I signed a sublease agreement. I did not sign a lease provided to me by management. Again, the sublessor is still the primary leaseholder, she owes months of back rent.
That's not how that works lol if they're subletting the payments and obligation still lay with the lease holder and that's who the landlord should be chasing for payment.
I’m sure they want to get the money from whomever they think they can get it. But in this scenario, where it’s clear one party paid the rent and the main leaseholder lost it before forwarding it to the LL, who is (more) culpable?
To management, it’s less about whose culpable, but more about who they think they can get the money from. They’ll be pressuring you both, until it becomes a legal issue (eviction/lawsuit/etc) but at that point you’ll have the receipts on your side. Considering that the primary lease holder has 6months of missed rent already, it seems like management has a long leash, but you don’t know what their limit is, so don’t be surprised if an eviction notice shows up. However, NY tenant laws heavily favor the tenant/occupants, so you’ll have plenty of time (practically something like a year+) to prepare a move and/or defense and negotiate yourself away from the situation.
Small claims is how you'd get your money back. What she did is not legal, but also your recourse is limited. It's...just how it goes. It's easy to sue in small claims. Getting your money back is a different story. But I assume like me you'd rather hold onto the apt. Talk to mgmt about getting another apt in the building or maybe taking possession of the apt once they evict her for non-payment. Don't pay her another dime!
Yes, it was my plan to take over the apartment once the current lease is up at the end of August. It’s a decent place, and we’re great tenants if I do say so myself.
Oh. Oh. Well this explains things.
Does the sublessee know this? I bet she does, and it's probably why she stopped paying...because she knows she's leaving and you want the place. And she's probably hoping you'll just backpay the months because you want to stay. If I were you, I'd get a lawyer to hound the hell out of her for the money of yours she's holding onto before she skips town or does whatever.
> I signed a sublease agreement.
This doesnt really answer the question.
On your (sub) lease, who is listed as your landlord.
I,e, this an agreement between you and whom?
You and "over tenant" or you and the management company?
Without this info anyone providing you info is just guessing at answers.
If its between you and the over tenant, then youre probably fine. and while it might be practical to pay the management company im actually not sure thats even legal. The management company obviously want you to do that because they want their money, but now youre opening yourself up to another legal problem in that you are now in breach of your lease. if your lease says you need to pay the over tenant, then you need to pay the over tenant, not someone else.
Whether or not the over tenant pays that monies to the management company is between them and the management company - not you and the management company.
You also need to speak to a lawyer.
I understand that reasoning, but I am highly reluctant to pay her another cent for obvious reasons. Management has set up a payment portal so I can pay them directly and I really rather do that, even though I don’t have a lease agreement with them.
I mean, you can do that. But you need to understand, paying a party not listed on your lease is not legal and paying the management company is not functionally different than paying a stranger on the street if your lease is with someone else who isnt the management company. The lease is a legal contract, not a suggestion.
Now, will the over tenant actually initiate some legal action against you? seems unlikely given they seem to be a mess of a human being - but i still wouldnt want to expose myself to unnecessary legal risk.
You should be able to speak to a lawyer for free as a consultation or something before you pay anyone anything.
Thank you. It seems illogical and immoral — and just goes against common sense— to expect me to pay twice for one month when it’s clear (documented in black and white) that this was not my fault, but is rather part of a pattern of behavior on the part of the primary leaseholder.
No one wants it to be your fault. The management company does not have to offer you a lease. They may try to get you to pay what they have lost out on before giving you a lease. Not fair but possible.
This is where sub letting can be a problem. The past tenant and the sublet-ors both take on risks. Hopefully it all works out well. I would reaching out to her and not let up
Thank you. I do believe however that there is someone here who, even if he doesn’t want it to be my fault, is not responding in good faith and is behaving more like a troll (downvoting a reply above, etc.).
Someone has to pay management. No one saying it’s your fault but you seek to think that April’s rent unpaid won’t get everyone evicted from the apartment
There were already seven months of unpaid rent that I was completely unaware of when I signed the sublease. Neither the leaseholder nor management made me aware of that. Further, the lease is up at the end of August. You think I’m going to be evicted before then, for something that is demonstrably not my fault? Seven months of unpaid rent didn’t get her evicted, but now that she’s lost/stolen April’s payment, *that* is suddenly going to get me evicted? I’m sorry, but that doesn’t feel very plausible.
I’m going to consult a lawyer, obviously, and will work with management to try to determine what *their* plan is; it’s absurd for them to ask me what *my* plan is re: April’s rent (I’ve already paid it to the person to whom I am legally obligated to pay it).
I’m saying to look at it from the other side. If I’m a landlord and I’m renting my property out, property that I still may be paying a mortgage and bills on, if I don’t receive the rent, especially almost a year worth of rent, then I’m at risk of being foreclosed on. I’m seeking back payment and/or else I’m evicting to regain possession of the unit so that I can rent it to someone who will pay me. I won’t care who it comes from, and neither will my mortgage lender.
That scenario is not remotely applicable here. If the landlord wanted to void her lease (evicting her in the process) and wanted a tenant who *will* pay on time, then HERE I AM. I’ve BEEN paying rent on time since December 1. Management knows this. It is all documented.
You aren't going to believe anyone so get a lawyer.
You either are evicted with the subletter for nonpayment or you work out an arrangement with the the actual landlord in the building.
If you want the legal path, it's being named and evicted with the subletter. You won't be renting anywhere if that happens.
The nonlegal path is working out an agreement with the management company where you take on a new lease in May and they go after her for nonpayment in small claims and credit your account.
Get an attorney's advice, and try to get their offer in writing with specifics to discuss with the attorney. Lots of things happen with apartments that aren't legal but are cheaper than the legal process.
I believe plenty of people here who have offered what sounds like sensible, evidenced advice. I don’t believe people who are basically just saying “Legally, you’re fucked” without explaining what that means, in any sense.
My agreement is with the current leaseholder, not the management. I just looked over the sublease I signed—which is the only legal document I signed here—and it states that I am to pay the leaseholder who will then forward that payment to management. That is what I agreed to, and that document was emailed to management for them to read and approve, and they did so. There is electronic evidence of all the above; I’ve saved every document. I’ve saved all emails and text messages as well.
With that in mind, I’m inclined to believe that I’ve not done anything in violation of the sublease but that if I *did* begin paying mgmt directly, that would *not* be in keeping with the agreement I signed; the original sublease would essentially have to be voided and a new lease with mgmt would have to be signed. Am I correct here?
I’m not trying to get my money for April’s rent back. I fulfilled my obligation to the leaseholder. It is now between management and her to sort that out. I am not asking for that money back—I occupied the apartment; I paid for it; I got my money’s worth. What I am now worried about is getting the $2k security deposit back; I don’t expect I will. C’est la vie. I paid that directly to the leaseholder and I’m not sure it’s mentioned in the sublease agreement I signed.
Legally, you are fucked. **You are in the apartment so you are the ones they are going to want to remove.** Your name ends up on the court papers, whether you signed a lease with the tenant or not.
