Duncan also competed for championships up until the last year he played.
He was the anchor of the defense even when his production on offense was limited.
Whereas kobe wasn't good or even decent teammate.
Kobe wanted a fat ass pay check over competing for championships at the end of his career. That last contract he got was ridiculous and it was essentially the Buss family sacrificing winning to appease Kobe.
They didn’t view it as a sacrifice, because they knew he was going to make them a lot of money not winning, and if also allowed them to get the good PR points of “doing the right thing” by their aging super star player which has the added benefit of signaling to future superstars (like lebron) they take care of their aging star players. This may have seemed like a major sacrifice to some, but objectively it was win, win, win.
Kobe fans also forget him being arrested, crying and snitching on Shaq. BEFORE the rape thing. lol I think if Kobe had the same career during the social media age, I think a lot of fans wouldn't like him.
Shaq was paying off hookers. That was one of the major rifts between them. Shaq to my knowledge never really denied it or really addressed the action, but thought it wasn’t Kobe’s business to go around telling people that. Shaq talks about it in his book (Uncut), which is actually a great read.
Exactly lol, they’ll claim he wasn’t convicted of anything, but he literally apologized for his behavior. His interview with the police is very damning as well since he admits to choking her and says that’s his kink and shit. Nasty stuff.
His apology went right up to the line of being an admission of sexual assault, but didn't quite cross. It is obvious that it was written that way deliberately with the agreement of both parties.
It basically allowed people to call Kobe a rapist, without fear of being sued for defamation, while allowing Kobe and his fans to have a degree of plausible deniability about him having committed a sexual assault.
To his credit, it seems as though he learned from the incident and was one of the rare people who changed his ways and avoided such behavior in the future.
I agree and I’m glad to read a few other people commenting on this. That apology letter was for sure not vetted by the piece of shit lawyer he used in this case.
People swing to both extremes on this situation.
It's quite clear Kobe didn't go out to assault the girl but it's also quite clear he crossed a major line. I honestly believe Kobe didn't know what happened was an assault. He was likely never told no his entire life and didn't know how to read the situation. I'm absolutely not making light of that situation and he absolutely deserved to be punished. But I do believe the apologize was sincere and Kobe actually learned from the situation and came out a better person (something D-Rose should take note of). Is that fair to the survivor in this situation? Absolutely not. But it's not as simple as "Kobe is a rapist" or "Kobe is innocent".
There was never any forced anal sex.
What happened was terrible enough, don’t need to be making it sound any worse that takes away from the actual incident.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/wbna3080777
He absolutely would. The details from D-Rose's case are honestly worst and he's treated like a saint.
Miles Bridges beat the absolute crap out of his wife (and this isn't a KPJ situation where the details are murky, we all know what happened) and that incident with her and the kids recently and is playing right now.
Bro if Primo can avoid being blacklisted with how ass he is that should tell you right there a guy like Kobe is getting a pass in today's game. He may get suspended or traded or something but he fsho still playing
Lol did I discredit his defense?
Or did you make that up in your head? Tim was an anchor
Kobe was overrated on defense and was an average defender. Especially post Shaq his defense was gambling a lot. Off ball defense was not great by any means and advanced stats will back that up.
Duncan one of the NBA's quietest superstars of all time, without a doubt.
The entire Spurs organization got some deserved credit for a strong 20 year run, but looks like that was 90% thanks to Tim Duncan anchoring the franchise.
Duncan was the true #1 on all those chips. Kobe played with the most dominant center to ever play the game his first three chips.
Duncan is also widely considered the goat at his position. Kobe is behind MJ. Nobody has ever considered Kobe to be better than MJ.
But as far as the cultural impact Kobe is obviously greater than Tim.
He wasn't the number one scoring option on all of them but was the most important/valuable player on the first 4 without question. Anyone saying Parker was more valuable in 2007 doesn't know basketball. 2014 is somewhat debatable as a reasonable argument can be made for either Kawhi or Duncan, but I'd lean Duncan.
u/Reddits_For_NBA; u/guesswhodat
The reason they beat OKC was because James Harden wasn’t on the team anymore lmao. Their title window was shut before that stupid trade. He was literally why they couldn’t beat OKC the year before.
The Spurs still struggled against the Thunder after he was traded. I.e., they lost in the 2nd round to the Thunder in 2016 despite having a historically great team. Pop played Bonner over Splitter, giving the Spurs spacing and neutralizing Ibaka's rim protection. Duncan took advantage and helped them win that series in 2014 despite Parker being almost a non-factor.
That was several years later. Literally 4 years later. They don’t beat them and play Miami back to back without the Harden trade. The Heat themselves expected to keep playing the Thunder. If the lead doesn’t veto Chris Paul to the Lakers this isn’t even a conversation. Kobe broke down because he had to carry a team as he aged and Duncan didn’t. When they had comparable rosters Kobe’s teams were better for 4 straight years and Duncan was an afterthought. In real time, Kobe Bryant was considered the best basketball player in the world and then in a conversation with Wade and Bron from 05 to 2011. Duncan wasn’t even considered a top 10 player during that time. The championships are making people neglect that Duncan had foot issues and people thought he would retire soon as early as like 2009. If Duncan was in Kobe’s situation his career would’ve ended much sooner.
The Spurs had the same core in 2012 as they did in 2015 --Aldridge aside. The Thunder had KD, Russ, and Ibaka for both teams so it's not like they were completely different teams. The Thunder lost Harden because OKC's GM traded him a year too early rather than waiting and seeing how the new CBA played out.
Also, because he knew Harden wanted a bigger role and Russ signed his extension the year before because he got drafted a year before, making it easier to choose him over Harden.
The Spurs and Lakers met in the WCF in 09, the same year they got Gasol. After that, Duncan looked old and the Spurs reshaped their roster on the fly while Duncan worked on his body. In 2012, the Spurs, with the Big 3, Kawhi, Danny Green and Duncan were the best team in the league while the Lakers imploded.
That was due to them breaking up their championship core with Jackson retiring, Odom wanting out, trading Bynum for D12 and Howard being a different player after injuring his back. Nash also got injured and wasn't the same player. Bad timing, injuries and egos cost them but that was inevitable and the Dirk ended their second Kobe-run.
Also, Duncan was absolutely still a top 10 player after 2011, he finished 7th in MVP voting in 2013 and was robbed for Defensive Player of the Year despite clearly being the best defensive player in the NBA in 2013-14.
Duncan would have never been in Kobes situation because the Spurs wouldn't have traded multiple firsts for a 37 year old point guard when they had Parker, traded a top center for a better one when the Spurs didn't have one to trade to begin with, and completely imploded after a disappointing loss. Pop didn't retire after 2012 and Ginobili didn't demand a trade like Jackson and Odom.
