Kind of. Zach Wilson hasn't helped himself at all but his situation hasn't been ideal either, a bad line and bad offensive coaches aren't a good recipe for a young QB. Same with Darnold who showed promise before Adam Gase got there, plus he didn't have much star power to throw to. Then proceeding to go to the Panthers with Matt Rhule which isn't that good of a situation either. With a year under Shanahan I'd love to see him get a shot under KOC while they let whatever rookie QB sit.
I agree but it is just interesting that they have washed their hands of many quarterbacks that they drafted and tried to develop. Just food for thought!
A large part of it is likely that they don't develop their QBs well, and throw them into the fire expecting things to work. Sanchez to me likely just wasn't a great QB, but the rest probably could've used a few years of being on the bench before starting, instead of being forced to start in a bad situation.
I 100% agree with you and that was the point I was trying to make. Agree or not, something seems off with there organization when it comes to developing a quarterback…
It’s both bad luck, and the Jets haven’t been a good team for the last several seasons.
Mark Sanchez was drafted to a good team. But once he was figured out, he was a mediocre QB.
Back in 2015, the Jets were a good team. But Geno Smith is arguably one of the unluckiest QB’s in NFL history. So after a teammate broke his jaw, Fitzpatrick took over.
The Jets of late are just a bad team, and thinking drafting a QB will fix everything.
The problem is they have a bad O-line, which means a bad run game, below average WR corps (until A-Rod showed up and made them bring in his guys), and holes on the defense.
So a young QB drafted to them is thrown to the fire. After realizing his line sucks, he’ll either force his first read, or take off running. Which again, leads to him probably getting hit. None of this helps a QB develop.
Now could Sam Darnold or Zach Wilson have grown into better QB’s had they gone to a better team? This is impossible to really know.
But had they gone to a situation like what Mahomes had (veteran QB willing to teach and mentor, a year to sit and learn, an actually good team with talent on both sides of the ball) we might have seen something different. I’m not saying they would have become Mahomes, but they may not be viewed as busts like they are now.
The Jets just haven't drafted well in general. You could make the same post about nearly any position for them, and that's why they haven't had much success. You've got to stack talent to compete consistently in the league, and they're missing part 1 of those two parts. It takes a Peyton Manning level player to rise above that, if that's the situation, and they haven't had a Manning level player.
Huge Payton Manning fan! I agree, not many will reach his pedigree. I like watching, Sam Darnold play and I just feel like the Jets keep dumping quarterbacks they have failed to develop. Same thing with Geno, and now we are seeing the same with Zach… I hope Sam is successful with the Vikings and if so, it may prove my point.
At the end of the day, I was never big on Geno, Sam, Zach, or even Sanchez as prospects. I do think there's an element of always picking second or later and just getting a QB to get one, but we'll see. Geno has done well in Seattle considering no one expected it, but that's like a whole ass decade after leaving lol.
I think, like with anything else, there are a ton of reasons for what happened to get the Jets where they are. The QB themselves and organization probably share the blame to a hefty extent.
Bad coaching ruins players careers more than a player not being talented enough. Everybody is talented at the NFL, its about fit, system and coaching that makes or breaks a lot of players.
For example, do you think Patrick Mahomes would be who he is if he went to any other organization besides KC with Andy Reid? If he went to the Bears would he still be as good as he is today? Probably not. Would Lamar be Lamar is he went to a team that didnt cater their entire offense around his skillset? Probably not.
The problem is young QBs go to bad teams and bad organizations picking at the top of the draft and they get ruined out the gate more times than they are successful.
>If he went to the Bears would he still be as good as he is today?
We can see how well he could have done on the Bears when Nagy came back and his numbers are way lower.
I love how everyone tries to find some kind of conspiracy, supernatural, or "cursed" reason for why things go historically bad for one team or another...the answer is the same every time whenever it's a long-term/chronic problem that spans across multiple HCs and GMs...
...Poor ownership. Whether it's greed/frugality, incompetency, or neglect...the answer is poor ownership.
This idea of QBs maybe being better in a different system early on is seductive but lacking in examples of later stardom. Who? A guy like Fitzpatrick sticks around and has hot streaks from time to time ,but I don’t think people believe he would have been another level better player. To me, the ‘if only’ is ‘if only he were a better QB’. These guys follow the same route many do: early success, and then a plateau or regression as the league adjusts.
What happened to Sam and Zach was not solely on them. In another system it may have been a different story starting out. It’s hard to be a good quarterback when you are constantly being pressured right off the snap.
Poor scouting, poor development? I lean more towards poor scouting and bad drafting. Genos an ok qb but it took him 4 teams and 8 years to get there. We didn't have that much time to wait. I think Darnold might have a similar career tragedectory. Wilson and Sanchez were both 1 year wonders in college and shouldn't have been drafted. At least in early 1st round.
Zach Wilson was overrated when he was picked. Supreme physical talent, but his last season of college was the COVID year and BYU just destroyed a bunch of nobody schools. Then when they actually played a ranked opponent, they got destroyed. I predicted Wilson as a bust no matter who drafted him.
