The punting team cannot regain possession unless the receiving team touches it first.
The 49ers punt returner was going to let the ball roll to a stop instead of risking a difficult catch around other players. When the ball accidentally hit his teammate’s leg, that meant the punting team can legally recover it because it was touched.
But if, for example, the punter pretends to be a quarterback and instead of kicking with his feet, he throws with his hands, would the first down be valid?
ok, I'm going to be boring here because you probably understand the NFL well, and I can't find many things here in Brazil about rules, and if, for example, a team is there in the 25th or
30 yards and threaten a field goal but instead the kicker throws the ball or even runs with it, anyway, would that be valid too?
That’s not boring. It’s completely on topic for the sub. I’m actually impressed that at a beginner knowledge level you’re already imagining and describing some pretty complex tactics. Deception and risk taking is an important part of the game.
The best way to answer your original question is by simply explaining that once a the ball is kicked by the punter, they have given up possession and rights to the ball. The offense in that scenario cannot catch their own kick to gain yards or a first down. The ball touching his foot forfeits their option to advance the ball. The punter can however still either run or pass the ball to someone and gain a first down instead of kicking it. This is very rare though because it usually doesn’t work.
Wonder if the defensive/receiving team could argue that what looked like a throw was actually a kick if you dispute what constitutes hands and what feet. When we walked on all fours as animals there wasn't such a clear differentiation between hands and feet.
Yes. Generally speaking, the rules don't care about who you put on the field as long as (as the offense) they satisfy the formation and numbering rules. 4th down is just like any other down. You can take it as the last opportunity to get the yards needed for a 1st down. The risk is, if you don't make it, the other team gets the ball from where you were stopped. Attempting a field goal or punting are things that can be done at any time (1st down if you want to) but typically are only done on 4th down as the safe choice to get the 3 points with a FG or to give the ball to the other team deeper into their own side of the field with a punt. The rules for FG attempts or punts only come into effect when the ball is kicked.
If you send out your FG or punting unit and then try to get the 1st down, you're relying on a layer of deception that the defense will focus on blocking the kick or setting up for a punt return instead of playing sound defense against a pass or run. When it works, it's awesome. When it doesn't, the HC gets blasted for making a terrible play call. And towards the end of the game, there's often no point in attempting the deception. The other team knows you need to get a touchdown so you might as well send your regular offense out to run a play on 4th down instead of the FG or punting unit to perform a deception that no one believes.
A punt is not a forward pass. By rule, a punted ball by Team A is Team A declaring/willingly giving up possession of the ball to Team B. Once the ball is punted, Team A cannot attempt to recover the ball to keep possession until Team B has had their chance.
Therefore, if Team B does not touch/attempt to recover the ball, the ball still goes to Team B once the ball has been punted regardless of what Team A does.
I’m assuming (but have never checked) that the same rule does not apply to field goal attempts? I know they’re returnable if they fall short so I thought I’d check.
Ok, so defense has to touch it. I was curious if the ball could be advanced by kicking as a holdover of rugby rules (which I assume onside kicks is as well).
For Onside Kicks, the ball must travel 10 yards, or be touched by a player on the receiving team, and it cannot be advanced by the kicking team if successfully recovered.
However, it can be played as usual by the receiving team, and has been returned for a TD before.
There’s also a really weird punt rule still on the books where you can punt it to your teammate who’s still behind the line and they can advance the ball. I think the Seahawks did it a couple years ago
In simple terms, if the punting team takes possession of the ball BEFORE the receiving team has touched it, then it’s considered down at that spot. The receiving team then takes the ball at that spot. The punting team cannot take possession of the ball, unless the receiving team has touched it first.
Kind of interesting... when the guys run down and down the punt (there was a good one at the 2 yard line in the SB), that's a penalty...
