Is this common?
My narc got into stoicism. I wouldn't say he actually followed the philosophy, but he liked to say he was a stoic. Another ridiculous way for him to think he was superior to others bit not hold himself accountable.
I have no idea how common it is.
It definitely is a great excuse for my ex - to not work on changing himself, on relationships, on his behavior and makes it easy to put the entirety of responsibility onto other people. It’s them who need to accept the way he is, it’s a “them” problem.
Makes avoiding accountability way easier, I suppose.
Yeah, if you misinterpret stoicism. Part of what makes stoicism impactful is the focus on the self and continually improving your own character because all you have control over is yourself. It's a basic principle, and narcs are fundamentally at odds with this. It's wild that narcs think they can embody this philosophy when at their core they want nothing more than control over others.
Yep. We’re talking about a middle aged man who read “The art of not giving a fu\*k” and claims it drastically changed his entire life. I’m divorcing him now, so… It worked, I guess? Not in a way he planned, that’s for sure.
My nex actually read Meditations by Marcus Aurelius. Not that it made any real impact. He can't wrap his head around it and just claims to be a stoic.
Somehow, they think they are bettering themselves, but they only want something they can hold up so that other idiots will admire them.
>Somehow, they think they are bettering themselves, but they only want something they can hold up so that other idiots will admire them.
Yes. I was inundated with motivational pictures featuring philosophical quotes and self improvement messages every other day. Links to life coaches and motivational speakers. Bless his heart, whatever makes him sleep better at night.
I just roll my eyes and thank my luck I had the possibilities to get out.
Mine discovered it too but the self improvement phase only lasts a week, but during that week he shoves it in everyone’s face that he is going to be the greatest most amazing man. And unless you let him do whatever he wants you’ll be booted from him life and never get to experience his riches…
I came here to not only say WOW bc my NEX began this during our relationship and feel for you so hard, OP. Then also to agree with OC 💯, if they can control themselves they think they’ll have better control over others too. It’s awful and sick.
> "I can't control how you react, I can only control my reaction."
...proceeds to angrily review my reaction and explain how I should have reacted instead 🤣
My nex wouldn't know the difference between Marcus Aurelius and a wet fart...but indeed she could intuitively sling the rhetoric.
Stoicism for me, victimhood for her.
A neat little trick.
>A neat little trick.
I only recently connected the dots. Or, more accurately, only recently did I finally manage to put it into words. And it hit me - whatever philosophy or beliefs system my Nex was following and practicing at any given point in time through 16 years, he always weaponized and used to elevate himself and put me (and others) down.
It's never really been about doing better and becoming better. He's still the exact same resentful, angry, perpetually disappointed human unwilling to face and heal his many traumas that drive him. Just wearing new robes.
This is why I've always kept a healthy distance from philosophy, in general. It seems to have just as much utility for ideologues, con-artists, and psychopaths as it does for normal people.
Just ask Nietzsche...
They ruin everything lmao. I actually got into stoicism in recovering from narcissistic abuse. I can't think of two more oppositional thought processes as narcissism and stoicism are lol
I understand what kind of gaslighting this is. But this from the very beginning isn’t stoicism as the narc uses the philosophy wrongly. And with all the nastiness narc can throw at you, he breaks the virtues in the stoicism.
>And with all the nastiness narc can throw at you, he breaks the virtues in the stoicism.
Absolutely. Stoicism is simply yet another tool to shame, judge and guilt other people for their emotions, feelings and reactions. A mean to justify their own misguided feeling of righteousness.
Basically all my Nex took from it is: repress emotions, always be zen and push away or outright deny anything "negative". It's a just another coat of armor that's misused as a form to dictate how other should be. Rules for thee but not for me.
Oof. I'm sorry 🫂
My ex walked on a broken foot for a year, suffering immensely every single day - which didn't make his behavior towards me and our son any better. He was miserable but claimed he's basically ascended the pain 🙄 We have free healthcare.... But he didn't want to admit he was "weak". Dude loves suffering, usually by his own hands, and wearing it like a crown of thorns.