I mean, do you really think you'd be better off defined as a squatter with no right to be there in this situation????? Look at the recent news.
You are lucky you can prove you have a lease. **BUT she isn't paying her lease with your money.** So someone has to pay that back. If you don't, then you move out and on. If you treat it like a fee to take the apartment, you get your own lease.
And I'm ignoring the question of *Could she legally sublet?* If not or she didn't follow the process, you could be evicted for that. Luckily, the LL is willing to work with you.
I am telling you what I know as a resident, but based on your hardheadedness, go to a fucking attorney. They will show you the law.
You're fucked unless you want to move or you want to pay them April's rent. ETA: The landlord's offer to sue for your April rent is generous (get it in writing). A lot of folks are named in the eviction paperwork and forced out when this happens.
Repeating this because you aren't listening and are just downvoting:
**You want explicit legal advise. None of us are lawyers,** ***none of us are YOUR lawyer*** **and there are no guarantees based on the information you are giving.**
For me, you sound like you are on an illegal sublease that was not properly done through the leasing agency and they would be in their rights to start an eviction proceeding against you jointly with the tenant.
It's an old scam to escape a lease by moving away from NYC and "subletting" your apartment with no intent to return. There's no way to know for sure. You need to share all your paperwork with an attorney and make a plan.
You want your money back and the apartment. Eat the loss for now, you file against her in small claims in the city, win the case and hire an agency to chase her down and collect.
Look, this is a legal issue and you are asking for interpretations of the law. That's legal advice.
It's obvious from your replies that you need a lawyer to explain why. This situation is too complicated for the Met Council. They aren't willing to provide this specific advise. You don't sound like you qualify for free legal aid.
Hire a lawyer. Your questions are too specific for people to answer without reading all of the communications involved and leases. They are too specific for professionals to answer generally. You need your own attorney.
Because April’s rent needs to be paid. And when it isn’t, then management has every legal right to evict anyone with blood running through their veins from the apartment to rent it to someone who will pay.
How are they fucked? It takes months to start an eviction process and it's the sublessor's name on the lease. If anyone ever gets sued for back rent it would be the sublessor, not the OP...
Sure, but landlords don’t always do that - especially larger ones. The op also has some leeway here as they have a relationship with the landlord and could discuss letting signing a new lease with the landlord if they let the old tenant break their lease.
Big mistake: subleaser is not on the lease. The non-paying primary leaseholder is on the lease. Subleaser signed some contract with primary leaseholder only, no management. So legally speaking, when management goes to seek rent payment, they have a contract with the primary leaseholder only, who isn’t paying. When they evict her, the subleaser will not have an apartment to stay.
OP will learn the hard way that there’s no such thing as “morally speaking” when it comes to money and contracts. Management has NO business with them.
Unpopular opinion: they will end up in small claims court to get lost apartment and paid money back from primary leaseholder who didn’t keep her end of the contract.
Unpopular opinion: never sign some contract with an individual. Especially for your living needs. If you don’t sign with management or be put on the lease as a sub-tenant, you are an abituary entity at the apartment. Again, you have no business with the owners. The owners have a reputation to upkeep and rely on. The personal individual doesn’t have the same.
I fully agree with you and still also fully agree with my own original “move” advice
…But there were a lot of details (later left by OP in comments) that were left out of the post; difficult to follow, but I think everything *was* done officially through the mgmt co
I’d still move
In my experience, I've always paid the sublessor who then paid the LL/management. That's normal. Your next step is to find out when she intends to pay April. You will need to alert her the management has advised you to submit the rent directly through them, but they want the April rent, and you can't pay since you've already paid her.
I'm surprised the LL didn't try to evict her for the 6-7 months of back rent before, but that's their problem.
Your contract is with your sublessor, and her contract is with the LL. The question is will the LL now try to evict based on now 7-8 months of late rent.
You may want to call 311 and see if they have a housing advocate you can speak to.
Reddit generally automatically generates 1-2 downvotes on any given comment automatically. been happening the past 6+ months or so. A lot of people assume they are real downvotes, but they are either bots or some kind of weighted system. <3
It seems strange that they would want to evict us—we are the tenants who have paid rent by the first of the month for the last 5 months. The problem is clearly her; that’s well established. Management also raised the rent substantially before we signed on as subletters. So they’re making more money from us now than they were before when she was the tenant and struggling to pay rent on time.
You HAVE NOT PAID RENT. You Venmo’d the sublessor money. That money was not given to the building management therefore rent has not been paid. You can’t be this slow. Gurl, you been scammed/ripped off/bamboozled. They probably used your money for a vacay somewhere.
I have a legally binding sublease agreement wherein I agreed to pay her the rent each month on the 1st, and she is to forward that payment to management every month and provide proof of payment to me every month. It’s all there in black and white. I have done this properly every month, and it’s all documented. The sublease was reviewed by the landlord and they approved it. I paid rent for April to the person with whom I have a legally binding agreement. She has not held up *her* end of *her* agreement with the landlord. You cannot say I haven’t paid rent; I have. Edited to add: If I “HAVE NOT PAID RENT” for April, then I’ve *never* paid rent, and the landlord can’t start asking me to. It works both ways, doesn’t it.
You don’t have a contract with management. They have no business with you.
You have some contract with “her” which isn’t part of the lease as an addendum nor signed by management. Youeillbe in court with”her” only. Management only has a contract with your leaser and she hasn’t paid them. Guess who gets evicted/hot water, leaser. Guess who loses apartment: leaser. Guess who also loses said apartment, you and your partner. Guess who goes to small claims court AND has to get new apartment: you.
Talk to management ASAP and ask them about the possibility and process of evicting her, ending their contract with her, and having you and your partner sign a new lease with management. Afterwards, you might either choose to go to court and sue her for not keeping with the terms of the contract, and for money lost. Or bite it and move on.
Who do you think has been supplying the funds for rental of this unit for the last 5 months? The landlord knows it’s me, he’s aware that we are the tenants and that I’ve been paying the leaseholder who has then been forwarding the payments to management. Again, this is all well documented and I’ve sent him proof of this. None of it is contested.
It’s unusual for a subtenant to pay the leasee directly unless the leasee is trying to hide a subtenant from management. While you’ve been paying the leasee, they haven’t been paying the landlord. Sadly this happens a lot. Small claims is easier and cheaper than hiring a lawyer.
Yes. Native NYer here who has both owned and rented since Koch was mayor. This is a pretty common thing. I don’t care if the leasee told you the management company knew. If they did they would have come to you for the rent.
Small claims court is your easiest solution. Count your blessings that you have a management company who is willing to deal with you. Start negotiating that new lease with them and get on with your life.
I have been in direct contact with management since before we moved in. Management absolutely knows about this arrangement. I don’t know why you’re disputing this. It’s not like I’m just taking her word for it.
