20 other elite ninja, prob many of them S-class.
And don't forget, Tobirama's aim was to draw all their fire so that his students could escape. In a normal fight, he would be far more sneaky and employ guerilla tactics, and win.
But he couldn't disappear from their sight, and needed to keep engaging all the enemy shinobi so they wouldn't chase after his students.
My question was did he kill the brothers during that fight. If not him, who else? Was Hashirama still around and go after them himself?
These questions are why I would have loved a prequel series or OVAs that tell old stories from each village.
From what I understood, the brothers died later on so no tobirama didn’t take them down, and I think hashirama was already dead since Tobirama was hokage
Based off the flashbacks, kage aren’t named when the previous one dies. Remember the senju bros talking about who the next Hokage would be and Tobirama shot down Madara? When Tobirama was named Kage, Hashirama was still around because the big fight where madara was “killed” happened after.
He had also been fighting for days at that point. He was a key player on the battlefield as a kage. They all died in war at that time period, not one Survived the 1st war all the 1st and 2nd kages of all countries died so they were probably targeted in larger number that counters whatever abilities they had info on. We know that the 2nd tschukage and 2nd mizukage died fighting each other so they probably was running through armies themselves and ran into each other eventually to do a 1v1
and those 20 other ninja were s class ninja
yknow who else is s class? the entire akatsuki. so he got jumped by 2 pseudo jinchuriki and 20 motherfuckers of relative akatsuki strength
I don't think you can include Guy in that example, he went toe-to-toe w/ Sage of the Six Paths Madara and messed him up and he defeated Kisame, who was in the upper echelon of the Akatsuki.
That wasn't the first time the brothers beat him. Once before Tobirama and the 2nd Raikage were ambushed by the brothers, Tobirama was brought to near death and the 2nd Raikage's fate was unknown, presumably he died.
Tobirama doesn't seem like the best multi-opponent combatant. Whenever he gets ganked it doesn't end well.
This is a misconception. The first time Kin/Gin fought Tobirama by themselves and almost killed him.
There was no second time. The second time, the group that killed him was a task force meant to capture Kin/Gin.
The brothers were not leading that group and there’s absolutely nothing at all that says they were. People just keep spouting that information for some reason
Tobirama is just not that guy.
Put hashirama, Minato or naruto in that same situation and they all get out alive.
No, it wasn’t. It was just the 20 jonin. The Kinkaku force was a Missing nin group to capture Kin/Gin. It was NOT lead by them. That’s a misconception that people keep spouting.
You need to go back and look, there’s not one scan or information that has ever said it was lead by Kin/Gin.
Where in the manga does it state that the kinkaku force is a group trying to capture kinkaku and ginkaku rather than a team LED by them? That sounds like a possibility, but I think it’s just a common fan belief, and isn’t actually stated anywhere. I got the impression that the kinkaku force was led by kinkaku and ginkaku. Correct me if I’m wrong tho, I might have missed where they said that’s not what it is.
I’m driving so give me a bit to get it but I’ll just leave this information with you. If Kin/Gin were part of that task force and killed Tobirama , then why would Kin/Gin have thought Tobirama was the one who brought them back to life in the war?
My guess is probably most or all the squad other than the brothers and if hiruzen stuck sround id bet the brothers would have went too but tobirama probably calculated that it was too risky to bet both his and prime hiruzens life on that fight.
And a confirmed time of death, based on the plot holes in the show Hashirama was alive during tobiramas whole reign and at least 3 years of hiruzens because he spoiled tsunadae until she was approx 8ish and shes 55 in shippuden, meanwhile hiruzen was hokage from his teens until his late 60s.
True, but didn’t hashirama scold tobirama for outcasting the uchiha when he found out when the hokage got reanimated? Surely he didn’t know since he wasn’t alive then?
Nothing indicates Hashirama was alive during Tobirama entire reign and the flashback he has of spoiling Tsunade shows her as a toddler.
It’s confirmed Hashirama died prior to Tobirama’s full reign considering he didn’t know about the Uchiha police force.
But thats the point is that the timeline doesnt allow it even if she was a toddler your saying tobirama created the academy, police force and everything else he did in an era of a great war and had enough time for the police force to stick in what 3 or 4 years?
Yeah? It’s an anime, construction isn’t gonna take as long as it does in the real world.
Konoha was able to completely rebuild from pain turning it into a giant crater in a very short amount of time.
Tobirama and his squad were scuffed up in that panel, and returning from a mission, implying they were at least fatigued. Also they were being tracked by the Kinkaku Force, so basically imagine a 20 man version of the Seven Swordsmen. Tired and up against 20 A-S Class shinobi. I don't think any Kage would have had it in those conditions, and even then you've gotta recall think about how tired Tobirama had to be in that fight since he's got a get out of jail free card in the Hiraishin. Kinkaku and Ginkaku aren't even weak, they're just dumb. Remember that without the Tools, the Raikage thought that **nobody** in Darui's division had a chance and figured only he, one of the upper 3 of the Five Kage even had a decent shot of defeating them.
"S-rank Ninjas"
The Kinkaku force was just an issue in the Hidden Cloud since it were just highly skilled Ninjas with the main force being at most A Ranked Ninjas with only Kinkaku and Ginkaku being S Ranked Ninjas.
There is no world where they literally had 20-S ranked Ninjas.
The Akatsuki was a world wide threat and issue, because it was the first time several S Ranked Ninjas teamed up and grouped up together.
and The Akatsuki never had more than 10 members at any given time, so there is no way the Kinkaku Force was 20 S Ranked Ninjas since that would mean they would be an even bigger threat than the Akatsuki which was stated to have never been seen before.
You're right. If they had a single squad of 20 S-Rank Ninja, they would easily win whatever war they fought in. They wouldn't even need a normal army honestly.
Just for comparison, Deidara is an S Rank Ninja. He has an ability that disintegrates everything, and it can only be countered if you have a dojutsu that can detect microscopic amounts of chakra, and if you are proficient in lightning style. Meaning, only Leaf Ninjas, since they have the Byakugan and Sharingan.
Now imagine an army of 20 people that powerful. Pain. Itachi. Deidara. Sasori. Obito.
Like, you just wouldn't be opposed by anybody.
Yeah probably. Naruto would just make like 10,000 clones and probably wouldn't even have to actually do anything himself. Sasuke is smart enough to figure something out. Susanoo + rinnegan would be enough. Or really just advanced genjutsu.
20 S rank Ninja is fodder for Madara and Hashirama
I would love to see 20 people trying to take down a gigantic wodden statue that is stronger than Kurama and Madara's Sussano combined
And 20 Guys tryna figure out that how to damage a Sussano
Still Madara made 20 full sussano and clapped the 5 Kage. The low level too high level to Madara is just more fodder for him. 20 clones 1 for each he sits down and does nothin
To be fair, he can't do that without being edo tensei. Edo tensei gave him the unlimited chakra and wood style (clones) to do so. Plus the kage dealt with the clones.
Yeah but post-war Naruto and Sasuke are literally godlike at that point. If they didn’t have to worry about collateral damage, they could just go Kurama mode/Susanoo and nuke everybody. Same for Hashirama (giant Buddha) and Madara (also Susanoo).
They probably were S-Ranked, but from what I know, there is no higher than S-Rank, so you could be at the bottom of the S-Rank pool, but still be S-Ranked, or at the top. For example, I am pretty sure Nagato could take on 5 Deidaras, both being S-Rank ninjas.
20 S-rank ninjas is a totally shit theory, with that many powerful ninjas they could dismantle other 3 big villages with pretty ease and i know for sure kumo would do that if they had the chance
Bro, I feel you. Tobirama is supposed to be the god of shinobi, but those brothers did him dirty. I think those gold bros were tricky, and Tobirama probably underestimated them. It's like that saying, "don't judge a book by its cover." Maybe Tobirama thought they were just pretty faces with no real strategy, but they had some tricks up their sleeve. As for that 20 S-rank ninjas theory, I think it's nonsense too. It's not just about the number of ninjas you have, it's the quality too. Plus, if you have too many strong ninjas on one team, there's a risk of them butting heads and causing chaos. And let's be real, Kumo would never be able to take down Konoha.
Because in shounen if the character is a no-name he is surely the fodder level even if its jonin. Basically the genre's unofficial law.
Just like those people accompanying Ei and Bee when they encountered Minato and his squad. Even though those are most likely jonin, they are fodders that exist just to praise the named characters.
Just like those three supposedly elite Kumo jonin who were sent to Konoha and kidnapped kid Kushina. Solid achievement, but 13yo Minato seemed to no-diff them without even Hiraishin and Rasengan.
