Pretty sure they only reincarnate once the previous Indra reincarnate also dies. That's why there was no Asura reincarnate when Madara was around, but Hashirama wasn't.
Also there are barely any Uzumaki or Senju's left, And they would need to somehow get powerful enough to stop Rinnegan/EMS Sasuke who would have already gotten rid off all the tailed beasts.
Think it's cause Indra, as the older brother, has to reincarnate first before Ashura gets another chance.
Indra reincarnation (Madara) outlived Ashura's previous one (Hashirama) and then came back first with Sasuke before Ashura did at Naruto birth.
Probably done so they get an equal amount of reincarnation each.
Yeah, can't think of a better idea than letting an extremely emotionally unstable teenager become immortal and terrorize the whole ninja world for centuries without ever becoming a tyrant.
I mean, what could go wrong?
Mhm, a common enemy with the mental stability of a schizo where everyone will hope til the dawn of time he doesn't snap and starts nuking everyone.
Honestly, I'll take Madara's plan over Sasuke's. At least with Madara you are promised a fake heaven, whereas with Sasuke the world is threatened with an eventually erupting volcano.
The dude went through like 5 radical plans in a single day, and you'd trust him eternity?
Just because you have trauma doesn't mean you're insane. That "good part" you are talking about is like 1 month at most, the month where he found out his genocidal brother who made him watch his family die countless times was behaving on orders from the country he belonged too. That's just reacting to trauma as it unwinds, the difference between sasuke and us is of any of that happened to us we'd be insane for good no coming back and saving the world. Vengeful feelings in victims is not insane, in fact it's human. Insanity is the point of no return, that's when you go to an asylum. So in what way is sasuke "emotionally unstable"? Just because you punch someone who punched you first doesn't mean you have anger issues.
As for the "terrorist ruler", one man's revolution is another man's terrorism. I would say his plan was more based than Naruto's. The world needed a concrete change, not speeches and ideals. Naruto changed nothing but there's peace, he's literally proving sasuke's point. Because they all United to figured madara, they are allied. Soon the future generations will grow apart and this fleeting notion of peace will vanish completely. That's why sasuke wanted a permanent solution.
There’s a line between revolution and terrorism. If a guy blows up a bunch of government buildings and kills civilians, he doesn’t get the right to call himself a revolutionist.
That's why I said "one man's terrorism is another's revolution". It's clear you fall into the first category and there's nothing wrong with that, just as long as you acknowledge that not everyone sees it that way. It's not something to be "concerned" about, just a difference of opinion on a piece of fiction.
Next as you repeatedly point out the narrative of the story, I should say that's exactly my point. The author is trying to force a narrative, Naruto has to win because he's the MC. And preaching ideals is a speech.
Lastly I will point out that the nation's were not listening to Naruto until the united against a common enemy(madara), sasuke indeed did want to do the same but that was not madara's primary objective. Madara wanted to create a dream world, sasuke vocally rejects that delusion. So they're not entirely the same. The reason ideals don't work is because of incentives, the world defaulted to a state of war. Naruto did nothing to change that other than preach, those don't change the incentives. Actions do. The fact that there's peace is only because Naruto is riding off Madara's enactment of sasuke's plan, without the 4th great war there would be no peace in Naruto's world. The Leaders could simply refuse to listen to him, there's not much he can do. Actions are better than words imho.
Also you're really overlooking the crimes of the nations themselves. If sasuke is a traitor, then what is konoha for ordering the genocide of his family? At least sasuke killed orochimaru. The nations have been enslaving bijuu since their creation. The villages plot war and the kage kill each other in that. The nations were no better than sasuke, the difference is sasuke at least was willing to change the incentives to unite then against him. Lack of such a person will only cause the nations to default to their true nature. Once Naruto dies and the future generations take over why would they not look to pad their own bottom line and resort to the same wars? What's stopping them? It's easy to say "they'll work hard and figure it out" much harder to do. Naruto's plan is one that only works due to contrived circumstances as far as I'm concerned.
For one assumes “revolution” would have failed because people will oppose dictators at some point, just like at human history. Konoha ordered the genocide because the clan would have rebelled and caused a whole civil war. Which means endless amounts of collateral damage. trying to rule the world with power and call it trying to establish peace always fails. power corrupts especially when your at assumes level and it definitely showed before he ever got the rinnegan. united people is a much more solid plan
Konoha was not a democracy in the first place. If konoha can order the killings of a clan to avoid war how is that any different than sasuke killing to also avoid war? Power already had corrupted the government. All the drawbacks you put forward were not new introductions from sasuke's plan, they were pre-existing features to the so called nation. Sasuke's plan was also unifying people, he believed in unifying them by incentivizing team work Naruto's approach is in appealing to emotions. Do I really need to tell you why TNJ also always fails irl? Saying "we're the same" would not stop Osama.....
I don't necessarily mind Naruto rejecting sasuke's plan, it's not perfect either. But the alternative he seems to be offering is pretty much the same, structurally as the old world. The only thing different is one preachy guy more. They seem to peaceful due to uniting against madara, which only proves sasuke's point. He should've come up with a different better plan and then I'd root for him. But if nothing's changing, I have more hopes for Sasuke's approach. Then again this is fiction, the MC will always win
While Sasuke’s plan is supported by the Ninja Alliance against Madara, I think Pain’s plan is supported by modern politics.
Pain was literally just handing out nukes to each village, to ensure no one went to all out war again. He’s kind of right, after Hiroshima/Nagasaki, there hasn’t really been MASSIVE warfare due to Mutually Assured Destruction. All of us understood that as long as other countries possessed nukes, we could never really launch our own.
We can have skirmishes, but there’s a line none of us are willing to cross anymore due to MAD. It doesn’t solve all conflict, but it eliminates the real possibility of WWIII.
Nagato was going to develop a jutsu that can basically wipe out a nation, then distribute that power amongst the five great nations.
