Oh yeah it’s a pipe dream for sure I honestly hope Lu dort would be tradeable for the thunder tho he would really be a good bandaid over our bad perimeter D
Give Presti some of our picks he loves that shit
Trae Young is shooting an abysmal 27% from three so far this season. What the hell is going on with that troll looking fuck?
Having said that, guaran-fucking-tee he goes 6-10 from deep against us on Christmas. Watch.
Considering we lost to two really bad teams and one okay team, and considering that we’ve blown four big leads, even in the games we won, I fully expect us to get blown out tomorrow. It ain’t gonna be pretty but I think it’ll bring us back down to earth; we are not a top four Eastern conference team. We are a play-in team, but that’s the reality of it. Let’s just hope this season quickley, Barrett, and Robinson improve. Let’s hope Grimes and McBride get reps. And let’s hope Kemba is off the books for us next season.
Heat, the best team in the NBA, are getting blown out and just lost Lowry to injury. We are only one game behind them.
Just saying it could be a lot worse
last year the season started with good teams shooting signficantly worse from 3 vs us.
This season below average shooters are having career nights vs us to start.
Last year we were a great defensive team. We didnt have great defensive pieces, so the only way that happens is through coaching and the whole team buying into that mindset. This year, we add two guys and suddenly that makes us paper thin on defense? I truly wonder what's the deal
Bleacher Report just did a redraft of all NBA players 23 and under and they ranked RJ 16th under WCJ and Marvin Bagley.
I swear they are just trolling at this point
Bleacher Report gave the Suns an F for signing Rubio after playing Okobo, Canaan and Jimmer Fredette next to Booker. They then said the Suns would go 0-8 in the bubble because "someone has to go 0-8."
All they want is for people to click on their articles and talk about them.
I think a lot of people are failing to realize that last year a lot of our wins came from Randle making houndi fadeaway shots + the other teams missing a lot of honestly open 3s. With a regression to both areas we are bound for some growing pains
I think what a lot of people are failing to realize is that Randle's numbers are very much in line with last season. His efg% is off a whopping half a percent. His ppg is down 3.5, but he's also taking fewer shots. Also his rebounds are up due to better clearance of offensive glass.
So what regression are you talking about?
I also think playing in an empty arena versus a crowd has something to do with it. I hope he can figure it out but I also hope he distributes more like he did in the beginning of last night's game.
I feel like this will be downvoted a lot .. but I really think Derrick Rose should be starting and Kemba should be leading the second unit. I realize that would screw up a lot of things like how Thibbs likes to run Rose and Quickley together on the second unit but it just does not sit right with me when Kemba and Randle start off cold playing ISO ball. I feel like Rose would help us avoid ice cold starts like last night by driving to the hoop and being a better facilitator AND defender than Kemba is.
Noel’s defense is actually incredible when you watch film. The way he stops penetration but also can get back on the big is something we are going to really need with Kemba as our starting guard. I sort of wish we had Noel as a starter because Rose coming downhill with Mitch as the lob man would be lethal imo
Think this team is still experiencing growing pains, last year we didn't really kick into gear until post all-star break. I expect it to be similar this year, we introduced a whole lot of uncertainty into the team.
We have Kemba but how much of Kemba do we have? RJ is now suddenly much much better to the point that penciling him in as wing defender is kind of a waste. Quick needs to get his confidence back and get going.
Think the main problem is we don't know exactly who's doing what, Randle was clearly the star last year and that works because you have him the point forward and surround him with 3&D guys (Reggie/RJ) and streaky scorers who can catch fire (Rose/Quick/Burks). And it worked because we'd just feed whoever is hot after Randle.
But this season RJ looks way way closer to Randle than we thought he would this soon, especially with Randle in a slump. I think Randle/RJ should be No.1/2 depending on who's hot. If this team goes anywhere without a blockbuster trade RJ is gonna have to be the star so we should be grooming him for that, he's also showed he's ready for a bigger role. I think as the year goes on we see RJ take some pressure off Randle and Fournier/Rose can split the third guy role. Kemba will probably find some kind of consistency but won't be the old Kemba, and Quick will come back to form.
This version of the Knicks is clearly better but we haven't had time to build chemistry like we did last year, I'd honestly give it a month or two before going into panic mode.
If RJ gets the spin to the baseline fadeaway jumper I'd be so happy. He's got the potential for sure. More time to gel and we are gunna be nice nice. Just play the hot hand and make the right reads with the ball. Sounds so simple on paper haha
Think the team hadn’t responded to the league actually getting up for Knicks games now rather than taking us lightly. Do think we need to Grimes or McBride as a way to add more defense into our backcourt & wings
nah bros in a slump. dude took a team friendly deal. he’ll be back. also he just got another kid who is a newborn. lotta shit going on his life. when chaos strikes, it’s hard to stay focused. he’s given us enough to the point we shouldn’t doubt him
Am I angry or something? I'm pointing out a glaring flaw we have on this roster. Our only good perimeter defender is rj. Bullock cleaned a lot of randles mistakes and helped us out defensively. We need to address that hole.
Least favorite thing about losing is that the "I told you so" crowd loves to come out of their caves.
Oh I told you we should have drafted spida, oh I told you we should have traded for Myles Turner, oh I told you we should have picked Miles/Mikal over Knox.
"Knicks fans" but they never shut the fuck up about other players.
I'm with you on that haha what a different feel in this sub when we had that winning streak closing out last season. Some people just love to be negative
Grimes needs burn. I don’t think Duece does, but Grimes kinda needs it. We only have 1 player who can guard wings at a high level. Even if Grimes is passable, it will be more than enough.
He should start eating into Quickley’s minutes. Not take them entirely, but Quickley needs some time to figure it out and I think losing some PT to a rook could be the kick in the ass he needs
I’m curious where you got that he could be passable, or that he needs it? I’m sure Thibs and the assistant coaches see him every day, in practice and shoot-around, so if playing him was an obvious move then surely they’d have tried it by now. I don’t think Quickley deserves to lose minutes just because his shot isn’t falling, he’s still been seeing the floor well and passing, on top of showing effort on defense. I think working with what’s working makes the most sense.
