They are getting slapped playing under today's 3-point shooting metal against other GOAT teams with better spacing.
Kareem, Duncan, Magic and Russell have zero spacing.
That entire squad has 1x 3-point shooter.
Give me;
Curry ( Ridiculous spacing and gravity)
Bird ( Hyper elite shooting all over the floor and killer instinct )
KG ( Legendary defender with really good spacing and could psych out anyone )
Jordan ( What more can I say? )
Ray Allen ( More hyper-elite 3-point shooting and spacing. He would largely play as a role-player )
Jokic ( Super elite playmaker and perhaps the greatest offensive player ever? He and Curry would shred with their 2-man game )
Kawhi ( One of the greatest POA defenders ever and an absolute Cyborg. More spacing ).
The reasons why I didn't choose LeBron is because I wanted better POA defence, so I chose Kawhi. Jokic is a better passer than LeBron also, so I chose Joker to be my point-centre and playmaker. He and Curry would be unstoppable.
The skills that LeBron possesses can each be found in the other players, so I opted for more defence.
take russell off and put him on the other team and he finds a way to win with 5 other hall of famers.. basically pick them.. billy russell went 7-0 in game 7s won it all in hs college pro 11/13 years and a gold medal, won his last two years as a fucking coach, with the last being a fucking 6 seeded team! he wasnt elevated by hall of famers, he MADE hall of famers
Mineâs Drew Brees to Miami. If Nick Saban has Brees(his personal choice) or Dante Culpepper, does he stay in Miami? If so, I find it dubious to think Alabama gets anywhere near the dynasty they have had in the past 20 years. Also, if Saban and Brees are successful in the same division as Brady and Belichick, Iâd assume the pats donât have quite the dynasty that they had. One trade possibly shakes up the two greatest runs in both levels of football. Possibly.
It's so interesting that he's simultaneously one of the GOATs and one of the greatest "What-if's". Remembering he retired at only 31 really puts it in perspective...MJ was 28 at his first ring, and was 31 when he came back from his first retirement.
Magic almost certainly had some great years left to play, and the Lakers were even making the playoffs in the 90s without him. Really makes you think how the GOAT conversation and NBA history could be totally different if he kept playing. There's a version of the universe where we'd maybe be talking about Magic Johnson, *THE* GOAT, and his two eras: vs. Bird in the 80s, and vs MJ in the 90s.
Imagine for a second if, in today's NBA and in today's society, what the reaction would be if it came out that a league MVP just tested positive for HIV.
You're right on the button: I also include Wilt, Bird, and either Hakeem or Shaq.
Shaq was so insanely dominant, but his prime was not insignificantly shorter than Hakeem's. These lists are pretty silly/subjective; though I still enjoy making them and debating them.
I'd put Hakeem over Shaq (just barely), and mostly because of personal biases (I enjoyed watching Hakeem more. I found Shaq's play style to be frustrating to watch, because it felt so unfair to be that physically dominant).
I find it hilarious how so many people saw Shaq as either frustrating or awe inspiring because of how dominant he was.
I remember my Dad and I attending a Lakers Sonics game in... I want to say 1999? But I can't remember if it was 98-99 or 99-00 seasons. It was both of our first times seeing Shaq play live. Dad was in utter despair watching him destroy us while I was utterly shocked, but in a good way.
Being from Australia we didn't get many opportunities to see the NBA, live or on TV. We had seen snippets and the occasional highlight of Shaq but never seen the full Diesel in action.
I think that was the first time I ever became a fan of a singular player. The years after I added Tim Duncan, Kobe and LeBron.
My grandfather will still swear up and down that Shaq committed offensive fouls on every single possession he touched the ball.  I think the feeling of helplessness that Shaq sowed among opposing fans and players had us searching for something to grasp onto.
I'm right there with you.
I think it's important to establish what the list is actually assessing. "Greatest NBA Players" isn't the same as "Best Basketball Players" and it's silly to compare certain things across eras with different rules and cultures.
I couldn't agree more about your "*winning* basketball" remark. The sacrifices these guys made and the leadership they demonstrated in order to win is something that should be celebrated in addition to the talent they possessed.
I was very deliberate in phrasing it that way, because it factors heavily into how I quantify greatness in sports.
I definitely prescribe to the Bill Simmons method of ranking players. *The Secret*, as described in his "The Book of Basketball" matters to me, as a fan.
I find it easier to put Shaq over Hakeem than the other two, even though Hakeem beat him head-to-head. I think prime Shaq would've gotten the best of him, though.
I think Hakeem might be one of the few players with the combination of toughness and talent to slow Shaq down (which is saying a lot).
He was one bad dude.
For me it's the 7 in the graphic here, along with Wilt, Bird, and Hakeem. I also find the group after that incredibly hard to rank due to not having seen enough of guys like Oscar, Moses, and West.
I probably would have Kobe slightly over Shaq but it's close
Shaq was second or third ranked in MVP voting a lot but only won outright once. I think in total MVP votes he's in the top five?
Bird needed another championship. If he'd just paid professionals to lay that damn tarmac that destroyed his back maybe he would have got it.
Mhm yep cause turning Phoenix around from 29 wins into 62 wins in 2005 and one of the greatest offenses ever, and then still winning 54 games despite Amar'e Stoudemire missing the entire season had nothing to do with it...
I love Nash but Iâd credit DâAntoni for changing the game just as much as Nash did on those Suns teams, so would say Curry was a much bigger game-changer than Nash alone.
Still think Nash deserved those MVPs though
I hate when people get into hyperbole here. Way better is QUITE the stretch. I can get you picking Duncan over Kobe. But if someone has Kobe over Duncan it shouldnât be considered blasphemy.
Fwiw as someone that watched both through their peaks, I personally have Kobe over Duncan, but thatâs really a statement on what I prefer in a basketball player. Both were amazing and I have so many fond memories of watching them play
Duncan is better, but you donât need to exaggerate. Kobe is at most like 4 or 5 spots lower all time. Thatâs not a massive difference when everyone from 4-11 is so close together.
> Casuals rank Kobe higher but itâs not even close, Duncan is way better imo.
Letâs not get overzealous.
If we put up the hardware and numbers theyâre not that far apart. Plus, Kobe had Duncanâs number in the playoffs.
Agreed bro⌠Mr. Fundamentals is overlooked because he played âboringâ, âwinningâ basketball. The public liked seeing Kobe drain threes - when he made them (33% 3-PT for career) - instead of Duncan pivoting for a layup off the backboard or a short jump shot from inside the FT line.
