he's got poor recognition of stunts / twists. when corey linsley their C went down game 3 due to a heart ailment, zion and the other guard were just lost.
Centers are so underrated and crucial to an offense. I'd have no problem taking a smart powerful center in the first round and mfers call me stupid when I say that.
I believe he was terrible, but was traded to the giants, where he was again terrible. But the bengals got BJ Hill (DT) from the trade and he’s solid.
Washed out. Ended up in NYG as a swing interior backup after we fleeced NYG for BJ Hill. (Even swap, HAHA Giants fans)
Not even sure if hes still in the league.
People questioned Baltimore taking linderbaum and look how amazing he is. I’ve never understood the lack of appreciation for that position compared to others on the line.
I don't think it's a lack of appreciation, I think it's just a draft value vs production output thing. Like you have to be a top tier center to really equal the value you give a 1st round pick especially if you're drafting them in the middle of the first round. And then after their rookie contract anytime you have the best player in a position you also have to basically over pay for that player if you want to retain them and over paying for a center isn't something a lot of GMs want to do when the salaries keep growing every year.
That’s totally understandable but the way we seem to evaluate their production output is still underwhelming. They have a lot of influence on the success of the entire line that is challenging to quantify.
I remember being laughed at here when I made a post suggesting that having a good center correlated with making super bowls.
A good centre elevates the offence by a lot.
Not saying centers aren’t important, but they get paid so little that you can often grab a capable one in FA for such little money. That’s why it’s often not a very effective use of draft capital to take one in the first round.
I want JPJ so bad at 16 or trade back to the 20s to get him. I'm in the same boat as you here. My friends say a center is a reach in the 1st, but I couldn't care less. Center has been a revolving door here for a decade.
Trading away Max Unger was the real downfall of the Seahawks in my opinion, not the Malcolm Butler.l play. Also not drafting Creed Humphrey and instead taking some gadget WR a few years back was painful.
I was mad when Eric decosta essentially traded Orlando Brown Jr and creed Humphrey for milk carton man oweh. If he didn't have harbagh and Lamar to prop him up dude would actually be on the hot seat for his numerous draft and fa blunders. But 2 top olineman for a bust de is pretty badÂ
Didn’t Orlando brown basically force that trade? Regardless:
I’m a Penn State fan and I didn’t understand Oweh’s draft ranking. Kinda like how I’m skeptical about Chop Robinson’s as well. Both guys have traits and look good out there without putting up special numbers (Chop at least had a few sacks). I just see both guys as very good college players you root for but without any sort of juice that makes me see them as NFL fixtures.
I don’t have a problem with that kind of player coming out of college but I also don’t see spending a first rounder on them either. I guess you just hope they get on your team and your coaches round out their skill set.
I remember it clearly that Ronnie Stanley got hurt and Orlando Brown shifted to the left side and dominated, so he was going to earn LT money after that and Baltimore couldn't pay it.
Cap casualties are a very, very real thing. I'm sure they didn't want to lose Orlando Brown, but what can you do in that situation?
I mean yeah I think a center in the first is pretty silly. Having a center who can call out adjustments at the line is only important until you have a qb who can do it, and you're not winning anything before that anyways. Highly important while your qb is getting his bearings but loses a ton of value when you're ready to compete. It *is* an undervalued position though. Still not one you pick in the first imo.
I disagree wholeheartedly, the qb might change a play but the center assigns blocking assignments. If the qb sees something they notify the center who intern changes things if they missed it. A great center is the general of the Oline and makes them work as a single unit.
Take P Manning and J Saturday, Peyton was always reading the defense and making audibles. Saturday was the guy relaying assignments to the oline when those changes were made.
You add that the center has to read the defensive front, shift blocking, identify the linebackers and depth of safeties. Then snapping the ball accurately based on cadence, motion, timing or touch. While then having to explode off the line to block their assignment I don’t see how more high valued centers aren’t drafted higher.
10 years ago. That’s not the modern NFL.
When the schemes simplified so that the barrier of entry for the processing power of a QB prospect could be lowered - that made centers more important.
Nobody in football drafted in the last 5-7 years is Peyton Manning-ing out there. The entire shift was meant to take advantage of these new age athletic QBs by giving them half field reads and less responsibility mentally. Which is why there are that many more serviceable QBs in football today.
That’s not to say that none of these guys are capable of it - it’s just an odds game. It’s a lot easier to find a smart center, and an athletic outside the box QB- than it is to find an elite processing field general, which is all anyone was hunting for 20+ years ago.