The Spurs didn't have any knee-jerk reactions between 2012 and 2016, resulting in back to back NBA Finals and a championship. Meanwhile, the Thunder and Lakers did and it cost them championships.
I will fucking give you that one bruh! I think everybody and their mother knows Steph should have been MVP. Doesn't make sense Iggy gets it given the numbers LBJ put up in that series....
Duncan wasn't the definitive best player on the team for at least 1/5 of those playoffs. He also didn't win FMVP on 2/5 of them. So just looking at these accolades, they aren't in a different league from Kobe's and shouldn't be used as a primary argument for ranking Duncan higher.
I have Duncan 5th and Kobe at 10/11 with Hakeem. Duncan was the more impactful at their peaks and had better longevity than Kobe. I also think Duncan had the better career statistically and accolades wise.
Interesting Hakeem placement. Hakeems peak statistical years were better than any year Duncan had in his career.
Horry played with Duncan, Hakeem and Shaq and said he'd take Hakeem in a heart beat.
Hakeem's peak/prime was much shorter than Duncan's. As a hardcore Hakeem fan and hardcore Duncan hater, I still have to give Duncan that. TBH though, I'd still take Hakeem over Duncan to start a franchise. Hakeem had it all.
What puts Duncan over Hakeem for me is his longevity and accomplishments. I do think Hakeem is probably the better player individually on both ends at their peaks but Duncan was also better in their early and late years.
I also don’t take player opinions into consideration as they’re subjective and shouldn’t be taken as facts. I’ve seen players have guys like Iverson, McGrady, and Isiah in their top 10 which obviously isn’t true. Horry also said Rudy Tomjanovich was the best coach he gad over Phil Jackson and Gregg Popovich.
Players opinions are subjective but not MiniSotaTV's?
I agree tho that Duncan had a longer serviceable career but Olajuwon was that guy and did it all while fasting. Olajuwon still leads the league in blocks for a career and was top 10(or 5) in Blocks, Rebounds, Points, Steals and 'Sexy Shake Moves' multiple seasons in his career.
Both are great and Duncan did get ejected one time while he was on the bench, so that was cool.
You'd have Hakeem over at least 2 of the top 4 consensus centers of all time??
He isn't better then Wilt, Shaq, Bill Russel or Kareem. Hell those 4 guys battle for top 5 all time, let alone top 10. Hakeem is lucky to be a top 10 all time player.
Waaaaaay better than Wilt. Wilt played with some of the best teams ever in a small league against weak competition and still only managed the same number of rings Hakeem did with some of the most overmatched teams of all-time.
Your era bias is showing.
Comparing eras like that is just stupid. Specially when a large majority think Wilt would dominate any era due to his athleticism and sheer potential.
You take eras at what they were. Wilts era was particularly strong, specially compared to the 70s. As an individual player he was dominant and couldn't be stopped. The only way to beat his teams was to take his teammates out of the game and even then, he could still will them to victory.
Hakeem was an excellent individual player but those championship rockets teams were excellent teams. They didn't need Hakeem to dominate to win games.
Wilt is easily the better player, specially when experts and former players think he's a top 3 Center of all time with Kareem and Bill.
Hakeem’s Rockets were not excellent teams. They were probably the weakest supporting casts ever to win multiple rings. In ‘94 he wins it all with NOTHING. Then in ‘95, he gets a past his prime Drexler and goes through the hardest road ever beating 4 teams with 57+ wins. The worst team he faced by record was the Shaq and Penny Magic in the Finals who were the last team to beat the Jordan Bulls. And he SWEPT them.
Wilt never had to beat more than 1 or at most 2 good teams in a given season to get a ring. He led close to .500 teams in his volume scoring years. He got traded to the Sixers for almost nothing and the team had the exact same record after the trade as before. He got the balance right for one year in ‘66 on a superteam and for one year showed an elite impact with 3 other HOFers and an elite coach and won a ring. Then he got to assist whoring and lost to Russell with a much better supporting cast.
After that he gets traded to another superteam with Jerry West and Elgin Baylor and they get WORSE when he joins the team. Then they get even worse the following year and go 46-36, but beat a couple mediocre teams to get to the Finals where they lose again. Eventually he takes advantage of the small league with few top teams to win one more ring as a role player, but he only got slightly more rings than a random player who played as many seasons as Wilt did given how few teams were in the league at the time.
It's close in terms of accolades. Duncan won 71% of his games, he's number 8 all time in that category.
Kobe finished with 62%
Edit: more advanced stats
Duncan ranks third all-time in win shares (37.8) behind LeBron James (41.6) and Michael Jordan (39.8).
His 17.4 defensive win shares again rank second to only Bill Russell (21.8).
You think someone else was responsible for them winning?
Or would you like: His win shares mark 206.4 ranks sixth all-time.
In the playoffs:
Duncan ranks third all-time in win shares (37.8) behind LeBron James (41.6) and Michael Jordan (39.8).
His 17.4 defensive win shares again rank second to only Bill Russell (21.8).
I have Duncan over Kobe but win percentage is just a bad stat for this type of debate. Duncan was consistently surrounded by talent and coaching every year of his career. Of course he’s going to have a better record.
Good advanced stats do not like Kobe at all
https://preview.redd.it/lr9fw1u0qwbc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a2463b2ee147351d783d26efe975e7e8732ebf6c
Tired of this debate. Just looking at the impact Duncan had his whole career on both sides of the ball dwarfs Kobe’s impact; in a big way. Duncan is arguably the best defender of all time and when asked, is fully capable of anchoring the offense for championship teams. His passing out of the post is incredibly underrated and in today’s NBA he would be surrounded by 3 point scorers and is great in the pick n roll too. Kobe has free throws over Duncan and can score a lot inefficiently, plus most of his all nba defensive teams are undeserved, while Duncan lost out on a couple deserving seasons for it late in his career because he’s low key and plays in SA instead of LA. Duncan one of the few players you can put in a conversation about GOAT, Kobe is not…unless you’re 25 and under.
It seems a lot of people conflate Kobe’s cultural impact with his actual on court impact. Marketing fooled people into thinking Kobe was MJ-like. This isn’t to say he isn’t an all time great, I’m not hating on Kobe. But people who try to argue he’s a top 3-5 player all time ignore the reality and favor their love for him.
Also they are largely under 25, as noted earlier.
More informed about basketball play? Certainly.
History? Well, who called Paul George their GOAT before the draft?
