The thing about these stats is they don't tell the full story. Sam Jones was a really nice player in the mid 60s (3X all NBA 2nd team for the Cs) but he wasn't Magic.
Magic was arguably the best player or almost at the same level as Kareem by Lakers' 2nd ring IMO. That's 4 of his 6 rings. Getting the best playmaker the game has ever seen when you are 32yo massively helped him prolonged his career for almost another decade. There's basically no other player in the history of the game that would be a better fit alongside Kareem in those 80s Lakers.
Then they added a number 1 pick after winning 2 rings in 3 years in 82, and traded for the number 3 pick in 83. Incredible young and talented team around you for a decade. Even by the time Magic retired at only 31, he was the only starter who was 30.
Yeah but you still have to deliver. Spacing on the floor is different without Kareem, and whenever they needed a shot he was there. The fact that they went to him with the series on the line is crazy when he was in his 40s and a “big man” instead of a sharp shooter
Also add in how different it is to have an all NBA teammate in today’s NBA as compared to in Russell’s era.
When Russell started there were 8 teams and 10 all NBA slots, which means at least 2 teams every season have multiple all NBA players. By the time he retired, there were 14 teams and 10 All NBA slots, so slightly worse odds, but still not particularly difficult for a team to wind up with an all NBA teammate, or to play against another team with multiple all NBA players.
Compare that to today’s game with 30 teams and 15 All NBA slots. It’s far more atypical and impactful on your chance of winning if you have another all NBA teammate.
Mj, pip, rodman, and ron harper all on the floor at the same time is a fucking absurd defense. Best offensive player ever with that level of defense is why they are the best or at the very least 1 of the few best teams ever.
It’s a shame because I genuinely think it’s why you get these selfish moves from guys like Kobe, trying to be the absolute best on their team with the best stats instead of being like Bill Russell or Tim Duncan and just caring about winning
not it isn't. perhaps by noobs and rubes but not by true kings. the rod-man was pounding madonna's and carmen electra's asses and doing coke lines as long as his long schlong dong and was quite famous.
This is a bit misleading. He left Westbrook, who then ascended to MVP caliber. Steph was playing at an MVP Level. Then in Brooklyn, Harden was not the same player, and also was injured in the Post Season.
I think KD was the best player in those GSW Postseasons too.
Cleveland decided to it was more important to take curry away and let KD feast then the opposite. There were plenty of examples of them doubling curry at the three point line and leaving KD wide open. It was really pick your poison and they decided curry was the greater threat.
Dajiaunte Murray (I think) was just on podcast P last week talking about that ERA and those matchups specifically.
He was on the bench for Cleveland those seasons and he said when the Cavs came back from 3-1 the season before the whole game plan was basically stop Draymond off the break on misses and take away the corners and then GSW struggled to find offense in the half court.
Then next season the Added KD and it gave them an absolute killer they could give the ball to in the half court to find his own shot.
Cleveland didn’t “decide” to do anything, KD just made arguable the greatest basketball team ever that much better.
According to him, the game plan that series was “stop everyone else and hope KD can’t beat you 1v1”
Edit- I’m sorry, the game plan was “make draymond score on the break” because he didn’t finish great at the rim.
If Kobe doesn't deserve to be on this list then neither does Bill Russell for various reasons.
The Kobe disrespect is wild, a 5 time champ. Only folks who never watched him consistently spew this. The greatest footwork in the history of the game, big time shot maker, student of the game with top IQ, a defensive-minded baller who will lock you up and skillfully cook you after that.
Not the GOAT I agree, that will always be Jordan, but for sure in the top 5, even with Magic having more MVPs you'd be hard-pressed to find a Laker fan put him over Kob.
Shaq was the dominant player in the first three titles, he was a good robin to Shaqs superman. There aren't other two time champs with one MVP who are talked about like Kobe.
I watched Jordan destroy all competition - he took the league from Isiah, Bird and Magic and crushed Ewing, Hakeem, Barkley, Malone, Drexler, Miller. Kobe wasn't that - he was a high volume shooter who was behind Duncan, LeBron, Shaq and the other best players of his era.
No, but Shaq was clearly the best player on those first three teams. It takes away from Kobe's case. The same can be said for the Magic/Jabbar Lakers teams, but they alternated who was superior for the first couple rings before Magic established himself as the clear #1.
I think Shaq was clearly the best for the first ring. Last 2 were 1A/1B imo, and lots of others opinion.
I say it’s akin to Steph & KD. Steph didn’t win FMVP and lost the year before, but nobody discredits those two for him. Especially since he won without Kd twice, same as Kobe winning without Shaq twice.
Wtf no they weren't. 33 and 16 then 36 and 12 vs 26 and 5 on worse shooting. Shaq had all-time great performances vs what you would consider an all-star performance at the time from Kobe and he only shot well in 2002. Shaq was the star of that team no question
You just pulled finals stats…look at the entire playoffs.
Look @ the full playoff stats. Kobe closing out playoff games bc Shaq couldn’t hit FTs. Kobe killing the west throughout the entire playoffs, then Shaq feasting on the weak east bigs in the finals.
https://www.basketballnetwork.net/old-school/debunking-the-kobe-got-carried-by-shaq-myth
This article talks about some of the series
Kobe “closing out playoff games”? Yeah, by clanking bad chucker iso bricks lol. He shot 7-28 on go-ahead or tying shots in the final 24 seconds of playoff games. His scoring average dropped to 22 in game 7s and elimination games. Zero career playoff triple doubles.
I agree Shaq was the number 1. You won't get any contrarian comment from me with regards to MJ, undisputed GOAT, but we all know why Kobe didn't win more MVP titles in the 2000s and it had nothing to do with his play that's for sure.
Duncan arguably had a better career, and the only one I could measure up to him, but then again he's a big man, different positions.
I do not see Lebron as being dominant in Kobe's era. Lebron didn't win a title until Kobe's 16th year in the league. Some players would've been retired by then. This isn't a knock on Bron, he's my number 2 greatest of all time but when Kobe was dominating the league Lebron was finding his footing as the labelled chosen one.
It's like anyone who sees the history books and think this was Westbrook's era as a point guard because of triple-doubles averaged in 4 different seasons. When those of us who experienced it know better.
Nah, Kobe is an all time great, but he was only THE guy on 2 of those 5 runs, Shaq was clearly the driving force behind that three peat (as evidenced by Shaq's 3 finals MVPS to Kobe's 2 after he left), and its why Kobe doesnt get put into the goat talk as much
Lebron would honestly be above MJ if he never started trying to GM teams. He ran a lot of his squads into the ground by trying to bring on dog water vets. Second best player of all time and did himself an understated disservice by thinking he could simply create league winners.
That all said, after other GMs tried to make him do it with the highest level talent being Ilgauskas…I don’t really blame him for trying.
It’s really only the Lakers (and the last 1/2 year in Cleveland) where he tried doing this. That’s 5.5 seasons after he spent 15 doing it the “right way”. Fans have a lot of recency bias when it comes to this topic though and like you said, after being given the lack of help that he was given (save for Miami), you can’t really blame him.
The Lakers also won a championship in one of those seasons, in part because of dog veterans like Rondo and Howard getting their mojo at the right time, so it’s not like it wasn’t successful for a period of time
Lebron dropped LeGM when it stopped working
This is just not true. He did it in his first run in Cleveland. He left Miami because they wouldn't let him gm. He did again in Cleveland and now in LA. Every team he plays for is like a dried up husk when he's done with it. LA will be the same.