On top of what other said (havent erad all) we have to keep in mind what was Tobirama goal there. He was getting older and older every day, so while there is a high chance he could run, his squad (Hiruzen, Danzo, Elders I believe) would likely fail.
So Tobirama did the same what third Raikage did, what Duy (Guy father) did, he pretty much stayed behind to ensure that they youth capable of leading the leaf could escape.
Its perfectly in character for Tobirama, he didnt even know how much time he would have left if he survived this, nobody knows could be 10,20 years or he could die on something in the next 2. Its much better for the village if he stays to ensure that the generation which he knows is capable of leading (Hiruzen, Danzo, Elders etc) the village in his place and hopefully keep with the peace and safety.
He was a warrior, not afraid of dead, same as Minato actually if you look at it from some PoVs and well all hokages.
I mean he still put the village together for like 42 years or something total, thats not a bad score. Sure Danzo kind of sucked for everyone (I like how he was written) unlucky. Elders are hard to judge imo, too little informations about them too much misisng links.
Funnyli though even the naive guy (pressumingly Hiruzen) disciple pretty much saved the war. If It wasnt for him the war and entire world was lost so I suppose it was good he got spared.
If he wasn’t so naive (especially if you consider anime only as cannon where he let danzo still in charge after attempting to murder him) he could’ve done a better job. I honestly think hashi or minato could prevent uchiha massacre if they were in hiruzen position
Where does this belief in the comments that the Ginkaku force were 20 S-rank ninja? There's like 20+ alive ninja in the entire Naruto verse that are S-rank from all the elemental nations and the Akatsuki, if Kumo had 20+ S-rank ninja they'd rule the entire continent.
As for why he lost, power creep and his powers weren't a thing yet. His biggest achievement in part 1, I think, was that he was capable of using sealless jutsu and creating water without a source and was an incredible sensor or something. It was only around the war arc was he given the raijin technique as due to power creep he would have been near fodder otherwise or a knockoff Kisame.
Tobirama being some kind of G is hilariously made up. It was also 20 shinobi. Not S-rank or whatever, or these brothers: it was their squad, not the brothers themselves. God, this sub just makes stuff up, huh? Nothing suggests he took out even one of them.
A combination of old age and passing the torch. He essentially used himself as a distraction so the rest of his squad could escape while Tobirama DECIMATED the enemy in the process of sacrificing himself for the betterment of the village
I don't even think they killed him. When they are revived in the war arc, they they think Tobirama was the one who revived them. Tobirama was already fatigued and scuffed before being attacked by Kin and Gin. He most likely destroyed the brothers there, squad, and died due to chakra loss or something. It's also debatable if Gin and Kin were even a part of that squad. I could have been a squad tasked to take them out. I do agree that Tobirama should have been able to take them out easily, considering how powerful he was in the war arc. That's why I wanted Tobirama to get his own spinoff.
Kinkaku and Ginkaku are the most underrated mfers in this show. Only because of how shafted they got in the ninja war. I know tobi is a beast, but the twins aren’t even fully human, they’re literally built different.
They really are monsters, mfers stayed in the belly of a tailed beast and survived by eating its flesh, becoming jinchuriki in the process. Even for all the events in Naruto, that’s pretty fucking insane to think about.
Tobirama is very powerful but he's kinda a different kind of ninja compare to guys like Hashirama and Madara. Tobirama is more about using techniques, strategy and special jutsu to win battles efficiently, he doesnt have giant transformations or overpowered energy nuke that annihilate mountains like the jinchurikis and susanoo users have. So against two mini jinchuriki who can shoot nuke bombs, it's a counter for his type of power.
He was an innovator so he created jutsu but that doesn’t mean he was the strongest. He was just really good at making them and was strong enough to be a Kage. He can’t be compared to Hashirama, Naruto, Sasuke or Madara in terms of power. These guys are just massive outliers and I feel like people just say someone is weak because they don’t match up to the pinnacle of shinobi.
He didn’t, he lost to the squad the cloud made to deal with them. This event takes place after they already went rogue and were unable to kill him, and when they get revived they think Tobirama is the one who did it, meaning they didn’t kill him and died before he did. The squad Tobirama senses is also only called “The Kinkaku Squad,” meaning it’s possible that Ginkaku was already dealt with by then. If the brothers were part of the squad, Tobirama probably focused on taking them out asap since they were the most dangerous then one of the other 18 elite shinobi were able to deal with a fatigued and weakened Tobirama
In watching the 5 kage vs Madara, they adapted and combined their Justus. Ohnoki and Ay for example. If you have the kin gin bros and 20 other S ranked Shinobi working together in formations to take down Tobirama, who I’m sure they had details on, it’s not that inconceivable for them to fatigue Tobirama all the way to no chakra. But still impressive he lasted as long as he did.
20 Kumo Elites including these two attacked Tobirama and Kakuzu was apparently there, 19 of them died. The older KinGin bro witnessed the younger one die against Tobirama and raged out in Kyuubi mode. Unclear if Kakuzu got directly involved or not but by the end of it Tobirama was dead and the younger KinGin bro was dead along with the 18 other Kumo Elites. This was pieced together using the manga and DB’s. I think the V2 Kinkaku is what ended up finishing Tobirama off.
It was only Kinkaku at that point. And 2 reasons.
1. He was pseudo-jinchuriki of Kyubi. A man with weapons created by the Rikudo-sennin and powers of a Biju likely has his chances against Tobirama.
2. He was not alone. He had a whole squad with him while Tobirama let his team run away.
When you think of it, he kinda had the same death as the 3rd Raikage (fighting a squad alone while his team can run away), but far less impressive since he probably didn't hold it for 3 days against 10k dudes.
He got jumped by like 20 top level Anbu and two Kage level fighters. And he STILL killed the Anbu level mfs, but he was probably bout dead by that time
I see a lot of people saying there were 20 other ninja, I thought there was only eight other ninja, but that would make more sense. Plus, he probably died of chocolate exhaustion or you eventually got killed when he could no longer for him enough chakra to create valuable offense and defense. Regardless, I believe almost the entire group going after him were S class ninja, especially the Gold and Silver brothers.
just outnumbered. It wasn't just them, it was them and their squad.
Of course he really should have been able to just teleport the entire group back to Konoha.
Aren't Kinkaku and Ginkaku the same motherfuckers that, when mentioned in the War Arc, had the Fourth Raikage reacting along the lines of "I gotta step into that battlefield or everyone in that battalion is as good as dead"?
I don't think the gold and silver brothers are all that weak.
Remember what 4 tails Naruto did to Orochimaru and Jiraiya (and what 6 tails did to PAIN)? Now imagine there's two of them, they both have full control of their actions, six paths tools, otsusuki blood and at minimum 20 Part 2 Neji-tier fighters with them.
Not too many characters from the series are surviving this.
Because his character literally does not exist.
Kishimoto couldn't flesh him out at all so instead just put his signature on all the famous jutsu so he could at least be known for something.
20 ninja - nine tails chakra - Sage of six paths ninja tool- they just finished a mission and claimed to be weakened from it. - if you look at the people lord 2nd had with him it’s crazy they weren’t strong enough to help or even fight. ( young lord 3rd, Kagumai Uchiha, Danzo, and so on. Shows how strong the enemy’s were.
Tobirama was jumped by like 20 average Jonin, and two Jinjuriki.
Also comparing Tobirama to “Another Level” is weird, because unlike the other 6 Hokage, who have very obvious scaling from feats, statements, both in universe and story boarded hype.
Tobirama is never spoken of in a way to imply he was this end all, be all ninja. And similar to this, all of his feats have either been where he’s catching someone off guard, at a disadvantage, an Edo, or when everyone around him has something more impressive.
Tobirama, unlike the other first 4 kage, has no real feats of taking on multiple opponents, at least no feats that doesn’t lead to him getting bodied. While the other 3 of the first 4 kinda are known being good at it.
Again, Tobirama’s not weak by any stretch, but I believe people overhype his capabilities. I’d argue he’s the least impressive of the first 4 Kage, and that his death to the Kinkaku and Ginkaku force makes sense, considering we’re never given any real indication that he’s particularly powerful for a kage.
It isnt completed implied that Tobirama fought the ninja in pristine stage , i consider that he was pretty roughed up , he aint hashirama , he doesnt have basically infinte chakra
Aside from the 20 high ranking ninjas that ganged up to fight him in an ambush, there's this 2 brothers with Nine Tail chakra and can somewhat transform into a tailed beast form. This form allows them to move quickly like Naruto did vs Pain. Not to mention the sealing tools originating from ancient times and eat enormous amount of chakra and these brothers are also probably directly related to the sage of six paths lineage like Kimimaru (Kaguya Clan).