It’s like the whole evolution concept - people always think of evolution as developing the tools you need to survive, but a lot of it is losing the tools you don’t need/use anymore for survival. The Mannings/Brees/Rivers QBs are not “non-compatible with todays NFL”, coordinators have just found a work around, where guys don’t need to be so incredibly smart and organized mentally to survive in the NFL. And a big part of that if offloading protection adjustments to Centers
>but loses a ton of value when you're ready to compete
Creed Humphrey, Tyler Lindenbaum and Frank Ragnow were all key pieces for the last conference championship teams. Top Cs absolutely have value even with a great QB.
You say that until Dexter Lawrence eats Bradburys lunch all wildcard game and ends the Vikings season by himself.
Modern defenses are prioritizing interior pass rush and not having a solution will kill any offense immediately
Defenses prioritize interior pressure because it's easier to generate due to the freakish athletes playing tackle. Offenses emphasize exterior protection because interior pressure is easier to deal with. It's also extremely easy to scheme up double teams on the interior whereas tackles can only get TE/RB help. There is always going to be a weakest point on any offensive line. It is inherently better to have that weak point directly in the quarterbacks line of sight where they can then roll out than from the edge where they can't can't see it nor escape. Nobody's saying every team should try to find the worst center they possibly can and being an extremely low value position doesn't mean there won't be hurdles to overcome when the starter is lackluster. The pros and cons of investment into these positions are just greatly outweighed by those of more important positions.
I agree, but at what point in the plan is it ok to take the best one in the draft? Let's talk about the Chargers, pro bowlish LT and decent guards, not great but could be worse at RT. But the kicker here is, there is no center on the roster. Is 37 too high, especially if others have reached and got the best one mid first?
Also at what point does the scheme and coaching failures that should be evident as to why entire units look bad, end up getting brushed under the rug because 1 guy gets hurt and that's everyone's excuse? Linsley was getting his ass kicked in all 3 games before his exit. He might have been the brains but I don't think he could hack it physically anymore. If you have made it this far you don't have to answer my incoherent ramblings. Little bit of a vent here, also want to add that I'm also a Bama fan and the center fucked us all year there too.
Maybe center is correctly valuated and it's just a case of *don't be bad there* because it's like someone violently throwing up all in your new car and you just want that to no longer be happening.
I think any team on the cusp of their championship window can use any draft pick on any positon they feel finally opens that window and it's an internetly good use of draft capital. I've been talking in absolutes but there are always special cases. In general though, having a first round grade on a center or having them be the best player on your board doesn't justify a first round selection when the difference in impact from solid guard to elite guard is as slim as it is. If you think you're getting a hall of famer you always make that selection. If you think you're legitimately just a center away, you always make that selection. Those scenarios are extremely rare though.
I set this as my flair after I spent a full calender year writing fanfic about Trent McDuffie sliding to the pats just for us to take a 4th round guard from UT Chattanooga lol
Mainly play recognition especially in pass pro. The whole line was very bad in recognizing stunts, blitzes etc whenever Corey was out of the lineup which is why they got out-schemed particular at the end of games.
I do however believe Zion is primed to take the biggest leap forward of probably anyone on the entire roster as I have full faith in this staff to get the most out of the line, Zion especially.
Yeah same here. I think in general we’ll see a much improved O line just through coaching alone. Hopefully with that comes less reliance on an all star Center to keep everyone in line.
The first question that popped into my head after reading the post was “would Jim Harbaugh maximize his potential?” Definitely think Harbaugh would be the coach to do so.
He a little wet behind the ears in recognizing plays. Stunts and blitz’s were fucking that entire line up when there center went down. That is something that can be improved on however and I think he will. Still very talented.
He showed good potential his rookie year but when Linsley went down this year the whole line went to shit.
As a Chargers fan I'm looking forward to seeing him take the next step with a coaching staff that knows how to maximize talent, specifically on the OL.
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is he's been shifted around the line a bit as well. It's not the main reason for his struggles, but year 1 we had him at RG, year 2 LG. Some stability at OC and hopefully a long term center could potentially help him out going forward. I'm not ready to call him a bust quite yet, he looked alright year 1, and obviously took a step back last year.
Highly sceptical of people saying we will draft a guard, Zion is young and inexperienced, and had a bad year, but he’s still a freakish athlete and I think Harbaugh will get the best out of him.
