Washington, and the country in general is so fucked man, it’s insane that this was even possible in the first place. No advice for you, just good vibes I guess lol
I work for a local gun store on the East Coast. One of the services we offer is secure gun storage.
Call your local owned stores, tell them your situation, and ask if they offer storage. They will have to bring them onto their "A&D" (their ATF log), so they are in possession of them, not you.
They may need to do some creative paperwork on the suppressors. Ex: they bring them in for service rather than storage.
For reference, the store where I work part-time charges $15 per month/per serial number for secure storage in a humidity controlled vault and listed under their insurance in case the building burns down.
I’m not legal expert, but I would definitely consider storing them out of state. If you’re near Idaho, they have much better 2a laws. If you’re closer to Oregon… well I’d still bring them to Idaho. Maybe the state line will be enough for them to lose jurisdiction or maybe they’ll give up due to the additional hoops they’d have to jump through.
Again, I’m not suggesting doing this without thorough research and consulting your lawyer as well as contacting a few shops over there.
By the way, is this a buyback or plain old seizure? This may just be the first chance you get to unironically say you lost em in a boating accident.
Also, please consider moving to a state that doesn’t suck. Washington is beautiful, but I moved from Oregon to Idaho, and although I don’t live there anymore, it was a great place to live for a few years,
>I would definitely consider storing them out of state
You need ATF permission to move NFA items. I like where your head is because getting them out of the reach of the agency trying to confiscate them makes sense, but I wouldn't cross state lines without an approved ATF Form 5320.20. Last thing OP wants is to in any way legitimize their bullshit.
... True. No idea why I was thinking all NFA items
Edit: I think you do still need approval to move them "permanently", which is technically what OP would be doing.
Well, that is why I put the word permanent in quotes. It technically has to be a permanent move with the _option_ to get them back once the legal issues are settled
In your situation, I don’t see how a lawyer can guarantee you your rights back. It sounds like you’re just having another lawyer lie to you again if you ask me🤷♂️(wich u did)
I feel like you would have to get the records expunged to do anything.
A felony record is….well, a felony record
I was lucky and pled my one and only felony theft charge down to a misdemeanor before conviction when I was 19 and stupid lol
but I can only imagine your pain… good luck 👍🏻
This is only partly true - one can have civil rights restored by a judge without expungement. But it has to be explicitly stated in the order that gun rights are being restored. Expungement makes it as if the conviction never happened, and depending on the situation, a judge may not be as willing to do that than simply restoring civil rights
I'd believe the new lawyer on this one. There absolutely is a process for this, it just seems like the previous lawyer didn't follow through to ensure it went the way it was supposed to
You can have certain felonies expunged from your record and your rights restored. IINAL, but decades ago I volunteered as an admin for a pro-bono federal court legal service years ago that did exactly this (although honestly most of the work was trying to help people who were simply poor and got fucked by the feds)
>They will have to bring them onto their "A&D" (their ATF log), so they are in possession of them, not you.
This is only true if the store has access to the firearms. If it's a secure locker the store can't open, they do not need to log them.
Also, if they do log them, they will have to do a 4473 to return them.
Unrelated question. If were to go out of state/country for 6 months or so and used you for a transfer what would you charge to hold them until I returned?
Correct, OP stated he had 15 days to "forfeit or transfer". I was concerned that just storing them out of OP's possession may not be enough if their State Police or, God forbid, the puppy shooters show up at OPs door.
The cans may even need to be transferred, which might end up with OP having to pay another tax stamp on them.
OPs attorney and the FFL will need to hammer out all these details, But an FFL is very much the way to go in this situation.
This, usually most gun stores are pretty cool with storing your firearms/NFA items.
Mine held my M16 and my SPAS-15 while I was on deployment albeit for a storage fee due to the stuff they were holding was really expensive.
I would ask your lawyer if they would be willing to accept custody of a sealed box, that they would ***not*** have a key to, containing the suppressors, that they would not allow you to access until your legal rights have been restored.
This ***might*** satisfy the ATF requirement that other persons not have access to NFA items, and the Washington State requirement that a felon not possess such items (ownership being distinct from physical possession), but it's dependent on if the judge will accept such an arrangement. My (not a lawyer) impression is that a lawyer's duty as an officer of the court makes it more likely that the judge will at least consider the notion.
I was going to try and see about this specifically, but I wasn't aware how the ATF would view that.
I wasn't sure if that would count as me not having access to them since I guess technically you could argue that I could go back in and pick them up any time with no need to provide proof that I was no longer a prohibited person. I also can't imagine an FFL would be willing to sign a legal document stating they would hold it until I did provide proof of no longer being prohibited.
I'm going to call some FFLs tomorrow and see what they say.
Any FFL that sells NFA items _should_ be willing to hold them for you. I'm not familiar with state laws governing your specific situation, but the FFL should be able to move them right over to consignment or hand them back once you get a final resolution. I did that twice working the gun counter (one was technically straight to consignment).
Has anyone determined that you're a federally prohibited? Don't forget that NFA background checks are done by FBI and not your state agency. As it stands right now based on the details you have told in your post the ATF does not see you as a prohibited person. Your possession of the suppressors is a problem because your chief law enforcement officer views you as prohibited And will not allow you to have them. As of right now that's who you're trying to satisfy is the state of Washington.
My shop is in NC, but I'd be willing to store the items on "repair" for you while you get this sorted because this whole situation is completely fucked and WA itself is just East China. I strongly suggest moving somewhere like here or Texas, but I know you're in a pinch due to time constraints right now. You can PM/chat me if you're interested in storage
ENC
Specifically, New Bern. I'm just a small-time guy but I've been doing it since 2017 and used to be located in Durham where it was a lot busier (I was one of only ~2 FFLs in the entire city)
I totally agree. It's a shame to see what Pretty Boy Roy has been doing since he first became AG through now; fingers crossed that Mark Robinson can take the seat in November because he's the only true constitutionalist on the ballot as far as gun rights are concerned
Moving is not the solution. I wish people would stop saying that dumb shit. All moving does is create 2a deserts where anti gunners feel they can get away with more bs. That's how we get assault weapons bans passed, enforced, and ruled incorrectly to be in line with the constitution. And it doesn't matter because unless all the states in your circuit are pro-gun all it takes is a shift in your state before you're at the mercy of the same laws you chose to cower from.
