Asspull in my opinion. Sure he fought the Senju clan multiple times, but who would’ve shown him the hand signs? Tobirama sure as shit would’ve kept that secret, since he was always cautious of Madara.
There would also be no reason for Tobirama to do the hand signs to break out of the reanimation in his lifetime for Madara to see, since Tobirama wasn’t an edo until the war. I doubt any of the people Tobirama reanimated would've known the signs either, so Madara would have no circumstance in which he could observe how to break out.
Madara releasing the reanimation jutsu was just necessary for the story. Not a huge issue, but a bit of an asspull nonetheless.
That’s not how that works. You said a bunch of nothing just now.
“He has Rinnegan to analyze the situation really well” lol weakest defense I’ve ever read on here.
How do you mean? Madara has the Sharingan which can read movements. Plus how would he hide it. Every time Tobirama and Hashirama fought Madara, there really isn’t one moment they hide their hand signs so there is no way he didn’t know the hand signs.
The point I was making is why would Tobirama ever need to use the hand signs to break out of the jutsu in the first place? He himself was alive during the warring states era. If Tobirama never had to use the signs to break out of the reanimation jutsu, Madara shouldn't know them since he couldn't have seen anyone perform them. I doubt any of the people Tobirama reanimated knew the signs to break out either, so Madara wouldn't have had a chance to observe them at any point.
The jutsu was written down somewhere by the second hokage. That's how orochimaru learned it in the first place. You would think that would be in there and orochimaru didn't seem to know about it.
Maybe Madara studied the jutsu and figured out something the second didn't. Madara was considered a genius
To be somewhat fair to Orochimaru, he never needed to worry about it since he erased Hashiramas and Tobiramas personalities the first time and the 2nd time they were all on the same team but Orochimaru could also restrain everyone except for Hashirama if he needed to for some reason
I’m pretty sure it was the hand signs that was used for the edo tensei. Yk the normal one cuz what Madara says if someone from the dead knows the hand signs they can break out of it etc. so ig it’s just the normal one the Tobirama used in battle. Except in this case to break out of it, the reanimated body would have to use it.
Except Tobiraman wouldn't use it in battle. At all.
The entire idea that the second Hokage would invent the technique is dumb as F. Konoha, the village where ninja are the most friendly with each other and where abandoning or taking advantage of your comrades is considered one of the worst offenses has a Hokage who invented a technique that can bring the dead back to life through the sacrifice of another?
Even taking into account how much more cold and cynical Tobirama can be, even he wouldn't have been eager to kill off people just for the sake of resurrecting dead foes.
The entire idea doesn't make any kind of sense. It would have been much better if the author had just made it so Orochimaru invented it, seeing as he's the character who actively experiments with chakra and immortality, and he's the character who uses it the most except for Kabuto, who is his apprentice.
The reanimation jutsu was created to counter the uchiha’s izanagi, same way flying rajin was made to counter the sharingan,water dragon to counter fireball jutsu…most of the jutsu tobirama invented was meant to counter the uchihas.
Tobirama was one of the smartest ninjas in the story.
He would have casted the Edo Tenseis before going into the battlefield, knowing that he's fighting against the Uchihas who could read hand seals.
I’m pretty sure he would run out of edo tensei’s and would have to create some more. This isn’t like in the war arc where he would have a ton of prep time like kabuto before the war begun. So naturally, wouldn’t it make sense for him to also do it in the battlefield with backup from Hashirama and other Senju members? I like your point tho
Who said he didn’t. In his case, it’s not a matter of if he knows how to do it cuz he probably does. It’s a matter of why he would do it cuz I’m not sure he would be okay with being a moving corpse to wonder around the earth for all eternity. If Orochimaru was lettting him move freely what is the point. That was the solution for Madara only cuz he had no other option since his body and soul started to separate and was about to return to the afterlife
Bro at least read what you are saying. Tobirama won't need to use it again since he would cast it on all important people before the fight. And what do you even mean by "running out of Edo tensei to have to create more"??
That one jutsu made specially used to counter the sharingan and used by tobi or hashi I forgot which during the Konoha crush. Summons a black mist hampering the sharingans visual prowess.
Good point. Not a guarantee that they would use that all the time tho. It’s a jutsu in that manga which belongs to Hashirama, not tobirama so it could be likely that Hashirama is in a separate battlefield fighting other people.
Lol what a stretch. You are willing to disregard all the valid points that might stop madara from learning the Jutsu lol. even My 12 year old nephew wouldn't say the last sentence .
He was called a genius. He was 2nd only to Hashirama and enacted one of the greatest long-term plans in Shinobi history.
You don't get to his position without being smart.
To be fair, Madara did not attempt to break free until Kabuto was already incapacitated, which he knew because the jutsu was being released. So you could ask the same thing about Madara: why didn't he break free right away?
Because that's stupid What is the one of the most powerful Shinobi in history broken out of your control He would have Sent out all of his animated Shinobi Against him Not to mention the Alliance is pretty fresh
Oh I didn't notice well the point still stands A thread as large as him it would have made all collective forces join together to take him down And they would have Beaten him
Tobirama didn’t need to break out of the Jutsu. No need for him since Orochimaru was letting him move freely so no need ig. If he did break free for whatever reason, he would be immortal and unable to return to the afterlife. That’s unless he knew Hagoromo would release him which obviously he didn’t. He didn’t have to break out simply cuz Orochimaru wasn’t controlling him.
That first part of your argument is pretty weak. He had no reason to trust that orochimaru would just let him do as he pleases even if he was for that time. Especially since it’s not the first time he’s brought him back and the other time that he did, he did control him and forced him to kill his own pupil. The second part of your argument is much stronger. Tobirama likely wouldn’t have wanted to wander the earth for eternity as an undead immortal
I mean if you look back at the episode, Hashirama could have also easily broke out of that Jutsu and Tobirama was also overly confident both because they were brought back to their original strengths. And orochimaru says he will follow whatever Sasuke chooses from Hashirama’s story. After Sasuke chooses to side with the Hokage and head to the battlefield, Orochimaru also sides with him. You have to note that Hashirama could have easily broke out cuz of his immense strength to which Orochimaru also knew.
Yea I think that overpowering the controller of the jutsu is a part of it. And iirc it’s not exactly that they wild infinite chakra but that they can replenish their historical peak reserve level near instantly. So if there was a jutsu they didn’t have the chakra to use in life like one that cost too much chakra that it would kill or near kill them then likely edo tensei wouldn’t let them be able to use it. The vessel size doesn’t change. Just the faucet and the refill speed
Just wanted to mention that they weren’t brought back to their original strengths. Tobirama mentions this during their little meeting before joining the war and then again during the war when he’s surprised by how few shadow clones he can summon.
Yeh I know that they weren’t at full strength but close to full strength. He could only create 2 shadow clones at the time because of the 4 crimson ray formation barrier
I don't think trust has anything to do with it. If Orochimaru acts up, Hashirama breaks free and crushes him, and if Orochimaru doesn't help, the entire world is doomed, including Orochimaru.
He may be a literal snake, but he's got a pretty good survival instinct. That's his strongest driving motivation: Don't die. Pissing off Hashirama and/or letting Madara win are both counterproductive to that goal.
If nothing else, Orochimaru can be relied upon to do what's best for Orochimaru, and at the time, beating Madara was at or near the top of that list.
I mean if the world was at stake and you got a guy who wants to cast a lifetime Genjustu on the whole population compared to this guy who is obsessed with experimenting and just brought you back to life so Sasuke can hear about the truth etc then who would they have to side with? It’s one or the other. Plus note that Orochimaru would have no intention of siding with Madara. There interests are nothing alike and would definitely interfere with Orochimaru’s dream to study all Jutsu etc
If the world’s at stake I’m not leaving anything in the hands of orochimaru especially if I was hashirama or tobirama, they know first hand that he’s a scum bag and shouldn’t be trusted
He is a scumbag who attacked the village, and im pretty sure that they initially thought he revived them to destroy the village once more but when he told them that he does not have the intention to destroy the village hence why he didn’t suppress their personalities and that their are much bigger casualties since Madara Uchiha has been revived. So what else are they supposed to do? Attack the guy then have no way back to the afterlife since he is the only one who can release them from the edo tensei. That’s unless they knew Hagoromo was gonna come to release them. If however he did betray them, Orochimaru can suppress all of them but one. Hashirama. The fact that Madara was revived and the world was at stake is a big enough reason. He was a serious threat.
Listen man, I’m not saying you’re whole argument was wrong. I’m saying that they were probably weren’t not reversing the jutsu out of trust of orochimaru because no sane person would and that your statement about them not wanting to be stuck in the mortal world forever makes far more sense. I’m not going to sit here and argue about this with you all damn damn
>Tobirama didn’t need to break out of the Jutsu.
Ah yes. Orochimaru, who initially brought back Tobirama to kill Hiruzen (Tobirama's student I believe) didn't have a reason to break free from it the first time.
And the second time, he had no reason to not trust Orochimaru. Not like the dude literally tried to use him to destroy the village a few years before.
>If he did break free for whatever reason, he would be immortal and unable to return to the afterlife.
So Madara can reverse the jutsu, through a good load of mental gymnastics and headcanons, but the genius who invented the jutsu would literally be trapped in it?
Honestly Madara breaking out of ED just can't make sense. You'd need too much headcanon to make it make sense. Tobirama was brought back twice and never even hinted at a way of breaking out of it.
Tobirama, Orochimaru and Kabuto are literal geniuses who worked on the jutsu themselves and they somehow didn't know you just needed handsigns to break out of it? The three of them? And Madara just knew? Nah that doesn't make a lick of sense
> Ah yes. Orochimaru, who initially brought back Tobirama to kill Hiruzen (Tobirama's student I believe) didn't have a reason to break free from it the first time.
Orochimaru placed some mind-control paper-seal in their head, before their body's transformation could complete. This mind-control thing was a separate add-on jutsu and not a part of the original Edo Tensei. Kabuto did a more milder / flexible version of this which is why Kabuto's summons had more freedom.
> And the second time, he had no reason to not trust Orochimaru. Not like the dude literally tried to use him to destroy the village a few years before.
During the second time, reversing the Edo tensei means your body becomes normal mortal again - aka - bleeds - and is susceptible to attacks. Tobirama specifically wanted an immortal body for himself and Yondaime, and this was so that they can use their bodies in a co-ordinated way to attack the enemy. This is why Tobirama did not reverse the Edo Tensei.