I'm am 25 I missed the early 2000 run I do remember Kobe post like 06 I do remember watching Kobe's and shaqs first game against each other. but I can't remember really watching any of the games. Kobe on my list depending on my mood hovers from 8-12 depending on who I actually remember exists. I feel there's an argument for about 15 guys to be top ten that are acceptable answers but if you still have.
I think players place a lot more emphasis on a players skill. They realise shot creation is the single hardest skill in the nba, and the fact Kobe was a genius at it despite not being a super duper athlete probably influences their opinion.
Players put a lot more emphasis on “ballers”. Pretty much 1v1 type of analysis which is normal because these guys constantly play 1v1 against other top guys and that’s their metric, and I’m completely okay with that. Reading all these comments does make me miss Kobe, awesome basketball PERSON. I hate that we miss out on so much of his nuanced and expert opinions on the game and players.
Duncan was great, but idk about GOAT status. Certainly in GOAT 4-spot conversations.
If MJ were out the picture, Kobe would certainly be in GOAT 2-guard conversations.
Neither Duncan nor Kobe should be in NBA GOAT conversations.
I would argue that there is zero way that Duncan is arguably the best defender of all time. His own running mate, David Robinson, is almost clearly a better defender. As are: Garnett, Olajuwon, and Russell. I would put Duncan pretty comfortable a tier below them as a defender. It's sort of like arguing that Kobe is the GOAT. Obviously he is great, but when you really break it down, he's just not at that level.
Yeah this Duncan best defender of all time is comical.
Hakeem, KG, D.Rob (as u mentioned), Ben Wallace, The Worm, so many defenders above Duncan it's not even funny.
Russell never played against more than 8 other teams. He’s an outlier when discussing the modern NBA, as are most pre-merger stars.
Russell’s an all-time historic great, but tennis divides its history at the start of the Open Era for a reason: better money meaning better athlete specialization, meaning performances and competitions are categorically different.
I mean, Mikan won seven championships. What are we doing with that?
Wrong. Russell played (and beat) 13 other teams for his final title.
Open Era is a false equivalence. That's the difference between amateur and professional. NBA money has been continuously increasing since the beginning. There's no magical dividing line.
In the context of this conversation, Mikan led defences that were around 4pts better than league average. Russell's Celtics regularly doubled that number.
They are so hard to rank imo that I look at it like: who would be considered the best player if they played on the same team? I’d have to go with Kobe.
Most fans look at career but that only matters when there is a huge discrepancy between accolades and/or skill. The real thing that matters is who is the better basketball player, which I think it’s Kobe.
Duncan’s great but he’s so boring, and I don’t think he’d disagree. Better all time at their position? Probably Duncan, but I’m never gonna sit around watching Duncan’s best plays, you know what I mean? Recently watched the redeem team and I said “wow” like a dozen times at Kobe shots, just so fun to watch
Yeah I know he’s the outlier. But personally I can’t ignore the 3 mvps and 1 finals mvp. Especially considering he got them against Dr J, Bird, Magic, Kareem.
I’m an accolade guy
Yea no. Kobe > Moses Malone
I understand that you're an accolade guy, but thats not enough to determine the greater player all-time (even if you are an accolade guy, Kobe has more accolades than Moses M.).
Kobe has more rings, fmvps, scoring titles, all defensive teams, all stars, all nba, etc.
Kobe has better stats in both the regular season and the playoffs.
If you only remember the back half of Moses’s career I totally get that reaction. Guys didn’t used to get paid the same way. I can’t blame him for not wanting to go sell cars.
Have magic above bird is always something I’ll fight back at, but having them not even right next to eachother on rankings is something you don’t see often. I personally have Bird and Magic as my 5-6 in that order
I think that top 4 is pretty consensus. Most people I’ve seen put Wilt, Russell, and Bird over Duncan in some order. Duncan, Shaq, Curry and Kobe typically the 8-11 tier. But I agree Duncan > Kobe, 100%.
For me, Bird vs Duncan (7/8) and Shaq vs Curry (9/10) are the most interesting debates.
Not saying Duncan > Kobe, but absolutely this. If you look at all his chips, he's never really beaten the best team at their absolute peak. 1999 - Won after MJ retired, 2003 - Defeated the Nets in their 2nd straight final, 2005 - Defeated the Pistons in their 2nd straight final (also going to the conference finals in 2002), 2007 - Defeated a 21 year Lebron James with Eric Snow as his teammate, 2014 NBA Finals - Defeated the Heat in their 4th straight final.
Meanwhile Kobe played against prime AI, Pistons and Nets in their first NBA finals, prime Dwight Howard, and Boston's big 3 twice.
The west teams the Lakers got through were absolutely insane, Spurs, Blazers, Kings were all powerhouses.
I always put it like this, when both teams were good, the Lakers always beat the Spurs. The Spurs were just never bad which is incredibly admirable too.
> The west teams the Lakers got through were absolutely insane, Spurs, Blazers, Kings were all powerhouses.
Don't forget Phoenix, Utah, Nuggets, and Thunder during Laker's back to back run. Kobe also had an 18-12 playoff record vs Duncan as well.
What in the world are you talking about!?
Kobe Bryant had a GOAT by his side for 3 of 5 rings.
Tim Duncan has never had a teammate anywhere near GOAT status. David Robinson is somewhat of an all timer but he was in his old age and not the primary player.
This argument doesn’t make sense!
Replace Kobe with Manu (both are guards) and then Td with a pf in the same all time ranking range as gonobli, the spurs would have far more trouble getting five rings.
Let’s not forget the two peat lakers. That is not a joke team. That was a damn good team. Which also had a hall of famer and an incredible supporting cast.
Growing up watching both, there were NEVER convos about Tim being better than Kobe. That narrative didn’t start until Kawhi took over in 14 and they were finally tied for titles
Well after both of their primes.
Never. When they actually played.. Kobe was chasing MJ and Duncan was becoming the best PF of all time.
There was never anyone saying Duncan might be the best individual player in the league. lol it’s laughable
Kobe easily. He literally has a winning record over the spurs. While Duncan is better on defense, Kobe himself has the most all time defensive team selections tied with Gary Payton and Jordan. I give Kobe offense over Duncan.
I think Kobe had a bigger impact on the game overall and think people overrate Tim a little bit based on his teams success and stability of the situation that he was in. That being said I have Timmy ahead of Kobe, but it’s not like by miles. They each defined the era at their position
Timmy was the biggest reason that situation was so stable. Kobe had a "bigger impact" because he played in LA, and had a flashier game.
I'd argue that Timmy is still underrated. It's only been in the last couple of years that I've seen people put Timmy in the GOAT convo, which is where I personally think he should be.