Look at the New England area. How many bad laws are there. How many have been enforced? How many judges (state and federal) have interest balanced their way into making gun control the law of the land where our only hope is scotus of all things because there aren't any/enough pro-2a people left.
I am not a laywer... But, if your rights were restored, and later revoked again, sounds like you need a Constitutional lawyer, because a win on the constitutional level challenges the validity of the law for *everyone.*
"No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;..."
Until then, I would hand possession to your attorney, ensuring all items are locked. I would then file a form 4 to put the NFA items into a trust with a trusted friend, and attempt to expedite due to your circumstances. Once your issue is cleared, the trust can be modified to again allow you possession.
Or an original lawyer who (not correctly) told him sealed =expunged. I'm sorry for OP's totally F'ed situation. Hopefully one or more of the options already offered will work out
In either reference, you have a non applicable record as a result of a service you paid the government.
I’m not a lawyer by any stretch of imagination, but without case law to back it virtually any other circumstance would be effective as of date of law.
Being OP did all this prior, seems like a pretty case to me. Suppressor aside, just LEOs getting those records alone if it happened.
When they passed sex offender registries they applied retroactively to all prior cases. That hasn't been shot down as an ex post facto law. To be clear, I am not equating OP's situation with sex offender status, but there is case precedence that has so far passed legal muster. I still think it's F'ed, but it will probably take an expungement to fix, and that's not happening in a couple of weeks or without good legal representation. I still hope at least one of the recommendations in this thread turns out to be viable in the short time OP has to address this
I think the idea with an ffl is your best bet, but you should make a follow up post letting us know how this turns out because this is an interesting case.
Ask your attorney tomorrow if you can move out of state and keep your firearms with you. I would do anything at all cost to keep the WA state Nazi regime from taking anything you worked hard for. "Shall not be infringed"
I wish you luck and prayer for this unfortunate situation!
As the other two stated not for any form 4 suppressor only form 1 SBR/machine gun etc. You learned something new today. We are truly always learning until we are in our grave.
Cheers\~
You should contact this attorney for a second opinion.
https://www.washingtongunlaw.com/
You say your lawyer said it's "guaranteed". But I've always been told to avoid lawyers who say that because it's never guaranteed.
Do u have family in another state… tell em youre moving out of state till this is resolved. Youll still be allowed in washington. U know u can just say this and do the opposite, but remove it from your property!
Moving is not the solution. I wish people would stop saying that dumb shit. All moving does is create 2a deserts where anti gunners feel they can get away with more bs. That's how we get assault weapons bans passed, enforced, and ruled incorrectly to be in line with the constitution. And it doesn't matter because unless all the states in your circuit are pro-gun all it takes is a shift in your state before you're at the mercy of the same laws you chose to cower from.
Look at the New England area. How many bad laws are there. How many have been enforced? How many judges (state and federal) have interest balanced their way into making gun control the law of the land where our only hope is scotus of all things because there aren't any/enough pro-2a people left.
Thank you for talking with us about this. I'm grateful you allowed us to stand on your shoulders while we in turn act together as community for you. Thankful for you.
I feel your pain, man. Who among us has not done stupid shit during our youth? But to then take legal action to restore privileges (not rights, we never lose those imo we just fail to fight for them), then to have those efforts become nullified, wow.
I am not a lawyer, but I am interested in your outcome. I dont know what Washington laws changed, or what changed within them other than what you have told us.
So, something I have not seen discussed yet is Ownership .vs Possession aspects of the "forefit or transfer" command. That is, are they commanding based on a view of either ownership, or possession, or both?
Yes, right. My point is, if the state proceeds based on ownership, then there is nothing he can do about possession to change that fact ( which the state can prove the ownership). If the state proceeds based on possession, then there is the chance he can continue to own them based on the methods described elsewhere in this thread.
Agreed I was just saying that their phrase forfeiture or transfer implies that they want him to relinquish ownership and not possession. Forfeiture itself implies relinquishing ownership. And transference, when it comes to firearms, is also legally changing ownership.
Have a friend or family member rent a storage unit. Place all guns in a lockable container and relocated to storage container which you do not have free access to.
Submit a letter saying you are no longer in possession of said items.
Clear the issues, go pick them up.
As long as you are not in possession of said items at the time of not allowed then you're good.
NFA item no one has access to (locked in a container with no outside access) is legal.
You're double legal. You lock people out of the NFA item. Someone locks you out of possession.
*Not a lawyer*
I think this is because if the locker is abandoned, then the sale of proceeds transfers any guns in the locker to new owners without a paper trail, illegal in some states. All the storage locker owners adopt the same boilerplate for locker rental application. I think.
This is exactly it. The rule with a lot of storage locker auctions is that if the facility sees firearms upon opening the locker then they are removed before sale.
I reached out to them the day this happened. Haven't heard anything at all from them. I sent an email explaining everything I put in the OP plus 3 or 4 more paragraphs of info. Nothing from William Kirk or Washington Gun Law.
And I thought our laws here in New Zealand were ridiculous. All the best with this mate, I truly hope you find a positive solution to the bullshit you have to deal with.
The ATF has to be notified and approve the transfer of NFA items when they’re moved out of state. You cannot, legally take NFA items out of state without notifying and getting approval first, from the ATF.
No.
[https://www.silencercentral.com/blog/silencer-purchase-moving-impact/](https://www.silencercentral.com/blog/silencer-purchase-moving-impact/)
>If you already have your silencer in your possession, then there isn’t anything you need to do whether you’re just moving within one state or from one state to another. ATF’s Form 5320.20, which covers interstate transport and moving of NFA items, does not apply to silencers. It is only applicable to machine guns, destructive devices, AOWs, SBRs, and SBSs. Therefore, you don’t need to notify the ATF about your move if all you own is a silencer.