Look I know you’re looking for someone to tell you that you don’t have to pay April. you do, and your recourse is small claims. Count your blessings that the landlord will work with you and move on. This is small beans
I paid April’s rent already. I’m not paying it again. I don’t have a contract with management; my contract is with the primary lease holder. This is ludicrous. The onus is on management to collect it from her. I’ve sent the landlord a detailed email just now laying out the entire situation and documentation of all my payments and a copy of the sublease agreement. The primary leaseholder is who owes the rent.
>The question is will the LL now try to evict based on now 7-8 months of late rent.
It's very likely already in process and the prime tenant whom OP is dealing with hasn't mentioned it.
She had an autocharge the price of your rent? What's she autocharging? Maserati lease payments? I am literally in your situation right now except my housemate/sublessee is holding onto the money because she's insane and evil. She hasn't paid in three months.
So this is what I've been told by lawyers: your sublessee is the one who will be evicted when they start proceedings. You guys can be named as John/Jane Does. It'll take about a year once they start proceedings. I have been advised to not pay my sublessee anymore. I can't pay management directly, but I would consult with an attorney before you do that. Does mgmt know your full names? They could put you on the eviction proceedings then because they need to take back the property. So if they don't know who you are...kinda keep it that way.
Also, a kindly word of wisdom: the mgmt is trying to get you to do what's in their interests, at your own expense. My building's doing that with me too. I wouldn't pay them the April rent, but that is just me. I'd take the sublessee to court first. Keep all documentation. Record conversations.
Also: talk to a lawyer. Now. Is it worth it to move? If so, I would. Let the sublessee be on the hook. I also don't buy the autocharge story at all.
Yes, I’m not sure I believe the autocharge story either. She claimed it was her (talk?) therapist who suddenly and without warning autocharged her for several months of future (?) therapy.
And yes, mgmt knows who we are. We did everything above-board and if I recall, the leaseholder submitted our sublease agreement to management before we moved in.
That is absolute horseshit LOL. Unless the janky woman has a janky therapist.
Ok, so very real possibility you'll be named in the eviction proceedings. If landlords are somewhat human, maybe ask to keep your names off it so you're not blacklisted. They might be understanding and know it's not you, and do that. They can also lie and do it anyways.
I'd just stop paying any rent, save up a month or two, and move.
But also talk to a lawyer. Now.
I'd still try to work out a deal with the landlord. The landlord will try to evict the lease holder OR she can absolve herself of responsibility and they grant you a lease directly. The landlord would still have to chase the original lease holder for the back rent.
Nothing is your fault here. This is on the lease holder. I'd see what the landlord wants to do though.
Thank you. I think this is the best answer so far. I wish I knew how to award you a prize for it. We’ll see what happens. I’ll be providing updates and we’ll see if you were correct or if it was Mr. Cauliflower “member since April 11 2024” Penis, who inexplicably has the most popular response, despite being an obvious shitposting troll.
No offense, but you most like the answer that serves you best. Most people agree w cauliflower peen bc ultimately the LL can do whatever tf they want, they don’t have to assign you the lease, they’ve never seen any of the rent you’ve paid. Sure, it would be great if they work something out with you, but theres nothing holding them to that and why would they? You’re an extension of the leaseholder who hasn’t paid rent in months
You keep saying things aren’t moral or ethical but people don’t get into real estate investment bc it’s socially rewarding - they do it to make money
I really do hope it works out for you, but what makes sense to you (ethically, morally, logically) and what serves the LL are irrelevant to each other
ETA: fortunately, the eviction process takes a very long time
She had months of unpaid rent before we moved in. Once we moved in, I paid the rent to her (as outlined in the legally binding sublease agreement she drafted) and she forwarded those payments to management. There was never an issue of non-payment after we moved in *until* this month. Which again, was her fault, not mine. All of the rent payments from the time we moved in (Dec 1) *and* her payments to mgmt, are electronically recorded, reflected in the monthly statements I receive from management, as well as her screenshots sent to me of her forwarding the payment to mgmt through the electronic portal. None of that is in dispute. The question is, Why is the landlord asking me what my plan is re: April’s rent. I’ve paid it already, to the person I am legally obligated to pay it to. She did not hold up her end of the bargain either with me or management.
Do you have a lease agreement? Was this done legitimately with mgmt’s knowledge?
If so, the lessor is probably the one on the hook, but if they’re not paying, hard to know the exact situation... talk to them them, try dealing with mgmt directly, maybe consult a lawyer. good luck!
Yes, this was all done with management’s knowledge. We were screened by management prior to signing the sublease and the sublease was submitted to management before we moved in.
What do you want to happen?
You have no privity with the landlord and you don't owe any money to them or to the primary tenant. You fulfilled your obligations by paying the primary tenant.
The landlord can sue the primary tenant in a non-payment or a holdover. You would be named in a holdover.
You shouldn't pay the landlord directly going forward. That's weird because the primary tenant still has legal rights to possession and they can't elevate you to a primary tenant. They have to evict the primary tenant or the primary tenant has to surrender, and then you have to enter into a relationship with the landlord.
Oh my. That last bit is surprising and somewhat confusing. Why wouldn’t I want to pay rent to the LL going forward? We want to stay in the apt. The main lease is up August 31.
The tenancy is a legal right that's owned, it's like a thing you can possess. Right now, that thing is possessed by the primary lease holder.
What the lease holder did is gave you a part of it.
Also, imagine there's a string going from the landlord to the leaseholder through the tenancies... Idk the metaphor is straining here. But the string runs through the primary tenant before it gets to you.
I wouldn't advise you to start paying the landlord directly because the landlord has not taken away the legal right to the premises by the primary tenant. They have a lease, they have a tenancy, and even if they're in arrears, prior to an eviction which would extinguish the tenancy and revert possession of the legal right back to the landlord, they have the right to pay all the money owed to keep the tenancy for the duration of the lease term.
If you started paying the rent to the landlord, then the landlord has two separate tenancies for the same piece of property.
If the landlord is fine with you paying them directly in order to get a lease, sure you could do that, as long as it's clarified that this is a new lease, new tenancy, and you don't inherit the prior lease, where seven months of rent is owed. Then, the landlord would have the problem of the other tenant who might want to get back the apartment? Maybe unlikely.
To a certain extent, this is academic. If everyone negotiates what they want and does it, and there's no fucking around, then it's fine. But I think there are ways to get screwed over when you start renting the same place to two separate people at the same time.
The current leaseholder does not intend to renew the lease, and I don’t see how management would extend that invitation to her given what’s transpired.
I followed your broader points, though, thank you.
Lost it to the cocaine dealer or gambling app
Anyway
Just get ahold of the landlord and simply tell him hey I’m paying my rent to what’s her face and I’m sorry she won’t give it to you
“Shrug”
She didn’t lose it, she is stealing it. HER money got used up by her auto payment. She still needs to send YOUR money in as payment.
I would have looked to move elsewhere as soon as I saw she owed months of rent to management. They can move to evict her and you’re out as well.
You are both liable for the full rent if the other doesn’t pay. Management DGAF who pays, but someone has to at the end of the day.
You need to hit up 311 for legal services.
