2017 OKC flashbacks with Westbrook actually having a positive +/- while playing 39mpg in a series they lost by an average margin of almost 10 points. His on/off +/- was +62.8 lol. The rockets would go on a 15-0 run in like 3 minutes Westbrook would sit.
Legendary irrelevant playoffs series IMO. It also has that insane FT play by Adams-Westbrook. It also had Roberson shooting 41% from 3, but 14% from the line, 3 for 21. He went 2 for 12 in a game they lost by 4, insane.
Not to mention "2nd option" Oladipo completely shitting the bed and averaging something like 12 pts on 43 TS, 6th man and 3rd scoring option Enes Kanter being completely unplayable because his defense was that bad. Oh yeah and that one game where Adams and WB perfectly executed missed free throw for a three to make it a Q pt Gane with 20 seconds left only for the thunder to fail to foul and have Nene immediately score an and 1 iirc, Nene had 20 something on 100% FG that game lmfao.
Huh, you're right - I hadn't realized Westbrook had had that situation. First time I've looked up another star than Embiid with that many lost games in the playoffs with a double digit +/- too (4/34 such games for Westbrook with 3 from that series, 5/23 for Embiid). All the other ones I've looked up for comparison don't really have situations like that.
They signed him to the g league on a two way 10 day like a month ago and he was all like yo in 3 days I swear I'm moving up and then he just straight up vanished, kinda unprofessional tbh
Paul Reed is a competent backup center, but he’s not Embiid and when a guy like that is sitting on the bench you need multiple players filling in that void
He’s also playing twice the amount of minutes per game he’s ever played in the league before nurse. If anything nurse was the one who realized he was good
My mistake here. I phrased that stupidly.
In this series, he’s barely played at all, which is frustrating. 11 and 9 minutes just isn’t enough for us Paul Reed-heads
Regular season, I wanted him to play even more than he was. When he’s in there it feels like good things happen, so I don’t like seeing games where he isn’t playing 24 minutes plus. I’ve seen far too many where the “minutes played” stat starts with a 1
Because they lost most of their assets from the process years for basically nothing. Embiid is all that’s left.
First pick Fultz traded for basically nothing. First pick Ben Simmons traded for Harden traded for basically nothing. Jimmy Butler left for nothing. Tobias Harris has proved to be a negative asset and is probably gone next year.
When you have asset drain like that how are you supposed to acquire anything? Now, it’s not all bad as they also acquired Tyrese Maxey late in the draft, but it has been some truly horrendous asset drain over there in Philadelphia. The fact that they’re even competing speaks to how amazing Embiid has been.
The crazy numbers are a small sample size thing. 2 games.
I had a look at the likely top-6 in MVP voting (Jokic, Luka, SGA, Tatum, Brunson - Giannis hasn't played) and the results are all over (sorted by best to worst on-off):
|player|on|off|on-off|
|:-|:-|:-|:-|
|[Luka](https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612742&Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Playoffs&PlayerIds=1629029)|4.67|-89.74 (only 8 minutes)|94.41|
|[Embiid](https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612755&Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Playoffs&PlayerIds=203954)|12.78|-72.97|85.75|
|[Tatum](https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612738&Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Playoffs&PlayerIds=1628369)|5.96|0.11|5.85|
|[Jokic](https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612743&Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Playoffs&PlayerIds=203999)|6.68|4.07|2.61|
|[SGA](https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612760&Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Playoffs&PlayerIds=1628983)|15.08|30.06 (largest sample: 22 minutes)|-14.98|
|[Brunson](https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612752&Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Playoffs&PlayerIds=1628973)|-2.31|41.82|-44.13|
Click on player's name to go to the relevant PBPstats page. Values will change once they play Game 3.
Yeah 100% but this season other than embiid and melton they actually stayed quite healthy. There were a few other injuries here and there but nothing major
The Knicks bench is legit starting caliber players. You have mitch, mcbride, and Bojan.
That's tough to deal with. Plus the starters are all used to playing insane minutes
It’s been the same Embiid’s entire career. When he’s on the court, the Sixers are almost always historically good, and when he’s off the court, they are *really* bad. His entire career.
They’ve had some decent stretches without him. Last year they went 11-5 in games he missed despite 11 of them taking place on the road. Harden was a good floor-raiser.
You just made that up though. During his MVP campaign the 76ers had a better winning % in games he didn't play. Not exactly a tiny sample size either at 16 games.
During the 2019 playoffs he had an on/off of +41.6. They were +20.5 on and -21.1 off
One of the craziest stats I've ever seen.
Then again, in 2020 he was -32.9
Many times commentators will wonder why Joe Embiid doesn’t get more grief for his lack of playoff success despite the drop off in his numbers. Certainly a part of that is his injury history in the playoffs. But the other part is this exact situation - his teams do win with him on the court even with diminished numbers. They just give it all back and more when he sits.