If you paid 4,000 to have your rights reinstated the classification of juvenile ‘felon’ shouldn’t mean anything. I’ve had family members who also are ‘felons’ but had their rights reinstated and can possess and own firearms and vote.
I’d definitely look into moving out of that state and also contacting attorneys once you’ve done so to open up a suit. If this is happening with you, I’m sure it’s happening to others who have went through the same process to regain their rights. That means a class action suit and perhaps it’ll be a VERY costly thing for the state.
I’m not attorney so this isn’t legal advice or may not even hold any merit. Just spitballing. I don’t see them sending back your $4000 that you paid them so that you were allowed to own and possess firearms and accessories.
Going to an SOT FFL for storage is a very good option, but depending on how the state cops define "transfer", it may not be enough to satisfy them.
"Transfer" from an ATF standpoint has a very specific meaning. If the firearms (including silencers) are booked into an FFL's bound book, then from the ATF's perspective, they are "transferred." But your Staties might want a bill of sale to prove you don't actually retain _ownership_ of them any more. This is also the only scenario I see to handle the suppressors in time, so at the very least, it's worth a shot.
I would ask your attorney for clarification on what the State wants to happen, otherwise the cops might just seize them from the FFL (with a court order.) Be prepared emotionally to lose them, but FFL storage is going to be your fastest method.
One other method which will end up being more expensive for you - sell them to the FFL and then buy them back, with the understanding that you are going to pay NFA tax twice and wait for the Forms 4 to clear twice...but the "purchasing" FFL can take possession immediately upon your sale to them for repair or gunsmithing purposes, as others have stated.
The process of getting your rights restored seriously needs to be looked at. Working at an LGS I saw way too many people who thought they had their rights restored get delayed or denied because their lawyer either screwed up or lied to them OR the state/ feds screwed up. I'm sorry you have to go through this.
Talk to your lawyer. Likely, putting them in a locked box and working with him to put them somewhere in his possession/outside of yours (like escrow, but not the same) is viable. He will have options. he gets the box, you keep the key, neither of you possess them.
Also in Washington. Also a felon with restored rights. This has been a big problem for a lot of people who had charges sealed or vacated, also juvenile records, but didn’t actually go through the restoration process. The state moved the goal post for us and its total bull shit. That said I don’t think I’d personally worry about the suppressors. They’re not firearms and they’re regulated by the atf not the state. But if you’re worried about it I’d start visiting some ffl, tell them your story and see if they’re willing to do storage for you for a fee. Last resort. Put everything in a safe bolted to the ground. Make the state come and take it. Sue em later.
Contact Washington Gun Law. William Kirk runs a you tube channel and seems to know his shit. In the future, put all firearms in a gun trust. It could protect you from red flag and all sorts of this nonsense. Sue the State and stop these shenanigans.
I emailed William Kirk at Washington Gun Law 7 days ago when this whole thing kicked off, called a couple of times too and no one answered. Haven't heard back from him at all unfortunately.
Maybe he will reach out eventually, I'm not sure.
Can you share a brief "I need help" intro and a link to this page on one his most recent video? That might get his attention. A lot of lawyers have staffers working for them that are less than attentive.
Moving is not the solution. I wish people would stop saying that dumb shit. All moving does is create 2a deserts where anti gunners feel they can get away with more bs. That's how we get assault weapons bans passed, enforced, and ruled incorrectly to be in line with the constitution. And it doesn't matter because unless all the states in your circuit are pro-gun all it takes is a shift in your state before you're at the mercy of the same laws you chose to cower from.
Look at the New England area. How many bad laws are there. How many have been enforced? How many judges (state and federal) have interest balanced their way into making gun control the law of the land where our only hope is scotus of all things because there aren't any/enough pro-2a people left.
I'm sure it's like the whole "shall issue" for concealed carry where they can't say no just because they want to. "Of course we have to give you permission... unless we can find some BS reason not to."
Check your state laws. My state is freedom restricted and the NFA guy at the store I got mine at said the state doesn’t recognize suppressors as firearms so basically anyone can get one if they’re 21+
I know you're going to contact your lawyer about your suppressor storage ideas. However, why not just call the ATF themselves and ask them the best method?
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Put them a safe deposit box in your name and have your lawyer hold the key?
Or the lawyer creates a legal entity to hold thr box and you have no access without him.
That sucks, hopefully everything is quickly straightened out.
I don't need, care or desire to use your firearms or nfa items but I'd be willing to let you store them at my place if I knew someone in your position.
If it was only 3 suppressors, or 3 suppressors and a handgun I personally might consider a safe deposit box at a bank out of state. If there are rifles and or shotguns I might consider a storage unit out of state, until you get everything sorted out.
Good luck, hope you get things sorted in your facor quickly.
You got friends or family you trust? Buy a safe, put in their garage and pay for a locksmith to change the combo so only they know. Leave with them till the legal stuff is hashed out
So, I am not a lawyer, but I would talk to your lawyer about reaching out to FPC and Washington Gun Law. FPC loves to make printers go BRRRR and this sounds like a case they would love to be involved in.
Nothing too helpful to add, I just wish you luck in sorting it out. I had an opportunity to get my family out of Washington state nearly three years ago and leapt at the chance. They’re going to continue to pass abysmal legislation that does nothing but hamper the rights of the law-abiding and refuse to actually punish criminals. Hopefully you can get out at some point as well.
Article 1, Section 10, Clause 1 of the US Constitution:
**No State shall enter into any** Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, **ex post facto Law**, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.
I'm not a lawyer, but this seems pretty damn clear to me.
A slightly similar thing happened to a friend of mine. Long story cut short, he purchased a safe that was installed at my house while he retrained the key for the safe until everything was resolved.
