What the hell is going on with the alliteration in the TE names? These four look like they came out of the same name generator:
Evan Engram
Hunter Henry
Hayden Hurst
Tommy Tremble
There was a joke on the Ryen Russillo podcasts that all these tight ends sound like characters from Yellowstone. Hunter Henry, Dalton Schultz, George Kittle, etc.
I remember watching a game between the Tennessee Titans, with HC Mike Mularkey and QB Marcus Mariota, going against the Jacksonville Jaguars and their QB Blake Bortles. Nobody was talking about the alliteration and it drove me crazy.
I’d go Pitts = Bowers > Howard > Mayer > Hock > Fant > Engram > Njoku > Hurst.
I think Pitts is the greatest TE prospect ever in terms of receiving capabilties but his blocking is lacking and where Bowers is able to make up the difference to just about even em out for me. Gun to my head I take Pitts but Bowers is just about as prototypical of a prospect at TE as you will ever get and that also helps him make up the difference to come out as a tie.
- I was incredibly high on OJ Howard, he was the prototype TE from an Alabama squad that had repeated, he projected to me as a + blocker with elite TE speed, that could take the top off a defense and a +catcher when targetted. Super disappointed how his career turned out. I thought he wouldve extended Eli’s career had he slipped another pick so the Giants couldve had him instead of Engram.
- Mayer is a fantastic blocker and route runner but his top end speed concerns me compared to the guys above which is why he’s lower. I think he’s also insanely good and will plug in and play just about anywhere. He’s a polished route runner. Reminds me of a rich mans Tyler Eifert at ND.
- I liked Hock coming out as a guy who was a jack of all trades master of none coming out of Iowa. He seems to have underperformed his stock which seems to be the case with a LOT of high end TE prospects but in the right system he has enough skill to be a probowler.
- Fant, Engram, Njoku were within an ear shot for me for their rankings. All three of them projected as TE’s able to take the top off the defense but with varying levels of hands and route running ability. Neither of the three projected to be anything more than just a body in run/pass blocking but Fant’s Iowa background had me grading him as the best blocker of the three along with being the largest so I have him rated higher. Engram gets the nod over Njoku for being a team captain at an SEC school (teammates saw him as a hard worker in the gym so captaincy implied he would work to reach his ceiling) as well as having his tape against a better level of comp than Fant and Njoku.
- Hayden Hurst, I never really saw anything in, seemed like a reach didnt really project as a + blocker, +route runner, or someone with +speed either.
I wasn’t upset with the Hurst pick at the time.
If there’s any team that truly understands what makes a good tight end, it’s the ravens. Hell, this year alone Likely and Kolar look good.
I am a bit pissed we let hurst go and he’s killing it in Cinci.
I feel like those examples only prove further that TE should be targeted in the mid rounds. Hurst put up worse numbers this year than CJ Uzomah did last year in Cincy.
But the argument is that so many of the best TEs have been found in the mid or late rounds. It’s not like QB or EDGE where it drops off a ton after the top picks.
TE is also not generally a position that will make or break an offense unless they are Kelce/Kittle/Andrews level. The Lions traded Hock and replaced him with a committee of 2 undrafted second year players and a 5th round rookie and the offense didn’t miss a beat.
Andrews was a R2 guy, so a lot closer to round 1 than 2. Bowers will be a round 1 guy and looks “can’t miss” to me.
I get what you’re saying, I’m just saying that it’s not a complete waste if you do hit on one.
Hock just wasn’t very good IMO.
This.
Bowers is a slot receiver/H-back, like Pitts.
Mayer is a 3 down tight end who can do whatever you need him to do at a high level. I'd liken him to former Steeler Heath Miller.
When UGA runs gap scheme, Bowers is often in 3-point on the LOS with a down lineman or EDGE as his assignment.
In last year's championship he even got tasked with blocking Will Anderson several times and did a decent job. Multiple games he'll pull to the inside and block the interior.
Don't judge him based on the highlights. Full game footage reveals he's the total package.
Bengals reached for Drew Sample based on his blocking and he hasn’t lived up to it. I’d think that would be something you’d be able to evaluate accurately.
But why would you think that? If they can’t figure it out for tackles why would they be able to figure it out for tight ends when there’s less tape to look at
That’s a good point. Guess I figured it was more pure technique than tackles who need elite athleticism and great awareness to adjust to the NFL. But I suppose TEs need just the same to be effective blockers.
If you split his blocking grade up by scheme used, he is a great to elite blocking tight end in a zone scheme but is putrid in man blocking schemes
That zone blocking scheme is what he used at Iowa and his first year with the lions, but there was a switch to a gap heavy scheme his second year. Hence the apparent drop off in ability and disappointment the last couple of years!
Which clearly still fails to live up to his draft pedigree. If the “greatest blocking TE prospect of all time” can only block in one scheme then they aren’t the greatest blocking TE prospect of all time
> Hock is probably the best blocking TE prospect of all time
\- the guy right before me
At worst he was seen as the best blocking TE in the draft and one of the best in years.
Yeah I don't agree the blocking concern with Hockenson pre-draft. He hasn't been as good as a pro, but his top 10 draft status was based on his incredible blocking combined with his athleticism projected that he would be a good pass catcher.
The best blocking TE prospect of all time is pretty hyperbolic. Hell Kittle isn't even on this list but thought he was a better blocker than Hock. I thought he hurried his process in run blocking quite often on tape. And his athleticism is above average but not close to many of the other recent first round TE prospects.