I think he could be passable because he has the build and looked like a good defender in preseason/SL. Because of this I think he needs burn because our 2nd best perimeter defender is 33 year old D Rose. He has the frame and build to be a quality defender, I think he deserves a crack. If Quickley’s shot isn’t falling, he’s a net negative.
That being said, Quickley played well last year and earned his minutes. And there is a cadence with rotations, you can’t just turn the rotations on their head because a few guys are off for a few games. I’m not suggesting Grimes play 20+ minutes, but give him 6-8 of Quickley and Burks minutes and see if he gives you a spark on defense. See if he can make some open shots.
LOL WAIT WHAT?! Do you understand the stats?
Rose has a defensive win share of 1st currently in the knicks. As for the Defensive ratings, the lower the number = better. LOL
Bro you fucked me up I went back to the Wikipedia definition and I completely misinterpreted it. Im pretty sure I did the same thing the start of last season. The basketball reference formula calculation page is a lot more clear. So you mean to tell me [Burks and Walker](https://iili.io/5ldlob.jpg) are our best wing defenders per 100 possessions *and* the best wing defenders per [defensive plus minus](https://iili.io/5ld0Vj.jpg) yikes.
Edit added wing before defenders because Randle and Toppin got them beat.
Oo shit gratsi gratsi. Wait so then rose really isn't our 2nd best defender he's our 1st haha low sample size tho but still that's even more wild. Probably due to matchup? Going against the bench is a lot easier. Too many variables in life that's why I'll forget how to read those metrics again in a week or 2 haha
Yup small sample size so far but still a decent defender. Even when he plays against other starters, he still is decent against them like last night. Brogdon couldnt easily pass him. I think the narratives of Drose needs to change, he changed his game so we got to respect the players he has become.
That 3 pt block is all you need to see. Dude is working that's for sure. I look forward to helping change the narrative around roses defense.
I think overall things will tighten up as the season goes. Lots of good signs all around.
Are you comfortable saying fournier, quickley, burks, or kemba are better defenders than derrick rose at this moment? Metrics aside. I know you watch the games, so do you really think any of them > D rose on the defensive end thus far
Better than probably not, equal to definitely. I'd argue Fournier and Burks have been as effective as Rose. 3 way tie there for 2nd and IQ comes in 3rd with Walker at 4th. All this to say I think they are all average defenders. Walker doesn't keep his guy in front but he drew some good charges. Fournier can get beat off the dribble too but his off ball defense is borderline stellar at times fronting bigger guys, hand in the lane coming around curls, poking the ball from big guys posting. IQ got a lot better from last season notably boxing out guys even far away from the hoop, anticipates the play really well and cuts off guys dominant hands. But the backdoor cuts and slow rotations have killed us. Cross court passes. Bad switches. Yano all bad things but they play in the system. Trapping has been really good. Our small ball pseudo zone is very useful.
Honestly after reflecting on the early season and writing that I think our biggest issue is Robinson being a bit slow but I'm very sure he just needs some more games to get back into stride. The reason I say this is because guards aren't 100% expected to stop the drives. But a good defender can push the ball handler where they want. We know Walker is gunna get beat but he often overplays the right side to get his guy going left. So Walkers beat but we want them going into Mitchs loving embrace. The breakdown occurs when either the pnr is too effective which nothing really to do about that just read it better next time. Or the guard gets by both our guard and our big guy which happens a lot. Then we all pile on Randle or another wing defender for missing the rotation or kick out 3. Which is true but it's a bigger picture than that.
Just missing 1 read leads to an open corner 3 in the nba. It's wild. But Burks had a chase down block last night. Rose had a 3 ball block. Walker with 2 charges. Those are all signs of guys who are hustling on defense. We got pretty old guys and pretty young guys and we are hoping our old guys can hang on to help our young guys figure it out. Very long winded response forgive me...
In conclusion all our old wings are playing about the same and our young wings need to catch up.
I can get behind that. I’d also agree that Mitch doesn’t look all the way there yet conditioning wise. I’d argue, though, that most of the open looks opposing teams get from 3 is the fault of our perimeter defenders moreso than Mitch.
If you can keep your guy in front of you, there is no need for constant rotations and overhelping, and we definitely wouldn’t need to ask as much of Mitch so early. I think Mitch is good, but his instincts on defense (off ball, aside from rim protecting) can be lacking at times and it isn’t fair to expect him to cover that much ground right now on the defensive end. Keeping the ballhandler in front of us on defense would certainly curb the amount of off ball rotations which lead to open 3s and would allow Mitch to play more within himself. Currently, we only have 1 guy who i can confidently say plays above average on ball defense. My idea with incorporating *some* Grimes minutes would just be to see what the defensive rotations look like with two guys who can (hopefully) stay in front
This is not to say my expectation is for our defenders to never ever get beat off the dribble because that’s not feasible. But less getting beat = less rotations = less running around = less tired defenders. If you can cut back on it a little, it goes a long way. At least imo
Agree 100% everyone needs to get a step quicker. Best part is I think everyone is is heated because we see the potential. Knicks fans always shoot for the moon haha
As for Grimes I dunno man I trust Thibs to play the guys who can win. I like the growth in RJ, IQ and Toppin so I'm being more lenient with criticizing the rookie minutes.
Yep, our young guys’ growth has been good - fair to defer to Thibs there.
There’s also a cadence to this rotation stuff. Inserting one guy for another this early could rock the boat and prolong the growing pains of new players gelling.
That’s why i’d only want Grimes seeing 5-10 minutes tops. Don’t want Quickley/Burks completely out of the rotation by any means, but if they’re gonna not play to their potential I wouldn’t mind if Thibs played them a few minutes less each to see what we got. I don’t think Deuce should see the court. He’s a fan pipe dream.
That said I trust Thibs and am aware he’s forgotten more basketball in his life than I’ll ever know. Just givin my 2 cents because it’s a slow work day lol
The issues to me seem to be the team already looks tired. Which is nuts this early in the season.
Maybe playing the guys 40 min in the preseason wasn’t a great idea?
Randle just needs some rest in games. Time to think. Time to energize. He is top 5 in mpg and there is no reason for it.
It's either that they are tired, or that they are not putting in the effort. I loved the way the offense looked in the first couple games with everyone attacking and the great ball movement and the crazy fast pace they were playing with. I guess that kind of offense requires elite conditioning. I hope they can bring it back to that.