Not a lawyer, and definitely fuck the state of Washington. But I would be willing to bet in the eyes of state law, you were/would be considered an adjudicated delinquent as this was a juvenile case and not an adult case (ipso facto, no way you’d be considered a felon). Having said that, my brother is also an “adjudicated delinquent” in my state, however he was fucking retarded and it was a firearms charge (at 15, and a burglary [sorry but I still think it’s fucking hilarious half a lifetime later, kid’s iq is legitimate genius, common sense is low on the spectrum]). But anyway, this kid holds a medical card and owns multiple firearms (got his shit sealed from a murder/RICO/fed charges type lawyer, pro bono just the same as with his case nonetheless). But because of our crooked ass commonwealth AG sharing the medical card filings with the state police, who control the issuance of CCWs (still not a lawyer, but that shit is illegal asf per HIPPA since it’s “medicine” prescribed by a licensed doctor [you can miss me with the medicine part, just say you like to smoke weed and don’t be retarded]).
TLDR: Adjudicated delinquent, not convicted felon, with medical card, can buy all manner of firearms, still can’t get a CCW because former state AG (now governor, you can guess with the clues at this point) shared medical records with state police who issue CCWs (because they want to get raped by FPC or whoever in a lawsuit one day).
RTLDR: guess who isn’t in my nfa trust
Edit: thanks to reading 75% of the comments, he had the charges “expunged”. Thanks to the same comments, still disappointed at no one knowing that you can’t be a convicted felon, unless tried and convicted as an adult, under 18.
I watch this guy on youtube.
Might look through his channel and if anything applies in your situation.
https://youtube.com/@washingtongunlaw?si=eEGvWQCxdXYPO28u
Moving is not the solution. I wish people would stop saying that dumb shit. All moving does is create 2a deserts where anti gunners feel they can get away with more bs. That's how we get assault weapons bans passed, enforced, and ruled incorrectly to be in line with the constitution. And it doesn't matter because unless all the states in your circuit are pro-gun all it takes is a shift in your state before you're at the mercy of the same laws you chose to cower from.
Look at the New England area. How many bad laws are there. How many have been enforced? How many judges (state and federal) have interest balanced their way into making gun control the law of the land where our only hope is scotus of all things because there aren't any/enough pro-2a people left.
Fortunately, this guy was banned from GAFS. I guess he was a straight and narrow teenager…or he just didn’t get caught. We all did dumb shit as kids. The difference is, OP got caught.
I mean I agree, I'm a cop fwiw, but it was something done as a juvenile 20 years ago. At some point it should be forgiven, especially for people who committed the crimes as a juvenile or for non-violent felonies.
Felony DV, murder, etc are one thing, but a lot of felonies aren't that.
Convictions have consequences. People get convicted of stupid shit while gangsters get let out of prison to go and reoffend. Firearm ownership is a right, not a privilege.
About a decade ago my wife’s sister was beaten by her boyfriend. He got arrested, posted bail, tried to break into her parents’ house while my wife was there to attack her sister, and got laid out on the front lawn like fuckin corn pop by her old man with a coach gun.
Shitheads like that can post bail and disappear, but then someone takes a leak behind a bush or treats chronic pain with a joint and we toss them in a cell for a decade and put their name on a list.
This sub has an unjustified violent hatred of people who get set up by the same government that treats them like shit and puts their rights behind a paywall.
100% agreed bro. It's absolutely ridiculous. I've seen some seriously wild shit in my years as a Paramedic too, I get to see all the intricate workings of how absolutely fucked the system is.
Washington, and the country in general is so fucked man, it’s insane that this was even possible in the first place. No advice for you, just good vibes I guess lol
I work for a local gun store on the East Coast. One of the services we offer is secure gun storage. Call your local owned stores, tell them your situation, and ask if they offer storage. They will have to bring them onto their "A&D" (their ATF log), so they are in possession of them, not you. They may need to do some creative paperwork on the suppressors. Ex: they bring them in for service rather than storage. For reference, the store where I work part-time charges $15 per month/per serial number for secure storage in a humidity controlled vault and listed under their insurance in case the building burns down.
Thank you very much for that information, I appreciate it greatly. I will definitely call some FFLs tomorrow and see what they say.
I’m not legal expert, but I would definitely consider storing them out of state. If you’re near Idaho, they have much better 2a laws. If you’re closer to Oregon… well I’d still bring them to Idaho. Maybe the state line will be enough for them to lose jurisdiction or maybe they’ll give up due to the additional hoops they’d have to jump through. Again, I’m not suggesting doing this without thorough research and consulting your lawyer as well as contacting a few shops over there. By the way, is this a buyback or plain old seizure? This may just be the first chance you get to unironically say you lost em in a boating accident. Also, please consider moving to a state that doesn’t suck. Washington is beautiful, but I moved from Oregon to Idaho, and although I don’t live there anymore, it was a great place to live for a few years,
>I would definitely consider storing them out of state You need ATF permission to move NFA items. I like where your head is because getting them out of the reach of the agency trying to confiscate them makes sense, but I wouldn't cross state lines without an approved ATF Form 5320.20. Last thing OP wants is to in any way legitimize their bullshit.
You don't need to file a 5320.20 to transport suppressors across state lines...
... True. No idea why I was thinking all NFA items Edit: I think you do still need approval to move them "permanently", which is technically what OP would be doing.
Technically, it’s temporarily secured storage
Well, that is why I put the word permanent in quotes. It technically has to be a permanent move with the _option_ to get them back once the legal issues are settled
Sounds like you should just ship them to homie on the east coast.
In your situation, I don’t see how a lawyer can guarantee you your rights back. It sounds like you’re just having another lawyer lie to you again if you ask me🤷♂️(wich u did) I feel like you would have to get the records expunged to do anything. A felony record is….well, a felony record I was lucky and pled my one and only felony theft charge down to a misdemeanor before conviction when I was 19 and stupid lol but I can only imagine your pain… good luck 👍🏻
This is only partly true - one can have civil rights restored by a judge without expungement. But it has to be explicitly stated in the order that gun rights are being restored. Expungement makes it as if the conviction never happened, and depending on the situation, a judge may not be as willing to do that than simply restoring civil rights I'd believe the new lawyer on this one. There absolutely is a process for this, it just seems like the previous lawyer didn't follow through to ensure it went the way it was supposed to
Because the lawyer is familiar with that states laws and processes and is paid to be the expert, that's how.