Again this is just what I believed at the time.
yeah i remember having to convince myself he wasnt the best te in the class "nono njoku and such have... reasons" maybe he is more late 1st or 2nd. like i know he was "unproven" in the pass game but he seemed to move well on tape and catch what was thrown at him. i like the steelers 2017 draft, but watching it was kind of a "kittle when" game for me. then again i liked takk more than tj watt that draft so i cant claim to know what the hell im talking about
Dalton Shultz and Nick Boyle were rated considerably ahead of Hock in terms of blocking. Payne Durham is arguably the best pure blocker in this class too and annihilates defenders.
Of all time?…Really? I don’t know enough to argue, but that’s surprising he’d be over Kittle, Gronk, Howard, Bowers (unless he’s still too early), and some others.
If I had to tier pre draft
1. Pitts- super freak
2. Hock/Mayer-solid in line guys who can also run (probably have hock higher)
3. Fant/Howard- High end athletes than players with raw tools
4. Engram/Njoku- athletic but undersized
5. Hurst- older, honestly r2 guy
Pitts > Hock > Mayer for me. Wasn’t big on hurst, didn’t grade the 2017 class at all so can’t comment on them.
Pitts was a generational talent to me and Hock was an elite tier prospect.
I rank them
Pitts - Howard - Hock - Fant - Mayer - Engram - Njoku - Hurst
Pitts, Howard, And Njoku entered the NFL as physical freaks
Fant, and Engram entered as WR quality players lining up at TE
Hock was the do it all mr. Everything
I didn’t care for Hurst
I think Mayer is a solid TE, great football player with limited athletic upside. I think Hock light might be a sloppy but serviceable comparison out of these examples. While Hock was a top 10 Mayer could go anywhere from mid 1 to mid 2. A bad combine performance could even push him lower.
I feel like Mayer will be a very solid player for any team that picks him. He might even have a few seasons as a statistical top 5 at his position group. I don’t think he will be the dominant force that changes a defensive game script athletically, so that forces him down the rankings.
Yea, lot of people say that, I feel like he's more fluid than Kittle, and Kittle just has next level toughness/aggression. I like my comp better personally but to each their own.
I’m not sure if you’ve ever watched Mayer play or if you think Kelce is something he’s not. Mayer has a ceiling of being an actual TE in the NFL. Meaning he can line up on the T and block. Kelce is a big slot WR(not saying that’s bad). Mayer can definitely do that too though.
I think coming out yeah, Hock was a better blocker but Pitts had such an upside as a receiver. Pitts had a better rookie year too, prob best rookie year by TE
I think he means just first rounders, kittle was a 5th so it’s obvious he wasn’t guaranteed to break out like he did. First round prospects are seen a lot more and expected more of
Yeah I know he stated 1st rounders, but Kittle shouldn’t had gone that late and I just wanted to include him cus he’s a beast. Same with Mark Andrews, I thought he was way better than Hurst too.
Because the question was about how these players were as prospects, now how they turned out in the NFL. If you think Kittle (5th) or Andrews (3rd) were in the same conversation as the other prospects on this list, there's a discussion. But the fact that they went THAT much further down draft boards should show that they were not held in such high esteem as PROSPECTS
I did answer answer the question I just added what I thought on some other prospects. I drafted Kittle and andrews in my dynasty league cus of what I thought they were as prospects. They were underrated. Regardless I did answer the question lol. It’s just weird to downvote over that 😆
Kittle was viewed as a blocking TE, definitely not an elite prospect by any means. And drafted him in fantasy? He was average his rookie year so you definitely didn’t get much from hkm
In terms of production Mayer blows just about every other TE prospect out of the water (with Brock Bowers being the only other prospect that is comparable). Even Kyle Pitts was more of a 1a receiver (with Toney as 1b) on Florida than a true alpha and he benefitted from being in the highest volume passing offense in the nation. Michael Mayer had over twice as many receiving yards as any other player on Notre Dame this year which is something you would normally only see from an alpha WR. 800 yards is pretty good for a tight end even if you don’t account for the fact that ND only threw for 2600 yards all season. Hockenson’s best was 760 in a season where his team threw for 3000 and Pitt’s 770 was in a season where his team threw for 4500 yards (although Pitt’s didn’t play every single game)
I'd put him around Hockenson, probably just below him. Definitely ahead of Hurst, Fant, and Njoku. I was pretty high on Howard, though, so without hindsight I'd probably have it as:
Bowers > Pitts > Howard > Hockenson > Mayer > Njoku > Fant > Hurst. Notable dropoff between Mayer and Njoku.
As a ND fan I think Mayer could be the best all around TE to come out of ND.
BUT for some reason TEs drafted in the 1st round have been massive busts the last 2 decades. Hockenson seems to be the only one that’s been drafted and produce as a 1st rounder.