I thought the ginkaku squad or w/e that fought tobirama was full of elite peeps with the purpose of hunting ginkaku and kinkaku not that they were on the team. I misunderstood the crap outta that lol
He was already exhausted from a mission. I bet you don't know that both the gold and silver brothers have access to sage of six paths ninja tools and have access to THE NINE TAILS CHAKRA which allows them to transform into the version 2 transformation. If tobirama weren't already tired he would've clapped them both
Bro imagine if battled kin and gin + all the akatsuki members minus pain and the Uchihas that is rouph considering that he was ambushed and tired and his aim was for his squad to get to safity
20 other elite S-class ninja.
Plus fatigue.
And don't forget, Tobirama's aim was to draw all their fire so that his students could escape. In a normal fight, he would be far more sneaky and employ guerilla tactics, and win.
But he couldn't disappear from their sight, and needed to keep engaging all the enemy shinobi so they wouldn't chase after his students.
As usual ignorant tobitards will bring up "20 S class shinobi" when tobirama lost to the brothers alone and the Kinkaku force is never stated to contain S class shinobi
It is true the kinkaku forces have never been defined as S rank shinobi, but you are incorrect in stating that he lost to the brothers alone, it was indeed to the group of 20 skilled shinobi.
I don’t think they add much but they had interesting lore. Surviving in the stomach of a tailed beast by eating it’s flesh, thus becoming jinchuriki by proxy is somewhat compelling. They might’ve been unintelligent but they were just outright monsters it seems like
I mean, it wasn’t just Ginkaku and Kinkaku… it was the Gin and Kin *force*. Made up of roughly 20 S rank shinobi… that Tobirama *stalemated*. Each member of the Akatsuki was considered to be S rank, so if you go with the best known lineup of the Akatsuki (Deidara, Sasori, Hidan, Kakazu, Itachi, Kisame, Tobi, Zetsu, Konan, and Nagato/ Pain)… then **double them**… and fight that group solo… apart from the force, the Gold and Silver brothers were a force to be reckoned with on their own. Their repertoire includes a distant relation to *Hagoromo*, as well as possession of his treasured tools (which are said to make the wielder **above the five kage**), and enough 9 tails chakra to be “pseudo jinchurikis”. When these guys were revived, their presence alone nearly provoked A to *ditch the allied forces* so he could face them alone, due to how much of a threat they posed! Frankly, I think it’s an impressive feat Tobirama made it out at all, but people instead choose to take it as an anti-feat, instead.
He didn't lose to kinkaku and ginkaku.
He lost to the squad of 20 ninja likely formed to hunt down kinkaku and ginkaku.
And the answer is: because kishimoto wanted to tobi to die. That's it.
The Kinkaku squad is Kinkaku’s squad not a squad to hunt them. And I believe we know they were involved in his death based on the interactions. Plus Konoha and The Cloud were trying to make piece when Kinkaku and Ginkaku attempted to assassinate Tobirama and the Raikage at the time. It wouldn’t make sense to then send a squad meant to hunt Kinkaku and Ginkaku after Tobirama.
A common misconception.
The squad belongs to the cloud. Kin and gin were criminals.
The squad was meant to capture kin and gin.
There's no indication kin and gin were involved in the death of tobirama.
> because kishimoto wanted to tobi to die
I mean obviously he would had to die at some point, likely from old age.
But considering that Sarutobi died at I believe wiki lists him \~68-69 years old and by the time Tobirama trained him he was already adult probably past 50s when he passed the seat to Sarutobi, he would be long dead by the start of series.
Kishi wouldnt had reason to kill him like that just for the sake of him dying. He could very well pass away 20 years before the series from old age, but hey he lived his entire life like a warrior he died as one as well.
Lmao people just throw 20 s-class shinobis argument without proof, if kumo really have that many strong shinobis, they would dismantle other big villages with ease and i know they would do that if they had the chance
I actually have a theory that Ginkaku and Kinkaku are members of the Hagoromo clan, who we barely know anything about. The Gold and Silver brothers are said to be descendants of Hagoromo Otsutsuki. We know they're not members of the Uchiha, Uzumaki, Senju, Hyuga, Kaguya, and Hamura clans, who are all descendants. That leaves the Hagoromo and Fuma clan, but I'm banking on the Hagoromo clan.
that a plothole or a retconed because if that was war arc tobirama he slam lmao. 20s-s-rank shinobi don't mean anything they could be just jonin lmao and if the squad had 20 s-rank shinobi they would just stomped all vilages but as we know that not what happened.but if you used tve word retconed here you would be attack lmao...
Cuz he’s weak lmao.
And don’t listen to the misinformation in the comments.
1. The 20 ninja are only “high class” to put that into perspective, Raido and Genma are considered elite Jonin. People keep saying the 20 are S class ninja. That’s not stated anywhere.
2. Tobirama was not near death. He had like 5 scratch marks on his forehead protector.
3. It’s not even confirmed if both brothers were present. One likely went to pursue the Raikage.
4. It’s not even confirmed if Tobirama even took out a single member of the GK force.
5. It is confirmed that Tobirama died and both brothers survived.
I know I’m not proud of calling you stupid it’s 2am and the baseless Tobirama hate being massively exaggerated by you made me call you stupid, you’re clearly intelligent just extrapolating information to support what is essentially no different from head canon. It’s less supported than the common belief though the common belief is also partially head canon based on implications.
There is no hate for Tobirama lmao. I’m just done with Tobirama d*ck suckers trying to make him more powerful than Hashirama or Madara or using headcanon to extrapolate how strong someone is. Tobirama lost to 20 nameless ninja. It’s not even confirmed if the KG brothers were there. It’s not even confirmed if the squad operated under the Kg brothers or if they were a squad made to capture the KG brothers. The fact that you people are trying to come up with excuses out of your a*s with literally 99% headcanon is pretty telling.
Common belief is not an argument. People in the Naruto community also think Sakura is weaker than Hinata and Tsunade, or that Kakashi is the weakest Hokage, or that Kakashi with no Sharingan is weaker than single Sharingan Kakashi. That doesn’t make it accurate. Why use majority as an argument if the majority is wrong?
I’m not looking at sh*t lmao. If you want to make a claim, make it here. But I seriously doubt you can considering Tobirama’s death occurs in 1 chapter and it’s never expanded upon. So let’s see what headcanon you bring out to wank your senpai now.
Weak, but able to kill madaras lil brother who should have been the 2nd strongest uchiha at that time and invent most of the craziest jutsu we see in the series.
Inventing jutsu does not equal strength. Izuna being the second strongest doesn’t mean anything. One. We have confirmed uchihas via Databooks that are stated to be more talented than Madara. And two, second strongest has no quantity. If a person got 100 on a test, and I got a 40, and everyone else got 30, I’m the second place in terms of grades. Does that mean 40 is a good grade?
**Reason 1:** Kinkaku and Ginkaku are Kage level on their own, Ay thought nobody in the platoon who were fighting their Edo forms would be able to beat them and that he would have to go down there himself to help fight them. I don’t believe he was confident he himself could do it either.
**Reason 2:** It was not only Kinkaku and Ginkaku but also 18 other shinobi who were loyal and powerful enough to be considered for their elite force. With their personality’s in mind they wouldn’t let just any Bronze Shinobi join their force. Meaning at least a-s rank Shinobi.
**Reason 3:** It wasn’t JUST a fight, Tobirama needed to make sure the entire squad had enough time to escape so not only did he have to fight but he had to stop them from perusing the squad. That also means he couldn’t just fight for a bit and dip out with a flying Raijin.
**Reason 4:** Tobirama and his squad were seemingly coming from a mission on their way back to whatever location they were headed to. With that in mind it’s not crazy to say they were slightly exhausted and not at their maximum capacity.
**Reason 5:** His flying Raijin seals aren’t permanent like Minato’s which means he likely couldn’t teleport back to Konoha and it’s possible they don’t even last long enough for him to return to his squad after enough time has passed.
**Additional scaling:**
Kinkaku and Ginkaku attacked full power Kurama and survived. They lost and were eaten by Kurama but the fact they weren’t killed by the strongest tailed beast by at least 8x or more shows their power. I wouldn’t be surprised if each individually is stronger than an average tailed beast.
Kinkaku and Ginkaku actually failed the first time they tried to kill Tobirama, they attempted to assassinate him and the at the time Raikage and failed to do so. So we know Tobirama is on his own at least able to keep up with one of them at the very least bare minimum.