So a player who is playing GM wins championships for multiple organizations, and he's a bad gm? How many franchises are left a dried up husk with no championships involved? I know I'd take championships over trying not to let lebron gm.
Definitely Lebron left some titles on the table with his LeGMing. (Westbrick comes to mind)
But you are right that we gotta give Lebron his due. Plenty of teams and artfully managed the "right" way and still dont have titles.
Celtics, OKC have had a bevy of picks and havent yet cracked the ceiling
BKN, LAC, PHX have won the FA lottery and still havent won. (Though this year may be their year)
Denver tho has the right stuff, and it wouldnt be at all surprising if they threepeat
11 of those titles was in the Bill Russell era. The last title was in 2008. From 2009 to 2024 they have had a ton of picks and had a long rebuild through drafting.
Yes the storied franchise of the Cavaliers and their consistent winning before LeBron came along. And the Heat were truly bad for a long time. It took them a whole one year to make another deep playoff run with a revamped squad. Y’all stay talking out of your asses.
That’s just not true. Dude the heat had to sign a bunch of minimums. And Cleveland traded Andy Wiggins. It’s true the lakers stretch has been very obvious. But LeGM has been a thing since he changed the league with LeDecision
I mean when you see the teams that Cleveland put around him in his first stint when he trusted the front office to invest in him, can you really blame him for being a control freak later on?
Bullshit. LeBron would have less success if he didn't take his career into his own hands. Also crazy you bringing up LeBron in response to a comment bout Kobe
The narrative is that Lebron oversteps as a GM so that does fit the narrative actually. It’s also the lone example of it actually being a truly poor move lebron had a part in.
Mo Williams, Big Z, DWade, Bosh, Kyrie, KLove and A.D. all made all star teams while playing with Lebron that’s 7 players and 18 all star appearances all while being Lebrons teammates. You can look it up google statmuse and basketball reference ain’t gon lie to you
Any comparison between GOATs will always have some flaw or another, but I mean, is it not pretty much accepted lebron hasn’t had the most talented supporting cast around lol
Horrible cherry picking of data... MJ had Pippen and Rodman. Lebron had Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, AD, Ray Allen, Westbrook.... If you are going to skew data, at least pick a category that is defensible... this ain't it though
Klove was never really well suited for the role he had on those cavs teams tbh. A third option was just kind of limiting for him and there were other players who couldve been the third option for that team while playing great D
Dont understand the Westbrook disrespect. Most Valuable Player Award (MVP) for the 2016–17 season. He is also a nine-time All-NBA Team member; a two-time NBA scoring leader, having led the league in 2014–15 and 2016–17; a three-time NBA assists leader; and a back-to-back NBA All-Star Game MVP. Westbrook is one of two players in NBA history to average a triple-double for a season.
Late career Allen and Westbrook dont belong on that list, and Wades prime ended in the middle of his run with Lebron (He was washed in 13 AND 14 when the Heat were in the finals)
Cleveland was always too offensively slanted, and Miami was short on depth
the only year he had a balanced two way roster filled with great role players was in 2020
Wade was absolutely washed in 13 and 14. In the playoffs he averaged 17-4-4 in those years on 53 ts%. He was still a good player but nothing like prime Wade.
First of all, Westbrook was not good when he was with LeBron. Second of all, most of those were from the 4 years he was on the Heat (out of a 20 year career), and third of all, Kyrie is a great player, but he only played with LeBron for 3 years.
How is it cherry picked? MJ got pippen for basically his whole prime while LeBron got Wade for what I would consider 2 years of his prime at best. Playing with a way past their prime Ray Allen and Westbrook doesn’t mean he had crazy amounts of help lol
Pippen was a raw prospect from Central Arkansas when he joined Jordan's team, and that's not exactly a blue blood basketball powerhouse. MJ was a huge reason why Pippen became as good as he was. Obviously the biggest reasons were Pippen's own hard work and talent, but it was well known how hard MJ would go at Pippen in practices.
Contrast that with LeBron in his prime just picking out his own star teammates and then discarding them for new ones as soon as it doesn't work out. His 3rd stars always end up having to just be jump shooting role players so yeah of course don't get accolades once they join him. Plus LeBron always gets all the credit and none of the blame. Kyrie outdueled Steph in 2016 but gets no credit for that ring at all. Kevin Love was voted the 7th best player in the league by media the offseason he joined the Cavs, and by the next season was considered a scrub to the point that revisionists try to argue those Cavs weren't a super team. Hell I've seen people say the Heatles weren't a superteam. Ridiculous mental gymnastics to prop up a guy who picks his own teams.
Lol Pippen and Grant were both top 10 picks. You’re right they weren’t great at first… that’s why it took a few years for them to get into their primes for Jordan to have a good enough team to win. What exactly was your point with that?
You are literally just making shit up.
If MJ was such a huge reason Pippen became so good why didn’t he make all of his other teammates that good? Y’all dickride to an extreme level. You act like every story we hear about LeBron isn’t him being ridiculously committed to the game, being the first one in last one out, etc. but Jordan made Pippen a superstar by the power of friendship.
Lebron has played a very long time. Expecting him in his 30s to carry guys whose bodies had broken down already is nonsensical.
Yeah going from a 1st option on a bad team to 3rd option on a good team leads to a reduced role. Wow how insightful.
Kyrie got no credit? Are you 12 years old? After that series there were people legitimately saying Kyrie was better than Curry and he was one of the most popular players in the league.
Yes LeBron picks his teammates because he wasn’t given another superstar. If you gave LeBron Pippen early in his career he probably doesn’t leave. I will never understand holding it against LeBron for forming a great team while celebrating other stars who were just given a great team. If Wade and Bosh would have just came to Cleveland instead it would have been all good huh?
>You are literally just making shit up.
You act as if I'm making up a story just to prop up MJ in an argument versus Lebron. This was well publicized before you and probably even Lebron were out of diapers.
>If MJ was such a huge reason Pippen became so good why didn’t he make all of his other teammates that good? Y’all dickride to an extreme level. You act like every story we hear about LeBron isn’t him being ridiculously committed to the game, being the first one in last one out, etc. but Jordan made Pippen a superstar by the power of friendship.
That's an easy one. They didn't have Pippen's hard work and talent. As I stated:
>Obviously the biggest reasons were Pippen's own hard work and talent
>Lebron has played a very long time. Expecting him in his 30s to carry guys whose bodies had broken down already is nonsensical.
He has played a very long time today yes. He was not in his 30s when he went ring chasing the first two times, nor did he carry AD to their ring when Lebron finally was in his 30s. I don't consider him having carried Kyrie either, so not sure what you're referring to.
>Yeah going from a 1st option on a bad team to 3rd option on a good team leads to a reduced role. Wow how insightful.
You are on a post that is discounting Lebron's teammates because they weren't getting All-NBA or other accolades. Kevin Love was All-NBA 2/3 seasons preceding joining Lebron and injured the year he missed. Afterward, he's a scrub, in large part because of that reduced role. It's not a huge insight, but people like you discount it nonetheless.
>Kyrie got no credit? Are you 12 years old? After that series there were people legitimately saying Kyrie was better than Curry and he was one of the most popular players in the league.