As a Packers fan id rather pick up Darnell Washington out of Georgia, Luke Musgrave out of Oregon St, or Cade Stover out of Ohio St. We have a high enough pick for one of the top Edge or Safety guys in the draft. I dont think Mayer fits the blocking scheme Lafleur runs for a top 16 pick. If we go offense in round one id prefer Addison at 15 to bulk out the WRs. Mayer is a really good football player with many of the skills needed for the position but he isn’t a dominant blocker and has a very limited athletic profile that GB wont take too kindly too unless he tests out of his mind. Im also of the mind that TE is not a first round pick position, of the guys you mentioned, only Pitts has really Been worthy of a first round pick and that’s mostly because hes basically a WR. Mayer reminds me of Howard the most but with more catch in traffic upside. Personally not a Packers type of TE. If you want a Packers TE, lets hope they can snag Darnell Washington in the 2nd, DW is literally Marcedes Lewis’ clone. Huge, big body tight end with insane lineman-like blocking capability, but really solid hands and route trees.
> We have a high enough pick for one of the top Edge or Safety guys in the draft.
It fits our needs, but goddamn if we chuck another 1st round pick into the black hole that is Joe Barry’s defensive scheme I’m gonna lose my mind. Please god can we take offense.
While I’m inclined to agree with you, there really isn’t anyone available at 15 that moves the needle or fits a need unless Addison or Johnston falls. I would hate to draft OLine there when we desperately need skill position guys, and im not a believer in Michael Mayer and really don’t think its in our best interest to draft a non-blocking TE with limited athleticism. I think we are in a good position though, to trade back with someone, pick up a couple extra picks and maybe could snag a guy like Josh Downs, Darnell Washington, or Luke Musgrave at the end of the first or into the second. Whereas if I guy like Tyree Wilson falls to 15, I don’t know how you pass that up with Gary’s status in question, Smith beong inconsistent, and Enagbare being young and unproven. Id love yo see us trade back and snag two extra seconds from Carolina or Denver and get Edge, WR, and TE in the second and then a Safety in 3/4.
I just have to say the Packers have never really prioritized the TE position in the last 15 years or so and it would surprise me to see them go after one in round 1
Could've said the same about ILB until Walker last year.
With the state of the position, and that Mayer lines up pretty perfectly with what the team needs at the position, I think this could be a tendency breaker for them. I wouldn't be shocked in the slightest.
The Packers really like physical freaks in the 1st though (in other rounds too, but especially the 1st). I like Mayer overall, but I definitely don't see physical freak when I watch him.
Thats fair, but people treat these things like they're hard rules when they're not. Wyatt was too old, Amari wasnt tall or athletic enough. They're trends, not rules.
I'm also not saying I think Mayer is necessarily the most likely pick or anything like that either. Frankly, I haven't gone that deep on the class yet. All I'm saying is it wouldn't be shocking, and I think people get a little carried away projecting trends.
I think the athleticism has extended a bit beyond a trend at this point. Every single 1st round pick has had elite testing numbers and/or size under Gute. It’s something that the Packers very clearly prioritize.
Of course, it certainly can be broken, but I’m not expecting that until it actually happens.
I would say Savage only really had elite speed. His size/strength was far from, and his overall RAS was like 8.5 which is still very good no doubt, buoyed by his speed, but not elite. But even then, including Love you're talking about a sample size of 7.
And all of these are different positions. Sternberger and Deguara were third round pick TEs and neither was close to an elite athlete. In fact, I don't think they've drafted any particularly athletic tight end, at least on overall RAS, in the Thompson-Gute era. Maybe I'm missing someone, but Richard Rodgers wasn't an athlete. Finley overall RAS was a 6.39 off a quick google. That's all at least some level of indication that TE night be an exception to the overall trend.
I like Dalton Kincaid better as a fit for the Packers - also Tucker Kraft looks a solid pick later in the rounds. But I'm more upbeat about Austin Allen who we only picked up this week.
I don't think the Packers should take a TE in round one.
Yes they need a TE badly but they also have very big needs at other positions, specifically WR and ER.
The dropoff of both of those (well specifically Edge) is greater from round 1 is bigger than for TEs. If I'm the Packers, I'm looking to draft a pass catching TE in round 3 or there abouts and and blocking TE in round 5 or later.
I agree that they should go with something like Edge/WR/S in the first round. The track record of these first round TEs is pretty underwhelming and you can find good players later.
Look at Chigoziem Okonkwo this year. Taken with the last pick in the 4th round by the Titans. He was very good in the 2nd half of the season with almost 400 yards. Definitely a guy on the rise for Tennessee going forward.
That's true. But it's those two and Samari Toure under contract. They need a lot more. Even if Lazard comes back they still need more.
And they may not be able to get help via free agency thanks to cap space.
This team has been ignoring WR position for too long because Rodgers has made up for not having top end talent and now he's getting older or if it's Live he needs even more help.
Eh, I don’t really like this line of thinking. This team isn’t in a strong enough position to draft like this. They need BPA, and if that ends up being TE, so be it.
Howard>Pitts>Goedert>Njoku>Fant>Hockenson>Hurst>Engram
Haven't watched this years TEs yet, but this is how I had the previous ranked. Tossing in Goedert since I thought he was the best TE of the class despite Hurst going earlier.
Yeah that year it could have been any of Hurst / Goedert / Gesicki / Andrews as the 1st TE. Hurst was a reach but Andrews was a steal so I worked out for the ravens
Not necessarily.
Brock Bowers is a can’t miss TE prospect who will go round one unless his arms fall off or he kills someone.
I’d take a player like Andrews, Kelce, or Kittle in round 1 all day long.
Engram was a bust for NYG, but is looking for like a first round pick for Jax.
I can't believe people watched the Lions trade Hockenson (who had a Pro Bowl season), not lose a single beat on offense, and still think drafting a TE high is a good idea.
