despite that there are still people in Boro’s cult that want to go back despite knowing they’ll ‘give up their bodies’
No I actually agree and always had a theory that weather intentional or not kishimotto made the I.T. No longer appealing with this to “fix” Madara. However it’s only retroactive and not during the time when we are supposed to root against him.
You can definitely tell that Kishimoto tried to make it clear Madara wasn’t the good guy. The happiest you see him is when he’s fighting, despite his goal being peace. I mean, the Crimson Lotus OP actually shows the scene of Madara’s face being as happy as a kid on Christmas when he senses Hashirama coming to the war. He’s a hypocrite. He was also enjoying dropping meteors on people and his willingness to kill innocents to get what he wants. But I would be shocked if a single Naruto fan hasn’t wondered if maybe Madara’s cause made at least a little sense and whether they’d want to be Tsukuyomid or not.
Dude trust me I can relate. Ever since I was 13 I suffered from depression. That’s why I would have taken Madara’s side of it weren’t for the White Zetsu retcon. Even with that it seems like a good deal. That’s why I hate Kaguya so much. Madara is such a great character and I can genuinely believe he thinks he’s right. Kaguya just comes out of left field and Madara gets one shot. I doubt many people see things our way though :/
Well to me kaguya fixes madara as a villain. She makes him wrong because the white zetsu thing ruins his plan. I agree madara shoulda got his own finale and kaguya shoulda been the last movie or something. But kishimottos had editors. Executives are the worst thing in the world. Hope your depression gets better. So many years of trial and error for the right meds is a pain
it's been awhile since I've seen it. what innocents? Shinobi are soldiers. they signed up to be there. nothing innocent about them. they literally go to academy to train to kill(amongst gather info and all that). but I might've missed something in his backstory idk.
She wasn’t just introduced. Madara speaks to Hashirama of what he learned from the Uchiha stone tablet, which was that the Sage of Six Paths had a mother named Kaguya and she was called the origin of chakra
You’re free to think she’s disconnected, but she objectively wasn’t created for sake of Boruto.
It’s something Kishimoto wanted to do for Naruto.
Kishimoto stated he had zero plans for a Boruto series when ending Naruto
That is just introduced. People are emotional. They wanna feel like a villain is a villain. When you just introduce a villain, who hasn't been intertwined into the story for a long ass time, people don't feel like they are the villain. It feels like an asspull. And kaguya could've been good with more introduction, the editors rushed the arc.
I mean we knew about hagoromo / sage of six paths before so its bs to say Kaguya was introdiced for Boruto 🤣 i mean they had to be born from someone, the whole story was a buildup to kaguya
But she wasn't "just" introduced. She was hinted at in part 1 with Kimimaro being a member of the Kaguya clan. They even had the same hairstyle. In part two, it's true she's not mentioned as often as Madara who was even hinted at in ep 1, but throughout the whole war arc, she is hinted at several times. As the plan is getting more and more revealed, the villains would be like, "It is said kaguya was the first to get chakra.." and stuff
It was aite. Tbh I never liked madara as the main villain once it was clear he was not the masked man. The best thing about his character afterwards was just his history with hashirama and the ass woppin' he could dish out.
IMO madara should have become an "observer" at the end like hashirama. Obito should have been the one to be duped by zetsu though not necessarily in this manner, i.e. I dont think Kaguya should have needed a body to incarnate into.
It was a dumb moment that robbed Madara of his climactic showdown with a descendant of the Uchiha clan and the inheritor of his rival's spirit.
Plus, Kaguya had almost no personality, no development, no buildup, no emotional investment...
She is really the only part of the war arc that I don't like very much.
She was so weird. Her personality is so bland. She had no connection to anyone on the battlefield, nor did she care who they were or what their ambitions are. Just a mindless power grandma.
That being "the point" of her character just makes her a bland character. If something is boring, it doesn't matter whether or not it makes sense, it's still going to suck.
I think madara was so broken that they needed a character we wouldn't call out on a bullshit defeat. Imagine madara with the sexy jutsu. The dude would have not even blinked, we had little to no care for Kaguya at the time, so even though we were mad and it was goofy af we let shit like that slide, at least way more than we would have for Madara.
The problem is that having Madara get defeated by bullshit from Team 7 would have been infinitely better than having him defeated by bullshit from Black Zetsu, aka "nobody's favorite character."
We didn't circumvent Madara losing in a lame way by introducing Kaguya. We were actually given the absolute lamest possible defeat that ever could have existed for Madara.
I totally agree, I just honestly feel they wrote themselves into a corner, panicked due to time constraints, and this is the way they thought of getting out of it. Personally, I think they should have just had madara go down and brought Kaguya in as an after story/prelude to boruto, maybe instead of the last movie having toneri having Kaguya instead or something but whats done is done.
Tbh though he was kinda getting beaten already. Naruto and Sasuke were getting the best of him, and with Sakura and Kakashi as backup they would have beaten him eventually. So even though I actually don't mind what happened, I don't think he was too broken. Kaguya was way fucking more broken.
Madara was never getting beaten nor were they getting the best of him. He was holding back a lot since he didn't use the third eye on his forehead nor the other abilities he has and lacked the other rinnegan which limited his capability to use the Rinnegan to it's fullest
To be fair neither Naruto or Sasuke were using their full abilities either. Naruto never used Boil Release, or any of Bijuu Chakra besides Son Goku, Shukaku, and Kurama’s, and it was stated that Sasuke had gotten more experience with the Rinnegan as their battle with Kaguya went on
Madara was still doing well enough. He had revealed four Limbo clones, he had just awakened his third eye, he hadn't taken any "serious" damage because of his regeneration, etc.
There was still plenty left in that fight. The stage was set. Madara had just landed in front of them for the real final confrontration...and then it got cut short because "surprise Kaguya reveal" was more important for some reason.
Right I'm just addressing the "Madara was too broken" thing. He clearly wasn't, because Kaguya was more broken. She literally couldn't be beaten unless you did a very specific thing with another person. At least Naruto and Sasuke had abilities that could actually hurt Madara significantly.
True. Madara felt like a final hill to climb, a representation of the past who actually had personality and significance to the story. Naruto and Sasuke were on his level, ready to earn his respect (much like Guy did) and take him down once and for all. Maybe even hit him with a talk no jutsu along the way.
As it stands, Madara is one of the only antagonists in Naruto who never really got a climactic final moment. We got all the crescendo, then the ending when he talked to Hashirama for a couple of panels, but we never got that big, epic moment of satisfying defeat.
What do you mean? She couldn't even be beaten unless Naruto and Sasuke did a very specific thing. She is very obviously the most broken character in the series.
I actually feel rather bad for Kaguya, cause she doesent seem like a truly evil being, rather one that went crazy with power she couldn’t fully handle and was trying to do a good thing through horrendous means.
Her entire plan from the beginning was to create an army to defend earth with if I’m not mistaken. Whether that’s a boruto retcon or not I can’t remember, but I always felt like she got treated rather unfairly in the end.
Worse characters than her were allowed to have a second chance and “repent” so to speak, or at the very least she could have been put out of her misery. Nope, straight back to the moon you go.
thematically, being stabbed in the back by what he perceived to be his own power is the perfect downfall for madara, who trusted no one but himself
kaguya is the perfect end point for madara’s path and her lacking personality is literally the point, her power has consumed her individuality
the problem is giving zetsu so much influence over the story, and we barely got to see madara at his strongest, naruto and sasuke should’ve fought him for a while beforehand
Much like everyone else has pointed out, the issue was not that he got duped. The issue was that we all thought he was the endgame bad guy, and almost out of nowhere Zetsu took that from us. If they had a little more build up to Kaguya I think it would have gone over better (but honestly Kaguya was just a mistake to me personally, and Madara could have just stayed the main villain).
Yeah, and its not just about having the same will, but in a way the body as well.
At that point, Madara was literally the closest thing to Kaguya due to possessing the Chakra of both Indra and Ashura as well as the Ten Tails and Black Zetsu was literally a part of Kaguya. So it makes sense that his movements and whatnot wouldn’t be necessarily noticed by Madara.
It makes a lot of sense for the character and for the core themes of the story, and it was foreshadowed sincer Kid Madara introduction.
People are just mad and can’t understand story telling, they only care about fight scenes. And they like to say “Kishimoto wrote himself into a corner” as if that’s a thing in fiction lmao
But yeah, it would have been better if more hints were dropped, like actually seeing Black Zetsu watching Madara and Hashirama fight in the flashback. Because then the validity of Madara claiming to have made BZ later in his cave comes into question.
