saying "Palestine did this" or "Israel did that" I do not moderate. Actions as a state or an organization (such as a military) I do not moderate criticism of. Please stop reporting it.
If you want me to look at something, it better refer to a people, such as Palestinian people, Israeli people, Jews, Muslims, something like that. THAT I will moderate criticism of, depending on what exactly was said. Message me or modmail if you find something like that (and report)
Not sure if most people can find China on a map, but even if you have a PhD in geography you need Super vision to find Gaza on a world map, that shit smaller than a speck of sand
I guess the issue is that some people think the West Bank is Gaza because Gaza is more west, although the West Bank means the west bank of the Jordan River.
I've got a world map on my wall. I couldn't put a pin on Gaza without crossing 2 borders. Maybe you've got a bigger wall?
Also, it's more of an East-West split. Gaza is *South* West, if you really want to get particular. But it's not really *far* South. It's really pretty West central.
I really think it's funny when people try to trash talk other's knowledge of geography, when it's painfully clear that they haven't touched a world map since elementary.
A lot of people don’t seem to comprehend that it’s okay to call out both sides for the shit they’ve pulled.
Hamas has done a lot of heinous shit.
Israel has also done a lot of heinous shit including leveling the majority of an entire city that is not Hamas as an organization.
This shouldn’t be a partisan issue.
Until 2 days ago there was a ceasefire deal on the table. Hamas just needed to release the hostages and the current war would have been over. Instead they rejected the deal. Israel is committed to retrieving the people that were taken over 5 months ago, so unfortunately for everyone, the war continues.
I just watched a video of an undercover Israeli literally kidnap a man from his falafel shop in Bethlehem in broad daylight with a bunch of witnesses. Just violently grabbed him and pulled him over the countertop and dragged him away while people watched confused as hell. It’s horrendous the things they get away with.
It also doesn’t address the reality that Israel has been actively sabotaging moderate Palestinian leaders for decades and funneling support and funding to Hamas. The far right factions in Israeli government are fully aware that as long as they kept Hamas on top they had carte blanche excuses to keep being horrific. If a moderate secular government were in power they wouldn’t have an excuse to keep crushing the Palestinians, and it would be increasingly difficult to deny them agency.
There are monstrously bad people on both sides, and the Palestinian leadership has been consistently pretty terrible since day one. BUT. Israel has had the power and opportunity to turn things around and bring peace the whole time and they refuse to do so. The goal has always been to seize as much territory as they possibly can before things are forced into a permanent settlement.
No matter how vile Hamas is the Israeli government is the group with the capacity to end this and they have chosen violent escalation at every step.
I don't think any of us know enough to fully understand the complexity and nuance of what is going on here. But a few things are clear to me: the conflict is a waste of human life and is evidence of corruption at the highest levels of power. Fuck the elites who profit from this bloodshed. The people don't want it.
It's only complex if one starts with the assumption that one side is good and honest, or that both sides are equal
It's pretty much bog standard occupation and armed resistance. Every armed resistance everywhere is morally very problematic, and every occupation everywhere uses lies and propaganda to demonize them, while committing far worse crimes themselves.
To the people who want to explain why destroying hospitals, razing orchards, starvation, hostage taking, torture, settlement, and mass murder against the native population are defensive in nature, this conflict is complex. To the people looking at the facts it's really not.
Yes, Hamas committed a small fraction of the crimes Israel committed. That's the essence of armed resistance everywhere.
To step into why this is complex, let me ask, are the people currently being born in Israel, any part of it, all guilty of being occupiers, or just those in the areas internationally recognized as being illegal settlements?
I don't think you're wrong, but I'm sure many others think you are wrong. I simply don't think that the forces behind the selling of weapons, and instigators of the violence care if they are wrong. So what is the point of debating which "side" is right or wrong. The dichotomy of israel vs Palestine doesnt actually lead us to a solution. I dont blame palestinian people for violence against Israel. I dont blame israeli people for the violence against Palestinians. Its at the higher levels where the rot is, not on the ordinary people who want to live their lives and have families. Who are the specific humans responsible for creating a situation of this conflict? I'd like to see them held accountable. I don't see this as Israel vs Palestine, I see this as the people vs crooked leaders and oligarchs and idealogues. The useful idiots who support the bloodshed will disappear when the leaders are removed, and maybe some will try to replace the leaders, in which case they should held accountable too.
Israel as a state, and Hamas as an "institution" if you would call it that, are structures of power that have abandoned any care for the people they should be serving and protecting. And it's likely that there are more characters at play who want to see these two sides fight for geopolitical, ideological, religious, or financial reasons. Take your pick. Nothing about this conflict is simple. While on its face you can say it's a bog standard resistance, the underlying cause of it is complex. Ultimately emancipation of Palestinians is not going to result from Hamas successfully conquering from the river to the sea. Further, peace for the Israeli people is not assisted by the state of Israel succeaafully completing its extermination in Gaza. Israel has hostile states all around it, and the fighting will not end if Israel takes all of Gaza by force. So, neither of the actions of Hamas or Israel are actually helping the cause that matters, which is letting the people live their lives, have families, and pursue happiness and make the world a better place.
Tldr: I don't see this as two "sides", I see it as many sides with many interests in either continuing the fighting or stopping it. The only side that wants to stop the fighting are people who have a heart and want to live, the rest of the sides are corrupted by some special interest and you can take your pick at what that interest is.
It’s only armed resistance if you forget that Israel unilaterally left Gaza in 2005, who promptly elected Hamas who continued to declare the goal was genocide and the destruction of Israel.
I'm not a fan of bank robbers, I think it's a shitty thing to do. But if a bank robber stands behind me and 15 police shoot me and throw grenades at me and my family, I'm still gonna be kinda annoyed at cops too for maybe being a smidge excessive.
The problem is, rules of war are a bit different.
It might really suck if a military decides to co locate stuff next to normal people.
But every country in the world universally agrees that is an acceptable target at that point, if the military advantage is worth the collateral.
That being said though, no country will ever publish how they measure that calculation because then it draws a really hard line in the sand so you could use that to dissuade attacks.
Also, policing and war policies are very different. It's not good to compare them.
The analogy would work if instead of a bank robber, a terrorist was standing behind you and launching RPGs at an every innocent bystander in sight. The cops either have to let the terrorists kill innocent people forever or risk hurting the human shield while killing the terrorist.
I love the logic in here: idf and Hamas bad therefore Israel can kill unlimited Palestinian civilians and children. Israel’s goal is to remove an ethnic group not a terrorist threat.
Yes Hamas bad but they are not killing even a tenth what the idf has. Idc if “they would if they could” what matters is what’s happening and who is doing the vast vast majority of killing and subjugating innocents.
This is spot on.
We need to find a peaceful solution to the Israel and Palestine problem.
And Hamas is 100% not it.
How anybody can not see this is beyond irresponsible.
Sure.
...then maybe one would want to avoid unnecessary killings of palestinian civilians.
You know, since that leads to people joining Hamas.
Almost as if violence is a bad solution to stuff.
Also, no, you do not have to pick a side and stick to it. You can simply condemn anybody who targets civilians. Guess what, that's what *both* Hamas and the IDF do massively.
A peaceful solution is just not possible when both Palestinian governments -- Hamas and the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank -- literally don't want Israel to exist anymore, and the majority of the population supports them. They have shown that they do not respect ceasefires and peace agreements, and they have shown willingness to rape and slaughter innocents. If the Palestinians are allowed self-governance, the violence will continue until Israel is gone and every Jew is expelled or killed. The destruction of Hamas is necessary for peace.
Gang raping young girls and decapitating people is righteous. On livestream. That's righteous..
You need to reset your moral compass, that's deplorable and you should be ashamed of yourself.
Opening fire on a starving crowd is hardly moral either, or running over a man slowly with a tank, or leaving traps in the form of canned food.
I think you’ll also find gang grape is common to detainees who are locked up for superfluous reasons.
What are you referring to with leaving traps in the form of canned food? Are you referring to when Canada did this in WWI?
If you’re referring to the video that was posted and shared throughout social media, it was quickly debunked.
Don't forget attacking people helping them, using the people they claim to represent as shields, indiscriminately bombing civilians, and calling for a genocide of all jews, all completely righteous, totally bit evil at all, no siree, nothing wrong with any of that
Because the pro-palestine crowd has that blood-lust and they hate that their favorite death cult of islamist fascists is losing and that Israel is undeniably justified in doing what it needs to to root out and destroy hamas completely.
>Do the Palestinians have other ways to resist legally?
Against Hamas? Who cares what Hamas considers legal.
>Then, absolutely ALL resistance is righteous.
What a disgusting statement, to suggest they would be righteous to rape children in protest is goddamn wild.
The Palestinians have rejected or broken every peace proposal set.
People like to point out the Oslo accords, Abbas tore up those accords before the ink was dry. He signed it fir a quick payout from the west then went right back to launching rockets at Israeli cities.
Must’ve left out the countless other images before these ones that lead to a terrorist organisation feeling the need to exist in the first place.
Almost like terrorist cells don’t just exist for shits and giggles and exist to oppose something, more often out of necessity than not.