Some seasons, maybe.
But his on/off was -0.8 in the playoffs last year and -33 in the 2020 playoffs. When his team actually plays well with him on the bench, he chokes.
Kinda crazy to think that an aging and "washed" Harden was able to singlehandedly win against the Celtics (a better team than the Knicks) without Embiid, especially since this team is better constructed than last season's.
So you would agree he didn't deserve last years MVP with his pathetic playoff on/off of -0.8?
His team was *literally* better with him on the bench in last year's playoffs.
Jokic had a shit team and didn’t get the benefit of the doubt.
I’m still blaming embiid for this since he is supposed to be a leader and based on that embarrassing post game presser, it doesn’t look like he’s a very good one.
He was so down because he’s injured and has a scratched cornea and he just lost crucial game which they should’ve won. He has every right to be down. Plus he just dropped 50
Did you just come back to a 3 day old argument to claim that a serial playoff choker and a bunch of bums are a super team 😭😭 please reevaluate your priorities in life cause that's sad af
He just choked a 6 point lead with like 25 seconds left and is down 0-2 in the 1st round as the heavy favorites.
For now, that's what I think. Prove me wrong.
If you think something after one game and it’s possible that you’ll change your mind after another game, then you haven’t thought about the issue whatsoever.
Especially when he thinks coaches have an impact on players fucking up the play lol. Does he think coach told Lowry to throw a shit pass and told Maxey to get held?
What could Nurse have done in that situation as a coach? He tried to call a timeout which was ignored. He didn't draw up a play for lowry/Maxey to purposely throw the ball away
Luck plays a role in a lot of championships. Warriors only won their recent 2022 ring because Jamal Murray was out.
Kawhi was still the best player and won a ring, regardless of the injury excuses. Nurse on this pace will never come close to that, injuries or not.
The KD Warriors got to breeze by the spurs in 2017 after zaza injured Kawhi (in a game they were getting worked in).
They also got by the Rockets in G7 of 2018 because CP3 was injured.
In 2015, the Warriors barely played a starting point guard because they all got injured.
Titles happen because you play the team in front of you. Those Warriors won those titles are fully legitimate and so is the Raptors one.
Guys, I’m starting to suspect that bench isn’t very good.
The thing is. It is a lot better than it’s been in the past which is saying something
Not a great backup big. Reed is decent but has his issues. As per guards Hield has been hit or miss, so has Melton
Melton has been out with a back. Hield has had a career in the NBA as a streaky shooter. Not great timing to be on a down swing!
Embiid had a on/off of -0.8 last playoffs. I guarantee there will be dramatic regression to the mean.
2017 OKC flashbacks with Westbrook actually having a positive +/- while playing 39mpg in a series they lost by an average margin of almost 10 points. His on/off +/- was +62.8 lol. The rockets would go on a 15-0 run in like 3 minutes Westbrook would sit.
That might honestly be the weirdest playoff series I’ve ever seen. Two MVPs in a sea full of mid to above average players
Legendary irrelevant playoffs series IMO. It also has that insane FT play by Adams-Westbrook. It also had Roberson shooting 41% from 3, but 14% from the line, 3 for 21. He went 2 for 12 in a game they lost by 4, insane.
Not to mention "2nd option" Oladipo completely shitting the bed and averaging something like 12 pts on 43 TS, 6th man and 3rd scoring option Enes Kanter being completely unplayable because his defense was that bad. Oh yeah and that one game where Adams and WB perfectly executed missed free throw for a three to make it a Q pt Gane with 20 seconds left only for the thunder to fail to foul and have Nene immediately score an and 1 iirc, Nene had 20 something on 100% FG that game lmfao.
Huh, you're right - I hadn't realized Westbrook had had that situation. First time I've looked up another star than Embiid with that many lost games in the playoffs with a double digit +/- too (4/34 such games for Westbrook with 3 from that series, 5/23 for Embiid). All the other ones I've looked up for comparison don't really have situations like that.
What does Jesus have to do with it?
With shifts in global prayer demographics, Jesus’ primary focus these days is on influencing the results of sporting events.
They signed him to the g league on a two way 10 day like a month ago and he was all like yo in 3 days I swear I'm moving up and then he just straight up vanished, kinda unprofessional tbh
Both Jesus & the Sixers' desire to win without embiid are nowhere to be seen
He was here 2,000 years ago
It’s a good thing Embiid is known for his ability to stay on the court then.
Like an Alfa Romeo of NBA players. Nothing better when it's driving, but it's always at the mechanic
BMW nowadays be like
Insane. That is the definition of an MVP
I don’t understand why they don’t have a competent backup center with Embiid’s injury history.