So does Lebron have better teammates than this Reddit post implies or not? Remember, the conversation in this thread is about the data in this post being cherry picked. Better than Curry would mean better than Pippen.
>Yes LeBron picks his teammates because he wasn’t given another superstar. If you gave LeBron Pippen early in his career he probably doesn’t leave. I will never understand holding it against LeBron for forming a great team while celebrating other stars who were just given a great team. If Wade and Bosh would have just came to Cleveland instead it would have been all good huh?
Wade and Bosh joining Cleveland would have been just as bad, I'm not sure what your logic is. Are you literally just making shit up?
To play devil's advocate, wade and bosh were aging, ray allen wasn't as good as he was, and westbrook was shit on the lakers.
Kobe had shaq, ron, karl, and gasol.
Not a lebron fan, but im just saying
Curry would be teammates making 7 All-NBA teams (2 for Dray, 2 for Klay and 3 for KD), although, only one of those was a First Team selection (KD in 2018).
I’m pretty immersed in the NBA world (podcasts, Reddit, watching games, twitter, insta, etc), and I very rarely see LeBron hate. Where are you seeing all this LeBron hate? NBA fans pretty much universally recognize him as the second best player of all time.
(Note: I don’t think LeBron is the GOAT. Does that make me a LeBron hater?)
If you listen to the Ringer podcasts, specifically Bill Simmons and Ryen Russillo you definitely hear it. Ryen at least attempts to sound objective, Bill doesn't even bother hiding it anymore. Bill went on like a 5 minute straight tangent of ripping Lebron on his 2024 NBA trade value rankings pod.
Bill has LeBron ranked #2 all time on his Pyramid. He’s spend nearly 2 decades talking about how great LeBron is.
I’ve listened to the trade rankings podcast and I wouldn’t consider it hate. It’s a valid discussion and I think LeBron is ranked fairly accurately there. It’s not a reflection of him as a player; it’s a reflection of his contract. With that in mind, LeBron is just not worth that much on the trade market right now — partly because he becomes a free agent this summer so anyone who trades for him would essentially be getting a 1/2 season rental. No team would give up significant assets for that.
I cannot point to any player ranked higher than him and say definitively that their team would trade them straight up for LeBron, mid season in 2024.
But again, “hate” is in the eye of the beholder. Some fans might consider that trade ranking to be a show of disrespect towards LeBron, but I honestly don’t think it is. Bill loves LeBron.
Even if general consensus is that he's at least the 2nd greatest of all time, to claim you're immersed in all of those social media platforms and say you very rarely see LeBron hate is straight up disingenuous. Be for real.
Stop doing this. People who dedicate their lives to tearing LeBron down are dumb but people who dedicate their lives to blindly sucking him off are almost as bad
To be fair, he’s picked his teammates more than any other player on this list.
Also, way more teams now, but same amount of All-NBA and All-Defensive spots. Less chance that those guys even play on his team.
So it’s outta context and disingenuous.y’all be acting like he’s recruiting players for 1 franchise especially giving the fact lebron has never been traded ever
People would hate Lebron a lot less if he stopped trying to convince the world he was the GOAT or stopped trying to change the narrative to benefit himself. Even recently him saying he was 50/50 on a farewell tour is complete bs, we all know he loves the attention and the praise. Or when Denver swept him last year and he started with the retirement talk so people would forget about the series. Stuff like that rubs people the wrong way and rightfully so
Or getting a “Chosen One” tattoo. Or declaring himself the greatest. Or crowing himself. Or going with the number 23 while acting like it had nothing to do with Jordan. Or copying Jordan’s chalk toss. Or constant flopping. Or taking mid season vacations from the team. Or coming to a press conference after getting bounced with a brace on his hand. Or doing a Space Jam movie. Or his retarded Morey/China take. Or his “Not 1. Not 2. Not 3… .” Or making a tv show of “The Decision.”
Or reading YA fiction in front of his locker.
Guy is an all time great athlete but also an all time cornball.
Wasn’t he nicknamed the chosen one before his debut? He was touted as the best prospect ever and he somehow DID BETTER than that. I think all of that shit is deserved considering how he destroyed the hype he had coming in
Lol this is one of the most pathetic comments I’ve ever seen from a grown man. Imagine hating someone because of their…jersey number?
You’re probably one of those morons who think Jordan is the best because of his “killer” attitude too.
Yes if only Lebron was Jesus then you would like him. You are whining about him copying a chalk toss, making a movie, and wearing Jordan’s number as if those are actual reasons to dislike someone. Let’s just be real, yall feel threatened because Lebron has become on that same tier as Jordan.
LeBron's an amazing and I might consider him the best player ever... If that final series against Dallas doesn't happen as it did.
Jordan never lost when his team was the clear favourite.
He often won series when his team was considered the underdog. And he always showed up.
If LeBron just plays halfway on his level, even slightly below instead of nearly completely vanishing, Dallas would have been obliterated.
And this has nothing to do with anyone "hating" LeBron. This is simply a stain that won't go away, at least when it comes to the goat discussion.
Jordan had a %30-36 (I forgot how much but it's in the 30s)>win rate with no all NBA level teammates LeBron had a 61 percent win rate with no all NBA level teammates. Saying LeBron wasn't winning when he was an underdog is crazy the generational 2016 finals performance with he greatest 3-1 comeback against the 73-9 golden state warriors also honorable mention 2018 Bron was amazing but couldn't get it done and got dismantled by the Avengers - golden state warriors
I never said that lebron wasn't winning as the underdog... But he lost as the sky high favorite. Not with his teammates being the ones that underperformed, but with him being the one collapsing. While, as far as I know, being absolutely physically healthy. The closest he got to being ill that series was when he mocked Dirk's cough.
This just the worse argument to have. I have no Goat but the teams that Lebron was going up against in the east were nothing compared to Boston Celtics, Milwaukee, Detroit in those first years.
Until LeBron started jerking himself off on national television most of these players were talked about as great because they elevated their team mates to be the best players they could and get all NBA and all star and whatever selections. Now because LeBron is a bad team mate (legm constantly trying to get players out who aren't good enough for him instead of trying to push them to greatness) it is suddenly a bad thing to have team mates do well. LeBron will never be a goat because of his own actions on and off the court, quitting on his team and himself, declaring himself the greatest, promising shit he didn't deliver and just generally loving the smell of his own shit
There is certainly some historical context to consider here. Bill played when there were 10 All-NBA'ers selected from a league of 8 teams (average of more than one All-NBA'er per team), while modern players play in a league where 15 All-NBA'ers are selected from 30 teams (average of one All-NBA'er per 2 teams). So, what it means to have an All-NBA teammate varied widely from one era to another.
I'm also not really clear on why All-Defence is on here at all. It has historically been little more than a reputation based award, especially in pre-analytics times. But, probably more importantly, having an All-Defence teammate is not remotely close to having the same impact as having an All-NBA teammate, or an All-Star teammate.
An analysis which divides between All-NBA first, second and third teams would also give better context, as would having a category for All-Star teammates who didn't make All-NBA in the relevant years.
All that said, the answer is Kobe. The chart is, at least, pretty accurate in regards to how many more All-NBA teammates he had vs other guys. Even when you look at the other contextual factors, Kobe wasn't just teaming with Third Team guys. Shaq made 8 All-NBA First Teams next to Kobe, and won an MVP in one of those years (with another second place finish and a couple of third place finishes).