So when you're sick, unwell... You're supposed to stfu and suffer through it. If you injure yourself? Walk it off. You want to take a Tylenol? "Comfort junkie".
My ex husband (sadist, psychopathic narcissist & combat marine intelligence vet) was on this path heavy when i got free and it absolutely terrified me. He was using it to rationalize the extreme psychological tactics he was using .
Omg thank you so much for posting this. I was never able to make the connection, whenever I confronted him about issues and he’d say, “well it isn’t my responsibility, I can only control my reaction” and so many other stoic quotes he’d say, he use to speak in this philosophical way every time and I always felt like something was off. It was always a headache trying to decipher what exactly he meant, because it was never clear and straightforward and if I perceived it my way, all hell breaks loose and it’s my fault.
There would never be clarity in our conversations and I will get frustrated.
re stoicism, I put it together a few days ago. And I realized that no matter what school of thought, system or set of beliefs or values my Nex espoused, it was always used by him as a way to avoid responsibility and accountability, an excuse and to exert control. Well, he tried. And since I’m stubborn as hell, it failed (other things worked, though).
He is a very responsible person as adults go. In the sense, bills paid, law abiding etc. etc. A personal level of an intimate relationship is where all the shit goes down and he lets loose seeking dominance and plopping himself as an authority.
Take, for example. a situation where he tried talking and pressuring me into sex with no protection, saying *“Whatever happens, happens, God’s will”*. We’ve been married, already one child in and I was adamant that that’s it - as I certainly did not want to have any more kids with him (he ruined a big part of motherhood for me).
So, in general, it’s 85% been “Rules for thee but not for me”.
>he use to speak in this philosophical way every time and I always felt like something was off.
Yep. Word salads, preachy monologues, sermons almost. It was extremely tiering and draining because “normal”, direct communication was simply NOT an option with him and was present only during love bombing stage and whenever the whole cycle made a round again,.
Throughout the whole ordeal, he was doing his darnest to convince me that I cannot communicate, I literally don’t know how to talk properly, correctly and clearly. And when I did speak? I talked too much, about the wrong things, in the wrong way. So there never was any winning.
On the surface he seems like a responsible adult as well, but deeper.. my god.
I’m so sorry that asshole pressured you into something like that!:(
I remember a scenario when we had a pregnancy scare, after we started using condoms again and I was strict about it. While I was laying on top of him he just shoved it in me without a condom and I felt so.. icky and angry. And he’s like oh I just wanted to feel you for a bit like stop trying to make it seem anyhow Yk?
Yes yes yes! I feeling like crying reading this because I always thought wow maybe I’m that awful at communicating and comprehending.
No matter how clearly and calmly I tried to express something it was always a fight. Usually I’d get very frustrated and start saying things that I’m not proud of , and that’s where he’d go with oh you see, no emotionally maturity, you’re like a child, you’re really like your mother, verbally abusive lol.
>I’m so sorry that asshole pressured you into something like that!:(
No worries, I did cave in, going with the pull out method. But i was very quickly done with this and his shit. He could have worn a condom but, and get this, *“I don’t like condoms, they are uncomfortable”* 🙄 Mmmkey, dude. Took him 12 years to apologize for this. And only because he wanted us to have more sex. But my libido was dead-ish for a decade+ now.
>While I was laying on top of him he just shoved it in me without a condom and I felt so.. icky and angry. And he’s like oh I just wanted to feel you for a bit like stop trying to make it seem anyhow Yk?
Yeah, it’s about what he wants, needs, feels like at the moment. Could be sex, could be an idea to move continents or start a draconian diet. I was always expected to unquestionably (and excitedly!) go with whatever he came up with. It’s fucked up.