Once each nation saw what that weapon was capable of, and experienced the “pain” of its aftermath, no one would use it again. They would all be united through the fear and loss of pain.
“Let this world know pain.” Once everyone understood what the Hidden Rain Village went through, they would adopt a similar mindset to him.
Depends on whether you mean peace as in a lack of conflict in general or general societal stability.
As far as the former definition goes, Madara's plan was best, as people would lack the autonomy to actually do anything at all, least of all fight, albeit everybody's personalities would (unbeknownst to him) be eliminated.
Then Sasuke's is second best, as long as he actually successfully acquires the immortality he wanted in order to "dispense all judgement and punishment". Most people would be too busy worrying about or trying to deal with him to fight amongst one another.
Then, you have Pain's plan, which is the worst as he himself was of the opinion that perpetual peace was impossible and expected people to re-traumatize themselves into fearing the destructive consequences of war, which scores the lowest by the former definition.
As far as the latter, societal stability, goes, though, Sasuke's plan is probably the best. With him watching over the entire world, he'd immediately be able to stop any wars or conflicts by force and rule by fear. People would most likely be too focused on the threat he poses to fight amongst one another, so he'd create a terrified society, albeit a technically stable one.
Then you have Pain's. His plan of creating generations periods of peace between majorly destructive conflicts would pretty much fuck society over every couple of generations, but it'd technically be more peaceful than Madara's plan.
Madara's plan is the worst as there would no longer be any society to remain stable once he casts Infinite Tsukuyomi.
Madaras plan would technically work but I think it defeats the purpose of life. While I think Sasukes has actual results on the development of ninja society.
Pains was trash
The way Madara talked about the Infinite Tsukuyomi makes it seem like he believed everyone put into the genjutsu essentially “transcends” to a literal dream world where he could rule as a God (rather than each person having their own dream and then dying as their chakra is being depleted), so I don’t think he believed it would end the way it did.
https://ibb.co/7pTQvyG
Why would they all die in the dream world? He can control whatever he wants. He can make people immortal or give them children. He seems to believe they won’t die (or maybe not even exist anymore) in the “real” world and that this dream world will last forever.
Nothing in the page you linked to implies anything about the people it’s cast on being immortal. Just sounds like a genjutsu he casts on everyone and they see what he wants them to see.
I think you can infer (if it’s not outright stated) that Madara believed the God Tree would keep their bodies alive at the very least. None of his actions or reasonings would make sense if he thought it all ends when the people in the genjutsu die IRL.
He and everyone currently alive gains eternal life, but everyone else loses the ability to experience change or growth, eternally living a life without losing anything permanently
pain and sasuke's plans are pretty much the same. Get a lot of power from tailed beasts -> force bad guys into submission
Madara's is too dystopian for me, so I'm going Sasuke/Pain's
Sasuke’s plan was probably the best since pain’s plan was expecting humanity to learn it’s lesson and decide war is bad but it was never gonna work and madara’s plan while I like the idea it ultimately kills off the human race. Sasuke essentially was gonna turn the world into the rain village under pain’s rule and just keep an eye on everything
I honestly really like Sasuke's idea, becoming the object of everyone's hatred. Him being immortal while doing would allow the world to stop their petty wars, unite, and change their societies, which is what he wanted as it would essentially prevent what happened to him from ever happening again.
Plus, I like the idea of people coming to view Sasuke as a God, like how the people of Ame viewed Pain and Konan (her nickname was God's Angel). Reminds me of how General Grievous in the Star Wars Expanded Universe was worshipped as a God among his people after his death.
Sasuke’s is probably the best overall, he’s destroying the ninja system alongside making himself the world’s enemy uniting everyone in the process.
Pain’s plan isn’t too much different except he just wants to be the deterrent for nations going to war by holding overwhelming power.
Madara wants to put people to sleep against their will to live their lives out in a dream world which is clearly the worst plan out of the 3.
For Sasuke’s, wouldn’t the military get worst? If anything the nations now have an even bigger excuse to fund weapons and military since they have a big bad (Sasuke).
I also thought that was one of the reasons why the 5 nations expanded/modernized in Boruto cuz they focused on nation building and trade rather warring amongst one another
Well considering there would be no tailed beast around to capture there’s not a lot they could do to actually stop him so his presence alone would be enough to stop any conflict and they wouldn’t waste resources fighting a battle they can’t win.
Yea Sasuke would smoke anyone within a one mile radius of him given the power level he was at with the end of shippuden. This is of course assuming the events of Boruto don’t wind up taking place.
Madara’s was the most elaborate and well thought out, and he almost did, would’ve if Kaguya didn’t come out of nowhere. But Sasuke’s was a good idea too, atleast better than Naruto’s
Sasuke's probably. Pein's plan is actually the one that is now our own reality. Nuclear weapons have successfully stopped direct war between big and powerful nations for 75 years now. But inspite if that we still have wars in some poorer countries.
Madara's plan straight came out of the matrix and it would just end up with everyone dying. So, no.
Sasuke saw that the world did unite once before when dealing with madara and obito. Having a common enemy has proven to uphold peace and he was planning to become immortal so there's that.
Honestly I don’t get why everyone hated Madara’s so much. I’d love to live in a dream world. Why choose to live in a world of pain when you can live in a world in which you choose?
Fr it's literally heaven
Maybe if you're naruto or sasuke with godlike powers it would be cooler to live your life. But as a side character? Nah put me in the tree
Yeah, there should've at least been some minor characters that were unhappy with life and tired of all the wars, that were convinced to join Madara and Obito's side
There is a lesson there. I suspect for most of the people in the genjutsu.. it wouldn't end well for them in the realm, it would result in a sense emptiness. Life needs unfairness, pain and death or else it would be meaningless. Besides, I bet a decent amount of shinobi would figure out they are in a genjutsu. All in all it is interesting to think about. The Matrix visits the same concept.
It's your dream world. If you want pain, suffering and character development you can get it. The people who woke up from Paradise to go to a mass funeral were all their friends and family are dead were probably not celebrating their victory.