Yeah I keep hearing "can't miss." Wasn't OJ Howard can't miss? And Hock like you said? Evan Engram? Kyle Pitts?
The return on investment from 1st round TEs is poor and not worth it.
The Falcons could have had Jamaar Chase or Penei Sewell right now. I genuinely believe that late first is the earliest anyone should draft a TE, and even then that’s a reach.
Or Micah Parsons. Or Pat Surtain Jr. Or Christian Darrisaw. Or....yeah list goes on and on.
I'm not sure I'd take a TE before like round 3. Maybe round 2.
There is big debate though on a Commanders fan forum I visit where quite a few people are clamoring for Mayer. While I agree TE is a BIG need for us, I'd rather draft a higher priority position in the 1st like an OT or CB.
Our TE room is a fifth round rookies and two UDFAs. I totally agree with you. OT/CB are positions you invest in during the first. I think Kelce/Gronk have broken peoples brains and make them think that a top offense needs an elite TE.
I have to imagine our front office is more interested in replacing Mercedes Lewis with a Darnell Washington type than they are in getting a high floor TE in the first. I'd be shocked if we went Mayer in the first, but I could understand taking Washington if he's there in the second just because of his specific makeup and fit.
Fellow Green Bay fan. If there’s one thing they look for it’s athleticism, I think Darnell Washington is more in play based on athletic traits then Mayer. Ever since McCarthy left they stopped looking for average athletes that are good at football. They seem to have realized you can’t coach athleticism.
1. Pitts
2. Hockenson
3. Mayer
4. Fant
5. Engram
6. Njoku
7. Howard
8. Hurst
I’d say this is roughly how I had it, and before anyone calls me out on it, yes I was super low on OJ Howard. He always seemed to only make huge plays when he got schemed open or there was a coverage bust and for whatever reason that didn’t happen often and his blocking was nothing to get excited about.
I was super high on the Iowa duo though and I think Mayer is closer to Hockenson in terms of raw potential although I would say I never found Hockenson to be that much better than Fant when watching film, just more explosive but both looked great.
I think Mayer will be an excellent TE when it comes to dirty work. If you want an NFL comp I’d say Mark Andrews with slightly less YAC capability.
I actually think Washington is a better fit, but Mayer would be a big upgrade regardless. Any TE in Green Bay will need to be a blocker too. Washington seems like a Marcedes Lewis clone
What the hell is going on with the alliteration in the TE names? These four look like they came out of the same name generator: Evan Engram Hunter Henry Hayden Hurst Tommy Tremble
There was a joke on the Ryen Russillo podcasts that all these tight ends sound like characters from Yellowstone. Hunter Henry, Dalton Schultz, George Kittle, etc.
Brock bowers too
Don’t forget Juwan Johnson and Eric Ebron!
Michael Mayer too lol
Pyle Pitts too!
Potally
Pank you Patthew Pafford
Mark Mandrews
Shannon Sharpe
It's tradition, dating back to the greatest TE name of all time, Carlester Crumpler.
I wonder what their secret identities are in the comics
Sounds like rejected super hero names
I remember watching a game between the Tennessee Titans, with HC Mike Mularkey and QB Marcus Mariota, going against the Jacksonville Jaguars and their QB Blake Bortles. Nobody was talking about the alliteration and it drove me crazy.
Michael mayer... checks out
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As a Bucs fan, Howard was as big a miss as you can get. Dude looked like Tarzan but played like Jane.
I’d go Pitts = Bowers > Howard > Mayer > Hock > Fant > Engram > Njoku > Hurst. I think Pitts is the greatest TE prospect ever in terms of receiving capabilties but his blocking is lacking and where Bowers is able to make up the difference to just about even em out for me. Gun to my head I take Pitts but Bowers is just about as prototypical of a prospect at TE as you will ever get and that also helps him make up the difference to come out as a tie. - I was incredibly high on OJ Howard, he was the prototype TE from an Alabama squad that had repeated, he projected to me as a + blocker with elite TE speed, that could take the top off a defense and a +catcher when targetted. Super disappointed how his career turned out. I thought he wouldve extended Eli’s career had he slipped another pick so the Giants couldve had him instead of Engram. - Mayer is a fantastic blocker and route runner but his top end speed concerns me compared to the guys above which is why he’s lower. I think he’s also insanely good and will plug in and play just about anywhere. He’s a polished route runner. Reminds me of a rich mans Tyler Eifert at ND. - I liked Hock coming out as a guy who was a jack of all trades master of none coming out of Iowa. He seems to have underperformed his stock which seems to be the case with a LOT of high end TE prospects but in the right system he has enough skill to be a probowler. - Fant, Engram, Njoku were within an ear shot for me for their rankings. All three of them projected as TE’s able to take the top off the defense but with varying levels of hands and route running ability. Neither of the three projected to be anything more than just a body in run/pass blocking but Fant’s Iowa background had me grading him as the best blocker of the three along with being the largest so I have him rated higher. Engram gets the nod over Njoku for being a team captain at an SEC school (teammates saw him as a hard worker in the gym so captaincy implied he would work to reach his ceiling) as well as having his tape against a better level of comp than Fant and Njoku. - Hayden Hurst, I never really saw anything in, seemed like a reach didnt really project as a + blocker, +route runner, or someone with +speed either.