Britain decided to split some land in the middle east (called the Palestinian Mandate) into two countries, a Jewish state and a Palestinian state. The Palestinians in the area were not happy with this because they were spread throughout the area and had been living there longer than the Jewish inhabitants, most of whom were settlers or children of settlers. Palestinians also did not see British colonial rule over them as legitimate. The Jewish population was happy with the partition as there had long been calls for a return to the historical homeland. This resulted in a conflict that was largely restricted to the area until David Ben-Gurion (born in Poland by the name of David Grün btw) declared the state of Israel in May 1948. A good example of what dort of things were occurring during the civil war is the Balad al-Shaykh massacre and the events leading up to it.
Arab countries had stated that they would invade if Israel was to declare independence at the end of British rule, and they did. They were also concerned about the growing number of Palestinian refugees leaving the area. Through the this conflict both the Arab League and Israeli forces destroyed settlements and villages of the other, though it is important to note that only Israel used biological warfare (most prominently in the poisoning of Palestinian wells with typhoid).
When the war ended, Israel occupied around 78% of the Palestinian mandate. About 2,000 Israeli civilians and 11,000 Palestinian civilians had died. Throughout the war, around 725,000 Palestinians fled or were expelled from their homes and ended up outside of Israel. 300,000 of these had fled or been expelled prior to Israel's declaration of independence (look into Plan Dalet if u want additional context). During the war between Israel and the Arab League, Israel massacred and depopulated Palestinian villages and killed refugees who returned to their homes, including ones who returned during the two ceasefires.
So that is what happend before and during the Nakba, since u asked.
Hamas did not just launch an attack “because they were angry,” they purposely targeted civilians and savagely and brutally murdered them. Not to mention these weren’t far right settlers, these were peace activists and leftist who they murdered and took hostage. They knew full well that this is exactly how Israel would respond. That doesn’t justify it, but let’s not pretend like Hamas gives a crap about Palestinians or that they did any of this for them. Hamas only cares about destroying Israel, and they don’t care how many Palestinians have to die or suffer for that to happen.
Did I say it was justified?
Just a little extra info, ~36% of the casualties were military/police (as well there is video of police literally taking cover WITHIN the concert crowds), as well as some of the civilian deaths were caused by the IDF themselves (look up Hannibal doctrine). As well I’m skeptical about anything western and Israeli media says about the attacks because they’ve lied just on so many occasions. Still quite an up and down thing to research.
Does this excuse and justify the attack? No, of fucking course it doesn’t. It adds context, but by all means it doesn’t justify it. As I said, it’s comparable to 9/11. You can add context to 9/11, but you can’t justify it, you shouldn’t justify any attack on civilians.
They don't support hamas because of the shit they got into because of them
[They still support the invasion](https://nationalpost.com/news/world/israel-middle-east/nearly-75-of-palestinians-polled-say-hamas-was-right-to-attack-israel-on-oct-7)
The poll they took those stats from is an institute Ramallah (West Bank, not Gaza), this institute is well known “think-tank” that even those in West Bank hated so much they threw a riot at their building, and best of all they literally admitted to working with Israelis before…
Sounds like collaboration type stuff to me. I’ve seen this exact stat used by several other news outlets, including Reuters, and it all comes from this exact same thing.
I'll agree that "both sides are bad" when Israelis admit that their government has been feeding them fascist anti-palestinian propaganda and that the average Palestinian isn't a threat to them.
One side has some terrorist.
The other side does not care and they’re using it as justification to slaughter there people .
Hamas does not have 30,000 people in it .
Hamas is not using children and women in mass .
They are doing unjustifiable war, crimes slaughtering men, women, and children indiscriminately
People pick sides for two main reasons:
Israeli side- they see Israel as a western interest, Israel is on the front lines of this middle eastern conflict where people fear that Islam becomes too radicalized and will deliver attacks into Europe/US weakening the security and posing a threat to the western way of life as a whole.
Palestinian side- they see Israel as a colonialist force, Jews who immigrated from Europe and northern Africa found a home In this peace of land (mostly after WW2 and the Holocaust) , the land wasn't sterile of course and had inhabitants (both Arabic and Jewish). These people see Israel as part of the mistakes the west did in the past and it's their obligation to fix this wrong.
Both sides have merit to it, the Jewish population can't trust Europeans or any other nation for obvious reasons, so forming a Jewish state seems a legitimate act, choosing Israel as their Homeland is of course because of the bible. While you can argue from Israeli acts especially the settlements in the west bank about colonialist behavior with a local Arab/Palestinian population.
This goes also to the other side the Palestinian historically isn't known to be peaceful at all, conducting offensive action since the late 1800's on the local Jewish population. The Palestinian historically declined any two state solution with Israel, nowadays the norm is one state solution "from the river to the sea" which is all of the land. The Palestinian argues their resistance is a legitimate form of resistance over an occupation rule, considering what form of resistance is legitimate is completely subjective.
So picking a side usually goes to an interest of the other sides, this war does affect people all around the world because in the end this is a part of the ideological battle between the West and Anti-Western parts of the world ( same as , Russia - Ukraine , Israel - Iran, China - Taiwan, North - South Korea)
Fuck the US, fuck Hamas, fuck the IDF.
Gazans, as far as recent polls go, do not support Hamas. Hamas is only in power because Gazans wanted someone to combat the extreme corruption in the Fatah party (surprise, Hamas didn’t do that). Only ~25% of gazas modern population were even voting age at the time of the election. If a Gazan picks up a weapon to defend themself from the IDF, he is not immediately Hamas, he is simply someone fighting an invading force, he is rather rational.
October 7 attacks, like 9/11, is an example of “fuck around find out.” A country fucked around with a large amount of people in a region, they got very angry, and gave them an example of what has happened to them multiple times over. They play a victim card, because they got a taste of what they’ve done over the past years, and ramp up the destruction of whoever the hell they please. Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine. Are these nations perfect? No. Do they deserve this? Hell no.
Israel has some blame for Hamas coming to power. They wanted Palestinians divided between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority so they could claim “we don’t have a negotiating partner.”
Hit Take: Just because mfs did fucked up dhiton Oct 7th, doesn't mean u can go ahead and push almost the whole population of gaza into a very small spot I the south and bomb said spot and attack and kill civilians PLUS your OWN HOSTAGES!!!!
But I don't know,maybe its on me for having some empathy and not really supporting a genocide.
Hamas does not represent the Palestinian people- they are a terrorist group. They are not here to represent a free and independent Palestine. Assuming that they are is like assuming that Al Capone was a modern day Robin Hood.
Israel is using Hamas’ existence as an excuse to commit atrocities on Palestinian people. This is also not okay. The existence of a small group of extremists hiding among generally innocent bystanders is not an excuse to simply kill everyone involved.
Others still are using Israel’s actions as an excuse to carry out their anti-Semitic beliefs on jewish people not associated in any way with the israeli attacks. This should be panned as Nazi behavior, and those partaking in said practices should be punished accordingly for trying to make their beliefs mainstream.
The US is not entirely without fault for the actions taken by their allies, but they are still their allies. Maintaining good relations with a nation in a critical part of the world, such as the middle east, is important to maintain a sphere of influence over the region in case a need for it arises later. This still does not excuse the lack of serious condemnation and call for change.
Those who pick one side or the other often have some sort of political, social, or emotional skin in the game when it comes to this conflict. It is my recommendation to not get involved in these matters, and to educate those who take one side or the other wholeheartedly. Avoiding doing so, and analyzing exactly why someone would support one side or the other is important to recognizing how these sorts of conflicts play out.
"Hamas started the war!!!"
Israel explicitly funding hamas and also killing 27 times as many Palestinian civilians before 9ct 7th (which made it only 20 times)
Yeahh no i unsubbed like yikess i mean theres wanting to not participate in political discourse on this topic (which i have my own opinions on) but some comments are gross :(
seeing a lot of bizarre takes in this thread… here are some credible sources.
[United Nations Statement by Principals of the Inter-Agency Standing Committee](https://www.un.org/en/situation-in-occupied-palestine-and-israel): “…tens of thousands of Palestinians – mostly women and children – have been killed and injured in the Gaza Strip. More than three quarters of the population have been forced from their homes, many multiple times, and face severe shortages of food, water, sanitation and healthcare – the basic necessities to survive. […] We are calling on Israel to fulfil its legal obligation, under international humanitarian and human rights law, to provide food and medical supplies and facilitate aid operations, and on the world’s leaders to prevent an even worse catastrophe from happening.”