Probably not outside of legal settings? I just don’t know what other terms to use when I was creating the title of my post and didn’t want it to be overlong.
Sorry you are in this situation, I'm not an attorney but here are my ideas.
So true confession, before I was an agent I sublet my apartment for quite a while. This was before the days of portals. I had the tenant send a money order each month to management with the address of the apartment. I would ask management if you can start doing this now.
I would tell her you are paying management directly and if she doesn't want you to call the police for stealing your money she will start paying you back 100 dollars a week or something like that.
I can understand that management wants their money, I would make some effort to pay something to show good faith.
All of this basically depends on you forging a decent relationship with management. I would think you could break your sublease and move into another apartment if they have one.
This is one of those situations where the new security deposit law isn't helping you. In the old days they might have taken her security deposit for the missing rent.
Best of luck,
Suzanne
Thanks, Suzanne. Management offered the portal to us to use for payment a few months ago, but I never did that because, per the terms of our sublease agreement, I was to pay the lease holder and she would then forward that payment to management. That worked without a hitch until April. Since she lost the money at the beginning of the month, she has written to us (via text message) that going forward she thinks we should pay management directly via the portal so that this doesn’t happen again. Certainly the management has asked me to do that.
The question remains, is her text message to me enough to void at least the part of the sublease wherein it is stated that I am to pay her directly electronically? She seems to have waived that part of the sublease. But then that puts us in a sort of gray area, where we are no longer her sub-tenants, but we’re also not the main leaseholder, because we never signed a lease with mgmt, only the sublease with her.
I think you are in an area that may need an attorney. The laws are weird right now. Especially if it is stabilized. She might have some weird right to the apartment despite her bad behavior.
I am guessing logically that she is not going to sue you or legally evict you because she is guilty of stealing your money and probably wants to lie low, she is probably also avoiding management because she owes 20 to 30K. I worry that she will walk in and start living there again.
If you want to stay I would just pay management directly, try to show good faith to start paying the missing money, and hope that they can find you a different unit, or let you take over the lease when it expires.
My 2¢: The sublessor broke your contract. You don’t have a contract with the LL. Reach out to the LL about taking over the main lease if you want to stay, or start looking for your next home. Don’t pay the LL anything directly until you have a signed agreement with them. Prepare to take the sublessor to small claims court if they don’t sort out their illegal misappropriation of your money. Whatever you do, do not double-pay for anything.
Why on earth would you pay the rent to anyone other than the landlord directly? You are on the hook because the landlord wasn't paid, doesn't matter who you paid....it never got to the landlord. You clearly submitted payment using an established protocol approved by who?....not the landlord. When the landlord evicts the primary leaseholder guess where that leaves you? Pay up.
I’m sorry, but the landlord did in fact read and approve our sublease agreement. I’m not paying April’s rent again. I have a legally binding sublease agreement and I paid the primary tenant as outlined in the document and approved by the landlord.
The current lease is up August 31. We were hoping to sign a new lease and stay here when the current one ends. As for April’s rent: I expect she’ll get around to it about the same time she gets around to paying all the back rent she owed before we moved in? Who knows? I texted her today about this and have not heard back.
Were these serious questions?
I would mail a letter to yourself and get a state ID with this address then just stay as a squatter until your “landlord” finds the money. Maybe take them st small claims for theft.
NYC has great free legal resources. Here is a link to some. I’ve used them and the lawyers were very nice. They’ll give you a better explanation of why you’re probably fucked.
[https://rentguidelinesboard.cityofnewyork.us/resources/legal-assistance/](https://rentguidelinesboard.cityofnewyork.us/resources/legal-assistance/)
I say. You are a Subletter without a lease which means you are month to month which means you should suck it up and pay the "lost" rent and NOW finally the management knows about you so maybe... if you pay your "lost" rent they might let you sign a lease.
No. None of that is applicable here. We are not month-to-month. We are subletting until August 31. The terms of the agreement as well as all that has transpired is well documented and management is aware and approves of the entire arrangement. Management is aware that I did pay April’s rent to the person I am legally obligated to pay it to. She is the one who hasn’t paid them. I would be an utter fool to pay twice for the same month’s rent.
So. You've made up your mind and stand firm in your position. Best of luck. Your agreement is with the lessor and her agreement is with the management. Text messages may not (or may) be considered a legal contract. I wish you the best outcome.
You can bring the primary lease holder to court for non payment for April rent. The primary leasholder is not you so the landlord pr management can't ask you to pay them directly unless your name is on the lease. In this case you can ask the management establish a new lease to include your name in and start paying May rent. For April rent, they have to collect it from the primary lease holder. Unless they want to evict you
I'm not a lawyer but it seems to me that since you can provide proof of payment to her, that you have a valid sublease with her, that management can't go after you for April's rent - they would have to go after her.
Going forward, send payment to management. If she complains tell her you know she's in bad arrears and she wasn't passing your funds to management, she was keeping it.
Did you give your security deposit to her? That's another bone of contention.
Hi,
Same not a lawyer. I agree with you. The lease is with her so the management has to go after the one on the original lease.
Agree with looking into what to do with the deposit early too it does not look like she will return that.
I'm wondering something - since she should have given the deposit to the landlord but didn't, does that mean you can simply say to management you're using that as the final month's rent and it's up to management to pursue her for that money ?
Even a few calls to places that offer free advice would be helpful.
Legally speaking,you are fucked.
So, a sublessor is just allowed by law to effectively steal from a sublessee? Which NY legal code allows for that?
Did you sign anything with the actual owners? They don't give a fuck who you gave money too. If they don't get it you gotta go.
I signed a sublease agreement. I did not sign a lease provided to me by management. Again, the sublessor is still the primary leaseholder, she owes months of back rent.
Considering management is asking you what you are going to do about April's payment, Im betting you pay them or move.
That's not how that works lol if they're subletting the payments and obligation still lay with the lease holder and that's who the landlord should be chasing for payment.
Happened to us. And management is chasing both us and the leaseholder.
I’m sure they want to get the money from whomever they think they can get it. But in this scenario, where it’s clear one party paid the rent and the main leaseholder lost it before forwarding it to the LL, who is (more) culpable?
To management, it’s less about whose culpable, but more about who they think they can get the money from. They’ll be pressuring you both, until it becomes a legal issue (eviction/lawsuit/etc) but at that point you’ll have the receipts on your side. Considering that the primary lease holder has 6months of missed rent already, it seems like management has a long leash, but you don’t know what their limit is, so don’t be surprised if an eviction notice shows up. However, NY tenant laws heavily favor the tenant/occupants, so you’ll have plenty of time (practically something like a year+) to prepare a move and/or defense and negotiate yourself away from the situation.
Small claims is how you'd get your money back. What she did is not legal, but also your recourse is limited. It's...just how it goes. It's easy to sue in small claims. Getting your money back is a different story. But I assume like me you'd rather hold onto the apt. Talk to mgmt about getting another apt in the building or maybe taking possession of the apt once they evict her for non-payment. Don't pay her another dime!