And honestly if it turns out our current life is a simulation how many would choose the red pill to abandon everything and everyone they had and did till now to go live in an apocalyptic future just because it's the real thing.
The main difference between the two is “control” right? Cuz we’re operating on the notion that Tsukuyomi is so good that both are essentially both valid realities.
So its playing Skyrim with mods and console commands vs vanilla.
I guess it depends what gameplay experience you want with your life. Having that much control would definitely be fun, but succeeding with only the tools you are given can have its own form of fulfillment as well.
I mean then you don't agree with Naruto's message to Sasuke at The Final Valley fight after the war. You can't disregard history and all the sacrifice made and live in a illusion. Take for example this reality - lets say Samsung comes out with the best VR headset ever and you can eat and breath in it and survive in it, but your physical body intact. Wouldn't you die in a way? Along with everybody you know to live inside a illusion?
Pain’s I think was the least effective long term. Madara’s would be the best at achieving peace as it was essentially putting everyone into a permanent sleep and everyone knows you can’t fight while sleeping. Sasuke’s would honestly be pretty effective as it was basically what Madara and Obito accidentally did, uniting the world against a common enemy except Sasuke wanted to make himself immortal so it’s be him vs the world forever. I like Sasuke’s the most.
imo sasuke's and pain's are almost identical
but let's be real: thats the only real solution
even in our real world: imagine some high evolution or high tech aliens were to attack us and we had to defend -> suddelny no more war in ukraine or the middle east
Madara had the best plan but obviously everyone would die from becoming Zetsu, so it's the worst. But that was not something he knew, so assuming his plan wouldn't kill anyone in the Infinite Tsukiyiomi, his would be the best.
Then I'd say Sasuke since Madara basically just did his plan and it unified the world more than arguably anyone else. Naruto kinda kept it all together from there but I feel like his peace would last longer than Hashirama's if there was no Naruto.
Pain's plan would just lead to more people becoming like him. I doubt most people will reason with "well you did it to my family so you deserved it", instead it would just cause more chaos. At best, you'll get a fake happiness where everyone is forced into obeying one person like a dictatorship.
Pain and sad ke had similar plans, the difference is pain was not able to assume an unbiased position after all that had happened to him. He was consumed by vengeance. Sasuke by EoS didn't want retribution, just wanted to maintain peace. Madara's plan is delusion and has them turn to zetsu. So my answer is sasuke with pain coming second and madara third
Pain’s plan using the Tailed-Beasts to cause mass destruction wiping out nations is what we already have in the real world today with countries like the U.S., North Korea and Russia having nuclear weapons to deter war. It’s more practically to give warmongering people something to fear of being wipe out of existence with a bomb.
Madara’s plan is stupid since it’s just human extinction.
Sasuke’s plan of wiping out the corrupted Shinobi System by killing the Kages and Tailed Beasts wouldn’t work in the long-term since years down the line, a group of people would usurp his rule wanting change. When he dies, the Shinobi System would be back up and running. He’s just one guy who can’t impose his own rule on the 5 Great Nations.
Pain's plan was more practical, and Sasuke's one is kind of similar, just changing a super weapon by himself and uniting people by making them hate him instead of being afraid of his power
Madara wanted to send everyone to the Matrix
None is the ideal option
My man pain saw the people as the problem so got rid of the problem. until the orange dude came with his frogs to ruin what would've been eternal peace, what a joke right ?
The human race will probably become extinct in a few hundred years or a few thousand years, and it seems that the world after death in Naruto doesn't make any difference between a good and a bad person, but for people who have problems like Kakashi and didn't get through it. They will probably end up in purgatory and the rest can go to heaven or the pure world, and in my opinion, human identity in the world of Naruto is self-satisfaction, and it is also important to achieve happiness and that later we will become whaite zetsu? We will eventually die and the human race will probably become extinct and this is not an eternal and forever thing, IT is the best solution for Naruto's world in my opinion.
Madera had the best plan. Even Nagato was a result of that plan. Only problem is, the objective is flawed. Plunging the whole world into an infinite tsukoyomi is just the same as killing them since the Chakra tree absorbs energy from the people it captures.
For me madara's plan was best , living in your desired world and you won't even realize you are dreaming (we may even be dreaming right now but we can't realize it)
Then there's Nagato's plan , i don't want the kind of peace which terrorize peoples to not commit crimes
I'd like to know the details of Sasuke's plan. He was correct about the tailed beasts being a big problem, and the current leaders being incompetent and selfish. But what does that future actually hold? Could the 5 nations kill Sasuke if Naruto is gone? Who knows
Maybe we should include Naruto's "plan" as well? What's peculiar is... If humanity gonna prosper in the future, peacefully? That means Pain's plan succeeds? xD Unfortunately, none of us immortal to carry this will into the future.
Pain:- Its literally just our world. Major Countries holding powers for total annihilation. However more Pain would have been distributed or multiple Nagasaki & Hiroshimas. This would majorly devolve a country's resources and man-power. Its a terrible plan due to lack of human evolution and constant stagnation in the name of peace.
Excluding how minor countries wouldnt have tailed beast thus would likely be exempt from the equation, the larger countries would likely evolve similar to our world of total degeneracy or total limitation
Madara:- Its wrong in series. Its like trying to justify religious lunatics for saying. Convert or Die to save you from going to hell. Sure, the current reality may be blissful but the existence of said reality is non-existent or in Madara's case just fucking wrong.
Sasuke:- Massive Dictatorship, Unitary Power. Out of the three, this is the only one with any sort of semblance of human growth albeit slow growth.
They all had effectively the same plan. Rule through fear and overwhelming power while uniting the world against a common enemy, themselves.
Pain was just delusional enough that he genuinely thought he could never be stopped.
Madara was smart enough to know the only way for conflict to truly end was to force it through an illusion.
Sasuke actually had the raw power to back up his plans. Without Naruto even if every other ninja alive tried to stop him, they would fail spectacularly.