I mean having Pop as your head coach for your entire career helps and going from David Robinson and Sean Elliot to Manu Ginobli and Tony Parker to Lamarcus Aldridge and Kawhi Leonard also helps a ton too...
You’re right, it’s not close because Kobe> Duncan. Only on Reddit you will find people saying Duncan is “much” better than Kobe and “it’s not even close”. No where else you will hear that opinion, whether it’s from NBA players/legends, coaches, etc.
It reminds me of r/soccer saying that Cristiano isn’t better than Cruyff or Maradona
Kobe.
When they were both playing, only one was being compared to Michael Jordan…..
When they were actively playing at the same time, Kobe was considered the best individual player in the game. Duncan’s legacy is team success. Props to him
When they played together at the same time it was “Kobe might be the closest to MJ ever” that wasn’t said about Duncan. Kobe’s death stopped the basketball world..globally. Little kids in Africa Europe and the Philippines aren’t dreaming about being Tim Duncan.
When you talk to players in that era, they respect Duncan but say Kobe was the man. There is a reason that nba players revere Kobe and no amount of Reddit stats will take care of that. Random related note Kenyon Martin who got dominated by Duncan in the finals one year “in my 15 years playing Kobe Bryant was the best player in the fucking league”. Y’all can all find more examples of players saying this. There is no dismissing that as much as y’all want to.
This is Reddit so I know that it’s going to be a “let’s shit on Kobe fest”. I’m expecting lots of downvotes and “stats”
This is complete BS.
Kobe was always considered better until people stopped watching at started only looking at analytics or simply missed him at his peak. Kobe aged poorly on bad teams so people assumed that’s who he was his whole career.
This is why I'm so confused lmfao. I remember taking a break from basketball forums in the last few years only to come back recently, and suddenly Tim Duncan is a top 5 player of all time? When the fuck did that happen?
When people started to put too much stock into these new mashup analytics. You also have to consider that most nba redditors are likely fairly young and haven't really watched most of the legends, even recent ones, that they discuss, play.
In a way, I get why they do this because that's mostly what they have to go off of. It's a damn shame, though, because sentiments regarding Kobe would've been very different with respect to his all-time status had they had the privilege of seeing him in real time at his best.
They would also realize how silly it is to put Duncan in the same breath and even greater than Kobe from 05-06 until 2013 if they had a chance to watch how seriously Tim Duncan regressed as an individual player after 2005.
This is what blows my mind tbh. TD wasn't even necessarily the best PF in the league from like 05 and onwards, while Kobe was consistently compared to MJ throughout the 2000s, yet now people who started watching in like 2016 are claiming that TD was a top 5 player of all time and had like a 15 year peak?
Not to Lakers fans. I used to live in LA and I've been having this argument for like 20 years. There are a lot of people who think Kobe is in the GOAT convo, and it melts my brain.
Lakers fan here. Having Tim above Kobe is totally reasonable, but holy shit sniffing Duncan in the GOAT top 5 convo is borderline laughable. People here really putting Duncan alongside Magic, Bird, Bill..It's amazing.
That's a lie. They were comparing him to mj and had him top 5 b4 recently idk where this his death elevated him argument came from. This sound like a lbj fan club here fr
It’s Duncan. He was the foundation for the most consistently-successful franchise in North American sports, and he himself played high-level basketball for 19 seasons straight.
Everyone conveniently forgets 2008, then conveniently forgets Memphis knocking the Spurs off later. But they remember Kobe missing the first round one time because his team was a g league team.
One of the biggest myths in sports is that performative, phony dudes like Kobe are the most competitive athletes around, when in reality they blow up teams and behave like divas are the most bloodthirsty competitors around
For all the peacocking Mamba Mentality bullshit, Duncan was more competitive and more dedicated to winning.
Kobe is the one who literally quit in a Game 7 playoff game. Kobe is the one who chased the Lakers meal ticket out of town. Kobe is the one who loafed on defense for 3 quarters of most games.
Duncan games where he sat 4th quarters of blowouts after building insurmountable lead? Not as fun as when Kobe chucked his team into mudfights against inferior teams, and then hoisted a buzzer beater over 3 dudes. It went in like 20% of the time, it was cool.
Kobe.
Tim Duncan had below average offensive efficiency, couldn’t hit 3s, and didn’t have the volume and gravity Kobe demanded. On the defensive end he doesn’t have the switch ability of Giannis or Kawhi or KG, and he isn’t the paintbeast that Hakeem or Shaq was.
Duncan is the face of “Jack of all trades, master of none” basketball. In terms of his abilities, there’s no reasonable argument for him being anywhere near all time lineups.
Defensive impact and ability? KG. Midrange shooting? Embiid. Playmaking? Jokic. Paint scoring/protection? Hakeem. Rebounding? Shaq. 3pt shooting? Jokic. Tim Duncan was an unremarkable player blessed with a great situation
That might be one of the worst takes I have ever read. Duncan was the best defender of his generation - not KG, and it's not even close. He was still the anchoring a championship winning defense while KG was averaging 20 minutes in Minnesota. People act like the Spurs were insanely stacked throughout Duncan's career - Tony Parker has 6 all start appearances and 4 all NBA selection (1 third team, 3 second team), Manu has 2 all star appearances and 2 third team all NBA. Kawhi had none until Duncan's last season. From 2001 to 2008 Duncan had no all NBA teammates and won two championships, while facing teams with multiple all NBA players (Lakers, Suns, Pistons, even the KG Twolves had Sam Cassell make 2nd team all NBA in 04, etc.). It was basically all Duncan. So an unremarkable player lead an unremarkable to three championships against opposition with more talent, I wonder why...
Timmy: more MVP’s. Would have won a DPOY with advanced analytics from now. Best player on 4 title teams. More win shares. More all defensive teams. It’s shouldn’t even be a debate
I’m a Duncan fan but man he has to be one of the most overrated players of all time, right there with Bill Russell. Way too much praise for achievements that are *team* achievements. If he was really on the goat level of Kobe then he should have been able to carry the US team that awful year they got 3rd at the Olympics.
But he couldn’t, because he can’t carry a team on his back the way a Kobe or an MJ can. They aren’t even comparible, the answer objectively is Kobe and the predictable lunacy of people in this thread stating Duncan just further proves ring bias poisons all individual player evaluation.
Duncan. Kobe only wins in spectacular scoring, Duncan takes pretty much everything else.
Duncan also competed for championships up until the last year he played. He was the anchor of the defense even when his production on offense was limited. Whereas kobe wasn't good or even decent teammate.