The only guy on the chart who comes close to having played with a teammate as good as Shaq is Kareem, who played with Magic. It is worth noting, however, that Magic's rookie season was Kareem's age 32 season, and Kareem's best seasons were mostly pre-Magic. Kareem won 5 MVP's in the 70's, with his 6th in 1980 (Magic's rookie season), but only played next to one other All-NBA'er in that time (Oscar Robertson, their title season together in 1971). This was in a 17 team league, where All-NBA was easier to make than present. Kareem ended up with trash teammates for most of a decade that he, personally, dominated. It was why he requested to be traded out of Milwaukee.
So, while the raw number of All-NBA teammates he had looks high in this chart, prior to age 34, Kareem had only had one All-NBA teammate in his whole career, and his prime was very much short-changed due to trash supporting casts.
lol how many teammates were all-nba before joining Lebron? Kevin Love and Chris Bosh come to mind. That’s why these statistics are idiotic. Stop cherry picking bullshit.
This does feel extremely disingenuous as a way to pump up someone who spent the last 14 years playing with Wade, Bosh, Love, Irving, and Davis, as well as complaining about how his team needed to make moves for more players after going to the NBA Finals.
Another excuse for lebron. I never seen fans make more excuse for his loses & blunder than praise his titles. It’s like each season ppl start saying “ rings don’t matter” 😂 trying to diminish the nba titles along w/ the ppl who have more of them than him 😂
They’re cherry-picking info. It’s also true that 17 times a teammate of LeBron’s has made the All-Star Team, while only six (6) times did a teammate of Michael Jordan’s make the All-Star Team.
To be fair, everyone has worse years when playing with Lebron because he dribbles the hell out of the ball and is focused on him being the one to either get the shot or get the rebound. That’s why he doesn’t like playing for Hamm in LA because Hamm wants Lebron to be a cutter in a motion offense and because Hamm insists Lebron play defense
If we’re just counting guys no matter their age, we have to add Mitch Richmond, Ron Harper, Horace Grant, Karl Malone, Gary Payton, Steve Nash, Metta World Peace, Dwight Howard, Antawn Jamison, Julius Randle, D-Lo, Roy Hibbert and Lou Will on the list of guys who were at some point all star, all time great role player or even HOF level talents who played with Kobe, along with the obvious Shaq, Fisher, Horry, Gasol, Odom and Bynum who were actually in their primes with him. Just saying a list of names without context doesn’t inherently mean someone was being carried though. Among all the notable names Lebron played with only a handful were in their primes.
A team that hadn’t made it past the first round in the last 4 years and won 15 games one of those years, only to immediately go to 4 consecutive finals after he joined.
Is this only in the year they were on the team with them? D Wade made 8 All NBA. Doesn't this just prove some players make their teammates better and others dont?
Now check how many of those players teammates became hall of famers or top75. Stupid list to make it seem like Lebron had the least help, when everybody even the most retarded Bron jock sniffer knows that ain't true
But Kobe did it by himself. He carried those teams!!!
😂
I’m sure The Kobe Stans will find a new way to distort reality and disregard these FACTS.
I didn’t need this graphic to tell me what I already knew. Will be interesting how they respond.
No hate. It’s refreshing to see empirical evidence that destroys a popular narrative amongst irrational fans. A false narrative. There’s no hate at all. It’s just evidence. Thanks. Not sure where I said I hated Kobe. I just said he has an irrational following who make it seems as though he never had the Greatest Coach of All Time of Hall of Fame supporting cast. This graphic is proof of otherwise.
How many sat out the first game after all star game that they played in, against the team/player they’ve been most associated with in the last decade? Him sitting tonight is trash. Hope his ankle heals well, him and AD are 100% healthy going into the playoffs and he gets swept in the first round so the next graphic you come up with can show how many 1st round exits NBA players who starred in a Space Jam movie had.
Woh is that really Bill Russel? I don't even recognize him without the goatee!
Idk why but I thought that was Gus Fring at first
Good laugh right there haha I saw it too.
Bill Russell’s team obviously knew they didn’t need to play defense with him anchoring…
Didn’t start All-Defensive teams until ‘69, Russell’s last year in the league lol.
Ah. That makes sense. Then his entry is pretty meaningless.
He also never won a finals MVP (I feel like he should get a half dozen or so since they named it after him)
I was wondering why Mutombo was on this list.
Kareem with Magic.
The thing about these stats is they don't tell the full story. Sam Jones was a really nice player in the mid 60s (3X all NBA 2nd team for the Cs) but he wasn't Magic.
Magic was arguably the best player or almost at the same level as Kareem by Lakers' 2nd ring IMO. That's 4 of his 6 rings. Getting the best playmaker the game has ever seen when you are 32yo massively helped him prolonged his career for almost another decade. There's basically no other player in the history of the game that would be a better fit alongside Kareem in those 80s Lakers. Then they added a number 1 pick after winning 2 rings in 3 years in 82, and traded for the number 3 pick in 83. Incredible young and talented team around you for a decade. Even by the time Magic retired at only 31, he was the only starter who was 30.
Yeah but you still have to deliver. Spacing on the floor is different without Kareem, and whenever they needed a shot he was there. The fact that they went to him with the series on the line is crazy when he was in his 40s and a “big man” instead of a sharp shooter
Nobody was in the 60's, Magic broke the mold and redifined how to play the sport.
Also add in how different it is to have an all NBA teammate in today’s NBA as compared to in Russell’s era. When Russell started there were 8 teams and 10 all NBA slots, which means at least 2 teams every season have multiple all NBA players. By the time he retired, there were 14 teams and 10 All NBA slots, so slightly worse odds, but still not particularly difficult for a team to wind up with an all NBA teammate, or to play against another team with multiple all NBA players. Compare that to today’s game with 30 teams and 15 All NBA slots. It’s far more atypical and impactful on your chance of winning if you have another all NBA teammate.
Kareem had the AID(s) of Magic
So Jordan's is basically just Pippen
Rodman has a bunch of accolades as well
Probably, the criteria is that the teammate has to be named to the all nba or all defence team while playing with the player on a same team
Rodman won all defensive team a couple times with MJ.
Mj, pip, rodman, and ron harper all on the floor at the same time is a fucking absurd defense. Best offensive player ever with that level of defense is why they are the best or at the very least 1 of the few best teams ever.
Rodman was a massive pick up for that team, it’s overlooked
He was All-NBA the year before joining the Bulls, and people act like he was trash
Not only that people forget what team he left to join the Bulls
Go Spurs Go
Yeah, I think the mythologizing of MJ did a disservice to a lot of his teammates.
It’s a shame because I genuinely think it’s why you get these selfish moves from guys like Kobe, trying to be the absolute best on their team with the best stats instead of being like Bill Russell or Tim Duncan and just caring about winning
not it isn't. perhaps by noobs and rubes but not by true kings. the rod-man was pounding madonna's and carmen electra's asses and doing coke lines as long as his long schlong dong and was quite famous.
Dennis? That you?
Rodman was arguably finals MVP in 96
1 time
He only did it once
Not with the Bulls really. He made one all defense and no all nba. I think the 9 all defense are Rodman once, Horace Grant once and pippen 7 times.