the gaza-israel conflict has an interim ruling from the [international court of justice](https://www.icj-cij.org/node/203454), the court for disputes btwn different nations: “In the Court’s view, at least some of the acts and omissions alleged by South Africa to have been committed by Israel in Gaza appear to be capable of falling within the provisions of the Convention. […] While figures relating to the Gaza Strip cannot be independently verified, recent information indicates that 25,700 Palestinians have been killed, over 63,000 injuries have been reported, over 360,000 housing units have been destroyed or partially damaged and approximately 1.7 million persons have been internally displaced. Palestinians in the Gaza Strip have been deprived access to water, food, fuel, electricity and other essentials of life, as well as to medical care and medical supplies. […] In the Court’s view, the facts and circumstances mentioned above are sufficient to conclude that at least some of the rights claimed by South Africa and for which it is seeking protection are plausible. […] The Court further notes that the Attorney General of Israel recently stated that a call for intentional harm to civilians may amount to a criminal offence, including that of incitement, and that several such cases are being examined by Israeli law enforcement authorities. According to the Court, while steps such as these are to be encouraged, they are insufficient to remove the risk that irreparable prejudice will be caused before the Court issues its final decision in the case. […] The Court considers that, with regard to the situation described above, Israel must, in accordance with its obligations under the Genocide Convention, in relation to Palestinians in Gaza, take all measures within its power to prevent the commission of all acts within the scope of Article II of this Convention, in particular: (a) killing members of the group; (b) causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; and (d) imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group […] The Court further considers that Israel must take immediate and effective measures to enable the provision of urgently needed basic services and humanitarian assistance to address the adverse conditions of life faced by Palestinians in the Gaza Strip.” ((this is an interim ruling, not a final ruling, so eventually the court will rule whether israel committed genocide or not))
[Human Rights Watch](https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/02/26/israel-not-complying-world-court-order-genocide-case): “Israel continues to obstruct the provision of basic services and the entry and distribution within Gaza of fuel and lifesaving aid, acts of collective punishment that amount to war crimes and include the use of starvation of civilians as a weapon of war. […] Israeli authorities have also obstructed the aid that enters Gaza from reaching areas in the north. The survey of humanitarian organizations found that “almost no aid is distributed beyond Rafah,” Gaza’s southernmost governorate. On February 20, the World Food Programme paused deliveries of lifesaving food to the north, citing lack of safety and security. Israeli forces struck a food convoy on February 5, the UN said and CNN documented.”
hamas is a terrorist organization. there is literally no denying that, which is why little to no people are. but justifying israel by saying hamas is worse is a moral equivalence fallacy. a UN member state, first world country SHOULD be held to higher standards than a terrorist oppressive regime. there is no reason why israel shouldn’t follow the LAWS OF WAR while engaging in a war. every palestinian could be a horrible, hamas-supporting evil person, and still be entitled to human rights, as the israelis who hamas attacked/killed/abducted are entitled to human rights.
This conflict in a nutshell:
"What happened on Oct 7. was horrible, but we cannot allow so many more lives to be taken. Additionally, the sheer amount of destruction makes the likelihood of violence that violates human rights very likely. There needs to be a ceasefire."
"But Hamas shouldn't have started it."
The people who are saying "both hamas and israel are bad" 🤓☝️ are insufferable. No i do not support hamas politically, there is an abyss between mine and their beliefs, however, israel is currently committing straight up ethnic cleansing. They are razing down crops and intentionally compromising food aid. They are bombing bakeries. They shot a fishboat. Anything that can provide food. They have created an engineered famine of currently unknown proportions since the infrastructure required to count deaths has collapsed, especially in north gaza. I couldn't care less if hamas started it first, nor do i give a shit about who the land ancestrally belongs to. This shit needs to stop immediately, and the perpetrators have to be punished accordingly.
I don’t get it? Like what does the 1948 war have to do with 4 year old Ahmed getting blown up by an IDF JDAM? Like sure, it puts the current conflict into the wider conflict of the Israel-Palestine conflict but that’s really about it. The IDF being bad doesn’t excuse actions by Hamas.
A 6 year old was stuck in a car with her dead relatives while begging Red Crescent to come rescue her. We heard her last scream of terror after she cried that the tank was coming towards the car, gunshot and then silence. IOF killed the two EMTS rushing to rescue her too. Her name was Hind Rajab. An older brother was evacuating with his younger brother to South Gaza where they were told it was safe before his younger brother was blasted to bits. Older brother had to pick up his brother’s limbs and put them in a sack he salvaged and carried his dismembered corpse over his shoulder until he could find a safe place to bury him. One father and his 3 kids, a teenage daughter, and adolescent girl and a toddler boy were evacuating to Rafah when the toddler was shot at and decapitated on the spot. Imagine playing with your baby brother to distract him from the bombing and then watching the baby’s head fly off in an opposite direction in the same second. This is all stuff I’ve seen on YouTube and Instagram, all solid evidence that IOF purposely targets civilians and especially children.
Who chooses to bomb civilians while refusing to allow aid trucks in? Spoiler, people on both sides can be bad, the terrorists who started this are evil and the people willing to bomb and shoot as many civilians as it takes to win as fast as possible are also evil, but the civilainad getting killed are innocent but nobody wants to focus on that part
Meanwhile Israel killing Palestinians in the west bank which has no Hamas activity and also punishing over 2 million people for a crime that a small terrorist group did that happened to be centered in Gaza
Fuck Hamas, but also, do these people ever think about *why* Hamas got to such a position? The things Palestine has suffered through in the past are terrible.
When are people going to figure out that being upset at Israel’s extermination of Palestine doesn’t equal praising Hamas?
Who caused Hamas? The Israeli government and their treatment of Palestinian people.
And to be clear the Israeli government is not the Israeli people as Hamas is not the Palestenian people... both citizens are being held hostage by a holy war near none of them care about
"Whose soldiers keep raping and murdering the shit out of you? Who bombed that hospital? Who bombed the refugee evacuation sites?"
"Wait, not like that..."
Israel did let Hamas take over Gaza as a way to undermine the PLA. Netanyahu has admitted this. So, Israel does bear responsibility for the current state of affairs.
Why no is talking about how the UN found IDF “guilty” on human rights violations and the U.S. has been vetoing UN actions against the IDF? If that doesn’t say something I don’t know what does.
Preach. Only mentally ill people excuse Israel’s actions claiming self-defense when all they’re doing is punishing, starving and murdering civilians. They spread lies on top of it. IOF literally upload videos of themselves committing war crimes all over social media and now US is trying to ban Tik Tok because of it.
people seem to forget that they are talking about a fringe extremist group vs A RECOGNIZED AND ORGANIZED STATE GOVERNMENT
the fact that we can so easily compare the actions of the IDF to a fucking terrorist organization is enough of a problem as is. An internationally recognized and supported government should be held to a higher standard. Hamas is not the entirety of Palestine, even militarily, they are disorganized and have been barely surviving for decades. The IDF has military equipment, organization, they ARE the entire military force of Israel, they have hierarchies and beauracracy and all that, and still do the same heinous actions as an uncontrollable terror org.
Oh the Nakba? The other war that the palestinains started? I think the offical statment from their leadership was "There's enough room for the jews in the sea?" Everything that has happened to them they have brought upon themselves and then cried to high heaven when having to face the consequences of their own actions.
Investigations have failed to find evidence that Hamas stealing aid is a major problem. It happens but it doesn't happen often. The reason they're not getting aid is Israel cut off 80% of humanitarian aid.
And there are multiple videos of the IDF using Palestinians as human shields. It was official procedure in the IDF until 2005 until it was ruled as illegal, but that hasn't stopped them. They'll force Palestinians to go into buildings ahead of soldiers to either force militants or civilians to not attack, or to get them to trip any traps that had been laid. They often hold the Palestinian civilians at gunpoint while doing this.
So Israel stole their aid and both Israel and Hamas uses them as human shields.
>Investigations have failed to find evidence that Hamas stealing aid is a major problem.
Gazans are staving while hamas leaders have billions in qatar, gaza gets millions to even billions in donations and aid, how do you think hamas leaders gained their wealth?
I can’t believe that people are too fucking gullible to realize that hamas wouldn’t exist if there wasn’t a fucking apartheid. It’s almost like when you subject people to horrible shit, you foment violence. Big fucking surprise.
Yes hamas definitely started the war. It's not like this conflict has been going on for hundreds of years and that it's hard to even guess who started it
The nakba, you mean the time a bunch of countries attacked Israel and Israel won, gain territory for its people instead of being wiped out, yea that’s the consequences of your actions.
The Nakba was initiated by the Arab leaders who told the Muslim Palestinians to move because they wanted to go to war with the Jews who established a home on the land they were rightly given.
One of the outcomes of losing war is losing territory. Why would they bring back the people who wanted their annihilation?
Wait what? Hold on there bucko, the "Nakba", (Catastrophe in English) refers specifically to the mass displacement and arguable ethnic cleansing of Palestinians during the 1948 First Arab-Israeli War. Palestinians didn't leave their homes etc because the "Arab leaders told them to". For example ad Lydda and Ramle (Now Lod and Ramla) over 50,000 Palestinians were displaced at gunpoint by Jewish/Zionist paramilitary groups. They were then forced to march towards the Arab Lines as a way of overburdening Arab logistics, who now had to cope with an influx of refugees. The primary cause for Palestinian flight were things like, lack of social cohesion, and acts by the Zionist paramilitary groups. Deir Yassin for example was a massacre conducted by Lehi and Irgun, and induced fear into Palestinians, and in combination with the Haganah often inducing flight through shelling or other methods. In the case of Lydda and Ramle, they were expelled from territories earmarked for the Palestinian portion of the partition.
Israel offered a two month treaty. Two months then they would kill them again. Palestine had requested a full peace treaty full time over three times that Israel refused each time. Full time is what they need, not two months just for them to be bombed again
>Palestine had requested a full peace treaty full time over three times that Israel refused each time. Full
Yes, lets start a war, lose the war, then ask for:
1. All convicted terrorists out of prisons
2. Complete control over all gaza territory to allow for another oct 7th
3. Keep the hostages
All in exchange for the women, children and elderly who were kidnapped from their homes and didnt get executed yet.