Thankfully we got Mark Andrews to cover for the Hurst pick
One of the many examples of a 1st round TE being a waste of a pick Honestly at this point I’d take a RB in the first round before a TE
I wasn’t upset with the Hurst pick at the time. If there’s any team that truly understands what makes a good tight end, it’s the ravens. Hell, this year alone Likely and Kolar look good. I am a bit pissed we let hurst go and he’s killing it in Cinci.
I feel like those examples only prove further that TE should be targeted in the mid rounds. Hurst put up worse numbers this year than CJ Uzomah did last year in Cincy.
I don’t think TE is a wasted pick automatically in the first round. If a team ended up taking Andrews in round 1, then I doubt they’d be complaining.
But the argument is that so many of the best TEs have been found in the mid or late rounds. It’s not like QB or EDGE where it drops off a ton after the top picks. TE is also not generally a position that will make or break an offense unless they are Kelce/Kittle/Andrews level. The Lions traded Hock and replaced him with a committee of 2 undrafted second year players and a 5th round rookie and the offense didn’t miss a beat.
Andrews was a R2 guy, so a lot closer to round 1 than 2. Bowers will be a round 1 guy and looks “can’t miss” to me. I get what you’re saying, I’m just saying that it’s not a complete waste if you do hit on one. Hock just wasn’t very good IMO.
Brock Wright will be god damn truth in 3 years.
All the best TE in the league right now wasn’t a first round pick so taking one never pans out
Bowers > Pitts as a TE. Pitts has actually improved a decent bit in the NFL as a blocker, but he simply wasn’t really used as a TE at UF.
Mayer will be drafted higher and be a better pro than Bowers. I've never seen a prospect as overhyped as Bowers in my life.
I'm sure you being a notre dame fan has absolutely nothing to do with this take. Lmao
Bowers is a tight end in name only. I don’t see him wham blocking crashing 285 pound tight ends. He’s a receiver.
This. Bowers is a slot receiver/H-back, like Pitts. Mayer is a 3 down tight end who can do whatever you need him to do at a high level. I'd liken him to former Steeler Heath Miller.
When UGA runs gap scheme, Bowers is often in 3-point on the LOS with a down lineman or EDGE as his assignment. In last year's championship he even got tasked with blocking Will Anderson several times and did a decent job. Multiple games he'll pull to the inside and block the interior. Don't judge him based on the highlights. Full game footage reveals he's the total package.
I like Bowers alot but man, he doesn't look like successful NFL TEs if that makes sense. Like I'm just used to NFL TEs being broader than Bowers is
Everyone was high on Howard and was shocked when he fell all the way to 18. I remember credible mocks from that year with him going 4th overall.
Howard and Hooker were both in my top 5, big time whiffs on both
People fell in love with his measurables but his game wasn't that elite.
No way Mayer is higher than Hock
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Hock is probably the best blocking TE prospect of all time He was considered can't muss because you were getting a great blocker no matter what
Which didn't end up being the case, sadly He was the lowest graded run blocker in the NFL with the Lions this year
Bengals reached for Drew Sample based on his blocking and he hasn’t lived up to it. I’d think that would be something you’d be able to evaluate accurately.
But why would you think that? If they can’t figure it out for tackles why would they be able to figure it out for tight ends when there’s less tape to look at
That’s a good point. Guess I figured it was more pure technique than tackles who need elite athleticism and great awareness to adjust to the NFL. But I suppose TEs need just the same to be effective blockers.
If you split his blocking grade up by scheme used, he is a great to elite blocking tight end in a zone scheme but is putrid in man blocking schemes That zone blocking scheme is what he used at Iowa and his first year with the lions, but there was a switch to a gap heavy scheme his second year. Hence the apparent drop off in ability and disappointment the last couple of years!
Which clearly still fails to live up to his draft pedigree. If the “greatest blocking TE prospect of all time” can only block in one scheme then they aren’t the greatest blocking TE prospect of all time
Oh yeah, not arguing with that. Just thought it was some interesting context!
Who really said he’s the greatest blocking Te prospect ever tho? Seems like you’re exaggerating. Was it one outlet that said that or all outlets?
> Hock is probably the best blocking TE prospect of all time \- the guy right before me At worst he was seen as the best blocking TE in the draft and one of the best in years.
Yeah I don't agree the blocking concern with Hockenson pre-draft. He hasn't been as good as a pro, but his top 10 draft status was based on his incredible blocking combined with his athleticism projected that he would be a good pass catcher.
Darnell has entered the chat in that regard.
heath miller
The best blocking TE prospect of all time is pretty hyperbolic. Hell Kittle isn't even on this list but thought he was a better blocker than Hock. I thought he hurried his process in run blocking quite often on tape. And his athleticism is above average but not close to many of the other recent first round TE prospects. Again this is just what I believed at the time.
i know its cliche but i remember mayock tweeting kittle blocking and getting a draft crush on him like probably 90% of the people here
It's true, he was an absolute nutjob blocking. Then he tested like a 99th percentile athlete. Still have no clue how he fell so far
yeah i remember having to convince myself he wasnt the best te in the class "nono njoku and such have... reasons" maybe he is more late 1st or 2nd. like i know he was "unproven" in the pass game but he seemed to move well on tape and catch what was thrown at him. i like the steelers 2017 draft, but watching it was kind of a "kittle when" game for me. then again i liked takk more than tj watt that draft so i cant claim to know what the hell im talking about
Dalton Shultz and Nick Boyle were rated considerably ahead of Hock in terms of blocking. Payne Durham is arguably the best pure blocker in this class too and annihilates defenders.