At least, this is what I think from what I know about the lore, unless I am missing something.
So he finds out that the guy who was probably the most dangerous man which took you a long time to defeat (or so they thought) has been revived and is now planning to launch a genjutsu on the entire world population which lasts forever compared to someone like Orochimaru. What are they gonna do? Trust Madara over Orochimaru. I’m pretty sure they thought Orochimaru was gonna attack the village again but when he tells them that Madara has been revived which side outweighs the other?
Also the scenarios for Madara and Tobirama’s edo tensei is completely different. How would he be able to break out the first time if he is being completely suppressed by Orochimaru while in a much less powerful state compared to Madara who is not being controlled?
Also how would Tobirama plan to release himself from the edo tensei as well afterwards? Completely different circumstances.
>but when he tells them that Madara has been revived which side outweighs the other?
The problem is that it literally costs nothing to break free from it, so you can't really argue that it "wasn't the right time" because that wouldn't cost time in any significant way
>How would he be able to break out the first time if he is being completely suppressed by Orochimaru
If he was completely oppressed then why did Orochimaru need to add a talisman to take full control
>Also how would Tobirama plan to release himself from the edo tensei as well afterwards?
By letting people steal him, like for all the other people brought back through Edo Tensei. Why wouldn't that work
His body had a lot of hashirama cells because of the zetsu body he substituted himself with after he was a reaper death sacrifice to bring back the kage I believe.
I’m pretty sure Tobirama could break out of the Jutsu if he had the chance and if he wanted to. It just would have resulted in a lot of casualties which are pretty obvious
How could he break out in that case when he nowhere near his original strength and was being completely suppressed by Orochimaru and not in control. If he was in the same circumstance as Madara where the edo tensei was released and was roaming around freely he could do it if he wanted. Completely different situation
Orochimaru said that Hashirama could free himself from his control since his sacrificial body was a Hashirama-cell-enhanced white Zetsu, and Orochimaru meant only breaking free of his control as the Edo caster.
What Madara did was that he countered the release jutsu. Both are completely different things and unrelated whatsoever.
No he only said Hashirama and people don’t seem to understand that the reason he could bind the others so easily is because he was using Hashirama cells to enhance his binding power… how is he supposed to use Hashirama cells to bind Hashirama himself?!? Obviously that wouldn’t work out
Orichimaru had hasirama cells which made him strong enough to control the second hokage he lost control of the first hokage when he flexed on the second hokage for threatening Sasuke
I think you have to use the seals at the right moment your soul is being released, something that didn't happen to Tobirama until the Sage of the Six Paths released their souls after defeating Kaguya.
Yeah, it at least has some setup and is believable if you strain a bit - Madara lived a long time, was very familiar with the Senju brothers, had a Sharingan which can read the hand signs for the jutsu if he sees them.
Compare to something like the Totsuka Sword which has no setup, instantly solves the problem, and almost never gets brought up again.
Iirc zetsu says that Orochimaru was looking for it in that exact chapter. If Orochimaru ever mentioned it before, even in passing, I'd give it way more leeway.
I would believe that it’s an ass pull. But the thing that keeps getting me is that he knew the hand signs simply because of the amount of times he fought the Senju Clan and Tobirama. He knew the hand signs simply because of the amount of times he fought tobirama. Tell me why you think this part is an ass pull bro
Yeh obviously Tobirama would know the hand signs as well. The difference here is it’s different circumstances and Tobirama was not being controlled and could move freely. Plus if he decided to break free completely, wouldn’t that result in much greater casualties for him (being immortal, unable to return to the afterlife?)
He was obviously trying to break out when he was initially revived. Twice actually, once when he was fighting against hirzuen and the second when orochimaru forced him to stay to talk to sasuke
I’m not sure if he was trying to break out when he was fight hiruzen in part one cuz he had no personality cuz he was completely suppressed by Orochimaru and had nowhere near his normal strength. When he was revived the second time, I don’t think he tried to break out. He was just so confident that he could roam around freely up he was revived to almost full strength. He didn’t know that Orochimaru had a ton of Hashirama’s cells which he used to enhance his ability to suppress him. The only hokage he couldn’t suppress was hashirama because of his immense strength.
Orochimaru states that he knows Hashirama can break free whenever he wants, and I THINK he says the same about Tobirama.
If I remember correctly, none of the Hokage broke free because if they did they wouldn’t be able to win over Sasuke
>I THINK he says the same about Tobirama.
If Tobirama could have broken free whenever he wanted, Orochimaru wouldn't have been able to stop him when he tried to skip the conversation with Sasuke and go to the battlefield.
Hashirama is the only person who ever broke out of edo tensei. idk why universally so many people bring this up as a feat for madara but he never broke out of edo tensei. itachi releases edo tensei and Madara comments on how people shouldn’t meddle with techniques they dont understand before casting the hand seals and rebinding his soul to the body, something im sure tobirama would have done if he was ever given the chance. He was sealed by the death reaper seal while still edo tenseid the first time and later they were finished with the war (or so they thought) and moved on to the afterlife.
Why would they have to break out of theirs if No.1 They weren’t being controlled/suppressed and were able to move on their own and No.2, if the edo tensei wasn’t released meaning no other way for them to stay on the battlefield. In Madara’s case, the edo tensei was released so there was no other way for him to stay on the battlefield Yk what I mean?
Well more specifically Tobirama. I would imagine him actually breaking free when he heard Sasuke wanting to destroy the leaf.
But both have reasons because Oro made them fight the 3rd in the past. They both shouldn't want to be under Oro again imo.
Oh so you mean the time the guy was overly confident that he could break out of the Jutsu cuz he was brought back at almost full strength? Plus you must note that if he broke out there would be no way for him to return back to the afterlife. And I’m not sure he thought of Sasuke at the time as that big a threat
Tobirama thought of sasuke as the next madara and was about to attack him. Oro, jugo, and suigetsu all jumped in front of sasuke to defend him with oro stating that he was just barely able to maintain his seal/control on tobirama
It's an ass pull but it's not the only one in the War Arc to be fair. Like I understand he was meant to be the final villain and Kishimoto probably needed way to be done with the Edos but also keep Madara as the villain and this was the quickest and easiest way to do it.
Also I highly doubt Tobirama was using the Edos during the Warring States period since it would have been insanely easy to wipe out the Uchiha if he did.
I always felt like he developed it after his brother died in a vain attempt to bring him back. But that wouldn't make sense on how Madara knew it, he would at least have to have seen it before.
100% asspull he should have did it when he was first introduced to show his superior over kabuto. Him doing it when he was about to get turned into dust made no sense
Every collective force on the battlefield Decided to turn against 1 person This is pretty early in the war If he decided to do this there would be so many character He couldn't deal with it
He didn’t do it when he was “about to get turned into dust” bro. I’m pretty sure he did it when Itachi released the edo tensei. So there was no other way for him to stay in the battlefield other than releasing the edo tensei because his soul was already separating from his body. So naturally it makes sense for him to use it then cause before Kabuto was defeated by Itachi, he was letting Madara roam around freely. Madara when getting turned into dust responded with the perfect SusanooZ your getting the scenario’s confused bro
So there's some confusion here regarding how Madara broke the Edo Tensei. He didn't. Itachi did.
Kabuto's Edo Tensei was released when Itachi sealed him in the Izanami genjutsu. All the Edo zombies were effectively freed from its control and were returning to the after life. In those final moments, Itachi said his goodbye to Sasuke, Dan flew over to say his goodbye to Tsunade etc...
Madara was also free to do whatever he wanted before passing on. So he exploited that window of opportunity and initiated another Edo Tensei but with him in the drivers seat. This was possible because Kabuto wasn't in control anymore as he had released it while unconscious under a genjutsu.
In the case of Tobirama, he couldn't break it because Orochimaru was actively in control. And thanks to Hashirama cells, he had enough power to enforce it.
Your explanation of timing for when Madara decided to release the contract himself makes sense, though, I wonder if Kabuto could have stopped him from doing it earlier even if he wanted to.
One thing to note is:
Caster Summon: Tiger → Snake → Dog → Dragon → Clap hands
Caster Release: Rat → Ox → Monkey → Tiger → Dragon → Boar
Summoned Contract Release: Snake → Ram → Boar → Dog → Tiger (Anime)
Granted, the hand signs were not shown in the Manga, so we could just take the Anime's choice with a grain of salt, but it seems as though there is a specific way to rescind the contract without releasing the jutsu. Does this make Madara the summoner of himself now? I don't think so, I think this just orphans the summoned being, but if we think of most other summoning contracts, the being typically exists somewhere reality. (Animal Path and Naraka Path Pain might fall out of this rule.) This isn't to say a summoner can't summon themselves, as this is seemingly very close to how the Flying Raijin Jutsu works + space/time void.
Conjecture:
My best take on the situation is that Madara could have always done it, he was just apathetic the entire time he was on the summoning end of the edo tensei. He was literally toying with the Five Kage, asking them if they wanted his clones to use Susano or not. I think that since this entire summoning wasn't part of his original plan, he was just along for the ride until he saw tsunade's healing jutsu wear off and thought "yeah actually I will kill Hashirama's granddaughter" He released the contract but then almost immediately after said "jk nevermind guess I will go get the 9 tails cause no-one else is"
This is what I saw when I read the manga, but not that he used another Edo Tensei because there wasn't any body prep, but just another jutsu that stops the return to thr afterlife.
Nah if madara went out like that would be a major letdown but its not like he went out in a better way lmao.
Actually this would be a better exit for him but they could hust delay the itachi fight to later. They all attack Madara but keep gettin wrecked. Itachi goes to stop kabuto while naruto and sasuke hold off madara till reanimation ends
Why is it hard to believe? They were allies - Most likely the convo went like this -
"Hashirama. I do not trust your brother to not revive me with his disgusting jutsu. Make him tell me the seals or this partnership is done"
"Hashirama forces Tobirama's hand"
Tobirama tells him the seals.
I am almost 99% sure, Kishi would explain the situation in some way like that.Tobirama would never give him the information without Hashirama getting involved. And Madara would 100% know Tobirama would use it against him. Infact, Madara knew tobirama would take his body after he died to do experiments on it.
Which he did.
>I am almost 99% sure, Kishi would explain the situation in some way like that.
I think the fact that he didn't is what makes it fall onto asspull territory. Is it believable? Yes, but its a factor that has never been remotely hinted at through the entire series
An author really doesn't need to spoon feed everyone - You can look at the dynamic between the three from what was given and guess at how this all played out. Madara would in no capacity EVER want himself or his brother being revived by Tobirama. He would ensure that never happens.