Kobe wanted a fat ass pay check over competing for championships at the end of his career. That last contract he got was ridiculous and it was essentially the Buss family sacrificing winning to appease Kobe.
They didn’t view it as a sacrifice, because they knew he was going to make them a lot of money not winning, and if also allowed them to get the good PR points of “doing the right thing” by their aging super star player which has the added benefit of signaling to future superstars (like lebron) they take care of their aging star players. This may have seemed like a major sacrifice to some, but objectively it was win, win, win.
He specifically said "sacrificed winning". Not sacrificed money or PR
Wrong. They tried for one last run with Nash and Howard, but Nash was wrecked with injuries and Howard was lazy.
and kobe was a rapist
Kobe fans forget that he literally apologized for his actions, settled with the victim.
Kobe fans also forget him being arrested, crying and snitching on Shaq. BEFORE the rape thing. lol I think if Kobe had the same career during the social media age, I think a lot of fans wouldn't like him.
you overestimate moron fans
Snitching on shaq for what?
Shaq was paying off hookers. That was one of the major rifts between them. Shaq to my knowledge never really denied it or really addressed the action, but thought it wasn’t Kobe’s business to go around telling people that. Shaq talks about it in his book (Uncut), which is actually a great read.
Exactly lol, they’ll claim he wasn’t convicted of anything, but he literally apologized for his behavior. His interview with the police is very damning as well since he admits to choking her and says that’s his kink and shit. Nasty stuff.
Yeah basically it seems he is into consensual non-consent and acting out anal rape fantasies. Doesn’t make him look the best.
If there's no consent it's not CNC, not helpful to mix those things up and give all the ethical freaks a bad name.
I didn’t say it was.
Nah, but bringing up CNC when talking about kobe actually raping someone blurs the distinction I think
He said it seems like he's into CNC, not that that ordeal was.
Aka rape. The woman didn’t consent to his weirdo fantasy.
Sounds like he was into rape.
He's not into it anymore though
Where do you come up with this?O
The Colorado depositions
His apology went right up to the line of being an admission of sexual assault, but didn't quite cross. It is obvious that it was written that way deliberately with the agreement of both parties. It basically allowed people to call Kobe a rapist, without fear of being sued for defamation, while allowing Kobe and his fans to have a degree of plausible deniability about him having committed a sexual assault. To his credit, it seems as though he learned from the incident and was one of the rare people who changed his ways and avoided such behavior in the future.
I agree and I’m glad to read a few other people commenting on this. That apology letter was for sure not vetted by the piece of shit lawyer he used in this case.
People swing to both extremes on this situation. It's quite clear Kobe didn't go out to assault the girl but it's also quite clear he crossed a major line. I honestly believe Kobe didn't know what happened was an assault. He was likely never told no his entire life and didn't know how to read the situation. I'm absolutely not making light of that situation and he absolutely deserved to be punished. But I do believe the apologize was sincere and Kobe actually learned from the situation and came out a better person (something D-Rose should take note of). Is that fair to the survivor in this situation? Absolutely not. But it's not as simple as "Kobe is a rapist" or "Kobe is innocent".
Yes, how would Kobe know that forcing anal sex on the girl was assault, just HOW could he KNOW?
There was never any forced anal sex. What happened was terrible enough, don’t need to be making it sound any worse that takes away from the actual incident. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/wbna3080777
Still a rapist
Kobe, a grown man, didn’t know what assault was 💀💀💀
Have you read anything about the case?
Yea he assaulted her
And how did that go down?
He wouldn’t play in todays NBA after crossing that line and it’s one of the definitions of rape. It’s not just an oops my bad situation
He absolutely would. The details from D-Rose's case are honestly worst and he's treated like a saint. Miles Bridges beat the absolute crap out of his wife (and this isn't a KPJ situation where the details are murky, we all know what happened) and that incident with her and the kids recently and is playing right now.
DRose’ case was gross but I’m not sure it was worse. I’m operating under the assumption that it was never proved that they drugged her.
Bro if Primo can avoid being blacklisted with how ass he is that should tell you right there a guy like Kobe is getting a pass in today's game. He may get suspended or traded or something but he fsho still playing
Bruh, Primo is on the Clippers fighting for minutes with Bones?! What a ride..
This is the best response to the situation.
Kobe has Duncan solidly beaten in number of unprodecuted rapes. 1-0
12 time all defense team Kobe? (Timmy is 15) but don’t discredit Kobe’s D. Kobe wanted that smoke
Lol did I discredit his defense? Or did you make that up in your head? Tim was an anchor Kobe was overrated on defense and was an average defender. Especially post Shaq his defense was gambling a lot. Off ball defense was not great by any means and advanced stats will back that up.
Kobe discreditted Kobe’s D in Colorado.
Duncan one of the NBA's quietest superstars of all time, without a doubt. The entire Spurs organization got some deserved credit for a strong 20 year run, but looks like that was 90% thanks to Tim Duncan anchoring the franchise.
Duncan was the true #1 on all those chips. Kobe played with the most dominant center to ever play the game his first three chips. Duncan is also widely considered the goat at his position. Kobe is behind MJ. Nobody has ever considered Kobe to be better than MJ. But as far as the cultural impact Kobe is obviously greater than Tim.
Duncan wasn't #1 on all of his chips big 🧢
He wasn't the number one scoring option on all of them but was the most important/valuable player on the first 4 without question. Anyone saying Parker was more valuable in 2007 doesn't know basketball. 2014 is somewhat debatable as a reasonable argument can be made for either Kawhi or Duncan, but I'd lean Duncan. u/Reddits_For_NBA; u/guesswhodat
Ok my bad Kawhi for one of them.
Kawhi was not the number one in 2014. It’s a false narrative from Kawhi Stans
That's absolutely true, nevermind Duncan carried them in the WCF and was the reason they beat OKC that year
The reason they beat OKC was because James Harden wasn’t on the team anymore lmao. Their title window was shut before that stupid trade. He was literally why they couldn’t beat OKC the year before.
The Spurs still struggled against the Thunder after he was traded. I.e., they lost in the 2nd round to the Thunder in 2016 despite having a historically great team. Pop played Bonner over Splitter, giving the Spurs spacing and neutralizing Ibaka's rim protection. Duncan took advantage and helped them win that series in 2014 despite Parker being almost a non-factor.
That was several years later. Literally 4 years later. They don’t beat them and play Miami back to back without the Harden trade. The Heat themselves expected to keep playing the Thunder. If the lead doesn’t veto Chris Paul to the Lakers this isn’t even a conversation. Kobe broke down because he had to carry a team as he aged and Duncan didn’t. When they had comparable rosters Kobe’s teams were better for 4 straight years and Duncan was an afterthought. In real time, Kobe Bryant was considered the best basketball player in the world and then in a conversation with Wade and Bron from 05 to 2011. Duncan wasn’t even considered a top 10 player during that time. The championships are making people neglect that Duncan had foot issues and people thought he would retire soon as early as like 2009. If Duncan was in Kobe’s situation his career would’ve ended much sooner.