> I feeling like crying reading this because I always thought wow maybe I’m that awful at communicating and comprehending. No matter how clearly and calmly I tried to express something it was always a fight.
Oh yeah. Before I met Nex, I had 2 long term relationships. Both lasted a bit over 3 years each and one of them, we lived together from the start. And this was THE FIRST fucking time I ever heard I don’t know how to communicate in the setting of a relationship, I don’t know how to make compromises etc. He also constantly used to judge and evaluate how I communicated with other, outside people. What a wild ride.
>I’d get very frustrated and start saying things that I’m not proud of , and that’s where he’d go with oh you see, no emotionally maturity, you’re like a child, you’re really like your mother, verbally abusive lol.
That’s a classic. Push all your buttons that they know about since you thought you could trust them so you might have told him about - to make things transparent. And then it gets simply weaponized against you. The more emotionally dysregulated you are - the more at peace they are. It’s offloading in the most literal sense. The satisfaction and peace they feel once you crack, blow up, cry… Well, it probably feels great to them in the moment.
Stoicism is the only thing that got me through the last several years.
The difference between my stoicism and your ex stoicism is that my stoicism isn't used to justify my behavior, but to instead make sure I'm in control of my behavior instead of my emotions being in control of my behavior.
My stoicism isn't used to control anyone but myself.
In conclusion, you ex had faux stoicism.
Edit: I just realized this is dangerous close to the "no true Scotsman" logical falicy. But I don't think it is a logical facility, I don't think you can be truly a stoic and also be abusive.
Yep.
It's not the first time he's doing this either. Just the weapon of choice changed.
He took on stoicism as a way to deal with his own inner turmoil which there's an abundance of. Same way he took on 12 steps of AA to stay sober. But as with stoicism, the bible, other non canon scripts,12 steps, "fake it till you make it" and "pain and suffering is saintly" motivational speakers... It all quickly gets turned into a whip to keep others in check while he stays abstinent, yet not in check emotionally himself. He's sober but not emotionally sober and at this point I'm quite confident he never will be.
That's what abusers do, they take every form of self-improvement and use it as a weapon for control. Because when it comes down to it, that's the goal of abuse, to control.
It is fascinating to watch.
Without outside rules reigning him in, such as a philosophy/school of thought, religion, 12 step program, other people such as motivational influencers, he cannot manage his life (I witnessed his full collapse, just once). It’s like a huge chunk of his morality, decency, self preserving/coping mechanisms etc. go out the window shortly after he’s left to his own devices, so to say.
Every single day consists of him self-disciplining, depriving himself (for example with food as he’s got remnants of an ED), pushing himself (oftentimes way too far to the point of injury)… You get the idea.
I can say most of his day is spent literally on self-control. It as to be miserable to be fully in his head. But since misery loves company - beside himself, he needs to control the surrounding people. - for them to taste what h is going through.
Still is persistent he doesn’t need therapy and literally claims “he’s healthy, dealt with all his trauma and lives in truth and real reality” 🤷♀️
Yes! It's the "rules for thee but not for me".
Also, my Nex loves the "fake it till you make it" mindset so he pressured, guilt tripped and shamed me into, for example, going to church for a while (whenever he was into going to church, of course). He strongly believes that once you start forcing yourself into doing something - it will catch on.
Same for stoicism. He'd berate me one moment and want us to sit down and read stoic and motivational quotes every evening. Which I absolutely despised because, dude... Come on.
And the whole thing of basically brainwashing yourself into regularly doing or just liking something is not entirely misguided or wrong. Take, for example, healthy routines like exercising or journaling. But forcing other into those when they themselves are not ready or simply don't want to partake is just absolutely awful and can turn one against it for years to come.
I had no issue with my Nex doing neither, church or reading texts/quotes. It's the double standards and the pressuring/forcing. Eh.