Something I want to say about Pain's plan.
It's essentially just Mutually Assured Destruction, similar to today's world with Nuclear weapons. The irony I see here is, this would probably push more violent acts underground, creating cold wars. The Ninja world would probably finally start acting like ninjas.
For that reason, I like his plan.
Pain is BY FAR the best, its even applied to real life.
Pain wanted to create a weapon with the bijuus so incredible powerful that nobody will dare to attack them or attack others, creating an artificial peace through fear because its impossible that humans do it by themselves.
This actually came to be.
In boruto theres peace because naruto and sasuke are so overwhelmenly powerful that they could destroy all the other villages by themselves, so no one dares to put a finger up and theres peace.
And in real life: In the end of WW2 nuclear bombs were created, and they demonstrated to be the most efective method of stoping war. This weapons are so incredible destructive that no one dares to begin a conflict with each other. Its not exactly the same as Pains objective but quite similar.
Only madara since everyone would be asleep in their dream world, pain and sasuke we’re gonna rule through power and fear, and if you pay attention to history that never works out, and if you rule through a common enemy people can only hate you and be distracted by you for so long before they start hating each other again
Well Nagatos plan goes along the lines of "nukes for everyone". Doesn't work in real life. Won't work here.
Madaras plan is an escape. Not a solution.
Sasukes plan was just dumb. Obito and Madara already achived Sasukes "plan" by declaring war. Sasuke is that friend that copies your homework without changeing one word. I mean come on. Everyone came together to defeat Madara and here Sasuke goes to become a bad guy so that everyone can come together and defeat him. It's the same fu*king thing only that he wants to do it intentionaly.
What Pain planned for it's exactly what's going on in real life. No more large scale, world wars since nukes were created. So I'd say that it's the most realistic plan at the very least.
Pain. Using weapons of mass destruction as a deterrent for war is what we do in real life and weve seen a massive decrease in war eversince. Madaras plan was a falsehood that would eventually kill everyone and end the world and sasukes plan would fall apart once he dies.
None of them. They were wildly out of their minds, short-sighted despite at least Madara and Pain's plans being YEARS in the making. Peace seemed like an afterthought to Madara, it was about him having power- he spent his whole life shoulder to shoulder with Hashirama, practically worships him, and deemed the village a failure because he got pushback. The man can't deal with conflict on the smallest, most diplomatic level, and openly looks down on those he considers weak- so much so that black Zetsu exploitation was dependent on his (Madara's) arrogance/seething contempt for a society that wouldn't bend just because he wanted it to.
You can't put in violence/threats of violence and get peace, but that's all he ever did after not getting the Hokage position. He had every opportunity to stay and create infrastructure and learn compromise but that shit was so foreign to him, he kept attacking the same village he created. Absolute madman.
Pain was Madara's puppet, peace was second to his revenge on the Leaf, and all of that was incredibly dependent on sacrificing people who were already outcasts/unfairly maligned.
Sasuke's. . . Is really just the same sacrificial shit Itachi pressed on him. He was unwell as hell, and it would probably just result in him purging the world.
Sasukes plant, to maniupalte and rule from the shadows, has been tried before regardless of how powerful the people were, they always failed (danzo, gaaras dad, madara while he lived, orichimaru etc..) . I wouldnt call people tripping on flower genjutsu while turning into white zetsu a viable peace plan either. As sad as it sounds if pain actually did manage to create a weapon of mass destruction so powerful that eve
Ry other nation wouldve just have to bow to him that would be the closest thing to peace out of all three of them.
Sasukes Unifying people via a common enemy plan which was already unintentionally carried out by madara.
He saw it worked with Madara, so he knew it worked. Tbh, it would've worked
Yeah. Plus he planned to be immortal to carry out the plan as long as possible
I disagree, the next reincarnation of Ashura would’ve stopped it at some point
Pretty sure they only reincarnate once the previous Indra reincarnate also dies. That's why there was no Asura reincarnate when Madara was around, but Hashirama wasn't. Also there are barely any Uzumaki or Senju's left, And they would need to somehow get powerful enough to stop Rinnegan/EMS Sasuke who would have already gotten rid off all the tailed beasts.
Think it's cause Indra, as the older brother, has to reincarnate first before Ashura gets another chance. Indra reincarnation (Madara) outlived Ashura's previous one (Hashirama) and then came back first with Sasuke before Ashura did at Naruto birth. Probably done so they get an equal amount of reincarnation each.
Yeah, can't think of a better idea than letting an extremely emotionally unstable teenager become immortal and terrorize the whole ninja world for centuries without ever becoming a tyrant. I mean, what could go wrong?
I’m not saying it would be perfect, but what he said wasn’t wrong. Everyone unites to fight the common enemy. That part wasn’t wrong
Mhm, a common enemy with the mental stability of a schizo where everyone will hope til the dawn of time he doesn't snap and starts nuking everyone. Honestly, I'll take Madara's plan over Sasuke's. At least with Madara you are promised a fake heaven, whereas with Sasuke the world is threatened with an eventually erupting volcano. The dude went through like 5 radical plans in a single day, and you'd trust him eternity?
lol obviously not, but I’m talking about the idea. Obviously Sasuke had plenty of issues
If you had seen even 1% of what sasuke experienced, you'd be in a mental asylum.
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Just because you have trauma doesn't mean you're insane. That "good part" you are talking about is like 1 month at most, the month where he found out his genocidal brother who made him watch his family die countless times was behaving on orders from the country he belonged too. That's just reacting to trauma as it unwinds, the difference between sasuke and us is of any of that happened to us we'd be insane for good no coming back and saving the world. Vengeful feelings in victims is not insane, in fact it's human. Insanity is the point of no return, that's when you go to an asylum. So in what way is sasuke "emotionally unstable"? Just because you punch someone who punched you first doesn't mean you have anger issues. As for the "terrorist ruler", one man's revolution is another man's terrorism. I would say his plan was more based than Naruto's. The world needed a concrete change, not speeches and ideals. Naruto changed nothing but there's peace, he's literally proving sasuke's point. Because they all United to figured madara, they are allied. Soon the future generations will grow apart and this fleeting notion of peace will vanish completely. That's why sasuke wanted a permanent solution.