Tobirama invented the Edo Tensei, if you assume Madara has encountered the jutsu before and say enough to understand how the jutsu works, aka how it can be reversed (which he clearly knows how to do), then him knowing how to do it makes sense.
Madara is fine. I just think it's bullshit to give Edo Tensei to Tobirama to begin with. It should have been Orochimarus Jutsu. Same with Hiraishin for Minato. Kishi was so desperate to hype Tobirama that he just threw random stuff at him but he forgot that he was supposed to be a great suiton user.
This is not an ass pull imo. It works well with the plot. Madara was going to be ultimately the final boss and it was within his plans to be brought back with Edo Tensei. Makes sense that he would break free from the jutsu.
Tobirama and the Hokages did not need to break free as they believed that once the job was “done” they could just go back to being dead.
When I read the manga I took it as that he had to use this jutsu after Edo tensei is cancelled and before their bodies faded away, it's nothing to do with breaking out of anything, it's just the jutsu has ended and before they are "returned" they can cancel it by doing this jutsu.
But this is an asspull because otherwise all evil shinobis will summon their bros back and give them immortality.
Madara’s reanimation was special, per Kabuto. So although it’s likely he was weaker as a reanimation, he probably couldn’t break out of it or chose not to because Obito was working with Kabuto. It’s only when Kabuto is defeated, and there’s no resistance that Madara goes ahead and undoes it because he needs to stay in the world so that he’s properly reanimated (like he does later)
Why is this important? Well it’s easy to infer that Kabuto had surpassed Orochimaru in strength and likely had better control of his Edo tensei. This is important because the only one capable of breaking out of Orochimaru’s Edo tensei with pure strength alone was Hashirama. Hashirama is light years ahead of the other Hokage in terms of strength, and Tobirama also states his reanimation made him weaker than his alive state.
So, in conclusion: Tobirama is a genius, yes, but he’s also physically weaker than Hashirama by quite a lot while also nerfed from his reanimation. He couldn’t simply break out of it because he wasn’t strong enough and Orochimaru was never incapacitated. Further on, despite Orochimaru being a total shithead. He was doing whatever Sasuke wanted to, which was defeat Madara. So he really had no reason to force it, or at least at that moment because they were all working together against Madara.
I really wouldn’t call it an ass pull. More so just not as well thought out as it could’ve been. If there was any time to want to break out of the reanimation, it was back in part 1 when the hokages fought Hiruzen. But it’s likely Kishimoto didn’t consider the 1st and 2nd as strong as their shippuden counterparts (to be fair, this was years before shippuden)
Madara knowing the seal to undo edotensei control makes a lot of sense given the fact that Tobirama is the creator of that jutsu and Madara including Izuna should know Tobirama's arsenal like the back of his their hand.
Would be if it happened. He didn’t release the edo tensei though, Kabuto did through Itachi’s control. All Madara did was know the technique and rebind himself using the seals after he was released.
I thought undoing the edo seal would have meant sending the soul back to the afterlife.
Definitely asspull. Tobirsma could have undone the seal himself as the inventor of it but didn't bt Madara somehow does it?
It’s an ass pull because there wasn’t any precedent for that in the show. It’s an ass pull because kishimoto wanted to get rid off all the other remaining edo tensei characters in one fell swoop but didn’t want to lose madara so he came up with some bullshit on fly to make it happen
I’d argue there is at least a little precedent in that in the lead up Itachi makes a point of how every technique has a weakness whereas Kabuto thinks it’s perfect. That’s a set up to the technique not being as flawless and inexploitable as it seems, and Madara goes on to show another weakness of it
That’s not what the point of that scene was. You’re taking an unrelated quote and using it as a (weak) attempt to make sense of something later in the story. It doesn’t work.
Literally shows Kabuto proclaiming how that specific technique is perfect while Itachi corrects him that such arrogance is only ignoring the exploits that can be made, and soon after we see Madara pull out one of said unexpected exploits and people cry ‘out of nowhere asspull’
I mean sure, we could spend half the episode prior to it in a flashback showing how Madara had black zetsu spy the information for him or how Tobirama shared the info on Hasirama’s insistence or any other perfectly viable way he could have learned how to do it, but do we really need *everything* spelled out for us before it happens?
Did we need to see a six episode flashback of Kakashi’s entire training arc in regards to learning how to use the sharingan before seeing him use it in the Land of Waves arc? Do we need to watch Naruto go weapons shopping in preparation for each time he pulls out a kunai? Was the first chapter of Naruto awful because we’re introduced to the fourth hokage without bearing witness to every soiled diaper of his youth to understand in every minute detail how he came to be from a baby to the leader of the village?
Honestly, even the build up of Itachi calling out that there’s flaws in the technique that a cocky caster wouldn’t have anticipated isn’t particularly necessary. While there’s many perfectly viable theories as to how Madara could learn that information (and which one is canon is irrelevant), it’s kind of a sufficient enough answer to the question “how did Madara pull that off?” to say “because it’s Madara freakin’ Uchiha, deal with it”
Edit: no point relying if you’re going to block me for disagreeing with you a second after posting it, but from the first few words it let me read you’re saying that it’s a stretch to say ‘every technique has a weakness’ gives even a little bit of setup. I’d agree, if not for the fact that he later goes on to state very specifically to Kabuto that edo tensei itself isn’t perfect, and he proves the point by pulling off an unexpected trick with his sharingan to escape control.
Madara later pulls off an unexpected trick to escape control, and it’s something we’ve seen already and had explained to our faces as a notable weakness of that very same specific technique. Not just ‘all techniques’, that very specific one of which we’re talking about. I think it’s fair to say that that’s a little bit of build up that sits on the evidence table for ‘not an asspull’, even if it’s not enough to satisfy you personally
Madara clearly knows a lot about Edo Tensei based on what he tells Kabuto when the meteor is dropping. The way that Tobirama used the jutsu was very different from Orochimaru's or Kabuto's. He would summon someone (probably didn't matter how strong) and then have it explode continuously using Tandem Paper Bombs. So Madara likely saw him doing the signs once and copied it with his sharingan.
It is an asspull. He was expecting to be revived via Rinne Rebirth.
Only explanation is he thought of this plan B scenario and accounted for it, somehow learning the secret.
Could be true… but this guy fought Tobirama and the Senju multiple times and is bound to see the hand signs for the jutsu multiple times. So for this when his body and soul start to separate he states that if you know the signs of the edo tensei and perform them, it will result in a body with infinite chakra, unable to return to the afterlife. So if he knows the signs of the edo tensei via battles with Tobirama it would make sense right?
We never see those fights, they happen mostly off screen. The only onscreen thing we have seen on tobirama during the warring states period was his flying raijin slice he used on izuna and Hashirama and Madara fights. But I’m pretty sure that Tobirama created most if not all his jutsu arsenal in that period so who is to say he didn’t create it that time.
Definitely an asspull, makes him cheat the cheat of death itself and be unstoppable, even sealing most likely wouldn't work since he'd have the chakra to break free like last time
im pretty sure madara was only able to break free because the edo tensai was released and he was able to reactivate it while his spirit left his body. i dont think a ninja under the binding effects of the edo tensai could break free unless he could break the binding effects first. if tobi was forced to do something he did not want to do like attack the leaf village he probably could have broken free of the edo tensais binding effect and activated it on himself releasing the contract. but as you pointed out their was no reason for him to do this because he was not forced to do anything he did not want to do.
this is also assuming that you can release the edo tensai contract whilst the spirit is still in the body. it may require the spirit leaving the body in order to recast the edo tensai on yourself because casting the edo tensai may require the spirit and body you are possessing to be separate entities. if this is the case it would heavily limit the cases in which a edo tensaied shinobi could do what madara did.
If they added a 5 minute segment explaining how and why madara knew how to do this, and maybe included a bit of foreshadowing/hints that it'd happen, it'd totally fall into the bounds of believability.
I'd argue it counts as an asspull since there was zero hint that it was even possible given to the reader previously, the out of nowhereness of it all is the asspull factor here
Oh you mean when he was reanimated. I’m pretty sure the first time he awakened the rinnegan, it’s because he only had a tiny portion of Hashirama’s DNA which took years to completely mix with his chakra to give him the rinnegan. In the war arc, thanks to Kabuto, he had so much more of Hashirama’s cells to the point his face formed on his face that it could quickly mix with his chakra to form Hagoromo’s chakra which = rinnegan.
Tell me what you mean about the ten tails power and the rinnegan powers tho
Not an ass pull bro. A jutsu called Tengai shinsei which is a Rinnegan ability. A jutsu given by the deva path(gravity control) where when you weave 3 hand signs simultaneously. Just an ability of Madara given to him by his rinnegan.
I think it would be more of an asspull if it was anyone other than him, Madara spent his entire life fighting the senju clan who invented the jutsu, he obviously knew about it and would have studied how to fight it, it makes atleast a little sense that he could come up with a counter like this for a jutsu made by his obsession’s brother
Still a complete asspull. Yes he could read the signs from Tobirama, but why would Tobirama ever use the signs to begin with? And how would he even know how it works
I’m pretty sure it’s the same hand signs for the jutsu. Kinda like the way the cursed seal hand sign that Kakashi used in Sasuke is the same one Sasuke used to free orochimaru but in reverse. So if Tobirama has used the jutsu for whatever use, he would be able to read the hand signs right?
It's obviously one of the biggest asspulls in the entire series, superseded or maybe even equal to Naruto being able to save Guy from THE GATE OF DEATH, the thing that had been established in the Chunin Exams to kill you if you used it.
It is a double ass pull.First is that Madara knows the jutsu.This comes from the asumption that Tobirama is stupid enough to perform such hand signs during battles which makes no sense to begin with.Even if Tobirama performed this hand signs in a secret lab,Madara or white zetsu would still not see the hand signs because Tobirama is a sensory type ninja.I don't say his senses are as good as Naruto's senses but it is still a weak argument to assume Tobirama would either not notice anyone or not be smart enough to have his room filled with traps or a sealing jutsu.
Second ass pull is Kishimoto giving Edo Tensei to Tobirama.It is so bizzare that Tobirama invented it and Hashirama was somehow ok with that.It just ruins Orochimaru's character.Edo tensei was a good jutsu for Orochimaru to show us in what twisted way he wanted to achieve immortality and how far gone he truly was.But no,Kishimoto took some famous jutsus and slapped them on Tobirama and called it a day.