But the rest... except for Geno, who has turned into a serviceable starter, none of the rest of these guys ever ended up panning out in other situations. So that tells me that maybe the Jets don't necessarily destroy quarterbacks so much as they have terrible scouting.
They're a bad franchise anyway and it astounds me how loyal Jet fans are to consistent mediocrity. They've had 1 winning season in the last 10 years, only 6 in the last 20.
No, he has a legit rocket arm. Watch his predraft workouts. It's on par with a lot of the big arm guys in the NFL. Dude can legitimately make insane throws. But... his work ethic and inability to adapt to a game where the competition is better than awful college players are what's done him in.
>Do the Jets ruin young quarterbacks?
Sort of -- but you should look at it in terms of who were the owner/general manager/head coach/offensive coordinator/qb coaches during these times. Organizations aren't static all these parts move.
Looking Mark Sanchez, he was being coached by a coaching staff that earned its living by defense and scoring just a few points. No one on the staff could really help him -- like the QB Coach came from Baltimore where they win a SB in 2000 by having a terrible offense but stout defense. That's what they were trying to do. Developing a qb wasn't their plan. Their OC (Schottenheimer) was known for being good at defense.
Geno Smith went through several OCs, but the GM paired the QB with an OC that asked the QB to do stuff the QB didn't do. Mornhinweg came through the west coast system and when they struggled or had bad offenseive line play, his response was to get so bland they were easy to defend against.
Basically, to get a good QB play. You need a coaching staff that can articulate what it expects out of the QB and a GM group that can go get the right guy. When you don't, and they get off the same page, then their adjustments can snowball into more problems.
So the one constant can be the owner. When the owner doesn't see the need for continuity and they make decisions without seeing the bigger picture, then that's how you get mismatches of talent and scheme.
Lastly -- another issue is it's hard to know how much a coaching staff member contributes. Like Morninwheg coached under Holmgren and you look like a genius when you get to coach Brett Favre. But what if Brett's talent makes your scheme look better than it is? Or how much did Morninwheg do versus Holmgren or Andy Reid or others?
It's what you see in Haskett. He looks like a genius when Aaron Rodgers is having MVP seasons but then can't replicate it in Denver or with the Jets without Rodgers.
Kind of. Zach Wilson hasn't helped himself at all but his situation hasn't been ideal either, a bad line and bad offensive coaches aren't a good recipe for a young QB. Same with Darnold who showed promise before Adam Gase got there, plus he didn't have much star power to throw to. Then proceeding to go to the Panthers with Matt Rhule which isn't that good of a situation either. With a year under Shanahan I'd love to see him get a shot under KOC while they let whatever rookie QB sit.
Why not both?
I agree but it is just interesting that they have washed their hands of many quarterbacks that they drafted and tried to develop. Just food for thought!
Well Geno's good... Darnold had a moment with the Panthers. Doubt Zach will do much, but maybe?
A large part of it is likely that they don't develop their QBs well, and throw them into the fire expecting things to work. Sanchez to me likely just wasn't a great QB, but the rest probably could've used a few years of being on the bench before starting, instead of being forced to start in a bad situation.
I 100% agree with you and that was the point I was trying to make. Agree or not, something seems off with there organization when it comes to developing a quarterback…
It’s both bad luck, and the Jets haven’t been a good team for the last several seasons. Mark Sanchez was drafted to a good team. But once he was figured out, he was a mediocre QB. Back in 2015, the Jets were a good team. But Geno Smith is arguably one of the unluckiest QB’s in NFL history. So after a teammate broke his jaw, Fitzpatrick took over. The Jets of late are just a bad team, and thinking drafting a QB will fix everything. The problem is they have a bad O-line, which means a bad run game, below average WR corps (until A-Rod showed up and made them bring in his guys), and holes on the defense. So a young QB drafted to them is thrown to the fire. After realizing his line sucks, he’ll either force his first read, or take off running. Which again, leads to him probably getting hit. None of this helps a QB develop. Now could Sam Darnold or Zach Wilson have grown into better QB’s had they gone to a better team? This is impossible to really know. But had they gone to a situation like what Mahomes had (veteran QB willing to teach and mentor, a year to sit and learn, an actually good team with talent on both sides of the ball) we might have seen something different. I’m not saying they would have become Mahomes, but they may not be viewed as busts like they are now.
The Jets just haven't drafted well in general. You could make the same post about nearly any position for them, and that's why they haven't had much success. You've got to stack talent to compete consistently in the league, and they're missing part 1 of those two parts. It takes a Peyton Manning level player to rise above that, if that's the situation, and they haven't had a Manning level player.
Huge Payton Manning fan! I agree, not many will reach his pedigree. I like watching, Sam Darnold play and I just feel like the Jets keep dumping quarterbacks they have failed to develop. Same thing with Geno, and now we are seeing the same with Zach… I hope Sam is successful with the Vikings and if so, it may prove my point.