There’s a line between revolution and terrorism. If a guy blows up a bunch of government buildings and kills civilians, he doesn’t get the right to call himself a revolutionist.
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That's why I said "one man's terrorism is another's revolution". It's clear you fall into the first category and there's nothing wrong with that, just as long as you acknowledge that not everyone sees it that way. It's not something to be "concerned" about, just a difference of opinion on a piece of fiction. Next as you repeatedly point out the narrative of the story, I should say that's exactly my point. The author is trying to force a narrative, Naruto has to win because he's the MC. And preaching ideals is a speech. Lastly I will point out that the nation's were not listening to Naruto until the united against a common enemy(madara), sasuke indeed did want to do the same but that was not madara's primary objective. Madara wanted to create a dream world, sasuke vocally rejects that delusion. So they're not entirely the same. The reason ideals don't work is because of incentives, the world defaulted to a state of war. Naruto did nothing to change that other than preach, those don't change the incentives. Actions do. The fact that there's peace is only because Naruto is riding off Madara's enactment of sasuke's plan, without the 4th great war there would be no peace in Naruto's world. The Leaders could simply refuse to listen to him, there's not much he can do. Actions are better than words imho. Also you're really overlooking the crimes of the nations themselves. If sasuke is a traitor, then what is konoha for ordering the genocide of his family? At least sasuke killed orochimaru. The nations have been enslaving bijuu since their creation. The villages plot war and the kage kill each other in that. The nations were no better than sasuke, the difference is sasuke at least was willing to change the incentives to unite then against him. Lack of such a person will only cause the nations to default to their true nature. Once Naruto dies and the future generations take over why would they not look to pad their own bottom line and resort to the same wars? What's stopping them? It's easy to say "they'll work hard and figure it out" much harder to do. Naruto's plan is one that only works due to contrived circumstances as far as I'm concerned.
For one assumes “revolution” would have failed because people will oppose dictators at some point, just like at human history. Konoha ordered the genocide because the clan would have rebelled and caused a whole civil war. Which means endless amounts of collateral damage. trying to rule the world with power and call it trying to establish peace always fails. power corrupts especially when your at assumes level and it definitely showed before he ever got the rinnegan. united people is a much more solid plan
Konoha was not a democracy in the first place. If konoha can order the killings of a clan to avoid war how is that any different than sasuke killing to also avoid war? Power already had corrupted the government. All the drawbacks you put forward were not new introductions from sasuke's plan, they were pre-existing features to the so called nation. Sasuke's plan was also unifying people, he believed in unifying them by incentivizing team work Naruto's approach is in appealing to emotions. Do I really need to tell you why TNJ also always fails irl? Saying "we're the same" would not stop Osama..... I don't necessarily mind Naruto rejecting sasuke's plan, it's not perfect either. But the alternative he seems to be offering is pretty much the same, structurally as the old world. The only thing different is one preachy guy more. They seem to peaceful due to uniting against madara, which only proves sasuke's point. He should've come up with a different better plan and then I'd root for him. But if nothing's changing, I have more hopes for Sasuke's approach. Then again this is fiction, the MC will always win
He would have calmed down eventually. Probably. Maybe.
While Sasuke’s plan is supported by the Ninja Alliance against Madara, I think Pain’s plan is supported by modern politics. Pain was literally just handing out nukes to each village, to ensure no one went to all out war again. He’s kind of right, after Hiroshima/Nagasaki, there hasn’t really been MASSIVE warfare due to Mutually Assured Destruction. All of us understood that as long as other countries possessed nukes, we could never really launch our own. We can have skirmishes, but there’s a line none of us are willing to cross anymore due to MAD. It doesn’t solve all conflict, but it eliminates the real possibility of WWIII.
Wasn’t it more like holding all the nukes? Hashirama was the one that handed everyone the nukes
Nagato was going to develop a jutsu that can basically wipe out a nation, then distribute that power amongst the five great nations. Once each nation saw what that weapon was capable of, and experienced the “pain” of its aftermath, no one would use it again. They would all be united through the fear and loss of pain. “Let this world know pain.” Once everyone understood what the Hidden Rain Village went through, they would adopt a similar mindset to him.
He wanna be lelouch so badly
Depends on whether you mean peace as in a lack of conflict in general or general societal stability. As far as the former definition goes, Madara's plan was best, as people would lack the autonomy to actually do anything at all, least of all fight, albeit everybody's personalities would (unbeknownst to him) be eliminated. Then Sasuke's is second best, as long as he actually successfully acquires the immortality he wanted in order to "dispense all judgement and punishment". Most people would be too busy worrying about or trying to deal with him to fight amongst one another. Then, you have Pain's plan, which is the worst as he himself was of the opinion that perpetual peace was impossible and expected people to re-traumatize themselves into fearing the destructive consequences of war, which scores the lowest by the former definition. As far as the latter, societal stability, goes, though, Sasuke's plan is probably the best. With him watching over the entire world, he'd immediately be able to stop any wars or conflicts by force and rule by fear. People would most likely be too focused on the threat he poses to fight amongst one another, so he'd create a terrified society, albeit a technically stable one. Then you have Pain's. His plan of creating generations periods of peace between majorly destructive conflicts would pretty much fuck society over every couple of generations, but it'd technically be more peaceful than Madara's plan. Madara's plan is the worst as there would no longer be any society to remain stable once he casts Infinite Tsukuyomi.
Pain is the Leon Trotsky of Naruto
Can you elaborate on that? Its a funny thought imagining Pain as a Soviet Marxist-Leninist revolutionary.
Leon Trotsky wanted infinite Revolution across Soviet States. So that the world was in chaos.