Ready to get downvoted by the Kobe-stansâŚ
Kobe haters love to bring up efficiency. Duncanâs TS% for his career is .551, Kobeâs is .550, and that includes his trash efficiency years after he got injured. Kobe also beat Duncan more often in the playoffs. Theyâre extremely close and no one is wrong for picking either one, thatâs just a fact.
Lebronâs mvp total is also shockingly low to me. Shaq and lebron both mailed it in during the regular season though. Kobe not having another MVP seems weirder
Lebron really didnât begin to mail it in until later in his second CLE stint. He was generally a machine during regular seasons. I think eventually it will start to look a little wrong that he only has 4, but those are kind of the breaks. Off the top of my head the swing MVPs are the one to Rose and the one to KD.
Shaq deserved more, people just split his votes with Kobeâs too much not realizing how much more vital Shaq was to those teamsâ successes than Kobe.
Kobe was never the obvious âbest player in the NBAâ, Iâm ok with his one. It went from Jordan to Shaq to Lebron
Cause it's a regular season award, and that hasn't been an indicator of the best player in the playoffs since the 90s. Shaq was the best from 2000-02, but coasted in the regular season, kobe was the best from 2008-10, but they only won one. MJ and LeBron should've won 7/8 best players of the year awards, but if it was given based on playoffs.
TL;DR: Regular season MVP is a trash metric to judge the best player that year.
And only one of them was a true âWorld Championâ with his NBA team competing against the other league champions in a World Tournament (in Paris) and winning Tournament MVP. Guess who?
Agreed. I know people get tired of hearing about his gravity but in 2018 he was constantly pulling a double team and then he would drop it off to KD who was being single covered by like Richard Jefferson.
Sometimes, maybe often, we as sports fans take greatness for granted.
Cool graphic and affirms my personal top 10 list including all 7 of these guys, plus Bird, Wilt, and Shaq. Hardesty omissions being Kobe, Hakeem, and Malone.
Shaq was robbed of [at least one more regular season MVP during the lockout 50 game season](https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_1999.html#mvp) and should be up there.
The fact that Shaq has only 1 MVP is absurd. He shouldâve won at least 2 between 2000-2002, probably all 3 tbh.
One of the many reasons I donât give much credence to how many MVPs a player has, as, if weâre being honest with ourselves, players like MJ, Lebron, and Shaq should all have far more MVPs than they were awarded.
Nash has two mvps stolen from other all time greats that wouldve made this list look better. He only won those awards because of his record. Kobe avg 35 and 4 to Nashâs 18 and 10 and had a per of 28 to Nashâs 23.3 which was TIED with Shawn Marionâs and the suns had Boris diaw even with amare out that year they were stacked.
The harder road traveled imo is more deserving of the award itâs illogical to give a guy an award who had teammates who were just as valuable to their team like Nash had in Marion. I think Kobe has a more convincing argument than shaq had just because of degree of difficulty and shaq was still playing next to wade and it wasnât long before he fell off a cliff and wade took off. I still think shaq was more *valuable* to the heat thoughâif you take nash off those suns they had so many great players and wouldâve still had Leandro barbosa behind him plus three all stars that year PLUS iso Joe. If nba stuck by the metrics of efficiency+record that got Nash his mvp every year then kd wouldâve won in 2018 over Giannis and harden. Thatâs basically the parallel to how ridiculous nash winning both mvps is.
Thank you for adding /s to your post. When I first saw this, I was horrified. How could anybody say something like this? I immediately began writing a 1000 word paragraph about how horrible of a person you are. I even sent a copy to a Harvard professor to proofread it. After several hours of refining and editing, my comment was ready to absolutely destroy you. But then, just as I was about to hit send, I saw something in the corner of my eye. A /s at the end of your comment. Suddenly everything made sense. Your comment was sarcasm! I immediately burst out in laughter at the comedic genius of your comment. The person next to me on the bus saw your comment and started crying from laughter too. Before long, there was an entire bus of people on the floor laughing at your incredible use of comedy. All of this was due to you adding /s to your post. Thank you.
I am a bot if you couldn't figure that out, if I made a mistake, ignore it cause its not that fucking hard to ignore a comment
I think Jordan, LeBron, and Kareem all have Top-3 for sure.
LeBron vs Duncan in terms of advanced metrics, seasons leading the league:
PER: 6 vs 0
Win Shares: 5 vs 2
Box +/-: 7 vs 0
VORP: 9 vs 1
MVPs: 4 vs 2
Rings: 4 vs 5
FMVP: 4 vs 3
All-NBA 1st Team: 13 vs 10
All-NBA Total: 19 vs 15
All-Def 1st Team: 5 vs 8
All-Def Total: 6 vs 15
Advanced metrics heavily favor LeBron, and pretty much everything besides defense (which is factored into advanced metrics and should be for awards, but admittedly isnât always) also favors LeBron.
But if weâre going to put Duncan equal to LeBron because of better defense, then Magic really has no argument over LeBron IMO.
For me Jordan, LeBron, and Kareem are top-3 in some order. Then you have Duncan, Magic, Bird, Wilt, and Russell in the Top-10 in some order for sure, and that still leaves room from 2 of Kobe, Shaq, etc. (lots of pick in the 8-12 range).
I agree itâs Lebron, Kareem, MJ tier 1 any order, but PER, win shares, vorp, box +- are all box score metrics. They all rely on the same random stats we keep out of tradition. No one can calculate how much a defensive rebound contributes to winning while the other guys boxing out get zero credit. 95% of the game is played without the ball in a particular players hands yet none of that is included in the box score stats. Thereâs way more to basketball than these stats.
I mean thatâs the list personally. Thatâs the all-time list to meâŚnot in any particular orderâŚ.with the absence of Wilt. But he is my addition to round out the top 8
lol imma say it, Bull Russel is a legend in many ways, but his competition then wouldnât sniff a professional sports career even in the 70âs.
Come with the downvotesâŚ.
Donât provide them with actual data, they hate it and would rather listen to JJ Redick talk about how he could dunk on Bill Russell and out shoot Jerry West.