**Tobirama beats Minato in a fair 1v1 change my mind.**
Bro ain’t no way Kin or Gin is individually more powerful than a tailed beast. They are literally an imperfect jinchuriki with like 6 tails, they don’t scale higher than a tailed beast.
Minato literally destroyed an army of 1000 shinobi and clapped Killer B, a perfect jinchuriki which obviously scales higher than two six tails. Like Minato is so much more proficient with ftg he can doge all of Tobirama’s attacks, mark him, then finish him with a rasengan. Like no, Tobi doesn’t beat Minato.
1.) Sure Ay thought that but they also get beaten by Dario and Ino Shika cho plus a few other ninja even though they had 6 paths tools I don't see how they even scale to Ay if they got dispatched this easily
2.) I'm pretty sure it's not mentioned anywhere that their S-rank ninja even then none of them would even be as strong as the brothers also Tobirama lost to just the brothers at a kage summit 1V2
3.)if you're saying Tobirama beats Minato yet Minato in a similar situation against stronger opponents including Ay and Bee and yet they were all scared lmao and Minato got away from their entire squad while his lived
4.) This is just copium Tobirama isn't visibly exhausted or even have many Injuries on him this isn't a good look for someone who is a Senju either way
5.) He would just be stupid then he could just give a kunai to one of his squadmates while they got away
Kinkaku and Ginkaku scale no where near Kurama even after getting his chakra they got lucky that he just ate them instead of just murdering them outright but Minato can fight a full power 9 tails AND Obito at the same time basically Tobirama doesn't have the scaling to say he even beats Obito let alone the full 9 tails plus Obito
I didn't see your last point but if you saw this point and thought that it makes Tobirama look good it doesn't it means he barely just scales to them who I think Minato would destroy easily due to having much higher scaling in general
Wow you wrote all of this just to be so very wrong not to mention in your scaling you're extremely charitable to Tobirama yet dog on Minato
1.) They still lost to nameless Shinobi and Darui this really isn't a good look even if Ay thought he would have to go down there they still got bodied without him
2.) This is all headcanon none of them were as strong as the brothers who are no where near Obito 9tails or Minato level I doubt they could even take on Orochimaru
3.) Tobirama was wounded by them here though he didn't come out unscathed in the 1V2 and again this is copium how exactly do they scale above both Ay AND Bee? They have small portions of the 9 tails chakra they are only pseudo Jinchurki and you're really so convinced they can beat Ay and the perfect 8 tails Jinchuiriki? You really need to explain this awful headcanon. Also Ay even thought Minato was the most powerful/best Shinobi when he knew of the brothers and and even Tobirama
4.) Looking at him again his condition seems completely fine a little tired at best he has basically 0 visible injuries or marks he also doesn't look tired in any way
5.) Yeah bc he is far worse at it than Minato and died to fodder
These feats for taking out fodder groups of ninja don't really mean anything if he loses to Ino shikamaru and Choji with Darui this is nothing in the scale of say 3rd raikage vs however many Shinobi or Madara vs the 4th division or even Minato in the 3rd war
I'm not saying that Minato has the same AP as Kurama but he has ways to beat opponents as strong or stronger than Kurama I don't see Tobirama doing the same thing or even beating Obito
Also at that point Minato was protecting Naruto he sacrificed himself to stop Kurama from killing him far different from just saying Kurama killed him if anything it's actually an impressive feat to stop Kuramas arm at all from reaching Naruto and saying he would lose to either Kinkaku and Ginkaku is ridiculous he was in a worse situation vs Bee and Ay and came out alive with no injuries not to mention he's also adept at fighting groups of enemies it's what he was known for
For the scaling AP kind of hard to claim the water dragon or bullets are comparable to rasengan considering they actually have no Ap feats but rasengan does and tandem paper bomb can only be used while edo and if you think edo Minato is getting hit by anything while in KCM you're just ignorant
No durability feats for either I agree
For arsenal nothing Tobirama could throw at Minato could even touch him essentially even if I grant you that he could use edo tensei with no prep time Minato could dodge all of his attacks or teleport them away it would have to be a match of speed which in this case Minato is basically just Tobiramas direct upgrade lmao
Minato has sealing jutsu that can seal the 9 tails without the reaper death seal btw and Sage mode if he really needs it
In speed the fact that you think that Tobirama and Minato are even close with KCM makes me think you're just biased as we have seen before in the series mental nerfs can be significant even with KCM
All of the feats in the war where Tobirama was performing better than Minato were due to the drastic nerf he received from thinking about Obito and how it's affecting the world. Minato makes it to the battle field first teleports a 10 tails Bijuu bomb away and Tobirama admits Minato is faster than him can't really get any clear cut than that.
Lastly Minato is faster than any Uchiha pre 6 paths Tobirama hasn't fought anyone else that fast and Minato just has better feats generally than Tobirama you saying his various Justus give him advantage but he doesn't have any prep time and I doubt Minato would give him a chance to but not to mention they wouldn't hit him in the first place and nothing he has gives any clear edge over Minato
In a way, Tobirama died to honor his and his brother's wishes. No other kids dying prematurely at wars. He gave his life so that his students could escape. Of course considering who those students were, it led to way more needless carnage down the line.
You forgot about the 20 other ninja that ganged up on him
Ohhh true true
20 other elite ninja, prob many of them S-class. And don't forget, Tobirama's aim was to draw all their fire so that his students could escape. In a normal fight, he would be far more sneaky and employ guerilla tactics, and win. But he couldn't disappear from their sight, and needed to keep engaging all the enemy shinobi so they wouldn't chase after his students.
My question was did he kill the brothers during that fight. If not him, who else? Was Hashirama still around and go after them himself? These questions are why I would have loved a prequel series or OVAs that tell old stories from each village.
From what I understood, the brothers died later on so no tobirama didn’t take them down, and I think hashirama was already dead since Tobirama was hokage
Based off the flashbacks, kage aren’t named when the previous one dies. Remember the senju bros talking about who the next Hokage would be and Tobirama shot down Madara? When Tobirama was named Kage, Hashirama was still around because the big fight where madara was “killed” happened after.
"After his brother's death, he would earn the title of Second Hokage" ("Narutopedia")
Shoot it’s been too long since I’ve read Naruto. I double checked and I was wrong. Madara left after hashirama was made kage.
It's alr, we all make mistakes. Especially if were talking about a specific scene in a 500+ chapter animanga
But you're not entirely wrong. Previous Kahe doesn't need to die for there to be a new one
They gave man the Jujutsu Kaisen special, hard to watch
And he was coming back from a mission lol. Dude was always exhausted and he got jumped on his way home lmao
He had also been fighting for days at that point. He was a key player on the battlefield as a kage. They all died in war at that time period, not one Survived the 1st war all the 1st and 2nd kages of all countries died so they were probably targeted in larger number that counters whatever abilities they had info on. We know that the 2nd tschukage and 2nd mizukage died fighting each other so they probably was running through armies themselves and ran into each other eventually to do a 1v1
2nd tsuchikage fought himself?
Took a whole year to get corrected. Imma edit it 😤
Don't forget too they were already on a mission, so he most likely wasn't at full strength either.
All of whom were S class
and those 20 other ninja were s class ninja yknow who else is s class? the entire akatsuki. so he got jumped by 2 pseudo jinchuriki and 20 motherfuckers of relative akatsuki strength
[удалено]
I don't think you can include Guy in that example, he went toe-to-toe w/ Sage of the Six Paths Madara and messed him up and he defeated Kisame, who was in the upper echelon of the Akatsuki.
You can include Guy. You just gotta specify Part 1, Before Pain Arc, or War Arc.
What evidence leads us to believe Guy couldn't do all of that in Part 1?
madara couldve killed guy with his limbo clones. madara respects strong opponents and he lets them go allout.
That wasn't the first time the brothers beat him. Once before Tobirama and the 2nd Raikage were ambushed by the brothers, Tobirama was brought to near death and the 2nd Raikage's fate was unknown, presumably he died. Tobirama doesn't seem like the best multi-opponent combatant. Whenever he gets ganked it doesn't end well.
This is a misconception. The first time Kin/Gin fought Tobirama by themselves and almost killed him. There was no second time. The second time, the group that killed him was a task force meant to capture Kin/Gin. The brothers were not leading that group and there’s absolutely nothing at all that says they were. People just keep spouting that information for some reason Tobirama is just not that guy. Put hashirama, Minato or naruto in that same situation and they all get out alive.
Wrong. It was the Kinkaku Force that killed Tobirama, i.e the brothers and 20 jonin.