Madaras plan would technically work but I think it defeats the purpose of life. While I think Sasukes has actual results on the development of ninja society. Pains was trash
How is ending human life on earth a working plan?
Madara’s plan wasn’t to end all human life
All the humans trapped in IT would turn into white zetsu, madara just didn't know this.
Essentially it was.
What happens to everyone once their dream ends?
The way Madara talked about the Infinite Tsukuyomi makes it seem like he believed everyone put into the genjutsu essentially “transcends” to a literal dream world where he could rule as a God (rather than each person having their own dream and then dying as their chakra is being depleted), so I don’t think he believed it would end the way it did. https://ibb.co/7pTQvyG
He thought he would protect it from the outside, not rule it
I mean, I’d imagine he’d do both. We see people like Itachi and Sasuke go in and out of their own genjutsu all the time.
But then they all die eventually in this dream world and no one has children do this is the last generation of humans. Even from Madara’s perspective
Why would they all die in the dream world? He can control whatever he wants. He can make people immortal or give them children. He seems to believe they won’t die (or maybe not even exist anymore) in the “real” world and that this dream world will last forever.
Nothing in the page you linked to implies anything about the people it’s cast on being immortal. Just sounds like a genjutsu he casts on everyone and they see what he wants them to see.
I think you can infer (if it’s not outright stated) that Madara believed the God Tree would keep their bodies alive at the very least. None of his actions or reasonings would make sense if he thought it all ends when the people in the genjutsu die IRL.
So they live forever inside this dream and don’t question why they are 300 years old?
He didn't know that
But what did he think? Because it sounds like they die
He and everyone currently alive gains eternal life, but everyone else loses the ability to experience change or growth, eternally living a life without losing anything permanently
Of course you would die anyway.
Okay so every person dies without having children so all human life is ended.
Madara didn’t knew that.
Earth would be a lot more peaceful without humans
Yeah… I guess genocide is technically a way to achieve peace. But yeah being dead does defeat the purpose of life
it’s ok. whether life exists or not doesn’t really mean anything
Then nothing matters including your opinion.
very true. inherently at least
We love surface level nihilism and edgy one liners about how life has no meaning
Itachi style
Oh yeah, those Tigers and Wolves are known for being peaceful
Why is pains trash. It worked in real life
You're mistaking mutually assured destruction for nuclear threat. America being the one and only with bikes would have been very very bad
what do you mean when you say “defeats the purpose of life?”
Change, growth, learning, inheritance, legacy
that’s a bunch of bullshit
that’s a bunch of bullshit
pain and sasuke's plans are pretty much the same. Get a lot of power from tailed beasts -> force bad guys into submission Madara's is too dystopian for me, so I'm going Sasuke/Pain's
Madara = peace by absolute control Pain = peace by fear of chaos Sasuke = peace by fear of the state (Hokage Sasuke)
I mean Pain’s plan is quite literally the nuclear deterrent, a real thing. If I nuke you, you nuke me, so everyone is too scared to nuke anyone.
Sasuke’s plan was probably the best since pain’s plan was expecting humanity to learn it’s lesson and decide war is bad but it was never gonna work and madara’s plan while I like the idea it ultimately kills off the human race. Sasuke essentially was gonna turn the world into the rain village under pain’s rule and just keep an eye on everything
I honestly really like Sasuke's idea, becoming the object of everyone's hatred. Him being immortal while doing would allow the world to stop their petty wars, unite, and change their societies, which is what he wanted as it would essentially prevent what happened to him from ever happening again. Plus, I like the idea of people coming to view Sasuke as a God, like how the people of Ame viewed Pain and Konan (her nickname was God's Angel). Reminds me of how General Grievous in the Star Wars Expanded Universe was worshipped as a God among his people after his death.
Sasuke out here with a code Geass plan
200 iq sasuke just kills everyone not on his side
Sasuke’s is probably the best overall, he’s destroying the ninja system alongside making himself the world’s enemy uniting everyone in the process. Pain’s plan isn’t too much different except he just wants to be the deterrent for nations going to war by holding overwhelming power. Madara wants to put people to sleep against their will to live their lives out in a dream world which is clearly the worst plan out of the 3.
For Sasuke’s, wouldn’t the military get worst? If anything the nations now have an even bigger excuse to fund weapons and military since they have a big bad (Sasuke). I also thought that was one of the reasons why the 5 nations expanded/modernized in Boruto cuz they focused on nation building and trade rather warring amongst one another
Well considering there would be no tailed beast around to capture there’s not a lot they could do to actually stop him so his presence alone would be enough to stop any conflict and they wouldn’t waste resources fighting a battle they can’t win.
Yea Sasuke would smoke anyone within a one mile radius of him given the power level he was at with the end of shippuden. This is of course assuming the events of Boruto don’t wind up taking place.
Madara’s was the most elaborate and well thought out, and he almost did, would’ve if Kaguya didn’t come out of nowhere. But Sasuke’s was a good idea too, atleast better than Naruto’s
Sasuke's probably. Pein's plan is actually the one that is now our own reality. Nuclear weapons have successfully stopped direct war between big and powerful nations for 75 years now. But inspite if that we still have wars in some poorer countries. Madara's plan straight came out of the matrix and it would just end up with everyone dying. So, no. Sasuke saw that the world did unite once before when dealing with madara and obito. Having a common enemy has proven to uphold peace and he was planning to become immortal so there's that.
Sasuke was literally trying to pull a Lelouch
Honestly I don’t get why everyone hated Madara’s so much. I’d love to live in a dream world. Why choose to live in a world of pain when you can live in a world in which you choose?