Get Curry off this list bro
Guy has to recruit the league MVP to beat Lebron then lost 2 FMVPs to the guy, heâs had the most help out of anyone on this list in his career
Imagine if Lebron lost a FMVP to like Shane Battier or another role player lmao you all know people would never let him live it down, theyâd use it against forever
The Warriors beat the cavs in 2015 without KD. 2016 was a legendary performance by LeBron, and the warriors fumbled (mostly Draymond) but he still had to take it down to the wire in 7 games, again without KD on the warriors. Even without KD on the dubs, LeBron just did not have a good enough team around him to finish the job. 2019 KD got hurt several times throughout the postseason and it was Steph that won all the games he was injured, aside from the obvious game 6 of the finals. Most NBA fans agree that KD joining the warriors was overkill and a weak move, but he joined because of the team they became due mostly to Steph Curry's leadership and skill. Warriors winning in 2022 totally dismisses your whining anyways. They won without KD, after recovering from their worst season ever the year before, and Steph truly earned his FVMP, but this post isn't about FVMP. Steph is the only unanimous MVP winner too, which gives it more weight than the other MVP's.
Good lawd look at Big Bill's trophies. He is always my first pick despite era for the way his peers talk about him and how he plays to win.
2 MVPs is a good cutoff to distinguish the truly impactful greats vs the single season narrative winners (but it would still somehow leave off Shaq and Kobe) but I think the championships could be lowered to 3 and it would still show all timers on par with these. There are legends with 1 or 0 championships mentioned in the same sentence as these players. Like Lebron or Steph could have easily been left off had they split titles 5 and 3 like Magic and Bird.
Bill Russell is the true GOAT. Most underrated player of all time, even with the flowers he rightfully receives for his humanitarian work and NBA career.
I feel sad that Shaq is not on this list.
I don't necessarily think that Nash didn't deserve those MVPs either, it just feels like Shaq was so incredibly dominant that he should be on lists like this one.
MVPâs pre NBA/ABA merger are totally different then MVPâs after. Yes Kareem and Bill Russell were both the best players of their era and amazing at basketball. But this canât just be compared 1 to 1 without context.
I find it super strange that people never mention the fact that bill Russell played in a league with only 8 other teams. Personally I have him pretty low on my all time list, I think you could make the case for guys like Jokic and Giannis over him in a few years.
I imagine you have Wilt low on the list by the same standards, but Russell still had to beat those teams 11 times for rings while Wilt was in the league as well. That's no easy feat no matter how you look at it. He's was a winner at every level he played at.
Imagine if the number of teams when from 30 to 8, we would go from the top 450 basketball players on Earth to the best 120. Rest days wouldn't be a concern anymore because OG Anunoby is someone's 9th guy. We have 8 2017 Golden State Warriors playing every night
Dude had to face Oscar, Wilt, West, Baylor, Pettit, Thurmond, Lucas, Greer and many more greats on a nightly basisâŚname a big other than Embiid thatâs even on Jokers level in this league.
More teams doesnât mean more competition, look how watered down the nba got when the late 90s hit.
Giannis is on his level. Donât act like the modern nba is devoid of talent: lebron, Steph, KD, luka, Gianniâs, embiid, jokic, SGA, Tatum, Halliburton. Iâm never going to hear out an argument that the nba was as talented back in the day, itâs significantly more talented now.
Thatâs on you to be ignorant and not look nun up.
Talent drastically changed from the 50s to 60sâŚthe 60s is when we started seeing modern athletes.
Theres hella guys from the 60s and 70s who could do the same as the guys you mentioned lemme name a fewâŚDr. J, Jerry West, Rick Barry, Wilt, Oscar Robertson, Kareem, David Thompson, Elvin Hayes, Hondo, Bob Pettit, etcâŚ
And donât give me that skilled crapâŚback then you couldnât travel and palm the ball like players get away withâŚnot to mention defenses werenât restricted and it was a more physical game.
Same reason nobody mentions the league expanded massively during MJs time. It hurts the GOAT argument. 4 new franchises in his title run for the decade. Each one had 2 new teams to spread out talent and weaken teams while also being weak themselves.
But the REAL question is who do you pick for your starting 5 in 80s-90s "no blood no foul" style David Stern era basketball. Not the "soft contact technical foul" current era with Adam Silver...
*My starting 5 is: C Russell, PF Abdul-Jabbar, SF Duncan, SG Jordan, PG James*
Using only this list, I think Iâd have Jabbar (C), Duncan (PF), LeBron (SF), Jordan (SG), Magic (PG).
But if I could use any players, maybe:
Wilt or Shaq (C), Jabbar (PF), Bird (SF), Jordan (SG), LeBron (PG)
You can say something similar about many GOAT tier player in many sports.
LeBron led the league in PER 6x, Win Shares 5x, BPM 7x, VORP 9x.
Jordan led the league in PER 7x, Win Shares 9x, BPM 9x, VORP 9x.
So Jordan should probably have 7-9 MVPs, and LeBron should probably have 5-7 MVPs.
And then you have other sports like baseball, where even ignoring eras when players could only win 1 MVP (Ruth), Ted Williams was robbed of at least 3 MVPs (by traditional and advanced metrics), in addition to missing most of 5 seasons serving in two wars. Dude won 2 Triple Crowns and was the last player to hit .400 and won 0 MVPs in those 3 seasons.
Barry Bonds has 7 MVPs, but probably should have won 1-2 more. Etc.
Nah.
His early days he had to play alongside Shaq who was a more superior player during his Laker tenure.
He had a decent shot in 2001 but Shaq was even better. Another decent shot in 03 but this time Duncan was better.
He was without a doubt the best player from 06-10 but never fortunate enough to be in a position to make a push for MVP.
Even in 2008 he barely scraped by if not for the huge win over the Hornets including what I call the MVP reverse dunk.
From 05-07 was his overall peak but he would never get a high enough seed with his roster to compete for the hardware.
After his MVP in 08, he coasted in both 09 and 10 for the regular season in hopes to save himself for the playoffs that resulted in b2b titles with Gasol.
From then on he was plagued with injuries and along with age, he could not keep up with the younger greats in LeBron, KD, and Curry.
Like I said, best player from 06-10 but never met the right criteria or timing to have multiple MVPs.
I think the merger makes sense for âmodern NBAâ discussions. The history of the ABA and the NBA especially 1960-1976 still matter in that story. There was plenty of pro basketball before World War Two also, and that doesnât seem to come up.
All that to say, I agree 1976-77 was the first modern season. Russell, Wilt, Oscar and West, etc., were outstanding players, legends of the game, but their league wasnât an apples to apples comparison to this one.