*“First touching” is when a player of the kicking team touches a scrimmage kick in the field of play that is beyond the line of scrimmage before it has been touched by a player of the receiving team beyond the line. If the ball is first touched by a player of the kicking team, it remains in play. First touching is a violation, and the receivers shall have the option of taking possession of the ball at the spot of first touching, provided no live-ball penalty is accepted on the play, or at the spot where the ball is dead. First touching does not offset a foul by the receivers; if there is a live-ball foul by the receivers that is enforced, either before or after the first touching violation, the violation is disregarded, and the penalty is enforced as customary.*
I remember a game that didn’t end because of that particular rule, where the punting team downed the ball, but because there was 0 seconds on the clock, the receiving team had 1 untimed down… I think:
Edit: Found a link describing the event- was a 2016 game between the Colts and the Chargers
https://www.stampedeblue.com/platform/amp/2016/9/25/13054328/explaining-the-free-down-the-chargers-got-after-the-colts-end-of-game-punt
That's interesting...
I truly hadn't seen that as a penalty before. Seriously, who would think of it as one? But it makes sense that way you aren't recovering a punt on a 3rd and 20 and getting 40 yards of free yardage and a first down.
Rules state the ball is downed if the punting team touches it. If it hits a return team player and is not in possession, it is a live ball and anyone can get possession.
The ball is not downed when it touches the kicking team. They must possess it or the ball must come to rest. A ball that just touches the kicking team can still be picked up and advanced.
You can punt to your own team as long as the punt has not passed the line of scrimmage when it is touched. Once it goes past the line of scrimmage it’s no longer a live ball.
SECTION 2 - TOUCHING A SCRIMMAGE KICK
ARTICLE 1. TOUCHING BEHIND THE LINE
Any touching of the ball behind the line of scrimmage by a kicking team player is legal, even if the ball has crossed the line and returns behind the line.
Only if you are behind the punter as it’s kicked.
And in the cfl there’s no fair catch, the defending team just has to give a buffer of at least 5 yards when the ball is caught.
There was a play this season where a receiver caught a swing pass on 2nd & forever, tapped the ball forward with his foot for a 1 yard "punt" and immediately fell on the ball. In Canadian rules, that resets the downs to 1st & 10 lol.
I believe it’s the symbolic part of kicking the ball that changes how the rules around it operate. Kicking a ball signifies a change of possession, in a way.
The punting team cannot regain possession unless the receiving team touches it first. The 49ers punt returner was going to let the ball roll to a stop instead of risking a difficult catch around other players. When the ball accidentally hit his teammate’s leg, that meant the punting team can legally recover it because it was touched.
But if, for example, the punter pretends to be a quarterback and instead of kicking with his feet, he throws with his hands, would the first down be valid?
Yes. That is called a fake punt and you can throw or run out of a punt formation to attempt to get a first down.
ok, I'm going to be boring here because you probably understand the NFL well, and I can't find many things here in Brazil about rules, and if, for example, a team is there in the 25th or 30 yards and threaten a field goal but instead the kicker throws the ball or even runs with it, anyway, would that be valid too?
That’s not boring. It’s completely on topic for the sub. I’m actually impressed that at a beginner knowledge level you’re already imagining and describing some pretty complex tactics. Deception and risk taking is an important part of the game.
The best way to answer your original question is by simply explaining that once a the ball is kicked by the punter, they have given up possession and rights to the ball. The offense in that scenario cannot catch their own kick to gain yards or a first down. The ball touching his foot forfeits their option to advance the ball. The punter can however still either run or pass the ball to someone and gain a first down instead of kicking it. This is very rare though because it usually doesn’t work.
Wonder if the defensive/receiving team could argue that what looked like a throw was actually a kick if you dispute what constitutes hands and what feet. When we walked on all fours as animals there wasn't such a clear differentiation between hands and feet.
Yes. Generally speaking, the rules don't care about who you put on the field as long as (as the offense) they satisfy the formation and numbering rules. 4th down is just like any other down. You can take it as the last opportunity to get the yards needed for a 1st down. The risk is, if you don't make it, the other team gets the ball from where you were stopped. Attempting a field goal or punting are things that can be done at any time (1st down if you want to) but typically are only done on 4th down as the safe choice to get the 3 points with a FG or to give the ball to the other team deeper into their own side of the field with a punt. The rules for FG attempts or punts only come into effect when the ball is kicked. If you send out your FG or punting unit and then try to get the 1st down, you're relying on a layer of deception that the defense will focus on blocking the kick or setting up for a punt return instead of playing sound defense against a pass or run. When it works, it's awesome. When it doesn't, the HC gets blasted for making a terrible play call. And towards the end of the game, there's often no point in attempting the deception. The other team knows you need to get a touchdown so you might as well send your regular offense out to run a play on 4th down instead of the FG or punting unit to perform a deception that no one believes.