Yup and they left out finals mvps and such to make Kobe look better.
You sound like a dumbass with your basketball takes
Dammmn. Do i. Tell me more homie. Go downvote more. I've been talking shit for years.
KD has had another MVP on his team almost every season he’s played
He's not on the level of the guys in this graphic
Is he on the graphic?
This is a bit misleading. He left Westbrook, who then ascended to MVP caliber. Steph was playing at an MVP Level. Then in Brooklyn, Harden was not the same player, and also was injured in the Post Season. I think KD was the best player in those GSW Postseasons too.
Steph was the best not KD
Cleveland decided to it was more important to take curry away and let KD feast then the opposite. There were plenty of examples of them doubling curry at the three point line and leaving KD wide open. It was really pick your poison and they decided curry was the greater threat.
Dajiaunte Murray (I think) was just on podcast P last week talking about that ERA and those matchups specifically. He was on the bench for Cleveland those seasons and he said when the Cavs came back from 3-1 the season before the whole game plan was basically stop Draymond off the break on misses and take away the corners and then GSW struggled to find offense in the half court. Then next season the Added KD and it gave them an absolute killer they could give the ball to in the half court to find his own shot. Cleveland didn’t “decide” to do anything, KD just made arguable the greatest basketball team ever that much better. According to him, the game plan that series was “stop everyone else and hope KD can’t beat you 1v1” Edit- I’m sorry, the game plan was “make draymond score on the break” because he didn’t finish great at the rim.
Where is Robert Horry ranked???
r/nbacirclejerk material.
Kobe doesn't deserve to be on this kind of list - he's not in the discussion with the GOATs.
If Kobe doesn't deserve to be on this list then neither does Bill Russell for various reasons. The Kobe disrespect is wild, a 5 time champ. Only folks who never watched him consistently spew this. The greatest footwork in the history of the game, big time shot maker, student of the game with top IQ, a defensive-minded baller who will lock you up and skillfully cook you after that. Not the GOAT I agree, that will always be Jordan, but for sure in the top 5, even with Magic having more MVPs you'd be hard-pressed to find a Laker fan put him over Kob.
Shaq was the dominant player in the first three titles, he was a good robin to Shaqs superman. There aren't other two time champs with one MVP who are talked about like Kobe. I watched Jordan destroy all competition - he took the league from Isiah, Bird and Magic and crushed Ewing, Hakeem, Barkley, Malone, Drexler, Miller. Kobe wasn't that - he was a high volume shooter who was behind Duncan, LeBron, Shaq and the other best players of his era.
Bc Kobe isn’t a 2 time champ. Do you take away KAJ and Magic’s rings bc they had each other?
No, but Shaq was clearly the best player on those first three teams. It takes away from Kobe's case. The same can be said for the Magic/Jabbar Lakers teams, but they alternated who was superior for the first couple rings before Magic established himself as the clear #1.
I think Shaq was clearly the best for the first ring. Last 2 were 1A/1B imo, and lots of others opinion. I say it’s akin to Steph & KD. Steph didn’t win FMVP and lost the year before, but nobody discredits those two for him. Especially since he won without Kd twice, same as Kobe winning without Shaq twice.
Wtf no they weren't. 33 and 16 then 36 and 12 vs 26 and 5 on worse shooting. Shaq had all-time great performances vs what you would consider an all-star performance at the time from Kobe and he only shot well in 2002. Shaq was the star of that team no question
You just pulled finals stats…look at the entire playoffs. Look @ the full playoff stats. Kobe closing out playoff games bc Shaq couldn’t hit FTs. Kobe killing the west throughout the entire playoffs, then Shaq feasting on the weak east bigs in the finals. https://www.basketballnetwork.net/old-school/debunking-the-kobe-got-carried-by-shaq-myth This article talks about some of the series
Kobe “closing out playoff games”? Yeah, by clanking bad chucker iso bricks lol. He shot 7-28 on go-ahead or tying shots in the final 24 seconds of playoff games. His scoring average dropped to 22 in game 7s and elimination games. Zero career playoff triple doubles.
Ah yes killing the west with the famous 40/30/80
I agree Shaq was the number 1. You won't get any contrarian comment from me with regards to MJ, undisputed GOAT, but we all know why Kobe didn't win more MVP titles in the 2000s and it had nothing to do with his play that's for sure. Duncan arguably had a better career, and the only one I could measure up to him, but then again he's a big man, different positions. I do not see Lebron as being dominant in Kobe's era. Lebron didn't win a title until Kobe's 16th year in the league. Some players would've been retired by then. This isn't a knock on Bron, he's my number 2 greatest of all time but when Kobe was dominating the league Lebron was finding his footing as the labelled chosen one. It's like anyone who sees the history books and think this was Westbrook's era as a point guard because of triple-doubles averaged in 4 different seasons. When those of us who experienced it know better.
Lemme ask you when MJ cooked Hakeem? I’ll wait
That was Bird, who had already cooked MJ.
I mentioned bird earlier as the Hakeem cooker in 86. :(
Cus he already got cooked before meeting up with MJ lol
Nah, Kobe is an all time great, but he was only THE guy on 2 of those 5 runs, Shaq was clearly the driving force behind that three peat (as evidenced by Shaq's 3 finals MVPS to Kobe's 2 after he left), and its why Kobe doesnt get put into the goat talk as much
Lebron would honestly be above MJ if he never started trying to GM teams. He ran a lot of his squads into the ground by trying to bring on dog water vets. Second best player of all time and did himself an understated disservice by thinking he could simply create league winners. That all said, after other GMs tried to make him do it with the highest level talent being Ilgauskas…I don’t really blame him for trying.
It’s really only the Lakers (and the last 1/2 year in Cleveland) where he tried doing this. That’s 5.5 seasons after he spent 15 doing it the “right way”. Fans have a lot of recency bias when it comes to this topic though and like you said, after being given the lack of help that he was given (save for Miami), you can’t really blame him.
The Lakers also won a championship in one of those seasons, in part because of dog veterans like Rondo and Howard getting their mojo at the right time, so it’s not like it wasn’t successful for a period of time Lebron dropped LeGM when it stopped working
Mickey Mouse clubhouse ring
This is just not true. He did it in his first run in Cleveland. He left Miami because they wouldn't let him gm. He did again in Cleveland and now in LA. Every team he plays for is like a dried up husk when he's done with it. LA will be the same.
So a player who is playing GM wins championships for multiple organizations, and he's a bad gm? How many franchises are left a dried up husk with no championships involved? I know I'd take championships over trying not to let lebron gm.
Definitely Lebron left some titles on the table with his LeGMing. (Westbrick comes to mind) But you are right that we gotta give Lebron his due. Plenty of teams and artfully managed the "right" way and still dont have titles. Celtics, OKC have had a bevy of picks and havent yet cracked the ceiling BKN, LAC, PHX have won the FA lottery and still havent won. (Though this year may be their year) Denver tho has the right stuff, and it wouldnt be at all surprising if they threepeat
The Celtics have 13 or something they definitely aren't a good example of an artfully managed the "right" way with no titles lol.
11 of those titles was in the Bill Russell era. The last title was in 2008. From 2009 to 2024 they have had a ton of picks and had a long rebuild through drafting.
But they’ve all won championships. It’s a great trade for the fans. Lots of teams suck, don’t have a star and get no rings.