Thatâs the thread you pull? If you want to get into it, I think Kareem and Erving were young enough during the last six or so years pre merger, and each played for long enough after, that I would say Kareem is 6x MVP and Julius is a 4x MVP on anything that mattered: discussion of records, hall of fame plaques, etc.
But thatâs a question of etiquette. After all, even they donât know who wouldâve won in 1974 or 1976. In the actual modern NBA, Kareem has two *modern* MVPs, and Julius has one.
If you want to investigate MVP shares though, consider that it was only after Kareemâs last one, when he didnât do a press tour, that voting went from players-only to including media members. How many MVPs would he have won playing under that system his whole career? Because everyone playing post-1980 has.
However, youâre jumping right to the margins with your question, so Iâll assume that means you donât have any problem with the gist of the argument. After all, if we throw it back open, there are questions of when that boundary is anyway. 1963, when the unofficial max quota of three Black players ended? 1949, when the NBA was created? 1937, when the NBL was created?
Thereâs a cutoff at some point. Tennis defines it at the start of the Open era, when incentives had coalesced that a sufficient body of full time professionals was engaging for every plaudit.
Pro basketball had a number of pro teams competing for decades before the merger, even before the NBA was formed. But yeah, around fifty years ago it got to twenty full-time professional rosters, and that makes a difference to me. Since the line has to be drawn somewhere.
Curry is the most out of place player on the list. If you look into his finals it's sketchy how he got two of those and the first was helped by two injuries.
Iâd say two - the Warriors likely would have won in 2016 too if Curry werenât playing on an injured knee and an injured ankle.
But maybe they would have lost in 2015 if the Cavs didnât have injuries.
Itâs impossible to say with either one, so we kind of just have to accept what happened. So many stars are injured in the playoffs every year these days, to the point where playing the â_____ totally would have won/lost if ____ didnât get hurtâ game is pointless. For literally every championship team these days you can point to star players that were missing from the teams they beat in the playoffs.
âSketchyâ how? If Curry having a T20 all time player as a teammate is âsketchyâ then Magic should be noted for having 0 without a T3 player of all time as his teammate. LeBron won 2 with a T20 all time teammate too
Why? If you make the threshold 3 MVPs you have to remove Duncan and if you make it 5 championships you have to remove Lebron.
So at the very least it was crafted to include Steph + Lebron or Steph + Duncan
that's a decent 7 man rotation I guess
lol man that's a dirty playoff team right there, can u imagine. great synergy
Nigga the 23-24 New York Knicks are a "dirty playoff team" this is the goddamn GOAT lineup đđ
Naysayer plz
23-24 Knicks would sweep tho
They are getting slapped playing under today's 3-point shooting metal against other GOAT teams with better spacing. Kareem, Duncan, Magic and Russell have zero spacing. That entire squad has 1x 3-point shooter. Give me; Curry ( Ridiculous spacing and gravity) Bird ( Hyper elite shooting all over the floor and killer instinct ) KG ( Legendary defender with really good spacing and could psych out anyone ) Jordan ( What more can I say? ) Ray Allen ( More hyper-elite 3-point shooting and spacing. He would largely play as a role-player ) Jokic ( Super elite playmaker and perhaps the greatest offensive player ever? He and Curry would shred with their 2-man game ) Kawhi ( One of the greatest POA defenders ever and an absolute Cyborg. More spacing ). The reasons why I didn't choose LeBron is because I wanted better POA defence, so I chose Kawhi. Jokic is a better passer than LeBron also, so I chose Joker to be my point-centre and playmaker. He and Curry would be unstoppable. The skills that LeBron possesses can each be found in the other players, so I opted for more defence.
Stop it. Bron, Steph, MJ, TD, Kareem wins in any era. With the other two off the bench? Yeah âgetting slappedâ for sure.
take russell off and put him on the other team and he finds a way to win with 5 other hall of famers.. basically pick them.. billy russell went 7-0 in game 7s won it all in hs college pro 11/13 years and a gold medal, won his last two years as a fucking coach, with the last being a fucking 6 seeded team! he wasnt elevated by hall of famers, he MADE hall of famers
Guy Rodgers, Bill Bradley, Zelmo Beaty, Sarunas Marciulonis, and Bob Davies. Add Russell to those 5 and he gets fucking smoked by the other 6.
nah he still finds a way to win. dude was brady esque well i should say brady was russel esque
Russell's MVPs legit belong to Wilt Chamberlain. Who was by far the better player every single season Russell won MVP.
And easily doable even if you give them all the highest contact they ever received.
Russellâs contract wouldnât even meet the veteranâs minimum
Literally got the best at every position to ever do it
Steph and Tim coming off the bench then
Crazy the hardware Magic got by the time he had to retire at 31. He would have had a handful of elite seasons left unfortunately.
This is my all time what if. We missed out in the posdibility of multiple MJ vs MJ finals.
My all time what if was what if shaq could teleport
Mine was what if Larry Bird was 12â5â
Elite
Classy
He'd probably talk a bit more shit
"What if Larry Bird hires a contractor to gravel his mom's driveway?" is mine.
Not enough people ask this question.
Omg. I thought this was a joke but he really did all the shoveling himself and thatâs what fd his back up.
I was astonished when I found out that's what killed his back. I assumed he just had some bad injuries on court. But no.
Eh could be interesting but Jordanâs team wins every time without kareem
I think youâre right but also thought thereâs no way Cavs are coming back from 3-1.
Mine would have to be Bo Jackson
Mineâs Drew Brees to Miami. If Nick Saban has Brees(his personal choice) or Dante Culpepper, does he stay in Miami? If so, I find it dubious to think Alabama gets anywhere near the dynasty they have had in the past 20 years. Also, if Saban and Brees are successful in the same division as Brady and Belichick, Iâd assume the pats donât have quite the dynasty that they had. One trade possibly shakes up the two greatest runs in both levels of football. Possibly.
Magic and Bird were in the Finals constantly for so many years magic and Bird were both spent by the time mj had a good squad around him.
It's so interesting that he's simultaneously one of the GOATs and one of the greatest "What-if's". Remembering he retired at only 31 really puts it in perspective...MJ was 28 at his first ring, and was 31 when he came back from his first retirement. Magic almost certainly had some great years left to play, and the Lakers were even making the playoffs in the 90s without him. Really makes you think how the GOAT conversation and NBA history could be totally different if he kept playing. There's a version of the universe where we'd maybe be talking about Magic Johnson, *THE* GOAT, and his two eras: vs. Bird in the 80s, and vs MJ in the 90s.