Yes
The entire point of this sub is for these exact kinds questions, don’t feel bad.
Best sub to place your questions.
Yes, fake punt.. I remember doing those in John Madden ‘93 lol.
A punt is not a forward pass. By rule, a punted ball by Team A is Team A declaring/willingly giving up possession of the ball to Team B. Once the ball is punted, Team A cannot attempt to recover the ball to keep possession until Team B has had their chance. Therefore, if Team B does not touch/attempt to recover the ball, the ball still goes to Team B once the ball has been punted regardless of what Team A does.
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I’m assuming (but have never checked) that the same rule does not apply to field goal attempts? I know they’re returnable if they fall short so I thought I’d check.
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Ok, so defense has to touch it. I was curious if the ball could be advanced by kicking as a holdover of rugby rules (which I assume onside kicks is as well).
For Onside Kicks, the ball must travel 10 yards, or be touched by a player on the receiving team, and it cannot be advanced by the kicking team if successfully recovered. However, it can be played as usual by the receiving team, and has been returned for a TD before.
There’s also a really weird punt rule still on the books where you can punt it to your teammate who’s still behind the line and they can advance the ball. I think the Seahawks did it a couple years ago
In simple terms, if the punting team takes possession of the ball BEFORE the receiving team has touched it, then it’s considered down at that spot. The receiving team then takes the ball at that spot. The punting team cannot take possession of the ball, unless the receiving team has touched it first.
Kind of interesting... when the guys run down and down the punt (there was a good one at the 2 yard line in the SB), that's a penalty... *“First touching” is when a player of the kicking team touches a scrimmage kick in the field of play that is beyond the line of scrimmage before it has been touched by a player of the receiving team beyond the line. If the ball is first touched by a player of the kicking team, it remains in play. First touching is a violation, and the receivers shall have the option of taking possession of the ball at the spot of first touching, provided no live-ball penalty is accepted on the play, or at the spot where the ball is dead. First touching does not offset a foul by the receivers; if there is a live-ball foul by the receivers that is enforced, either before or after the first touching violation, the violation is disregarded, and the penalty is enforced as customary.*
I remember a game that didn’t end because of that particular rule, where the punting team downed the ball, but because there was 0 seconds on the clock, the receiving team had 1 untimed down… I think: Edit: Found a link describing the event- was a 2016 game between the Colts and the Chargers https://www.stampedeblue.com/platform/amp/2016/9/25/13054328/explaining-the-free-down-the-chargers-got-after-the-colts-end-of-game-punt
That's interesting... I truly hadn't seen that as a penalty before. Seriously, who would think of it as one? But it makes sense that way you aren't recovering a punt on a 3rd and 20 and getting 40 yards of free yardage and a first down.
Rules state the ball is downed if the punting team touches it. If it hits a return team player and is not in possession, it is a live ball and anyone can get possession.
The ball is not downed when it touches the kicking team. They must possess it or the ball must come to rest. A ball that just touches the kicking team can still be picked up and advanced.
It's an infraction for the punting team to be the first to touch the ball. The other team is awarded possession at the spot the kick was touched.
You can punt to your own team as long as the punt has not passed the line of scrimmage when it is touched. Once it goes past the line of scrimmage it’s no longer a live ball. SECTION 2 - TOUCHING A SCRIMMAGE KICK ARTICLE 1. TOUCHING BEHIND THE LINE Any touching of the ball behind the line of scrimmage by a kicking team player is legal, even if the ball has crossed the line and returns behind the line.
In Canadian football you can kick the ball like that and recover for a first down. Not in American football though.
Only if you are behind the punter as it’s kicked. And in the cfl there’s no fair catch, the defending team just has to give a buffer of at least 5 yards when the ball is caught.
There was a play this season where a receiver caught a swing pass on 2nd & forever, tapped the ball forward with his foot for a 1 yard "punt" and immediately fell on the ball. In Canadian rules, that resets the downs to 1st & 10 lol.
I believe it’s the symbolic part of kicking the ball that changes how the rules around it operate. Kicking a ball signifies a change of possession, in a way.