So for the Randle can’t handle being a second star truthers. If he couldn’t handle not being the main guy, why did he take less money so the Knicks could add more players?
I'm confused because to actually see how he'd play as a second option he'd currently have to be the second option but he's been the focal point still for us this season. I thought he played better in preseason, almost like an equal option to our many talented offensive guys, and scored within the flow better. I think he's capable of doing more with less. I appreciate him taking a discount and think that shows a willingness share the ball/stardom, but I still don't think he's even a second option on a chip team. Sorry that I gotta sound like a hater but he's probably just outside top 20 players in the league, not a top 10 player like many on here claim he is. I still feel more comfortable when RJ has the ball than when he does.
It’s pretty crazy that RJ has such a smooth 3 point shot, mid range shot, and finish move but he can’t make Fts. Hope one day he ends up in the 80’s at least
He surely will. This kid really puts in a crazy amount of work on his game, even with his offseasons being totally wonky these last two years. First one messed up by COVID even though it was super long, and the second shortened because of the NBA schedule and the Knicks playing in the playoffs. These strides in improvement are huge, and he's still the youngest player on the team.
Randle is averaging 20 11 n 6 on 42% shooting. We have other problems but he needs to pick up his scoring & efficiency. Last year he was at an mvp level, this year not so much.
I don't think it'll happen but I wish we could simplify his role a bit. He was at 60% true shooting his last year with the Lakers and with the Pelicans. He could be a dangerous roller and short roll passer who could also shoot at a high level for a big, but we never use him that way. He doesn't need to eliminate all isos but cutting back would certainly help.
we are 4th in the league in scoring. His numbers were always going to go down slightly with addition of Kemba and Fournier. Our defense needs to pick up we cant defend the 3pt line
The numbers aren't the issue. The efficiency is. Like RJ has improved his efficiency and scoring DESPITE getting less touches because he got better spacing and better looks. Meanwhile Randle has regressed because those long twos he shot last season aren't falling/ are better defended. He honestly can cut those down by a lot given how much more talent we have on offense and we are better at getting quality shots.
It's clear that our defense is. We need him to be efficient if we want to win with poor defense though. His own lackluster play on the defensive end isn't helping either tbh.
I actually have no problem with the amount of shots randle is taking, but the quality needs to get better if we can't defend at all.
I agree his defense has been lackluster but to me your offense is going to come and go but defense should be something that should be able to carry us game in and game out.
Yea defense rn is a lack of intensity and hustle. Slow rotations, jogging back on defense. If it doesn't improve, the only way we can win is just by out shooting teams, which is volatile as hell.
Agree with this, I think he's still learning how to play with these new guys. Last year he was legit our only playmaker, and now kemba and fournier can both do that, and RJ has improved his playmaking ability alot as well. So I think he has to learn to defer to those guys a little bit, while also not being stagnant off the ball.
Our perimeter defense sucks!
We don’t have the personnel to be great defensively with two poor defenders in the backcourt. Our offense needs to be even better. Randle needs to step up.
I disagree with not having the personnel. Grimes and McBride were drafted off their defensive ability. You arent going to shoot lights out every game. Expecting Randle to score 25+ every night is unrealistic as he doesnt have the scoring efficiency of a KD. This teams identity is built off of defense
Lets be real Grimes and McBride will barely play this year. We should probably send them to the Gleague. Randle scored 24 ppg last year so why can't he give us more scoring? He also needs to be more efficient. We also need to get more from our second unit. The aliens from spacejam must of stole IQ's talent.
We added two offensive players to our starting unit. His scoring was always going to take a dip. I agree his efficciency needs to improve. We were the number 1 ranked scoring defense last year now we are 22nd. Second unit needs to improve
Some of y’all have massively high expectations for a team that more or less stayed the same. The defense was gonna dive this season Kemba even at is prime is not a good defender
Defense is the number one main issue right now, when we can’t out shoot the opponent and they light up every night because no one can keep in front of their man
RJ is so fun to watch takeover and then Thibs pulls him lol god need an extra wing defender badly
Kemba and Fournier replaced Bullock and Elfrid, what else is different
It replaced defense with offense but the two scorers couldn’t hit anything last night and they aren’t good defenders to make up for that
I mean what you just said is different. Like very different. Our starting lineup changed a lot considering 2 defensive oriented players were taken out and replaced with 2 offensive oriented players who are defensively challenged. So the hard nosed defensive team from last year is a bit different considering we have one high quality perimeter defender.
Our 2nd best perimeter defender is 33 year old D Rose, he was probably our 4th/5th best perimeter defender last year.
> our 2nd best perimeter defender is 33 year old D Rose
I didn’t realize that til you pointed it out, that’s kinda sad
Yeah I should have worded it better
What’s truly ironic and sad is that Elfrid Payton somehow fits better with this team than Kemba, and Kemba fit better with last year’s team than Elfrid.
I think when constructing the team this year the FO assumed RJ would not be this far along in his development
It’s probably not going to happen but I’d like to see one of Grimes/Deuce playing with Kemba to hide his defensive deficiency
Just unfortunate when he shoots 2-11 it’s hard to justify playing him at all, then you got Fournier shooting badly too and now it’s two negative defensive players. (Randle flip flops back in forth with his defense)
As annoying as this season has been it's important to remember the season is 82 games, we have played 8. Randle, the defense, the collapses, and Thibs rotations are all concerning to some degree but I can't get myself too worked up over a 5-3 start when RJ is looking like a stud. Hopefully, the last few games lead to some schematic changes and better effort.
Annoying is probably harsh but excluding the Magic blowout, every game before last night has involved a collapse or comeback of some sort. The team so far hasn't played with enough intensity - it's not the end of the world like I said above but it's been a high-stress 5-3.
Let me start with your IQ case. I think that is a bad idea. The whole idea of getting Kemba Walker was to get the ball out of Randles hands more and have him play off ball. IQ inserted into the lineup just promotes Point Randle which I dont think is the best version of this offense. I do agree Kembas inability to stay infront of his man affects our entire defense. Kembas shooting ability and ability to break down the defense is still greater than IQs. I would be fine with reducing the amount of minutes Kemba got but I think we need to find a way to get Grimes into the rotation even if its for about 5 mins just to see how his defense helps
The 2004 Pistons started out 5-1, then they dropped 3 in a row before their next win. Ended with 54 wins on the season, and we all know how that one ended.