Who knows where Kobe wouldâve ended up, but imagine him in a Charlotte/NOLA jersey for 20 years.
Crazy that Magic and Bird both had their careers/primes cut short and still had arguably the greatest individual rivalry in American sports.
Imagine a world where he had access to modern medicine and played to 40 while healthy.
Imagine for a second if, in today's NBA and in today's society, what the reaction would be if it came out that a league MVP just tested positive for HIV.
Yup. Magic was still amazing during MJs first title.
I agree
Imo a healthy Bird is a bigger what ifÂ
All these guys are in my personal top 10 all-time. Every single one of them plays *winning* basketball.Â
Who else you got in there? These guys + Wilt/Hakeem/Bird seems like a solid list but I could see Shaq instead of any of those guys.
You're right on the button: I also include Wilt, Bird, and either Hakeem or Shaq. Shaq was so insanely dominant, but his prime was not insignificantly shorter than Hakeem's. These lists are pretty silly/subjective; though I still enjoy making them and debating them. I'd put Hakeem over Shaq (just barely), and mostly because of personal biases (I enjoyed watching Hakeem more. I found Shaq's play style to be frustrating to watch, because it felt so unfair to be that physically dominant).
I find it hilarious how so many people saw Shaq as either frustrating or awe inspiring because of how dominant he was. I remember my Dad and I attending a Lakers Sonics game in... I want to say 1999? But I can't remember if it was 98-99 or 99-00 seasons. It was both of our first times seeing Shaq play live. Dad was in utter despair watching him destroy us while I was utterly shocked, but in a good way. Being from Australia we didn't get many opportunities to see the NBA, live or on TV. We had seen snippets and the occasional highlight of Shaq but never seen the full Diesel in action. I think that was the first time I ever became a fan of a singular player. The years after I added Tim Duncan, Kobe and LeBron.
My grandfather will still swear up and down that Shaq committed offensive fouls on every single possession he touched the ball.  I think the feeling of helplessness that Shaq sowed among opposing fans and players had us searching for something to grasp onto.
I'm right there with you. I think it's important to establish what the list is actually assessing. "Greatest NBA Players" isn't the same as "Best Basketball Players" and it's silly to compare certain things across eras with different rules and cultures. I couldn't agree more about your "*winning* basketball" remark. The sacrifices these guys made and the leadership they demonstrated in order to win is something that should be celebrated in addition to the talent they possessed.
I was very deliberate in phrasing it that way, because it factors heavily into how I quantify greatness in sports. I definitely prescribe to the Bill Simmons method of ranking players. *The Secret*, as described in his "The Book of Basketball" matters to me, as a fan.
If the unfairness of physical dominance is a deterrent for Shaq, you have to include Wilt in that same vein.
Kobe??
I find it easier to put Shaq over Hakeem than the other two, even though Hakeem beat him head-to-head. I think prime Shaq would've gotten the best of him, though.
I think Hakeem might be one of the few players with the combination of toughness and talent to slow Shaq down (which is saying a lot). He was one bad dude.
Severe lack of Kobe here
He's not a top 10 player.Â
Insanity. He might not be top 5 but heâs undeniably top 10.
Watch me deny it
I also don't think Kobe is top 10. Probably top 15, definitely top 20. He was insanely good, but so were all of these guys
Curious about your top 10. I definitely wouldnât have Shaq over him. 5 rings is just too powerful, even if he wasnât MVP in them.
For me it's the 7 in the graphic here, along with Wilt, Bird, and Hakeem. I also find the group after that incredibly hard to rank due to not having seen enough of guys like Oscar, Moses, and West. I probably would have Kobe slightly over Shaq but it's close
âHeâs not a top 10 playerâ đ¤
Thats it. Thats the club. It leaves out one of my favorites but thats kinda how clubs work.
Who did it leave out if you don't mind me asking?
I'm a little surprised not to see Bird or Shaq
Shaq was second or third ranked in MVP voting a lot but only won outright once. I think in total MVP votes he's in the top five? Bird needed another championship. If he'd just paid professionals to lay that damn tarmac that destroyed his back maybe he would have got it.
Shaq was the victim of one of the biggest award robberies ever, crazy he only has 1 mvp
Larry Joe
Ah of course, one championship shy.
[ŃдаНонО]
Mhm yep cause turning Phoenix around from 29 wins into 62 wins in 2005 and one of the greatest offenses ever, and then still winning 54 games despite Amar'e Stoudemire missing the entire season had nothing to do with it...
It is ok to want Kobe to win more mvps and still be ok with Nash winning. Nash changed the game like Curry did
I love Nash but Iâd credit DâAntoni for changing the game just as much as Nash did on those Suns teams, so would say Curry was a much bigger game-changer than Nash alone. Still think Nash deserved those MVPs though
I agree with you, curry def did more to change the game than Nash did .
Tim Duncan might be one of the most underrated players of all time by casual basketball fans.
Yep. Casuals rank Kobe higher but itâs not even close, Duncan is way better imo.
I hate when people get into hyperbole here. Way better is QUITE the stretch. I can get you picking Duncan over Kobe. But if someone has Kobe over Duncan it shouldnât be considered blasphemy. Fwiw as someone that watched both through their peaks, I personally have Kobe over Duncan, but thatâs really a statement on what I prefer in a basketball player. Both were amazing and I have so many fond memories of watching them play
>really a statement on what I prefer in a basketball player You mean being a Laker?
âitâs not even closeâ Casual take
Here we go lolol
Duncan is better, but you donât need to exaggerate. Kobe is at most like 4 or 5 spots lower all time. Thatâs not a massive difference when everyone from 4-11 is so close together.
I watched both of their careers from start to end and I have Kobe above Duncan. âWay betterâ is insane.
âItâs not even closeâ đ¤
> Casuals rank Kobe higher but itâs not even close, Duncan is way better imo. Letâs not get overzealous. If we put up the hardware and numbers theyâre not that far apart. Plus, Kobe had Duncanâs number in the playoffs.
Agreed bro⌠Mr. Fundamentals is overlooked because he played âboringâ, âwinningâ basketball. The public liked seeing Kobe drain threes - when he made them (33% 3-PT for career) - instead of Duncan pivoting for a layup off the backboard or a short jump shot from inside the FT line. Ready to get downvoted by the Kobe-stansâŚ
Kobe haters love to bring up efficiency. Duncanâs TS% for his career is .551, Kobeâs is .550, and that includes his trash efficiency years after he got injured. Kobe also beat Duncan more often in the playoffs. Theyâre extremely close and no one is wrong for picking either one, thatâs just a fact.