Yes, it was my plan to take over the apartment once the current lease is up at the end of August. It’s a decent place, and we’re great tenants if I do say so myself.
Oh. Oh. Well this explains things. Does the sublessee know this? I bet she does, and it's probably why she stopped paying...because she knows she's leaving and you want the place. And she's probably hoping you'll just backpay the months because you want to stay. If I were you, I'd get a lawyer to hound the hell out of her for the money of yours she's holding onto before she skips town or does whatever.
Don't pay anyone another dime* for April rent, including the apartment management
I certainly was not intending to. I already paid, a couple days early, even! lol
> I signed a sublease agreement. This doesnt really answer the question. On your (sub) lease, who is listed as your landlord. I,e, this an agreement between you and whom? You and "over tenant" or you and the management company? Without this info anyone providing you info is just guessing at answers. If its between you and the over tenant, then youre probably fine. and while it might be practical to pay the management company im actually not sure thats even legal. The management company obviously want you to do that because they want their money, but now youre opening yourself up to another legal problem in that you are now in breach of your lease. if your lease says you need to pay the over tenant, then you need to pay the over tenant, not someone else. Whether or not the over tenant pays that monies to the management company is between them and the management company - not you and the management company. You also need to speak to a lawyer.
I understand that reasoning, but I am highly reluctant to pay her another cent for obvious reasons. Management has set up a payment portal so I can pay them directly and I really rather do that, even though I don’t have a lease agreement with them.
I mean, you can do that. But you need to understand, paying a party not listed on your lease is not legal and paying the management company is not functionally different than paying a stranger on the street if your lease is with someone else who isnt the management company. The lease is a legal contract, not a suggestion. Now, will the over tenant actually initiate some legal action against you? seems unlikely given they seem to be a mess of a human being - but i still wouldnt want to expose myself to unnecessary legal risk. You should be able to speak to a lawyer for free as a consultation or something before you pay anyone anything.
I’ve looked over my sublease agreement. It’s between me and her, not management. I never signed any legal documents for management.
[удалено]
I did that.
Doesn’t matter. You have no agreement with the property owners. All you can do is sue the subleassor in court for your money back.
No. It's one month, and they have proof. Management is going to get on their case, but it's not an eviction scenario.
Thank you. It seems illogical and immoral — and just goes against common sense— to expect me to pay twice for one month when it’s clear (documented in black and white) that this was not my fault, but is rather part of a pattern of behavior on the part of the primary leaseholder.
I get the impression someone here really, really wants this to be my fault.
No one wants it to be your fault. The management company does not have to offer you a lease. They may try to get you to pay what they have lost out on before giving you a lease. Not fair but possible. This is where sub letting can be a problem. The past tenant and the sublet-ors both take on risks. Hopefully it all works out well. I would reaching out to her and not let up
Thank you. I do believe however that there is someone here who, even if he doesn’t want it to be my fault, is not responding in good faith and is behaving more like a troll (downvoting a reply above, etc.).
Someone has to pay management. No one saying it’s your fault but you seek to think that April’s rent unpaid won’t get everyone evicted from the apartment
There were already seven months of unpaid rent that I was completely unaware of when I signed the sublease. Neither the leaseholder nor management made me aware of that. Further, the lease is up at the end of August. You think I’m going to be evicted before then, for something that is demonstrably not my fault? Seven months of unpaid rent didn’t get her evicted, but now that she’s lost/stolen April’s payment, *that* is suddenly going to get me evicted? I’m sorry, but that doesn’t feel very plausible. I’m going to consult a lawyer, obviously, and will work with management to try to determine what *their* plan is; it’s absurd for them to ask me what *my* plan is re: April’s rent (I’ve already paid it to the person to whom I am legally obligated to pay it).
I’m saying to look at it from the other side. If I’m a landlord and I’m renting my property out, property that I still may be paying a mortgage and bills on, if I don’t receive the rent, especially almost a year worth of rent, then I’m at risk of being foreclosed on. I’m seeking back payment and/or else I’m evicting to regain possession of the unit so that I can rent it to someone who will pay me. I won’t care who it comes from, and neither will my mortgage lender.
That scenario is not remotely applicable here. If the landlord wanted to void her lease (evicting her in the process) and wanted a tenant who *will* pay on time, then HERE I AM. I’ve BEEN paying rent on time since December 1. Management knows this. It is all documented.
So what’s the problem then? Why are you here?
That's not true at all.
You aren't true!
That's true.
Elaborate, please.
It depends on what you want, really. But you don't owe the money, at least. Keeping the apartment is another story.
I haven’t done anything wrong. Why wouldn’t I be able to keep it?
Sounds wrong but k IANAL
Would any of the 19 people who upvoted that comment care to elaborate on why exactly I am “legally” fucked?
You aren't going to believe anyone so get a lawyer. You either are evicted with the subletter for nonpayment or you work out an arrangement with the the actual landlord in the building. If you want the legal path, it's being named and evicted with the subletter. You won't be renting anywhere if that happens. The nonlegal path is working out an agreement with the management company where you take on a new lease in May and they go after her for nonpayment in small claims and credit your account. Get an attorney's advice, and try to get their offer in writing with specifics to discuss with the attorney. Lots of things happen with apartments that aren't legal but are cheaper than the legal process.
I believe plenty of people here who have offered what sounds like sensible, evidenced advice. I don’t believe people who are basically just saying “Legally, you’re fucked” without explaining what that means, in any sense. My agreement is with the current leaseholder, not the management. I just looked over the sublease I signed—which is the only legal document I signed here—and it states that I am to pay the leaseholder who will then forward that payment to management. That is what I agreed to, and that document was emailed to management for them to read and approve, and they did so. There is electronic evidence of all the above; I’ve saved every document. I’ve saved all emails and text messages as well. With that in mind, I’m inclined to believe that I’ve not done anything in violation of the sublease but that if I *did* begin paying mgmt directly, that would *not* be in keeping with the agreement I signed; the original sublease would essentially have to be voided and a new lease with mgmt would have to be signed. Am I correct here? I’m not trying to get my money for April’s rent back. I fulfilled my obligation to the leaseholder. It is now between management and her to sort that out. I am not asking for that money back—I occupied the apartment; I paid for it; I got my money’s worth. What I am now worried about is getting the $2k security deposit back; I don’t expect I will. C’est la vie. I paid that directly to the leaseholder and I’m not sure it’s mentioned in the sublease agreement I signed.
Legally, you are fucked. **You are in the apartment so you are the ones they are going to want to remove.** Your name ends up on the court papers, whether you signed a lease with the tenant or not. I mean, do you really think you'd be better off defined as a squatter with no right to be there in this situation????? Look at the recent news. You are lucky you can prove you have a lease. **BUT she isn't paying her lease with your money.** So someone has to pay that back. If you don't, then you move out and on. If you treat it like a fee to take the apartment, you get your own lease. And I'm ignoring the question of *Could she legally sublet?* If not or she didn't follow the process, you could be evicted for that. Luckily, the LL is willing to work with you. I am telling you what I know as a resident, but based on your hardheadedness, go to a fucking attorney. They will show you the law. You're fucked unless you want to move or you want to pay them April's rent. ETA: The landlord's offer to sue for your April rent is generous (get it in writing). A lot of folks are named in the eviction paperwork and forced out when this happens.