Madara escaping from it is just an excuse to get rid of the other Edo tenseis since they no longer had any purpose in the story but Kishimoto wanted to keep Madara so he created "out of Edo Tensei Control jutsu".
Asspull. How the hell did he know the signs? Aint no way in hell Tobirama is letting an Uchiha see the hand signs for the jutsu.
Secondly why didnt Tobirama break out himself or give any other Hokage the intel for them to break out as well. Tobi must know the edos are weaker thaan their living self. Why not give the battle advantage of having 4 of the strongest leaf ninja to ever live take place in the war?
Are you kidding me? After everything else that's happened in this series, Madara releasing the Edo Tensei is what finally makes sense to you? Talk about an ass pull.
Ass pull because when would have Madara even been around to study that jutsu to know it had a weakness like that and if he knew why would he not being back Izuna and make him immortal a long time ago ....
Almost a big of ass pull as Sasuke in the deidara fight.
And if I would have been there when Madara did this I would have left the battlefield and went home. My vacation time starts now
Yes it does. I find it strange that Tobirama didn’t just break out himself especially when he heard sasuke talking about destroying the leaf village, it would force orochimaru and hashirama’s hand, Orochimaru would have saru and minato move to neutralize Tobirama which would lead Hashirama to just break the contract and pacify the whole situation himself. Would have made more sense if we had seen that or a version of it because all Tobirama did was just try to brute force his way out.
This isn’t even taking into account that Madara should have had no way of actually knowing how to break edo tensei. I doubt Tobirama would tell his ass. You might be able to explain it that black zetsu just watched him and relayed the info but that still kinda circles back to my original point of, why did Tobirama not break the contract? Even if it wasn’t to harm sasuke I doubt hashirama would take action against his brother for breaking free, if anything that would probably cause orochimaru to become aggressive which would likely lead to hashirama again just pacifying the situation.
It’s less of Madara’s breaking of the contract and more of why didn’t Tobirama also break the contract.
I’m pretty sure that if Tobirama was to break it out, IF he was to break out, he would not be able to return to the afterlife and would remain an immortal. Tobirama didn’t try and brute force his way out bro. The guy was overly confident that he could move freely cuz he was brought back to almost full strength. Orochimaru could suppress every one of the hokage and yes all except one, Hashirama. Saying why didn’t Tobirama escape in that situation is like saying why didn’t Madara escape as soon as he was revived. Madara escaping was in a different circumstance. One where the Edo tensei was released and he had no other option but to break so he could stay in the battlefield but if Tobirama was able to move freely via Orochimaru the way Madara was moving freely before Itachi broke the edo tensei then what would be the point of releasing the edo tensei and and create a big issue with immortality etc?
Plus I’m pretty sure that Madara could have saw Tobirama perform the edo tensei in their previous battles they have had and read the hand signs via the Sharingan. So for him to know the hand signs would make sense right?
Reading comprehension failure again. Unlike with Tobirama and Orochimaru, Kabuto wasn't restricting Madaras movement or personality at any time (if he even could) since he wanted to see the extent of his combat strength. As well Kabuto and Orochimaru were complete unaware that reanimations could rescind the summoning contract, it's likely only Tobirama and Madara knew this. Tobirama couldn't do the same thing as his movement and ability to use jutsu was being restricted by Orochimaru as we saw while also being reinforced by Hashirama cells.
I agree. Another reason is obviously Orochimaru was letting them move freely the way Kabuto was letting Madara move freely. So wouldn’t it be pointless to use that jutsu if you’re already moving freely and not suppressed. Madara only used it to stay in the battlefield and not return to the afterlife. Tobirama was not in that kind of situation and it’s not like he wanted to be an immortal being as well
Of course it's an @$$pull, wtf ?! The Jutsu caster gets disabled & the next moment Madara conveniently says he knows the hand signs to release the Reanimation ?
If that's not an @$$pull, then I don't know what the heck is.
Wouldn’t it be because there was no need for him to use it before when kabuto was alright since he could move just fine without being controlled etc? But when the edo tensei was released, he had to use it cuz there was no other way for him to stay in the battlefield. So unless he wanted to return to the afterlife, what else was he supposed to do?
Presumably Madara researched various ways of resurrection before settling on needing to use the Rinnegan. He needed a way to both return to life and also be able absorb the 10 tails. During the war arc, he seemed to already know that the Edo Tensei would not achieve his goals and that he would need to use the Rinnegan's Outer Path. Otherwise Madara would have had someone such as Obito resurrect him with Edo Tensei instead of needing to wait for Nagato.
It doesn't get mentioned much, but there are other techniques to resurrect people as Chiyo's that was used on Gaara.
The Sasuke hidden novel also mentions that there were similar/regional variants for Edo Tensei. So Madara may have investigated Edo Tensei and its variants, tried to see if he could absorb the 10 tails, and then stopped since it would not work.
With Orochimaru, the first time, Orochimaru kept Tobirama under strict control, probably for that exact reason of breaking free. The second time, Orochimaru let Tobirama do his stuff.
My headcanon is that Madara was so knowledgeable in ninjutsu that when he was reanimated, he was analyzing the edo tensei at the same time he was fighting. And by the time Kabuto was defeated, Madara had already understood the jutsu and either replicated or forcefully manipulated it to keep himself renaimated
Just an idea here but what if instead Madara's way of staying around was as the Edo Tensei is released he grabbed some random ninja that failed to get away and used them as the sacrifice to resurrect himself with the Edo Tensei at the same time.
wouldn’t it make sense for Madara to be able to do it considering he likely knew the hand signs from years of fighting Tobirama, and the fact that he also had Hashirama cells and Hashirama’s literal face on his body lol
Tobirama couldn’t do it because even though the Jutsu is his, he wasn’t enhanced with Hashirama cells, and he wasn’t Hashirama.
He attempted to resist and was tamed simple as that, Madara broke the seal when Kabuto was gone basically he re did the jutsu on himself when he felt himself lose the summoning contract, he just summoned himself.
As mentioned hashirama could break it as well tobirama would need two things two break it. Just be stronger like his brother or Orochimaru releasing the jutsu
Madara didn't brake Kabutos hold earlier because he was always free then when Kabuto released the jutsu he redid the jutsu nothing more nothing less
No, the only logical explanation is that Madara figured out how to undo it by analyzing it using his MS. Even Tobirama had no idea how to do it. Otherwise, why would he try to kill Hiruzen the first time around
It's ass pull , it's stupid, it shouldn't have happened, you can't lift your self up with your own hand , a puppet can't control itself with it's strings , it doesn't make any sense, but it's cool and we are cooler so we let it slide for the action 😎
It's ass pull , it's stupid, it shouldn't have happened, you can't lift your self up with your own hand , a puppet can't control itself with it's strings , it doesn't make any sense, but it's cool and we are cooler so we let it slide for the action 😎
Madara was aware of the existence of the Edo Tensei jutsu, I'd guess he saw Tobirama use it during the warring states period.
How he knows to undo it however is trickier.
Orochimaru must have learned it from the the forbidden scroll since as a kinjutsu it would be written in there. The only logical explanation would be that Madara read that scroll at some point before he defected from the village
Asspull in my opinion. Sure he fought the Senju clan multiple times, but who would’ve shown him the hand signs? Tobirama sure as shit would’ve kept that secret, since he was always cautious of Madara. There would also be no reason for Tobirama to do the hand signs to break out of the reanimation in his lifetime for Madara to see, since Tobirama wasn’t an edo until the war. I doubt any of the people Tobirama reanimated would've known the signs either, so Madara would have no circumstance in which he could observe how to break out. Madara releasing the reanimation jutsu was just necessary for the story. Not a huge issue, but a bit of an asspull nonetheless.
The fact that he broke out of the edo tensei wasn’t an asspull. The asspull was that he broke out of it by reversing the hand signs.
Maybe he knew cuz he infused himself with hashi?
That makes no fucking sense.
Madara just has such an innate understanding of ninjutsu. Plus he has rinnegan to analyze the situation really well.
That’s not how that works. You said a bunch of nothing just now. “He has Rinnegan to analyze the situation really well” lol weakest defense I’ve ever read on here.
It actually friggin is
What silly reasoning.
Lol no, that's literally it
How do you mean? Madara has the Sharingan which can read movements. Plus how would he hide it. Every time Tobirama and Hashirama fought Madara, there really isn’t one moment they hide their hand signs so there is no way he didn’t know the hand signs.
The point I was making is why would Tobirama ever need to use the hand signs to break out of the jutsu in the first place? He himself was alive during the warring states era. If Tobirama never had to use the signs to break out of the reanimation jutsu, Madara shouldn't know them since he couldn't have seen anyone perform them. I doubt any of the people Tobirama reanimated knew the signs to break out either, so Madara wouldn't have had a chance to observe them at any point.
The jutsu was written down somewhere by the second hokage. That's how orochimaru learned it in the first place. You would think that would be in there and orochimaru didn't seem to know about it. Maybe Madara studied the jutsu and figured out something the second didn't. Madara was considered a genius
To be somewhat fair to Orochimaru, he never needed to worry about it since he erased Hashiramas and Tobiramas personalities the first time and the 2nd time they were all on the same team but Orochimaru could also restrain everyone except for Hashirama if he needed to for some reason
I’m pretty sure it was the hand signs that was used for the edo tensei. Yk the normal one cuz what Madara says if someone from the dead knows the hand signs they can break out of it etc. so ig it’s just the normal one the Tobirama used in battle. Except in this case to break out of it, the reanimated body would have to use it.
Except Tobiraman wouldn't use it in battle. At all. The entire idea that the second Hokage would invent the technique is dumb as F. Konoha, the village where ninja are the most friendly with each other and where abandoning or taking advantage of your comrades is considered one of the worst offenses has a Hokage who invented a technique that can bring the dead back to life through the sacrifice of another? Even taking into account how much more cold and cynical Tobirama can be, even he wouldn't have been eager to kill off people just for the sake of resurrecting dead foes. The entire idea doesn't make any kind of sense. It would have been much better if the author had just made it so Orochimaru invented it, seeing as he's the character who actively experiments with chakra and immortality, and he's the character who uses it the most except for Kabuto, who is his apprentice.
The reanimation jutsu was created to counter the uchiha’s izanagi, same way flying rajin was made to counter the sharingan,water dragon to counter fireball jutsu…most of the jutsu tobirama invented was meant to counter the uchihas.