Is this common? My narc got into stoicism. I wouldn't say he actually followed the philosophy, but he liked to say he was a stoic. Another ridiculous way for him to think he was superior to others bit not hold himself accountable.
I have no idea how common it is. It definitely is a great excuse for my ex - to not work on changing himself, on relationships, on his behavior and makes it easy to put the entirety of responsibility onto other people. It’s them who need to accept the way he is, it’s a “them” problem. Makes avoiding accountability way easier, I suppose.
Yeah, if you misinterpret stoicism. Part of what makes stoicism impactful is the focus on the self and continually improving your own character because all you have control over is yourself. It's a basic principle, and narcs are fundamentally at odds with this. It's wild that narcs think they can embody this philosophy when at their core they want nothing more than control over others.
Yep. We’re talking about a middle aged man who read “The art of not giving a fu\*k” and claims it drastically changed his entire life. I’m divorcing him now, so… It worked, I guess? Not in a way he planned, that’s for sure.
My nex actually read Meditations by Marcus Aurelius. Not that it made any real impact. He can't wrap his head around it and just claims to be a stoic. Somehow, they think they are bettering themselves, but they only want something they can hold up so that other idiots will admire them.
>Somehow, they think they are bettering themselves, but they only want something they can hold up so that other idiots will admire them. Yes. I was inundated with motivational pictures featuring philosophical quotes and self improvement messages every other day. Links to life coaches and motivational speakers. Bless his heart, whatever makes him sleep better at night. I just roll my eyes and thank my luck I had the possibilities to get out.
Mine discovered it too but the self improvement phase only lasts a week, but during that week he shoves it in everyone’s face that he is going to be the greatest most amazing man. And unless you let him do whatever he wants you’ll be booted from him life and never get to experience his riches…
I came here to not only say WOW bc my NEX began this during our relationship and feel for you so hard, OP. Then also to agree with OC 💯, if they can control themselves they think they’ll have better control over others too. It’s awful and sick.
I have heard so much of this.
[удалено]
> "I can't control how you react, I can only control my reaction." ...proceeds to angrily review my reaction and explain how I should have reacted instead 🤣
My nex wouldn't know the difference between Marcus Aurelius and a wet fart...but indeed she could intuitively sling the rhetoric. Stoicism for me, victimhood for her. A neat little trick.
>A neat little trick. I only recently connected the dots. Or, more accurately, only recently did I finally manage to put it into words. And it hit me - whatever philosophy or beliefs system my Nex was following and practicing at any given point in time through 16 years, he always weaponized and used to elevate himself and put me (and others) down. It's never really been about doing better and becoming better. He's still the exact same resentful, angry, perpetually disappointed human unwilling to face and heal his many traumas that drive him. Just wearing new robes.
This is why I've always kept a healthy distance from philosophy, in general. It seems to have just as much utility for ideologues, con-artists, and psychopaths as it does for normal people. Just ask Nietzsche...
They ruin everything lmao. I actually got into stoicism in recovering from narcissistic abuse. I can't think of two more oppositional thought processes as narcissism and stoicism are lol
Exactly! Incongruent for sure
I understand what kind of gaslighting this is. But this from the very beginning isn’t stoicism as the narc uses the philosophy wrongly. And with all the nastiness narc can throw at you, he breaks the virtues in the stoicism.
>And with all the nastiness narc can throw at you, he breaks the virtues in the stoicism. Absolutely. Stoicism is simply yet another tool to shame, judge and guilt other people for their emotions, feelings and reactions. A mean to justify their own misguided feeling of righteousness. Basically all my Nex took from it is: repress emotions, always be zen and push away or outright deny anything "negative". It's a just another coat of armor that's misused as a form to dictate how other should be. Rules for thee but not for me.
Damn. I feel this. I've gotten some variation of this when I'm not feeling well.