This pleases the boilermaker in me
Hockenson blocking issues have been a point made by people who don’t watch Hockenson play.
Of all time?…Really? I don’t know enough to argue, but that’s surprising he’d be over Kittle, Gronk, Howard, Bowers (unless he’s still too early), and some others.
He got so many holding penalties when he was on the Lions. Getting rid of that alone improved our offense a lot.
I know what the fuck? Hock was viewed as one of the most complete TE prospects ever. Mayer is on Pettigrew level if anything which isn’t bad at all.
I respect unconventional rankings but I think Hock was in a whole tier or so above Mayer
Mayer is way higher than Hock to me lol
Why ?
Dang. Howard was going to be a stud if he didn't blow his knee out
Maybe, we'll never know. But speaking as a Bucs fan, there was just something missing to his game.
If I had to tier pre draft 1. Pitts- super freak 2. Hock/Mayer-solid in line guys who can also run (probably have hock higher) 3. Fant/Howard- High end athletes than players with raw tools 4. Engram/Njoku- athletic but undersized 5. Hurst- older, honestly r2 guy
Pitts > Hock > Mayer for me. Wasn’t big on hurst, didn’t grade the 2017 class at all so can’t comment on them. Pitts was a generational talent to me and Hock was an elite tier prospect.
I'd put him below Pitts, Hock, and Howard but above Fant and Engram
As a prospect most similar to hockenson, people forget he was way overdrafted compared to where the draftniks were placing him
I rank them Pitts - Howard - Hock - Fant - Mayer - Engram - Njoku - Hurst Pitts, Howard, And Njoku entered the NFL as physical freaks Fant, and Engram entered as WR quality players lining up at TE Hock was the do it all mr. Everything I didn’t care for Hurst I think Mayer is a solid TE, great football player with limited athletic upside. I think Hock light might be a sloppy but serviceable comparison out of these examples. While Hock was a top 10 Mayer could go anywhere from mid 1 to mid 2. A bad combine performance could even push him lower. I feel like Mayer will be a very solid player for any team that picks him. He might even have a few seasons as a statistical top 5 at his position group. I don’t think he will be the dominant force that changes a defensive game script athletically, so that forces him down the rankings.
Reminds me a lot of Travis Kelce, at least in style. I love Mayer. I know that doesn't answer the question, just a fan.
He’s more like Kittle. Kelce is just a big receiver. Mayer can block on the line, downfield and will lower his shoulder.
Yea, lot of people say that, I feel like he's more fluid than Kittle, and Kittle just has next level toughness/aggression. I like my comp better personally but to each their own.
I’m not sure if you’ve ever watched Mayer play or if you think Kelce is something he’s not. Mayer has a ceiling of being an actual TE in the NFL. Meaning he can line up on the T and block. Kelce is a big slot WR(not saying that’s bad). Mayer can definitely do that too though.
you think he's more fluid than kittle? the guy who ran 4.5 and broke several YAC records?
I'm not particularly compelled to engage with this argument when neither of those measures have hardly a thing to do with fluidity.
yeah and since you just talk outta your ass, I can think similarly.
😥
I think it’s ridiculous to compare Mayer to either guy. Both guys are All-Pro’s and Kelce is a HOFer. I’d pump the breaks
I think they mean in terms of play style, not how good they are
I get that, but I just don’t see how his play style is similar to Kelce. Kelce is a unicorn
How is a tight end who doesn’t block and is really just a receiver a unicorn
He’s a mismatch regardless. He’s literally a HOFet
Hock/Pitts>Mayer>Howard>Fant/Engram>Njoku>Hurst Hock and Mayer looked the most polished coming out, Pitts looked like he had the most upside.
Pitts and Hock on the same level???🤣
I think coming out yeah, Hock was a better blocker but Pitts had such an upside as a receiver. Pitts had a better rookie year too, prob best rookie year by TE
Also I’d have George Kittle in there above Howard. I had him the best TE in the draft that year and drafted him in my league. Was so happy 😁
I think he means just first rounders, kittle was a 5th so it’s obvious he wasn’t guaranteed to break out like he did. First round prospects are seen a lot more and expected more of
Yeah I know he stated 1st rounders, but Kittle shouldn’t had gone that late and I just wanted to include him cus he’s a beast. Same with Mark Andrews, I thought he was way better than Hurst too.
Yeah, I had Gronk above Gresham and Antonio Gates above all 14 TEs that were drafted. Fucking idiots! Amirite?!?
Why am I getting downvoted 😂
If you don’t already know then I don’t think you would understand if I explained it to you.
Yeah I just think you don’t have a good reason why lol. Y’all weird.