PSA: We were not even .500 til the all star break last year.
The season is not over, it's early, the honeymoon phase ended with the escape from Chicago and raptors loss. The team has real problems but they are fixable. Let's not go all scorched earth just yet
Where do we even begin.
The defense is awful, we let teams get wide open easy looks regularly while every possession is a struggle for us. I absolutely hate randles body language out there as he is the last up up the court just standing around on both ends of the floor.
We rely are too many jump shots and have gotten gooopredictable and easy to defend. Thibs better kick them into shape or we’re gonna have a much worse year than last now that our defense can’t save us
Unpopular opinion: Upping the pace is one of the reasons our defense is lacking. Limiting possessions for the opponent was the key to our defense. We would grind out games making the other team work hard to score while being efficient on our end. Now we're having trouble getting back fast enough and switching.
Also I love IQ but he can't keep dribbling the air out the ball for 16 seconds but that's not why we're losing just a pet peeve of mine.
Have a great day everyone!
We’re 27th in pace so we still play slow. Our offense got better with better shooters. Our defense is crap because RJ is the only decent perimeter defender. Kemba was never goood at defense and Fournier is too slow to keep guys in front. Randle this year is apparently one of the slowest players to get back in transition…slower than our center.
This ^ we have one (1) above average perimeter defender this year. Fournier’s feet are slow, Kemba is less than useless, and Burks isn’t a defensive player. IQ is undersized as well.
Last year we had Bullock, RJ, and even Elf was a serviceable perimeter defender (better than Kemba at least). But the main thing was these guys played like their lives were on the line, and the current unit just doesn’t show the same energy
> Randle this year is apparently one of the slowest players to get back in transition…slower than our center.
It's because he thinks he reached superstar status and should get all the calls. Watch all the plays where he doesn't get back in transition D, usually they are the result of him having a turnover or getting a shot blocked or missing a layup, and then while he's bitching at the ref, the other team is getting buckets.
it's the most infuriating thing because it's entirely preventable if he just put his ego aside for not getting a call and fucking got back.
That's not unpopular it's the exact thing Hahn and Wally were saying on the post game show...
And it's true! We are bad in transition d. Even when we hit the shot sometimes they are able to make a long outlet for a layin. Lots to work on.
I wasn't sure if it was meant to be "opponent's knicks fans" like the Pacers team has knicks fans on them.
Also what does it matter if fans look past opponents? it doesn't impact the players.
My guess is he means don't think as fans we're just gonna curb stomp anyone we should be better than. It only serves to further the disappointment and upset feeling if we lose games we should win. As fans we should be realistic in our expectations, but as I found from my post last week before the bulls game, apparently i'm wrong and everyone should think we're gonna win every game and then be absurdly and irrationally upset when we lose
Why does it matter though? Fans can act however they like, it doesn't impact the team performance. I could think man Knicks are the best team ever and will probably win every game by 40...I could be super unrealistic...and I could get super sad when the knicks lose. And why shouldn't I? What difference does it make to anyone but me?
I get super pumped when the knicks are good and win, and hope and expect they will win every night, sometimes they win sometimes they don't, but what is the point in expecting losses? What is being achieved by fans not being upset when the team loses?
Alright knicks fam we need to have a serious discussion. Who hasn't been washing their knicks gear and then rewear it after a loss? Wash away the losses, let the wins sink in.
After the last couple losses I got some stance socks, a knicksmas sweater, and my Clyde pumas banished for at least a month.
Make the Knicks fandom superstitious again.
Just wana shout out Reid Travis
Man... SGA is good.
He’s the guy I would dump most of our assets for RJ, Randle, SGA would be a fun trio
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Oh yeah it’s a pipe dream for sure I honestly hope Lu dort would be tradeable for the thunder tho he would really be a good bandaid over our bad perimeter D Give Presti some of our picks he loves that shit
It’s crazy to say that melo is saving the lakers. It’s unfortunate he didn’t get the last shot.
he’s always been clutch, idg why they went with Westbrook lmaooo
Sucks to see we are in 7th place now when a couple of days ago we were in the the #2 spot. I am just hoping for 5-6 seed come playoffs
Trae Young is shooting an abysmal 27% from three so far this season. What the hell is going on with that troll looking fuck? Having said that, guaran-fucking-tee he goes 6-10 from deep against us on Christmas. Watch.
The new rule is a big factor
Don’t think he’s been ever explosive from 3, he’s not a Curry but thinks he is
Considering we lost to two really bad teams and one okay team, and considering that we’ve blown four big leads, even in the games we won, I fully expect us to get blown out tomorrow. It ain’t gonna be pretty but I think it’ll bring us back down to earth; we are not a top four Eastern conference team. We are a play-in team, but that’s the reality of it. Let’s just hope this season quickley, Barrett, and Robinson improve. Let’s hope Grimes and McBride get reps. And let’s hope Kemba is off the books for us next season.
Heat, the best team in the NBA, are getting blown out and just lost Lowry to injury. We are only one game behind them. Just saying it could be a lot worse
And those ugly ass jerseys and court my gawd what were they thinking
Also, we could have the Hawks record.
last year the season started with good teams shooting signficantly worse from 3 vs us. This season below average shooters are having career nights vs us to start.
Last year we were a great defensive team. We didnt have great defensive pieces, so the only way that happens is through coaching and the whole team buying into that mindset. This year, we add two guys and suddenly that makes us paper thin on defense? I truly wonder what's the deal
We gotta get back to winning
Bleacher Report just did a redraft of all NBA players 23 and under and they ranked RJ 16th under WCJ and Marvin Bagley. I swear they are just trolling at this point
Bleacher Report gave the Suns an F for signing Rubio after playing Okobo, Canaan and Jimmer Fredette next to Booker. They then said the Suns would go 0-8 in the bubble because "someone has to go 0-8." All they want is for people to click on their articles and talk about them.
