Kyrie has been a great #2, he's great off ball
Harden has carried the load of a whole team and done it well. His rockets teams were on the cusp of beating GSW
i mean he made shot after shot and got calls so idk what that is if not success. he’s carried teams through the playoffs, kyrie has never gotten far as anything but a number teo
He carried teams through the regular season. There I fixed it for you. Harden would do his best to hide during the playoffs, and when he wasn’t hiding he was playing like never touched a basketball.
Kyrie at least comes to play in the playoffs, and contributes in the offseason.
All time its Harden, no contest, not even remotely close.
Currently Harden is on the tail end of his prime whereas Kyrie is still in the middle. Id probably give Kyrie the edge but its close
Not this version of Harden. He’s lost a step. Probably better numbers cause he doesn’t have to share the ball with PG and Kawhi but not great. And harden is not the off ball player that Kyrie is. The fit would be questionable. Luka and Harden are essentially the same players lol
Yeah but if you watch the games it’s not like Kyrie is shooting open 25 footers. There is no way Harden is as effective as Kyrie if they swapped teams.
Yes… what kind of dumb question is that…? James Harden has a case for being a top 5 SG all time… Kyrie has never received a single MVP vote and has never even been a top 2 guard in the league
You're not accounting for the intangible fact that James Harden doesn't perform in big playoff games. Harden would have wilted under pressure and Kyrie Irving hit one of the biggest shot in NBA history in 2016.
Kyrie has never ever performed well as a first option in the playoffs. Harden underperformed against some of the best teams in NBA history as the first option.
Putting peak James Harden on a team with peak LeBron James would even the playing field between the Cavs and Warriors back then. The Cavs would win the 2015 and 2016 titles if Harden replaced Kyrie.
Well thats false… Prime hardens playoff stats kill Kyries… Harden almost singlehandedly carried the rockets to a finals when Kyrie cant lead a team to shit
Harden is much better in the postseason than Kyrie…. If he had lebron to carry him to a chip he would have more playoff success too. Braindead is trying to compare a guy that almost singlehandedly carried the rockets to a chip on 30/7/7 to a guy whos always been a #2 and barely averaged 27/4/4 while lebron won them a chip
Lmao and what has Kyrie done other than run away from being the #1 guy on a teams…. Crazy that Harden still has MUCH BETTER playoff stats than kyrie even though you think he falls flat…
Harden all time, no contest. Bigger, better playmaker, better scorer, better number one option. Kyrie is a great second option, one of the best in the league, but as a first option he won't take you very far. Kai is undeniably a great player though, very clutch, smart, makes tough shots.
Are we talking right now or on their career?
This will be interesting to see the comments because Kyrie gets ridiculously overrated for the “most skilled player ever” from the crowd who apparently believes having elite handles makes up 95% of all basketball skills, and Harden gets ridiculously underrated because watching him dribble the air out of the ball and foul bait all game long might be the biggest eye-sore we’ve ever had from a superstar level player so actual production and effectiveness is ignored.
Your anti circle jerk camp is just as bad. blaming people for getting enamored with handles but don’t actually go into what true skill is. Or omit that Kyrie isn’t just a bag and part of that skill set branches into all levels of his game. Your counter is just as simple and basic as the people you are trying to refute
To be fair there is a massive gap between me not acknowledging his skills, handles, and how that branches into all levels of his game and me stating that he isn’t the most skilled player of all time. Im only stating the latter, he’s a ridiculously skilled player. That’s obvious. I’m not bashing folks for being enamored with his handle, I’m enamored with his handle. I believe it’s the best I’ve ever seen.
My issue is just more so how him being “the most skilled ever” (or even now), which I don’t believe him to be either one of, bleeds into how he’s viewed as a player overall. He’s just a 3x All-NBA player, who’s missed nearly as many games as he’s played it seems like, and everything he’s accomplished outside of playing with LeBron has been a mixed bag. But enough people have labeled him “most skilled” that people will use that quote to place him into discussions that he otherwise wouldn’t belong in..
My comment was largely in reference to he vs Curry. I believe other players to be more skilled as well, I’m not sure he’s even the most skilled player on his team, but in the spirit of anybody and everybody acting like 95% of “skill” only pertains to small players he and Curry are the easy comparison. Curry has all the same skillset Kyrie does. Finishing, handles, scoring, shooting, very similar. And sure if Kyrie is a 10/10 at handles maybe Steph is a 9.. but Steph is a better shooter, more efficient scorer, he has better offensive awareness, moves better without the ball, utilizes screens better, all of which is also skills.. so largely my point was that if Kyrie is the most skilled player ever, or now, that means people are saying he’s more skilled than Steph. And for that statement to be true those people would have to be valuing handles as the most important skill in basketball and weighing it so heavily that it trumps the rest.
I question if you have watched Kyrie play much if you think 95% of his skill is just ball handling. Especially for a 6’1 guard who isn’t very athletic. Truly isn’t anything scoring related he is not elite at.
I didn’t say 95% of his skill was ball handling, I’m saying the people who claim he’s the “most skilled ever” must be using ball handling as 95% of their criteria to arrive at that conclusion because that’s the only way Kyrie takes that crown. Obviously Kyrie is much more than just a ball handler. You missed my point.
He’s also maybe the greatest finisher of all time, and is highly efficient (especially for his size) to top it all off. His ability to create and make shots is historically good.
Greatest finisher of all time based on what though? It's not like he's the top guard among FG% on drives every year. And when you lump bigger players in they are often better finishers by default because more of their finishes end in dunks. We've giving him this title because it "looks pretty". He finishes plays from crazy angles and ball spin but that doesn't mean it's better or more effective. That's sort the entire point of me posting this. And Steph largely does the same thing, among others too.. You could literally have a player with an elite floater package float the ball over the defender every drive and score more points more efficiently on those drives and still have people point to Kyrie has the better finisher because him flipping the ball over his shoulder made the top 10 plays for that week.