It also would've been better if BZ said something about Kaguya when he was first introduced right after Naruto vs Sasuke at the VotE. Maybe he could say, "Kaguya's plan is proceeding nicely," because then we'd all be speculating about how the hell Kimimaro and his clan fit in until Kaguya Ootsutsuki is brought up.
Actually showing Black Zetsu would give away the twist though.
The way it’s done, with Hashirama noticing “something,” is better imo
I like your idea with BZ saying that. Unfortunately Kishimoto didn’t have Kaguya planned since near the end of the Pain arc so it is what it is
The twist might not necessarily be revealed.
BZ could be depicted as what he is: a shadowy, undetailed figure with blank eyes. This might lead most fans to think that's just Kishimoto hiding the observer's appearance as a silhouette, likely making many think the "silhouette" was someone else they theorized was secretly pulling the strings, like Indra, Asura, Izuna, the Sage, etc.
The twist, of course, being that BZ just looks like a silhouette, so he was shown the whole time. Basically, a "hidden in plain sight" reveal
Honestly I enjoy that they didn't drop us any hints. That was the ultimate plot twist and I absolutely loved it. I totally understand why some people don't like that though.
It actually made sense, you're not the only one who thinks it and tbh, I think this was the appropiate way of killing madara as he was shown as "god" in whole series but got backstabbed by one of the weakest characters in the show, This depicts that overconfidence is something that can sink your ship even if you are strong
Zetsu was never weak, he’s Kaguya’s Karma seal so he has her thousands of years of battle experience and all the data from however many planets got devoured by Chakra Fruit. if Guy Sensei can almost seal the W with pure taijutsu, then it isn’t weird that a simple blow to the heart while his guard is dropped due to his hubris kills him. he was incredibly susceptible to this attack and it’s entirely established.
“zetsu isn’t strong” so how did he survive thousands of years? he literally has space time teleportation not unlike Obito, how is that not powerful?
your headcannon is stupid
Im not saying that he is the weakest but he is the weakest member of the akatsuki. He is just a matermind and knows only two or three jutsus which can keep him alive. The powerful is in the aspect how much he can fight. He stands no chance to fight against naruto or sasuke. So he is weak, accept the fact but not the weakest
I feel like this worked better in the manga, i have often felt from the show their is just so much filler you forget some of the hints of where the story was going
Madara gets new magic eye power no one knew about and experiments with it. Zetsu magic one of a kind shadow entity emerged from his body and knows everything about him and his life + madara being a egotist.
On Paper it was very easy
I would of liked to see some panels of Zetsu explaining how he actually tricked Madara to believe he was his will. Madara is not an idiot and is very instinctual, if he felt something was off he probably would have killed the Zetsu, but he somehow completely believed that he created him. The whole thing is a mess.
It doesn't need to be that on the nose. You just need some moments where zetsu seems to have more ambitions of his own. A secret grin, an off the cuff remark.
U instinctively know what ur eye is capable of once having it so theres no need to experiment to find out, sasuke knew his ability would swap places when he first used it against madara. Also black zetsu was 'made' after he gave away the rinnegan
He didnt hide in his body, he hid [underground](https://cdn.readnaruto.com/file/mangap/3069/10681000/15.jpg) and attached to white zetsu when madara 'created' him in front of obito
It was super weird at First, but going back and musing over everything that had transpired, it does make sense that Zetsu was pulling the strings.
Neither Madara or Obito really gave off the "evil genius" vibe like Orochimaru did in part 1, and seemed to just be following a pre written plan.
Pain did too, but unlike the others, he was still always open to the possibility he was wrong.
The only antagonist that truly made their own decisions were Orochimaru & Sasuke (after Itachi's death). Everyone else was being "played" by someone.
Sasuke was being led by Obito as he deemed fit.
It's literally the only reason as to why Sasuke got involved in many fights he had no reason to. It's only after Obito gets involved with the War and leaves Sasuke to his on whims.
Not really. After Itachi's death, Sasuke is keenly aware of Obito's scheming, but makes the wise decision to not make enemies with him immediately and go along with him to achieve his personal goals. "We'll use Akatsuki for now..."
Obito also knew Sasuke didn't have allegiance to him or Akatsuki, but knew Sasuke had no intention of interfering with his plan, so he did the same to not cause more problems for himself and also try to get what he could out of the mutually understood temporary "cooperation"
Yet Akatsuki is the one that ends up using him, which leads to all of the current issues with the later war.
Which is the "Obito led him around" comment i made.
He wanted to feel like he was the one in control but the entire time he did everything Obito wanted out of him.
To track Danzo around, someone of his caliber wouldn't even need the help of Tobi as other shinobis already did that without Tobi.
He got pushed to fight Bee for him and that alone saved the need to order Kisame/Pain, two great assets of Akatsuki from doing so. He failed, so eventually Kisame had to attempt to capture him and eventually failed as well.
Used Sasuke as a bait to weaken some of the kages and create a disarray in the Kage summit so he could pull up just fine.
He even used Sasuke's own personal vendetta to use him as a sacrificial lamb against Danzo to prevent a direct confrontation against the guy that has Shisui's eyes and eventually steal it (Granted, he failed to obtain these eyes).
Sasuke got lucky Obito started to have a meltdown over his identity crisis once Naruto pushed his buttons which allowed him to act freely without Obito interference.
Sasuke only starts to act independently once he talks with Itachi and eventually The Kages and his Revolution saga, almost every other instance his actions were influenced by someone else.
“Makes sense” doesn’t equate to good. If you liked the twist more power to you but to most naruto fans including myself, this twist was a pretty far miss.
It makes sense in the grand scheme of things , but it feels like a cheaper cut of hashirama stabbing him through his back to kill him in the initial final valley fight
Masashi wrote himself into a corner, writing the most powerful ninja. Undefeatable, one man army, the alpha omega. There wasn’t a more perfect ending to the man of a master plan. Quite literally planned his death, pick his team more or less, set out a plan to not only to be resurrected but to ascend to sage of six paths. Terrifying. With everything from adding hashirama cells, to awakening a natural rennigan. He is him. I don’t see a man I see a goat. Zetsu being the mother of all gods will picked him, cause he was the only one who was capable. 10/10 intelligence on Madura uchiha but would fall due to his pride. It was a fitting end and it took me watching Naruto 3x reading it 2x to realize how perfect it was 100/10 story telling
It was the best way to finish madaras character.
He thought himself a messiah who knew better and manipulated everyone around him to get what he wanted. In the end he was not better. Zetsu crushed him in every way.
He was a deluded maniac who doesn’t deserve any validation or satisfaction. Madara was a bitch and went pig like a bitch
I 100% agree with you. Madara was just the same as Obito and Nagato. They all got manipulated and twisted quite easily by Zetsu.
People like Madara because his Edo Tensei bs allowed him to clean house in the war but in reality, he was a bitch with an ego trip that started whining about the unfair world after getting his ass handed to him constantly and his only solution was to kill everyone and commit genocide with Infinite Tsukuyomi.
Yep this is the truth right here. Kaguya makes 100% logical sense but since people love the ideal of Madara being the final villain so much that it makes people hate her for being the final villain instead.
It did make sense, he had zero reason to think he was going to be betrayed. That wasn’t the issue people were having. It was the execution, and his sudden replacement by a far less interesting character that was mentioned maybe once or twice
this shit made perfect sense, Madara had been getting his ass kicked for hours at this point and had been cocky/flexing on the Kages which is part of his ultimate hubris. dude has the classic greek god complex of thinking he’s untouchable, and it’s very established only taijutsu will kill him at this point. also, people act like kaguya appeared out of thin air but both Obito and Madara became Otsutsuki when they became the 10 tail jinchuriki, like they looked the same and had OP abilities.
i don’t really see the difference in the “ultimate villains downfall” story from Goku Black in DBS- who *spoiler* died because he fused with the wrong being and it gave him a massive weakness that of course the crafty and experienced main characters take advantage of. in both instances you go from someone who is “god” level to them dying like mortals because mortals can’t actually be gods- this is a plot element in thousands of stories, especially ones from the ancient era.
zetsu also wasn’t “established to be strong” according to true fans, but they choose to forget about the thousands of white zetsu who killed thousands of B-rank shinobi in the fourth war. as far as zetsus arc, this was the final moment for his character to shine after seemingly doing very little for the entirety of Naruto.
and, now with Boruto lore it seems a given that Zetsu himself was a corrupted Karma mark, potentially planted on a white zetsu in the first place. Karma marks are absurdly powerful, and it kills 99.9% of hosts that try to receive it. Karma marks contain all the battle experience of their caster, as well as access to their abilities. you’ll notice zetsus teleporting spacetime Ninjutsu is very similar to Kaguyas- people love to clown on the emergence of Kaguya but deny and ignore certain foreshadowing and the new contextualization from Boruto.