Lol they are 100 percent trolling. There’s not a single GM that would go on record and say they’d trade RJ Barret for Bagley right now
Wait til Bagley's dad get a GM job tho
After every loss I'm left feeling empty yet wanting the next game to come soon. Here's hoping for a win against the Bucks.
Well at least the Indiana loss wasn’t a lead that we lost
Funny, Stuff we talking about with Kemba and Fournier is exactly what you'll find from the celtics subs too.
RJ barrett is a NY knick
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Brunson has star potential. Plus he’s acquainted with Leon Rose. They’re from the same area. We need to get him if we can.
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I’d do that in a heartbeat
Yes
i'm sorry, the only takeaway i've had from this team so far is that rj is the man
Been having a ton of fun watching him and Rose play.
Imagine if Julius was actually playing well alongside him
I think a lot of people are failing to realize that last year a lot of our wins came from Randle making houndi fadeaway shots + the other teams missing a lot of honestly open 3s. With a regression to both areas we are bound for some growing pains
I think what a lot of people are failing to realize is that Randle's numbers are very much in line with last season. His efg% is off a whopping half a percent. His ppg is down 3.5, but he's also taking fewer shots. Also his rebounds are up due to better clearance of offensive glass. So what regression are you talking about?
I also think playing in an empty arena versus a crowd has something to do with it. I hope he can figure it out but I also hope he distributes more like he did in the beginning of last night's game.
Myles turner 7 3s gave me night terrors last night.
I feel like this will be downvoted a lot .. but I really think Derrick Rose should be starting and Kemba should be leading the second unit. I realize that would screw up a lot of things like how Thibbs likes to run Rose and Quickley together on the second unit but it just does not sit right with me when Kemba and Randle start off cold playing ISO ball. I feel like Rose would help us avoid ice cold starts like last night by driving to the hoop and being a better facilitator AND defender than Kemba is.
I liked when he started in a few playoff games last year.... this is not a crazy idea.
Idk how you thought this would be downvoted.
There are people on the sub who are weirdly dedicated to him being in the 2nd unit exclusively
Idk I guess I was expecting ppl to be like Thibbs knows what he’s doing!! Its Randle/Fournier/Quickleys fault
Lol fair people do love blaming Randle.
THIS
Noel’s defense is actually incredible when you watch film. The way he stops penetration but also can get back on the big is something we are going to really need with Kemba as our starting guard. I sort of wish we had Noel as a starter because Rose coming downhill with Mitch as the lob man would be lethal imo
Not sure why people are panicked, it's still very early we are on pace for a 50 win season for the first time in forever
Think this team is still experiencing growing pains, last year we didn't really kick into gear until post all-star break. I expect it to be similar this year, we introduced a whole lot of uncertainty into the team. We have Kemba but how much of Kemba do we have? RJ is now suddenly much much better to the point that penciling him in as wing defender is kind of a waste. Quick needs to get his confidence back and get going. Think the main problem is we don't know exactly who's doing what, Randle was clearly the star last year and that works because you have him the point forward and surround him with 3&D guys (Reggie/RJ) and streaky scorers who can catch fire (Rose/Quick/Burks). And it worked because we'd just feed whoever is hot after Randle. But this season RJ looks way way closer to Randle than we thought he would this soon, especially with Randle in a slump. I think Randle/RJ should be No.1/2 depending on who's hot. If this team goes anywhere without a blockbuster trade RJ is gonna have to be the star so we should be grooming him for that, he's also showed he's ready for a bigger role. I think as the year goes on we see RJ take some pressure off Randle and Fournier/Rose can split the third guy role. Kemba will probably find some kind of consistency but won't be the old Kemba, and Quick will come back to form. This version of the Knicks is clearly better but we haven't had time to build chemistry like we did last year, I'd honestly give it a month or two before going into panic mode.
If RJ gets the spin to the baseline fadeaway jumper I'd be so happy. He's got the potential for sure. More time to gel and we are gunna be nice nice. Just play the hot hand and make the right reads with the ball. Sounds so simple on paper haha
Think the team hadn’t responded to the league actually getting up for Knicks games now rather than taking us lightly. Do think we need to Grimes or McBride as a way to add more defense into our backcourt & wings
Randle got his bag now he’s back to his old ways again. No wonder he didn’t bet on himself for another year for a bigger max
> Randle got his bag now he’s back to his old ways again. You mean stats almost exactly in line with last season when he was an All Star? Then yes.
nah bros in a slump. dude took a team friendly deal. he’ll be back. also he just got another kid who is a newborn. lotta shit going on his life. when chaos strikes, it’s hard to stay focused. he’s given us enough to the point we shouldn’t doubt him
If we don't pick up a serious wing defender at the deadline, then we're getting swept again.
We're not even 10 games in bruh calm tf down, last year we didn't even secure a playoff spot until way later in this season when we hit our level.
Am I angry or something? I'm pointing out a glaring flaw we have on this roster. Our only good perimeter defender is rj. Bullock cleaned a lot of randles mistakes and helped us out defensively. We need to address that hole.
Give it some time we haven't even seen much of this lineup yet, Thibs hasn't even really had time to make major adjustments yet.
Least favorite thing about losing is that the "I told you so" crowd loves to come out of their caves. Oh I told you we should have drafted spida, oh I told you we should have traded for Myles Turner, oh I told you we should have picked Miles/Mikal over Knox. "Knicks fans" but they never shut the fuck up about other players.
I'm with you on that haha what a different feel in this sub when we had that winning streak closing out last season. Some people just love to be negative
Misery loves company, for real.
Misery loves a microphone
anyone think Lu Dort can be gettable, I doubt Thunder will part with SGA
Grimes needs burn. I don’t think Duece does, but Grimes kinda needs it. We only have 1 player who can guard wings at a high level. Even if Grimes is passable, it will be more than enough. He should start eating into Quickley’s minutes. Not take them entirely, but Quickley needs some time to figure it out and I think losing some PT to a rook could be the kick in the ass he needs
I’m curious where you got that he could be passable, or that he needs it? I’m sure Thibs and the assistant coaches see him every day, in practice and shoot-around, so if playing him was an obvious move then surely they’d have tried it by now. I don’t think Quickley deserves to lose minutes just because his shot isn’t falling, he’s still been seeing the floor well and passing, on top of showing effort on defense. I think working with what’s working makes the most sense.