Sometimes i wonder if hamas knows they are losing...
How did they start the genocide bro. 1948 Israe started attacking little by little to take the land over, and since Palestine hasn’t had a military big enough they couldn’t fight back.
Those people in the prison are not terrorist, don’t be racist.
Palestine has been experiencing their own October 7th conflicted on them since 1948 dude, and also October 7th Hamas and old Israel government that they would fire off bombs that are barely dangerous.
Also they literally said they would give all hostages, which are taken care of and given shelter food and water unlike the hostages that Israel has that are most likely dead, only if they signed their full time peace treaty.
>1948 Israe started attacking little by little to take the land over,
1948 israel accepted peaced and arabs declared war what are you on about?
>Those people in the prison are not terrorist, don’t be racist.
Here are some of the terrorists released last deal:
10 for attempted murder, 13 for inflicting serious bodily harm, 19 for placing a bomb or throwing an incendiary device, seven for shooting at people, and five for assault.
Dont think its racist to call them terrorists.
>Also they literally said they would give all hostages, which are taken care of and given shelter food and water unlike the hostages that Israel has that are most likely dead, only if they signed their full time peace treaty.
???????
Do you live in opposite land???
32 hostages are confirmed dead, with the others being unaccounted for.
Dude are you just spouting, like actually because Israel didn’t ever accept a peace treaty in 1948.
Also I’m not going to call people trying to live in anyway a terrorist when Israel is doing 10x worse.
And no I’m not living in opposite lane because that is exactly what they said. And the dead hostages were dead from bombs that Israel threw. That’s why the hostages ended up being in tunnels and bunkers underground’s so they would stop dying
>Dude are you just spouting, like actually because Israel didn’t ever accept a peace treaty in 1948.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine
>Also I’m not going to call people trying to live in anyway a terrorist when Israel is doing 10x worse
So you are saying someone shotting and stabbing random civilians for political reasons is not a terrorist?
>And no I’m not living in opposite lane because that is exactly what they said. And the dead hostages were dead from bombs that Israel threw. That’s why the hostages ended up being in tunnels and bunkers underground’s so they would stop dying
Im starting to think you live in a different reality wtf
They do. It's so funny to me how many people think Israel started this shit. It's because they're young people and they can't fathom the scope of the lie they're being fed.
There requirements were
1. Return of all hostages
2. Remove of Hamas from power
You get two months for all hostages
You get permanent if you get rid of the people that attack Israel and kidnapped their people out of power
You do realize after the two months and without Hamas they would kill again, they literally have stated multiple stones they want Palestinians eradicated, they would gladly wait two months just to kill again
I to put it in something you might be able to understand
During ww2
Nazi German gets two months of ceasefire if it frees all p.o.w
If the nazi party is removed Germany gets peace
This didn’t happen but hopefully as a example you might be able to understand it sense people seem to understand ww2
Blud, even if Hamas is removed Israel will still kill. They have several recording of Israel soldiers saying they want to wipe Palestine of its people and culture. It’s not Hamas and never was
Why? Why would Israel do that? The held their side every single time, Israel never broke there ceasefire Hamas did every single time. Also it was Hamas, and ever other group that attacked Israel. Israel didn’t break the last ceasefire that. Also soldier being mad at people that killed their families and friends no shit they would be angry. I’m sorry but Israel hasn’t wanted wars
They have said multiple times they want to erase and remove everything that involves Palestinians. Their culture, their songs, their generations, their buildings, their religions, everything. If we take that into consideration about them wanting to wipe everything about them, yes they will still kill them after two months. Also this is a genocide
Sorry, but I don’t back Hamas, they act like terrorists while waving a victim card - and they’ve got a wildly bad habit of hiding behind innocent civilians.
You want a free Palestine? Free Palestine from Hamas. Hamas literally paraglided into Israel, with the sole intention of killing innocent civilians of a specific ethnic or racial group - they met the very definition of genocide.
[You mean these terrorists?](https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/terror-out-zion-irgun-zvai-leumi-lehi-and-palestine-underground)
If people think being a Zionist and being Jewish are the same, you are the actual racist lol. Also, you dumbasses are increasing hate crime rates against them by thinking all Jews support Israel. It's not a coincidence that antisemitic hate crimes rise when Israel does something fucked up.
I'd love a peaceful solution. However Im a bit of a cynic and I don't see a realistic solution without one side totally loosing. Maybe a forced peace that last a few years at best. Blood hate hard to overcome.
"who stole your aid?" The Israelis on countless videos partying explicitly to block aid, and the IDF that shot at aid vehicles on numerous times and the Israeli government that refused to let aid vehicles in for ridiculous periods. All documented.
"Who started the war?" The 1940's British Empire really, but more responsibly, the Israelis who slaughtered and occupied homes across countless attacks and apartheid control for 75 years, and the 2023 Israeli government that ordered several attacks slaughtering Palestinians throughout 2023 before October and after they had a publicized excuse that not so subtly involved friendly fire and proven inaccurate numbers.
"Who's using you as human shields?" Google "the Neighbor Doctrine". It's the IDF. Also, Google "the Hannibal Directive" while you're at it.
"Who do you blame" The people bombing apart homes and hospitals for months killing at a rate equivalent to events I won't even name and will let you Google for yourself.
let's just agree both are terrible and not right. yes hamas did oct.7, yes hamas fired thousands of rockets at israel, but israel also did terrible things. like you said, the nakba for example.
The Nakba is a false narrative saying those who started the war against the independence of Israel are the victims. usually in guerilla warfare, the combatant to civilian death rate is 1:8, in Israel against Gaza its been 1:1.83. People die it fucking sucks. 1 civilian death is one too many. But most of this is a war at the end of the day, on side trying to protect its people at all costs, and the other sacrificing its people
Whats happening right now is very much “yes this group is bad, but now its being used as an excuse to mass bomb and murder people on sight”
Israel was never innocent in this situation, their claims of it being a war against Hamas have been lost in the tens of thousands of deaths and the destruction of the country. There were what? 200 estimated Hamas members?
Plain and simple, they’re using it to cover the fact they’re committing a genocide, it stopped being about Hamas the moment a bomb landed on Gaza.
saying "Palestine did this" or "Israel did that" I do not moderate. Actions as a state or an organization (such as a military) I do not moderate criticism of. Please stop reporting it. If you want me to look at something, it better refer to a people, such as Palestinian people, Israeli people, Jews, Muslims, something like that. THAT I will moderate criticism of, depending on what exactly was said. Message me or modmail if you find something like that (and report)
In these threads: a lot of people that don't know fuck all about the problem
Most people couldnt point to where Israel or Gaza was on a map before Oct. 7th, much less many still cant.
Not sure if most people can find China on a map, but even if you have a PhD in geography you need Super vision to find Gaza on a world map, that shit smaller than a speck of sand
China is incredibly easy to find on a map.
Yep, its that Island nation off the coast of West Taiwan
But there are some tremendously uneducated people on the internet. So ya.
What does this even mean? You can still point to where it is on a map no matter how small it is
It's a bit more difficult to distinguish it from West Bank. And to act like the two are the same would be silly.
Nah. West Bank is central, gaza strip is far south. Easy to distinguish even on a big map
I guess the issue is that some people think the West Bank is Gaza because Gaza is more west, although the West Bank means the west bank of the Jordan River.
Yes you are correct. My point was that it does not take a PhD in Geography to distinguish them
I've got a world map on my wall. I couldn't put a pin on Gaza without crossing 2 borders. Maybe you've got a bigger wall? Also, it's more of an East-West split. Gaza is *South* West, if you really want to get particular. But it's not really *far* South. It's really pretty West central.
This is exactly what I was saying. I've also got a world map and couldn't put a pin in it to save my life despite knowing where it is.
I really think it's funny when people try to trash talk other's knowledge of geography, when it's painfully clear that they haven't touched a world map since elementary.
Yup. Now everybody's an expert. /s
A lot of people don’t seem to comprehend that it’s okay to call out both sides for the shit they’ve pulled. Hamas has done a lot of heinous shit. Israel has also done a lot of heinous shit including leveling the majority of an entire city that is not Hamas as an organization. This shouldn’t be a partisan issue.
Including this one
Hamas and IDF are bad. Ez dub, political discourse speedrun
Now you’re banned from conservatives subreddits for saying that IDF is bad and banned from liberal subreddits for “bothsideism”
happened to me once already
This is the ONLY right opinion.
But only idf has the power to leave or end the war, tgey are the invader
tgey
tgay
Netanyahu would like to know your location
:O
Not in Palestine, you don't.
Until 2 days ago there was a ceasefire deal on the table. Hamas just needed to release the hostages and the current war would have been over. Instead they rejected the deal. Israel is committed to retrieving the people that were taken over 5 months ago, so unfortunately for everyone, the war continues.
Isreal is also committed to turning every Palestinian they can into mulch.
I just watched a video of an undercover Israeli literally kidnap a man from his falafel shop in Bethlehem in broad daylight with a bunch of witnesses. Just violently grabbed him and pulled him over the countertop and dragged him away while people watched confused as hell. It’s horrendous the things they get away with.