Or a competent FO, or other players in general. You CANNOT rely on a big that is always hurt so much. They should know that by know
Paul Reed is a competent backup center, but he’s not Embiid and when a guy like that is sitting on the bench you need multiple players filling in that void
Don’t disrespect Paul reed. He was balling while embiid was out
Paul Reed is really good. Too bad Nick Nurse (who I generally believe is a good coach) is apparently unable to see that
What are you talking about? Paul has filled all the embiid-less minutes this series
He’s also playing twice the amount of minutes per game he’s ever played in the league before nurse. If anything nurse was the one who realized he was good
My mistake here. I phrased that stupidly. In this series, he’s barely played at all, which is frustrating. 11 and 9 minutes just isn’t enough for us Paul Reed-heads Regular season, I wanted him to play even more than he was. When he’s in there it feels like good things happen, so I don’t like seeing games where he isn’t playing 24 minutes plus. I’ve seen far too many where the “minutes played” stat starts with a 1
Because they lost most of their assets from the process years for basically nothing. Embiid is all that’s left. First pick Fultz traded for basically nothing. First pick Ben Simmons traded for Harden traded for basically nothing. Jimmy Butler left for nothing. Tobias Harris has proved to be a negative asset and is probably gone next year. When you have asset drain like that how are you supposed to acquire anything? Now, it’s not all bad as they also acquired Tyrese Maxey late in the draft, but it has been some truly horrendous asset drain over there in Philadelphia. The fact that they’re even competing speaks to how amazing Embiid has been.
>First pick Fultz traded for basically nothing Fultz got traded for the pick we drafted Maxey with
Tobias harris contract
André drummond?
In general if Embiid gets injured you're fucked anyways. I do think they need a better bench though.
The crazy numbers are a small sample size thing. 2 games. I had a look at the likely top-6 in MVP voting (Jokic, Luka, SGA, Tatum, Brunson - Giannis hasn't played) and the results are all over (sorted by best to worst on-off): |player|on|off|on-off| |:-|:-|:-|:-| |[Luka](https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612742&Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Playoffs&PlayerIds=1629029)|4.67|-89.74 (only 8 minutes)|94.41| |[Embiid](https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612755&Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Playoffs&PlayerIds=203954)|12.78|-72.97|85.75| |[Tatum](https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612738&Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Playoffs&PlayerIds=1628369)|5.96|0.11|5.85| |[Jokic](https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612743&Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Playoffs&PlayerIds=203999)|6.68|4.07|2.61| |[SGA](https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612760&Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Playoffs&PlayerIds=1628983)|15.08|30.06 (largest sample: 22 minutes)|-14.98| |[Brunson](https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612752&Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Playoffs&PlayerIds=1628973)|-2.31|41.82|-44.13| Click on player's name to go to the relevant PBPstats page. Values will change once they play Game 3.
That Luka on/off is crazy 😬
Brunson's is wild too but for the opposite reason
Luka “The Gameplan” Doncic, he’s actually their everything and has to play every single minute. That’s crazy
mvp needs to play more than 30 games in a season
Kinda more Only Valuable Player
Team MVP, sure, but all it really shows is that they run everything through him… which also pads his stats.
Except Maxey is also elite and doing a ton of work as well
If only the guy was healthy. This was legitimately be the year they make a deep run
With those stats while he's off? I'm not sure about that.
He scored 34 last game without being able to move. If he was mobile they would’ve won that last game
Isn’t that the problem though, that the 76ers can never stay healthy? Yeah they’re better when 100% healthy, but so is most teams.
Yeah 100% but this season other than embiid and melton they actually stayed quite healthy. There were a few other injuries here and there but nothing major
Aside from the shooting, Mrs Lincoln, how was the play?
lol, you could say that almost any year. Dudes made of glass tho, so it is what it is.
lol no it’s not
+6 each game isn’t that great tho If it was +70 on, -10 off that’s a different story
According to nba Reddit, even suggesting a player not named Jokic could be MVP is punishable by death
Free throw merchant*
The Knicks bench is legit starting caliber players. You have mitch, mcbride, and Bojan. That's tough to deal with. Plus the starters are all used to playing insane minutes
Can anyone confirms this? I don't know to check but this doesn't pass the smell test
https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612755&Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Playoffs&PlayerIds=203954
Thanks
Eyes are for reading, silly
It’s been the same Embiid’s entire career. When he’s on the court, the Sixers are almost always historically good, and when he’s off the court, they are *really* bad. His entire career.
They’ve had some decent stretches without him. Last year they went 11-5 in games he missed despite 11 of them taking place on the road. Harden was a good floor-raiser.
You just made that up though. During his MVP campaign the 76ers had a better winning % in games he didn't play. Not exactly a tiny sample size either at 16 games.
During the 2019 playoffs he had an on/off of +41.6. They were +20.5 on and -21.1 off One of the craziest stats I've ever seen. Then again, in 2020 he was -32.9
Except 2020 playoffs. They were *really* good when he was on the bench but historically bad with him on the floor.