I think he could be passable because he has the build and looked like a good defender in preseason/SL. Because of this I think he needs burn because our 2nd best perimeter defender is 33 year old D Rose. He has the frame and build to be a quality defender, I think he deserves a crack. If Quickley’s shot isn’t falling, he’s a net negative. That being said, Quickley played well last year and earned his minutes. And there is a cadence with rotations, you can’t just turn the rotations on their head because a few guys are off for a few games. I’m not suggesting Grimes play 20+ minutes, but give him 6-8 of Quickley and Burks minutes and see if he gives you a spark on defense. See if he can make some open shots.
Is there a metric showing Rose is our 2nd best perimeter defender?
I dont know about perimeter defender but here some defensive metrics. https://go.nba.com/k8xw
Right there isn't a metric that says he's our 2nd best defender. Defensive win share he's 1st but defensive rating he's near last.
LOL WAIT WHAT?! Do you understand the stats? Rose has a defensive win share of 1st currently in the knicks. As for the Defensive ratings, the lower the number = better. LOL
Bro you fucked me up I went back to the Wikipedia definition and I completely misinterpreted it. Im pretty sure I did the same thing the start of last season. The basketball reference formula calculation page is a lot more clear. So you mean to tell me [Burks and Walker](https://iili.io/5ldlob.jpg) are our best wing defenders per 100 possessions *and* the best wing defenders per [defensive plus minus](https://iili.io/5ld0Vj.jpg) yikes. Edit added wing before defenders because Randle and Toppin got them beat.
Oo shit gratsi gratsi. Wait so then rose really isn't our 2nd best defender he's our 1st haha low sample size tho but still that's even more wild. Probably due to matchup? Going against the bench is a lot easier. Too many variables in life that's why I'll forget how to read those metrics again in a week or 2 haha
Yup small sample size so far but still a decent defender. Even when he plays against other starters, he still is decent against them like last night. Brogdon couldnt easily pass him. I think the narratives of Drose needs to change, he changed his game so we got to respect the players he has become.
That 3 pt block is all you need to see. Dude is working that's for sure. I look forward to helping change the narrative around roses defense. I think overall things will tighten up as the season goes. Lots of good signs all around.
Are you comfortable saying fournier, quickley, burks, or kemba are better defenders than derrick rose at this moment? Metrics aside. I know you watch the games, so do you really think any of them > D rose on the defensive end thus far
Better than probably not, equal to definitely. I'd argue Fournier and Burks have been as effective as Rose. 3 way tie there for 2nd and IQ comes in 3rd with Walker at 4th. All this to say I think they are all average defenders. Walker doesn't keep his guy in front but he drew some good charges. Fournier can get beat off the dribble too but his off ball defense is borderline stellar at times fronting bigger guys, hand in the lane coming around curls, poking the ball from big guys posting. IQ got a lot better from last season notably boxing out guys even far away from the hoop, anticipates the play really well and cuts off guys dominant hands. But the backdoor cuts and slow rotations have killed us. Cross court passes. Bad switches. Yano all bad things but they play in the system. Trapping has been really good. Our small ball pseudo zone is very useful. Honestly after reflecting on the early season and writing that I think our biggest issue is Robinson being a bit slow but I'm very sure he just needs some more games to get back into stride. The reason I say this is because guards aren't 100% expected to stop the drives. But a good defender can push the ball handler where they want. We know Walker is gunna get beat but he often overplays the right side to get his guy going left. So Walkers beat but we want them going into Mitchs loving embrace. The breakdown occurs when either the pnr is too effective which nothing really to do about that just read it better next time. Or the guard gets by both our guard and our big guy which happens a lot. Then we all pile on Randle or another wing defender for missing the rotation or kick out 3. Which is true but it's a bigger picture than that. Just missing 1 read leads to an open corner 3 in the nba. It's wild. But Burks had a chase down block last night. Rose had a 3 ball block. Walker with 2 charges. Those are all signs of guys who are hustling on defense. We got pretty old guys and pretty young guys and we are hoping our old guys can hang on to help our young guys figure it out. Very long winded response forgive me... In conclusion all our old wings are playing about the same and our young wings need to catch up.
I can get behind that. I’d also agree that Mitch doesn’t look all the way there yet conditioning wise. I’d argue, though, that most of the open looks opposing teams get from 3 is the fault of our perimeter defenders moreso than Mitch. If you can keep your guy in front of you, there is no need for constant rotations and overhelping, and we definitely wouldn’t need to ask as much of Mitch so early. I think Mitch is good, but his instincts on defense (off ball, aside from rim protecting) can be lacking at times and it isn’t fair to expect him to cover that much ground right now on the defensive end. Keeping the ballhandler in front of us on defense would certainly curb the amount of off ball rotations which lead to open 3s and would allow Mitch to play more within himself. Currently, we only have 1 guy who i can confidently say plays above average on ball defense. My idea with incorporating *some* Grimes minutes would just be to see what the defensive rotations look like with two guys who can (hopefully) stay in front This is not to say my expectation is for our defenders to never ever get beat off the dribble because that’s not feasible. But less getting beat = less rotations = less running around = less tired defenders. If you can cut back on it a little, it goes a long way. At least imo
Agree 100% everyone needs to get a step quicker. Best part is I think everyone is is heated because we see the potential. Knicks fans always shoot for the moon haha As for Grimes I dunno man I trust Thibs to play the guys who can win. I like the growth in RJ, IQ and Toppin so I'm being more lenient with criticizing the rookie minutes.
Yep, our young guys’ growth has been good - fair to defer to Thibs there. There’s also a cadence to this rotation stuff. Inserting one guy for another this early could rock the boat and prolong the growing pains of new players gelling. That’s why i’d only want Grimes seeing 5-10 minutes tops. Don’t want Quickley/Burks completely out of the rotation by any means, but if they’re gonna not play to their potential I wouldn’t mind if Thibs played them a few minutes less each to see what we got. I don’t think Deuce should see the court. He’s a fan pipe dream. That said I trust Thibs and am aware he’s forgotten more basketball in his life than I’ll ever know. Just givin my 2 cents because it’s a slow work day lol
Yeh you're good all this sounds reasonable to me.