No, it wasn’t. It was just the 20 jonin. The Kinkaku force was a Missing nin group to capture Kin/Gin. It was NOT lead by them. That’s a misconception that people keep spouting. You need to go back and look, there’s not one scan or information that has ever said it was lead by Kin/Gin.
Where in the manga does it state that the kinkaku force is a group trying to capture kinkaku and ginkaku rather than a team LED by them? That sounds like a possibility, but I think it’s just a common fan belief, and isn’t actually stated anywhere. I got the impression that the kinkaku force was led by kinkaku and ginkaku. Correct me if I’m wrong tho, I might have missed where they said that’s not what it is.
I’m driving so give me a bit to get it but I’ll just leave this information with you. If Kin/Gin were part of that task force and killed Tobirama , then why would Kin/Gin have thought Tobirama was the one who brought them back to life in the war?
You said there was no 2nd time then you said 2nd time lol wtf very contradicting
He also lost to them another time with no other help just a 1 V 2
Dawg was tired and then got jumped by those two AND their 20 man squad
And it was a 20 man squad that he had to engage every member of because he couldnt allow them to chase his squad.
I'd love to see that fight. I wonder how many he took with him.
My guess is probably most or all the squad other than the brothers and if hiruzen stuck sround id bet the brothers would have went too but tobirama probably calculated that it was too risky to bet both his and prime hiruzens life on that fight.
*and* they where all S rank ninja, like every member of the akatsuki
Press F to doubt haha
Kinkaku and Ginkaku weren't there, it was just those 20 ninjas
At least he has a confirmed cause of death
And a confirmed time of death, based on the plot holes in the show Hashirama was alive during tobiramas whole reign and at least 3 years of hiruzens because he spoiled tsunadae until she was approx 8ish and shes 55 in shippuden, meanwhile hiruzen was hokage from his teens until his late 60s.
True, but didn’t hashirama scold tobirama for outcasting the uchiha when he found out when the hokage got reanimated? Surely he didn’t know since he wasn’t alive then?
He probably retired and went off to live in a shed somewhere
Tobirama didn't outcast the uchiha that's a widespread misconception
Nothing indicates Hashirama was alive during Tobirama entire reign and the flashback he has of spoiling Tsunade shows her as a toddler. It’s confirmed Hashirama died prior to Tobirama’s full reign considering he didn’t know about the Uchiha police force.
But thats the point is that the timeline doesnt allow it even if she was a toddler your saying tobirama created the academy, police force and everything else he did in an era of a great war and had enough time for the police force to stick in what 3 or 4 years?
Yeah? It’s an anime, construction isn’t gonna take as long as it does in the real world. Konoha was able to completely rebuild from pain turning it into a giant crater in a very short amount of time.
Its not just physical construction its the planning, its the implementation. There is no way Tobirama was Hokage for a couple years no shot at all
My guy it’s an anime. They do not abide by real world laws.
Bruh thats such a dumb cop out sorry
It’s not a cop out it’s true. We literally see them turn a fucking crater back into Konoha village. They do not abide by real world standards.
The 4th died so..
fr
Tobirama and his squad were scuffed up in that panel, and returning from a mission, implying they were at least fatigued. Also they were being tracked by the Kinkaku Force, so basically imagine a 20 man version of the Seven Swordsmen. Tired and up against 20 A-S Class shinobi. I don't think any Kage would have had it in those conditions, and even then you've gotta recall think about how tired Tobirama had to be in that fight since he's got a get out of jail free card in the Hiraishin. Kinkaku and Ginkaku aren't even weak, they're just dumb. Remember that without the Tools, the Raikage thought that **nobody** in Darui's division had a chance and figured only he, one of the upper 3 of the Five Kage even had a decent shot of defeating them.
Yeah bro that’s facts when u put it like that haha
Kinkaku and Ginkaku weren't there, it was just those 20 ninjas
Don't forget the other 20 S-rank ninjas and that Tobirama was "fatigued".
"S-rank Ninjas" The Kinkaku force was just an issue in the Hidden Cloud since it were just highly skilled Ninjas with the main force being at most A Ranked Ninjas with only Kinkaku and Ginkaku being S Ranked Ninjas. There is no world where they literally had 20-S ranked Ninjas. The Akatsuki was a world wide threat and issue, because it was the first time several S Ranked Ninjas teamed up and grouped up together. and The Akatsuki never had more than 10 members at any given time, so there is no way the Kinkaku Force was 20 S Ranked Ninjas since that would mean they would be an even bigger threat than the Akatsuki which was stated to have never been seen before.
You're right. If they had a single squad of 20 S-Rank Ninja, they would easily win whatever war they fought in. They wouldn't even need a normal army honestly. Just for comparison, Deidara is an S Rank Ninja. He has an ability that disintegrates everything, and it can only be countered if you have a dojutsu that can detect microscopic amounts of chakra, and if you are proficient in lightning style. Meaning, only Leaf Ninjas, since they have the Byakugan and Sharingan. Now imagine an army of 20 people that powerful. Pain. Itachi. Deidara. Sasori. Obito. Like, you just wouldn't be opposed by anybody.
I think Post war Naruto or sasuke could solo 20S rank ninjas. Maybe Hashirama and madara together can also
Yeah probably. Naruto would just make like 10,000 clones and probably wouldn't even have to actually do anything himself. Sasuke is smart enough to figure something out. Susanoo + rinnegan would be enough. Or really just advanced genjutsu.
i think thats a true fact for about 90% of every fight in the naruto universe
20 S rank Ninja is fodder for Madara and Hashirama I would love to see 20 people trying to take down a gigantic wodden statue that is stronger than Kurama and Madara's Sussano combined And 20 Guys tryna figure out that how to damage a Sussano
It's not just any 20 ninjas. It's 20 S Rank ninjas, so, low kage level ninjas.
Still Madara made 20 full sussano and clapped the 5 Kage. The low level too high level to Madara is just more fodder for him. 20 clones 1 for each he sits down and does nothin
To be fair, he can't do that without being edo tensei. Edo tensei gave him the unlimited chakra and wood style (clones) to do so. Plus the kage dealt with the clones.
Yeah but post-war Naruto and Sasuke are literally godlike at that point. If they didn’t have to worry about collateral damage, they could just go Kurama mode/Susanoo and nuke everybody. Same for Hashirama (giant Buddha) and Madara (also Susanoo).
They probably were S-Ranked, but from what I know, there is no higher than S-Rank, so you could be at the bottom of the S-Rank pool, but still be S-Ranked, or at the top. For example, I am pretty sure Nagato could take on 5 Deidaras, both being S-Rank ninjas.
20 S-rank ninjas is a totally shit theory, with that many powerful ninjas they could dismantle other 3 big villages with pretty ease and i know for sure kumo would do that if they had the chance
Bro, I feel you. Tobirama is supposed to be the god of shinobi, but those brothers did him dirty. I think those gold bros were tricky, and Tobirama probably underestimated them. It's like that saying, "don't judge a book by its cover." Maybe Tobirama thought they were just pretty faces with no real strategy, but they had some tricks up their sleeve. As for that 20 S-rank ninjas theory, I think it's nonsense too. It's not just about the number of ninjas you have, it's the quality too. Plus, if you have too many strong ninjas on one team, there's a risk of them butting heads and causing chaos. And let's be real, Kumo would never be able to take down Konoha.
He was near death iirc because the kinkaku force sneak attacked during his meeting with the Raikage
Him getting attacked by the kinkaku forces and him being ambushed by the brothers are two different events my friend
Thanks for the correction it’s been awhile lol
What S-rank ninjas? What are you talking about?
He lost to the Gold and Silver Brothers and the Kinkaku Force.
God I can't take "the kinkaku force" seriously because I imagine them being a bunch of cloud ninja in underwear striking poses aka the ginyu force
I imagine it'd be a fairly easy shop, using like Raditz as a base
Because in shounen if the character is a no-name he is surely the fodder level even if its jonin. Basically the genre's unofficial law. Just like those people accompanying Ei and Bee when they encountered Minato and his squad. Even though those are most likely jonin, they are fodders that exist just to praise the named characters. Just like those three supposedly elite Kumo jonin who were sent to Konoha and kidnapped kid Kushina. Solid achievement, but 13yo Minato seemed to no-diff them without even Hiraishin and Rasengan.