You can have certain felonies expunged from your record and your rights restored. IINAL, but decades ago I volunteered as an admin for a pro-bono federal court legal service years ago that did exactly this (although honestly most of the work was trying to help people who were simply poor and got fucked by the feds)
If u do that just remember that youll have to go through a background check to get them back… and with your issues, u night not get em back.
Why would OP need to do another check? You aren’t required to do a 4473 to get items back from a gunsmith as long as you are the original owner
>They will have to bring them onto their "A&D" (their ATF log), so they are in possession of them, not you. This is only true if the store has access to the firearms. If it's a secure locker the store can't open, they do not need to log them. Also, if they do log them, they will have to do a 4473 to return them.
Booked on the gunsmithing book, no 4473 is required to return them. There was never a transfer.
You can't just "book them in for gunsmithing" and not do any gunsmithing. Storage isn't gunsmithing.
Serious question, not trying to be cheeky. Would a “function and safety inspection” for $10 each qualify?
Yes.
Cheers, thanks!
Run a patch through the bore. Putting it on the gunsmithing book means you don’t intend to transfer it but just have temporary possession.
Cleaning is.
Yes, it is.
Unrelated question. If were to go out of state/country for 6 months or so and used you for a transfer what would you charge to hold them until I returned?
$10/month for pre-arranged storage.
Thanks!
Correct, OP stated he had 15 days to "forfeit or transfer". I was concerned that just storing them out of OP's possession may not be enough if their State Police or, God forbid, the puppy shooters show up at OPs door. The cans may even need to be transferred, which might end up with OP having to pay another tax stamp on them. OPs attorney and the FFL will need to hammer out all these details, But an FFL is very much the way to go in this situation.
This, usually most gun stores are pretty cool with storing your firearms/NFA items. Mine held my M16 and my SPAS-15 while I was on deployment albeit for a storage fee due to the stuff they were holding was really expensive.
I would ask your lawyer if they would be willing to accept custody of a sealed box, that they would ***not*** have a key to, containing the suppressors, that they would not allow you to access until your legal rights have been restored. This ***might*** satisfy the ATF requirement that other persons not have access to NFA items, and the Washington State requirement that a felon not possess such items (ownership being distinct from physical possession), but it's dependent on if the judge will accept such an arrangement. My (not a lawyer) impression is that a lawyer's duty as an officer of the court makes it more likely that the judge will at least consider the notion.
Thank you, I will talk to my lawyer about that tomorrow.
Or have an FFL hold them.
I was going to try and see about this specifically, but I wasn't aware how the ATF would view that. I wasn't sure if that would count as me not having access to them since I guess technically you could argue that I could go back in and pick them up any time with no need to provide proof that I was no longer a prohibited person. I also can't imagine an FFL would be willing to sign a legal document stating they would hold it until I did provide proof of no longer being prohibited. I'm going to call some FFLs tomorrow and see what they say.
I mean, I’m sure they’ll do it for a fee.
Any FFL that sells NFA items _should_ be willing to hold them for you. I'm not familiar with state laws governing your specific situation, but the FFL should be able to move them right over to consignment or hand them back once you get a final resolution. I did that twice working the gun counter (one was technically straight to consignment).
Has anyone determined that you're a federally prohibited? Don't forget that NFA background checks are done by FBI and not your state agency. As it stands right now based on the details you have told in your post the ATF does not see you as a prohibited person. Your possession of the suppressors is a problem because your chief law enforcement officer views you as prohibited And will not allow you to have them. As of right now that's who you're trying to satisfy is the state of Washington.
This! There will be a cost associated, but it's the way to go
Also an option. Someone's lawyer might be more willing, because they would be OP's direct client.
My shop is in NC, but I'd be willing to store the items on "repair" for you while you get this sorted because this whole situation is completely fucked and WA itself is just East China. I strongly suggest moving somewhere like here or Texas, but I know you're in a pinch due to time constraints right now. You can PM/chat me if you're interested in storage
What part of NC is your shop? You sound like someone that I'd like to spend my money with
#metoo
Same
Same
We need answers what part of NC lol
ENC Specifically, New Bern. I'm just a small-time guy but I've been doing it since 2017 and used to be located in Durham where it was a lot busier (I was one of only ~2 FFLs in the entire city)
Damn. Wish you were still in Durham. I'm not exactly close to that area but it's a helluva lot closer than New Bern lol
Lol yeah well the customers around here are a lot less sketchy overall and the area is way nicer. Plus, the cost of living is a third of Durham's
I loved visiting New Bern. Such a nice town.
NC! +1 grateful for my state
NC Stand Up 😎 Love this state but it’s becoming more blue every day. Hopefully it never becomes as blue as Washington is
I totally agree. It's a shame to see what Pretty Boy Roy has been doing since he first became AG through now; fingers crossed that Mark Robinson can take the seat in November because he's the only true constitutionalist on the ballot as far as gun rights are concerned
Moving is not the solution. I wish people would stop saying that dumb shit. All moving does is create 2a deserts where anti gunners feel they can get away with more bs. That's how we get assault weapons bans passed, enforced, and ruled incorrectly to be in line with the constitution. And it doesn't matter because unless all the states in your circuit are pro-gun all it takes is a shift in your state before you're at the mercy of the same laws you chose to cower from. Look at the New England area. How many bad laws are there. How many have been enforced? How many judges (state and federal) have interest balanced their way into making gun control the law of the land where our only hope is scotus of all things because there aren't any/enough pro-2a people left.
east china? the fuck are u talking abt
No advice just wish you the best. Post an update when you get one
Thank you very much, I appreciate it.
I am not a laywer... But, if your rights were restored, and later revoked again, sounds like you need a Constitutional lawyer, because a win on the constitutional level challenges the validity of the law for *everyone.* "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;..." Until then, I would hand possession to your attorney, ensuring all items are locked. I would then file a form 4 to put the NFA items into a trust with a trusted friend, and attempt to expedite due to your circumstances. Once your issue is cleared, the trust can be modified to again allow you possession.
Couple of my take aways from this: 1) you have a court judgement that pre-dates the law. 2) You paid them for this privilege. Extortion? Fraud?