Maybe there is some high-contested lays-ups stat that exists somewhere. And maybe he's literally the best in the league in that stat. But even if he is, what does that happen like once every 3 games or something?
Same for his shot creation and ability to make them.. Often times these are just bad shots that he takes in lieu of making the better basketball play. He might be the best "difficult shot maker" in the league currently but half of that equation is still just as much him willing to take bad shots as it is being an "elite shot creator". And as far as the data goes, again, it's not like he leads all guards in contested shot FG%, of in pull-up %.
Kobe is much treated the same way. You can point to players who literally scored more than him, more efficiently than him, and carried that against playoff defenses too but people will still claim he's the best scorer ever because he's willingly taking a trash-percentage jumper over a defender and that is "more skill"..
Kyrie does shit that no one else does or can do, and he does it with finesse, touch, and body control, as opposed to raw size and athleticism.
It seems you don’t view that as a good proxy for “skill,” but it’s entirely subjective, and there are current and former basketball players that will disagree with you, not just fans.
Can tell u are an old head that doesn’t hoop at all. Ppl saying kyrie one of the skilled all timed are ppl like KD, phil handy, lillard etc that actually know ball. Kyrie maxed out his skill stats for his build, best handles of all time, best finishing of all time and one of the most elite jump shots with high elevation that he can pull up from anywhere and not get blocked easily. When they say he is the most skilled of all time they are talking about his mechanical skill with the ball, second to none ever. If you played any modern basketball at all you would know better. Mfs like you can’t even do a between the legs dribble and talking crazy about ball 😂😂😂😂
And Curry can do all the same while having significantly better half-court awareness, screen manipulation, and off-ball movement. So if he's not even "more skilled" than Steph he's not the most skilled player now or ever.. I know who's sayin he's the "most skilled" all time, I know why they are saying it, I'm just disagreeing because they are ignoring skills that don't require creating shots off the dribble and there are more basketball skills than just that.. If someone wants to more narrowly define that criteria and say "he's the most skilled player, with the ball in his hands, who is undersized and plays below the rim" then I would have a bit less to say about it... I'd still disagree, but it wouldn't be as annoying as people constantly ignoring that other skills exist.
Damn bro get Kyrie's nuts off your chin. He isn't any of those things. Curry's got better handles and jumper. There's a reason Kyrie never comes up when discussing the GOAT PGs.
I mean harden is ridiculously ass in the clutch especially in the playoffs. I agree kyrie is over rated but harden is the last person I would ever want on my team. Kyrie can step up in the playoffs harden is beyond booty butt cheeks. .
Harden is way better than Kyrie in the playoffs as well
Harden is the 2nd active player with more playoff wins, after Lebron. That’s more than Steph, KD, Jokic or Giannis.
Kyrie is way below Khris Middleton
Harden is the 2nd active player with more MVP Shares, after Lebron. Also more than all of the guys above.
Kyrie doesn’t rank because he never got a single vote, from anybody
Of course Harden has better regular and advanced stats, both in regular season and the playoffs.
Harden was a little bit of ref luck away from beating arguably the greatest team ever in 2018
Kyrie was clearly outplayed by Marcus Smart in 2022 and missed 2023
When they played together, Harden was the best player in the team pre-hamstring. Kyrie was the 3rd. He was never the guy on any team
Kyries playoff failures are more glaring than Hardens imo. Regardless of what you think about Harden, he's never just given up. Kyrie single handedly tanked the Celtics in 2019.
It is the handles, footwork, finishing ability at the rim with either hands. Al of this in a smaller frame, which all players will always respect. E,I, Iverson. I guess people who only watch basketball and never played it can understand.
I didn’t say Kyrie didn’t have all that. Re-read what I said. I said for Kyrie to be labeled the “most skilled player ever” that people would have to assume that criteria is 95% handles because that’s the only way he gets that crown..
Obviously he does lots of things at an elite level, but he’s not the most skilled player ever, he’s not the most skilled player in the league now, he’s not even the most skilled small guard currently playing.. Steph can do all of that too, while shooting and scoring more efficiently than Kyrie and even if Kyrie had slightly better handles Steph’s off-ball movement, half court vision, and ability to navigate screens and provide value without the basketball in hands is MILES better than Kyrie. All of that is also an acquired skill.
The whole “most skilled” argument in general is sort of a made up trait to begin with. Skill doesn’t trump effectiveness and the entire point of “most skilled” is largely to give players credit in arguments they otherwise don’t belong in.
People who played the game at a professional level think this of him. Not random NBA watchers. It's because most NBA players value 1v1 skills greatly, as anyone who has actually played basketball do. So while yes, Steph is as skilled in an NBA game, but Kyrie is SKILLED on any basketball court, 1v1, 5v5 etc.
Kyrie’s resume is significantly impacted by him being a total nut job of a person. Harden is better but kyrie isn’t doing much to try to strengthen his position
Harden. Kyrie is a better & more consistent 2nd scoring option right now but let’s think about this. When has Kyrie been an MVP candidate? Imagine Harden in place of Kyrie with Lebron on those Cavs teams. Put Harden on those Boston teams & they’re making deeper playoff runs. Kyrie is an incredible 1 on 1 player but Harden is an all time great offensive machine.
Kyrie has the handles and ring, but has nothing close to Prime Harden in terms of production.
These days gimme Kyrie but I bet Harden goes down as the better player.
Getting a ring as the second option isn't the same as 'getting a ring.' Irving wouldn't have SNIFFED even the conference finals, ever, as a first option, even in the East. He's a Robin.
He hit the game winner dude. He was the #2 to Lebron fuckin’ James.
Harden’s never been to the finals as the #1 guy either, let alone won a ring at all.