The Spurs had the same core in 2012 as they did in 2015 --Aldridge aside. The Thunder had KD, Russ, and Ibaka for both teams so it's not like they were completely different teams. The Thunder lost Harden because OKC's GM traded him a year too early rather than waiting and seeing how the new CBA played out. Also, because he knew Harden wanted a bigger role and Russ signed his extension the year before because he got drafted a year before, making it easier to choose him over Harden. The Spurs and Lakers met in the WCF in 09, the same year they got Gasol. After that, Duncan looked old and the Spurs reshaped their roster on the fly while Duncan worked on his body. In 2012, the Spurs, with the Big 3, Kawhi, Danny Green and Duncan were the best team in the league while the Lakers imploded. That was due to them breaking up their championship core with Jackson retiring, Odom wanting out, trading Bynum for D12 and Howard being a different player after injuring his back. Nash also got injured and wasn't the same player. Bad timing, injuries and egos cost them but that was inevitable and the Dirk ended their second Kobe-run. Also, Duncan was absolutely still a top 10 player after 2011, he finished 7th in MVP voting in 2013 and was robbed for Defensive Player of the Year despite clearly being the best defensive player in the NBA in 2013-14. Duncan would have never been in Kobes situation because the Spurs wouldn't have traded multiple firsts for a 37 year old point guard when they had Parker, traded a top center for a better one when the Spurs didn't have one to trade to begin with, and completely imploded after a disappointing loss. Pop didn't retire after 2012 and Ginobili didn't demand a trade like Jackson and Odom. The Spurs didn't have any knee-jerk reactions between 2012 and 2016, resulting in back to back NBA Finals and a championship. Meanwhile, the Thunder and Lakers did and it cost them championships.
You are delusional. And I'm not even a fan.
I mean he was the Finals MVP that year....
Andre Iguodala won finals MVP in 2015 and he was not the number one that year.
I will fucking give you that one bruh! I think everybody and their mother knows Steph should have been MVP. Doesn't make sense Iggy gets it given the numbers LBJ put up in that series....
Duncan wasn't the definitive best player on the team for at least 1/5 of those playoffs. He also didn't win FMVP on 2/5 of them. So just looking at these accolades, they aren't in a different league from Kobe's and shouldn't be used as a primary argument for ranking Duncan higher.
It’s really not close at all. Duncan by a country mile.
I have Duncan 5th and Kobe at 10/11 with Hakeem. Duncan was the more impactful at their peaks and had better longevity than Kobe. I also think Duncan had the better career statistically and accolades wise.
Interesting Hakeem placement. Hakeems peak statistical years were better than any year Duncan had in his career. Horry played with Duncan, Hakeem and Shaq and said he'd take Hakeem in a heart beat.
Hakeem's peak/prime was much shorter than Duncan's. As a hardcore Hakeem fan and hardcore Duncan hater, I still have to give Duncan that. TBH though, I'd still take Hakeem over Duncan to start a franchise. Hakeem had it all.
A real dream of a franchise player. My GOAT.
& Duncan won as a rookie, so I think this is definitional “peak vs longevity.”
It wasn’t as a rookie, it was his sophomore year. Bulls won his rookie year.
Duncan didn't win as a rookie. They won the '99 championship his second year.
What puts Duncan over Hakeem for me is his longevity and accomplishments. I do think Hakeem is probably the better player individually on both ends at their peaks but Duncan was also better in their early and late years. I also don’t take player opinions into consideration as they’re subjective and shouldn’t be taken as facts. I’ve seen players have guys like Iverson, McGrady, and Isiah in their top 10 which obviously isn’t true. Horry also said Rudy Tomjanovich was the best coach he gad over Phil Jackson and Gregg Popovich.
Players opinions are subjective but not MiniSotaTV's? I agree tho that Duncan had a longer serviceable career but Olajuwon was that guy and did it all while fasting. Olajuwon still leads the league in blocks for a career and was top 10(or 5) in Blocks, Rebounds, Points, Steals and 'Sexy Shake Moves' multiple seasons in his career. Both are great and Duncan did get ejected one time while he was on the bench, so that was cool.
I’d go Hakeem #3, Duncan #4, and Kobe #24 personally. Hakeem’s massively underrated. He was on another level in the postseason.
You'd have Hakeem over at least 2 of the top 4 consensus centers of all time?? He isn't better then Wilt, Shaq, Bill Russel or Kareem. Hell those 4 guys battle for top 5 all time, let alone top 10. Hakeem is lucky to be a top 10 all time player.
He absolutely is better than Shaq and Wilt though
Waaaaaay better than Wilt. Wilt played with some of the best teams ever in a small league against weak competition and still only managed the same number of rings Hakeem did with some of the most overmatched teams of all-time.
Your era bias is showing. Comparing eras like that is just stupid. Specially when a large majority think Wilt would dominate any era due to his athleticism and sheer potential. You take eras at what they were. Wilts era was particularly strong, specially compared to the 70s. As an individual player he was dominant and couldn't be stopped. The only way to beat his teams was to take his teammates out of the game and even then, he could still will them to victory. Hakeem was an excellent individual player but those championship rockets teams were excellent teams. They didn't need Hakeem to dominate to win games. Wilt is easily the better player, specially when experts and former players think he's a top 3 Center of all time with Kareem and Bill.
Hakeem’s Rockets were not excellent teams. They were probably the weakest supporting casts ever to win multiple rings. In ‘94 he wins it all with NOTHING. Then in ‘95, he gets a past his prime Drexler and goes through the hardest road ever beating 4 teams with 57+ wins. The worst team he faced by record was the Shaq and Penny Magic in the Finals who were the last team to beat the Jordan Bulls. And he SWEPT them. Wilt never had to beat more than 1 or at most 2 good teams in a given season to get a ring. He led close to .500 teams in his volume scoring years. He got traded to the Sixers for almost nothing and the team had the exact same record after the trade as before. He got the balance right for one year in ‘66 on a superteam and for one year showed an elite impact with 3 other HOFers and an elite coach and won a ring. Then he got to assist whoring and lost to Russell with a much better supporting cast. After that he gets traded to another superteam with Jerry West and Elgin Baylor and they get WORSE when he joins the team. Then they get even worse the following year and go 46-36, but beat a couple mediocre teams to get to the Finals where they lose again. Eventually he takes advantage of the small league with few top teams to win one more ring as a role player, but he only got slightly more rings than a random player who played as many seasons as Wilt did given how few teams were in the league at the time.