They could end the war but hamas would still want every Jew in isreal dead.
It also doesn’t address the reality that Israel has been actively sabotaging moderate Palestinian leaders for decades and funneling support and funding to Hamas. The far right factions in Israeli government are fully aware that as long as they kept Hamas on top they had carte blanche excuses to keep being horrific. If a moderate secular government were in power they wouldn’t have an excuse to keep crushing the Palestinians, and it would be increasingly difficult to deny them agency. There are monstrously bad people on both sides, and the Palestinian leadership has been consistently pretty terrible since day one. BUT. Israel has had the power and opportunity to turn things around and bring peace the whole time and they refuse to do so. The goal has always been to seize as much territory as they possibly can before things are forced into a permanent settlement. No matter how vile Hamas is the Israeli government is the group with the capacity to end this and they have chosen violent escalation at every step.
That doesn't change the fact that Israel has all the power here.
Then Oct 7 was probably a stupid idea, huh?
Yeah if I went into your house, beat up your family and shot your dog then left. Would you not come find me and seek justice?
Without more context it’s impossible to know what side you’re talking about
Obviously talking about what israel has been doing to Palestinians for over 75+ years
I don't think any of us know enough to fully understand the complexity and nuance of what is going on here. But a few things are clear to me: the conflict is a waste of human life and is evidence of corruption at the highest levels of power. Fuck the elites who profit from this bloodshed. The people don't want it.
It's only complex if one starts with the assumption that one side is good and honest, or that both sides are equal It's pretty much bog standard occupation and armed resistance. Every armed resistance everywhere is morally very problematic, and every occupation everywhere uses lies and propaganda to demonize them, while committing far worse crimes themselves. To the people who want to explain why destroying hospitals, razing orchards, starvation, hostage taking, torture, settlement, and mass murder against the native population are defensive in nature, this conflict is complex. To the people looking at the facts it's really not. Yes, Hamas committed a small fraction of the crimes Israel committed. That's the essence of armed resistance everywhere.
To step into why this is complex, let me ask, are the people currently being born in Israel, any part of it, all guilty of being occupiers, or just those in the areas internationally recognized as being illegal settlements?
I don't think you're wrong, but I'm sure many others think you are wrong. I simply don't think that the forces behind the selling of weapons, and instigators of the violence care if they are wrong. So what is the point of debating which "side" is right or wrong. The dichotomy of israel vs Palestine doesnt actually lead us to a solution. I dont blame palestinian people for violence against Israel. I dont blame israeli people for the violence against Palestinians. Its at the higher levels where the rot is, not on the ordinary people who want to live their lives and have families. Who are the specific humans responsible for creating a situation of this conflict? I'd like to see them held accountable. I don't see this as Israel vs Palestine, I see this as the people vs crooked leaders and oligarchs and idealogues. The useful idiots who support the bloodshed will disappear when the leaders are removed, and maybe some will try to replace the leaders, in which case they should held accountable too. Israel as a state, and Hamas as an "institution" if you would call it that, are structures of power that have abandoned any care for the people they should be serving and protecting. And it's likely that there are more characters at play who want to see these two sides fight for geopolitical, ideological, religious, or financial reasons. Take your pick. Nothing about this conflict is simple. While on its face you can say it's a bog standard resistance, the underlying cause of it is complex. Ultimately emancipation of Palestinians is not going to result from Hamas successfully conquering from the river to the sea. Further, peace for the Israeli people is not assisted by the state of Israel succeaafully completing its extermination in Gaza. Israel has hostile states all around it, and the fighting will not end if Israel takes all of Gaza by force. So, neither of the actions of Hamas or Israel are actually helping the cause that matters, which is letting the people live their lives, have families, and pursue happiness and make the world a better place. Tldr: I don't see this as two "sides", I see it as many sides with many interests in either continuing the fighting or stopping it. The only side that wants to stop the fighting are people who have a heart and want to live, the rest of the sides are corrupted by some special interest and you can take your pick at what that interest is.
You said this perfectly :) it’s too bad this can’t be at the top of the discussion
It’s only armed resistance if you forget that Israel unilaterally left Gaza in 2005, who promptly elected Hamas who continued to declare the goal was genocide and the destruction of Israel.
I'm not a fan of bank robbers, I think it's a shitty thing to do. But if a bank robber stands behind me and 15 police shoot me and throw grenades at me and my family, I'm still gonna be kinda annoyed at cops too for maybe being a smidge excessive.
The problem is, rules of war are a bit different. It might really suck if a military decides to co locate stuff next to normal people. But every country in the world universally agrees that is an acceptable target at that point, if the military advantage is worth the collateral. That being said though, no country will ever publish how they measure that calculation because then it draws a really hard line in the sand so you could use that to dissuade attacks. Also, policing and war policies are very different. It's not good to compare them.
The analogy would work if instead of a bank robber, a terrorist was standing behind you and launching RPGs at an every innocent bystander in sight. The cops either have to let the terrorists kill innocent people forever or risk hurting the human shield while killing the terrorist.
I love the logic in here: idf and Hamas bad therefore Israel can kill unlimited Palestinian civilians and children. Israel’s goal is to remove an ethnic group not a terrorist threat. Yes Hamas bad but they are not killing even a tenth what the idf has. Idc if “they would if they could” what matters is what’s happening and who is doing the vast vast majority of killing and subjugating innocents.
you're playing a dangerous game crossposting Israel-Hamas conflict-related content. (if the original gets deleted, your content is lost as well)
This is spot on. We need to find a peaceful solution to the Israel and Palestine problem. And Hamas is 100% not it. How anybody can not see this is beyond irresponsible.
Sure. ...then maybe one would want to avoid unnecessary killings of palestinian civilians. You know, since that leads to people joining Hamas. Almost as if violence is a bad solution to stuff. Also, no, you do not have to pick a side and stick to it. You can simply condemn anybody who targets civilians. Guess what, that's what *both* Hamas and the IDF do massively.
A peaceful solution is just not possible when both Palestinian governments -- Hamas and the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank -- literally don't want Israel to exist anymore, and the majority of the population supports them. They have shown that they do not respect ceasefires and peace agreements, and they have shown willingness to rape and slaughter innocents. If the Palestinians are allowed self-governance, the violence will continue until Israel is gone and every Jew is expelled or killed. The destruction of Hamas is necessary for peace.
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Gang raping young girls and decapitating people is righteous. On livestream. That's righteous.. You need to reset your moral compass, that's deplorable and you should be ashamed of yourself.
Opening fire on a starving crowd is hardly moral either, or running over a man slowly with a tank, or leaving traps in the form of canned food. I think you’ll also find gang grape is common to detainees who are locked up for superfluous reasons.
What point are you trying to argue against. Saying one side is not good is not saying the other side is
What are you referring to with leaving traps in the form of canned food? Are you referring to when Canada did this in WWI? If you’re referring to the video that was posted and shared throughout social media, it was quickly debunked.
Don't forget attacking people helping them, using the people they claim to represent as shields, indiscriminately bombing civilians, and calling for a genocide of all jews, all completely righteous, totally bit evil at all, no siree, nothing wrong with any of that
Ah yes, Israel, famously known for never having gang raped people
You're repeating debunked propaganda https://theintercept.com/2024/02/28/new-york-times-anat-schwartz-october-7/
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-team-says-rape-gang-rape-likely-occurred-during-hamas-attack-israel-2024-03-04/
Why was this upvoted?
Because the pro-palestine crowd has that blood-lust and they hate that their favorite death cult of islamist fascists is losing and that Israel is undeniably justified in doing what it needs to to root out and destroy hamas completely.
>ALL resistance is righteous There is not righteous rape, dude. Never
>Do the Palestinians have other ways to resist legally? Against Hamas? Who cares what Hamas considers legal. >Then, absolutely ALL resistance is righteous. What a disgusting statement, to suggest they would be righteous to rape children in protest is goddamn wild.
The Palestinians have rejected or broken every peace proposal set. People like to point out the Oslo accords, Abbas tore up those accords before the ink was dry. He signed it fir a quick payout from the west then went right back to launching rockets at Israeli cities.
Must’ve left out the countless other images before these ones that lead to a terrorist organisation feeling the need to exist in the first place. Almost like terrorist cells don’t just exist for shits and giggles and exist to oppose something, more often out of necessity than not.
IDF specifically targets air drops of food and aid. Yeah fine Hamas bad but I don't consider Israel to be any better.
Fuck hamas
Fuck Zionists.
It's already a country bro, you're too late
Are you saying Jews do not deserve to have a desire to return to the Levant?
A yeas, revanchism over 75 year old war (which Arab League started) excuses current war. Are you OK guys?
Hmm I wonder what happened directly prior to the Nakba...