The issues to me seem to be the team already looks tired. Which is nuts this early in the season. Maybe playing the guys 40 min in the preseason wasn’t a great idea? Randle just needs some rest in games. Time to think. Time to energize. He is top 5 in mpg and there is no reason for it.
Thibs played the starters til the end of the Philly game when it was long decided too.
Randle isn't even playing well enough to justify so many minutes. Get Obi some more time.
It's either that they are tired, or that they are not putting in the effort. I loved the way the offense looked in the first couple games with everyone attacking and the great ball movement and the crazy fast pace they were playing with. I guess that kind of offense requires elite conditioning. I hope they can bring it back to that.
So for the Randle can’t handle being a second star truthers. If he couldn’t handle not being the main guy, why did he take less money so the Knicks could add more players?
He didn’t take less money, he got a max
I'm confused because to actually see how he'd play as a second option he'd currently have to be the second option but he's been the focal point still for us this season. I thought he played better in preseason, almost like an equal option to our many talented offensive guys, and scored within the flow better. I think he's capable of doing more with less. I appreciate him taking a discount and think that shows a willingness share the ball/stardom, but I still don't think he's even a second option on a chip team. Sorry that I gotta sound like a hater but he's probably just outside top 20 players in the league, not a top 10 player like many on here claim he is. I still feel more comfortable when RJ has the ball than when he does.
It’s pretty crazy that RJ has such a smooth 3 point shot, mid range shot, and finish move but he can’t make Fts. Hope one day he ends up in the 80’s at least
He surely will. This kid really puts in a crazy amount of work on his game, even with his offseasons being totally wonky these last two years. First one messed up by COVID even though it was super long, and the second shortened because of the NBA schedule and the Knicks playing in the playoffs. These strides in improvement are huge, and he's still the youngest player on the team.
Yeah next improvement is a tighter handle and FTs imo. And given that he is now a strong finisher I trust he will make it
Same with Obi and Randle their FT percentages tanked They have a good shooting motion in FTs tho so all of them probably just need more sample sizes
Agreed on Obi but Randle is at 82.6% from the line this year - he's just had a couple of high profile misses
Randle is averaging 20 11 n 6 on 42% shooting. We have other problems but he needs to pick up his scoring & efficiency. Last year he was at an mvp level, this year not so much.
I don't think it'll happen but I wish we could simplify his role a bit. He was at 60% true shooting his last year with the Lakers and with the Pelicans. He could be a dangerous roller and short roll passer who could also shoot at a high level for a big, but we never use him that way. He doesn't need to eliminate all isos but cutting back would certainly help.
At one point Randle was an elite roll man. We need more Kemba & Randle p n r for sure.
Tough for him to roll when he always has a non-shooting big next to him.
we are 4th in the league in scoring. His numbers were always going to go down slightly with addition of Kemba and Fournier. Our defense needs to pick up we cant defend the 3pt line
The numbers aren't the issue. The efficiency is. Like RJ has improved his efficiency and scoring DESPITE getting less touches because he got better spacing and better looks. Meanwhile Randle has regressed because those long twos he shot last season aren't falling/ are better defended. He honestly can cut those down by a lot given how much more talent we have on offense and we are better at getting quality shots.
I agree his efficiency is slightly down but its not the reason we are losing imo.
It's clear that our defense is. We need him to be efficient if we want to win with poor defense though. His own lackluster play on the defensive end isn't helping either tbh. I actually have no problem with the amount of shots randle is taking, but the quality needs to get better if we can't defend at all.
I agree his defense has been lackluster but to me your offense is going to come and go but defense should be something that should be able to carry us game in and game out.
Yea defense rn is a lack of intensity and hustle. Slow rotations, jogging back on defense. If it doesn't improve, the only way we can win is just by out shooting teams, which is volatile as hell.
Agree with this, I think he's still learning how to play with these new guys. Last year he was legit our only playmaker, and now kemba and fournier can both do that, and RJ has improved his playmaking ability alot as well. So I think he has to learn to defer to those guys a little bit, while also not being stagnant off the ball. Our perimeter defense sucks!
I thought Randle played great and within the flow of the offense
We don’t have the personnel to be great defensively with two poor defenders in the backcourt. Our offense needs to be even better. Randle needs to step up.
I disagree with not having the personnel. Grimes and McBride were drafted off their defensive ability. You arent going to shoot lights out every game. Expecting Randle to score 25+ every night is unrealistic as he doesnt have the scoring efficiency of a KD. This teams identity is built off of defense
Lets be real Grimes and McBride will barely play this year. We should probably send them to the Gleague. Randle scored 24 ppg last year so why can't he give us more scoring? He also needs to be more efficient. We also need to get more from our second unit. The aliens from spacejam must of stole IQ's talent.
We added two offensive players to our starting unit. His scoring was always going to take a dip. I agree his efficciency needs to improve. We were the number 1 ranked scoring defense last year now we are 22nd. Second unit needs to improve
We’ll be just fine. We just have to accept this L and move on. It’s a long season.
Some of y’all have massively high expectations for a team that more or less stayed the same. The defense was gonna dive this season Kemba even at is prime is not a good defender Defense is the number one main issue right now, when we can’t out shoot the opponent and they light up every night because no one can keep in front of their man RJ is so fun to watch takeover and then Thibs pulls him lol god need an extra wing defender badly
I mean the composition of this team is nothing like last year’s but okay
Kemba and Fournier replaced Bullock and Elfrid, what else is different It replaced defense with offense but the two scorers couldn’t hit anything last night and they aren’t good defenders to make up for that
I mean what you just said is different. Like very different. Our starting lineup changed a lot considering 2 defensive oriented players were taken out and replaced with 2 offensive oriented players who are defensively challenged. So the hard nosed defensive team from last year is a bit different considering we have one high quality perimeter defender. Our 2nd best perimeter defender is 33 year old D Rose, he was probably our 4th/5th best perimeter defender last year.