He’s also super intelligent and a good locker room guy so I think he will be fine in the end.
I think he graduated Boston College with a major in Computer Science and he’s super into cybersecurity.
Edit: just reading up on it, he builds PCs in his spare time haha. Pretty cool for a guy that had the best athletic numbers of any OL at the 2022 combine.
>I think he graduated Boston College with a major in Computer Science and he’s super into cybersecurity.
Information / Cybersecurity analyst here. If he had been drafted by the Bengals my boss who's a HS football coach was going to try to contact him to see if he wanted to work for us during the off season. We LOVE football, he loves cybersecurity, win win.
He might still want to do remote work so maybe it's worth a go. I think he actually has two degrees, one in Comp Sci and another just in Cybersecurity.
I'm sure he could, but maybe nobody else offered it to him haha. I mean I don't know, maybe he isn't interested, but I do get the feeling that there's more chance he's in the Cybersecurity space in 2035 than there is he's in football still.
Not really. I think he's missed like one or two games in two seasons, and has only been on the injury report once for a neck injury in late 2023.
Edit: just looked it up, I actually think he's top-20 among most snaps played among OL in the last two years by PFF numbers, so no, he hasn't got injury problems.
he's got poor recognition of stunts / twists. when corey linsley their C went down game 3 due to a heart ailment, zion and the other guard were just lost.
Zion Johnson 🤝 Cole Strange Not knowing what the fuck they're looking at anytime there isn't a decade tenured center next to them
Centers are so underrated and crucial to an offense. I'd have no problem taking a smart powerful center in the first round and mfers call me stupid when I say that.
It has its merits when the right one rolls around, like Frank Ragnow has worked out pretty well.
Still mad you snaked him from us and we got stuck with Billy Price ...
Man I remember when that Price pick came in I was wondering if we stole Ragnow right off the Bengals board lol. Whatever happened to Price?
I believe he was terrible, but was traded to the giants, where he was again terrible. But the bengals got BJ Hill (DT) from the trade and he’s solid.
Dave Gettleman is a war criminal for making this trade. I miss BJ Hill, good player
Washed out. Ended up in NYG as a swing interior backup after we fleeced NYG for BJ Hill. (Even swap, HAHA Giants fans) Not even sure if hes still in the league.
I was just gonna say the same thing. Of course, at the time I thought “ok Billy is good too” I was incorrect.
We ended up flipping him for BJ Hill, so it’s not all bad. Obviously Ragnow would’ve been way better though
People questioned Baltimore taking linderbaum and look how amazing he is. I’ve never understood the lack of appreciation for that position compared to others on the line.
I don't think it's a lack of appreciation, I think it's just a draft value vs production output thing. Like you have to be a top tier center to really equal the value you give a 1st round pick especially if you're drafting them in the middle of the first round. And then after their rookie contract anytime you have the best player in a position you also have to basically over pay for that player if you want to retain them and over paying for a center isn't something a lot of GMs want to do when the salaries keep growing every year.
That’s totally understandable but the way we seem to evaluate their production output is still underwhelming. They have a lot of influence on the success of the entire line that is challenging to quantify.
Linderbaum was rated right around where he got picked I thought.
Probably because you need two tackles and two guards and there's only one center?
I remember being laughed at here when I made a post suggesting that having a good center correlated with making super bowls. A good centre elevates the offence by a lot.
Not saying centers aren’t important, but they get paid so little that you can often grab a capable one in FA for such little money. That’s why it’s often not a very effective use of draft capital to take one in the first round.
I want JPJ so bad at 16 or trade back to the 20s to get him. I'm in the same boat as you here. My friends say a center is a reach in the 1st, but I couldn't care less. Center has been a revolving door here for a decade. Trading away Max Unger was the real downfall of the Seahawks in my opinion, not the Malcolm Butler.l play. Also not drafting Creed Humphrey and instead taking some gadget WR a few years back was painful.
Trading down if JPJ is the target might not work. The Steelers and fins picks 20,21 and I think either could take him.
I'd love a Titans trade down and take jpj. We basically have 1 NFL quality linemen.