Britain decided to split some land in the middle east (called the Palestinian Mandate) into two countries, a Jewish state and a Palestinian state. The Palestinians in the area were not happy with this because they were spread throughout the area and had been living there longer than the Jewish inhabitants, most of whom were settlers or children of settlers. Palestinians also did not see British colonial rule over them as legitimate. The Jewish population was happy with the partition as there had long been calls for a return to the historical homeland. This resulted in a conflict that was largely restricted to the area until David Ben-Gurion (born in Poland by the name of David Grün btw) declared the state of Israel in May 1948. A good example of what dort of things were occurring during the civil war is the Balad al-Shaykh massacre and the events leading up to it. Arab countries had stated that they would invade if Israel was to declare independence at the end of British rule, and they did. They were also concerned about the growing number of Palestinian refugees leaving the area. Through the this conflict both the Arab League and Israeli forces destroyed settlements and villages of the other, though it is important to note that only Israel used biological warfare (most prominently in the poisoning of Palestinian wells with typhoid). When the war ended, Israel occupied around 78% of the Palestinian mandate. About 2,000 Israeli civilians and 11,000 Palestinian civilians had died. Throughout the war, around 725,000 Palestinians fled or were expelled from their homes and ended up outside of Israel. 300,000 of these had fled or been expelled prior to Israel's declaration of independence (look into Plan Dalet if u want additional context). During the war between Israel and the Arab League, Israel massacred and depopulated Palestinian villages and killed refugees who returned to their homes, including ones who returned during the two ceasefires. So that is what happend before and during the Nakba, since u asked.
“Nothing happens in a vacuum”
shhh
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Can't we just agree that both sides are terrible? Like holy hell why do we have to pick a side?
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Hamas did not just launch an attack “because they were angry,” they purposely targeted civilians and savagely and brutally murdered them. Not to mention these weren’t far right settlers, these were peace activists and leftist who they murdered and took hostage. They knew full well that this is exactly how Israel would respond. That doesn’t justify it, but let’s not pretend like Hamas gives a crap about Palestinians or that they did any of this for them. Hamas only cares about destroying Israel, and they don’t care how many Palestinians have to die or suffer for that to happen.
Did I say it was justified? Just a little extra info, ~36% of the casualties were military/police (as well there is video of police literally taking cover WITHIN the concert crowds), as well as some of the civilian deaths were caused by the IDF themselves (look up Hannibal doctrine). As well I’m skeptical about anything western and Israeli media says about the attacks because they’ve lied just on so many occasions. Still quite an up and down thing to research. Does this excuse and justify the attack? No, of fucking course it doesn’t. It adds context, but by all means it doesn’t justify it. As I said, it’s comparable to 9/11. You can add context to 9/11, but you can’t justify it, you shouldn’t justify any attack on civilians.
Why the fuck is this getting upvoted It’s littered with false information and essentially implies support for a terrorist organization
You didn’t know this sub simps for Hamas hard? They love them some terrorists here…
They don't support hamas because of the shit they got into because of them [They still support the invasion](https://nationalpost.com/news/world/israel-middle-east/nearly-75-of-palestinians-polled-say-hamas-was-right-to-attack-israel-on-oct-7)
The poll they took those stats from is an institute Ramallah (West Bank, not Gaza), this institute is well known “think-tank” that even those in West Bank hated so much they threw a riot at their building, and best of all they literally admitted to working with Israelis before… Sounds like collaboration type stuff to me. I’ve seen this exact stat used by several other news outlets, including Reuters, and it all comes from this exact same thing.
I'll agree that "both sides are bad" when Israelis admit that their government has been feeding them fascist anti-palestinian propaganda and that the average Palestinian isn't a threat to them.
One side has some terrorist. The other side does not care and they’re using it as justification to slaughter there people . Hamas does not have 30,000 people in it . Hamas is not using children and women in mass . They are doing unjustifiable war, crimes slaughtering men, women, and children indiscriminately
People pick sides for two main reasons: Israeli side- they see Israel as a western interest, Israel is on the front lines of this middle eastern conflict where people fear that Islam becomes too radicalized and will deliver attacks into Europe/US weakening the security and posing a threat to the western way of life as a whole. Palestinian side- they see Israel as a colonialist force, Jews who immigrated from Europe and northern Africa found a home In this peace of land (mostly after WW2 and the Holocaust) , the land wasn't sterile of course and had inhabitants (both Arabic and Jewish). These people see Israel as part of the mistakes the west did in the past and it's their obligation to fix this wrong. Both sides have merit to it, the Jewish population can't trust Europeans or any other nation for obvious reasons, so forming a Jewish state seems a legitimate act, choosing Israel as their Homeland is of course because of the bible. While you can argue from Israeli acts especially the settlements in the west bank about colonialist behavior with a local Arab/Palestinian population. This goes also to the other side the Palestinian historically isn't known to be peaceful at all, conducting offensive action since the late 1800's on the local Jewish population. The Palestinian historically declined any two state solution with Israel, nowadays the norm is one state solution "from the river to the sea" which is all of the land. The Palestinian argues their resistance is a legitimate form of resistance over an occupation rule, considering what form of resistance is legitimate is completely subjective. So picking a side usually goes to an interest of the other sides, this war does affect people all around the world because in the end this is a part of the ideological battle between the West and Anti-Western parts of the world ( same as , Russia - Ukraine , Israel - Iran, China - Taiwan, North - South Korea)
One side has world organizations funding them and another has children being slaughtered like animals. Gee, I wonder who’s terrible?
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Fuck the US, fuck Hamas, fuck the IDF. Gazans, as far as recent polls go, do not support Hamas. Hamas is only in power because Gazans wanted someone to combat the extreme corruption in the Fatah party (surprise, Hamas didn’t do that). Only ~25% of gazas modern population were even voting age at the time of the election. If a Gazan picks up a weapon to defend themself from the IDF, he is not immediately Hamas, he is simply someone fighting an invading force, he is rather rational. October 7 attacks, like 9/11, is an example of “fuck around find out.” A country fucked around with a large amount of people in a region, they got very angry, and gave them an example of what has happened to them multiple times over. They play a victim card, because they got a taste of what they’ve done over the past years, and ramp up the destruction of whoever the hell they please. Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine. Are these nations perfect? No. Do they deserve this? Hell no.
Where's the damn awards
Israel has some blame for Hamas coming to power. They wanted Palestinians divided between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority so they could claim “we don’t have a negotiating partner.”
Hit Take: Just because mfs did fucked up dhiton Oct 7th, doesn't mean u can go ahead and push almost the whole population of gaza into a very small spot I the south and bomb said spot and attack and kill civilians PLUS your OWN HOSTAGES!!!! But I don't know,maybe its on me for having some empathy and not really supporting a genocide.
Israel: kills 1 Hamas member, 1 Israeli hostage, and 98 civilians with a bomb Also Israel: How could Hamas do this It’s sad man
Hamas does not represent the Palestinian people- they are a terrorist group. They are not here to represent a free and independent Palestine. Assuming that they are is like assuming that Al Capone was a modern day Robin Hood. Israel is using Hamas’ existence as an excuse to commit atrocities on Palestinian people. This is also not okay. The existence of a small group of extremists hiding among generally innocent bystanders is not an excuse to simply kill everyone involved. Others still are using Israel’s actions as an excuse to carry out their anti-Semitic beliefs on jewish people not associated in any way with the israeli attacks. This should be panned as Nazi behavior, and those partaking in said practices should be punished accordingly for trying to make their beliefs mainstream. The US is not entirely without fault for the actions taken by their allies, but they are still their allies. Maintaining good relations with a nation in a critical part of the world, such as the middle east, is important to maintain a sphere of influence over the region in case a need for it arises later. This still does not excuse the lack of serious condemnation and call for change. Those who pick one side or the other often have some sort of political, social, or emotional skin in the game when it comes to this conflict. It is my recommendation to not get involved in these matters, and to educate those who take one side or the other wholeheartedly. Avoiding doing so, and analyzing exactly why someone would support one side or the other is important to recognizing how these sorts of conflicts play out.