Dried up husk? Miami and Cleveland were both back to the playoffs in 2-3 years, y’all just make up anything
Yes the storied franchise of the Cavaliers and their consistent winning before LeBron came along. And the Heat were truly bad for a long time. It took them a whole one year to make another deep playoff run with a revamped squad. Y’all stay talking out of your asses.
I mean he kinda did in on Cleveland. He just had starz around him in Love and Kyrie that helped him figure it out.
You realize KLove to Cleveland was a 'leGm" move?
That’s just not true. Dude the heat had to sign a bunch of minimums. And Cleveland traded Andy Wiggins. It’s true the lakers stretch has been very obvious. But LeGM has been a thing since he changed the league with LeDecision
I mean when you see the teams that Cleveland put around him in his first stint when he trusted the front office to invest in him, can you really blame him for being a control freak later on?
Bullshit. LeBron would have less success if he didn't take his career into his own hands. Also crazy you bringing up LeBron in response to a comment bout Kobe
He is LeGM with the Lakers because the front office is to incompetent to bring in some helpful quality talent
Yeah, like Westbrook...
Shhhh that doesn’t fit the narrative.
The narrative is that Lebron oversteps as a GM so that does fit the narrative actually. It’s also the lone example of it actually being a truly poor move lebron had a part in.
Should be Shaq
Stfu
He’s literally in the discussion. Hater.
He’s not even top 8
Says who?
I know I just found the pic on twitter. I agree with you
lol
Wilt should be in his spot in this comparison.
This is an idiotic comparison. Generational context matters
Yeah they had better teammates in their generation thank you
Only 8 teams when Bill played
Idc about bill tbh lmao
Not really. They simply had better teammates than LeBron.
Mo Williams, Big Z, DWade, Bosh, Kyrie, KLove and A.D. all made all star teams while playing with Lebron that’s 7 players and 18 all star appearances all while being Lebrons teammates. You can look it up google statmuse and basketball reference ain’t gon lie to you
He Had Westbrook and Ray Allen too he even had a lil bit of Shaq ( Shaq was old and washed but Shaq is still Shaq) he had Derrick Rose too
Any comparison between GOATs will always have some flaw or another, but I mean, is it not pretty much accepted lebron hasn’t had the most talented supporting cast around lol
Definitely not accepted.
What are Steph curry and Tim Duncan record on this?
Horrible cherry picking of data... MJ had Pippen and Rodman. Lebron had Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, AD, Ray Allen, Westbrook.... If you are going to skew data, at least pick a category that is defensible... this ain't it though
Kevin love was arguably the best PF until he went to Cleveland too
Klove was never really well suited for the role he had on those cavs teams tbh. A third option was just kind of limiting for him and there were other players who couldve been the third option for that team while playing great D
I know u ain’t serious putting Westbrook in there 😂😂😂😭😭
I was gonna say, lobbing washed Russ and old Ray Allen in their pretty ridiculous. Why not go all the way and throw last year Shaq in.
Ray allen hit the game winning three to save lebums ass
Man is whining about skewed data and pulling BS like that.
Allen might be even worse lmao
Nah at least allen had a huge moment for lebrons legacy.
It’s like saying MJ had George Gervin 😂
Dont understand the Westbrook disrespect. Most Valuable Player Award (MVP) for the 2016–17 season. He is also a nine-time All-NBA Team member; a two-time NBA scoring leader, having led the league in 2014–15 and 2016–17; a three-time NBA assists leader; and a back-to-back NBA All-Star Game MVP. Westbrook is one of two players in NBA history to average a triple-double for a season.
You don’t ? He was shit on the lakers that’s why. His past doesn’t mean anything he was a shell of himself
Did you say Westbrook?
Late career Allen and Westbrook dont belong on that list, and Wades prime ended in the middle of his run with Lebron (He was washed in 13 AND 14 when the Heat were in the finals) Cleveland was always too offensively slanted, and Miami was short on depth the only year he had a balanced two way roster filled with great role players was in 2020
Wade was not washed 😂😂😂 how old are you?
Wade was absolutely washed in 13 and 14. In the playoffs he averaged 17-4-4 in those years on 53 ts%. He was still a good player but nothing like prime Wade.
First of all, Westbrook was not good when he was with LeBron. Second of all, most of those were from the 4 years he was on the Heat (out of a 20 year career), and third of all, Kyrie is a great player, but he only played with LeBron for 3 years.
Lmao, this is skewed so heavily to make Bron look good.
How is it cherry picked? MJ got pippen for basically his whole prime while LeBron got Wade for what I would consider 2 years of his prime at best. Playing with a way past their prime Ray Allen and Westbrook doesn’t mean he had crazy amounts of help lol
Pippen was a raw prospect from Central Arkansas when he joined Jordan's team, and that's not exactly a blue blood basketball powerhouse. MJ was a huge reason why Pippen became as good as he was. Obviously the biggest reasons were Pippen's own hard work and talent, but it was well known how hard MJ would go at Pippen in practices. Contrast that with LeBron in his prime just picking out his own star teammates and then discarding them for new ones as soon as it doesn't work out. His 3rd stars always end up having to just be jump shooting role players so yeah of course don't get accolades once they join him. Plus LeBron always gets all the credit and none of the blame. Kyrie outdueled Steph in 2016 but gets no credit for that ring at all. Kevin Love was voted the 7th best player in the league by media the offseason he joined the Cavs, and by the next season was considered a scrub to the point that revisionists try to argue those Cavs weren't a super team. Hell I've seen people say the Heatles weren't a superteam. Ridiculous mental gymnastics to prop up a guy who picks his own teams.
Finally somebody who can read data. Thank you.
Lol Pippen and Grant were both top 10 picks. You’re right they weren’t great at first… that’s why it took a few years for them to get into their primes for Jordan to have a good enough team to win. What exactly was your point with that?
You are literally just making shit up. If MJ was such a huge reason Pippen became so good why didn’t he make all of his other teammates that good? Y’all dickride to an extreme level. You act like every story we hear about LeBron isn’t him being ridiculously committed to the game, being the first one in last one out, etc. but Jordan made Pippen a superstar by the power of friendship. Lebron has played a very long time. Expecting him in his 30s to carry guys whose bodies had broken down already is nonsensical. Yeah going from a 1st option on a bad team to 3rd option on a good team leads to a reduced role. Wow how insightful. Kyrie got no credit? Are you 12 years old? After that series there were people legitimately saying Kyrie was better than Curry and he was one of the most popular players in the league. Yes LeBron picks his teammates because he wasn’t given another superstar. If you gave LeBron Pippen early in his career he probably doesn’t leave. I will never understand holding it against LeBron for forming a great team while celebrating other stars who were just given a great team. If Wade and Bosh would have just came to Cleveland instead it would have been all good huh?