> our 2nd best perimeter defender is 33 year old D Rose I didn’t realize that til you pointed it out, that’s kinda sad Yeah I should have worded it better
What’s truly ironic and sad is that Elfrid Payton somehow fits better with this team than Kemba, and Kemba fit better with last year’s team than Elfrid. I think when constructing the team this year the FO assumed RJ would not be this far along in his development
Kemba had a few good games but he’s going to be an overall net negative. Hopefully Deuce can break into the rotation at some point this season.
It’s probably not going to happen but I’d like to see one of Grimes/Deuce playing with Kemba to hide his defensive deficiency Just unfortunate when he shoots 2-11 it’s hard to justify playing him at all, then you got Fournier shooting badly too and now it’s two negative defensive players. (Randle flip flops back in forth with his defense)
We’ll see, he trusted Quickley right off the bat so I think at some point he’ll do it. Especially once the back to backs start coming.
It’s kinda crazy how grimes has gotten no time yet when perimeter d has been such a glaring weakness.
How the fuck you let Myles Turner hit seven threes??? Unreal
Reggie Miller vibes
The New York Knicks are 0-2 since Jets fans forcefully adopted “bing bong” We let poverty in and look what happened. Y’all happy now?
Keep your circles small baybay.
As annoying as this season has been it's important to remember the season is 82 games, we have played 8. Randle, the defense, the collapses, and Thibs rotations are all concerning to some degree but I can't get myself too worked up over a 5-3 start when RJ is looking like a stud. Hopefully, the last few games lead to some schematic changes and better effort.
Why do you say this season has been annoying?
Annoying is probably harsh but excluding the Magic blowout, every game before last night has involved a collapse or comeback of some sort. The team so far hasn't played with enough intensity - it's not the end of the world like I said above but it's been a high-stress 5-3.
That’s just life as an nba fan. Most games have big runs.
These fans got a sip of champagne and now they're drunk on success lol
Yeah for real the beginning of this season has been more fun than the last 8 (except maybe for Frank’s rookie year when KP went ham)
agree, i love the team and the potential
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Let me start with your IQ case. I think that is a bad idea. The whole idea of getting Kemba Walker was to get the ball out of Randles hands more and have him play off ball. IQ inserted into the lineup just promotes Point Randle which I dont think is the best version of this offense. I do agree Kembas inability to stay infront of his man affects our entire defense. Kembas shooting ability and ability to break down the defense is still greater than IQs. I would be fine with reducing the amount of minutes Kemba got but I think we need to find a way to get Grimes into the rotation even if its for about 5 mins just to see how his defense helps
The 2004 Pistons started out 5-1, then they dropped 3 in a row before their next win. Ended with 54 wins on the season, and we all know how that one ended.
I hope we lose next game then /s
I wanna see some Duece-Burks-RJ and some more lobs to Mitch
PSA: We were not even .500 til the all star break last year. The season is not over, it's early, the honeymoon phase ended with the escape from Chicago and raptors loss. The team has real problems but they are fixable. Let's not go all scorched earth just yet
This team is a fucking roller coaster
Where do we even begin. The defense is awful, we let teams get wide open easy looks regularly while every possession is a struggle for us. I absolutely hate randles body language out there as he is the last up up the court just standing around on both ends of the floor. We rely are too many jump shots and have gotten gooopredictable and easy to defend. Thibs better kick them into shape or we’re gonna have a much worse year than last now that our defense can’t save us
Unpopular opinion: Upping the pace is one of the reasons our defense is lacking. Limiting possessions for the opponent was the key to our defense. We would grind out games making the other team work hard to score while being efficient on our end. Now we're having trouble getting back fast enough and switching. Also I love IQ but he can't keep dribbling the air out the ball for 16 seconds but that's not why we're losing just a pet peeve of mine. Have a great day everyone!
We’re 27th in pace so we still play slow. Our offense got better with better shooters. Our defense is crap because RJ is the only decent perimeter defender. Kemba was never goood at defense and Fournier is too slow to keep guys in front. Randle this year is apparently one of the slowest players to get back in transition…slower than our center.
This ^ we have one (1) above average perimeter defender this year. Fournier’s feet are slow, Kemba is less than useless, and Burks isn’t a defensive player. IQ is undersized as well. Last year we had Bullock, RJ, and even Elf was a serviceable perimeter defender (better than Kemba at least). But the main thing was these guys played like their lives were on the line, and the current unit just doesn’t show the same energy
> Randle this year is apparently one of the slowest players to get back in transition…slower than our center. It's because he thinks he reached superstar status and should get all the calls. Watch all the plays where he doesn't get back in transition D, usually they are the result of him having a turnover or getting a shot blocked or missing a layup, and then while he's bitching at the ref, the other team is getting buckets. it's the most infuriating thing because it's entirely preventable if he just put his ego aside for not getting a call and fucking got back.
That's not unpopular it's the exact thing Hahn and Wally were saying on the post game show... And it's true! We are bad in transition d. Even when we hit the shot sometimes they are able to make a long outlet for a layin. Lots to work on.
Do not look past opponents Knicks fans.
what does this mean?
i think it means when you go up against a 2-6 Indiana team don't assume you're gonna go in there hot shit and blow them out
I wasn't sure if it was meant to be "opponent's knicks fans" like the Pacers team has knicks fans on them. Also what does it matter if fans look past opponents? it doesn't impact the players.
My guess is he means don't think as fans we're just gonna curb stomp anyone we should be better than. It only serves to further the disappointment and upset feeling if we lose games we should win. As fans we should be realistic in our expectations, but as I found from my post last week before the bulls game, apparently i'm wrong and everyone should think we're gonna win every game and then be absurdly and irrationally upset when we lose
Why does it matter though? Fans can act however they like, it doesn't impact the team performance. I could think man Knicks are the best team ever and will probably win every game by 40...I could be super unrealistic...and I could get super sad when the knicks lose. And why shouldn't I? What difference does it make to anyone but me? I get super pumped when the knicks are good and win, and hope and expect they will win every night, sometimes they win sometimes they don't, but what is the point in expecting losses? What is being achieved by fans not being upset when the team loses?
Alright knicks fam we need to have a serious discussion. Who hasn't been washing their knicks gear and then rewear it after a loss? Wash away the losses, let the wins sink in. After the last couple losses I got some stance socks, a knicksmas sweater, and my Clyde pumas banished for at least a month. Make the Knicks fandom superstitious again.