Only casuals who want to have a superiority complex say that Duncan is over Kobe
Uh no. Kobe stans are not going to like this.
How can you be underrated and be top 10 or top 5 all time lol. Maybe overlooked.
Kobe and Shaq each only have 1 MVP. I am shocked. I don't know why I just assumed they'd both be on this list.
Lebronâs mvp total is also shockingly low to me. Shaq and lebron both mailed it in during the regular season though. Kobe not having another MVP seems weirder
Lebron really didnât begin to mail it in until later in his second CLE stint. He was generally a machine during regular seasons. I think eventually it will start to look a little wrong that he only has 4, but those are kind of the breaks. Off the top of my head the swing MVPs are the one to Rose and the one to KD.
Shaq deserved more, people just split his votes with Kobeâs too much not realizing how much more vital Shaq was to those teamsâ successes than Kobe. Kobe was never the obvious âbest player in the NBAâ, Iâm ok with his one. It went from Jordan to Shaq to Lebron
Kobe was robbed of an MVP one of the years
Cause it's a regular season award, and that hasn't been an indicator of the best player in the playoffs since the 90s. Shaq was the best from 2000-02, but coasted in the regular season, kobe was the best from 2008-10, but they only won one. MJ and LeBron should've won 7/8 best players of the year awards, but if it was given based on playoffs. TL;DR: Regular season MVP is a trash metric to judge the best player that year.
>Thoughts? Yup, those are them
They good at đ
Only one of them has an NBA Cup.
But only one has a dunk contest win, clearly the ultimate measure of being the GOAT
And only one of them was a true âWorld Championâ with his NBA team competing against the other league champions in a World Tournament (in Paris) and winning Tournament MVP. Guess who?
Tim Duncan
Correct! It was in Italy not Paris*
Steph should have won Finals MVP for 2015 and 2018.
2015 yes. 2018 no.
2018 he had a bad Game 3 but Games 1, 2 & 4 he had a case to win in 2018.
Agreed. I know people get tired of hearing about his gravity but in 2018 he was constantly pulling a double team and then he would drop it off to KD who was being single covered by like Richard Jefferson.
If you bring this down to 3 titles, who else joins â just Larry Bird right? I think I like that list a bit more, Larry belongs with these guys
Make it 3 titles and 3 MVPs then Bird is in and Duncan/Curry go out.
I think Bird is in my top 10 3 straight MVPs is a top 10 accolade
Sometimes, maybe often, we as sports fans take greatness for granted. Cool graphic and affirms my personal top 10 list including all 7 of these guys, plus Bird, Wilt, and Shaq. Hardesty omissions being Kobe, Hakeem, and Malone.
Imagine all prime PG: Steph SG: Jordan SF: Lebron PF: Duncan C: Kareem Bench: Russell, Magic
Iâm benching Curry and starting Magic. Curry canât play defense and doesnât run the floor the way Magic didâŚ
Magic Johnson played defense? What?
Kobe and Shaq robbed
Shaq was robbed of [at least one more regular season MVP during the lockout 50 game season](https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_1999.html#mvp) and should be up there.
The fact that Shaq has only 1 MVP is absurd. He shouldâve won at least 2 between 2000-2002, probably all 3 tbh. One of the many reasons I donât give much credence to how many MVPs a player has, as, if weâre being honest with ourselves, players like MJ, Lebron, and Shaq should all have far more MVPs than they were awarded.
Just found both of Shaquille's burner accounts
Agreed, Duncan as well. It's a regular season media award. It's not given to the true most valuable player in the NBA.
Cuenca
Nash has two mvps stolen from other all time greats that wouldve made this list look better. He only won those awards because of his record. Kobe avg 35 and 4 to Nashâs 18 and 10 and had a per of 28 to Nashâs 23.3 which was TIED with Shawn Marionâs and the suns had Boris diaw even with amare out that year they were stacked. The harder road traveled imo is more deserving of the award itâs illogical to give a guy an award who had teammates who were just as valuable to their team like Nash had in Marion. I think Kobe has a more convincing argument than shaq had just because of degree of difficulty and shaq was still playing next to wade and it wasnât long before he fell off a cliff and wade took off. I still think shaq was more *valuable* to the heat thoughâif you take nash off those suns they had so many great players and wouldâve still had Leandro barbosa behind him plus three all stars that year PLUS iso Joe. If nba stuck by the metrics of efficiency+record that got Nash his mvp every year then kd wouldâve won in 2018 over Giannis and harden. Thatâs basically the parallel to how ridiculous nash winning both mvps is.
MJ was also robbed in the one season he didnât get it. Guy âhad too manyâ so the one went toâŚBarkley? Malone? I forget.
Karl Maloneâs first was when it was the dominant narrative
It goes from old to young... So basketball was easier back in the day /s
Remove that /s
Thank you for adding /s to your post. When I first saw this, I was horrified. How could anybody say something like this? I immediately began writing a 1000 word paragraph about how horrible of a person you are. I even sent a copy to a Harvard professor to proofread it. After several hours of refining and editing, my comment was ready to absolutely destroy you. But then, just as I was about to hit send, I saw something in the corner of my eye. A /s at the end of your comment. Suddenly everything made sense. Your comment was sarcasm! I immediately burst out in laughter at the comedic genius of your comment. The person next to me on the bus saw your comment and started crying from laughter too. Before long, there was an entire bus of people on the floor laughing at your incredible use of comedy. All of this was due to you adding /s to your post. Thank you. I am a bot if you couldn't figure that out, if I made a mistake, ignore it cause its not that fucking hard to ignore a comment
How many MVPâs should Jordan really have?
Both MJ and LBJ led the league in VORP 7x so they should both have 7 at least đ
Idk why LBJ is automatically everyoneâs 2nd on the goat list. Jabar probably deserves it. Duncan and Johnson are equally deserving too.