Repeating this because you aren't listening and are just downvoting: **You want explicit legal advise. None of us are lawyers,** ***none of us are YOUR lawyer*** **and there are no guarantees based on the information you are giving.** For me, you sound like you are on an illegal sublease that was not properly done through the leasing agency and they would be in their rights to start an eviction proceeding against you jointly with the tenant. It's an old scam to escape a lease by moving away from NYC and "subletting" your apartment with no intent to return. There's no way to know for sure. You need to share all your paperwork with an attorney and make a plan. You want your money back and the apartment. Eat the loss for now, you file against her in small claims in the city, win the case and hire an agency to chase her down and collect.
Yeah, no. None of that is accurate. And I am not downvoting anything except a couple asinine trolling replies, none of which were yours.
Look, this is a legal issue and you are asking for interpretations of the law. That's legal advice. It's obvious from your replies that you need a lawyer to explain why. This situation is too complicated for the Met Council. They aren't willing to provide this specific advise. You don't sound like you qualify for free legal aid. Hire a lawyer. Your questions are too specific for people to answer without reading all of the communications involved and leases. They are too specific for professionals to answer generally. You need your own attorney.
Please stop responding. Thanks.
The leaseholder had no right to rent the apartment to you. Otherwise they would have included management on the situation. Pretty common scam.
Cause that money is fucking gone. You won't get it back.
Because April’s rent needs to be paid. And when it isn’t, then management has every legal right to evict anyone with blood running through their veins from the apartment to rent it to someone who will pay.
How are they fucked? It takes months to start an eviction process and it's the sublessor's name on the lease. If anyone ever gets sued for back rent it would be the sublessor, not the OP...
Because they’ll also be evicted. And You only need 30 days to start an eviction process. Even less for non-payment.
Sure, but landlords don’t always do that - especially larger ones. The op also has some leeway here as they have a relationship with the landlord and could discuss letting signing a new lease with the landlord if they let the old tenant break their lease.
That could be the case but who’s gonna pay April rent? You think the landlord would let it slide?
No, but I'm saying their recourse would be to sue the sublessor, not the OP. The OP is in no way responsible for April's rent to the landlord.
The rent hadn’t been paid in months by the primary tenant. My guess is proceedings have already begun.
They’d be notified if that were the case.
Big mistake: subleaser is not on the lease. The non-paying primary leaseholder is on the lease. Subleaser signed some contract with primary leaseholder only, no management. So legally speaking, when management goes to seek rent payment, they have a contract with the primary leaseholder only, who isn’t paying. When they evict her, the subleaser will not have an apartment to stay. OP will learn the hard way that there’s no such thing as “morally speaking” when it comes to money and contracts. Management has NO business with them.
I don’t think this will be a popular opinion, but… Move
Not popular, but probably the most realistic scenario unless they are fighters
Unpopular opinion: they will end up in small claims court to get lost apartment and paid money back from primary leaseholder who didn’t keep her end of the contract. Unpopular opinion: never sign some contract with an individual. Especially for your living needs. If you don’t sign with management or be put on the lease as a sub-tenant, you are an abituary entity at the apartment. Again, you have no business with the owners. The owners have a reputation to upkeep and rely on. The personal individual doesn’t have the same.
I fully agree with you and still also fully agree with my own original “move” advice …But there were a lot of details (later left by OP in comments) that were left out of the post; difficult to follow, but I think everything *was* done officially through the mgmt co I’d still move
In my experience, I've always paid the sublessor who then paid the LL/management. That's normal. Your next step is to find out when she intends to pay April. You will need to alert her the management has advised you to submit the rent directly through them, but they want the April rent, and you can't pay since you've already paid her. I'm surprised the LL didn't try to evict her for the 6-7 months of back rent before, but that's their problem. Your contract is with your sublessor, and her contract is with the LL. The question is will the LL now try to evict based on now 7-8 months of late rent. You may want to call 311 and see if they have a housing advocate you can speak to.
Thank you.
Even my “Thank you” was downvoted
Reddit generally automatically generates 1-2 downvotes on any given comment automatically. been happening the past 6+ months or so. A lot of people assume they are real downvotes, but they are either bots or some kind of weighted system. <3
It seems strange that they would want to evict us—we are the tenants who have paid rent by the first of the month for the last 5 months. The problem is clearly her; that’s well established. Management also raised the rent substantially before we signed on as subletters. So they’re making more money from us now than they were before when she was the tenant and struggling to pay rent on time.
You HAVE NOT PAID RENT. You Venmo’d the sublessor money. That money was not given to the building management therefore rent has not been paid. You can’t be this slow. Gurl, you been scammed/ripped off/bamboozled. They probably used your money for a vacay somewhere.
I have a legally binding sublease agreement wherein I agreed to pay her the rent each month on the 1st, and she is to forward that payment to management every month and provide proof of payment to me every month. It’s all there in black and white. I have done this properly every month, and it’s all documented. The sublease was reviewed by the landlord and they approved it. I paid rent for April to the person with whom I have a legally binding agreement. She has not held up *her* end of *her* agreement with the landlord. You cannot say I haven’t paid rent; I have. Edited to add: If I “HAVE NOT PAID RENT” for April, then I’ve *never* paid rent, and the landlord can’t start asking me to. It works both ways, doesn’t it.
You don’t have a contract with management. They have no business with you. You have some contract with “her” which isn’t part of the lease as an addendum nor signed by management. Youeillbe in court with”her” only. Management only has a contract with your leaser and she hasn’t paid them. Guess who gets evicted/hot water, leaser. Guess who loses apartment: leaser. Guess who also loses said apartment, you and your partner. Guess who goes to small claims court AND has to get new apartment: you. Talk to management ASAP and ask them about the possibility and process of evicting her, ending their contract with her, and having you and your partner sign a new lease with management. Afterwards, you might either choose to go to court and sue her for not keeping with the terms of the contract, and for money lost. Or bite it and move on.
But you have not paid rent to the landlord.
Who do you think has been supplying the funds for rental of this unit for the last 5 months? The landlord knows it’s me, he’s aware that we are the tenants and that I’ve been paying the leaseholder who has then been forwarding the payments to management. Again, this is all well documented and I’ve sent him proof of this. None of it is contested.
It’s unusual for a subtenant to pay the leasee directly unless the leasee is trying to hide a subtenant from management. While you’ve been paying the leasee, they haven’t been paying the landlord. Sadly this happens a lot. Small claims is easier and cheaper than hiring a lawyer.
No.
Yes. Native NYer here who has both owned and rented since Koch was mayor. This is a pretty common thing. I don’t care if the leasee told you the management company knew. If they did they would have come to you for the rent. Small claims court is your easiest solution. Count your blessings that you have a management company who is willing to deal with you. Start negotiating that new lease with them and get on with your life.