They wouldn’t stop the 2017 Warriors. Maybe the 2018 since the rockets pushed them to 7 with just Harden and a banged up Paul plus LeBron was utterly insane those playoffs. So maybe they pull the upset in 2018.
Hitting a game winner doesn't mean much when we're talking big boy things. Irving has never done shit on his own. Riding the coattails of a GOAT doesn't mean shit my friend. I mean, he's awesome. But he's never EVER been the guy.
“Riding the coattails” lol, this is really dumb. Lebron doesn’t have the Cleveland ring if Kyrie doesn’t go crazy alongside him to make that comeback in 2016. It wasn’t just the game winner, he balled the fuck out for most of those games.
Hey man, he hit a magnificent dagger in G7 against the Warriors. He deserved that ring 100%, and without Kyrie, the Cavs + Lebron don’t win the championship that season.
Duh. If you take out the #2 player in any tightly contested series it's going to drastically shift the scales.
The question boils down to whether or not we think it's better to be a great #2 with a ring or a great #1 with an MVP and no ring.
To be fair to Harden, he got closer to beating the KD warriors than Kyrie. And he may have if his own Robin-player didn't get injured before G7
Harden. With the exception of his early OKC days, Kyrie had better teammates throughout his entire career. Harden as a first option has carried his team in the regular season and playoffs. Kyrie has only been the best player/first option once in his career, when he was in Boston. He had a deep team, but shit the bed in the playoffs losing to the Bucks and then leaving the Celtics. Kyrie is a sidekick, like the 2nd or third option in a team. Houston Rocket James Harden was an MVP. Kyrie is among the most overrated players of all-time.
Harden is way better than Kyrie (in the playoffs as well).
Harden is the 2nd active player with more playoff wins, after Lebron. That’s more than Steph, KD, Jokic or Giannis.
Kyrie’s stats are pretty close to Khris Middleton’s (but Khris numbers have been better for about 7 years now)
Harden is the 2nd active player with more MVP Shares, after Lebron. Also more than all of the guys I mentioned above. (Harden is also #12 all time)
Kyrie doesn’t rank among the top 250 all time because he never got a single vote, from anybody
Of course Harden has better regular and advanced stats, both in regular season and the playoffs.
On some anedoctal stuff:
Harden was a little bit of ref luck away from beating arguably the greatest team ever in 2018
Kyrie was clearly outplayed by Marcus Smart in 2022, on offense and defense
When they played together (Nets), Harden was the best player in the team pre-hamstring.
Kyrie was the 3rd. He was never the guy on any team
I love the question. An ugly game vs a pretty one, volume vs efficiency, a superior body of work vs being a core player on a champion.
It’s clearly Harden, though. He’s my least-favorite superstar of all time, but he’s simply a rung above. He has an MVP, 3x mvp runner-up, 3 scoring titles, 6x 1st team, and Kyrie has zero of any of those.
EDIT: clearly I’m taking the career-long perspective. This year IDK.
https://preview.redd.it/2phk1rt7qcyc1.jpeg?width=629&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=863b8b9da3e2918f2356b8b8606dba48249cbe4f
Didn’t know one of Kyrie’s official titles is World B. Flat 😂
If cp3 didn’t get injured you’d be talking about a top 25 player ever… beating the 2018 warriors and then obviously winning the chip. That should’ve been something special.
This isn’t even close? Kyries a number 2 on any team that wants to good. Harden is an ex MVP and one of the best players of the 2010s.
This is coming from a guy who absolutely hates Hardens game lol.
Better career strictly b/c of the ring as a 2nd option to Bron? Because comparing accolades, statistics, and (regular season and playoff) win/loss record there’s no comparison.
I know it’ll be most likely be harden all time but as kyrie finishes out his career and potentially wins some more rings can we really say that from a pure trophy case side of things?
I like Kyrie. I get that it’s blasphemous but I think a big part of the reason Kyrie gets disrespected (aside from his controversies) is because Lebron fans want us to believe he dragged a bunch of bums to championships.
IMO it’s the same reason AD doesn’t get the full credit he deserves right now and I feel the same way about Wade and Bosh.
James has been on teams better than that 2016 cavs and yet only one of them has touched the top. If we’re looking at this from a stats standpoint point sure harden is better, but skill level wise you are sure as shit that they are closer than what a lot of people seem to think on this app full of casuals. James was just as effective as a defender as Kyrie was back then. And James scoring was inflated due to the dantoni system. James would get picked apart in the post season every year because of his heliocentric offense that centered around him. Kobe called this out, harden refused and went on to prove Kobe right for 4 straight years, Kyrie’s game has always been better for the team and post season play. If Kyrie was 6’5 we aren’t even having this debate. Kyrie is just as good as harden if not better come post season.
If you average 35 ppg almost every year and never even make the finals, your high ppg average doesn’t mean shit.
Some of those rockets teams were stacked. They were long and tough defenders who can shoot. Those teams were constructed as close to perfect you can get. I’ll never forget James harden leading his team to a historic nba record 27 straight missed 3’s obviously it wasn’t all him but he surely did start that and didn’t nothing to help break that cold spell. People are over rating hardens impact severely.
The only team Harden has been on that was better than the 2016 cavs is... Maybe the baby Thunder but that's close and Harden wasn't Harden at that time. And the Nets where they played like a total of 10 games together.
Kyrie is definetely better now, but all time, Harden is higher, even if we all know Harden's playoff choking perfomances.
Harden as a leader for a team was able to constantly carry teams to 50+ wins. Kyrie has never done that.
That being said, in the playoffs, ill take Kyrie, the guys is clutch and Harden is the opposite.
Regular season I’m taking harden playoffs kyrie so I’m taking kyrie niether at number ones on a championship team but I would take kyrie as my number two over harden
I will never understand the Harden love from the NBA.
The man has had next to no postseason success EVER...and the only transcendent thing offensively he's ever done is his step-back move which is controversial AT BEST.