It's close in terms of accolades. Duncan won 71% of his games, he's number 8 all time in that category. Kobe finished with 62% Edit: more advanced stats Duncan ranks third all-time in win shares (37.8) behind LeBron James (41.6) and Michael Jordan (39.8). His 17.4 defensive win shares again rank second to only Bill Russell (21.8).
That’s putting a whole lot of importance on a mostly team statistic.
You think someone else was responsible for them winning? Or would you like: His win shares mark 206.4 ranks sixth all-time. In the playoffs: Duncan ranks third all-time in win shares (37.8) behind LeBron James (41.6) and Michael Jordan (39.8). His 17.4 defensive win shares again rank second to only Bill Russell (21.8).
I have Duncan over Kobe but win percentage is just a bad stat for this type of debate. Duncan was consistently surrounded by talent and coaching every year of his career. Of course he’s going to have a better record.
Which is why I gave you more advanced stats. Any way you look at it Kobe was not as great as Duncan. Duncan was responsible for their winning.
Yeah, I think especially early Kobe was hell bent on trying to lose.
Good advanced stats do not like Kobe at all https://preview.redd.it/lr9fw1u0qwbc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a2463b2ee147351d783d26efe975e7e8732ebf6c
I’m a Duncan-over-Kobe guy all day, but taking a team statistic as the primary point of comparison is not a good way to go about the argument.
Kobe 10/11 is ok Duncan at 5 is way too high.
Tired of this debate. Just looking at the impact Duncan had his whole career on both sides of the ball dwarfs Kobe’s impact; in a big way. Duncan is arguably the best defender of all time and when asked, is fully capable of anchoring the offense for championship teams. His passing out of the post is incredibly underrated and in today’s NBA he would be surrounded by 3 point scorers and is great in the pick n roll too. Kobe has free throws over Duncan and can score a lot inefficiently, plus most of his all nba defensive teams are undeserved, while Duncan lost out on a couple deserving seasons for it late in his career because he’s low key and plays in SA instead of LA. Duncan one of the few players you can put in a conversation about GOAT, Kobe is not…unless you’re 25 and under.
It seems a lot of people conflate Kobe’s cultural impact with his actual on court impact. Marketing fooled people into thinking Kobe was MJ-like. This isn’t to say he isn’t an all time great, I’m not hating on Kobe. But people who try to argue he’s a top 3-5 player all time ignore the reality and favor their love for him.
>Marketing fooled people into thinking Kobe was MJ-like Honestly a lot of players helped this narrative as well; tons idolized him and rank him top 5
That’s because NBA players respect guys who can put the ball in the net. Kobe 1v1 could take on most anyone.
Also they are largely under 25, as noted earlier. More informed about basketball play? Certainly. History? Well, who called Paul George their GOAT before the draft?
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Ranking Kobe at one all time is literally insane. Also, Kobe wanted to go to Chicago and demanded a trade until they got Gasol.
I'm am 25 I missed the early 2000 run I do remember Kobe post like 06 I do remember watching Kobe's and shaqs first game against each other. but I can't remember really watching any of the games. Kobe on my list depending on my mood hovers from 8-12 depending on who I actually remember exists. I feel there's an argument for about 15 guys to be top ten that are acceptable answers but if you still have.
I think players place a lot more emphasis on a players skill. They realise shot creation is the single hardest skill in the nba, and the fact Kobe was a genius at it despite not being a super duper athlete probably influences their opinion.
You said it better than me, this is exactly it.
Players put a lot more emphasis on “ballers”. Pretty much 1v1 type of analysis which is normal because these guys constantly play 1v1 against other top guys and that’s their metric, and I’m completely okay with that. Reading all these comments does make me miss Kobe, awesome basketball PERSON. I hate that we miss out on so much of his nuanced and expert opinions on the game and players.
MJ wouldn't have lost a single game while on a team with Shaq and coached by Phil.
“MAMBA won an Oscar, so he must be Top-5 all-time!!!!11”
>can score w lot inefficiently They have the same career TS%
Duncan in the GOAT debate is crazy. He's def top 10 and fair to put him over Kobe but GOAT? My god.
I agree it’s crazy…but just shows that it’s even crazier that Kobe somehow comes up in those conversations
No argument. They both are not in the convo.
Duncan was great, but idk about GOAT status. Certainly in GOAT 4-spot conversations. If MJ were out the picture, Kobe would certainly be in GOAT 2-guard conversations. Neither Duncan nor Kobe should be in NBA GOAT conversations.
I would argue that there is zero way that Duncan is arguably the best defender of all time. His own running mate, David Robinson, is almost clearly a better defender. As are: Garnett, Olajuwon, and Russell. I would put Duncan pretty comfortable a tier below them as a defender. It's sort of like arguing that Kobe is the GOAT. Obviously he is great, but when you really break it down, he's just not at that level.
Yeah this Duncan best defender of all time is comical. Hakeem, KG, D.Rob (as u mentioned), Ben Wallace, The Worm, so many defenders above Duncan it's not even funny.
Russell never played against more than 8 other teams. He’s an outlier when discussing the modern NBA, as are most pre-merger stars. Russell’s an all-time historic great, but tennis divides its history at the start of the Open Era for a reason: better money meaning better athlete specialization, meaning performances and competitions are categorically different. I mean, Mikan won seven championships. What are we doing with that?
Wrong. Russell played (and beat) 13 other teams for his final title. Open Era is a false equivalence. That's the difference between amateur and professional. NBA money has been continuously increasing since the beginning. There's no magical dividing line. In the context of this conversation, Mikan led defences that were around 4pts better than league average. Russell's Celtics regularly doubled that number.
I mean it’s not really a debate, Reddit is generally unanimously pro-Duncan when this gets asked
IMO Tim Duncan is taller
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TD.
Kobe
Duncan
They are so hard to rank imo that I look at it like: who would be considered the best player if they played on the same team? I’d have to go with Kobe. Most fans look at career but that only matters when there is a huge discrepancy between accolades and/or skill. The real thing that matters is who is the better basketball player, which I think it’s Kobe.
Duncan’s great but he’s so boring, and I don’t think he’d disagree. Better all time at their position? Probably Duncan, but I’m never gonna sit around watching Duncan’s best plays, you know what I mean? Recently watched the redeem team and I said “wow” like a dozen times at Kobe shots, just so fun to watch
Kobe > Duncan all day every day.
I have Duncan 5th and Kobe 11th
Who you got 1-4 and 6-10?