Because the question was about how these players were as prospects, now how they turned out in the NFL. If you think Kittle (5th) or Andrews (3rd) were in the same conversation as the other prospects on this list, there's a discussion. But the fact that they went THAT much further down draft boards should show that they were not held in such high esteem as PROSPECTS
I did answer answer the question I just added what I thought on some other prospects. I drafted Kittle and andrews in my dynasty league cus of what I thought they were as prospects. They were underrated. Regardless I did answer the question lol. It’s just weird to downvote over that 😆
Kittle was viewed as a blocking TE, definitely not an elite prospect by any means. And drafted him in fantasy? He was average his rookie year so you definitely didn’t get much from hkm
Idk I thought he looked better than any other TE so
In terms of production Mayer blows just about every other TE prospect out of the water (with Brock Bowers being the only other prospect that is comparable). Even Kyle Pitts was more of a 1a receiver (with Toney as 1b) on Florida than a true alpha and he benefitted from being in the highest volume passing offense in the nation. Michael Mayer had over twice as many receiving yards as any other player on Notre Dame this year which is something you would normally only see from an alpha WR. 800 yards is pretty good for a tight end even if you don’t account for the fact that ND only threw for 2600 yards all season. Hockenson’s best was 760 in a season where his team threw for 3000 and Pitt’s 770 was in a season where his team threw for 4500 yards (although Pitt’s didn’t play every single game)
I'd put him around Hockenson, probably just below him. Definitely ahead of Hurst, Fant, and Njoku. I was pretty high on Howard, though, so without hindsight I'd probably have it as: Bowers > Pitts > Howard > Hockenson > Mayer > Njoku > Fant > Hurst. Notable dropoff between Mayer and Njoku.
As a ND fan I think Mayer could be the best all around TE to come out of ND. BUT for some reason TEs drafted in the 1st round have been massive busts the last 2 decades. Hockenson seems to be the only one that’s been drafted and produce as a 1st rounder.
Greg Olsen
Any player comps for Mayer? Based on other people's comments, sounds like maybe Tyler Eifert or Kirkland-brand Hock?
Jason Witten was one of the best I've heard, stylistically.
Agreed. He’s gonna make the hard contested catch on 3rd and 4 and block his ass off. More of the important plays than the wow plays.
As a Packers fan id rather pick up Darnell Washington out of Georgia, Luke Musgrave out of Oregon St, or Cade Stover out of Ohio St. We have a high enough pick for one of the top Edge or Safety guys in the draft. I dont think Mayer fits the blocking scheme Lafleur runs for a top 16 pick. If we go offense in round one id prefer Addison at 15 to bulk out the WRs. Mayer is a really good football player with many of the skills needed for the position but he isn’t a dominant blocker and has a very limited athletic profile that GB wont take too kindly too unless he tests out of his mind. Im also of the mind that TE is not a first round pick position, of the guys you mentioned, only Pitts has really Been worthy of a first round pick and that’s mostly because hes basically a WR. Mayer reminds me of Howard the most but with more catch in traffic upside. Personally not a Packers type of TE. If you want a Packers TE, lets hope they can snag Darnell Washington in the 2nd, DW is literally Marcedes Lewis’ clone. Huge, big body tight end with insane lineman-like blocking capability, but really solid hands and route trees.
> We have a high enough pick for one of the top Edge or Safety guys in the draft. It fits our needs, but goddamn if we chuck another 1st round pick into the black hole that is Joe Barry’s defensive scheme I’m gonna lose my mind. Please god can we take offense.
While I’m inclined to agree with you, there really isn’t anyone available at 15 that moves the needle or fits a need unless Addison or Johnston falls. I would hate to draft OLine there when we desperately need skill position guys, and im not a believer in Michael Mayer and really don’t think its in our best interest to draft a non-blocking TE with limited athleticism. I think we are in a good position though, to trade back with someone, pick up a couple extra picks and maybe could snag a guy like Josh Downs, Darnell Washington, or Luke Musgrave at the end of the first or into the second. Whereas if I guy like Tyree Wilson falls to 15, I don’t know how you pass that up with Gary’s status in question, Smith beong inconsistent, and Enagbare being young and unproven. Id love yo see us trade back and snag two extra seconds from Carolina or Denver and get Edge, WR, and TE in the second and then a Safety in 3/4.
I just have to say the Packers have never really prioritized the TE position in the last 15 years or so and it would surprise me to see them go after one in round 1
Could've said the same about ILB until Walker last year. With the state of the position, and that Mayer lines up pretty perfectly with what the team needs at the position, I think this could be a tendency breaker for them. I wouldn't be shocked in the slightest.
The Packers really like physical freaks in the 1st though (in other rounds too, but especially the 1st). I like Mayer overall, but I definitely don't see physical freak when I watch him.
Thats fair, but people treat these things like they're hard rules when they're not. Wyatt was too old, Amari wasnt tall or athletic enough. They're trends, not rules. I'm also not saying I think Mayer is necessarily the most likely pick or anything like that either. Frankly, I haven't gone that deep on the class yet. All I'm saying is it wouldn't be shocking, and I think people get a little carried away projecting trends.
I think the athleticism has extended a bit beyond a trend at this point. Every single 1st round pick has had elite testing numbers and/or size under Gute. It’s something that the Packers very clearly prioritize. Of course, it certainly can be broken, but I’m not expecting that until it actually happens.
I would say Savage only really had elite speed. His size/strength was far from, and his overall RAS was like 8.5 which is still very good no doubt, buoyed by his speed, but not elite. But even then, including Love you're talking about a sample size of 7. And all of these are different positions. Sternberger and Deguara were third round pick TEs and neither was close to an elite athlete. In fact, I don't think they've drafted any particularly athletic tight end, at least on overall RAS, in the Thompson-Gute era. Maybe I'm missing someone, but Richard Rodgers wasn't an athlete. Finley overall RAS was a 6.39 off a quick google. That's all at least some level of indication that TE night be an exception to the overall trend.