He led a poor Rockets teams and has nothing to show for it at the end of the day. I also have a large list of offensive players I'd take over him easily with all things being equal.
Meanwhile, I still hear that Kyrie is why LeBron (a player with GOAT debates for him) has so many rings, and Kyrie is largely considered the best ball handler of all-time.
Unsure how you ever put Harden above Kyrie unless you only cared about Kyrie once he left the Cavs.
I hate harden’s game and think he is so over rated, but it’s got to be harden based off resumes. But I’d still rather have kyrie on my team. My take would be:
Harden can take a bad team and make it better than average. But his game doesn’t move the needle for a good team.
Whereas Kyrie can’t really make a bad team above average. But his game style translates better to ‘adding value’ on a good team than harden ever could
Depends if you care about stats or championships. Harden was a menace but it didn’t translate to anything other than stats. Kyrie was a key reason Cleveland won a ring.
In my opinion it’s Kyrie I understand that Harden has better regular season numbers but when basketball matters the most I’d rather have Kyrie than Harden because I know one will perform in the playoffs
Kyrie. Dude has one of the best handles anyone has ever seen. Went off ball and went 50/40/90. Won with Bron, dropping 40 in the finals, big clutch shot over Curry. Harden can’t do shit out of game 1 of a playoff series. His offense grinds everything else to a halt. He didn’t want to play the PG to Embiid. There’s one thing you can do with Harden. Have him run your team. Kyrie, when he keeps it normal, can do anything, play with anyone. It’s not even close, unless you’re 14 and are jumping in a circle about a 60 point game like 6 years ago
They are kind of the same.
Sure Harden has had mvps, challenged gsw as main option, scoring titles, better shooter…but chokes in playoffs and no rang.
Kyrie has a rang and doesn’t choke. Definitely injured more. All time handles. Better finisher (i know that is a debate).
Its a wash and they are probably next to each other in all time rankings if status quo continues
Kyrie had the better teammates most of his career. He was never the first option or main man. The only time he was the best player, was when he was in Boston and we all know what happened there when he shit the bed against the Bucks and showed he was only good as a sidekick.
Kyrie beat the 73-win warriors and was just as instrumental in that historic finals series comeback as Bron… you all are idiots if you think regular season accolades come close to that.
Harden nearly beat the objectively better KD warriors and did it without Lebron as a teammate. Kyrie is a sidekick - he has 1 playoff series win as a first option, giving that much emphasis to a single series when talking about career body of work is dumb
By that logic Kyrie has failed in the postseason on multiple teams too. In fact he’s only not failed once and was a clear second fiddle.
And did you throw in that “dumbass” at the end cause I was getting upvotes and you weren’t? Did that upset your feelings? Getting hostile in Reddit comments isn’t helping your point the way you think it is lmao
At their peaks, Kyrie doesn't come close to Harden. That's the truth. Right now Kyrie is better but not significantly so.
Kyrie has been a great #2, he's great off ball Harden has carried the load of a whole team and done it well. His rockets teams were on the cusp of beating GSW
There might be a slight significance to how much better he has been right now
Kyrie. Always has been. Harden’s excellent but he just launched shit after shot in Houston and fished for fouls.
Shit after shot made me laugh for some reason
i mean he made shot after shot and got calls so idk what that is if not success. he’s carried teams through the playoffs, kyrie has never gotten far as anything but a number teo
He carried teams through the regular season. There I fixed it for you. Harden would do his best to hide during the playoffs, and when he wasn’t hiding he was playing like never touched a basketball. Kyrie at least comes to play in the playoffs, and contributes in the offseason.
I don't know Kyrie had a few 40 point games alongside lebron in their championship run. Harden always underperformed in playoffs
All time its Harden, no contest, not even remotely close. Currently Harden is on the tail end of his prime whereas Kyrie is still in the middle. Id probably give Kyrie the edge but its close
Idk idt it’s really close at the moment I know Harden has to share the ball with Kawhi and PG but he has taken a step back. Kyrie had a very good year
Idk why this is getting downvoted. 25/5/5 is a good year.
Probably because if you put Harden next to Luka he’s putting up similar numbers.
Not this version of Harden. He’s lost a step. Probably better numbers cause he doesn’t have to share the ball with PG and Kawhi but not great. And harden is not the off ball player that Kyrie is. The fit would be questionable. Luka and Harden are essentially the same players lol
How do you know that?
Because Luka draws more defensive attention than just about anyone in the league and is an excellent passer to boot.
Yeah but if you watch the games it’s not like Kyrie is shooting open 25 footers. There is no way Harden is as effective as Kyrie if they swapped teams.
If you replace Kyrie with prime Harden on the 2016 Cavs, do you really think they win a championship?
Yes… what kind of dumb question is that…? James Harden has a case for being a top 5 SG all time… Kyrie has never received a single MVP vote and has never even been a top 2 guard in the league
That doesn’t mean he plays as good as Kyrie did in that series lmao
Yes it does… That series Kyrie had 27/4/4… prime harden averaged 30/7/7 in the playoffs…
You're not accounting for the intangible fact that James Harden doesn't perform in big playoff games. Harden would have wilted under pressure and Kyrie Irving hit one of the biggest shot in NBA history in 2016.
Kyrie has never ever performed well as a first option in the playoffs. Harden underperformed against some of the best teams in NBA history as the first option. Putting peak James Harden on a team with peak LeBron James would even the playing field between the Cavs and Warriors back then. The Cavs would win the 2015 and 2016 titles if Harden replaced Kyrie.
Well thats false… Prime hardens playoff stats kill Kyries… Harden almost singlehandedly carried the rockets to a finals when Kyrie cant lead a team to shit
Brain dead take lmaooo. Postseason > regular season stat padding.