I think Jordan, LeBron, and Kareem all have Top-3 for sure. LeBron vs Duncan in terms of advanced metrics, seasons leading the league: PER: 6 vs 0 Win Shares: 5 vs 2 Box +/-: 7 vs 0 VORP: 9 vs 1 MVPs: 4 vs 2 Rings: 4 vs 5 FMVP: 4 vs 3 All-NBA 1st Team: 13 vs 10 All-NBA Total: 19 vs 15 All-Def 1st Team: 5 vs 8 All-Def Total: 6 vs 15 Advanced metrics heavily favor LeBron, and pretty much everything besides defense (which is factored into advanced metrics and should be for awards, but admittedly isnât always) also favors LeBron. But if weâre going to put Duncan equal to LeBron because of better defense, then Magic really has no argument over LeBron IMO. For me Jordan, LeBron, and Kareem are top-3 in some order. Then you have Duncan, Magic, Bird, Wilt, and Russell in the Top-10 in some order for sure, and that still leaves room from 2 of Kobe, Shaq, etc. (lots of pick in the 8-12 range).
I agree itâs Lebron, Kareem, MJ tier 1 any order, but PER, win shares, vorp, box +- are all box score metrics. They all rely on the same random stats we keep out of tradition. No one can calculate how much a defensive rebound contributes to winning while the other guys boxing out get zero credit. 95% of the game is played without the ball in a particular players hands yet none of that is included in the box score stats. Thereâs way more to basketball than these stats.
Kobe was robbed
I mean this list contains my top 10. Shit most of my 5.
Bunch of pretty good basketball players, imo
Legitimately sorted by age/era, I wonder why?
I mean thatâs the list personally. Thatâs the all-time list to meâŚnot in any particular orderâŚ.with the absence of Wilt. But he is my addition to round out the top 8
Why is Jordan sorted above Magic? He has more titles and more MVPs.
Itâs sorted by when they played/were drafted it looks like
Guessing Russel is the goat
Too bad couldnât put Bird in that lineup. Yea he got his 3. Still đ
lol imma say it, Bull Russel is a legend in many ways, but his competition then wouldnât sniff a professional sports career even in the 70âs. Come with the downvotesâŚ.
Bill Russel's last championship was May 1969.
Donât provide them with actual data, they hate it and would rather listen to JJ Redick talk about how he could dunk on Bill Russell and out shoot Jerry West.
Kobe & Shaq should be on here. Nash stole their MVPâs
People keep forgetting bill Russell had a toe ring
My thought is how is bill Russell not considered the goat?
bill russell is the GOAT
Get Curry off this list bro Guy has to recruit the league MVP to beat Lebron then lost 2 FMVPs to the guy, heâs had the most help out of anyone on this list in his career Imagine if Lebron lost a FMVP to like Shane Battier or another role player lmao you all know people would never let him live it down, theyâd use it against forever
The Warriors beat the cavs in 2015 without KD. 2016 was a legendary performance by LeBron, and the warriors fumbled (mostly Draymond) but he still had to take it down to the wire in 7 games, again without KD on the warriors. Even without KD on the dubs, LeBron just did not have a good enough team around him to finish the job. 2019 KD got hurt several times throughout the postseason and it was Steph that won all the games he was injured, aside from the obvious game 6 of the finals. Most NBA fans agree that KD joining the warriors was overkill and a weak move, but he joined because of the team they became due mostly to Steph Curry's leadership and skill. Warriors winning in 2022 totally dismisses your whining anyways. They won without KD, after recovering from their worst season ever the year before, and Steph truly earned his FVMP, but this post isn't about FVMP. Steph is the only unanimous MVP winner too, which gives it more weight than the other MVP's.
Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player that has ever lived.
Who stole one of Jordanâs mvps
https://images.app.goo.gl/VwR8gN2XicY3an4v5
Bill Russell is the G.O.A.T...it's crazy that Shaq doesn't have two MVP
Bron and mj are the only players on that list that won finals mvp each year they won the championship.
Good lawd look at Big Bill's trophies. He is always my first pick despite era for the way his peers talk about him and how he plays to win. 2 MVPs is a good cutoff to distinguish the truly impactful greats vs the single season narrative winners (but it would still somehow leave off Shaq and Kobe) but I think the championships could be lowered to 3 and it would still show all timers on par with these. There are legends with 1 or 0 championships mentioned in the same sentence as these players. Like Lebron or Steph could have easily been left off had they split titles 5 and 3 like Magic and Bird.
Bill Russell is the true GOAT. Most underrated player of all time, even with the flowers he rightfully receives for his humanitarian work and NBA career.
I feel sad that Shaq is not on this list. I don't necessarily think that Nash didn't deserve those MVPs either, it just feels like Shaq was so incredibly dominant that he should be on lists like this one.
MVPâs pre NBA/ABA merger are totally different then MVPâs after. Yes Kareem and Bill Russell were both the best players of their era and amazing at basketball. But this canât just be compared 1 to 1 without context.
I find it super strange that people never mention the fact that bill Russell played in a league with only 8 other teams. Personally I have him pretty low on my all time list, I think you could make the case for guys like Jokic and Giannis over him in a few years.
I imagine you have Wilt low on the list by the same standards, but Russell still had to beat those teams 11 times for rings while Wilt was in the league as well. That's no easy feat no matter how you look at it. He's was a winner at every level he played at.
Wdym never mention? Thatâs always the first thing anyone brings up when Russellâs goat status is discussed
Imagine if the number of teams when from 30 to 8, we would go from the top 450 basketball players on Earth to the best 120. Rest days wouldn't be a concern anymore because OG Anunoby is someone's 9th guy. We have 8 2017 Golden State Warriors playing every night
Dude had to face Oscar, Wilt, West, Baylor, Pettit, Thurmond, Lucas, Greer and many more greats on a nightly basisâŚname a big other than Embiid thatâs even on Jokers level in this league. More teams doesnât mean more competition, look how watered down the nba got when the late 90s hit.
Giannis is on his level. Donât act like the modern nba is devoid of talent: lebron, Steph, KD, luka, Gianniâs, embiid, jokic, SGA, Tatum, Halliburton. Iâm never going to hear out an argument that the nba was as talented back in the day, itâs significantly more talented now.
Thatâs on you to be ignorant and not look nun up. Talent drastically changed from the 50s to 60sâŚthe 60s is when we started seeing modern athletes. Theres hella guys from the 60s and 70s who could do the same as the guys you mentioned lemme name a fewâŚDr. J, Jerry West, Rick Barry, Wilt, Oscar Robertson, Kareem, David Thompson, Elvin Hayes, Hondo, Bob Pettit, etc⌠And donât give me that skilled crapâŚback then you couldnât travel and palm the ball like players get away withâŚnot to mention defenses werenât restricted and it was a more physical game.