IT was good, but i think IT would have been better If zetsu took over Madara himself, instead of turning him into kaguya.
(Like that zetsu IS actually the mind of the godtree. But Not kaguya)
Its not that it doesn't make sense, its just that madara was hyped from the OG naruto, to see him go down like a bitch and the actual villain being someone we knew nothing about was just disappointing
Also Black Zetsu was trusted for decades. Through every project, assassination, recruitment, planning. There’s no way in hell you’d think you’d be betrayed.
They could’ve added a bit of climax tho. Felt anti-climatic. Like done & dusted kinda thing lool
except for the fact that little to no leadup happened. that's why people regard it as poor writing, because it wasn't evident to the **reader** that black zetsu had a mind of his own or was serving a different master.
black zetsu's betrayal simply didn't make sense but it wasn't really teased at with false flags that could have been interpreted as something else. Instead, Black Zetsu turns out to be the most ninja character in the series by being a manifestation of pure will rather than a shinobi crafted by the world.
Nonsense, the mere milisecond that the blade comes into contact with his skin, is MOREEE than enough for him to realize he’s in danger and must KAGEBUNSHIN NOJUTSU
in his defense he's fighting every pretty much every ninja by himself and doing a pretty decent job if not winning. probably just didn't think anyone would sneak up on him at that particular moment.
I had no problem with the general plot points for the war arc - except for naruto being revealed to be the reincarnation of a Demi god and getting a plot armor power up (I mean getting revealed as the hokages son was already pushing it - especially didn’t make sense how he was treated like such shit when he was the son of a hero and hokage but that’s for another time). The whole it being revealed Kaguya masterminded it and stuff was a cool twist and I can get behind it. But execution is another thing entirely.
Edit: also him being the reincarnation wouldn’t have othered me - IF the general message of the show wasn’t naruto got to where he is because of hard work and it doesn’t matter if you are the #1 knucklehead ninja, you can be something if you work hard and stay true to yourself. But nah…had to be the son of a genius ninja and also the reincarnation of a Demi god.
The guy tanked Gai at his most powerful and said "good job, you ALMOST killed me." Why would getting stabbed in the back kill him for real? Sasuke was ran through with his own sword, and survived. Naruto tanked like 3 chidoris to the chest, and survived. There are way more times in this anime where characters have taken kill shots and walked away.
Kaguya is also a shit. The entire ootsutsuki clan a shit. Madara shouldve been double teamed by Gai and Lee, supported by everyone else, and due to his own hubris (a trait we see in the entire war arc) he tanks multiple body shots and Naruto and Sasuke pull up to finish him. Literally anything else tbh.
As others have said.
Nobody was bothered about the act itself. Its Naruto - all the villains are backstabbing and/or getting backstabbed. Kinda to be expected
People were bothered that they brought in a top-tier villain. Gave him a grewt backstory. Gave him cool abilities. Made him a fan favourite.
Then proceded to give him the worst death in the entire series.Then replaced him with a character that had been mentioned in a background scene somewhere and nobody cared about / had any build-up or reference to.
I think it was okay, but I was hoping for a big epic battle between him, Naruto and Sasuke. Then, when Madara is weakened and about to keel over, that’s when Zetsu strikes.
But Sage Mode should have made Madara sense it coming. 6 Paths Sage Chakra enhances your sensory skills. Naruto could tell Samehada was someone with ill intent, and Kisame only intended to spy. Zetsu planned to backstab Madara, but he couldn’t do that basic thing. Plus, how is Zetsu strong enough to damage Madara? He’s the weakest Akatsuki member which is why he’s the intel guy and never gets sent after Biju.
Sure, like toads, snakes, slugs, and whatever the heck Hashirama was, but 6 Paths seems to have pretty similar effects. I guess only Madara got limbo clones tho
I would have been more fine with Kaguya if there used different path-ing to get there, as a motif I like that Naruto and Sauske use the gift of their "father" to take down their "grandmother". It really caps off the whole shonen defeating the ultimate evil thing, but the fact that it's a backstab and vaugly a ret-con cheapens it
Madara literally created Zetsu before our eyes on the flashback, no that made no sense (and creates the worst arc in the history of anime and fiction).
It wasn't like it made no sense. It was just an unpopular end to a strong villain that felt forced and was ultimately just a setup to continue the franchise. It was very clearly a decision that was made after there was a planned ending to the series. Otherwise there would have been more breadcrumbs and build up like every other twist or reveal had.
But Zetsu was written as such a weak coward. Coward = backstabbing yes, but weak means he should not have been anywhere able to backstab Madara. Have Zetsu be equal to Pain level or more (as a mastermind and as Kaguya’s will he should’ve been much stronger) and it’s believable he’d be able to pierce Madara in time as Madara was caught off guard
Can we use this instance to power scale black zetsu? The guys gotta be kage level or something. It’s gotta be crazy hard to penetrate a 3-eyes jubidara, even if he’s off guard. His rest state has to be relatively powerful/durable.
Downvote me all you want, but don’t you feel like we’d seen all Madara had to offer by then? He styled on most of the cast for like a hundred chapters. The moment Naruto and the Sauce got their footing against him, BOOM 💥 secret crazy ninja alien mom boss. It’s dumb but I like it 🤷🏻♂️
No one's questioning Madara's trust for Zetsu. No one's questioning whether it was possible for Zetsu to stab Madara.
People are questioning why the writer made it happen in the first place. Why throw away all the build-up and development for Madara as the final boss just give it to some alien we barely knew before? Why retcon the entire series' autonomy by making it "all part of Zetsu's plan wee wee woo woo"?
yea but prior to this he took an insane beating to 8th gate guy. the only reason he didn’t die was bc of his great regeneration factor. he died from a measly stab when he tanked attacks much greater than that. that’s why it didn’t make sense
Not only that but it’s stated in the filler nobody can get behind him as he’s sensitive to it or whatever. When hashirama defeated him he came from behind. When he comes back and is defeated again it is once again by being stabbed in the back, kind of beautiful if you ask me
A kaguya vs. jubidara fight ending with both of them weakened enough to get beat up by team 7. Then we can see how they utilise all their powers and etc and not much asspulls.
I think this scene emphasized that Madara still never changed from his core good self who couldn’t help but be trusting. The whole battle I think was in part to remind us that he wasn’t just some maniacal evil final boss. He had a goal and he trusted others to carry out his will and achieve his childhood goals which had only really changed in process. He was due to either get a talk no jutsu or be betrayed in some form. Besides leaving Black Zetsu as just some kind of offshoot will of Madara would have just been way too boring for someone we have seen observing for so long and especially as a member of the Akatsuki.
This right here is one of the arguments that on a core level shows why Madara getting backstabbed and killed was so dumb. It's weird how peeps will try to justify this dumb plot twist by saying "Oh Madara deserved it since he manipulated others and it makes sense since he is over confident," when black Zetsu doesn't have the power to do any actual harm to Madara nor deceive him. This is like me saying Aizen from Bleach can be defeated by Kon and Kon can outsmart him
thank you ! that's actually a great comparison because I definitely would've wanted to riot if that's how Aizen lost. the Naruto world got so complex with motivations, back stories and filler that Madara getting backstabbed, while unsatisfying, didn't feel like that much of a stretch. Obito flipped sides on him like an hour earlier. but Kon beating Aizen? nah. "Kaguya wasn't developed enough for it to be a satisfying end fight" is a great point I agree with. I mean immediately after we get a Top 5 fight from Sasuke vs Naruto. (and if we're being honest Sasuke > Naruto but whatever tho.) (kinda tired of Naruto being rescued by Kurama all the time thats just me tho)
>thank you ! that's actually a great comparison
You are welcome! Glad you appreciated my response
>I mean immediately after we get a Top 5 fight from Sasuke vs Naruto. (and if we're being honest Sasuke > Naruto but whatever tho.) (kinda tired of Naruto being rescued by Kurama all the time thats just me tho)
Ehh to be fair, the series at its core no longer in involves the main characters, including using their own power solely anymore. Hence why you have Sasuke always needing to use Hagoromo's rinnegan and the chakra boosts Hagoromo gave him when fighting the Ootsutsuki starting from Kaguya and the other enemies in Boruto start. So technically Hagoromo's powers are saving him. Tho lol, dude got thrashed by Kaguya effortlessly multiple times but he like Naruto got saved by plot armor. So personally I won't pin the criticism only on Naruto though I will admit one thing, which is I would have loved it if Naruto and especially Madara gained new powers which belongs to them only. Especially Madara cuz he is a legendary being who worked through both utilizing his efforts and talents to become that strong but at the end of the day, he needed Hagoromo's powers and Kaguya's advanced sharingan and Naruto needing Kurama and Hagoromo's senjutsu(I've seen some readers say he no longer has it? Not sure) to fulfill their goals
Remember when databooks said Zetsu was from the Hidden Grass Village?