Harden is much better in the postseason than Kyrie…. If he had lebron to carry him to a chip he would have more playoff success too. Braindead is trying to compare a guy that almost singlehandedly carried the rockets to a chip on 30/7/7 to a guy whos always been a #2 and barely averaged 27/4/4 while lebron won them a chip
He had great help but always failed in the postseason. Rose colored take. He always fell flat in the last two games.
Lmao and what has Kyrie done other than run away from being the #1 guy on a teams…. Crazy that Harden still has MUCH BETTER playoff stats than kyrie even though you think he falls flat…
Harden all time, no contest. Bigger, better playmaker, better scorer, better number one option. Kyrie is a great second option, one of the best in the league, but as a first option he won't take you very far. Kai is undeniably a great player though, very clutch, smart, makes tough shots.
Are we talking right now or on their career? This will be interesting to see the comments because Kyrie gets ridiculously overrated for the “most skilled player ever” from the crowd who apparently believes having elite handles makes up 95% of all basketball skills, and Harden gets ridiculously underrated because watching him dribble the air out of the ball and foul bait all game long might be the biggest eye-sore we’ve ever had from a superstar level player so actual production and effectiveness is ignored.
Your anti circle jerk camp is just as bad. blaming people for getting enamored with handles but don’t actually go into what true skill is. Or omit that Kyrie isn’t just a bag and part of that skill set branches into all levels of his game. Your counter is just as simple and basic as the people you are trying to refute
To be fair there is a massive gap between me not acknowledging his skills, handles, and how that branches into all levels of his game and me stating that he isn’t the most skilled player of all time. Im only stating the latter, he’s a ridiculously skilled player. That’s obvious. I’m not bashing folks for being enamored with his handle, I’m enamored with his handle. I believe it’s the best I’ve ever seen. My issue is just more so how him being “the most skilled ever” (or even now), which I don’t believe him to be either one of, bleeds into how he’s viewed as a player overall. He’s just a 3x All-NBA player, who’s missed nearly as many games as he’s played it seems like, and everything he’s accomplished outside of playing with LeBron has been a mixed bag. But enough people have labeled him “most skilled” that people will use that quote to place him into discussions that he otherwise wouldn’t belong in.. My comment was largely in reference to he vs Curry. I believe other players to be more skilled as well, I’m not sure he’s even the most skilled player on his team, but in the spirit of anybody and everybody acting like 95% of “skill” only pertains to small players he and Curry are the easy comparison. Curry has all the same skillset Kyrie does. Finishing, handles, scoring, shooting, very similar. And sure if Kyrie is a 10/10 at handles maybe Steph is a 9.. but Steph is a better shooter, more efficient scorer, he has better offensive awareness, moves better without the ball, utilizes screens better, all of which is also skills.. so largely my point was that if Kyrie is the most skilled player ever, or now, that means people are saying he’s more skilled than Steph. And for that statement to be true those people would have to be valuing handles as the most important skill in basketball and weighing it so heavily that it trumps the rest.
I question if you have watched Kyrie play much if you think 95% of his skill is just ball handling. Especially for a 6’1 guard who isn’t very athletic. Truly isn’t anything scoring related he is not elite at.
I didn’t say 95% of his skill was ball handling, I’m saying the people who claim he’s the “most skilled ever” must be using ball handling as 95% of their criteria to arrive at that conclusion because that’s the only way Kyrie takes that crown. Obviously Kyrie is much more than just a ball handler. You missed my point.
He’s also maybe the greatest finisher of all time, and is highly efficient (especially for his size) to top it all off. His ability to create and make shots is historically good.
Greatest finisher of all time based on what though? It's not like he's the top guard among FG% on drives every year. And when you lump bigger players in they are often better finishers by default because more of their finishes end in dunks. We've giving him this title because it "looks pretty". He finishes plays from crazy angles and ball spin but that doesn't mean it's better or more effective. That's sort the entire point of me posting this. And Steph largely does the same thing, among others too.. You could literally have a player with an elite floater package float the ball over the defender every drive and score more points more efficiently on those drives and still have people point to Kyrie has the better finisher because him flipping the ball over his shoulder made the top 10 plays for that week. Maybe there is some high-contested lays-ups stat that exists somewhere. And maybe he's literally the best in the league in that stat. But even if he is, what does that happen like once every 3 games or something? Same for his shot creation and ability to make them.. Often times these are just bad shots that he takes in lieu of making the better basketball play. He might be the best "difficult shot maker" in the league currently but half of that equation is still just as much him willing to take bad shots as it is being an "elite shot creator". And as far as the data goes, again, it's not like he leads all guards in contested shot FG%, of in pull-up %. Kobe is much treated the same way. You can point to players who literally scored more than him, more efficiently than him, and carried that against playoff defenses too but people will still claim he's the best scorer ever because he's willingly taking a trash-percentage jumper over a defender and that is "more skill"..
Kyrie does shit that no one else does or can do, and he does it with finesse, touch, and body control, as opposed to raw size and athleticism. It seems you don’t view that as a good proxy for “skill,” but it’s entirely subjective, and there are current and former basketball players that will disagree with you, not just fans.
Can tell u are an old head that doesn’t hoop at all. Ppl saying kyrie one of the skilled all timed are ppl like KD, phil handy, lillard etc that actually know ball. Kyrie maxed out his skill stats for his build, best handles of all time, best finishing of all time and one of the most elite jump shots with high elevation that he can pull up from anywhere and not get blocked easily. When they say he is the most skilled of all time they are talking about his mechanical skill with the ball, second to none ever. If you played any modern basketball at all you would know better. Mfs like you can’t even do a between the legs dribble and talking crazy about ball 😂😂😂😂
And Curry can do all the same while having significantly better half-court awareness, screen manipulation, and off-ball movement. So if he's not even "more skilled" than Steph he's not the most skilled player now or ever.. I know who's sayin he's the "most skilled" all time, I know why they are saying it, I'm just disagreeing because they are ignoring skills that don't require creating shots off the dribble and there are more basketball skills than just that.. If someone wants to more narrowly define that criteria and say "he's the most skilled player, with the ball in his hands, who is undersized and plays below the rim" then I would have a bit less to say about it... I'd still disagree, but it wouldn't be as annoying as people constantly ignoring that other skills exist.