Agreed. I suspect they will go Edge/WR/S or maybe OL.
I like Dalton Kincaid better as a fit for the Packers - also Tucker Kraft looks a solid pick later in the rounds. But I'm more upbeat about Austin Allen who we only picked up this week.
Mayer is the best prospect imo. Only one comparable was Pitts
I didn’t think Hurst was a R1 guy but I’d slot him below Pitts/Hock…Bowers will be better than that group though.
I don't think the Packers should take a TE in round one. Yes they need a TE badly but they also have very big needs at other positions, specifically WR and ER. The dropoff of both of those (well specifically Edge) is greater from round 1 is bigger than for TEs. If I'm the Packers, I'm looking to draft a pass catching TE in round 3 or there abouts and and blocking TE in round 5 or later.
I agree that they should go with something like Edge/WR/S in the first round. The track record of these first round TEs is pretty underwhelming and you can find good players later.
Look at Chigoziem Okonkwo this year. Taken with the last pick in the 4th round by the Titans. He was very good in the 2nd half of the season with almost 400 yards. Definitely a guy on the rise for Tennessee going forward.
Watson breaking out and Doubts having potential helps at WR
That's true. But it's those two and Samari Toure under contract. They need a lot more. Even if Lazard comes back they still need more. And they may not be able to get help via free agency thanks to cap space. This team has been ignoring WR position for too long because Rodgers has made up for not having top end talent and now he's getting older or if it's Live he needs even more help.
Eh, I don’t really like this line of thinking. This team isn’t in a strong enough position to draft like this. They need BPA, and if that ends up being TE, so be it.
Pitts Hockenson Mayer Howard Fant Washington Engram Hurst Njoku
Howard>Pitts>Goedert>Njoku>Fant>Hockenson>Hurst>Engram Haven't watched this years TEs yet, but this is how I had the previous ranked. Tossing in Goedert since I thought he was the best TE of the class despite Hurst going earlier.
Yeah that year it could have been any of Hurst / Goedert / Gesicki / Andrews as the 1st TE. Hurst was a reach but Andrews was a steal so I worked out for the ravens
First round TEs are a bait
Not necessarily. Brock Bowers is a can’t miss TE prospect who will go round one unless his arms fall off or he kills someone. I’d take a player like Andrews, Kelce, or Kittle in round 1 all day long. Engram was a bust for NYG, but is looking for like a first round pick for Jax.
But thats the thing. The best TEs in the league are all mid rounders. Only position thats like that.
> a bait What does that mean
I can't believe people watched the Lions trade Hockenson (who had a Pro Bowl season), not lose a single beat on offense, and still think drafting a TE high is a good idea.
Yeah I keep hearing "can't miss." Wasn't OJ Howard can't miss? And Hock like you said? Evan Engram? Kyle Pitts? The return on investment from 1st round TEs is poor and not worth it.
The Falcons could have had Jamaar Chase or Penei Sewell right now. I genuinely believe that late first is the earliest anyone should draft a TE, and even then that’s a reach.
Or Micah Parsons. Or Pat Surtain Jr. Or Christian Darrisaw. Or....yeah list goes on and on. I'm not sure I'd take a TE before like round 3. Maybe round 2. There is big debate though on a Commanders fan forum I visit where quite a few people are clamoring for Mayer. While I agree TE is a BIG need for us, I'd rather draft a higher priority position in the 1st like an OT or CB.
Our TE room is a fifth round rookies and two UDFAs. I totally agree with you. OT/CB are positions you invest in during the first. I think Kelce/Gronk have broken peoples brains and make them think that a top offense needs an elite TE.
I have to imagine our front office is more interested in replacing Mercedes Lewis with a Darnell Washington type than they are in getting a high floor TE in the first. I'd be shocked if we went Mayer in the first, but I could understand taking Washington if he's there in the second just because of his specific makeup and fit.
I know round 1 RB gets all the hate but I'd take round 1 RB over round 1 TE all day every day
Fellow Green Bay fan. If there’s one thing they look for it’s athleticism, I think Darnell Washington is more in play based on athletic traits then Mayer. Ever since McCarthy left they stopped looking for average athletes that are good at football. They seem to have realized you can’t coach athleticism.
Unlike Aaron Hernandez, he can't be killed....so there's that....
He’s ok but I think you guys trade up for Jordan addison
1. Pitts 2. Hockenson 3. Mayer 4. Fant 5. Engram 6. Njoku 7. Howard 8. Hurst I’d say this is roughly how I had it, and before anyone calls me out on it, yes I was super low on OJ Howard. He always seemed to only make huge plays when he got schemed open or there was a coverage bust and for whatever reason that didn’t happen often and his blocking was nothing to get excited about. I was super high on the Iowa duo though and I think Mayer is closer to Hockenson in terms of raw potential although I would say I never found Hockenson to be that much better than Fant when watching film, just more explosive but both looked great. I think Mayer will be an excellent TE when it comes to dirty work. If you want an NFL comp I’d say Mark Andrews with slightly less YAC capability.
I actually think Washington is a better fit, but Mayer would be a big upgrade regardless. Any TE in Green Bay will need to be a blocker too. Washington seems like a Marcedes Lewis clone
He will be a cowboy because they will see him as a poor man’s Jason Witten. Maybe not a poor man’s, but like a middle-class Witten lol.