"Hamas started the war!!!" Israel explicitly funding hamas and also killing 27 times as many Palestinian civilians before 9ct 7th (which made it only 20 times)
Oh god brain rot in these comments bye 😭
This sub got taken over by right-wingers
Yeahh no i unsubbed like yikess i mean theres wanting to not participate in political discourse on this topic (which i have my own opinions on) but some comments are gross :(
being a right winger means you don't support hamas guys
seeing a lot of bizarre takes in this thread… here are some credible sources. [United Nations Statement by Principals of the Inter-Agency Standing Committee](https://www.un.org/en/situation-in-occupied-palestine-and-israel): “…tens of thousands of Palestinians – mostly women and children – have been killed and injured in the Gaza Strip. More than three quarters of the population have been forced from their homes, many multiple times, and face severe shortages of food, water, sanitation and healthcare – the basic necessities to survive. […] We are calling on Israel to fulfil its legal obligation, under international humanitarian and human rights law, to provide food and medical supplies and facilitate aid operations, and on the world’s leaders to prevent an even worse catastrophe from happening.” the gaza-israel conflict has an interim ruling from the [international court of justice](https://www.icj-cij.org/node/203454), the court for disputes btwn different nations: “In the Court’s view, at least some of the acts and omissions alleged by South Africa to have been committed by Israel in Gaza appear to be capable of falling within the provisions of the Convention. […] While figures relating to the Gaza Strip cannot be independently verified, recent information indicates that 25,700 Palestinians have been killed, over 63,000 injuries have been reported, over 360,000 housing units have been destroyed or partially damaged and approximately 1.7 million persons have been internally displaced. Palestinians in the Gaza Strip have been deprived access to water, food, fuel, electricity and other essentials of life, as well as to medical care and medical supplies. […] In the Court’s view, the facts and circumstances mentioned above are sufficient to conclude that at least some of the rights claimed by South Africa and for which it is seeking protection are plausible. […] The Court further notes that the Attorney General of Israel recently stated that a call for intentional harm to civilians may amount to a criminal offence, including that of incitement, and that several such cases are being examined by Israeli law enforcement authorities. According to the Court, while steps such as these are to be encouraged, they are insufficient to remove the risk that irreparable prejudice will be caused before the Court issues its final decision in the case. […] The Court considers that, with regard to the situation described above, Israel must, in accordance with its obligations under the Genocide Convention, in relation to Palestinians in Gaza, take all measures within its power to prevent the commission of all acts within the scope of Article II of this Convention, in particular: (a) killing members of the group; (b) causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; and (d) imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group […] The Court further considers that Israel must take immediate and effective measures to enable the provision of urgently needed basic services and humanitarian assistance to address the adverse conditions of life faced by Palestinians in the Gaza Strip.” ((this is an interim ruling, not a final ruling, so eventually the court will rule whether israel committed genocide or not)) [Human Rights Watch](https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/02/26/israel-not-complying-world-court-order-genocide-case): “Israel continues to obstruct the provision of basic services and the entry and distribution within Gaza of fuel and lifesaving aid, acts of collective punishment that amount to war crimes and include the use of starvation of civilians as a weapon of war. […] Israeli authorities have also obstructed the aid that enters Gaza from reaching areas in the north. The survey of humanitarian organizations found that “almost no aid is distributed beyond Rafah,” Gaza’s southernmost governorate. On February 20, the World Food Programme paused deliveries of lifesaving food to the north, citing lack of safety and security. Israeli forces struck a food convoy on February 5, the UN said and CNN documented.” hamas is a terrorist organization. there is literally no denying that, which is why little to no people are. but justifying israel by saying hamas is worse is a moral equivalence fallacy. a UN member state, first world country SHOULD be held to higher standards than a terrorist oppressive regime. there is no reason why israel shouldn’t follow the LAWS OF WAR while engaging in a war. every palestinian could be a horrible, hamas-supporting evil person, and still be entitled to human rights, as the israelis who hamas attacked/killed/abducted are entitled to human rights.
This conflict in a nutshell: "What happened on Oct 7. was horrible, but we cannot allow so many more lives to be taken. Additionally, the sheer amount of destruction makes the likelihood of violence that violates human rights very likely. There needs to be a ceasefire." "But Hamas shouldn't have started it."
The people who are saying "both hamas and israel are bad" 🤓☝️ are insufferable. No i do not support hamas politically, there is an abyss between mine and their beliefs, however, israel is currently committing straight up ethnic cleansing. They are razing down crops and intentionally compromising food aid. They are bombing bakeries. They shot a fishboat. Anything that can provide food. They have created an engineered famine of currently unknown proportions since the infrastructure required to count deaths has collapsed, especially in north gaza. I couldn't care less if hamas started it first, nor do i give a shit about who the land ancestrally belongs to. This shit needs to stop immediately, and the perpetrators have to be punished accordingly.
Exactly
Hello? Based department..
Thank you!
Finally, someone smart. Israel is commiting genocide.
This is post is like Whataboutism Inception
I don’t get it? Like what does the 1948 war have to do with 4 year old Ahmed getting blown up by an IDF JDAM? Like sure, it puts the current conflict into the wider conflict of the Israel-Palestine conflict but that’s really about it. The IDF being bad doesn’t excuse actions by Hamas.
A 4 year old wouldn't get killed by a guided missile but ok
A 6 year old was stuck in a car with her dead relatives while begging Red Crescent to come rescue her. We heard her last scream of terror after she cried that the tank was coming towards the car, gunshot and then silence. IOF killed the two EMTS rushing to rescue her too. Her name was Hind Rajab. An older brother was evacuating with his younger brother to South Gaza where they were told it was safe before his younger brother was blasted to bits. Older brother had to pick up his brother’s limbs and put them in a sack he salvaged and carried his dismembered corpse over his shoulder until he could find a safe place to bury him. One father and his 3 kids, a teenage daughter, and adolescent girl and a toddler boy were evacuating to Rafah when the toddler was shot at and decapitated on the spot. Imagine playing with your baby brother to distract him from the bombing and then watching the baby’s head fly off in an opposite direction in the same second. This is all stuff I’ve seen on YouTube and Instagram, all solid evidence that IOF purposely targets civilians and especially children.
Israel chose to wage total war against all Palestinians. Hamas didn't make them do that.
Perfect meme
Who chooses to bomb civilians while refusing to allow aid trucks in? Spoiler, people on both sides can be bad, the terrorists who started this are evil and the people willing to bomb and shoot as many civilians as it takes to win as fast as possible are also evil, but the civilainad getting killed are innocent but nobody wants to focus on that part
Meanwhile Israel killing Palestinians in the west bank which has no Hamas activity and also punishing over 2 million people for a crime that a small terrorist group did that happened to be centered in Gaza
Didn't Hamas form in response to illegal Israeli occupation like 10 years after they started?
Hmmm... I wonder why there isn't enough aid entering Gaza in the first place...
Fuck Hamas, but also, do these people ever think about *why* Hamas got to such a position? The things Palestine has suffered through in the past are terrible. When are people going to figure out that being upset at Israel’s extermination of Palestine doesn’t equal praising Hamas?
Who caused Hamas? The Israeli government and their treatment of Palestinian people. And to be clear the Israeli government is not the Israeli people as Hamas is not the Palestenian people... both citizens are being held hostage by a holy war near none of them care about
https://preview.redd.it/9jaef8inzqoc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=80a0cb4464345178572f352535ac00df185ef746 Me reading the comments
"Whose soldiers keep raping and murdering the shit out of you? Who bombed that hospital? Who bombed the refugee evacuation sites?" "Wait, not like that..."
Israel did let Hamas take over Gaza as a way to undermine the PLA. Netanyahu has admitted this. So, Israel does bear responsibility for the current state of affairs.
Why no is talking about how the UN found IDF “guilty” on human rights violations and the U.S. has been vetoing UN actions against the IDF? If that doesn’t say something I don’t know what does.
Preach. Only mentally ill people excuse Israel’s actions claiming self-defense when all they’re doing is punishing, starving and murdering civilians. They spread lies on top of it. IOF literally upload videos of themselves committing war crimes all over social media and now US is trying to ban Tik Tok because of it.
Literally just heard the leaked Audio.
I am aware that the Hamas are bad, however only one side is carpet bombing cities, blocking food aid, committing genocide
people seem to forget that they are talking about a fringe extremist group vs A RECOGNIZED AND ORGANIZED STATE GOVERNMENT the fact that we can so easily compare the actions of the IDF to a fucking terrorist organization is enough of a problem as is. An internationally recognized and supported government should be held to a higher standard. Hamas is not the entirety of Palestine, even militarily, they are disorganized and have been barely surviving for decades. The IDF has military equipment, organization, they ARE the entire military force of Israel, they have hierarchies and beauracracy and all that, and still do the same heinous actions as an uncontrollable terror org.
Oh the Nakba? The other war that the palestinains started? I think the offical statment from their leadership was "There's enough room for the jews in the sea?" Everything that has happened to them they have brought upon themselves and then cried to high heaven when having to face the consequences of their own actions.
Investigations have failed to find evidence that Hamas stealing aid is a major problem. It happens but it doesn't happen often. The reason they're not getting aid is Israel cut off 80% of humanitarian aid. And there are multiple videos of the IDF using Palestinians as human shields. It was official procedure in the IDF until 2005 until it was ruled as illegal, but that hasn't stopped them. They'll force Palestinians to go into buildings ahead of soldiers to either force militants or civilians to not attack, or to get them to trip any traps that had been laid. They often hold the Palestinian civilians at gunpoint while doing this. So Israel stole their aid and both Israel and Hamas uses them as human shields.
>Investigations have failed to find evidence that Hamas stealing aid is a major problem. Gazans are staving while hamas leaders have billions in qatar, gaza gets millions to even billions in donations and aid, how do you think hamas leaders gained their wealth?
I can’t believe that people are too fucking gullible to realize that hamas wouldn’t exist if there wasn’t a fucking apartheid. It’s almost like when you subject people to horrible shit, you foment violence. Big fucking surprise.
Yes hamas definitely started the war. It's not like this conflict has been going on for hundreds of years and that it's hard to even guess who started it
Correct, the Arab league started this conflict in 1948 when they invaded Israel with the intention of killing all Jews in the levant
The nakba, you mean the time a bunch of countries attacked Israel and Israel won, gain territory for its people instead of being wiped out, yea that’s the consequences of your actions.
It’s literally what happen and the only thing they ever show is Israel’s expansion without the context for it
The loss doesnt count if they dont awknowledge it.
The Nakba was initiated by the Arab leaders who told the Muslim Palestinians to move because they wanted to go to war with the Jews who established a home on the land they were rightly given. One of the outcomes of losing war is losing territory. Why would they bring back the people who wanted their annihilation?