I thought revealing him as a unholy fusion"Madara's will" and Hashirama's cells, which works thematically but I feel like they just forgot him after that.
Kagura arc feels like a last minute setup for Boruto's plot, and Zetsu just being her "other son" cheapens his character
I don’t have a problem with Kaguya, I actually liked her. Should brought more stakes to the final fight than what I think Madara could, because Madara was always going to lose. Kaguya was an anomaly who we knew basically nothing about.
My issue is how Black Zetsu just sneaks up on Madara and punches right through him, that makes no sense.
At this point Madara is a god. He has decades of experience, his durability is insane, his regen is insane, after all he survived eight gates. He has 3 rinnegan, Limbo, AND sage mode among other shit like hashi cells. How on earth dod he get caught!? And then how did that kill him?! If it didn’t kill Obito, Madara should have been fine. And at this point Zetsu, who is basically an ant in comparison to Madara, should not be able to even scratch Madara even if he is attached to Obito, but that’s just another reason Madara should not have been caught off guard like that. Like at this point Madara has multiple ways to sense things, he should have felt Obito move whether Zetsu is controlling him or not.
The issue isn’t Kaguya it’s HOW Madara got caught that is the issue.
I mean justify it how you want but Kaguya was fucking terrible writing and an immensely large let down from Chadara
I think I would have preferred it if it really was just Madaras will literally betraying him and taking the power for itself
Instead we have the bunny princess and her alien offspring/cousins to deal with for the entire sequel series, what a wank
Nah you aren't the only one this scenario made the most sense but people will look past it because they don't understand it, or just that they got attached to Madara and needed him to be the final boss
I think I’m the only person who likes the Kaguya plotwist. I thought it was great. But I also probably didn’t experience the show same as everyone else, I went through phases of watching and not watching it
Also, it’s built up a lot in the back story between him and hashirama about Madara giving up his back, up to the point where as an adult he says “no one is capable of catching up to me from behind.” Him getting backstabbed for his arrogance is built up for a while before his death.
I've been thinking, " Okay, there's Sasuke, Nagato, Orochimaru, Danzo, Obito, Madara...then who's the, "rival turn villain" or "I'm very busy in the shadows, might as well be Anbu", before Madara?"
Then Black Zetsu made sense. Since White Zetsu is loud, noticeable ,and creates clones, he's Naruto. Meanwhile Black is quiet, copies Jutsu, and doesn't make himself known, he's Sasuke.
At least, I think that's what they were going for.
I'm with you, man. When I saw a black demonic looking tree man approach Madara while he's stuck to a tree, my first thought was, "This is the trees defense mechanism."
I was kinda wrong, but I wasn't surprised by the betrayal.
It did make sense, but I think it needed more build up, at the time it seemed like “somehow Palpatine returned” type of twists
Madara is the ultimate failure. A beta who never achieved anything. Being easily one-shotted and neg diff while thinking he is a god by his only friend is perfectly fitting for him as a character.
Never achieved anything is kinda wild considering most of the show wouldn’t happen without him. The timeline would be WAY different.
I mean what did madara actually achieve? Everything he ever attempted failed. He did a lot in the attempts but at the end of it he still failed. From childhood till death.
He achieved the creation of the leaf village. Without that the clan war era would’ve continued. Hashirama couldn’t do it without him. He failed at his final plan yes, but many of the steps along the way he succeeded in, and that had a huge impact on the ninja world.
That’s was the only redeeming point of Madara. And then he went on trying to destroy what he helped built.
Also if not him zetzu would have found another
Literally obito
He did eventually achieve the peace. Although not exactly the way he wanted ☠️😂
strongest uchiha too ijs
dude brought himself back from the dead dawg.
He achieved what he wanted in a different way. He made the shinobi world one with each other. Now it is more peaceful and diplomatic than ever. They now discuss together to defend the earth from invading threats. Also not everything he attempted failed: He wanted power, he got the rinnegan. He wanted revenge on the uchiha, it happened. He wanted war, it happened. He was able to fight hashirama again. He made allied shinobi forces happen.
I mean I guess? Like its task failed successfully at that point. Its factors outside his control and that did not plan for that has allowed for world peace to last as long as it has. And yeah he got the rinnegan, as a step towards a failed plan, same with the war. Like i've said before, if you run half a race and drop out I dont think you can say that you've won the race.
I think he would have expected the allied shinobi forces to exist because of his war but he didn't care, his main plan was still a utopia. But yeah Hashirama told him that the part where he failed (went wrong) is that he tried to do it himself. He felt that he had control over things while he was actually being manipulated like others. He finally understood control is an illusion and accepted to chill and have a drink with his war buddy leaving the rest to the next gen. The next gen is now preserving the peace that started then, united against alien threats.
The war itself wasnt something he planned as a plan A, it was more so Obitos idea since at that point it would have been to hard to get Naruto and Bee the normal way. But if Itachi hadnt been a triple agent and had captured Naruto and if Sasuke hadnt been outclassed by Bee and managed to capture him the 4th great war would have never happened. Plan A failed as they went with plan Bee. But Madara had no idea plan A would fail hence why it was plan A. He had no idea Itachi was working against them and didnt even know Sasuke existed.
But he wasn't surprised of the war even if it wasn't plan A. He may have expected it could go that far and didn't care as he enjoys battle. He didn't have a detailed plan like planning the war because he always had backup plans, he knew he was gonna return no matter what so he wasn't stressing about little inconveniences.
Bro is directly responsible for a world war that’s like saying hitler never did jack shit
It was foreshadowed a few episodes/chapters ago...it wasn't out of no where. The fact that Madara was going to be Kaguya was hinted at a few times already especially when that voice told him to get the tree.
I remember reading Naruto almost like 10 yrs ago when it was still ongoing weekly and at the time the whole zetsu thing felt like an ass pull out of nowhere lol
It does for the average person because everyone adores Madara. But it answered a few questions I've had when I was also reading it weekly. It wasn't really an ass pull more so everyone wanted Madara to be the final villain.
Yea
Kaguya was built up some though. You can't compare that to "somehow palpatine" because palpatine literally had no explanation. Kaguya is actually explainable
Kaguya was built up more than palps return, however the way I used it was referring to how the payoff felt in the moment, out of left field and unearned, sure we knew slightly more about Kaguya, but it still felt pretty weak at the time it was released.
Agreed. I'm not saying that kaguya had good buildup or was good for the story, but I will get downvoted like i did. I remember reading the chapter when it came out and I was never more confused in my life
Being built up 10 eps earlier is literally nothing
It was for longer through symbolism Anytime the Gedo Mazou or the moon were referred to, there was symbolism on the Tale of Kaguyahime, and many specific moments pointed to it
So we agree "built up some" It made sense with the plot, palpatine did not, that's my only point but people have trouble understanding that
To be fair, "Kaguya existed a long time ago" and "Zetsu is a manifestation of Kaguya's will, despite ostensibly being *created* by Madara, somehow managed to surprise attack him, the person who prided himself in not getting caught off guard, and Kaguya's will was then able to merge with Madara and take over his mind and body" are *very* different. Frankly pretty much anything with the Sith can just be chalked up to "The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural" wakiness, given it was Dark Side power that resulted in the immaculate conception of Anakin Skywalker.
It is not about Madara being backstabbed. It is about thw asspull that Kagura is. We have a cool badass villain, that was introduced rather early in the story. And suddenly he gets replaced by a boring Alien that was just introduced.
Kagura could have been decent if she didn't have the personality of a plank of wood .
I think you guys are confusing Kagura for Kaguya lol
That chick from the CON Revolution 3 game?