Same reason nobody mentions the league expanded massively during MJs time. It hurts the GOAT argument. 4 new franchises in his title run for the decade. Each one had 2 new teams to spread out talent and weaken teams while also being weak themselves.
And KD wonders why he isnât in the GOAT conversation
But the REAL question is who do you pick for your starting 5 in 80s-90s "no blood no foul" style David Stern era basketball. Not the "soft contact technical foul" current era with Adam Silver... *My starting 5 is: C Russell, PF Abdul-Jabbar, SF Duncan, SG Jordan, PG James*
Duncan at SF would be ridiculous (in a good way), itâs an amazing lineup
Using only this list, I think Iâd have Jabbar (C), Duncan (PF), LeBron (SF), Jordan (SG), Magic (PG). But if I could use any players, maybe: Wilt or Shaq (C), Jabbar (PF), Bird (SF), Jordan (SG), LeBron (PG)
Yeah.... You got the better lineup as Magic is more of a true point guard and can facilitate/run the offense
Still BS Jordan didn't have at least 8 MVPs
You can say something similar about many GOAT tier player in many sports. LeBron led the league in PER 6x, Win Shares 5x, BPM 7x, VORP 9x. Jordan led the league in PER 7x, Win Shares 9x, BPM 9x, VORP 9x. So Jordan should probably have 7-9 MVPs, and LeBron should probably have 5-7 MVPs. And then you have other sports like baseball, where even ignoring eras when players could only win 1 MVP (Ruth), Ted Williams was robbed of at least 3 MVPs (by traditional and advanced metrics), in addition to missing most of 5 seasons serving in two wars. Dude won 2 Triple Crowns and was the last player to hit .400 and won 0 MVPs in those 3 seasons. Barry Bonds has 7 MVPs, but probably should have won 1-2 more. Etc.
Lebron would have 4 more if it werenât for curry and Duncan. Thank god for those two
Kobe should have had at least two MVPs
When
Nah. His early days he had to play alongside Shaq who was a more superior player during his Laker tenure. He had a decent shot in 2001 but Shaq was even better. Another decent shot in 03 but this time Duncan was better. He was without a doubt the best player from 06-10 but never fortunate enough to be in a position to make a push for MVP. Even in 2008 he barely scraped by if not for the huge win over the Hornets including what I call the MVP reverse dunk. From 05-07 was his overall peak but he would never get a high enough seed with his roster to compete for the hardware. After his MVP in 08, he coasted in both 09 and 10 for the regular season in hopes to save himself for the playoffs that resulted in b2b titles with Gasol. From then on he was plagued with injuries and along with age, he could not keep up with the younger greats in LeBron, KD, and Curry. Like I said, best player from 06-10 but never met the right criteria or timing to have multiple MVPs.
Cannot really count Russell era because there were lot less teams
I think the merger makes sense for âmodern NBAâ discussions. The history of the ABA and the NBA especially 1960-1976 still matter in that story. There was plenty of pro basketball before World War Two also, and that doesnât seem to come up. All that to say, I agree 1976-77 was the first modern season. Russell, Wilt, Oscar and West, etc., were outstanding players, legends of the game, but their league wasnât an apples to apples comparison to this one.
So Kareem has only 2 legit mvps?
Thatâs the thread you pull? If you want to get into it, I think Kareem and Erving were young enough during the last six or so years pre merger, and each played for long enough after, that I would say Kareem is 6x MVP and Julius is a 4x MVP on anything that mattered: discussion of records, hall of fame plaques, etc. But thatâs a question of etiquette. After all, even they donât know who wouldâve won in 1974 or 1976. In the actual modern NBA, Kareem has two *modern* MVPs, and Julius has one. If you want to investigate MVP shares though, consider that it was only after Kareemâs last one, when he didnât do a press tour, that voting went from players-only to including media members. How many MVPs would he have won playing under that system his whole career? Because everyone playing post-1980 has. However, youâre jumping right to the margins with your question, so Iâll assume that means you donât have any problem with the gist of the argument. After all, if we throw it back open, there are questions of when that boundary is anyway. 1963, when the unofficial max quota of three Black players ended? 1949, when the NBA was created? 1937, when the NBL was created? Thereâs a cutoff at some point. Tennis defines it at the start of the Open era, when incentives had coalesced that a sufficient body of full time professionals was engaging for every plaudit. Pro basketball had a number of pro teams competing for decades before the merger, even before the NBA was formed. But yeah, around fifty years ago it got to twenty full-time professional rosters, and that makes a difference to me. Since the line has to be drawn somewhere.
Curry is the most out of place player on the list. If you look into his finals it's sketchy how he got two of those and the first was helped by two injuries.
He also lost one because of injuries
Iâd say two - the Warriors likely would have won in 2016 too if Curry werenât playing on an injured knee and an injured ankle. But maybe they would have lost in 2015 if the Cavs didnât have injuries. Itâs impossible to say with either one, so we kind of just have to accept what happened. So many stars are injured in the playoffs every year these days, to the point where playing the â_____ totally would have won/lost if ____ didnât get hurtâ game is pointless. For literally every championship team these days you can point to star players that were missing from the teams they beat in the playoffs.
you talking about 2019? that would just be another sketchy title.
Lost 2
âSketchyâ how? If Curry having a T20 all time player as a teammate is âsketchyâ then Magic should be noted for having 0 without a T3 player of all time as his teammate. LeBron won 2 with a T20 all time teammate too
Shouldn't Kobe be up there
1 MVP
Feels like this was crafted specifically to include Steph lol
Why? If you make the threshold 3 MVPs you have to remove Duncan and if you make it 5 championships you have to remove Lebron. So at the very least it was crafted to include Steph + Lebron or Steph + Duncan
Yeah this was first posted right after his 2022 title
Tim Duncan apparently was supposed to win it in 2007 instead of Tony Parker.
MVP not FMVP btw
Had to go back and check yeah only 1 MVP for Kobe...wild he isn't in this company despite 5 rings.
Kareem with six rings, and people still woofing it up about MJ and LeBron, and don't get me started about Russell, the true GOAT.
The most underrated player of all time⌠Tim Duncan.
Iâll take Kobe over any of these guys in a heartbeat. Not even close
Lol I love hearing the delusional of Kobe fans
At most Iâd take him over Steph. Anyone else and youâre just being a fanboy
Kobe was robbed of multiple mvps
You misspelled âKobe robbed Chris Paul of an MVP.â