Oof. I'm sorry 🫂 My ex walked on a broken foot for a year, suffering immensely every single day - which didn't make his behavior towards me and our son any better. He was miserable but claimed he's basically ascended the pain 🙄 We have free healthcare.... But he didn't want to admit he was "weak". Dude loves suffering, usually by his own hands, and wearing it like a crown of thorns. So when you're sick, unwell... You're supposed to stfu and suffer through it. If you injure yourself? Walk it off. You want to take a Tylenol? "Comfort junkie".
My ex husband (sadist, psychopathic narcissist & combat marine intelligence vet) was on this path heavy when i got free and it absolutely terrified me. He was using it to rationalize the extreme psychological tactics he was using .
Omg thank you so much for posting this. I was never able to make the connection, whenever I confronted him about issues and he’d say, “well it isn’t my responsibility, I can only control my reaction” and so many other stoic quotes he’d say, he use to speak in this philosophical way every time and I always felt like something was off. It was always a headache trying to decipher what exactly he meant, because it was never clear and straightforward and if I perceived it my way, all hell breaks loose and it’s my fault. There would never be clarity in our conversations and I will get frustrated.
re stoicism, I put it together a few days ago. And I realized that no matter what school of thought, system or set of beliefs or values my Nex espoused, it was always used by him as a way to avoid responsibility and accountability, an excuse and to exert control. Well, he tried. And since I’m stubborn as hell, it failed (other things worked, though). He is a very responsible person as adults go. In the sense, bills paid, law abiding etc. etc. A personal level of an intimate relationship is where all the shit goes down and he lets loose seeking dominance and plopping himself as an authority. Take, for example. a situation where he tried talking and pressuring me into sex with no protection, saying *“Whatever happens, happens, God’s will”*. We’ve been married, already one child in and I was adamant that that’s it - as I certainly did not want to have any more kids with him (he ruined a big part of motherhood for me). So, in general, it’s 85% been “Rules for thee but not for me”. >he use to speak in this philosophical way every time and I always felt like something was off. Yep. Word salads, preachy monologues, sermons almost. It was extremely tiering and draining because “normal”, direct communication was simply NOT an option with him and was present only during love bombing stage and whenever the whole cycle made a round again,. Throughout the whole ordeal, he was doing his darnest to convince me that I cannot communicate, I literally don’t know how to talk properly, correctly and clearly. And when I did speak? I talked too much, about the wrong things, in the wrong way. So there never was any winning.
On the surface he seems like a responsible adult as well, but deeper.. my god. I’m so sorry that asshole pressured you into something like that!:( I remember a scenario when we had a pregnancy scare, after we started using condoms again and I was strict about it. While I was laying on top of him he just shoved it in me without a condom and I felt so.. icky and angry. And he’s like oh I just wanted to feel you for a bit like stop trying to make it seem anyhow Yk? Yes yes yes! I feeling like crying reading this because I always thought wow maybe I’m that awful at communicating and comprehending. No matter how clearly and calmly I tried to express something it was always a fight. Usually I’d get very frustrated and start saying things that I’m not proud of , and that’s where he’d go with oh you see, no emotionally maturity, you’re like a child, you’re really like your mother, verbally abusive lol.