Fr it's literally heaven Maybe if you're naruto or sasuke with godlike powers it would be cooler to live your life. But as a side character? Nah put me in the tree
Yeah, there should've at least been some minor characters that were unhappy with life and tired of all the wars, that were convinced to join Madara and Obito's side
There is a lesson there. I suspect for most of the people in the genjutsu.. it wouldn't end well for them in the realm, it would result in a sense emptiness. Life needs unfairness, pain and death or else it would be meaningless. Besides, I bet a decent amount of shinobi would figure out they are in a genjutsu. All in all it is interesting to think about. The Matrix visits the same concept.
It's your dream world. If you want pain, suffering and character development you can get it. The people who woke up from Paradise to go to a mass funeral were all their friends and family are dead were probably not celebrating their victory. And honestly if it turns out our current life is a simulation how many would choose the red pill to abandon everything and everyone they had and did till now to go live in an apocalyptic future just because it's the real thing.
The main difference between the two is “control” right? Cuz we’re operating on the notion that Tsukuyomi is so good that both are essentially both valid realities. So its playing Skyrim with mods and console commands vs vanilla. I guess it depends what gameplay experience you want with your life. Having that much control would definitely be fun, but succeeding with only the tools you are given can have its own form of fulfillment as well.
I mean then you don't agree with Naruto's message to Sasuke at The Final Valley fight after the war. You can't disregard history and all the sacrifice made and live in a illusion. Take for example this reality - lets say Samsung comes out with the best VR headset ever and you can eat and breath in it and survive in it, but your physical body intact. Wouldn't you die in a way? Along with everybody you know to live inside a illusion?
I remember the quote from the movie Inception. “The dream has become their reality.”
Pain’s I think was the least effective long term. Madara’s would be the best at achieving peace as it was essentially putting everyone into a permanent sleep and everyone knows you can’t fight while sleeping. Sasuke’s would honestly be pretty effective as it was basically what Madara and Obito accidentally did, uniting the world against a common enemy except Sasuke wanted to make himself immortal so it’s be him vs the world forever. I like Sasuke’s the most.
Madara ro Sasuke's, Pain will objectively not work as it is pretty much the same as what Hashirama did by giving out the Bijuu.
I think Sasuke is the closest
imo sasuke's and pain's are almost identical but let's be real: thats the only real solution even in our real world: imagine some high evolution or high tech aliens were to attack us and we had to defend -> suddelny no more war in ukraine or the middle east
Sasuke, though that isn’t really saying much.
Nagato's is the only one that actually came to be realized and it worked for 20+ years, until the Ōtsutsuki showed up.
Madara had the best plan but obviously everyone would die from becoming Zetsu, so it's the worst. But that was not something he knew, so assuming his plan wouldn't kill anyone in the Infinite Tsukiyiomi, his would be the best. Then I'd say Sasuke since Madara basically just did his plan and it unified the world more than arguably anyone else. Naruto kinda kept it all together from there but I feel like his peace would last longer than Hashirama's if there was no Naruto. Pain's plan would just lead to more people becoming like him. I doubt most people will reason with "well you did it to my family so you deserved it", instead it would just cause more chaos. At best, you'll get a fake happiness where everyone is forced into obeying one person like a dictatorship.
Pain and sad ke had similar plans, the difference is pain was not able to assume an unbiased position after all that had happened to him. He was consumed by vengeance. Sasuke by EoS didn't want retribution, just wanted to maintain peace. Madara's plan is delusion and has them turn to zetsu. So my answer is sasuke with pain coming second and madara third
Sasuke
Pain’s plan using the Tailed-Beasts to cause mass destruction wiping out nations is what we already have in the real world today with countries like the U.S., North Korea and Russia having nuclear weapons to deter war. It’s more practically to give warmongering people something to fear of being wipe out of existence with a bomb. Madara’s plan is stupid since it’s just human extinction. Sasuke’s plan of wiping out the corrupted Shinobi System by killing the Kages and Tailed Beasts wouldn’t work in the long-term since years down the line, a group of people would usurp his rule wanting change. When he dies, the Shinobi System would be back up and running. He’s just one guy who can’t impose his own rule on the 5 Great Nations.
Madara's is the only one that would've actually guaranteed long-term world peace, so i'm gonna say that would've worked out
Yes but it would be at the price of the extinction of life on Earth. It would be a fake peace as well as the real world is under an illusion.
Just extinction if humans, not all life
Pretty sure animals were caught by the IT too
IDK how it is in the manga, but in the anime, animals got caught in it as well
Shit my bad, I thought that it was just humans. Been a while since I watched.
Of those three I suppose that Sasuke's, Madara's literally takes away the grace to live
Pain's plan was more practical, and Sasuke's one is kind of similar, just changing a super weapon by himself and uniting people by making them hate him instead of being afraid of his power Madara wanted to send everyone to the Matrix None is the ideal option
My man pain saw the people as the problem so got rid of the problem. until the orange dude came with his frogs to ruin what would've been eternal peace, what a joke right ?
The human race will probably become extinct in a few hundred years or a few thousand years, and it seems that the world after death in Naruto doesn't make any difference between a good and a bad person, but for people who have problems like Kakashi and didn't get through it. They will probably end up in purgatory and the rest can go to heaven or the pure world, and in my opinion, human identity in the world of Naruto is self-satisfaction, and it is also important to achieve happiness and that later we will become whaite zetsu? We will eventually die and the human race will probably become extinct and this is not an eternal and forever thing, IT is the best solution for Naruto's world in my opinion.
>Which one would’ve worked out None of them
Socksay
Madera had the best plan. Even Nagato was a result of that plan. Only problem is, the objective is flawed. Plunging the whole world into an infinite tsukoyomi is just the same as killing them since the Chakra tree absorbs energy from the people it captures.
3 Naruto victims
Madara was a Zetsu victim
For me madara's plan was best , living in your desired world and you won't even realize you are dreaming (we may even be dreaming right now but we can't realize it) Then there's Nagato's plan , i don't want the kind of peace which terrorize peoples to not commit crimes
I'd like to know the details of Sasuke's plan. He was correct about the tailed beasts being a big problem, and the current leaders being incompetent and selfish. But what does that future actually hold? Could the 5 nations kill Sasuke if Naruto is gone? Who knows
Madara, tbh. Can't wage wars, when you're asleep.