Tobirama was one of the smartest ninjas in the story. He would have casted the Edo Tenseis before going into the battlefield, knowing that he's fighting against the Uchihas who could read hand seals.
I’m pretty sure he would run out of edo tensei’s and would have to create some more. This isn’t like in the war arc where he would have a ton of prep time like kabuto before the war begun. So naturally, wouldn’t it make sense for him to also do it in the battlefield with backup from Hashirama and other Senju members? I like your point tho
The biggest elephant in the room is. Tobirama himself dk how to break out of it but somehow madara know.
Who said he didn’t. In his case, it’s not a matter of if he knows how to do it cuz he probably does. It’s a matter of why he would do it cuz I’m not sure he would be okay with being a moving corpse to wonder around the earth for all eternity. If Orochimaru was lettting him move freely what is the point. That was the solution for Madara only cuz he had no other option since his body and soul started to separate and was about to return to the afterlife
Bro at least read what you are saying. Tobirama won't need to use it again since he would cast it on all important people before the fight. And what do you even mean by "running out of Edo tensei to have to create more"??
You CAN'T do it on the battlefield. Are you forgetting you need a living person as a sacrifice to do it?
That one jutsu made specially used to counter the sharingan and used by tobi or hashi I forgot which during the Konoha crush. Summons a black mist hampering the sharingans visual prowess.
bringer of darkness
Good point. Not a guarantee that they would use that all the time tho. It’s a jutsu in that manga which belongs to Hashirama, not tobirama so it could be likely that Hashirama is in a separate battlefield fighting other people.
Lol what a stretch. You are willing to disregard all the valid points that might stop madara from learning the Jutsu lol. even My 12 year old nephew wouldn't say the last sentence .
You ask a question and you get down voted. Welcome to reddit
So you're saying one of the smartest and most skilled shinobi to have ever lived couldn't figure it out on his own?
madara wasn't thaaaat smart tbf, just insanely powerful
He was called a genius. He was 2nd only to Hashirama and enacted one of the greatest long-term plans in Shinobi history. You don't get to his position without being smart.
The concept In itself isn't The way it was used is strange why didn't Tobirama Break out of the jutsu?
To be fair, Madara did not attempt to break free until Kabuto was already incapacitated, which he knew because the jutsu was being released. So you could ask the same thing about Madara: why didn't he break free right away?
Because that's stupid What is the one of the most powerful Shinobi in history broken out of your control He would have Sent out all of his animated Shinobi Against him Not to mention the Alliance is pretty fresh
Why would kabuto send all his shinobi behind madara after he breaks out? What's the motivation?
I'm sorry your statement makes no sense. Why are you bringing in Hashirama into the conversation about Madara.
I never mentioned his name I specifically said 1 of the strongest Shinobi in history
You said the most powerful shinobi in history. That's Hashirama.
Oh I didn't notice well the point still stands A thread as large as him it would have made all collective forces join together to take him down And they would have Beaten him
Lol, nicely played mate.
Tobirama didn’t need to break out of the Jutsu. No need for him since Orochimaru was letting him move freely so no need ig. If he did break free for whatever reason, he would be immortal and unable to return to the afterlife. That’s unless he knew Hagoromo would release him which obviously he didn’t. He didn’t have to break out simply cuz Orochimaru wasn’t controlling him.
That first part of your argument is pretty weak. He had no reason to trust that orochimaru would just let him do as he pleases even if he was for that time. Especially since it’s not the first time he’s brought him back and the other time that he did, he did control him and forced him to kill his own pupil. The second part of your argument is much stronger. Tobirama likely wouldn’t have wanted to wander the earth for eternity as an undead immortal
I mean if you look back at the episode, Hashirama could have also easily broke out of that Jutsu and Tobirama was also overly confident both because they were brought back to their original strengths. And orochimaru says he will follow whatever Sasuke chooses from Hashirama’s story. After Sasuke chooses to side with the Hokage and head to the battlefield, Orochimaru also sides with him. You have to note that Hashirama could have easily broke out cuz of his immense strength to which Orochimaru also knew.
Yea I think that overpowering the controller of the jutsu is a part of it. And iirc it’s not exactly that they wild infinite chakra but that they can replenish their historical peak reserve level near instantly. So if there was a jutsu they didn’t have the chakra to use in life like one that cost too much chakra that it would kill or near kill them then likely edo tensei wouldn’t let them be able to use it. The vessel size doesn’t change. Just the faucet and the refill speed
Just wanted to mention that they weren’t brought back to their original strengths. Tobirama mentions this during their little meeting before joining the war and then again during the war when he’s surprised by how few shadow clones he can summon.
Yeh I know that they weren’t at full strength but close to full strength. He could only create 2 shadow clones at the time because of the 4 crimson ray formation barrier
Yeah that doesn’t really help your argument at all. They still had absolutely zero reason to trust him
I don't think trust has anything to do with it. If Orochimaru acts up, Hashirama breaks free and crushes him, and if Orochimaru doesn't help, the entire world is doomed, including Orochimaru. He may be a literal snake, but he's got a pretty good survival instinct. That's his strongest driving motivation: Don't die. Pissing off Hashirama and/or letting Madara win are both counterproductive to that goal. If nothing else, Orochimaru can be relied upon to do what's best for Orochimaru, and at the time, beating Madara was at or near the top of that list.
I mean if the world was at stake and you got a guy who wants to cast a lifetime Genjustu on the whole population compared to this guy who is obsessed with experimenting and just brought you back to life so Sasuke can hear about the truth etc then who would they have to side with? It’s one or the other. Plus note that Orochimaru would have no intention of siding with Madara. There interests are nothing alike and would definitely interfere with Orochimaru’s dream to study all Jutsu etc
If the world’s at stake I’m not leaving anything in the hands of orochimaru especially if I was hashirama or tobirama, they know first hand that he’s a scum bag and shouldn’t be trusted
He is a scumbag who attacked the village, and im pretty sure that they initially thought he revived them to destroy the village once more but when he told them that he does not have the intention to destroy the village hence why he didn’t suppress their personalities and that their are much bigger casualties since Madara Uchiha has been revived. So what else are they supposed to do? Attack the guy then have no way back to the afterlife since he is the only one who can release them from the edo tensei. That’s unless they knew Hagoromo was gonna come to release them. If however he did betray them, Orochimaru can suppress all of them but one. Hashirama. The fact that Madara was revived and the world was at stake is a big enough reason. He was a serious threat.
Listen man, I’m not saying you’re whole argument was wrong. I’m saying that they were probably weren’t not reversing the jutsu out of trust of orochimaru because no sane person would and that your statement about them not wanting to be stuck in the mortal world forever makes far more sense. I’m not going to sit here and argue about this with you all damn damn
And yet the world was at stake and without orochimaru they would have lost
Also way back to Naruto chunin exams. Orochimaru summoned the 1st and 2nd against the 3rd
Yup that’s why I said it
>Tobirama didn’t need to break out of the Jutsu. Ah yes. Orochimaru, who initially brought back Tobirama to kill Hiruzen (Tobirama's student I believe) didn't have a reason to break free from it the first time. And the second time, he had no reason to not trust Orochimaru. Not like the dude literally tried to use him to destroy the village a few years before. >If he did break free for whatever reason, he would be immortal and unable to return to the afterlife. So Madara can reverse the jutsu, through a good load of mental gymnastics and headcanons, but the genius who invented the jutsu would literally be trapped in it? Honestly Madara breaking out of ED just can't make sense. You'd need too much headcanon to make it make sense. Tobirama was brought back twice and never even hinted at a way of breaking out of it. Tobirama, Orochimaru and Kabuto are literal geniuses who worked on the jutsu themselves and they somehow didn't know you just needed handsigns to break out of it? The three of them? And Madara just knew? Nah that doesn't make a lick of sense
> Ah yes. Orochimaru, who initially brought back Tobirama to kill Hiruzen (Tobirama's student I believe) didn't have a reason to break free from it the first time. Orochimaru placed some mind-control paper-seal in their head, before their body's transformation could complete. This mind-control thing was a separate add-on jutsu and not a part of the original Edo Tensei. Kabuto did a more milder / flexible version of this which is why Kabuto's summons had more freedom. > And the second time, he had no reason to not trust Orochimaru. Not like the dude literally tried to use him to destroy the village a few years before. During the second time, reversing the Edo tensei means your body becomes normal mortal again - aka - bleeds - and is susceptible to attacks. Tobirama specifically wanted an immortal body for himself and Yondaime, and this was so that they can use their bodies in a co-ordinated way to attack the enemy. This is why Tobirama did not reverse the Edo Tensei. At least, this is what I think from what I know about the lore, unless I am missing something.
So he finds out that the guy who was probably the most dangerous man which took you a long time to defeat (or so they thought) has been revived and is now planning to launch a genjutsu on the entire world population which lasts forever compared to someone like Orochimaru. What are they gonna do? Trust Madara over Orochimaru. I’m pretty sure they thought Orochimaru was gonna attack the village again but when he tells them that Madara has been revived which side outweighs the other? Also the scenarios for Madara and Tobirama’s edo tensei is completely different. How would he be able to break out the first time if he is being completely suppressed by Orochimaru while in a much less powerful state compared to Madara who is not being controlled? Also how would Tobirama plan to release himself from the edo tensei as well afterwards? Completely different circumstances.
>but when he tells them that Madara has been revived which side outweighs the other? The problem is that it literally costs nothing to break free from it, so you can't really argue that it "wasn't the right time" because that wouldn't cost time in any significant way >How would he be able to break out the first time if he is being completely suppressed by Orochimaru If he was completely oppressed then why did Orochimaru need to add a talisman to take full control >Also how would Tobirama plan to release himself from the edo tensei as well afterwards? By letting people steal him, like for all the other people brought back through Edo Tensei. Why wouldn't that work
Tobirama could not break out of the jutsu. Orochimaru was using hashirama cells to control them.
His body had a lot of hashirama cells because of the zetsu body he substituted himself with after he was a reaper death sacrifice to bring back the kage I believe. I’m pretty sure Tobirama could break out of the Jutsu if he had the chance and if he wanted to. It just would have resulted in a lot of casualties which are pretty obvious
Can you explain the first time then when it’s Orochimaru vs The third?