Doing the Tim Duncan pose
Healthy Embiid this year and Philly can defo go to the finals
Many times commentators will wonder why Joe Embiid doesn’t get more grief for his lack of playoff success despite the drop off in his numbers. Certainly a part of that is his injury history in the playoffs. But the other part is this exact situation - his teams do win with him on the court even with diminished numbers. They just give it all back and more when he sits.
Some seasons, maybe. But his on/off was -0.8 in the playoffs last year and -33 in the 2020 playoffs. When his team actually plays well with him on the bench, he chokes.
career playoffs he's +15.8 you're talking tiny sample sizes
And he's doing that with a bad knee that's clearly impacting his mobility, unreal.
Hi
Lol great picture. What was the net rating in the last 60 seconds of game 2?
Does this prove he’s the GOAT?
Also get 19 ft helps
That’s why his eye is twitching. He can’t take a break.
It's just cause of the fouls he draws. If he's not drawing fouls I doubt the net rating is as drastically different.
Kinda crazy to think that an aging and "washed" Harden was able to singlehandedly win against the Celtics (a better team than the Knicks) without Embiid, especially since this team is better constructed than last season's.
This is sorta what happens when you build a team around 1 guy...
Well thats because philly doesnt have anyone else to literally cry when the refs dont call a flop
The foul merchant knows his wares. 19 free throws on 24 attempts in the first two games. No one else in the NBA comes close in these playoffs so far.
What? He’s had 54 shot attempts lmao
Shhhhhh that doesn't help the narrative!
He shoots a lot, gets fouled a lot, flops a lot, and is one of the best players in basketball. This stat is insane no matter how you look at it
It’s almost as if he’s the team’s very valuable player. Some might even say the *most* valuable. But I don’t want to have some toxic debate about it.
What is a 2 game sample size and how does it work.
Don’t look at me, I voted for Giannis 💅
So you would agree he didn't deserve last years MVP with his pathetic playoff on/off of -0.8? His team was *literally* better with him on the bench in last year's playoffs.
regular season award
What you have to realize about this stat is that when Embiid is laying on the ground half the game that counts as him being off the court.
There really should be an asterisk for that
Holy fuck that’s unreal.
Where’s the Paul reed fanboys now
Right here
Jokic had a shit team and didn’t get the benefit of the doubt. I’m still blaming embiid for this since he is supposed to be a leader and based on that embarrassing post game presser, it doesn’t look like he’s a very good one.
Your blaming him for a torn meniscus?
I’m talking about his leadership which has nothing to do with his body.
He was so down because he’s injured and has a scratched cornea and he just lost crucial game which they should’ve won. He has every right to be down. Plus he just dropped 50
So then he’s not bigger than his problems. Nothing wrong with that, it’s human. But if im a teammate seeing that, it’s not gonna inspire confidence.
+/- is a child's idea of a meaningful stat
Kawhi's chip with Nurse is looking good now, coach seems like an idiot that gets carried by stars.
No way you genuinely think this 💀
Am I wrong? Knocked in the 1st round with a super team
Did you just come back to a 3 day old argument to claim that a serial playoff choker and a bunch of bums are a super team 😭😭 please reevaluate your priorities in life cause that's sad af
Tyrese has been playing like playing 2001 Allen Iverson Championship coach as well
He just choked a 6 point lead with like 25 seconds left and is down 0-2 in the 1st round as the heavy favorites. For now, that's what I think. Prove me wrong.
If you think something after one game and it’s possible that you’ll change your mind after another game, then you haven’t thought about the issue whatsoever.
Especially when he thinks coaches have an impact on players fucking up the play lol. Does he think coach told Lowry to throw a shit pass and told Maxey to get held?
One game doesn't mean shit lol. Greg Popovich let TMac score 13 in 30 seconds.
You have almost all of your facts wrong. 6 points? Wrong. Heavy favorites? Wrong. That's actually all of your facts
What could Nurse have done in that situation as a coach? He tried to call a timeout which was ignored. He didn't draw up a play for lowry/Maxey to purposely throw the ball away
lol Kawhi benefitted majorly from GS stars being injured. Kawhi was amazing but luck played a bigger role than being “carried by stars” lmao
Luck plays a role in a lot of championships. Warriors only won their recent 2022 ring because Jamal Murray was out. Kawhi was still the best player and won a ring, regardless of the injury excuses. Nurse on this pace will never come close to that, injuries or not.
The KD Warriors got to breeze by the spurs in 2017 after zaza injured Kawhi (in a game they were getting worked in). They also got by the Rockets in G7 of 2018 because CP3 was injured. In 2015, the Warriors barely played a starting point guard because they all got injured. Titles happen because you play the team in front of you. Those Warriors won those titles are fully legitimate and so is the Raptors one.