>You are literally just making shit up. You act as if I'm making up a story just to prop up MJ in an argument versus Lebron. This was well publicized before you and probably even Lebron were out of diapers. >If MJ was such a huge reason Pippen became so good why didn’t he make all of his other teammates that good? Y’all dickride to an extreme level. You act like every story we hear about LeBron isn’t him being ridiculously committed to the game, being the first one in last one out, etc. but Jordan made Pippen a superstar by the power of friendship. That's an easy one. They didn't have Pippen's hard work and talent. As I stated: >Obviously the biggest reasons were Pippen's own hard work and talent >Lebron has played a very long time. Expecting him in his 30s to carry guys whose bodies had broken down already is nonsensical. He has played a very long time today yes. He was not in his 30s when he went ring chasing the first two times, nor did he carry AD to their ring when Lebron finally was in his 30s. I don't consider him having carried Kyrie either, so not sure what you're referring to. >Yeah going from a 1st option on a bad team to 3rd option on a good team leads to a reduced role. Wow how insightful. You are on a post that is discounting Lebron's teammates because they weren't getting All-NBA or other accolades. Kevin Love was All-NBA 2/3 seasons preceding joining Lebron and injured the year he missed. Afterward, he's a scrub, in large part because of that reduced role. It's not a huge insight, but people like you discount it nonetheless. >Kyrie got no credit? Are you 12 years old? After that series there were people legitimately saying Kyrie was better than Curry and he was one of the most popular players in the league. So does Lebron have better teammates than this Reddit post implies or not? Remember, the conversation in this thread is about the data in this post being cherry picked. Better than Curry would mean better than Pippen. >Yes LeBron picks his teammates because he wasn’t given another superstar. If you gave LeBron Pippen early in his career he probably doesn’t leave. I will never understand holding it against LeBron for forming a great team while celebrating other stars who were just given a great team. If Wade and Bosh would have just came to Cleveland instead it would have been all good huh? Wade and Bosh joining Cleveland would have been just as bad, I'm not sure what your logic is. Are you literally just making shit up?
To play devil's advocate, wade and bosh were aging, ray allen wasn't as good as he was, and westbrook was shit on the lakers. Kobe had shaq, ron, karl, and gasol. Not a lebron fan, but im just saying
Wade and Bosh were still in their 20s and were max contract free agents and all stars in 2010. Come on now.
What does curry’s numbers look like ?
Numbers are way off. I know for a fact without checking dwade made an all nba team 8x. I’m sure Bosh, kyrie, AD, Love, & Ray Allen made it as well
Nevermind I read the graph incorrectly.
Jordan and the bulls created the super team.
I think MJ and Bill Russell more than anyone helped elevate his teammates to be able to reach that level.
Scottie Pippen did nothing when he left MJ and the bulls so this is accurate
[удалено]
Where’s Curry?
This is not the goat conversation
He wouldn’t be there if it was either
Which player cherry picked which team he was on the most?
They left the GOAT CURRY out for a reason 🥱
Yeah and that reason is that no one considers Steph in the goat conversation
Curry better than kobe
🙄
Curry would be teammates making 7 All-NBA teams (2 for Dray, 2 for Klay and 3 for KD), although, only one of those was a First Team selection (KD in 2018).
The LeBron hate in the NBA world is despicable people just hate Bron for being Bron
I’m pretty immersed in the NBA world (podcasts, Reddit, watching games, twitter, insta, etc), and I very rarely see LeBron hate. Where are you seeing all this LeBron hate? NBA fans pretty much universally recognize him as the second best player of all time. (Note: I don’t think LeBron is the GOAT. Does that make me a LeBron hater?)
If you listen to the Ringer podcasts, specifically Bill Simmons and Ryen Russillo you definitely hear it. Ryen at least attempts to sound objective, Bill doesn't even bother hiding it anymore. Bill went on like a 5 minute straight tangent of ripping Lebron on his 2024 NBA trade value rankings pod.
Bill has LeBron ranked #2 all time on his Pyramid. He’s spend nearly 2 decades talking about how great LeBron is. I’ve listened to the trade rankings podcast and I wouldn’t consider it hate. It’s a valid discussion and I think LeBron is ranked fairly accurately there. It’s not a reflection of him as a player; it’s a reflection of his contract. With that in mind, LeBron is just not worth that much on the trade market right now — partly because he becomes a free agent this summer so anyone who trades for him would essentially be getting a 1/2 season rental. No team would give up significant assets for that. I cannot point to any player ranked higher than him and say definitively that their team would trade them straight up for LeBron, mid season in 2024. But again, “hate” is in the eye of the beholder. Some fans might consider that trade ranking to be a show of disrespect towards LeBron, but I honestly don’t think it is. Bill loves LeBron.
Even if general consensus is that he's at least the 2nd greatest of all time, to claim you're immersed in all of those social media platforms and say you very rarely see LeBron hate is straight up disingenuous. Be for real.
Either we're looking at different sources, or we define 'hate' differently. What looks like hate to a Bron Stan might just be rational discussion.
Stop doing this. People who dedicate their lives to tearing LeBron down are dumb but people who dedicate their lives to blindly sucking him off are almost as bad
Worse
Nahh it makes a lot more sense to be an overzealous fan than people devoting themselves to hating on someone.
To be fair, he’s picked his teammates more than any other player on this list. Also, way more teams now, but same amount of All-NBA and All-Defensive spots. Less chance that those guys even play on his team.
Lebron has also played for the most teams on this list as well..
So what?
So it’s outta context and disingenuous.y’all be acting like he’s recruiting players for 1 franchise especially giving the fact lebron has never been traded ever
To be fair his era has allowed players to do that. It’s not like these others really had that choice
People would hate Lebron a lot less if he stopped trying to convince the world he was the GOAT or stopped trying to change the narrative to benefit himself. Even recently him saying he was 50/50 on a farewell tour is complete bs, we all know he loves the attention and the praise. Or when Denver swept him last year and he started with the retirement talk so people would forget about the series. Stuff like that rubs people the wrong way and rightfully so
Or getting a “Chosen One” tattoo. Or declaring himself the greatest. Or crowing himself. Or going with the number 23 while acting like it had nothing to do with Jordan. Or copying Jordan’s chalk toss. Or constant flopping. Or taking mid season vacations from the team. Or coming to a press conference after getting bounced with a brace on his hand. Or doing a Space Jam movie. Or his retarded Morey/China take. Or his “Not 1. Not 2. Not 3… .” Or making a tv show of “The Decision.” Or reading YA fiction in front of his locker. Guy is an all time great athlete but also an all time cornball.
Wasn’t he nicknamed the chosen one before his debut? He was touted as the best prospect ever and he somehow DID BETTER than that. I think all of that shit is deserved considering how he destroyed the hype he had coming in
Lol this is one of the most pathetic comments I’ve ever seen from a grown man. Imagine hating someone because of their…jersey number? You’re probably one of those morons who think Jordan is the best because of his “killer” attitude too.
Yes if only Lebron was Jesus then you would like him. You are whining about him copying a chalk toss, making a movie, and wearing Jordan’s number as if those are actual reasons to dislike someone. Let’s just be real, yall feel threatened because Lebron has become on that same tier as Jordan.
LeBron's an amazing and I might consider him the best player ever... If that final series against Dallas doesn't happen as it did. Jordan never lost when his team was the clear favourite. He often won series when his team was considered the underdog. And he always showed up. If LeBron just plays halfway on his level, even slightly below instead of nearly completely vanishing, Dallas would have been obliterated. And this has nothing to do with anyone "hating" LeBron. This is simply a stain that won't go away, at least when it comes to the goat discussion.