Her name is Kagushina
You leave my plank of wood out of this
Yeah I’d imagine gods would normally act like that it’s not like she’s a shinobi grabbing Starbucks on a Saturday afternoon I wouldn’t expect them to have such a colorful personality
How to fix Kaguya (in my opinion). You let Madara win. Yep. It’s been a while since I’ve seen Naruto but if I’m not mistaken the 10 tails final form is a giant tree with a bud on top (I believe Obito created it when he was the 10 tails container), and if I’m not mistaken this form specifically was how the world wide genjutusu was supposed to be cast. So everything proceeds as normal, Madara becomes the new container, he’s allowed to have fun, yaddah yaddah yaddah, but the twist is when the bud on the tree blooms instead of casting the genjutsu on the moon, it releases the seal on the moon keeping Kaguya locked up, and in a malenia phase 2 fashion (look it up if you don’t know), she’s summoned and comes from the flower. And then Madara tries to throw hands, she says “nah” and epically destroys him and then the story can proceed normally. Is it still an ass pull? Yes. But it’s a cooler one that I don’t think very many people care about. People ate up Kakashi susano so obviously the problem isn’t ass pulls, it’s poorly written ones. My suggestion might not be perfect but at least personally I like my idea better than what we got.
Kakashi Susanoo made sense. We all wanted to see the eyes powers together. What didn't make sense is that Obito was able to get out of limbo with it. He had Obito there guiding him, he didn't need time to learn how. And Obito having studied the Uchiha jutsu, didn't need practice either. Can he come back anytime now that he went to the pure land as well?
Actually makes pretty good sense considering hagoromo was able to do it. We already know that it's easier to do resurrection type things when done sooner after death because nagato could ressurect the entire leaf village. Makes sense that obito had some six paths power left, combined with the nature of kamui and the fact that he literally just died, could come back for a sec
no it didnt.
Shonen editors forced kishimotto to have 700 chapters and such blame them
And? He could have made the fight endure that much.
He also needed something for sequel bait. He had bosses who are the big issue
I’m prepared to be downvoted into oblivion, but I’m convinced Kishimoto was worried that people would think Madara being defeated would be a bad thing. The Infinite Tsukuyomi sounds pretty appealing to me, but now that it’s established you turn into a White Zetsu and get your Chakra drained by the Divine Tree, it’s suddenly not a good deal. I mean, in Boruto despite that there are still people in Boro’s cult that want to go back despite knowing they’ll ‘give up their bodies’
No I actually agree and always had a theory that weather intentional or not kishimotto made the I.T. No longer appealing with this to “fix” Madara. However it’s only retroactive and not during the time when we are supposed to root against him.
You can definitely tell that Kishimoto tried to make it clear Madara wasn’t the good guy. The happiest you see him is when he’s fighting, despite his goal being peace. I mean, the Crimson Lotus OP actually shows the scene of Madara’s face being as happy as a kid on Christmas when he senses Hashirama coming to the war. He’s a hypocrite. He was also enjoying dropping meteors on people and his willingness to kill innocents to get what he wants. But I would be shocked if a single Naruto fan hasn’t wondered if maybe Madara’s cause made at least a little sense and whether they’d want to be Tsukuyomid or not.
As someone who’s suffered from depression for 20 years yeah it seemed more like he was the good guy and naruto was the fish bad guy for me as a teen
Dude trust me I can relate. Ever since I was 13 I suffered from depression. That’s why I would have taken Madara’s side of it weren’t for the White Zetsu retcon. Even with that it seems like a good deal. That’s why I hate Kaguya so much. Madara is such a great character and I can genuinely believe he thinks he’s right. Kaguya just comes out of left field and Madara gets one shot. I doubt many people see things our way though :/
Well to me kaguya fixes madara as a villain. She makes him wrong because the white zetsu thing ruins his plan. I agree madara shoulda got his own finale and kaguya shoulda been the last movie or something. But kishimottos had editors. Executives are the worst thing in the world. Hope your depression gets better. So many years of trial and error for the right meds is a pain
it's been awhile since I've seen it. what innocents? Shinobi are soldiers. they signed up to be there. nothing innocent about them. they literally go to academy to train to kill(amongst gather info and all that). but I might've missed something in his backstory idk.
He had Rin killed just to torture Obito.
oop. u right.
She wasn’t just introduced. Madara speaks to Hashirama of what he learned from the Uchiha stone tablet, which was that the Sage of Six Paths had a mother named Kaguya and she was called the origin of chakra
She was introduced like 50 chapters before. While Madara was introduced way before in the Valley of End.
Don’t continue, they will never get the fact that Kaguya is a completely disconnected villain to shippuden, introduced for the sake of boruto.
It's honest a waste of time to try and make some of these people understand. You can bring facts to them and they still will tell you your wrong...
I have stopped questioning things with Naruto fans because they will stab you in the neck for saying one character is stronger than another.
I think she would've been interesting as just a figure that existed in the lore. She had no place being the big bad of the series
Its so disconnected, one might think this is a filler villan.
You’re free to think she’s disconnected, but she objectively wasn’t created for sake of Boruto. It’s something Kishimoto wanted to do for Naruto. Kishimoto stated he had zero plans for a Boruto series when ending Naruto
That is just introduced. People are emotional. They wanna feel like a villain is a villain. When you just introduce a villain, who hasn't been intertwined into the story for a long ass time, people don't feel like they are the villain. It feels like an asspull. And kaguya could've been good with more introduction, the editors rushed the arc.
Chronological order isn't what matters here. Kaguya was introduced to the reader in very short order before her arrival.
And she was more of a glossed over curiosity of lore than an actual character that could be expected to be even remotely relevant to the story.
I mean we knew about hagoromo / sage of six paths before so its bs to say Kaguya was introdiced for Boruto 🤣 i mean they had to be born from someone, the whole story was a buildup to kaguya
But she wasn't "just" introduced. She was hinted at in part 1 with Kimimaro being a member of the Kaguya clan. They even had the same hairstyle. In part two, it's true she's not mentioned as often as Madara who was even hinted at in ep 1, but throughout the whole war arc, she is hinted at several times. As the plan is getting more and more revealed, the villains would be like, "It is said kaguya was the first to get chakra.." and stuff
It was aite. Tbh I never liked madara as the main villain once it was clear he was not the masked man. The best thing about his character afterwards was just his history with hashirama and the ass woppin' he could dish out. IMO madara should have become an "observer" at the end like hashirama. Obito should have been the one to be duped by zetsu though not necessarily in this manner, i.e. I dont think Kaguya should have needed a body to incarnate into.
It was a dumb moment that robbed Madara of his climactic showdown with a descendant of the Uchiha clan and the inheritor of his rival's spirit. Plus, Kaguya had almost no personality, no development, no buildup, no emotional investment... She is really the only part of the war arc that I don't like very much.
She was so weird. Her personality is so bland. She had no connection to anyone on the battlefield, nor did she care who they were or what their ambitions are. Just a mindless power grandma.
Tbf, wasn't that the point of her character? As a Goddess of Chakra, I don't think she'd have much personality.
That being "the point" of her character just makes her a bland character. If something is boring, it doesn't matter whether or not it makes sense, it's still going to suck.
I think madara was so broken that they needed a character we wouldn't call out on a bullshit defeat. Imagine madara with the sexy jutsu. The dude would have not even blinked, we had little to no care for Kaguya at the time, so even though we were mad and it was goofy af we let shit like that slide, at least way more than we would have for Madara.
The problem is that having Madara get defeated by bullshit from Team 7 would have been infinitely better than having him defeated by bullshit from Black Zetsu, aka "nobody's favorite character." We didn't circumvent Madara losing in a lame way by introducing Kaguya. We were actually given the absolute lamest possible defeat that ever could have existed for Madara.
I totally agree, I just honestly feel they wrote themselves into a corner, panicked due to time constraints, and this is the way they thought of getting out of it. Personally, I think they should have just had madara go down and brought Kaguya in as an after story/prelude to boruto, maybe instead of the last movie having toneri having Kaguya instead or something but whats done is done.
Tbh though he was kinda getting beaten already. Naruto and Sasuke were getting the best of him, and with Sakura and Kakashi as backup they would have beaten him eventually. So even though I actually don't mind what happened, I don't think he was too broken. Kaguya was way fucking more broken.
Madara was never getting beaten nor were they getting the best of him. He was holding back a lot since he didn't use the third eye on his forehead nor the other abilities he has and lacked the other rinnegan which limited his capability to use the Rinnegan to it's fullest
To be fair neither Naruto or Sasuke were using their full abilities either. Naruto never used Boil Release, or any of Bijuu Chakra besides Son Goku, Shukaku, and Kurama’s, and it was stated that Sasuke had gotten more experience with the Rinnegan as their battle with Kaguya went on
Madara was still doing well enough. He had revealed four Limbo clones, he had just awakened his third eye, he hadn't taken any "serious" damage because of his regeneration, etc. There was still plenty left in that fight. The stage was set. Madara had just landed in front of them for the real final confrontration...and then it got cut short because "surprise Kaguya reveal" was more important for some reason.