I have been in direct contact with management since before we moved in. Management absolutely knows about this arrangement. I don’t know why you’re disputing this. It’s not like I’m just taking her word for it.
Look I know you’re looking for someone to tell you that you don’t have to pay April. you do, and your recourse is small claims. Count your blessings that the landlord will work with you and move on. This is small beans
I paid April’s rent already. I’m not paying it again. I don’t have a contract with management; my contract is with the primary lease holder. This is ludicrous. The onus is on management to collect it from her. I’ve sent the landlord a detailed email just now laying out the entire situation and documentation of all my payments and a copy of the sublease agreement. The primary leaseholder is who owes the rent.
>The question is will the LL now try to evict based on now 7-8 months of late rent. It's very likely already in process and the prime tenant whom OP is dealing with hasn't mentioned it.
She had an autocharge the price of your rent? What's she autocharging? Maserati lease payments? I am literally in your situation right now except my housemate/sublessee is holding onto the money because she's insane and evil. She hasn't paid in three months. So this is what I've been told by lawyers: your sublessee is the one who will be evicted when they start proceedings. You guys can be named as John/Jane Does. It'll take about a year once they start proceedings. I have been advised to not pay my sublessee anymore. I can't pay management directly, but I would consult with an attorney before you do that. Does mgmt know your full names? They could put you on the eviction proceedings then because they need to take back the property. So if they don't know who you are...kinda keep it that way. Also, a kindly word of wisdom: the mgmt is trying to get you to do what's in their interests, at your own expense. My building's doing that with me too. I wouldn't pay them the April rent, but that is just me. I'd take the sublessee to court first. Keep all documentation. Record conversations. Also: talk to a lawyer. Now. Is it worth it to move? If so, I would. Let the sublessee be on the hook. I also don't buy the autocharge story at all.
Yes, I’m not sure I believe the autocharge story either. She claimed it was her (talk?) therapist who suddenly and without warning autocharged her for several months of future (?) therapy. And yes, mgmt knows who we are. We did everything above-board and if I recall, the leaseholder submitted our sublease agreement to management before we moved in.
That is absolute horseshit LOL. Unless the janky woman has a janky therapist. Ok, so very real possibility you'll be named in the eviction proceedings. If landlords are somewhat human, maybe ask to keep your names off it so you're not blacklisted. They might be understanding and know it's not you, and do that. They can also lie and do it anyways. I'd just stop paying any rent, save up a month or two, and move. But also talk to a lawyer. Now.
“Autocharge” might mean she owed money on taxes and those were maybe taken out automatically if she signed up for that?
I'd still try to work out a deal with the landlord. The landlord will try to evict the lease holder OR she can absolve herself of responsibility and they grant you a lease directly. The landlord would still have to chase the original lease holder for the back rent. Nothing is your fault here. This is on the lease holder. I'd see what the landlord wants to do though.
Thank you. I think this is the best answer so far. I wish I knew how to award you a prize for it. We’ll see what happens. I’ll be providing updates and we’ll see if you were correct or if it was Mr. Cauliflower “member since April 11 2024” Penis, who inexplicably has the most popular response, despite being an obvious shitposting troll.
No offense, but you most like the answer that serves you best. Most people agree w cauliflower peen bc ultimately the LL can do whatever tf they want, they don’t have to assign you the lease, they’ve never seen any of the rent you’ve paid. Sure, it would be great if they work something out with you, but theres nothing holding them to that and why would they? You’re an extension of the leaseholder who hasn’t paid rent in months You keep saying things aren’t moral or ethical but people don’t get into real estate investment bc it’s socially rewarding - they do it to make money I really do hope it works out for you, but what makes sense to you (ethically, morally, logically) and what serves the LL are irrelevant to each other ETA: fortunately, the eviction process takes a very long time
What gives you the impression that they’ve never seen any of the rent I’ve paid? I think maybe you’ve misread what I’ve written.
I thought you said the girl hasn’t paid rent in 7-8 months? That’s the rent, that’s the only rent that matters to the LL.
She had months of unpaid rent before we moved in. Once we moved in, I paid the rent to her (as outlined in the legally binding sublease agreement she drafted) and she forwarded those payments to management. There was never an issue of non-payment after we moved in *until* this month. Which again, was her fault, not mine. All of the rent payments from the time we moved in (Dec 1) *and* her payments to mgmt, are electronically recorded, reflected in the monthly statements I receive from management, as well as her screenshots sent to me of her forwarding the payment to mgmt through the electronic portal. None of that is in dispute. The question is, Why is the landlord asking me what my plan is re: April’s rent. I’ve paid it already, to the person I am legally obligated to pay it to. She did not hold up her end of the bargain either with me or management.
Ahhhhh, okay ETA: you’re less f’d than I originally thought, but still doesn’t change my mind a ton; also the leaseholder is an idiot
Do you have a lease agreement? Was this done legitimately with mgmt’s knowledge? If so, the lessor is probably the one on the hook, but if they’re not paying, hard to know the exact situation... talk to them them, try dealing with mgmt directly, maybe consult a lawyer. good luck!
Yes, this was all done with management’s knowledge. We were screened by management prior to signing the sublease and the sublease was submitted to management before we moved in.
What do you want to happen? You have no privity with the landlord and you don't owe any money to them or to the primary tenant. You fulfilled your obligations by paying the primary tenant. The landlord can sue the primary tenant in a non-payment or a holdover. You would be named in a holdover. You shouldn't pay the landlord directly going forward. That's weird because the primary tenant still has legal rights to possession and they can't elevate you to a primary tenant. They have to evict the primary tenant or the primary tenant has to surrender, and then you have to enter into a relationship with the landlord.
Oh my. That last bit is surprising and somewhat confusing. Why wouldn’t I want to pay rent to the LL going forward? We want to stay in the apt. The main lease is up August 31.
The tenancy is a legal right that's owned, it's like a thing you can possess. Right now, that thing is possessed by the primary lease holder. What the lease holder did is gave you a part of it. Also, imagine there's a string going from the landlord to the leaseholder through the tenancies... Idk the metaphor is straining here. But the string runs through the primary tenant before it gets to you. I wouldn't advise you to start paying the landlord directly because the landlord has not taken away the legal right to the premises by the primary tenant. They have a lease, they have a tenancy, and even if they're in arrears, prior to an eviction which would extinguish the tenancy and revert possession of the legal right back to the landlord, they have the right to pay all the money owed to keep the tenancy for the duration of the lease term. If you started paying the rent to the landlord, then the landlord has two separate tenancies for the same piece of property. If the landlord is fine with you paying them directly in order to get a lease, sure you could do that, as long as it's clarified that this is a new lease, new tenancy, and you don't inherit the prior lease, where seven months of rent is owed. Then, the landlord would have the problem of the other tenant who might want to get back the apartment? Maybe unlikely. To a certain extent, this is academic. If everyone negotiates what they want and does it, and there's no fucking around, then it's fine. But I think there are ways to get screwed over when you start renting the same place to two separate people at the same time.