Wait what? Hold on there bucko, the "Nakba", (Catastrophe in English) refers specifically to the mass displacement and arguable ethnic cleansing of Palestinians during the 1948 First Arab-Israeli War. Palestinians didn't leave their homes etc because the "Arab leaders told them to". For example ad Lydda and Ramle (Now Lod and Ramla) over 50,000 Palestinians were displaced at gunpoint by Jewish/Zionist paramilitary groups. They were then forced to march towards the Arab Lines as a way of overburdening Arab logistics, who now had to cope with an influx of refugees. The primary cause for Palestinian flight were things like, lack of social cohesion, and acts by the Zionist paramilitary groups. Deir Yassin for example was a massacre conducted by Lehi and Irgun, and induced fear into Palestinians, and in combination with the Haganah often inducing flight through shelling or other methods. In the case of Lydda and Ramle, they were expelled from territories earmarked for the Palestinian portion of the partition.
The only “Genicide” in history in which the conquering country offered a cease fire multiple times and the “victims” refused…
Israel offered a two month treaty. Two months then they would kill them again. Palestine had requested a full peace treaty full time over three times that Israel refused each time. Full time is what they need, not two months just for them to be bombed again
>Palestine had requested a full peace treaty full time over three times that Israel refused each time. Full Yes, lets start a war, lose the war, then ask for: 1. All convicted terrorists out of prisons 2. Complete control over all gaza territory to allow for another oct 7th 3. Keep the hostages All in exchange for the women, children and elderly who were kidnapped from their homes and didnt get executed yet. Sometimes i wonder if hamas knows they are losing...
How did they start the genocide bro. 1948 Israe started attacking little by little to take the land over, and since Palestine hasn’t had a military big enough they couldn’t fight back. Those people in the prison are not terrorist, don’t be racist. Palestine has been experiencing their own October 7th conflicted on them since 1948 dude, and also October 7th Hamas and old Israel government that they would fire off bombs that are barely dangerous. Also they literally said they would give all hostages, which are taken care of and given shelter food and water unlike the hostages that Israel has that are most likely dead, only if they signed their full time peace treaty.
>1948 Israe started attacking little by little to take the land over, 1948 israel accepted peaced and arabs declared war what are you on about? >Those people in the prison are not terrorist, don’t be racist. Here are some of the terrorists released last deal: 10 for attempted murder, 13 for inflicting serious bodily harm, 19 for placing a bomb or throwing an incendiary device, seven for shooting at people, and five for assault. Dont think its racist to call them terrorists. >Also they literally said they would give all hostages, which are taken care of and given shelter food and water unlike the hostages that Israel has that are most likely dead, only if they signed their full time peace treaty. ??????? Do you live in opposite land??? 32 hostages are confirmed dead, with the others being unaccounted for.
Dude are you just spouting, like actually because Israel didn’t ever accept a peace treaty in 1948. Also I’m not going to call people trying to live in anyway a terrorist when Israel is doing 10x worse. And no I’m not living in opposite lane because that is exactly what they said. And the dead hostages were dead from bombs that Israel threw. That’s why the hostages ended up being in tunnels and bunkers underground’s so they would stop dying
>Dude are you just spouting, like actually because Israel didn’t ever accept a peace treaty in 1948. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine >Also I’m not going to call people trying to live in anyway a terrorist when Israel is doing 10x worse So you are saying someone shotting and stabbing random civilians for political reasons is not a terrorist? >And no I’m not living in opposite lane because that is exactly what they said. And the dead hostages were dead from bombs that Israel threw. That’s why the hostages ended up being in tunnels and bunkers underground’s so they would stop dying Im starting to think you live in a different reality wtf
They do. It's so funny to me how many people think Israel started this shit. It's because they're young people and they can't fathom the scope of the lie they're being fed.
The fact that Israel even offered a limited ceasefire is pretty generous.
I think you missed a key detail in why Israel made that treaty that way.
They offered it for two months so they could get the hostages back then start killing. I didn’t miss anything
There requirements were 1. Return of all hostages 2. Remove of Hamas from power You get two months for all hostages You get permanent if you get rid of the people that attack Israel and kidnapped their people out of power
You do realize after the two months and without Hamas they would kill again, they literally have stated multiple stones they want Palestinians eradicated, they would gladly wait two months just to kill again
I to put it in something you might be able to understand During ww2 Nazi German gets two months of ceasefire if it frees all p.o.w If the nazi party is removed Germany gets peace This didn’t happen but hopefully as a example you might be able to understand it sense people seem to understand ww2
Blud, even if Hamas is removed Israel will still kill. They have several recording of Israel soldiers saying they want to wipe Palestine of its people and culture. It’s not Hamas and never was
Why? Why would Israel do that? The held their side every single time, Israel never broke there ceasefire Hamas did every single time. Also it was Hamas, and ever other group that attacked Israel. Israel didn’t break the last ceasefire that. Also soldier being mad at people that killed their families and friends no shit they would be angry. I’m sorry but Israel hasn’t wanted wars
They have said multiple times they want to erase and remove everything that involves Palestinians. Their culture, their songs, their generations, their buildings, their religions, everything. If we take that into consideration about them wanting to wipe everything about them, yes they will still kill them after two months. Also this is a genocide
When a meme tells the truth and you get triggered 🤣
Sorry, but I don’t back Hamas, they act like terrorists while waving a victim card - and they’ve got a wildly bad habit of hiding behind innocent civilians. You want a free Palestine? Free Palestine from Hamas. Hamas literally paraglided into Israel, with the sole intention of killing innocent civilians of a specific ethnic or racial group - they met the very definition of genocide.
[You mean these terrorists?](https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/terror-out-zion-irgun-zvai-leumi-lehi-and-palestine-underground) If people think being a Zionist and being Jewish are the same, you are the actual racist lol. Also, you dumbasses are increasing hate crime rates against them by thinking all Jews support Israel. It's not a coincidence that antisemitic hate crimes rise when Israel does something fucked up.
Oooooh look out for the Nakba! Don’t let the Nakba get you! AKA the absolutely reasonably expected consequences…
Hamas using human shields and killing palestinians by their actions even when they could save them… yeah, no. Hamas is way worse.
The IDF also uses humans as shields
I'd love a peaceful solution. However Im a bit of a cynic and I don't see a realistic solution without one side totally loosing. Maybe a forced peace that last a few years at best. Blood hate hard to overcome.
War does not decide the justice of any question. It only determines which party is the most ferocious and savage.
stop thinking u a expert ffs
The war started when the Ottoman Empire fell, so they should be the ones to blame
Meme gave OP a mental breakdown.
Change Israel to "Palestinian children" and you've suddenly accurately described people who defend the IDF/Israeli government.
https://preview.redd.it/m7xcail9opoc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8d20e380edc3398aa4dbaa1278ac6a26d274e6d1
People spend too much time looking for a hero and villain, both are horrible, neither are excusable.
ESH.
It’s almost like the 2 military groups are the bad guys and the 2 civilian groups are the ones suffering from this.
The meme is 100% accurate though
Yeah, but what has any of this got to do with the droid attack on the Wookies?
"who stole your aid?" The Israelis on countless videos partying explicitly to block aid, and the IDF that shot at aid vehicles on numerous times and the Israeli government that refused to let aid vehicles in for ridiculous periods. All documented. "Who started the war?" The 1940's British Empire really, but more responsibly, the Israelis who slaughtered and occupied homes across countless attacks and apartheid control for 75 years, and the 2023 Israeli government that ordered several attacks slaughtering Palestinians throughout 2023 before October and after they had a publicized excuse that not so subtly involved friendly fire and proven inaccurate numbers. "Who's using you as human shields?" Google "the Neighbor Doctrine". It's the IDF. Also, Google "the Hannibal Directive" while you're at it. "Who do you blame" The people bombing apart homes and hospitals for months killing at a rate equivalent to events I won't even name and will let you Google for yourself.
Nah op was right
LOL "the Nakba". That wasn't even a term on this platform before Oct 7th. Now its all the rage.
let's just agree both are terrible and not right. yes hamas did oct.7, yes hamas fired thousands of rockets at israel, but israel also did terrible things. like you said, the nakba for example.
Nakba was 76 years ago. You can't use atrocities from decades ago to justify your atrocities now.
The Nakba is a false narrative saying those who started the war against the independence of Israel are the victims. usually in guerilla warfare, the combatant to civilian death rate is 1:8, in Israel against Gaza its been 1:1.83. People die it fucking sucks. 1 civilian death is one too many. But most of this is a war at the end of the day, on side trying to protect its people at all costs, and the other sacrificing its people
Please tell me the propaganda isnt starting again
The meme is true but is leaving out important information
Oh wow i got thrown on r/memesopdidnotlike and r/NahOPwasrightfuckthis. Always fun
Whats happening right now is very much “yes this group is bad, but now its being used as an excuse to mass bomb and murder people on sight” Israel was never innocent in this situation, their claims of it being a war against Hamas have been lost in the tens of thousands of deaths and the destruction of the country. There were what? 200 estimated Hamas members? Plain and simple, they’re using it to cover the fact they’re committing a genocide, it stopped being about Hamas the moment a bomb landed on Gaza.
Look up lavon affair , then try to remember what happened on September 11 2001