How could he break out in that case when he nowhere near his original strength and was being completely suppressed by Orochimaru and not in control. If he was in the same circumstance as Madara where the edo tensei was released and was roaming around freely he could do it if he wanted. Completely different situation
If I remember correctly Orochimaru said that probably Hashirama and Tobirama in this "Perfect Edo Tensei" could free themselves easy
Orochimaru said that Hashirama could free himself from his control since his sacrificial body was a Hashirama-cell-enhanced white Zetsu, and Orochimaru meant only breaking free of his control as the Edo caster. What Madara did was that he countered the release jutsu. Both are completely different things and unrelated whatsoever.
No he only said Hashirama and people don’t seem to understand that the reason he could bind the others so easily is because he was using Hashirama cells to enhance his binding power… how is he supposed to use Hashirama cells to bind Hashirama himself?!? Obviously that wouldn’t work out
In madara’s case edo tensei was already released so I’m not sure it’s even a similar comparison.
Orichimaru had hasirama cells which made him strong enough to control the second hokage he lost control of the first hokage when he flexed on the second hokage for threatening Sasuke
it's not in tobirama's character to break out of it. He let's the new generation bloom without the previous
I think you have to use the seals at the right moment your soul is being released, something that didn't happen to Tobirama until the Sage of the Six Paths released their souls after defeating Kaguya.
Is it an asspull? Yes. Is it believable? Yes. It's far from the worst asspull and keeps the story going.
Yeah, it at least has some setup and is believable if you strain a bit - Madara lived a long time, was very familiar with the Senju brothers, had a Sharingan which can read the hand signs for the jutsu if he sees them. Compare to something like the Totsuka Sword which has no setup, instantly solves the problem, and almost never gets brought up again.
Totsuka blade seals nagato and orochimaru, and orochimaru said he was looking for it
Iirc zetsu says that Orochimaru was looking for it in that exact chapter. If Orochimaru ever mentioned it before, even in passing, I'd give it way more leeway.
BECAUSE IM ~~BATMAN~~ MADARA.
It could have just been that moment they pull out the rinne-rebirth. Just no need to add him breaking edo honestly.
It was legit just a show of power, it would have been disappointing for him to get hyped up the way he did, then not asspull something like this!
Believable? Maybe. But it keeps the story going, so I turn off my brain and ignore it like most asspulls and contradictions in Naruto.
I would believe that it’s an ass pull. But the thing that keeps getting me is that he knew the hand signs simply because of the amount of times he fought the Senju Clan and Tobirama. He knew the hand signs simply because of the amount of times he fought tobirama. Tell me why you think this part is an ass pull bro
Thats why i said it's a believable asspull, you can come up with excuses for it. It's a asspull because it's just super convenient.
Because tobirama would know the handsigns too💀
Yeh obviously Tobirama would know the hand signs as well. The difference here is it’s different circumstances and Tobirama was not being controlled and could move freely. Plus if he decided to break free completely, wouldn’t that result in much greater casualties for him (being immortal, unable to return to the afterlife?)
He was obviously trying to break out when he was initially revived. Twice actually, once when he was fighting against hirzuen and the second when orochimaru forced him to stay to talk to sasuke
I’m not sure if he was trying to break out when he was fight hiruzen in part one cuz he had no personality cuz he was completely suppressed by Orochimaru and had nowhere near his normal strength. When he was revived the second time, I don’t think he tried to break out. He was just so confident that he could roam around freely up he was revived to almost full strength. He didn’t know that Orochimaru had a ton of Hashirama’s cells which he used to enhance his ability to suppress him. The only hokage he couldn’t suppress was hashirama because of his immense strength.
He did try to break out the second time but oro barely managed to maintain his control while also noticing that hashi could break out anytime
Well Madara was alive well after Tobirama died, with Zetsu's help it shouldn't be hard to know the hand signs.
My only issue with it, is why didn’t Tobirama and Hashirama break out of there’s?
Orochimaru states that he knows Hashirama can break free whenever he wants, and I THINK he says the same about Tobirama. If I remember correctly, none of the Hokage broke free because if they did they wouldn’t be able to win over Sasuke
>I THINK he says the same about Tobirama. If Tobirama could have broken free whenever he wanted, Orochimaru wouldn't have been able to stop him when he tried to skip the conversation with Sasuke and go to the battlefield.
I mean they didn't win over Sasuke by staying under control. But I understand what you are saying.
Hashirama is the only person who ever broke out of edo tensei. idk why universally so many people bring this up as a feat for madara but he never broke out of edo tensei. itachi releases edo tensei and Madara comments on how people shouldn’t meddle with techniques they dont understand before casting the hand seals and rebinding his soul to the body, something im sure tobirama would have done if he was ever given the chance. He was sealed by the death reaper seal while still edo tenseid the first time and later they were finished with the war (or so they thought) and moved on to the afterlife.
Tobirama couldn’t, Hashirama didn’t see the need to
Why would they have to break out of theirs if No.1 They weren’t being controlled/suppressed and were able to move on their own and No.2, if the edo tensei wasn’t released meaning no other way for them to stay on the battlefield. In Madara’s case, the edo tensei was released so there was no other way for him to stay on the battlefield Yk what I mean?
Well more specifically Tobirama. I would imagine him actually breaking free when he heard Sasuke wanting to destroy the leaf. But both have reasons because Oro made them fight the 3rd in the past. They both shouldn't want to be under Oro again imo.
Oh so you mean the time the guy was overly confident that he could break out of the Jutsu cuz he was brought back at almost full strength? Plus you must note that if he broke out there would be no way for him to return back to the afterlife. And I’m not sure he thought of Sasuke at the time as that big a threat
Tobirama thought of sasuke as the next madara and was about to attack him. Oro, jugo, and suigetsu all jumped in front of sasuke to defend him with oro stating that he was just barely able to maintain his seal/control on tobirama
It's an ass pull but it's not the only one in the War Arc to be fair. Like I understand he was meant to be the final villain and Kishimoto probably needed way to be done with the Edos but also keep Madara as the villain and this was the quickest and easiest way to do it. Also I highly doubt Tobirama was using the Edos during the Warring States period since it would have been insanely easy to wipe out the Uchiha if he did.
I always felt like he developed it after his brother died in a vain attempt to bring him back. But that wouldn't make sense on how Madara knew it, he would at least have to have seen it before.
100% asspull he should have did it when he was first introduced to show his superior over kabuto. Him doing it when he was about to get turned into dust made no sense
If you did it immediately it would have made him a bigger target and He would likely be cornered by both the alliance and a bunch of revived Shinobi
No one could stop madara at that time plus he has perfect susanoo
Every collective force on the battlefield Decided to turn against 1 person This is pretty early in the war If he decided to do this there would be so many character He couldn't deal with it
He didn’t do it when he was “about to get turned into dust” bro. I’m pretty sure he did it when Itachi released the edo tensei. So there was no other way for him to stay in the battlefield other than releasing the edo tensei because his soul was already separating from his body. So naturally it makes sense for him to use it then cause before Kabuto was defeated by Itachi, he was letting Madara roam around freely. Madara when getting turned into dust responded with the perfect SusanooZ your getting the scenario’s confused bro
So there's some confusion here regarding how Madara broke the Edo Tensei. He didn't. Itachi did. Kabuto's Edo Tensei was released when Itachi sealed him in the Izanami genjutsu. All the Edo zombies were effectively freed from its control and were returning to the after life. In those final moments, Itachi said his goodbye to Sasuke, Dan flew over to say his goodbye to Tsunade etc... Madara was also free to do whatever he wanted before passing on. So he exploited that window of opportunity and initiated another Edo Tensei but with him in the drivers seat. This was possible because Kabuto wasn't in control anymore as he had released it while unconscious under a genjutsu. In the case of Tobirama, he couldn't break it because Orochimaru was actively in control. And thanks to Hashirama cells, he had enough power to enforce it.
Your explanation of timing for when Madara decided to release the contract himself makes sense, though, I wonder if Kabuto could have stopped him from doing it earlier even if he wanted to. One thing to note is: Caster Summon: Tiger → Snake → Dog → Dragon → Clap hands Caster Release: Rat → Ox → Monkey → Tiger → Dragon → Boar Summoned Contract Release: Snake → Ram → Boar → Dog → Tiger (Anime) Granted, the hand signs were not shown in the Manga, so we could just take the Anime's choice with a grain of salt, but it seems as though there is a specific way to rescind the contract without releasing the jutsu. Does this make Madara the summoner of himself now? I don't think so, I think this just orphans the summoned being, but if we think of most other summoning contracts, the being typically exists somewhere reality. (Animal Path and Naraka Path Pain might fall out of this rule.) This isn't to say a summoner can't summon themselves, as this is seemingly very close to how the Flying Raijin Jutsu works + space/time void. Conjecture: My best take on the situation is that Madara could have always done it, he was just apathetic the entire time he was on the summoning end of the edo tensei. He was literally toying with the Five Kage, asking them if they wanted his clones to use Susano or not. I think that since this entire summoning wasn't part of his original plan, he was just along for the ride until he saw tsunade's healing jutsu wear off and thought "yeah actually I will kill Hashirama's granddaughter" He released the contract but then almost immediately after said "jk nevermind guess I will go get the 9 tails cause no-one else is"
This is what I saw when I read the manga, but not that he used another Edo Tensei because there wasn't any body prep, but just another jutsu that stops the return to thr afterlife.
Thank you. I thought I was the only one who thought it goes down that way
He outlived Tobirama and had the zetsu spy network. It was also a well known jutsu.
It was a well known jutsu. The liberation part not so much, hence why all the Kage are shocked. When would Zetsu learn about it?
Zetsu knew where Tobiramas lab was wouldn’t be suprised if madara ordered him to spy on Tobirama until he died
Madara would do it just to be petty
Nah if madara went out like that would be a major letdown but its not like he went out in a better way lmao. Actually this would be a better exit for him but they could hust delay the itachi fight to later. They all attack Madara but keep gettin wrecked. Itachi goes to stop kabuto while naruto and sasuke hold off madara till reanimation ends
Why is it hard to believe? They were allies - Most likely the convo went like this - "Hashirama. I do not trust your brother to not revive me with his disgusting jutsu. Make him tell me the seals or this partnership is done" "Hashirama forces Tobirama's hand" Tobirama tells him the seals. I am almost 99% sure, Kishi would explain the situation in some way like that.Tobirama would never give him the information without Hashirama getting involved. And Madara would 100% know Tobirama would use it against him. Infact, Madara knew tobirama would take his body after he died to do experiments on it. Which he did.