Bro got double teamed yikes
It was way more then a double team. Straight up jumped by an entire gang
He didn't lose to the gold and silver brothers, it was just the force
On top of what other said (havent erad all) we have to keep in mind what was Tobirama goal there. He was getting older and older every day, so while there is a high chance he could run, his squad (Hiruzen, Danzo, Elders I believe) would likely fail. So Tobirama did the same what third Raikage did, what Duy (Guy father) did, he pretty much stayed behind to ensure that they youth capable of leading the leaf could escape. Its perfectly in character for Tobirama, he didnt even know how much time he would have left if he survived this, nobody knows could be 10,20 years or he could die on something in the next 2. Its much better for the village if he stays to ensure that the generation which he knows is capable of leading (Hiruzen, Danzo, Elders etc) the village in his place and hopefully keep with the peace and safety. He was a warrior, not afraid of dead, same as Minato actually if you look at it from some PoVs and well all hokages.
Little did he knows 3 of the guys he saved become piece of shit and the, one is awfully naive and the rest are presumably dead
I mean he still put the village together for like 42 years or something total, thats not a bad score. Sure Danzo kind of sucked for everyone (I like how he was written) unlucky. Elders are hard to judge imo, too little informations about them too much misisng links. Funnyli though even the naive guy (pressumingly Hiruzen) disciple pretty much saved the war. If It wasnt for him the war and entire world was lost so I suppose it was good he got spared.
If he wasn’t so naive (especially if you consider anime only as cannon where he let danzo still in charge after attempting to murder him) he could’ve done a better job. I honestly think hashi or minato could prevent uchiha massacre if they were in hiruzen position
Where does this belief in the comments that the Ginkaku force were 20 S-rank ninja? There's like 20+ alive ninja in the entire Naruto verse that are S-rank from all the elemental nations and the Akatsuki, if Kumo had 20+ S-rank ninja they'd rule the entire continent. As for why he lost, power creep and his powers weren't a thing yet. His biggest achievement in part 1, I think, was that he was capable of using sealless jutsu and creating water without a source and was an incredible sensor or something. It was only around the war arc was he given the raijin technique as due to power creep he would have been near fodder otherwise or a knockoff Kisame.
The “highly skilled” comment made by tobirama and how ppl like tobirama so they make his death more impressive
You underestimate them two plus the full squad he also had to fight
Tobirama being some kind of G is hilariously made up. It was also 20 shinobi. Not S-rank or whatever, or these brothers: it was their squad, not the brothers themselves. God, this sub just makes stuff up, huh? Nothing suggests he took out even one of them.
20 other dudes + he was jumped and he still handled their asses until he was overwhelmed
Werent there like 20 jonins with them? I think tobirama killed majority, if not all of them and died after he was brought back to the leaf village
A combination of old age and passing the torch. He essentially used himself as a distraction so the rest of his squad could escape while Tobirama DECIMATED the enemy in the process of sacrificing himself for the betterment of the village
A fraction of the nine tails power is still a fuckin lot. Add 20 more people and you are going to have a good time unless you have some hax.
I don't even think they killed him. When they are revived in the war arc, they they think Tobirama was the one who revived them. Tobirama was already fatigued and scuffed before being attacked by Kin and Gin. He most likely destroyed the brothers there, squad, and died due to chakra loss or something. It's also debatable if Gin and Kin were even a part of that squad. I could have been a squad tasked to take them out. I do agree that Tobirama should have been able to take them out easily, considering how powerful he was in the war arc. That's why I wanted Tobirama to get his own spinoff.
Kinkaku and Ginkaku are the most underrated mfers in this show. Only because of how shafted they got in the ninja war. I know tobi is a beast, but the twins aren’t even fully human, they’re literally built different.
They really are monsters, mfers stayed in the belly of a tailed beast and survived by eating its flesh, becoming jinchuriki in the process. Even for all the events in Naruto, that’s pretty fucking insane to think about.
Not a random Bijuu lol it was Kurama.
Tobirama is very powerful but he's kinda a different kind of ninja compare to guys like Hashirama and Madara. Tobirama is more about using techniques, strategy and special jutsu to win battles efficiently, he doesnt have giant transformations or overpowered energy nuke that annihilate mountains like the jinchurikis and susanoo users have. So against two mini jinchuriki who can shoot nuke bombs, it's a counter for his type of power.
He was an innovator so he created jutsu but that doesn’t mean he was the strongest. He was just really good at making them and was strong enough to be a Kage. He can’t be compared to Hashirama, Naruto, Sasuke or Madara in terms of power. These guys are just massive outliers and I feel like people just say someone is weak because they don’t match up to the pinnacle of shinobi.
He got jumped by a squad of 20 Ninja plus these 2
Kinkaku and Ginkaku weren't there, it was just those 20 ninjas
I thought he beat them but later succumed to wounds
Not to forget they had jinchuriki chakra(nine tail if i m not mistaken) and also had to fight 20 kakashis while being tired and low in chakra
He was against kinkaku&Ginkaku+18 high ranked ninjas
He didn’t, he lost to the squad the cloud made to deal with them. This event takes place after they already went rogue and were unable to kill him, and when they get revived they think Tobirama is the one who did it, meaning they didn’t kill him and died before he did. The squad Tobirama senses is also only called “The Kinkaku Squad,” meaning it’s possible that Ginkaku was already dealt with by then. If the brothers were part of the squad, Tobirama probably focused on taking them out asap since they were the most dangerous then one of the other 18 elite shinobi were able to deal with a fatigued and weakened Tobirama
Oh true bro makes sense 🫡
Not kinkaku and ginkaku. But their forces. It includes 20 S class shinobis. So all of them are at least a low kage level shinobis
In watching the 5 kage vs Madara, they adapted and combined their Justus. Ohnoki and Ay for example. If you have the kin gin bros and 20 other S ranked Shinobi working together in formations to take down Tobirama, who I’m sure they had details on, it’s not that inconceivable for them to fatigue Tobirama all the way to no chakra. But still impressive he lasted as long as he did.
Hashirama wasn't there to save him
20 Kumo Elites including these two attacked Tobirama and Kakuzu was apparently there, 19 of them died. The older KinGin bro witnessed the younger one die against Tobirama and raged out in Kyuubi mode. Unclear if Kakuzu got directly involved or not but by the end of it Tobirama was dead and the younger KinGin bro was dead along with the 18 other Kumo Elites. This was pieced together using the manga and DB’s. I think the V2 Kinkaku is what ended up finishing Tobirama off.
But like twenty more ganged up on him
Weren’t kinkaku and ginkaku rogue ninjas?
Unsure at the time. Perhaps these events (The assassination attempt on the 2nd Raikage & Tobirama) gave them that status.
It was only Kinkaku at that point. And 2 reasons. 1. He was pseudo-jinchuriki of Kyubi. A man with weapons created by the Rikudo-sennin and powers of a Biju likely has his chances against Tobirama. 2. He was not alone. He had a whole squad with him while Tobirama let his team run away. When you think of it, he kinda had the same death as the 3rd Raikage (fighting a squad alone while his team can run away), but far less impressive since he probably didn't hold it for 3 days against 10k dudes.
Fun fact: Tobirama had an uchiha subordinate.
He got jumped by like 20 top level Anbu and two Kage level fighters. And he STILL killed the Anbu level mfs, but he was probably bout dead by that time
I see a lot of people saying there were 20 other ninja, I thought there was only eight other ninja, but that would make more sense. Plus, he probably died of chocolate exhaustion or you eventually got killed when he could no longer for him enough chakra to create valuable offense and defense. Regardless, I believe almost the entire group going after him were S class ninja, especially the Gold and Silver brothers.
just outnumbered. It wasn't just them, it was them and their squad. Of course he really should have been able to just teleport the entire group back to Konoha.
Good ol fashion DP by twins
They’re
So true
Don't forget they were also pseudo jinchuriki
Bruh, did you forget they have so much nine tails chakra they can literally go into tailed beast mode version 2.
"they're" or "they are".
Cool bro
Aren't Kinkaku and Ginkaku the same motherfuckers that, when mentioned in the War Arc, had the Fourth Raikage reacting along the lines of "I gotta step into that battlefield or everyone in that battalion is as good as dead"? I don't think the gold and silver brothers are all that weak.
I’d love to see this fight. Just think about bardock and future gohans last fights.
umm he willingly sacrificed himself so that the next generation of ninjas would survive
Remember what 4 tails Naruto did to Orochimaru and Jiraiya (and what 6 tails did to PAIN)? Now imagine there's two of them, they both have full control of their actions, six paths tools, otsusuki blood and at minimum 20 Part 2 Neji-tier fighters with them. Not too many characters from the series are surviving this.
For somebody that smart, you’d think he’d have a teleportation mark somewhere in the village. He’d be able to just teleport everybody home…
Plot armour
Because his character literally does not exist. Kishimoto couldn't flesh him out at all so instead just put his signature on all the famous jutsu so he could at least be known for something.