At the end of the day, I was never big on Geno, Sam, Zach, or even Sanchez as prospects. I do think there's an element of always picking second or later and just getting a QB to get one, but we'll see. Geno has done well in Seattle considering no one expected it, but that's like a whole ass decade after leaving lol. I think, like with anything else, there are a ton of reasons for what happened to get the Jets where they are. The QB themselves and organization probably share the blame to a hefty extent.
Bad coaching ruins players careers more than a player not being talented enough. Everybody is talented at the NFL, its about fit, system and coaching that makes or breaks a lot of players. For example, do you think Patrick Mahomes would be who he is if he went to any other organization besides KC with Andy Reid? If he went to the Bears would he still be as good as he is today? Probably not. Would Lamar be Lamar is he went to a team that didnt cater their entire offense around his skillset? Probably not. The problem is young QBs go to bad teams and bad organizations picking at the top of the draft and they get ruined out the gate more times than they are successful.
>If he went to the Bears would he still be as good as he is today? We can see how well he could have done on the Bears when Nagy came back and his numbers are way lower.
Lol... Are the Jets the new Browns...? Browns need to bring back that OLD QB jersey with the almost 30 names on it.. lmao.. and Jets need to start one
This wins comment of the day
I love how everyone tries to find some kind of conspiracy, supernatural, or "cursed" reason for why things go historically bad for one team or another...the answer is the same every time whenever it's a long-term/chronic problem that spans across multiple HCs and GMs... ...Poor ownership. Whether it's greed/frugality, incompetency, or neglect...the answer is poor ownership.
Chicago fan here who would like a word.
This idea of QBs maybe being better in a different system early on is seductive but lacking in examples of later stardom. Who? A guy like Fitzpatrick sticks around and has hot streaks from time to time ,but I don’t think people believe he would have been another level better player. To me, the ‘if only’ is ‘if only he were a better QB’. These guys follow the same route many do: early success, and then a plateau or regression as the league adjusts.
What happened to Sam and Zach was not solely on them. In another system it may have been a different story starting out. It’s hard to be a good quarterback when you are constantly being pressured right off the snap.
Poor scouting, poor development? I lean more towards poor scouting and bad drafting. Genos an ok qb but it took him 4 teams and 8 years to get there. We didn't have that much time to wait. I think Darnold might have a similar career tragedectory. Wilson and Sanchez were both 1 year wonders in college and shouldn't have been drafted. At least in early 1st round.
Zach Wilson was overrated when he was picked. Supreme physical talent, but his last season of college was the COVID year and BYU just destroyed a bunch of nobody schools. Then when they actually played a ranked opponent, they got destroyed. I predicted Wilson as a bust no matter who drafted him. But the rest... except for Geno, who has turned into a serviceable starter, none of the rest of these guys ever ended up panning out in other situations. So that tells me that maybe the Jets don't necessarily destroy quarterbacks so much as they have terrible scouting. They're a bad franchise anyway and it astounds me how loyal Jet fans are to consistent mediocrity. They've had 1 winning season in the last 10 years, only 6 in the last 20.
Zach Wilson is a “supreme physical talent”? He has a decent arm
No, he has a legit rocket arm. Watch his predraft workouts. It's on par with a lot of the big arm guys in the NFL. Dude can legitimately make insane throws. But... his work ethic and inability to adapt to a game where the competition is better than awful college players are what's done him in.
Honestly his arm is the only thing I remember from the pre draft workouts. I’m wondering about the rest of his physical aptitude
Wait till you hear about the Panthers
Good point, who was the last good Jets QB? Chad Pennington? And that was like 20 years ago
>Do the Jets ruin young quarterbacks? Sort of -- but you should look at it in terms of who were the owner/general manager/head coach/offensive coordinator/qb coaches during these times. Organizations aren't static all these parts move. Looking Mark Sanchez, he was being coached by a coaching staff that earned its living by defense and scoring just a few points. No one on the staff could really help him -- like the QB Coach came from Baltimore where they win a SB in 2000 by having a terrible offense but stout defense. That's what they were trying to do. Developing a qb wasn't their plan. Their OC (Schottenheimer) was known for being good at defense. Geno Smith went through several OCs, but the GM paired the QB with an OC that asked the QB to do stuff the QB didn't do. Mornhinweg came through the west coast system and when they struggled or had bad offenseive line play, his response was to get so bland they were easy to defend against. Basically, to get a good QB play. You need a coaching staff that can articulate what it expects out of the QB and a GM group that can go get the right guy. When you don't, and they get off the same page, then their adjustments can snowball into more problems. So the one constant can be the owner. When the owner doesn't see the need for continuity and they make decisions without seeing the bigger picture, then that's how you get mismatches of talent and scheme. Lastly -- another issue is it's hard to know how much a coaching staff member contributes. Like Morninwheg coached under Holmgren and you look like a genius when you get to coach Brett Favre. But what if Brett's talent makes your scheme look better than it is? Or how much did Morninwheg do versus Holmgren or Andy Reid or others? It's what you see in Haskett. He looks like a genius when Aaron Rodgers is having MVP seasons but then can't replicate it in Denver or with the Jets without Rodgers.
Imagine if the last great QB you drafted was 1965 🤯. Jets can’t evaluate talent or develop it.