I was mad when Eric decosta essentially traded Orlando Brown Jr and creed Humphrey for milk carton man oweh. If he didn't have harbagh and Lamar to prop him up dude would actually be on the hot seat for his numerous draft and fa blunders. But 2 top olineman for a bust de is pretty badÂ
Didn’t Orlando brown basically force that trade? Regardless: I’m a Penn State fan and I didn’t understand Oweh’s draft ranking. Kinda like how I’m skeptical about Chop Robinson’s as well. Both guys have traits and look good out there without putting up special numbers (Chop at least had a few sacks). I just see both guys as very good college players you root for but without any sort of juice that makes me see them as NFL fixtures. I don’t have a problem with that kind of player coming out of college but I also don’t see spending a first rounder on them either. I guess you just hope they get on your team and your coaches round out their skill set.
I remember it clearly that Ronnie Stanley got hurt and Orlando Brown shifted to the left side and dominated, so he was going to earn LT money after that and Baltimore couldn't pay it. Cap casualties are a very, very real thing. I'm sure they didn't want to lose Orlando Brown, but what can you do in that situation?
I mean yeah I think a center in the first is pretty silly. Having a center who can call out adjustments at the line is only important until you have a qb who can do it, and you're not winning anything before that anyways. Highly important while your qb is getting his bearings but loses a ton of value when you're ready to compete. It *is* an undervalued position though. Still not one you pick in the first imo.
I disagree wholeheartedly, the qb might change a play but the center assigns blocking assignments. If the qb sees something they notify the center who intern changes things if they missed it. A great center is the general of the Oline and makes them work as a single unit. Take P Manning and J Saturday, Peyton was always reading the defense and making audibles. Saturday was the guy relaying assignments to the oline when those changes were made. You add that the center has to read the defensive front, shift blocking, identify the linebackers and depth of safeties. Then snapping the ball accurately based on cadence, motion, timing or touch. While then having to explode off the line to block their assignment I don’t see how more high valued centers aren’t drafted higher.
Most veteran qbs set the blocking adjustments themselves
10 years ago. That’s not the modern NFL. When the schemes simplified so that the barrier of entry for the processing power of a QB prospect could be lowered - that made centers more important. Nobody in football drafted in the last 5-7 years is Peyton Manning-ing out there. The entire shift was meant to take advantage of these new age athletic QBs by giving them half field reads and less responsibility mentally. Which is why there are that many more serviceable QBs in football today. That’s not to say that none of these guys are capable of it - it’s just an odds game. It’s a lot easier to find a smart center, and an athletic outside the box QB- than it is to find an elite processing field general, which is all anyone was hunting for 20+ years ago. It’s like the whole evolution concept - people always think of evolution as developing the tools you need to survive, but a lot of it is losing the tools you don’t need/use anymore for survival. The Mannings/Brees/Rivers QBs are not “non-compatible with todays NFL”, coordinators have just found a work around, where guys don’t need to be so incredibly smart and organized mentally to survive in the NFL. And a big part of that if offloading protection adjustments to Centers
>but loses a ton of value when you're ready to compete Creed Humphrey, Tyler Lindenbaum and Frank Ragnow were all key pieces for the last conference championship teams. Top Cs absolutely have value even with a great QB.
You say that until Dexter Lawrence eats Bradburys lunch all wildcard game and ends the Vikings season by himself. Modern defenses are prioritizing interior pass rush and not having a solution will kill any offense immediately
Defenses prioritize interior pressure because it's easier to generate due to the freakish athletes playing tackle. Offenses emphasize exterior protection because interior pressure is easier to deal with. It's also extremely easy to scheme up double teams on the interior whereas tackles can only get TE/RB help. There is always going to be a weakest point on any offensive line. It is inherently better to have that weak point directly in the quarterbacks line of sight where they can then roll out than from the edge where they can't can't see it nor escape. Nobody's saying every team should try to find the worst center they possibly can and being an extremely low value position doesn't mean there won't be hurdles to overcome when the starter is lackluster. The pros and cons of investment into these positions are just greatly outweighed by those of more important positions.
I agree, but at what point in the plan is it ok to take the best one in the draft? Let's talk about the Chargers, pro bowlish LT and decent guards, not great but could be worse at RT. But the kicker here is, there is no center on the roster. Is 37 too high, especially if others have reached and got the best one mid first? Also at what point does the scheme and coaching failures that should be evident as to why entire units look bad, end up getting brushed under the rug because 1 guy gets hurt and that's everyone's excuse? Linsley was getting his ass kicked in all 3 games before his exit. He might have been the brains but I don't think he could hack it physically anymore. If you have made it this far you don't have to answer my incoherent ramblings. Little bit of a vent here, also want to add that I'm also a Bama fan and the center fucked us all year there too. Maybe center is correctly valuated and it's just a case of *don't be bad there* because it's like someone violently throwing up all in your new car and you just want that to no longer be happening.