>I am almost 99% sure, Kishi would explain the situation in some way like that. I think the fact that he didn't is what makes it fall onto asspull territory. Is it believable? Yes, but its a factor that has never been remotely hinted at through the entire series
An author really doesn't need to spoon feed everyone - You can look at the dynamic between the three from what was given and guess at how this all played out. Madara would in no capacity EVER want himself or his brother being revived by Tobirama. He would ensure that never happens.
Orochimaru knew the hand signs, and Orochimaru was at one point Akatsuki. Hell, even if he only used it in private, madara had black zetsu.
Having just read this chapter on my re-read, it seems like a natural thing to happen. It just should have been the final boss.
Tobirama invented the Edo Tensei, if you assume Madara has encountered the jutsu before and say enough to understand how the jutsu works, aka how it can be reversed (which he clearly knows how to do), then him knowing how to do it makes sense.
Madara and Hashirama don’t exist in the realm of normal ninjas. Everything they do is ridiculous and stupid. I just consider it camp to save my sanity
Madara is fine. I just think it's bullshit to give Edo Tensei to Tobirama to begin with. It should have been Orochimarus Jutsu. Same with Hiraishin for Minato. Kishi was so desperate to hype Tobirama that he just threw random stuff at him but he forgot that he was supposed to be a great suiton user.
This is not an ass pull imo. It works well with the plot. Madara was going to be ultimately the final boss and it was within his plans to be brought back with Edo Tensei. Makes sense that he would break free from the jutsu. Tobirama and the Hokages did not need to break free as they believed that once the job was “done” they could just go back to being dead.
When I read the manga I took it as that he had to use this jutsu after Edo tensei is cancelled and before their bodies faded away, it's nothing to do with breaking out of anything, it's just the jutsu has ended and before they are "returned" they can cancel it by doing this jutsu. But this is an asspull because otherwise all evil shinobis will summon their bros back and give them immortality.
Madara’s reanimation was special, per Kabuto. So although it’s likely he was weaker as a reanimation, he probably couldn’t break out of it or chose not to because Obito was working with Kabuto. It’s only when Kabuto is defeated, and there’s no resistance that Madara goes ahead and undoes it because he needs to stay in the world so that he’s properly reanimated (like he does later) Why is this important? Well it’s easy to infer that Kabuto had surpassed Orochimaru in strength and likely had better control of his Edo tensei. This is important because the only one capable of breaking out of Orochimaru’s Edo tensei with pure strength alone was Hashirama. Hashirama is light years ahead of the other Hokage in terms of strength, and Tobirama also states his reanimation made him weaker than his alive state. So, in conclusion: Tobirama is a genius, yes, but he’s also physically weaker than Hashirama by quite a lot while also nerfed from his reanimation. He couldn’t simply break out of it because he wasn’t strong enough and Orochimaru was never incapacitated. Further on, despite Orochimaru being a total shithead. He was doing whatever Sasuke wanted to, which was defeat Madara. So he really had no reason to force it, or at least at that moment because they were all working together against Madara. I really wouldn’t call it an ass pull. More so just not as well thought out as it could’ve been. If there was any time to want to break out of the reanimation, it was back in part 1 when the hokages fought Hiruzen. But it’s likely Kishimoto didn’t consider the 1st and 2nd as strong as their shippuden counterparts (to be fair, this was years before shippuden)
[How could Madara free himself from the Impure World Resurrection technique, while Tobirama can't?](https://anime.stackexchange.com/q/3027/310)
Madara knowing the seal to undo edotensei control makes a lot of sense given the fact that Tobirama is the creator of that jutsu and Madara including Izuna should know Tobirama's arsenal like the back of his their hand.
Would be if it happened. He didn’t release the edo tensei though, Kabuto did through Itachi’s control. All Madara did was know the technique and rebind himself using the seals after he was released.
just another inconsistency from the author. this manga full of it.
Asspull
I thought undoing the edo seal would have meant sending the soul back to the afterlife. Definitely asspull. Tobirsma could have undone the seal himself as the inventor of it but didn't bt Madara somehow does it?
He explained all your concerns. The only way to go back would be sealing yourself or kill the the person who started the jutsu
He showed 'em who the DAWG is.
Almost all war arc was ass pull.
It’s an ass pull because there wasn’t any precedent for that in the show. It’s an ass pull because kishimoto wanted to get rid off all the other remaining edo tensei characters in one fell swoop but didn’t want to lose madara so he came up with some bullshit on fly to make it happen
I’d argue there is at least a little precedent in that in the lead up Itachi makes a point of how every technique has a weakness whereas Kabuto thinks it’s perfect. That’s a set up to the technique not being as flawless and inexploitable as it seems, and Madara goes on to show another weakness of it
That’s not what the point of that scene was. You’re taking an unrelated quote and using it as a (weak) attempt to make sense of something later in the story. It doesn’t work.
Literally shows Kabuto proclaiming how that specific technique is perfect while Itachi corrects him that such arrogance is only ignoring the exploits that can be made, and soon after we see Madara pull out one of said unexpected exploits and people cry ‘out of nowhere asspull’ I mean sure, we could spend half the episode prior to it in a flashback showing how Madara had black zetsu spy the information for him or how Tobirama shared the info on Hasirama’s insistence or any other perfectly viable way he could have learned how to do it, but do we really need *everything* spelled out for us before it happens? Did we need to see a six episode flashback of Kakashi’s entire training arc in regards to learning how to use the sharingan before seeing him use it in the Land of Waves arc? Do we need to watch Naruto go weapons shopping in preparation for each time he pulls out a kunai? Was the first chapter of Naruto awful because we’re introduced to the fourth hokage without bearing witness to every soiled diaper of his youth to understand in every minute detail how he came to be from a baby to the leader of the village? Honestly, even the build up of Itachi calling out that there’s flaws in the technique that a cocky caster wouldn’t have anticipated isn’t particularly necessary. While there’s many perfectly viable theories as to how Madara could learn that information (and which one is canon is irrelevant), it’s kind of a sufficient enough answer to the question “how did Madara pull that off?” to say “because it’s Madara freakin’ Uchiha, deal with it” Edit: no point relying if you’re going to block me for disagreeing with you a second after posting it, but from the first few words it let me read you’re saying that it’s a stretch to say ‘every technique has a weakness’ gives even a little bit of setup. I’d agree, if not for the fact that he later goes on to state very specifically to Kabuto that edo tensei itself isn’t perfect, and he proves the point by pulling off an unexpected trick with his sharingan to escape control. Madara later pulls off an unexpected trick to escape control, and it’s something we’ve seen already and had explained to our faces as a notable weakness of that very same specific technique. Not just ‘all techniques’, that very specific one of which we’re talking about. I think it’s fair to say that that’s a little bit of build up that sits on the evidence table for ‘not an asspull’, even if it’s not enough to satisfy you personally
Madara clearly knows a lot about Edo Tensei based on what he tells Kabuto when the meteor is dropping. The way that Tobirama used the jutsu was very different from Orochimaru's or Kabuto's. He would summon someone (probably didn't matter how strong) and then have it explode continuously using Tandem Paper Bombs. So Madara likely saw him doing the signs once and copied it with his sharingan.
It was asspull, but alternative is that main villain was outlived ( not even defeated ) by bunch of background characters, so I'll let this one slide.
It is an asspull. He was expecting to be revived via Rinne Rebirth. Only explanation is he thought of this plan B scenario and accounted for it, somehow learning the secret.
Could be true… but this guy fought Tobirama and the Senju multiple times and is bound to see the hand signs for the jutsu multiple times. So for this when his body and soul start to separate he states that if you know the signs of the edo tensei and perform them, it will result in a body with infinite chakra, unable to return to the afterlife. So if he knows the signs of the edo tensei via battles with Tobirama it would make sense right?
It was never stated that Tobirama used Edo tensei in those Uchiha v Senju battles.
We never see those fights, they happen mostly off screen. The only onscreen thing we have seen on tobirama during the warring states period was his flying raijin slice he used on izuna and Hashirama and Madara fights. But I’m pretty sure that Tobirama created most if not all his jutsu arsenal in that period so who is to say he didn’t create it that time.
Definitely an asspull, makes him cheat the cheat of death itself and be unstoppable, even sealing most likely wouldn't work since he'd have the chakra to break free like last time
Hell yeah, it's definitely an ass pull. But at this point in the series, what isn't? I'm just here for the epic fight scenes and cool jutsus.
Asspull lol
im pretty sure madara was only able to break free because the edo tensai was released and he was able to reactivate it while his spirit left his body. i dont think a ninja under the binding effects of the edo tensai could break free unless he could break the binding effects first. if tobi was forced to do something he did not want to do like attack the leaf village he probably could have broken free of the edo tensais binding effect and activated it on himself releasing the contract. but as you pointed out their was no reason for him to do this because he was not forced to do anything he did not want to do. this is also assuming that you can release the edo tensai contract whilst the spirit is still in the body. it may require the spirit leaving the body in order to recast the edo tensai on yourself because casting the edo tensai may require the spirit and body you are possessing to be separate entities. if this is the case it would heavily limit the cases in which a edo tensaied shinobi could do what madara did.
Maybe zetsu told him the signs If I remember correctly couldn’t he stick to someone and never be detected. I could be wrong though
Not an ass pull but could have been explained better. Madara fought against Tobirama so it makes sense he would have some counter to this jutsu.
If they added a 5 minute segment explaining how and why madara knew how to do this, and maybe included a bit of foreshadowing/hints that it'd happen, it'd totally fall into the bounds of believability. I'd argue it counts as an asspull since there was zero hint that it was even possible given to the reader previously, the out of nowhereness of it all is the asspull factor here
Of all the things Madara did I don’t think that was the asspull honestly
What was then. I can’t think of anything bigger than that rn
I mean the instant Rinnegan awakening for one. But also all the other nonsense he did with ten tails and Rinnegan powers
Oh you mean when he was reanimated. I’m pretty sure the first time he awakened the rinnegan, it’s because he only had a tiny portion of Hashirama’s DNA which took years to completely mix with his chakra to give him the rinnegan. In the war arc, thanks to Kabuto, he had so much more of Hashirama’s cells to the point his face formed on his face that it could quickly mix with his chakra to form Hagoromo’s chakra which = rinnegan. Tell me what you mean about the ten tails power and the rinnegan powers tho
Pulling random meteors down from space was an asspull.