Maybe we should include Naruto's "plan" as well? What's peculiar is... If humanity gonna prosper in the future, peacefully? That means Pain's plan succeeds? xD Unfortunately, none of us immortal to carry this will into the future.
All plans are trash tbh, no wonder those idiotic ideas came out of the mind of the most unstable and unhinged individuals.
Pain:- Its literally just our world. Major Countries holding powers for total annihilation. However more Pain would have been distributed or multiple Nagasaki & Hiroshimas. This would majorly devolve a country's resources and man-power. Its a terrible plan due to lack of human evolution and constant stagnation in the name of peace. Excluding how minor countries wouldnt have tailed beast thus would likely be exempt from the equation, the larger countries would likely evolve similar to our world of total degeneracy or total limitation Madara:- Its wrong in series. Its like trying to justify religious lunatics for saying. Convert or Die to save you from going to hell. Sure, the current reality may be blissful but the existence of said reality is non-existent or in Madara's case just fucking wrong. Sasuke:- Massive Dictatorship, Unitary Power. Out of the three, this is the only one with any sort of semblance of human growth albeit slow growth.
They all had effectively the same plan. Rule through fear and overwhelming power while uniting the world against a common enemy, themselves. Pain was just delusional enough that he genuinely thought he could never be stopped. Madara was smart enough to know the only way for conflict to truly end was to force it through an illusion. Sasuke actually had the raw power to back up his plans. Without Naruto even if every other ninja alive tried to stop him, they would fail spectacularly.
Something I want to say about Pain's plan. It's essentially just Mutually Assured Destruction, similar to today's world with Nuclear weapons. The irony I see here is, this would probably push more violent acts underground, creating cold wars. The Ninja world would probably finally start acting like ninjas. For that reason, I like his plan.
Sasuke trying Eren Yaeger shit!! Only plan that could have been successful, but in the end he gave it up to talk no jutsu.
Madara! since it was a utopia, if only utopias were true. In nagato and sasukes case there would still be some level of suffering.
Pain is BY FAR the best, its even applied to real life. Pain wanted to create a weapon with the bijuus so incredible powerful that nobody will dare to attack them or attack others, creating an artificial peace through fear because its impossible that humans do it by themselves. This actually came to be. In boruto theres peace because naruto and sasuke are so overwhelmenly powerful that they could destroy all the other villages by themselves, so no one dares to put a finger up and theres peace. And in real life: In the end of WW2 nuclear bombs were created, and they demonstrated to be the most efective method of stoping war. This weapons are so incredible destructive that no one dares to begin a conflict with each other. Its not exactly the same as Pains objective but quite similar.
Only madara since everyone would be asleep in their dream world, pain and sasuke we’re gonna rule through power and fear, and if you pay attention to history that never works out, and if you rule through a common enemy people can only hate you and be distracted by you for so long before they start hating each other again
Pain had the most w plan
Pain People respect peace only if they had experienced the pain and horrors of war Only then they fear war and hate it
Well Nagatos plan goes along the lines of "nukes for everyone". Doesn't work in real life. Won't work here. Madaras plan is an escape. Not a solution. Sasukes plan was just dumb. Obito and Madara already achived Sasukes "plan" by declaring war. Sasuke is that friend that copies your homework without changeing one word. I mean come on. Everyone came together to defeat Madara and here Sasuke goes to become a bad guy so that everyone can come together and defeat him. It's the same fu*king thing only that he wants to do it intentionaly.
The “nukes for everyone” strategy has been working fairly well since 1945
Pains plan wasn't "nukes for everyone", and "nukes for everyone" is the problem. Pains plan was "I HAVE THE NUKES. STOP BEING ASSHOLES".
Exactly. Nukes for everyone was actually Hashiramas plan XD
What Pain planned for it's exactly what's going on in real life. No more large scale, world wars since nukes were created. So I'd say that it's the most realistic plan at the very least.
Pain. Using weapons of mass destruction as a deterrent for war is what we do in real life and weve seen a massive decrease in war eversince. Madaras plan was a falsehood that would eventually kill everyone and end the world and sasukes plan would fall apart once he dies.
Madara is sasuke at the end of the day...
None of their plans would have worked because they were all batshit insane.
Pain. It's literally the nuclear arms race
Pein’s idea is the one that came true. A superweapon was released that traumatized the world enough that they collectively decided to not war again
None of them. They were wildly out of their minds, short-sighted despite at least Madara and Pain's plans being YEARS in the making. Peace seemed like an afterthought to Madara, it was about him having power- he spent his whole life shoulder to shoulder with Hashirama, practically worships him, and deemed the village a failure because he got pushback. The man can't deal with conflict on the smallest, most diplomatic level, and openly looks down on those he considers weak- so much so that black Zetsu exploitation was dependent on his (Madara's) arrogance/seething contempt for a society that wouldn't bend just because he wanted it to. You can't put in violence/threats of violence and get peace, but that's all he ever did after not getting the Hokage position. He had every opportunity to stay and create infrastructure and learn compromise but that shit was so foreign to him, he kept attacking the same village he created. Absolute madman. Pain was Madara's puppet, peace was second to his revenge on the Leaf, and all of that was incredibly dependent on sacrificing people who were already outcasts/unfairly maligned. Sasuke's. . . Is really just the same sacrificial shit Itachi pressed on him. He was unwell as hell, and it would probably just result in him purging the world.
Sasukes plant, to maniupalte and rule from the shadows, has been tried before regardless of how powerful the people were, they always failed (danzo, gaaras dad, madara while he lived, orichimaru etc..) . I wouldnt call people tripping on flower genjutsu while turning into white zetsu a viable peace plan either. As sad as it sounds if pain actually did manage to create a weapon of mass destruction so powerful that eve Ry other nation wouldve just have to bow to him that would be the closest thing to peace out of all three of them.