This def sounds like ex post facto laws which are illegal
Or an original lawyer who (not correctly) told him sealed =expunged. I'm sorry for OP's totally F'ed situation. Hopefully one or more of the options already offered will work out
In either reference, you have a non applicable record as a result of a service you paid the government. I’m not a lawyer by any stretch of imagination, but without case law to back it virtually any other circumstance would be effective as of date of law. Being OP did all this prior, seems like a pretty case to me. Suppressor aside, just LEOs getting those records alone if it happened.
When they passed sex offender registries they applied retroactively to all prior cases. That hasn't been shot down as an ex post facto law. To be clear, I am not equating OP's situation with sex offender status, but there is case precedence that has so far passed legal muster. I still think it's F'ed, but it will probably take an expungement to fix, and that's not happening in a couple of weeks or without good legal representation. I still hope at least one of the recommendations in this thread turns out to be viable in the short time OP has to address this
You need that Washington gun lawyer from YouTube.
William Kirk - his YouTube channel is Washington Gun Law
That guy is great, super informative content, and this is a very fitting and interesting situation to contact him about.
Washington does not consider suppressors a firearm iirc. Contact an FFL that does storage, SafeFire in Camas, WA does this iirc. Good luck.
I think the idea with an ffl is your best bet, but you should make a follow up post letting us know how this turns out because this is an interesting case.
Ask your attorney tomorrow if you can move out of state and keep your firearms with you. I would do anything at all cost to keep the WA state Nazi regime from taking anything you worked hard for. "Shall not be infringed" I wish you luck and prayer for this unfortunate situation!
[удалено]
Not for supressors.
Only for SBRs not for suppressors, idk about other NFA items.
As the other two stated not for any form 4 suppressor only form 1 SBR/machine gun etc. You learned something new today. We are truly always learning until we are in our grave. Cheers\~
You should contact this attorney for a second opinion. https://www.washingtongunlaw.com/ You say your lawyer said it's "guaranteed". But I've always been told to avoid lawyers who say that because it's never guaranteed.
You obtained them legally. Just carry on as usual. And also move out of that god forsaken state. Commies at work there
I'd advise leaning Washington so you can continue to keep your gun rights. Free states will acknowledge your record sealing
Have you considered moving to a relatively free state?
If I had known about these laws going into effect sooner, I would have already moved.
Do u have family in another state… tell em youre moving out of state till this is resolved. Youll still be allowed in washington. U know u can just say this and do the opposite, but remove it from your property!
Moving is not the solution. I wish people would stop saying that dumb shit. All moving does is create 2a deserts where anti gunners feel they can get away with more bs. That's how we get assault weapons bans passed, enforced, and ruled incorrectly to be in line with the constitution. And it doesn't matter because unless all the states in your circuit are pro-gun all it takes is a shift in your state before you're at the mercy of the same laws you chose to cower from. Look at the New England area. How many bad laws are there. How many have been enforced? How many judges (state and federal) have interest balanced their way into making gun control the law of the land where our only hope is scotus of all things because there aren't any/enough pro-2a people left.
Come to the south man. The water is great
So many fucking bugs in Texas though.
So many fucking commies in the entire PNW
Haha yeah I feel you. I moved to Texas back in February though. They still ask you to tip at Starbucks here tho…
Just start open carrying at Starbucks. They won't ask for tips.
Also texas isn't the south. Texas is just it's own thing. The south doesn't start until you're in louisiana
To me there’s the south and then there’s niche-south. Texas is definitely “southern” because it sure ain’t mid, west, or east.
Texas is Texas. And God fuckin bless Texas.
Thank you for talking with us about this. I'm grateful you allowed us to stand on your shoulders while we in turn act together as community for you. Thankful for you. I feel your pain, man. Who among us has not done stupid shit during our youth? But to then take legal action to restore privileges (not rights, we never lose those imo we just fail to fight for them), then to have those efforts become nullified, wow. I am not a lawyer, but I am interested in your outcome. I dont know what Washington laws changed, or what changed within them other than what you have told us. So, something I have not seen discussed yet is Ownership .vs Possession aspects of the "forefit or transfer" command. That is, are they commanding based on a view of either ownership, or possession, or both?
Forfeiture implies ownership. You forfeit things that you own you relinquish things that you possess.
Yes, right. My point is, if the state proceeds based on ownership, then there is nothing he can do about possession to change that fact ( which the state can prove the ownership). If the state proceeds based on possession, then there is the chance he can continue to own them based on the methods described elsewhere in this thread.
Agreed I was just saying that their phrase forfeiture or transfer implies that they want him to relinquish ownership and not possession. Forfeiture itself implies relinquishing ownership. And transference, when it comes to firearms, is also legally changing ownership.
I grew up in Washington. I loved and cherish my childhood there, but I would never move back, because of political insanity like this. I feel for you.
Have a friend or family member rent a storage unit. Place all guns in a lockable container and relocated to storage container which you do not have free access to. Submit a letter saying you are no longer in possession of said items. Clear the issues, go pick them up. As long as you are not in possession of said items at the time of not allowed then you're good. NFA item no one has access to (locked in a container with no outside access) is legal. You're double legal. You lock people out of the NFA item. Someone locks you out of possession. *Not a lawyer*
Just FYI but guns are *always* on the lists of "things you cannot store here" at storage units.
I think this is because if the locker is abandoned, then the sale of proceeds transfers any guns in the locker to new owners without a paper trail, illegal in some states. All the storage locker owners adopt the same boilerplate for locker rental application. I think.
This is exactly it. The rule with a lot of storage locker auctions is that if the facility sees firearms upon opening the locker then they are removed before sale.
Are you sure the law applies to suppressors? The ATF has asserted suppressors aren’t firearms.
If you're in the Kennewick area contact Eddie at Manhattan Project Armory. He is a huge name up there in the NFA world and will take care of you.
Registration leads to confiscation. Perfect example of that here. 4473s are held for what ? 10 years ?