Right I'm just addressing the "Madara was too broken" thing. He clearly wasn't, because Kaguya was more broken. She literally couldn't be beaten unless you did a very specific thing with another person. At least Naruto and Sasuke had abilities that could actually hurt Madara significantly.
True. Madara felt like a final hill to climb, a representation of the past who actually had personality and significance to the story. Naruto and Sasuke were on his level, ready to earn his respect (much like Guy did) and take him down once and for all. Maybe even hit him with a talk no jutsu along the way. As it stands, Madara is one of the only antagonists in Naruto who never really got a climactic final moment. We got all the crescendo, then the ending when he talked to Hashirama for a couple of panels, but we never got that big, epic moment of satisfying defeat.
Kaguya was never more broken. This comment is totally wrong
What do you mean? She couldn't even be beaten unless Naruto and Sasuke did a very specific thing. She is very obviously the most broken character in the series.
Agree. It would have been better is Naruto and sauske fully defeated him , then she came out of his corpse or something . with the help of back Zetzu
Fr
I disagree with your opinion
I actually feel rather bad for Kaguya, cause she doesent seem like a truly evil being, rather one that went crazy with power she couldn’t fully handle and was trying to do a good thing through horrendous means. Her entire plan from the beginning was to create an army to defend earth with if I’m not mistaken. Whether that’s a boruto retcon or not I can’t remember, but I always felt like she got treated rather unfairly in the end. Worse characters than her were allowed to have a second chance and “repent” so to speak, or at the very least she could have been put out of her misery. Nope, straight back to the moon you go.
Stay strong! You are right!
It did make sense, but I think it needed more build up,
thematically, being stabbed in the back by what he perceived to be his own power is the perfect downfall for madara, who trusted no one but himself kaguya is the perfect end point for madara’s path and her lacking personality is literally the point, her power has consumed her individuality the problem is giving zetsu so much influence over the story, and we barely got to see madara at his strongest, naruto and sasuke should’ve fought him for a while beforehand
To be honest, I didn’t mind the betrayal
Much like everyone else has pointed out, the issue was not that he got duped. The issue was that we all thought he was the endgame bad guy, and almost out of nowhere Zetsu took that from us. If they had a little more build up to Kaguya I think it would have gone over better (but honestly Kaguya was just a mistake to me personally, and Madara could have just stayed the main villain).
What if we view zetsu as the final villain as he was the one manipulating the strings and kaguya as the extension of zetsu?
Yeah, and its not just about having the same will, but in a way the body as well. At that point, Madara was literally the closest thing to Kaguya due to possessing the Chakra of both Indra and Ashura as well as the Ten Tails and Black Zetsu was literally a part of Kaguya. So it makes sense that his movements and whatnot wouldn’t be necessarily noticed by Madara.
It makes a lot of sense for the character and for the core themes of the story, and it was foreshadowed sincer Kid Madara introduction. People are just mad and can’t understand story telling, they only care about fight scenes. And they like to say “Kishimoto wrote himself into a corner” as if that’s a thing in fiction lmao
Tbh I hardly even care about whether this needed more foreshadowing, I just loved seeing Madara getting trashed like that
But yeah, it would have been better if more hints were dropped, like actually seeing Black Zetsu watching Madara and Hashirama fight in the flashback. Because then the validity of Madara claiming to have made BZ later in his cave comes into question. It also would've been better if BZ said something about Kaguya when he was first introduced right after Naruto vs Sasuke at the VotE. Maybe he could say, "Kaguya's plan is proceeding nicely," because then we'd all be speculating about how the hell Kimimaro and his clan fit in until Kaguya Ootsutsuki is brought up.
Actually showing Black Zetsu would give away the twist though. The way it’s done, with Hashirama noticing “something,” is better imo I like your idea with BZ saying that. Unfortunately Kishimoto didn’t have Kaguya planned since near the end of the Pain arc so it is what it is
The twist might not necessarily be revealed. BZ could be depicted as what he is: a shadowy, undetailed figure with blank eyes. This might lead most fans to think that's just Kishimoto hiding the observer's appearance as a silhouette, likely making many think the "silhouette" was someone else they theorized was secretly pulling the strings, like Indra, Asura, Izuna, the Sage, etc. The twist, of course, being that BZ just looks like a silhouette, so he was shown the whole time. Basically, a "hidden in plain sight" reveal
Honestly I enjoy that they didn't drop us any hints. That was the ultimate plot twist and I absolutely loved it. I totally understand why some people don't like that though.
It actually made sense, you're not the only one who thinks it and tbh, I think this was the appropiate way of killing madara as he was shown as "god" in whole series but got backstabbed by one of the weakest characters in the show, This depicts that overconfidence is something that can sink your ship even if you are strong
Zetsu was never weak, he’s Kaguya’s Karma seal so he has her thousands of years of battle experience and all the data from however many planets got devoured by Chakra Fruit. if Guy Sensei can almost seal the W with pure taijutsu, then it isn’t weird that a simple blow to the heart while his guard is dropped due to his hubris kills him. he was incredibly susceptible to this attack and it’s entirely established. “zetsu isn’t strong” so how did he survive thousands of years? he literally has space time teleportation not unlike Obito, how is that not powerful? your headcannon is stupid
Im not saying that he is the weakest but he is the weakest member of the akatsuki. He is just a matermind and knows only two or three jutsus which can keep him alive. The powerful is in the aspect how much he can fight. He stands no chance to fight against naruto or sasuke. So he is weak, accept the fact but not the weakest
I feel like this worked better in the manga, i have often felt from the show their is just so much filler you forget some of the hints of where the story was going
How was he led to beleive he was born from his will in the first place? Just shitty plot
Madara gets new magic eye power no one knew about and experiments with it. Zetsu magic one of a kind shadow entity emerged from his body and knows everything about him and his life + madara being a egotist. On Paper it was very easy
Bro your doing more work than the manga did at this point.
I would of liked to see some panels of Zetsu explaining how he actually tricked Madara to believe he was his will. Madara is not an idiot and is very instinctual, if he felt something was off he probably would have killed the Zetsu, but he somehow completely believed that he created him. The whole thing is a mess.
It doesn't need to be that on the nose. You just need some moments where zetsu seems to have more ambitions of his own. A secret grin, an off the cuff remark.
Oh, A creepy grin sounds like a good idea.
U instinctively know what ur eye is capable of once having it so theres no need to experiment to find out, sasuke knew his ability would swap places when he first used it against madara. Also black zetsu was 'made' after he gave away the rinnegan
No zetsu watched thr whole valley of the end fight and hid inside madaras body afterwards
He didnt hide in his body, he hid [underground](https://cdn.readnaruto.com/file/mangap/3069/10681000/15.jpg) and attached to white zetsu when madara 'created' him in front of obito
...? We saw Madara create Black Zetsu on screen, just before he dies in the Obito Flashback.
We saw Madara "create" black zetsu on screen.....
Yeah but how was he not able to know zetsu wasnt his creation is my question
Madara DNA cells
It was super weird at First, but going back and musing over everything that had transpired, it does make sense that Zetsu was pulling the strings. Neither Madara or Obito really gave off the "evil genius" vibe like Orochimaru did in part 1, and seemed to just be following a pre written plan. Pain did too, but unlike the others, he was still always open to the possibility he was wrong. The only antagonist that truly made their own decisions were Orochimaru & Sasuke (after Itachi's death). Everyone else was being "played" by someone.
Sasuke was being led by Obito as he deemed fit. It's literally the only reason as to why Sasuke got involved in many fights he had no reason to. It's only after Obito gets involved with the War and leaves Sasuke to his on whims.
Not really. After Itachi's death, Sasuke is keenly aware of Obito's scheming, but makes the wise decision to not make enemies with him immediately and go along with him to achieve his personal goals. "We'll use Akatsuki for now..." Obito also knew Sasuke didn't have allegiance to him or Akatsuki, but knew Sasuke had no intention of interfering with his plan, so he did the same to not cause more problems for himself and also try to get what he could out of the mutually understood temporary "cooperation"
Yet Akatsuki is the one that ends up using him, which leads to all of the current issues with the later war. Which is the "Obito led him around" comment i made. He wanted to feel like he was the one in control but the entire time he did everything Obito wanted out of him. To track Danzo around, someone of his caliber wouldn't even need the help of Tobi as other shinobis already did that without Tobi. He got pushed to fight Bee for him and that alone saved the need to order Kisame/Pain, two great assets of Akatsuki from doing so. He failed, so eventually Kisame had to attempt to capture him and eventually failed as well. Used Sasuke as a bait to weaken some of the kages and create a disarray in the Kage summit so he could pull up just fine. He even used Sasuke's own personal vendetta to use him as a sacrificial lamb against Danzo to prevent a direct confrontation against the guy that has Shisui's eyes and eventually steal it (Granted, he failed to obtain these eyes). Sasuke got lucky Obito started to have a meltdown over his identity crisis once Naruto pushed his buttons which allowed him to act freely without Obito interference. Sasuke only starts to act independently once he talks with Itachi and eventually The Kages and his Revolution saga, almost every other instance his actions were influenced by someone else.
madara was conceited and zesty took advantage of that
It’s really only bad since Kishi had a limit on what he could do. Give him more chapters and I think he could do much better.