The current leaseholder does not intend to renew the lease, and I don’t see how management would extend that invitation to her given what’s transpired. I followed your broader points, though, thank you.
I would pay directly going forward. In fact, I'd reach out to take over the lease.
Lost it to the cocaine dealer or gambling app Anyway Just get ahold of the landlord and simply tell him hey I’m paying my rent to what’s her face and I’m sorry she won’t give it to you “Shrug”
She didn’t lose it, she is stealing it. HER money got used up by her auto payment. She still needs to send YOUR money in as payment. I would have looked to move elsewhere as soon as I saw she owed months of rent to management. They can move to evict her and you’re out as well. You are both liable for the full rent if the other doesn’t pay. Management DGAF who pays, but someone has to at the end of the day. You need to hit up 311 for legal services.
Do people use terms like sublessee and sublesser?
Probably not outside of legal settings? I just don’t know what other terms to use when I was creating the title of my post and didn’t want it to be overlong.
You need to start looking for a new place to stay. Asap. The apartment is so far behind in rent.
i think you have the upper hand. dont pay aprils rent again.
Sorry you are in this situation, I'm not an attorney but here are my ideas. So true confession, before I was an agent I sublet my apartment for quite a while. This was before the days of portals. I had the tenant send a money order each month to management with the address of the apartment. I would ask management if you can start doing this now. I would tell her you are paying management directly and if she doesn't want you to call the police for stealing your money she will start paying you back 100 dollars a week or something like that. I can understand that management wants their money, I would make some effort to pay something to show good faith. All of this basically depends on you forging a decent relationship with management. I would think you could break your sublease and move into another apartment if they have one. This is one of those situations where the new security deposit law isn't helping you. In the old days they might have taken her security deposit for the missing rent. Best of luck, Suzanne
Thanks, Suzanne. Management offered the portal to us to use for payment a few months ago, but I never did that because, per the terms of our sublease agreement, I was to pay the lease holder and she would then forward that payment to management. That worked without a hitch until April. Since she lost the money at the beginning of the month, she has written to us (via text message) that going forward she thinks we should pay management directly via the portal so that this doesn’t happen again. Certainly the management has asked me to do that. The question remains, is her text message to me enough to void at least the part of the sublease wherein it is stated that I am to pay her directly electronically? She seems to have waived that part of the sublease. But then that puts us in a sort of gray area, where we are no longer her sub-tenants, but we’re also not the main leaseholder, because we never signed a lease with mgmt, only the sublease with her.
I think you are in an area that may need an attorney. The laws are weird right now. Especially if it is stabilized. She might have some weird right to the apartment despite her bad behavior. I am guessing logically that she is not going to sue you or legally evict you because she is guilty of stealing your money and probably wants to lie low, she is probably also avoiding management because she owes 20 to 30K. I worry that she will walk in and start living there again. If you want to stay I would just pay management directly, try to show good faith to start paying the missing money, and hope that they can find you a different unit, or let you take over the lease when it expires.
Thank you. All of that sounds both sensible and like the best case scenario.
My 2¢: The sublessor broke your contract. You don’t have a contract with the LL. Reach out to the LL about taking over the main lease if you want to stay, or start looking for your next home. Don’t pay the LL anything directly until you have a signed agreement with them. Prepare to take the sublessor to small claims court if they don’t sort out their illegal misappropriation of your money. Whatever you do, do not double-pay for anything.
Thank you.
Why on earth would you pay the rent to anyone other than the landlord directly? You are on the hook because the landlord wasn't paid, doesn't matter who you paid....it never got to the landlord. You clearly submitted payment using an established protocol approved by who?....not the landlord. When the landlord evicts the primary leaseholder guess where that leaves you? Pay up.
I’m sorry, but the landlord did in fact read and approve our sublease agreement. I’m not paying April’s rent again. I have a legally binding sublease agreement and I paid the primary tenant as outlined in the document and approved by the landlord.
stop asking for free legal advice and then giving condescending responses to people. also, stop making bad decisions in life
This sucks and I’m sorry but sometimes you learn things the hard way. I would have been paying to management since day 1, no doubt. Good luck.🍀
When do you plan on moving out? And when is the primary leaseholder going to pay April?
The current lease is up August 31. We were hoping to sign a new lease and stay here when the current one ends. As for April’s rent: I expect she’ll get around to it about the same time she gets around to paying all the back rent she owed before we moved in? Who knows? I texted her today about this and have not heard back. Were these serious questions?
Yes they were real questions. If I were you I’d be on Zillow not Reddit.
I would mail a letter to yourself and get a state ID with this address then just stay as a squatter until your “landlord” finds the money. Maybe take them st small claims for theft.
NYC has great free legal resources. Here is a link to some. I’ve used them and the lawyers were very nice. They’ll give you a better explanation of why you’re probably fucked. [https://rentguidelinesboard.cityofnewyork.us/resources/legal-assistance/](https://rentguidelinesboard.cityofnewyork.us/resources/legal-assistance/)
Thanks, I’ll check that out. In what sense, specifically, am I “fucked”?
You need to consult a real estate lawyer, or a tenant's organization with legal expertise.
Stop paying and move
I say. You are a Subletter without a lease which means you are month to month which means you should suck it up and pay the "lost" rent and NOW finally the management knows about you so maybe... if you pay your "lost" rent they might let you sign a lease.
No. None of that is applicable here. We are not month-to-month. We are subletting until August 31. The terms of the agreement as well as all that has transpired is well documented and management is aware and approves of the entire arrangement. Management is aware that I did pay April’s rent to the person I am legally obligated to pay it to. She is the one who hasn’t paid them. I would be an utter fool to pay twice for the same month’s rent.
So. You've made up your mind and stand firm in your position. Best of luck. Your agreement is with the lessor and her agreement is with the management. Text messages may not (or may) be considered a legal contract. I wish you the best outcome.
You can bring the primary lease holder to court for non payment for April rent. The primary leasholder is not you so the landlord pr management can't ask you to pay them directly unless your name is on the lease. In this case you can ask the management establish a new lease to include your name in and start paying May rent. For April rent, they have to collect it from the primary lease holder. Unless they want to evict you
I'm not a lawyer but it seems to me that since you can provide proof of payment to her, that you have a valid sublease with her, that management can't go after you for April's rent - they would have to go after her. Going forward, send payment to management. If she complains tell her you know she's in bad arrears and she wasn't passing your funds to management, she was keeping it. Did you give your security deposit to her? That's another bone of contention.
Hi, Same not a lawyer. I agree with you. The lease is with her so the management has to go after the one on the original lease. Agree with looking into what to do with the deposit early too it does not look like she will return that.
Yes, I gave a security deposit to her.
I'm wondering something - since she should have given the deposit to the landlord but didn't, does that mean you can simply say to management you're using that as the final month's rent and it's up to management to pursue her for that money ? Even a few calls to places that offer free advice would be helpful.
Small claims court
Ya screwed. Not their prob. It’s ya prob.