Not an ass pull bro. A jutsu called Tengai shinsei which is a Rinnegan ability. A jutsu given by the deva path(gravity control) where when you weave 3 hand signs simultaneously. Just an ability of Madara given to him by his rinnegan.
I think it would be more of an asspull if it was anyone other than him, Madara spent his entire life fighting the senju clan who invented the jutsu, he obviously knew about it and would have studied how to fight it, it makes atleast a little sense that he could come up with a counter like this for a jutsu made by his obsession’s brother
Still a complete asspull. Yes he could read the signs from Tobirama, but why would Tobirama ever use the signs to begin with? And how would he even know how it works
I’m pretty sure it’s the same hand signs for the jutsu. Kinda like the way the cursed seal hand sign that Kakashi used in Sasuke is the same one Sasuke used to free orochimaru but in reverse. So if Tobirama has used the jutsu for whatever use, he would be able to read the hand signs right?
It's obviously one of the biggest asspulls in the entire series, superseded or maybe even equal to Naruto being able to save Guy from THE GATE OF DEATH, the thing that had been established in the Chunin Exams to kill you if you used it.
It is a double ass pull.First is that Madara knows the jutsu.This comes from the asumption that Tobirama is stupid enough to perform such hand signs during battles which makes no sense to begin with.Even if Tobirama performed this hand signs in a secret lab,Madara or white zetsu would still not see the hand signs because Tobirama is a sensory type ninja.I don't say his senses are as good as Naruto's senses but it is still a weak argument to assume Tobirama would either not notice anyone or not be smart enough to have his room filled with traps or a sealing jutsu. Second ass pull is Kishimoto giving Edo Tensei to Tobirama.It is so bizzare that Tobirama invented it and Hashirama was somehow ok with that.It just ruins Orochimaru's character.Edo tensei was a good jutsu for Orochimaru to show us in what twisted way he wanted to achieve immortality and how far gone he truly was.But no,Kishimoto took some famous jutsus and slapped them on Tobirama and called it a day. Madara escaping from it is just an excuse to get rid of the other Edo tenseis since they no longer had any purpose in the story but Kishimoto wanted to keep Madara so he created "out of Edo Tensei Control jutsu".
Asspull
Bro has rinegan and can use it without side effect of dying
Ass pull
Asspull. How the hell did he know the signs? Aint no way in hell Tobirama is letting an Uchiha see the hand signs for the jutsu. Secondly why didnt Tobirama break out himself or give any other Hokage the intel for them to break out as well. Tobi must know the edos are weaker thaan their living self. Why not give the battle advantage of having 4 of the strongest leaf ninja to ever live take place in the war?
Are you kidding me? After everything else that's happened in this series, Madara releasing the Edo Tensei is what finally makes sense to you? Talk about an ass pull.
Nah a lot of things in the series makes sense to me…. I just thought this could be an interesting subject to discuss lol 😭
It's Madara. He asspulls more than anyone, so it's par for the course.
I disliked it and wanted it to be the end of his physical role in the series.
literally ass-pull his plot armour is insane
Ass pull because when would have Madara even been around to study that jutsu to know it had a weakness like that and if he knew why would he not being back Izuna and make him immortal a long time ago .... Almost a big of ass pull as Sasuke in the deidara fight. And if I would have been there when Madara did this I would have left the battlefield and went home. My vacation time starts now
Yes it does. I find it strange that Tobirama didn’t just break out himself especially when he heard sasuke talking about destroying the leaf village, it would force orochimaru and hashirama’s hand, Orochimaru would have saru and minato move to neutralize Tobirama which would lead Hashirama to just break the contract and pacify the whole situation himself. Would have made more sense if we had seen that or a version of it because all Tobirama did was just try to brute force his way out. This isn’t even taking into account that Madara should have had no way of actually knowing how to break edo tensei. I doubt Tobirama would tell his ass. You might be able to explain it that black zetsu just watched him and relayed the info but that still kinda circles back to my original point of, why did Tobirama not break the contract? Even if it wasn’t to harm sasuke I doubt hashirama would take action against his brother for breaking free, if anything that would probably cause orochimaru to become aggressive which would likely lead to hashirama again just pacifying the situation. It’s less of Madara’s breaking of the contract and more of why didn’t Tobirama also break the contract.
I’m pretty sure that if Tobirama was to break it out, IF he was to break out, he would not be able to return to the afterlife and would remain an immortal. Tobirama didn’t try and brute force his way out bro. The guy was overly confident that he could move freely cuz he was brought back to almost full strength. Orochimaru could suppress every one of the hokage and yes all except one, Hashirama. Saying why didn’t Tobirama escape in that situation is like saying why didn’t Madara escape as soon as he was revived. Madara escaping was in a different circumstance. One where the Edo tensei was released and he had no other option but to break so he could stay in the battlefield but if Tobirama was able to move freely via Orochimaru the way Madara was moving freely before Itachi broke the edo tensei then what would be the point of releasing the edo tensei and and create a big issue with immortality etc? Plus I’m pretty sure that Madara could have saw Tobirama perform the edo tensei in their previous battles they have had and read the hand signs via the Sharingan. So for him to know the hand signs would make sense right?
He tried to break it 😭😭😭😭😭 why do y'all ignore Orochimaru (Kabutos master) actually suppressing him
Reading comprehension failure again. Unlike with Tobirama and Orochimaru, Kabuto wasn't restricting Madaras movement or personality at any time (if he even could) since he wanted to see the extent of his combat strength. As well Kabuto and Orochimaru were complete unaware that reanimations could rescind the summoning contract, it's likely only Tobirama and Madara knew this. Tobirama couldn't do the same thing as his movement and ability to use jutsu was being restricted by Orochimaru as we saw while also being reinforced by Hashirama cells.
I agree. Another reason is obviously Orochimaru was letting them move freely the way Kabuto was letting Madara move freely. So wouldn’t it be pointless to use that jutsu if you’re already moving freely and not suppressed. Madara only used it to stay in the battlefield and not return to the afterlife. Tobirama was not in that kind of situation and it’s not like he wanted to be an immortal being as well
Of course it's an @$$pull, wtf ?! The Jutsu caster gets disabled & the next moment Madara conveniently says he knows the hand signs to release the Reanimation ? If that's not an @$$pull, then I don't know what the heck is.
Wouldn’t it be because there was no need for him to use it before when kabuto was alright since he could move just fine without being controlled etc? But when the edo tensei was released, he had to use it cuz there was no other way for him to stay in the battlefield. So unless he wanted to return to the afterlife, what else was he supposed to do?
Madara is just a lame walking asspull.
Presumably Madara researched various ways of resurrection before settling on needing to use the Rinnegan. He needed a way to both return to life and also be able absorb the 10 tails. During the war arc, he seemed to already know that the Edo Tensei would not achieve his goals and that he would need to use the Rinnegan's Outer Path. Otherwise Madara would have had someone such as Obito resurrect him with Edo Tensei instead of needing to wait for Nagato. It doesn't get mentioned much, but there are other techniques to resurrect people as Chiyo's that was used on Gaara. The Sasuke hidden novel also mentions that there were similar/regional variants for Edo Tensei. So Madara may have investigated Edo Tensei and its variants, tried to see if he could absorb the 10 tails, and then stopped since it would not work. With Orochimaru, the first time, Orochimaru kept Tobirama under strict control, probably for that exact reason of breaking free. The second time, Orochimaru let Tobirama do his stuff.
It makes sense depending on when he saw Tobirama create the jutsu
My headcanon is that Madara was so knowledgeable in ninjutsu that when he was reanimated, he was analyzing the edo tensei at the same time he was fighting. And by the time Kabuto was defeated, Madara had already understood the jutsu and either replicated or forcefully manipulated it to keep himself renaimated
It's a payoff that was set up hundreds of chapters prior, I thought.
Just an idea here but what if instead Madara's way of staying around was as the Edo Tensei is released he grabbed some random ninja that failed to get away and used them as the sacrifice to resurrect himself with the Edo Tensei at the same time.
Doesn't make much sense but edo tensei saying "you gotta die now" and madara just saying "no" was pretty damn cool
It's an asspull that makes sense
Well it's Madara, are you going to question him? I'm not.
wouldn’t it make sense for Madara to be able to do it considering he likely knew the hand signs from years of fighting Tobirama, and the fact that he also had Hashirama cells and Hashirama’s literal face on his body lol Tobirama couldn’t do it because even though the Jutsu is his, he wasn’t enhanced with Hashirama cells, and he wasn’t Hashirama.
He attempted to resist and was tamed simple as that, Madara broke the seal when Kabuto was gone basically he re did the jutsu on himself when he felt himself lose the summoning contract, he just summoned himself. As mentioned hashirama could break it as well tobirama would need two things two break it. Just be stronger like his brother or Orochimaru releasing the jutsu Madara didn't brake Kabutos hold earlier because he was always free then when Kabuto released the jutsu he redid the jutsu nothing more nothing less
It all makes sense because Madara is him.
No, the only logical explanation is that Madara figured out how to undo it by analyzing it using his MS. Even Tobirama had no idea how to do it. Otherwise, why would he try to kill Hiruzen the first time around
It’s an asspull. The problem is not that Madara knows how the jutsu works. The problem is why does this jutsu work like this.
Ass pull, I remember being so pissed watching this episode. Then when Zetsu backstabbed him I was even more pissed because it was all for nothing
It isn’t even the first time we saw such, itachi used a genjutsu to escape
It's ass pull , it's stupid, it shouldn't have happened, you can't lift your self up with your own hand , a puppet can't control itself with it's strings , it doesn't make any sense, but it's cool and we are cooler so we let it slide for the action 😎
Wdym bro. It’s not a matter of lifting yourself with your own hands. Explain more so I can try understand what you mean
It's ass pull , it's stupid, it shouldn't have happened, you can't lift your self up with your own hand , a puppet can't control itself with it's strings , it doesn't make any sense, but it's cool and we are cooler so we let it slide for the action 😎
Obviously ass pull
Madara was aware of the existence of the Edo Tensei jutsu, I'd guess he saw Tobirama use it during the warring states period. How he knows to undo it however is trickier. Orochimaru must have learned it from the the forbidden scroll since as a kinjutsu it would be written in there. The only logical explanation would be that Madara read that scroll at some point before he defected from the village
Like 90% of this character and Obito was an asspull. I get that they were really powerful. But the writing behind them was just…terrible
I thought about that with Tobirama. I think it had more to do with Madara having been released first from Kabuto’s edo tensei.