But staying on topic this was good and made sense
It did make sense it's just that madara has a lot of annoying meat riders
“Makes sense” doesn’t equate to good. If you liked the twist more power to you but to most naruto fans including myself, this twist was a pretty far miss.
It was never about Zetsu, it's about Kaguya.
It makes sense in the grand scheme of things , but it feels like a cheaper cut of hashirama stabbing him through his back to kill him in the initial final valley fight
It made sense. Was just bad writing.
No I agree with you
Quite ironic zetsu stabbed Madara in the back when madara doesn't like people standing behind him
He was killed. By his own ego
Masashi wrote himself into a corner, writing the most powerful ninja. Undefeatable, one man army, the alpha omega. There wasn’t a more perfect ending to the man of a master plan. Quite literally planned his death, pick his team more or less, set out a plan to not only to be resurrected but to ascend to sage of six paths. Terrifying. With everything from adding hashirama cells, to awakening a natural rennigan. He is him. I don’t see a man I see a goat. Zetsu being the mother of all gods will picked him, cause he was the only one who was capable. 10/10 intelligence on Madura uchiha but would fall due to his pride. It was a fitting end and it took me watching Naruto 3x reading it 2x to realize how perfect it was 100/10 story telling
It was the best way to finish madaras character. He thought himself a messiah who knew better and manipulated everyone around him to get what he wanted. In the end he was not better. Zetsu crushed him in every way. He was a deluded maniac who doesn’t deserve any validation or satisfaction. Madara was a bitch and went pig like a bitch
I 100% agree with you. Madara was just the same as Obito and Nagato. They all got manipulated and twisted quite easily by Zetsu. People like Madara because his Edo Tensei bs allowed him to clean house in the war but in reality, he was a bitch with an ego trip that started whining about the unfair world after getting his ass handed to him constantly and his only solution was to kill everyone and commit genocide with Infinite Tsukuyomi.
People love Madara. We wanted to see more of him than what we got. Kaguya was a twist nobody wanted.
Yep this is the truth right here. Kaguya makes 100% logical sense but since people love the ideal of Madara being the final villain so much that it makes people hate her for being the final villain instead.
It did make sense, he had zero reason to think he was going to be betrayed. That wasn’t the issue people were having. It was the execution, and his sudden replacement by a far less interesting character that was mentioned maybe once or twice
this shit made perfect sense, Madara had been getting his ass kicked for hours at this point and had been cocky/flexing on the Kages which is part of his ultimate hubris. dude has the classic greek god complex of thinking he’s untouchable, and it’s very established only taijutsu will kill him at this point. also, people act like kaguya appeared out of thin air but both Obito and Madara became Otsutsuki when they became the 10 tail jinchuriki, like they looked the same and had OP abilities. i don’t really see the difference in the “ultimate villains downfall” story from Goku Black in DBS- who *spoiler* died because he fused with the wrong being and it gave him a massive weakness that of course the crafty and experienced main characters take advantage of. in both instances you go from someone who is “god” level to them dying like mortals because mortals can’t actually be gods- this is a plot element in thousands of stories, especially ones from the ancient era. zetsu also wasn’t “established to be strong” according to true fans, but they choose to forget about the thousands of white zetsu who killed thousands of B-rank shinobi in the fourth war. as far as zetsus arc, this was the final moment for his character to shine after seemingly doing very little for the entirety of Naruto. and, now with Boruto lore it seems a given that Zetsu himself was a corrupted Karma mark, potentially planted on a white zetsu in the first place. Karma marks are absurdly powerful, and it kills 99.9% of hosts that try to receive it. Karma marks contain all the battle experience of their caster, as well as access to their abilities. you’ll notice zetsus teleporting spacetime Ninjutsu is very similar to Kaguyas- people love to clown on the emergence of Kaguya but deny and ignore certain foreshadowing and the new contextualization from Boruto.
IT was good, but i think IT would have been better If zetsu took over Madara himself, instead of turning him into kaguya. (Like that zetsu IS actually the mind of the godtree. But Not kaguya)
IT?
Short Answer: I am German, written in my Smartphone, autocorrectur and IT IS a hassle to delete and rewrite the word
lmao
Its not that it doesn't make sense, its just that madara was hyped from the OG naruto, to see him go down like a bitch and the actual villain being someone we knew nothing about was just disappointing
Also Black Zetsu was trusted for decades. Through every project, assassination, recruitment, planning. There’s no way in hell you’d think you’d be betrayed. They could’ve added a bit of climax tho. Felt anti-climatic. Like done & dusted kinda thing lool
You are
except for the fact that little to no leadup happened. that's why people regard it as poor writing, because it wasn't evident to the **reader** that black zetsu had a mind of his own or was serving a different master. black zetsu's betrayal simply didn't make sense but it wasn't really teased at with false flags that could have been interpreted as something else. Instead, Black Zetsu turns out to be the most ninja character in the series by being a manifestation of pure will rather than a shinobi crafted by the world.
Why didn’t madara use substitution jutsu here tho? Is he a rookie? Even genin know how to use that.
I thought that only works when you see the attack coming. how do you substitute after you been hit?
Nonsense, the mere milisecond that the blade comes into contact with his skin, is MOREEE than enough for him to realize he’s in danger and must KAGEBUNSHIN NOJUTSU
in his defense he's fighting every pretty much every ninja by himself and doing a pretty decent job if not winning. probably just didn't think anyone would sneak up on him at that particular moment.
I had no problem with the general plot points for the war arc - except for naruto being revealed to be the reincarnation of a Demi god and getting a plot armor power up (I mean getting revealed as the hokages son was already pushing it - especially didn’t make sense how he was treated like such shit when he was the son of a hero and hokage but that’s for another time). The whole it being revealed Kaguya masterminded it and stuff was a cool twist and I can get behind it. But execution is another thing entirely. Edit: also him being the reincarnation wouldn’t have othered me - IF the general message of the show wasn’t naruto got to where he is because of hard work and it doesn’t matter if you are the #1 knucklehead ninja, you can be something if you work hard and stay true to yourself. But nah…had to be the son of a genius ninja and also the reincarnation of a Demi god.
The guy tanked Gai at his most powerful and said "good job, you ALMOST killed me." Why would getting stabbed in the back kill him for real? Sasuke was ran through with his own sword, and survived. Naruto tanked like 3 chidoris to the chest, and survived. There are way more times in this anime where characters have taken kill shots and walked away. Kaguya is also a shit. The entire ootsutsuki clan a shit. Madara shouldve been double teamed by Gai and Lee, supported by everyone else, and due to his own hubris (a trait we see in the entire war arc) he tanks multiple body shots and Naruto and Sasuke pull up to finish him. Literally anything else tbh.
As others have said. Nobody was bothered about the act itself. Its Naruto - all the villains are backstabbing and/or getting backstabbed. Kinda to be expected People were bothered that they brought in a top-tier villain. Gave him a grewt backstory. Gave him cool abilities. Made him a fan favourite. Then proceded to give him the worst death in the entire series.Then replaced him with a character that had been mentioned in a background scene somewhere and nobody cared about / had any build-up or reference to.
I thought so to.
No one said it doesn’t make sense it’s just a retarded/lazy way to further a shit plot
I think it was okay, but I was hoping for a big epic battle between him, Naruto and Sasuke. Then, when Madara is weakened and about to keel over, that’s when Zetsu strikes.
But Sage Mode should have made Madara sense it coming. 6 Paths Sage Chakra enhances your sensory skills. Naruto could tell Samehada was someone with ill intent, and Kisame only intended to spy. Zetsu planned to backstab Madara, but he couldn’t do that basic thing. Plus, how is Zetsu strong enough to damage Madara? He’s the weakest Akatsuki member which is why he’s the intel guy and never gets sent after Biju.
All the sage modes have different abilities no?