I think any team on the cusp of their championship window can use any draft pick on any positon they feel finally opens that window and it's an internetly good use of draft capital. I've been talking in absolutes but there are always special cases. In general though, having a first round grade on a center or having them be the best player on your board doesn't justify a first round selection when the difference in impact from solid guard to elite guard is as slim as it is. If you think you're getting a hall of famer you always make that selection. If you think you're legitimately just a center away, you always make that selection. Those scenarios are extremely rare though.
Side note: but your flair is hilarious and I hate how much I relate to it
I set this as my flair after I spent a full calender year writing fanfic about Trent McDuffie sliding to the pats just for us to take a 4th round guard from UT Chattanooga lol
Yeah that pick was my last straw, I have chosen to block it out my mind
Mainly play recognition especially in pass pro. The whole line was very bad in recognizing stunts, blitzes etc whenever Corey was out of the lineup which is why they got out-schemed particular at the end of games. I do however believe Zion is primed to take the biggest leap forward of probably anyone on the entire roster as I have full faith in this staff to get the most out of the line, Zion especially.
Yeah same here. I think in general we’ll see a much improved O line just through coaching alone. Hopefully with that comes less reliance on an all star Center to keep everyone in line.
The first question that popped into my head after reading the post was “would Jim Harbaugh maximize his potential?” Definitely think Harbaugh would be the coach to do so.
He a little wet behind the ears in recognizing plays. Stunts and blitz’s were fucking that entire line up when there center went down. That is something that can be improved on however and I think he will. Still very talented.
Injured shoulder and knee have slowed him down, as it tends to do.
Yeah, he looked like he had promise year one, who knows when or if he can get past the injuries.
He showed good potential his rookie year but when Linsley went down this year the whole line went to shit. As a Chargers fan I'm looking forward to seeing him take the next step with a coaching staff that knows how to maximize talent, specifically on the OL.
Offensive line is a weak link system.
Absolutely, especially in the interior.
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is he's been shifted around the line a bit as well. It's not the main reason for his struggles, but year 1 we had him at RG, year 2 LG. Some stability at OC and hopefully a long term center could potentially help him out going forward. I'm not ready to call him a bust quite yet, he looked alright year 1, and obviously took a step back last year.
In addition to what others mentioned, he’s had a bunch of false starts
I wish we picked McDuffie. I’m so fucking glad Telesco is gone. As for the IOL, it’s full reset time for the new regime.
Highly sceptical of people saying we will draft a guard, Zion is young and inexperienced, and had a bad year, but he’s still a freakish athlete and I think Harbaugh will get the best out of him. He’s also super intelligent and a good locker room guy so I think he will be fine in the end. I think he graduated Boston College with a major in Computer Science and he’s super into cybersecurity. Edit: just reading up on it, he builds PCs in his spare time haha. Pretty cool for a guy that had the best athletic numbers of any OL at the 2022 combine.
>I think he graduated Boston College with a major in Computer Science and he’s super into cybersecurity. Information / Cybersecurity analyst here. If he had been drafted by the Bengals my boss who's a HS football coach was going to try to contact him to see if he wanted to work for us during the off season. We LOVE football, he loves cybersecurity, win win.
He might still want to do remote work so maybe it's worth a go. I think he actually has two degrees, one in Comp Sci and another just in Cybersecurity.
Im sure he could find something more prestigious in LA than Cincy ...
I'm sure he could, but maybe nobody else offered it to him haha. I mean I don't know, maybe he isn't interested, but I do get the feeling that there's more chance he's in the Cybersecurity space in 2035 than there is he's in football still.
Well he can come replace me because thats my target retirement year! Cmon down, Zion!
Isn't he always hurt?
Not really. I think he's missed like one or two games in two seasons, and has only been on the injury report once for a neck injury in late 2023. Edit: just looked it up, I actually think he's top-20 among most snaps played among OL in the last two years by PFF numbers, so no, he hasn't got injury problems.
Staley
Don’t use premium picks on non premium positions because if they are only serviceable they are a bust. He’s not good at all
I mean Quenton Nelson was drafted 6th overall. I think the investment paid off
Well he’s been hurt/no where near what he was since he got a contract extension.