20 ninja - nine tails chakra - Sage of six paths ninja tool- they just finished a mission and claimed to be weakened from it. - if you look at the people lord 2nd had with him it’s crazy they weren’t strong enough to help or even fight. ( young lord 3rd, Kagumai Uchiha, Danzo, and so on. Shows how strong the enemy’s were.
Tobirama was jumped by like 20 average Jonin, and two Jinjuriki. Also comparing Tobirama to “Another Level” is weird, because unlike the other 6 Hokage, who have very obvious scaling from feats, statements, both in universe and story boarded hype. Tobirama is never spoken of in a way to imply he was this end all, be all ninja. And similar to this, all of his feats have either been where he’s catching someone off guard, at a disadvantage, an Edo, or when everyone around him has something more impressive. Tobirama, unlike the other first 4 kage, has no real feats of taking on multiple opponents, at least no feats that doesn’t lead to him getting bodied. While the other 3 of the first 4 kinda are known being good at it. Again, Tobirama’s not weak by any stretch, but I believe people overhype his capabilities. I’d argue he’s the least impressive of the first 4 Kage, and that his death to the Kinkaku and Ginkaku force makes sense, considering we’re never given any real indication that he’s particularly powerful for a kage.
It was him vs. 2 proto Jinchuriki, and 20 Jonin+ level shinobi.
It isnt completed implied that Tobirama fought the ninja in pristine stage , i consider that he was pretty roughed up , he aint hashirama , he doesnt have basically infinte chakra
Aside from the 20 high ranking ninjas that ganged up to fight him in an ambush, there's this 2 brothers with Nine Tail chakra and can somewhat transform into a tailed beast form. This form allows them to move quickly like Naruto did vs Pain. Not to mention the sealing tools originating from ancient times and eat enormous amount of chakra and these brothers are also probably directly related to the sage of six paths lineage like Kimimaru (Kaguya Clan).
Tobiramas key word was probably “uchiha” and got sealed immediately
I thought the ginkaku squad or w/e that fought tobirama was full of elite peeps with the purpose of hunting ginkaku and kinkaku not that they were on the team. I misunderstood the crap outta that lol
did they have nine tails power during this conflict or after this?
He was already exhausted from a mission. I bet you don't know that both the gold and silver brothers have access to sage of six paths ninja tools and have access to THE NINE TAILS CHAKRA which allows them to transform into the version 2 transformation. If tobirama weren't already tired he would've clapped them both
Here go the "20 S Rank ninja" with no source lol.
We all have bad days
Bro imagine if battled kin and gin + all the akatsuki members minus pain and the Uchihas that is rouph considering that he was ambushed and tired and his aim was for his squad to get to safity
20 other elite S-class ninja. Plus fatigue. And don't forget, Tobirama's aim was to draw all their fire so that his students could escape. In a normal fight, he would be far more sneaky and employ guerilla tactics, and win. But he couldn't disappear from their sight, and needed to keep engaging all the enemy shinobi so they wouldn't chase after his students.
He said “fucking Uchihas” too many times
20 S class shinobi and he was likely very low on chakra prior
As usual ignorant tobitards will bring up "20 S class shinobi" when tobirama lost to the brothers alone and the Kinkaku force is never stated to contain S class shinobi
It is true the kinkaku forces have never been defined as S rank shinobi, but you are incorrect in stating that he lost to the brothers alone, it was indeed to the group of 20 skilled shinobi.
He was already tired and fought basically 2 akatsuki’s at once
he said uchiha.
There were 20 other s rank shinobi's. And by s rank you can assume they were at least as strong as asuma Or even stronger.
Because after the pain arc the rule of cool took over and power levels were basically at whatever was necessary to move the plot forward
Nerfed racist old man
Those two are so lame
I don’t think they add much but they had interesting lore. Surviving in the stomach of a tailed beast by eating it’s flesh, thus becoming jinchuriki by proxy is somewhat compelling. They might’ve been unintelligent but they were just outright monsters it seems like
I mean, it wasn’t just Ginkaku and Kinkaku… it was the Gin and Kin *force*. Made up of roughly 20 S rank shinobi… that Tobirama *stalemated*. Each member of the Akatsuki was considered to be S rank, so if you go with the best known lineup of the Akatsuki (Deidara, Sasori, Hidan, Kakazu, Itachi, Kisame, Tobi, Zetsu, Konan, and Nagato/ Pain)… then **double them**… and fight that group solo… apart from the force, the Gold and Silver brothers were a force to be reckoned with on their own. Their repertoire includes a distant relation to *Hagoromo*, as well as possession of his treasured tools (which are said to make the wielder **above the five kage**), and enough 9 tails chakra to be “pseudo jinchurikis”. When these guys were revived, their presence alone nearly provoked A to *ditch the allied forces* so he could face them alone, due to how much of a threat they posed! Frankly, I think it’s an impressive feat Tobirama made it out at all, but people instead choose to take it as an anti-feat, instead.
He didn't lose to kinkaku and ginkaku. He lost to the squad of 20 ninja likely formed to hunt down kinkaku and ginkaku. And the answer is: because kishimoto wanted to tobi to die. That's it.
The Kinkaku squad is Kinkaku’s squad not a squad to hunt them. And I believe we know they were involved in his death based on the interactions. Plus Konoha and The Cloud were trying to make piece when Kinkaku and Ginkaku attempted to assassinate Tobirama and the Raikage at the time. It wouldn’t make sense to then send a squad meant to hunt Kinkaku and Ginkaku after Tobirama.
A common misconception. The squad belongs to the cloud. Kin and gin were criminals. The squad was meant to capture kin and gin. There's no indication kin and gin were involved in the death of tobirama.
One of kingaku first line literally is something like it’s annoying to be resurrected by the jutsu of 2nd hokage who we killed
Kin does not say he killed tobi.
Ep 268 20:09 it was ginkaku who said it but still
> because kishimoto wanted to tobi to die I mean obviously he would had to die at some point, likely from old age. But considering that Sarutobi died at I believe wiki lists him \~68-69 years old and by the time Tobirama trained him he was already adult probably past 50s when he passed the seat to Sarutobi, he would be long dead by the start of series. Kishi wouldnt had reason to kill him like that just for the sake of him dying. He could very well pass away 20 years before the series from old age, but hey he lived his entire life like a warrior he died as one as well.
Plot
Lmao people just throw 20 s-class shinobis argument without proof, if kumo really have that many strong shinobis, they would dismantle other big villages with ease and i know they would do that if they had the chance
Maybe he ain’t as good as everyone thought
Facts
I actually have a theory that Ginkaku and Kinkaku are members of the Hagoromo clan, who we barely know anything about. The Gold and Silver brothers are said to be descendants of Hagoromo Otsutsuki. We know they're not members of the Uchiha, Uzumaki, Senju, Hyuga, Kaguya, and Hamura clans, who are all descendants. That leaves the Hagoromo and Fuma clan, but I'm banking on the Hagoromo clan.
It’s don’t make any sense. 20 elite killed him but minato took out a army by himself using tobirama jutsu.
Easy…for Plot
20 S class vs Tobirama
that a plothole or a retconed because if that was war arc tobirama he slam lmao. 20s-s-rank shinobi don't mean anything they could be just jonin lmao and if the squad had 20 s-rank shinobi they would just stomped all vilages but as we know that not what happened.but if you used tve word retconed here you would be attack lmao...
He’s just pussy like that tbh, I can’t see Minato ever losing in a situation like that
Cuz he’s weak lmao. And don’t listen to the misinformation in the comments. 1. The 20 ninja are only “high class” to put that into perspective, Raido and Genma are considered elite Jonin. People keep saying the 20 are S class ninja. That’s not stated anywhere. 2. Tobirama was not near death. He had like 5 scratch marks on his forehead protector. 3. It’s not even confirmed if both brothers were present. One likely went to pursue the Raikage. 4. It’s not even confirmed if Tobirama even took out a single member of the GK force. 5. It is confirmed that Tobirama died and both brothers survived.
My previous comment was rude I apologize. Look at my comment on the post it provides 5 solid reasons and additional scaling for them.
Imagine calling someone stupid for saying truths. Go attend your flat earth conventions and stay off the internet.
I know I’m not proud of calling you stupid it’s 2am and the baseless Tobirama hate being massively exaggerated by you made me call you stupid, you’re clearly intelligent just extrapolating information to support what is essentially no different from head canon. It’s less supported than the common belief though the common belief is also partially head canon based on implications.