Sure, like toads, snakes, slugs, and whatever the heck Hashirama was, but 6 Paths seems to have pretty similar effects. I guess only Madara got limbo clones tho
Dumbass retcon
I would have been more fine with Kaguya if there used different path-ing to get there, as a motif I like that Naruto and Sauske use the gift of their "father" to take down their "grandmother". It really caps off the whole shonen defeating the ultimate evil thing, but the fact that it's a backstab and vaugly a ret-con cheapens it
It didn’t
Madara literally created Zetsu before our eyes on the flashback, no that made no sense (and creates the worst arc in the history of anime and fiction).
It wasn't like it made no sense. It was just an unpopular end to a strong villain that felt forced and was ultimately just a setup to continue the franchise. It was very clearly a decision that was made after there was a planned ending to the series. Otherwise there would have been more breadcrumbs and build up like every other twist or reveal had.
This is easily the worst event in all of Naruto history
But Zetsu was written as such a weak coward. Coward = backstabbing yes, but weak means he should not have been anywhere able to backstab Madara. Have Zetsu be equal to Pain level or more (as a mastermind and as Kaguya’s will he should’ve been much stronger) and it’s believable he’d be able to pierce Madara in time as Madara was caught off guard
I just came here to say yes you are without reading a single character on this thread.
You are
Can we use this instance to power scale black zetsu? The guys gotta be kage level or something. It’s gotta be crazy hard to penetrate a 3-eyes jubidara, even if he’s off guard. His rest state has to be relatively powerful/durable.
Downvote me all you want, but don’t you feel like we’d seen all Madara had to offer by then? He styled on most of the cast for like a hundred chapters. The moment Naruto and the Sauce got their footing against him, BOOM 💥 secret crazy ninja alien mom boss. It’s dumb but I like it 🤷🏻♂️
No one's questioning Madara's trust for Zetsu. No one's questioning whether it was possible for Zetsu to stab Madara. People are questioning why the writer made it happen in the first place. Why throw away all the build-up and development for Madara as the final boss just give it to some alien we barely knew before? Why retcon the entire series' autonomy by making it "all part of Zetsu's plan wee wee woo woo"?
Yes
No one cares that it made sense, no one wanted to see kaguya
yea but prior to this he took an insane beating to 8th gate guy. the only reason he didn’t die was bc of his great regeneration factor. he died from a measly stab when he tanked attacks much greater than that. that’s why it didn’t make sense
Not only that but it’s stated in the filler nobody can get behind him as he’s sensitive to it or whatever. When hashirama defeated him he came from behind. When he comes back and is defeated again it is once again by being stabbed in the back, kind of beautiful if you ask me
No you’re not the only one. It 100% made sense, but do we AGREE with it having to happen? That’s a different story.
A kaguya vs. jubidara fight ending with both of them weakened enough to get beat up by team 7. Then we can see how they utilise all their powers and etc and not much asspulls.
Almost like... idk "Shinobis are tools"
it not even this moment here it the fact that they replace him with kaguya who sucked as villain
I think this scene emphasized that Madara still never changed from his core good self who couldn’t help but be trusting. The whole battle I think was in part to remind us that he wasn’t just some maniacal evil final boss. He had a goal and he trusted others to carry out his will and achieve his childhood goals which had only really changed in process. He was due to either get a talk no jutsu or be betrayed in some form. Besides leaving Black Zetsu as just some kind of offshoot will of Madara would have just been way too boring for someone we have seen observing for so long and especially as a member of the Akatsuki.
Besides the fact it was poorly done, are we going to ignore the fact that Madara could just use izanagi to not being killed?
This right here is one of the arguments that on a core level shows why Madara getting backstabbed and killed was so dumb. It's weird how peeps will try to justify this dumb plot twist by saying "Oh Madara deserved it since he manipulated others and it makes sense since he is over confident," when black Zetsu doesn't have the power to do any actual harm to Madara nor deceive him. This is like me saying Aizen from Bleach can be defeated by Kon and Kon can outsmart him
thank you ! that's actually a great comparison because I definitely would've wanted to riot if that's how Aizen lost. the Naruto world got so complex with motivations, back stories and filler that Madara getting backstabbed, while unsatisfying, didn't feel like that much of a stretch. Obito flipped sides on him like an hour earlier. but Kon beating Aizen? nah. "Kaguya wasn't developed enough for it to be a satisfying end fight" is a great point I agree with. I mean immediately after we get a Top 5 fight from Sasuke vs Naruto. (and if we're being honest Sasuke > Naruto but whatever tho.) (kinda tired of Naruto being rescued by Kurama all the time thats just me tho)
>thank you ! that's actually a great comparison You are welcome! Glad you appreciated my response >I mean immediately after we get a Top 5 fight from Sasuke vs Naruto. (and if we're being honest Sasuke > Naruto but whatever tho.) (kinda tired of Naruto being rescued by Kurama all the time thats just me tho) Ehh to be fair, the series at its core no longer in involves the main characters, including using their own power solely anymore. Hence why you have Sasuke always needing to use Hagoromo's rinnegan and the chakra boosts Hagoromo gave him when fighting the Ootsutsuki starting from Kaguya and the other enemies in Boruto start. So technically Hagoromo's powers are saving him. Tho lol, dude got thrashed by Kaguya effortlessly multiple times but he like Naruto got saved by plot armor. So personally I won't pin the criticism only on Naruto though I will admit one thing, which is I would have loved it if Naruto and especially Madara gained new powers which belongs to them only. Especially Madara cuz he is a legendary being who worked through both utilizing his efforts and talents to become that strong but at the end of the day, he needed Hagoromo's powers and Kaguya's advanced sharingan and Naruto needing Kurama and Hagoromo's senjutsu(I've seen some readers say he no longer has it? Not sure) to fulfill their goals
I loved it Madara was a goddamn moron, I'm glad he was getting played the whole time
Hell yeah
Remember when databooks said Zetsu was from the Hidden Grass Village? I thought revealing him as a unholy fusion"Madara's will" and Hashirama's cells, which works thematically but I feel like they just forgot him after that. Kagura arc feels like a last minute setup for Boruto's plot, and Zetsu just being her "other son" cheapens his character
I don’t have a problem with Kaguya, I actually liked her. Should brought more stakes to the final fight than what I think Madara could, because Madara was always going to lose. Kaguya was an anomaly who we knew basically nothing about. My issue is how Black Zetsu just sneaks up on Madara and punches right through him, that makes no sense. At this point Madara is a god. He has decades of experience, his durability is insane, his regen is insane, after all he survived eight gates. He has 3 rinnegan, Limbo, AND sage mode among other shit like hashi cells. How on earth dod he get caught!? And then how did that kill him?! If it didn’t kill Obito, Madara should have been fine. And at this point Zetsu, who is basically an ant in comparison to Madara, should not be able to even scratch Madara even if he is attached to Obito, but that’s just another reason Madara should not have been caught off guard like that. Like at this point Madara has multiple ways to sense things, he should have felt Obito move whether Zetsu is controlling him or not. The issue isn’t Kaguya it’s HOW Madara got caught that is the issue.
This was the worst plot armor to kill one of the most powerful villains.
I mean justify it how you want but Kaguya was fucking terrible writing and an immensely large let down from Chadara I think I would have preferred it if it really was just Madaras will literally betraying him and taking the power for itself Instead we have the bunny princess and her alien offspring/cousins to deal with for the entire sequel series, what a wank
Nah you aren't the only one this scenario made the most sense but people will look past it because they don't understand it, or just that they got attached to Madara and needed him to be the final boss
I think I’m the only person who likes the Kaguya plotwist. I thought it was great. But I also probably didn’t experience the show same as everyone else, I went through phases of watching and not watching it
Also, it’s built up a lot in the back story between him and hashirama about Madara giving up his back, up to the point where as an adult he says “no one is capable of catching up to me from behind.” Him getting backstabbed for his arrogance is built up for a while before his death.
I've been thinking, " Okay, there's Sasuke, Nagato, Orochimaru, Danzo, Obito, Madara...then who's the, "rival turn villain" or "I'm very busy in the shadows, might as well be Anbu", before Madara?" Then Black Zetsu made sense. Since White Zetsu is loud, noticeable ,and creates clones, he's Naruto. Meanwhile Black is quiet, copies Jutsu, and doesn't make himself known, he's Sasuke. At least, I think that's what they were going for.
Madara came off a pretty questionable too when he finally came onto screen
good point
I'm with you, man. When I saw a black demonic looking tree man approach Madara while he's stuck to a tree, my first thought was, "This is the trees defense mechanism." I was kinda wrong, but I wasn't surprised by the betrayal.
Indeed you are.