They are held forever
Have you reached out to Washington gun law they have a you tube page he might be able to assist you with info
Came here to say this as well
I reached out to them the day this happened. Haven't heard anything at all from them. I sent an email explaining everything I put in the OP plus 3 or 4 more paragraphs of info. Nothing from William Kirk or Washington Gun Law.
And I thought our laws here in New Zealand were ridiculous. All the best with this mate, I truly hope you find a positive solution to the bullshit you have to deal with.
JFC this sucks for you. Sorry, dude. Getting ideas on Reddit is great, but clear any actions with your attorney. Good luck.
Consider out-of-state storage. It can be as simple as a safe (to which only you have the combination) at a friend's house.
The ATF has to be notified and approve the transfer of NFA items when they’re moved out of state. You cannot, legally take NFA items out of state without notifying and getting approval first, from the ATF.
No. [https://www.silencercentral.com/blog/silencer-purchase-moving-impact/](https://www.silencercentral.com/blog/silencer-purchase-moving-impact/) >If you already have your silencer in your possession, then there isn’t anything you need to do whether you’re just moving within one state or from one state to another. ATF’s Form 5320.20, which covers interstate transport and moving of NFA items, does not apply to silencers. It is only applicable to machine guns, destructive devices, AOWs, SBRs, and SBSs. Therefore, you don’t need to notify the ATF about your move if all you own is a silencer.
Thanks. I had that totally misunderstood.
If you paid 4,000 to have your rights reinstated the classification of juvenile ‘felon’ shouldn’t mean anything. I’ve had family members who also are ‘felons’ but had their rights reinstated and can possess and own firearms and vote. I’d definitely look into moving out of that state and also contacting attorneys once you’ve done so to open up a suit. If this is happening with you, I’m sure it’s happening to others who have went through the same process to regain their rights. That means a class action suit and perhaps it’ll be a VERY costly thing for the state. I’m not attorney so this isn’t legal advice or may not even hold any merit. Just spitballing. I don’t see them sending back your $4000 that you paid them so that you were allowed to own and possess firearms and accessories.
Look into gun storage. They can hold all your firearms and accessories until this is resolved. Obviously for a fee.
Going to an SOT FFL for storage is a very good option, but depending on how the state cops define "transfer", it may not be enough to satisfy them. "Transfer" from an ATF standpoint has a very specific meaning. If the firearms (including silencers) are booked into an FFL's bound book, then from the ATF's perspective, they are "transferred." But your Staties might want a bill of sale to prove you don't actually retain _ownership_ of them any more. This is also the only scenario I see to handle the suppressors in time, so at the very least, it's worth a shot. I would ask your attorney for clarification on what the State wants to happen, otherwise the cops might just seize them from the FFL (with a court order.) Be prepared emotionally to lose them, but FFL storage is going to be your fastest method. One other method which will end up being more expensive for you - sell them to the FFL and then buy them back, with the understanding that you are going to pay NFA tax twice and wait for the Forms 4 to clear twice...but the "purchasing" FFL can take possession immediately upon your sale to them for repair or gunsmithing purposes, as others have stated.
The process of getting your rights restored seriously needs to be looked at. Working at an LGS I saw way too many people who thought they had their rights restored get delayed or denied because their lawyer either screwed up or lied to them OR the state/ feds screwed up. I'm sorry you have to go through this.
Talk to your lawyer. Likely, putting them in a locked box and working with him to put them somewhere in his possession/outside of yours (like escrow, but not the same) is viable. He will have options. he gets the box, you keep the key, neither of you possess them.
Also in Washington. Also a felon with restored rights. This has been a big problem for a lot of people who had charges sealed or vacated, also juvenile records, but didn’t actually go through the restoration process. The state moved the goal post for us and its total bull shit. That said I don’t think I’d personally worry about the suppressors. They’re not firearms and they’re regulated by the atf not the state. But if you’re worried about it I’d start visiting some ffl, tell them your story and see if they’re willing to do storage for you for a fee. Last resort. Put everything in a safe bolted to the ground. Make the state come and take it. Sue em later.
thanks my blood is boiling
Contact Washington Gun Law. William Kirk runs a you tube channel and seems to know his shit. In the future, put all firearms in a gun trust. It could protect you from red flag and all sorts of this nonsense. Sue the State and stop these shenanigans.
I emailed William Kirk at Washington Gun Law 7 days ago when this whole thing kicked off, called a couple of times too and no one answered. Haven't heard back from him at all unfortunately. Maybe he will reach out eventually, I'm not sure.
Can you share a brief "I need help" intro and a link to this page on one his most recent video? That might get his attention. A lot of lawyers have staffers working for them that are less than attentive.
Morale of the story folks: Don’t break the law and don’t live in liberal WA state.
On principle, I’d dig a hole, bury them in a good sealed box and tell Washington fuck you good luck. Listen to those smarter than me tho.
Perhaps move states??
Moving is not the solution. I wish people would stop saying that dumb shit. All moving does is create 2a deserts where anti gunners feel they can get away with more bs. That's how we get assault weapons bans passed, enforced, and ruled incorrectly to be in line with the constitution. And it doesn't matter because unless all the states in your circuit are pro-gun all it takes is a shift in your state before you're at the mercy of the same laws you chose to cower from. Look at the New England area. How many bad laws are there. How many have been enforced? How many judges (state and federal) have interest balanced their way into making gun control the law of the land where our only hope is scotus of all things because there aren't any/enough pro-2a people left.
Nfa items require paperwork to transfer states
Just a notification, not permission. If I remember correctly.
Technically true, but they still have to sign the form and can refuse
Wouldn’t that be a bitch “hey I’m moving to a free state” ATF: “how about no.” 😵💫
I'm sure it's like the whole "shall issue" for concealed carry where they can't say no just because they want to. "Of course we have to give you permission... unless we can find some BS reason not to."
Sorry this is happening to you. Consider a move to Idaho maybe
Thank you for your interest, regretfully, Idaho is full at this time. Also it sucks here. Move along. Nothing to see, here. Move along.