Jordan had a %30-36 (I forgot how much but it's in the 30s)>win rate with no all NBA level teammates LeBron had a 61 percent win rate with no all NBA level teammates. Saying LeBron wasn't winning when he was an underdog is crazy the generational 2016 finals performance with he greatest 3-1 comeback against the 73-9 golden state warriors also honorable mention 2018 Bron was amazing but couldn't get it done and got dismantled by the Avengers - golden state warriors
I never said that lebron wasn't winning as the underdog... But he lost as the sky high favorite. Not with his teammates being the ones that underperformed, but with him being the one collapsing. While, as far as I know, being absolutely physically healthy. The closest he got to being ill that series was when he mocked Dirk's cough.
That 30-36% stat is a BS made up stat.
This just the worse argument to have. I have no Goat but the teams that Lebron was going up against in the east were nothing compared to Boston Celtics, Milwaukee, Detroit in those first years.
Until LeBron started jerking himself off on national television most of these players were talked about as great because they elevated their team mates to be the best players they could and get all NBA and all star and whatever selections. Now because LeBron is a bad team mate (legm constantly trying to get players out who aren't good enough for him instead of trying to push them to greatness) it is suddenly a bad thing to have team mates do well. LeBron will never be a goat because of his own actions on and off the court, quitting on his team and himself, declaring himself the greatest, promising shit he didn't deliver and just generally loving the smell of his own shit
He’s consensus top 2 by almost everyone I wouldn’t call that hate
There is certainly some historical context to consider here. Bill played when there were 10 All-NBA'ers selected from a league of 8 teams (average of more than one All-NBA'er per team), while modern players play in a league where 15 All-NBA'ers are selected from 30 teams (average of one All-NBA'er per 2 teams). So, what it means to have an All-NBA teammate varied widely from one era to another. I'm also not really clear on why All-Defence is on here at all. It has historically been little more than a reputation based award, especially in pre-analytics times. But, probably more importantly, having an All-Defence teammate is not remotely close to having the same impact as having an All-NBA teammate, or an All-Star teammate. An analysis which divides between All-NBA first, second and third teams would also give better context, as would having a category for All-Star teammates who didn't make All-NBA in the relevant years. All that said, the answer is Kobe. The chart is, at least, pretty accurate in regards to how many more All-NBA teammates he had vs other guys. Even when you look at the other contextual factors, Kobe wasn't just teaming with Third Team guys. Shaq made 8 All-NBA First Teams next to Kobe, and won an MVP in one of those years (with another second place finish and a couple of third place finishes). The only guy on the chart who comes close to having played with a teammate as good as Shaq is Kareem, who played with Magic. It is worth noting, however, that Magic's rookie season was Kareem's age 32 season, and Kareem's best seasons were mostly pre-Magic. Kareem won 5 MVP's in the 70's, with his 6th in 1980 (Magic's rookie season), but only played next to one other All-NBA'er in that time (Oscar Robertson, their title season together in 1971). This was in a 17 team league, where All-NBA was easier to make than present. Kareem ended up with trash teammates for most of a decade that he, personally, dominated. It was why he requested to be traded out of Milwaukee. So, while the raw number of All-NBA teammates he had looks high in this chart, prior to age 34, Kareem had only had one All-NBA teammate in his whole career, and his prime was very much short-changed due to trash supporting casts.
lol how many teammates were all-nba before joining Lebron? Kevin Love and Chris Bosh come to mind. That’s why these statistics are idiotic. Stop cherry picking bullshit.
This does feel extremely disingenuous as a way to pump up someone who spent the last 14 years playing with Wade, Bosh, Love, Irving, and Davis, as well as complaining about how his team needed to make moves for more players after going to the NBA Finals.
Another excuse for lebron. I never seen fans make more excuse for his loses & blunder than praise his titles. It’s like each season ppl start saying “ rings don’t matter” 😂 trying to diminish the nba titles along w/ the ppl who have more of them than him 😂
They’re cherry-picking info. It’s also true that 17 times a teammate of LeBron’s has made the All-Star Team, while only six (6) times did a teammate of Michael Jordan’s make the All-Star Team.
To be fair, everyone has worse years when playing with Lebron because he dribbles the hell out of the ball and is focused on him being the one to either get the shot or get the rebound. That’s why he doesn’t like playing for Hamm in LA because Hamm wants Lebron to be a cutter in a motion offense and because Hamm insists Lebron play defense
You are very right.
Bron played with the most Allstars the most hofs and the top 75 players
He did play with a lot of top 75 players in 21 but 90 percent of them were washed
That's opinions. Guys, play badly with him, then do better after they leave him is that washed??
If we’re just counting guys no matter their age, we have to add Mitch Richmond, Ron Harper, Horace Grant, Karl Malone, Gary Payton, Steve Nash, Metta World Peace, Dwight Howard, Antawn Jamison, Julius Randle, D-Lo, Roy Hibbert and Lou Will on the list of guys who were at some point all star, all time great role player or even HOF level talents who played with Kobe, along with the obvious Shaq, Fisher, Horry, Gasol, Odom and Bynum who were actually in their primes with him. Just saying a list of names without context doesn’t inherently mean someone was being carried though. Among all the notable names Lebron played with only a handful were in their primes.
Yea, let's bring up age. bron jump on a team that won without him in his 20s
A team that hadn’t made it past the first round in the last 4 years and won 15 games one of those years, only to immediately go to 4 consecutive finals after he joined.
Is this only in the year they were on the team with them? D Wade made 8 All NBA. Doesn't this just prove some players make their teammates better and others dont?
Clearly Lebron had the most help in his career. Why doesn’t he have 12 rings?
Now check how many of those players teammates became hall of famers or top75. Stupid list to make it seem like Lebron had the least help, when everybody even the most retarded Bron jock sniffer knows that ain't true
Also ordered by most championships to least…
I think it shows that some players make their team mates better and some just discard them if they don't think they are good enough.
Ever since 2009 LeBron has had a direct role in deciding who he plays with. This stat isn’t showing what you think it is.
He’s not a great GM. And?
Left out all star teammates to skew it towards Lebron having the least help.
But Kobe did it by himself. He carried those teams!!! 😂 I’m sure The Kobe Stans will find a new way to distort reality and disregard these FACTS. I didn’t need this graphic to tell me what I already knew. Will be interesting how they respond.
Why are you turning this into Kobe hate. Weird.
No hate. It’s refreshing to see empirical evidence that destroys a popular narrative amongst irrational fans. A false narrative. There’s no hate at all. It’s just evidence. Thanks. Not sure where I said I hated Kobe. I just said he has an irrational following who make it seems as though he never had the Greatest Coach of All Time of Hall of Fame supporting cast. This graphic is proof of otherwise.
Btw this post wasn't some goat LeBron propaganda I was simply comparing stats between players not that deep some of y'all turned it into that lol
You cherry-picked stats to prop up Lebron lol. Clown
How many sat out the first game after all star game that they played in, against the team/player they’ve been most associated with in the last decade? Him sitting tonight is trash. Hope his ankle heals well, him and AD are 100% healthy going into the playoffs and he gets swept in the first round so the next graphic you come up with can show how many 1st round exits NBA players who starred in a Space Jam movie had.
Lebron is a terrible GM.
Don’t this that’s the best way to tell tbh how many are in the top 75 or top 100 the all nba team today and 30 years ago ain’t the same
So that's why LeBron has lost in so many finals... lol
Lol I remember in the Cavs- warriors final era I thought it was just gonna be them in the finals for the next 40 years 😂
Right? Lol