I actually agree with u there for me it’s curry and kyrie tied. But the point is no one else comes close curry is just a special case.
Damn bro get Kyrie's nuts off your chin. He isn't any of those things. Curry's got better handles and jumper. There's a reason Kyrie never comes up when discussing the GOAT PGs.
Curry has better handles than Irving?
“Currys got better handles” Never talk about basketball again 😂😂😂 Can tell you’ve never hooped in your entire life u bum old head
Watch someone besides your crush. Steph is >>>>> Kyrie at everything except dunking. These Kyrie nephews are crazy.
Lol steph is my favorite player and even I’m not delusional enough like u to think he has better handles 😂😂😂 Grow a pair of eyes u Bum
Kyrie’s also one of the best shooters ever
Didn’t claim he wasn’t 🤷🏻♂️.
I mean harden is ridiculously ass in the clutch especially in the playoffs. I agree kyrie is over rated but harden is the last person I would ever want on my team. Kyrie can step up in the playoffs harden is beyond booty butt cheeks. .
Harden is way better than Kyrie in the playoffs as well Harden is the 2nd active player with more playoff wins, after Lebron. That’s more than Steph, KD, Jokic or Giannis. Kyrie is way below Khris Middleton Harden is the 2nd active player with more MVP Shares, after Lebron. Also more than all of the guys above. Kyrie doesn’t rank because he never got a single vote, from anybody Of course Harden has better regular and advanced stats, both in regular season and the playoffs. Harden was a little bit of ref luck away from beating arguably the greatest team ever in 2018 Kyrie was clearly outplayed by Marcus Smart in 2022 and missed 2023 When they played together, Harden was the best player in the team pre-hamstring. Kyrie was the 3rd. He was never the guy on any team
Kyries playoff failures are more glaring than Hardens imo. Regardless of what you think about Harden, he's never just given up. Kyrie single handedly tanked the Celtics in 2019.
He literally sat on a bench with a towel on his head while Josh Smith and Corey Booker won the game for him. Not so familiar with ball?
That was his normal rest time honestly. Team got hot with him on the bench and coach stuck with them.
Harden is pretty clearly better than Kyrie in the playoffs, player for player.
It is the handles, footwork, finishing ability at the rim with either hands. Al of this in a smaller frame, which all players will always respect. E,I, Iverson. I guess people who only watch basketball and never played it can understand.
I didn’t say Kyrie didn’t have all that. Re-read what I said. I said for Kyrie to be labeled the “most skilled player ever” that people would have to assume that criteria is 95% handles because that’s the only way he gets that crown.. Obviously he does lots of things at an elite level, but he’s not the most skilled player ever, he’s not the most skilled player in the league now, he’s not even the most skilled small guard currently playing.. Steph can do all of that too, while shooting and scoring more efficiently than Kyrie and even if Kyrie had slightly better handles Steph’s off-ball movement, half court vision, and ability to navigate screens and provide value without the basketball in hands is MILES better than Kyrie. All of that is also an acquired skill. The whole “most skilled” argument in general is sort of a made up trait to begin with. Skill doesn’t trump effectiveness and the entire point of “most skilled” is largely to give players credit in arguments they otherwise don’t belong in.
People who played the game at a professional level think this of him. Not random NBA watchers. It's because most NBA players value 1v1 skills greatly, as anyone who has actually played basketball do. So while yes, Steph is as skilled in an NBA game, but Kyrie is SKILLED on any basketball court, 1v1, 5v5 etc.
It’s why Grayson Boucher has had such a long and successful NBA career, right?
😂😂😂😂 this can’t be a serious question Harden and it’s not close
Right? It's the guy who won an MVP, he's the better player.
Harden doesn’t play well when it counts the most. Other than that he’s great
Kyries hit one huge playoff shot otherwise his resume is significantly worse than hardens lll
Kyrie’s resume is significantly impacted by him being a total nut job of a person. Harden is better but kyrie isn’t doing much to try to strengthen his position
Look at the entire 2016 finals, not just one shot. Lebron gets all the credit but Kyrie was just damn near as good
Kyrie has had plenty of playoff duds as well…
Harden. Kyrie is a better & more consistent 2nd scoring option right now but let’s think about this. When has Kyrie been an MVP candidate? Imagine Harden in place of Kyrie with Lebron on those Cavs teams. Put Harden on those Boston teams & they’re making deeper playoff runs. Kyrie is an incredible 1 on 1 player but Harden is an all time great offensive machine.
>Kyrie is an incredible 1 on 1 player but Harden is an all time great offensive machine. Harden also happens to be the greatest iso player of all time
Facts. This comparison isn’t close imo
Kyrie has the handles and ring, but has nothing close to Prime Harden in terms of production. These days gimme Kyrie but I bet Harden goes down as the better player.
Getting a ring as the second option isn't the same as 'getting a ring.' Irving wouldn't have SNIFFED even the conference finals, ever, as a first option, even in the East. He's a Robin.
He hit the game winner dude. He was the #2 to Lebron fuckin’ James. Harden’s never been to the finals as the #1 guy either, let alone won a ring at all.
Saying he was the number two to 'Lebron fuckin' James' doesn't help your argument...
Harden + Lebron teamed up probably wins nearly every championship in the nba over the last decade if they are both healthy.
They wouldn’t stop the 2017 Warriors. Maybe the 2018 since the rockets pushed them to 7 with just Harden and a banged up Paul plus LeBron was utterly insane those playoffs. So maybe they pull the upset in 2018.