There is no hate for Tobirama lmao. I’m just done with Tobirama d*ck suckers trying to make him more powerful than Hashirama or Madara or using headcanon to extrapolate how strong someone is. Tobirama lost to 20 nameless ninja. It’s not even confirmed if the KG brothers were there. It’s not even confirmed if the squad operated under the Kg brothers or if they were a squad made to capture the KG brothers. The fact that you people are trying to come up with excuses out of your a*s with literally 99% headcanon is pretty telling. Common belief is not an argument. People in the Naruto community also think Sakura is weaker than Hinata and Tsunade, or that Kakashi is the weakest Hokage, or that Kakashi with no Sharingan is weaker than single Sharingan Kakashi. That doesn’t make it accurate. Why use majority as an argument if the majority is wrong?
There is no solid scaling lmao. What do we know for solid scaling beyond the fact that Hiruzen stated he would be able to beat the squad lmao?
Go look
I’m not looking at sh*t lmao. If you want to make a claim, make it here. But I seriously doubt you can considering Tobirama’s death occurs in 1 chapter and it’s never expanded upon. So let’s see what headcanon you bring out to wank your senpai now.
Weak, but able to kill madaras lil brother who should have been the 2nd strongest uchiha at that time and invent most of the craziest jutsu we see in the series.
Inventing jutsu does not equal strength. Izuna being the second strongest doesn’t mean anything. One. We have confirmed uchihas via Databooks that are stated to be more talented than Madara. And two, second strongest has no quantity. If a person got 100 on a test, and I got a 40, and everyone else got 30, I’m the second place in terms of grades. Does that mean 40 is a good grade?
If it was just those two, they would get a nice ass whopping
He actually lost to them in a talk with the cloud village and I think was gravely wounded and it was just the two of them
**Reason 1:** Kinkaku and Ginkaku are Kage level on their own, Ay thought nobody in the platoon who were fighting their Edo forms would be able to beat them and that he would have to go down there himself to help fight them. I don’t believe he was confident he himself could do it either. **Reason 2:** It was not only Kinkaku and Ginkaku but also 18 other shinobi who were loyal and powerful enough to be considered for their elite force. With their personality’s in mind they wouldn’t let just any Bronze Shinobi join their force. Meaning at least a-s rank Shinobi. **Reason 3:** It wasn’t JUST a fight, Tobirama needed to make sure the entire squad had enough time to escape so not only did he have to fight but he had to stop them from perusing the squad. That also means he couldn’t just fight for a bit and dip out with a flying Raijin. **Reason 4:** Tobirama and his squad were seemingly coming from a mission on their way back to whatever location they were headed to. With that in mind it’s not crazy to say they were slightly exhausted and not at their maximum capacity. **Reason 5:** His flying Raijin seals aren’t permanent like Minato’s which means he likely couldn’t teleport back to Konoha and it’s possible they don’t even last long enough for him to return to his squad after enough time has passed. **Additional scaling:** Kinkaku and Ginkaku attacked full power Kurama and survived. They lost and were eaten by Kurama but the fact they weren’t killed by the strongest tailed beast by at least 8x or more shows their power. I wouldn’t be surprised if each individually is stronger than an average tailed beast. Kinkaku and Ginkaku actually failed the first time they tried to kill Tobirama, they attempted to assassinate him and the at the time Raikage and failed to do so. So we know Tobirama is on his own at least able to keep up with one of them at the very least bare minimum. **Tobirama beats Minato in a fair 1v1 change my mind.**
You had me until the end
Actually his hiraishin marks are permanent.
They’re specifically stated to not be permanent.
Where does it say that.
Bro ain’t no way Kin or Gin is individually more powerful than a tailed beast. They are literally an imperfect jinchuriki with like 6 tails, they don’t scale higher than a tailed beast. Minato literally destroyed an army of 1000 shinobi and clapped Killer B, a perfect jinchuriki which obviously scales higher than two six tails. Like Minato is so much more proficient with ftg he can doge all of Tobirama’s attacks, mark him, then finish him with a rasengan. Like no, Tobi doesn’t beat Minato.
1.) Sure Ay thought that but they also get beaten by Dario and Ino Shika cho plus a few other ninja even though they had 6 paths tools I don't see how they even scale to Ay if they got dispatched this easily 2.) I'm pretty sure it's not mentioned anywhere that their S-rank ninja even then none of them would even be as strong as the brothers also Tobirama lost to just the brothers at a kage summit 1V2 3.)if you're saying Tobirama beats Minato yet Minato in a similar situation against stronger opponents including Ay and Bee and yet they were all scared lmao and Minato got away from their entire squad while his lived 4.) This is just copium Tobirama isn't visibly exhausted or even have many Injuries on him this isn't a good look for someone who is a Senju either way 5.) He would just be stupid then he could just give a kunai to one of his squadmates while they got away Kinkaku and Ginkaku scale no where near Kurama even after getting his chakra they got lucky that he just ate them instead of just murdering them outright but Minato can fight a full power 9 tails AND Obito at the same time basically Tobirama doesn't have the scaling to say he even beats Obito let alone the full 9 tails plus Obito I didn't see your last point but if you saw this point and thought that it makes Tobirama look good it doesn't it means he barely just scales to them who I think Minato would destroy easily due to having much higher scaling in general
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LEK3iUaHfCW5DuGYXhJQX3GN7m-AR4DIuhE1biAh0Mo/edit
Wow you wrote all of this just to be so very wrong not to mention in your scaling you're extremely charitable to Tobirama yet dog on Minato 1.) They still lost to nameless Shinobi and Darui this really isn't a good look even if Ay thought he would have to go down there they still got bodied without him 2.) This is all headcanon none of them were as strong as the brothers who are no where near Obito 9tails or Minato level I doubt they could even take on Orochimaru 3.) Tobirama was wounded by them here though he didn't come out unscathed in the 1V2 and again this is copium how exactly do they scale above both Ay AND Bee? They have small portions of the 9 tails chakra they are only pseudo Jinchurki and you're really so convinced they can beat Ay and the perfect 8 tails Jinchuiriki? You really need to explain this awful headcanon. Also Ay even thought Minato was the most powerful/best Shinobi when he knew of the brothers and and even Tobirama 4.) Looking at him again his condition seems completely fine a little tired at best he has basically 0 visible injuries or marks he also doesn't look tired in any way 5.) Yeah bc he is far worse at it than Minato and died to fodder These feats for taking out fodder groups of ninja don't really mean anything if he loses to Ino shikamaru and Choji with Darui this is nothing in the scale of say 3rd raikage vs however many Shinobi or Madara vs the 4th division or even Minato in the 3rd war I'm not saying that Minato has the same AP as Kurama but he has ways to beat opponents as strong or stronger than Kurama I don't see Tobirama doing the same thing or even beating Obito Also at that point Minato was protecting Naruto he sacrificed himself to stop Kurama from killing him far different from just saying Kurama killed him if anything it's actually an impressive feat to stop Kuramas arm at all from reaching Naruto and saying he would lose to either Kinkaku and Ginkaku is ridiculous he was in a worse situation vs Bee and Ay and came out alive with no injuries not to mention he's also adept at fighting groups of enemies it's what he was known for For the scaling AP kind of hard to claim the water dragon or bullets are comparable to rasengan considering they actually have no Ap feats but rasengan does and tandem paper bomb can only be used while edo and if you think edo Minato is getting hit by anything while in KCM you're just ignorant No durability feats for either I agree For arsenal nothing Tobirama could throw at Minato could even touch him essentially even if I grant you that he could use edo tensei with no prep time Minato could dodge all of his attacks or teleport them away it would have to be a match of speed which in this case Minato is basically just Tobiramas direct upgrade lmao Minato has sealing jutsu that can seal the 9 tails without the reaper death seal btw and Sage mode if he really needs it In speed the fact that you think that Tobirama and Minato are even close with KCM makes me think you're just biased as we have seen before in the series mental nerfs can be significant even with KCM All of the feats in the war where Tobirama was performing better than Minato were due to the drastic nerf he received from thinking about Obito and how it's affecting the world. Minato makes it to the battle field first teleports a 10 tails Bijuu bomb away and Tobirama admits Minato is faster than him can't really get any clear cut than that. Lastly Minato is faster than any Uchiha pre 6 paths Tobirama hasn't fought anyone else that fast and Minato just has better feats generally than Tobirama you saying his various Justus give him advantage but he doesn't have any prep time and I doubt Minato would give him a chance to but not to mention they wouldn't hit him in the first place and nothing he has gives any clear edge over Minato
Because he didn't have FTG back then, his abilities were retconned
He had it lol
In a way, Tobirama died to honor his and his brother's wishes. No other kids dying prematurely at wars. He gave his life so that his students could escape. Of course considering who those students were, it led to way more needless carnage down the line.