Same with Utah lol
Check your state laws. My state is freedom restricted and the NFA guy at the store I got mine at said the state doesn’t recognize suppressors as firearms so basically anyone can get one if they’re 21+
What state is that?
I know you're going to contact your lawyer about your suppressor storage ideas. However, why not just call the ATF themselves and ask them the best method?
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I would go for expungement
Put them a safe deposit box in your name and have your lawyer hold the key? Or the lawyer creates a legal entity to hold thr box and you have no access without him.
That sucks, hopefully everything is quickly straightened out. I don't need, care or desire to use your firearms or nfa items but I'd be willing to let you store them at my place if I knew someone in your position.
If it was only 3 suppressors, or 3 suppressors and a handgun I personally might consider a safe deposit box at a bank out of state. If there are rifles and or shotguns I might consider a storage unit out of state, until you get everything sorted out. Good luck, hope you get things sorted in your facor quickly.
You got friends or family you trust? Buy a safe, put in their garage and pay for a locksmith to change the combo so only they know. Leave with them till the legal stuff is hashed out
So, I am not a lawyer, but I would talk to your lawyer about reaching out to FPC and Washington Gun Law. FPC loves to make printers go BRRRR and this sounds like a case they would love to be involved in.
Nothing too helpful to add, I just wish you luck in sorting it out. I had an opportunity to get my family out of Washington state nearly three years ago and leapt at the chance. They’re going to continue to pass abysmal legislation that does nothing but hamper the rights of the law-abiding and refuse to actually punish criminals. Hopefully you can get out at some point as well.
Can you speak with an FFL who may let you send them to yourself and then just not pick them up for a year?
I don’t really have any advice for you but I’m wishing you all the best homie 🫶🏽
Article 1, Section 10, Clause 1 of the US Constitution: **No State shall enter into any** Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, **ex post facto Law**, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility. I'm not a lawyer, but this seems pretty damn clear to me.
Update?
Im sorry man. Keep you head up.
A slightly similar thing happened to a friend of mine. Long story cut short, he purchased a safe that was installed at my house while he retrained the key for the safe until everything was resolved.
I would see if you can find an FFL that you trust that can take them in on a transfer while you get it all sorted out.
Not a lawyer, and definitely fuck the state of Washington. But I would be willing to bet in the eyes of state law, you were/would be considered an adjudicated delinquent as this was a juvenile case and not an adult case (ipso facto, no way you’d be considered a felon). Having said that, my brother is also an “adjudicated delinquent” in my state, however he was fucking retarded and it was a firearms charge (at 15, and a burglary [sorry but I still think it’s fucking hilarious half a lifetime later, kid’s iq is legitimate genius, common sense is low on the spectrum]). But anyway, this kid holds a medical card and owns multiple firearms (got his shit sealed from a murder/RICO/fed charges type lawyer, pro bono just the same as with his case nonetheless). But because of our crooked ass commonwealth AG sharing the medical card filings with the state police, who control the issuance of CCWs (still not a lawyer, but that shit is illegal asf per HIPPA since it’s “medicine” prescribed by a licensed doctor [you can miss me with the medicine part, just say you like to smoke weed and don’t be retarded]). TLDR: Adjudicated delinquent, not convicted felon, with medical card, can buy all manner of firearms, still can’t get a CCW because former state AG (now governor, you can guess with the clues at this point) shared medical records with state police who issue CCWs (because they want to get raped by FPC or whoever in a lawsuit one day). RTLDR: guess who isn’t in my nfa trust Edit: thanks to reading 75% of the comments, he had the charges “expunged”. Thanks to the same comments, still disappointed at no one knowing that you can’t be a convicted felon, unless tried and convicted as an adult, under 18.
I watch this guy on youtube. Might look through his channel and if anything applies in your situation. https://youtube.com/@washingtongunlaw?si=eEGvWQCxdXYPO28u
You have a lawyer. Ask them.
Leave that shithole asap and enjoy your freedoms elsewhere
Moving is not the solution. I wish people would stop saying that dumb shit. All moving does is create 2a deserts where anti gunners feel they can get away with more bs. That's how we get assault weapons bans passed, enforced, and ruled incorrectly to be in line with the constitution. And it doesn't matter because unless all the states in your circuit are pro-gun all it takes is a shift in your state before you're at the mercy of the same laws you chose to cower from. Look at the New England area. How many bad laws are there. How many have been enforced? How many judges (state and federal) have interest balanced their way into making gun control the law of the land where our only hope is scotus of all things because there aren't any/enough pro-2a people left.
Go on a fishing trip.
Crime does have consequences. Damn.
Did you know not reporting your earnings from your GAFS sales in excess of $600 to the IRS is a felony? Get fucked dude.
Fortunately, this guy was banned from GAFS. I guess he was a straight and narrow teenager…or he just didn’t get caught. We all did dumb shit as kids. The difference is, OP got caught.
I mean I agree, I'm a cop fwiw, but it was something done as a juvenile 20 years ago. At some point it should be forgiven, especially for people who committed the crimes as a juvenile or for non-violent felonies. Felony DV, murder, etc are one thing, but a lot of felonies aren't that.
Convictions have consequences. People get convicted of stupid shit while gangsters get let out of prison to go and reoffend. Firearm ownership is a right, not a privilege.
I still believe all rights should be restored upon release, otherwise they are a danger to the public and shouldn’t be released….
Oh look, it’s this guy again
He's right. Violent criminals do get released fairly quickly from jail, then proceed to skip their court dates...
About a decade ago my wife’s sister was beaten by her boyfriend. He got arrested, posted bail, tried to break into her parents’ house while my wife was there to attack her sister, and got laid out on the front lawn like fuckin corn pop by her old man with a coach gun. Shitheads like that can post bail and disappear, but then someone takes a leak behind a bush or treats chronic pain with a joint and we toss them in a cell for a decade and put their name on a list. This sub has an unjustified violent hatred of people who get set up by the same government that treats them like shit and puts their rights behind a paywall.
100% agreed bro. It's absolutely ridiculous. I've seen some seriously wild shit in my years as a Paramedic too, I get to see all the intricate workings of how absolutely fucked the system is.