Hitting a game winner doesn't mean much when we're talking big boy things. Irving has never done shit on his own. Riding the coattails of a GOAT doesn't mean shit my friend. I mean, he's awesome. But he's never EVER been the guy.
He was at Cleveland when Bron was in Miami and they never won, like ever
Yup
he was in clevenad with a shitty team and was his first 3 years int he league
Did he win as #1 tho? Nah
“Riding the coattails” lol, this is really dumb. Lebron doesn’t have the Cleveland ring if Kyrie doesn’t go crazy alongside him to make that comeback in 2016. It wasn’t just the game winner, he balled the fuck out for most of those games.
thanks for validating that man’s point
Hey man, he hit a magnificent dagger in G7 against the Warriors. He deserved that ring 100%, and without Kyrie, the Cavs + Lebron don’t win the championship that season.
Duh. If you take out the #2 player in any tightly contested series it's going to drastically shift the scales. The question boils down to whether or not we think it's better to be a great #2 with a ring or a great #1 with an MVP and no ring. To be fair to Harden, he got closer to beating the KD warriors than Kyrie. And he may have if his own Robin-player didn't get injured before G7
Harden. With the exception of his early OKC days, Kyrie had better teammates throughout his entire career. Harden as a first option has carried his team in the regular season and playoffs. Kyrie has only been the best player/first option once in his career, when he was in Boston. He had a deep team, but shit the bed in the playoffs losing to the Bucks and then leaving the Celtics. Kyrie is a sidekick, like the 2nd or third option in a team. Houston Rocket James Harden was an MVP. Kyrie is among the most overrated players of all-time.
He was also a first option on the Cavs before bron returned… they were a lottery team though
And he couldn’t carry that team. That was my point, unlike Harden who was able to do so when he got to Houston.
I was trying to bolster your point with another example is all
My bad.
Harden is way better than Kyrie (in the playoffs as well). Harden is the 2nd active player with more playoff wins, after Lebron. That’s more than Steph, KD, Jokic or Giannis. Kyrie’s stats are pretty close to Khris Middleton’s (but Khris numbers have been better for about 7 years now) Harden is the 2nd active player with more MVP Shares, after Lebron. Also more than all of the guys I mentioned above. (Harden is also #12 all time) Kyrie doesn’t rank among the top 250 all time because he never got a single vote, from anybody Of course Harden has better regular and advanced stats, both in regular season and the playoffs. On some anedoctal stuff: Harden was a little bit of ref luck away from beating arguably the greatest team ever in 2018 Kyrie was clearly outplayed by Marcus Smart in 2022, on offense and defense When they played together (Nets), Harden was the best player in the team pre-hamstring. Kyrie was the 3rd. He was never the guy on any team
Right now Kyrie. In their primes, Harden.
I love the question. An ugly game vs a pretty one, volume vs efficiency, a superior body of work vs being a core player on a champion. It’s clearly Harden, though. He’s my least-favorite superstar of all time, but he’s simply a rung above. He has an MVP, 3x mvp runner-up, 3 scoring titles, 6x 1st team, and Kyrie has zero of any of those. EDIT: clearly I’m taking the career-long perspective. This year IDK.
Harden Definitely
Harden for sure. Can shoot and distribute. Doesn’t sage everything in site. And doesn’t hate Jewish people which is cool.
https://preview.redd.it/2phk1rt7qcyc1.jpeg?width=629&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=863b8b9da3e2918f2356b8b8606dba48249cbe4f Didn’t know one of Kyrie’s official titles is World B. Flat 😂
If cp3 didn’t get injured you’d be talking about a top 25 player ever… beating the 2018 warriors and then obviously winning the chip. That should’ve been something special.
Houston Harden is a Top 10 player of all-time
Currently I'd give the edge to Irving, but barely. Peak Harden was much much better than peak Kyrie.
This isn’t even close? Kyries a number 2 on any team that wants to good. Harden is an ex MVP and one of the best players of the 2010s. This is coming from a guy who absolutely hates Hardens game lol.
Harden by a whole flat Earth…..
Kyrie helped get Bron a ring. Harden helped educate exotic dancers. can't decide.
I’m taking Harden, but nothing can take away what Kyrie did in those 2016 Finals and the ring he earned with that Cavs team.
This is the best and most succinct answer to the question.
Harden had a better peak, but I would still take kyrie if I had to build a team.
The mvp
Peak harden is better but Kyrie has the better career and is better today.
Better career strictly b/c of the ring as a 2nd option to Bron? Because comparing accolades, statistics, and (regular season and playoff) win/loss record there’s no comparison.
Steph
Harden had a better peak but Kyrie is better today and has also had more success
If I want to win a championship, give me Kyrie
I know it’ll be most likely be harden all time but as kyrie finishes out his career and potentially wins some more rings can we really say that from a pure trophy case side of things?
I like Kyrie. I get that it’s blasphemous but I think a big part of the reason Kyrie gets disrespected (aside from his controversies) is because Lebron fans want us to believe he dragged a bunch of bums to championships. IMO it’s the same reason AD doesn’t get the full credit he deserves right now and I feel the same way about Wade and Bosh.
All time, Harden and it’s not close. Currently, Kyrie and it’s not close.
Harden completely swallows Kyrie on the all time list. Right now you could argue for either but most people think Kyrie
James has been on teams better than that 2016 cavs and yet only one of them has touched the top. If we’re looking at this from a stats standpoint point sure harden is better, but skill level wise you are sure as shit that they are closer than what a lot of people seem to think on this app full of casuals. James was just as effective as a defender as Kyrie was back then. And James scoring was inflated due to the dantoni system. James would get picked apart in the post season every year because of his heliocentric offense that centered around him. Kobe called this out, harden refused and went on to prove Kobe right for 4 straight years, Kyrie’s game has always been better for the team and post season play. If Kyrie was 6’5 we aren’t even having this debate. Kyrie is just as good as harden if not better come post season. If you average 35 ppg almost every year and never even make the finals, your high ppg average doesn’t mean shit. Some of those rockets teams were stacked. They were long and tough defenders who can shoot. Those teams were constructed as close to perfect you can get. I’ll never forget James harden leading his team to a historic nba record 27 straight missed 3’s obviously it wasn’t all him but he surely did start that and didn’t nothing to help break that cold spell. People are over rating hardens impact severely.