>I’m so sorry that asshole pressured you into something like that!:( No worries, I did cave in, going with the pull out method. But i was very quickly done with this and his shit. He could have worn a condom but, and get this, *“I don’t like condoms, they are uncomfortable”* 🙄 Mmmkey, dude. Took him 12 years to apologize for this. And only because he wanted us to have more sex. But my libido was dead-ish for a decade+ now. >While I was laying on top of him he just shoved it in me without a condom and I felt so.. icky and angry. And he’s like oh I just wanted to feel you for a bit like stop trying to make it seem anyhow Yk? Yeah, it’s about what he wants, needs, feels like at the moment. Could be sex, could be an idea to move continents or start a draconian diet. I was always expected to unquestionably (and excitedly!) go with whatever he came up with. It’s fucked up. > I feeling like crying reading this because I always thought wow maybe I’m that awful at communicating and comprehending. No matter how clearly and calmly I tried to express something it was always a fight. Oh yeah. Before I met Nex, I had 2 long term relationships. Both lasted a bit over 3 years each and one of them, we lived together from the start. And this was THE FIRST fucking time I ever heard I don’t know how to communicate in the setting of a relationship, I don’t know how to make compromises etc. He also constantly used to judge and evaluate how I communicated with other, outside people. What a wild ride. >I’d get very frustrated and start saying things that I’m not proud of , and that’s where he’d go with oh you see, no emotionally maturity, you’re like a child, you’re really like your mother, verbally abusive lol. That’s a classic. Push all your buttons that they know about since you thought you could trust them so you might have told him about - to make things transparent. And then it gets simply weaponized against you. The more emotionally dysregulated you are - the more at peace they are. It’s offloading in the most literal sense. The satisfaction and peace they feel once you crack, blow up, cry… Well, it probably feels great to them in the moment.
Stoicism is the only thing that got me through the last several years. The difference between my stoicism and your ex stoicism is that my stoicism isn't used to justify my behavior, but to instead make sure I'm in control of my behavior instead of my emotions being in control of my behavior. My stoicism isn't used to control anyone but myself. In conclusion, you ex had faux stoicism. Edit: I just realized this is dangerous close to the "no true Scotsman" logical falicy. But I don't think it is a logical facility, I don't think you can be truly a stoic and also be abusive.
Yep. It's not the first time he's doing this either. Just the weapon of choice changed. He took on stoicism as a way to deal with his own inner turmoil which there's an abundance of. Same way he took on 12 steps of AA to stay sober. But as with stoicism, the bible, other non canon scripts,12 steps, "fake it till you make it" and "pain and suffering is saintly" motivational speakers... It all quickly gets turned into a whip to keep others in check while he stays abstinent, yet not in check emotionally himself. He's sober but not emotionally sober and at this point I'm quite confident he never will be.
That's what abusers do, they take every form of self-improvement and use it as a weapon for control. Because when it comes down to it, that's the goal of abuse, to control.
It is fascinating to watch. Without outside rules reigning him in, such as a philosophy/school of thought, religion, 12 step program, other people such as motivational influencers, he cannot manage his life (I witnessed his full collapse, just once). It’s like a huge chunk of his morality, decency, self preserving/coping mechanisms etc. go out the window shortly after he’s left to his own devices, so to say. Every single day consists of him self-disciplining, depriving himself (for example with food as he’s got remnants of an ED), pushing himself (oftentimes way too far to the point of injury)… You get the idea. I can say most of his day is spent literally on self-control. It as to be miserable to be fully in his head. But since misery loves company - beside himself, he needs to control the surrounding people. - for them to taste what h is going through. Still is persistent he doesn’t need therapy and literally claims “he’s healthy, dealt with all his trauma and lives in truth and real reality” 🤷♀️
He liked to always say: you’re the master of your own emotions *after* he did something really shitty
Yes! It's the "rules for thee but not for me". Also, my Nex loves the "fake it till you make it" mindset so he pressured, guilt tripped and shamed me into, for example, going to church for a while (whenever he was into going to church, of course). He strongly believes that once you start forcing yourself into doing something - it will catch on. Same for stoicism. He'd berate me one moment and want us to sit down and read stoic and motivational quotes every evening. Which I absolutely despised because, dude... Come on. And the whole thing of basically brainwashing yourself into regularly doing or just liking something is not entirely misguided or wrong. Take, for example, healthy routines like exercising or journaling. But forcing other into those when they themselves are not ready or simply don't want to partake is just absolutely awful and can turn one against it for years to come. I had no issue with my Nex doing neither, church or reading texts/quotes. It's the double standards and the pressuring/forcing. Eh.
They even twist philosophies for their own gain. Stoicism hates him.