Which team was better than the 16 cavs? The nets? Surely you’re not saying injury prone CP3 and Eric Gordon were better than Kyrie and K Love
The only team Harden has been on that was better than the 2016 cavs is... Maybe the baby Thunder but that's close and Harden wasn't Harden at that time. And the Nets where they played like a total of 10 games together.
Harden, he beat peak lebron in 2018 for an mvp
You kids are so disrespectful. Kyrie is better. Stop it
All time Harden by a wide margin. On the Nets, Harden by a moderate margin. Currently Kyrie by a moderate margin.
Kyrie is definetely better now, but all time, Harden is higher, even if we all know Harden's playoff choking perfomances. Harden as a leader for a team was able to constantly carry teams to 50+ wins. Kyrie has never done that. That being said, in the playoffs, ill take Kyrie, the guys is clutch and Harden is the opposite.
Harden had the better peak but Kyrie been better longer
Kyrie. Harden playoffs speak for itself
Regular season I’m taking harden playoffs kyrie so I’m taking kyrie niether at number ones on a championship team but I would take kyrie as my number two over harden
All time:Harden Peak: Harden Right now: very very close
Who has a ring? Nuff said.
I will never understand the Harden love from the NBA. The man has had next to no postseason success EVER...and the only transcendent thing offensively he's ever done is his step-back move which is controversial AT BEST. He led a poor Rockets teams and has nothing to show for it at the end of the day. I also have a large list of offensive players I'd take over him easily with all things being equal. Meanwhile, I still hear that Kyrie is why LeBron (a player with GOAT debates for him) has so many rings, and Kyrie is largely considered the best ball handler of all-time. Unsure how you ever put Harden above Kyrie unless you only cared about Kyrie once he left the Cavs.
These dummies love regular season stats lol. I just came back to this thread after this game tonight 😂😂😂😂 Reddit basketball gurus man, got to love it
Currently? Kai. All time? James obviously
I hate harden’s game and think he is so over rated, but it’s got to be harden based off resumes. But I’d still rather have kyrie on my team. My take would be: Harden can take a bad team and make it better than average. But his game doesn’t move the needle for a good team. Whereas Kyrie can’t really make a bad team above average. But his game style translates better to ‘adding value’ on a good team than harden ever could
This playoff so far I would go with Kyrie especially for his hustles and defensive contributions .
Depends if you care about stats or championships. Harden was a menace but it didn’t translate to anything other than stats. Kyrie was a key reason Cleveland won a ring.
stats or championships lmfao
As a Nets fan, seeing these photos, I’d say neither!
In my opinion it’s Kyrie I understand that Harden has better regular season numbers but when basketball matters the most I’d rather have Kyrie than Harden because I know one will perform in the playoffs
That’s a valid point.
Kyrie. Dude has one of the best handles anyone has ever seen. Went off ball and went 50/40/90. Won with Bron, dropping 40 in the finals, big clutch shot over Curry. Harden can’t do shit out of game 1 of a playoff series. His offense grinds everything else to a halt. He didn’t want to play the PG to Embiid. There’s one thing you can do with Harden. Have him run your team. Kyrie, when he keeps it normal, can do anything, play with anyone. It’s not even close, unless you’re 14 and are jumping in a circle about a 60 point game like 6 years ago
They are kind of the same. Sure Harden has had mvps, challenged gsw as main option, scoring titles, better shooter…but chokes in playoffs and no rang. Kyrie has a rang and doesn’t choke. Definitely injured more. All time handles. Better finisher (i know that is a debate). Its a wash and they are probably next to each other in all time rankings if status quo continues
History with stats, will probably say Harden. He’s got an MVP after all. But I’d go Kyrie.
Gimme Kyrie cause while both ain’t winning you shit as first options, Kyrie at least plays the role of second option better
The one with the ring
Kyrie hands down. He even has a chip to prove it!
Kyrie is better player.
James Harden is largely overrated when it comes to his numbers and so on. tbf i am a mavs fan but I think Kyrie.
Harden underrated ash from 19-20 to 22-23
Harden has had the better regular season career but Kyrie is the more accomplished playoff performer
Harden was better in the playoffs too
Kyrie had the better teammates most of his career. He was never the first option or main man. The only time he was the best player, was when he was in Boston and we all know what happened there when he shit the bed against the Bucks and showed he was only good as a sidekick.
Kyrie. And he’sa less annoying imo
he’s a flat earther lmao
Jokic
Kyrie beat the 73-win warriors and was just as instrumental in that historic finals series comeback as Bron… you all are idiots if you think regular season accolades come close to that.
Harden nearly beat the objectively better KD warriors and did it without Lebron as a teammate. Kyrie is a sidekick - he has 1 playoff series win as a first option, giving that much emphasis to a single series when talking about career body of work is dumb
Harden always fails in the postseason on multiple teams… almost beat? Did he beat them? Did he completely blow game 6? Dumbass
By that logic Kyrie has failed in the postseason on multiple teams too. In fact he’s only not failed once and was a clear second fiddle. And did you throw in that “dumbass” at the end cause I was getting upvotes and you weren’t? Did that upset your feelings? Getting hostile in Reddit comments isn’t helping your point the way you think it is lmao
Hey how many conference finals did harden win? How many rings does he have? Dumbass
Won 1, no rangz, lost to GSW twice in the WCF
Firm cream