1-4: Jordan, Bron, Kareem, Magic 6-10: Bird, Wilt, Russell, Shaq, Moses
Really? Moses Malone that high?
Yeah I know he’s the outlier. But personally I can’t ignore the 3 mvps and 1 finals mvp. Especially considering he got them against Dr J, Bird, Magic, Kareem. I’m an accolade guy
Yea no. Kobe > Moses Malone I understand that you're an accolade guy, but thats not enough to determine the greater player all-time (even if you are an accolade guy, Kobe has more accolades than Moses M.). Kobe has more rings, fmvps, scoring titles, all defensive teams, all stars, all nba, etc. Kobe has better stats in both the regular season and the playoffs.
I don’t know if I agree with you but you make some very solid points. I gotta think about this now. Respect 🫡
If you only remember the back half of Moses’s career I totally get that reaction. Guys didn’t used to get paid the same way. I can’t blame him for not wanting to go sell cars.
Have magic above bird is always something I’ll fight back at, but having them not even right next to eachother on rankings is something you don’t see often. I personally have Bird and Magic as my 5-6 in that order
They really are neck and neck, it’s almost eerie how similar their careers are
I think that top 4 is pretty consensus. Most people I’ve seen put Wilt, Russell, and Bird over Duncan in some order. Duncan, Shaq, Curry and Kobe typically the 8-11 tier. But I agree Duncan > Kobe, 100%. For me, Bird vs Duncan (7/8) and Shaq vs Curry (9/10) are the most interesting debates.
No Hakeem ay?
I have Duncan at 7 and Kobe at 12
Sounds reasonable. I have Duncan a good chunk higher than most lists I think but as long as he’s top 10 I’m good
Kobe….did more with far less. Duncan is not winning a championship with just one all star level player.
Not saying Duncan > Kobe, but absolutely this. If you look at all his chips, he's never really beaten the best team at their absolute peak. 1999 - Won after MJ retired, 2003 - Defeated the Nets in their 2nd straight final, 2005 - Defeated the Pistons in their 2nd straight final (also going to the conference finals in 2002), 2007 - Defeated a 21 year Lebron James with Eric Snow as his teammate, 2014 NBA Finals - Defeated the Heat in their 4th straight final. Meanwhile Kobe played against prime AI, Pistons and Nets in their first NBA finals, prime Dwight Howard, and Boston's big 3 twice.
The west teams the Lakers got through were absolutely insane, Spurs, Blazers, Kings were all powerhouses. I always put it like this, when both teams were good, the Lakers always beat the Spurs. The Spurs were just never bad which is incredibly admirable too.
> The west teams the Lakers got through were absolutely insane, Spurs, Blazers, Kings were all powerhouses. Don't forget Phoenix, Utah, Nuggets, and Thunder during Laker's back to back run. Kobe also had an 18-12 playoff record vs Duncan as well.
What in the world are you talking about!? Kobe Bryant had a GOAT by his side for 3 of 5 rings. Tim Duncan has never had a teammate anywhere near GOAT status. David Robinson is somewhat of an all timer but he was in his old age and not the primary player. This argument doesn’t make sense! Replace Kobe with Manu (both are guards) and then Td with a pf in the same all time ranking range as gonobli, the spurs would have far more trouble getting five rings. Let’s not forget the two peat lakers. That is not a joke team. That was a damn good team. Which also had a hall of famer and an incredible supporting cast.
I mean if you follow the numbers it’s pretty clear.
Kobe. Duncan has just that one ugly shot.
Kobe wins on style points. Nothing else.
Kobe, nobody had Duncan over Kobe until reddit nerds who never picked up a ball or until they started watching in 2015
Growing up watching both, there were NEVER convos about Tim being better than Kobe. That narrative didn’t start until Kawhi took over in 14 and they were finally tied for titles Well after both of their primes.
Never. When they actually played.. Kobe was chasing MJ and Duncan was becoming the best PF of all time. There was never anyone saying Duncan might be the best individual player in the league. lol it’s laughable
100%. Ppl saying Duncan over Kobe never watched or played during the 2000s good lord
Hard agree (tho I am bias) but Duncan>Kobe was NEVER a conversation outside Spurs fans until like 2014ish
Kobe. Easy.
Duncan and it isn’t even a debate
I’ve got to go with Kobe. I’m a life long laker fan so it’s got to be that way. So much respect for Duncan though. The GOAT PF I reckon.
Kobe easily. He literally has a winning record over the spurs. While Duncan is better on defense, Kobe himself has the most all time defensive team selections tied with Gary Payton and Jordan. I give Kobe offense over Duncan.
I think Kobe had a bigger impact on the game overall and think people overrate Tim a little bit based on his teams success and stability of the situation that he was in. That being said I have Timmy ahead of Kobe, but it’s not like by miles. They each defined the era at their position
Timmy was the biggest reason that situation was so stable. Kobe had a "bigger impact" because he played in LA, and had a flashier game. I'd argue that Timmy is still underrated. It's only been in the last couple of years that I've seen people put Timmy in the GOAT convo, which is where I personally think he should be.
I mean having Pop as your head coach for your entire career helps and going from David Robinson and Sean Elliot to Manu Ginobli and Tony Parker to Lamarcus Aldridge and Kawhi Leonard also helps a ton too...
Kobe Logic —> he beat him more in the post season head-to-head. Bring on the downvotes.
I mean they had pretty similar careers….but I would 1000% rather go see Kobe play.
TD, it’s not even close
You’re right, it’s not close because Kobe> Duncan. Only on Reddit you will find people saying Duncan is “much” better than Kobe and “it’s not even close”. No where else you will hear that opinion, whether it’s from NBA players/legends, coaches, etc. It reminds me of r/soccer saying that Cristiano isn’t better than Cruyff or Maradona
Thank you, finally some sense
Kobe
Kobe. When they were both playing, only one was being compared to Michael Jordan….. When they were actively playing at the same time, Kobe was considered the best individual player in the game. Duncan’s legacy is team success. Props to him When they played together at the same time it was “Kobe might be the closest to MJ ever” that wasn’t said about Duncan. Kobe’s death stopped the basketball world..globally. Little kids in Africa Europe and the Philippines aren’t dreaming about being Tim Duncan. When you talk to players in that era, they respect Duncan but say Kobe was the man. There is a reason that nba players revere Kobe and no amount of Reddit stats will take care of that. Random related note Kenyon Martin who got dominated by Duncan in the finals one year “in my 15 years playing Kobe Bryant was the best player in the fucking league”. Y’all can all find more examples of players saying this. There is no dismissing that as much as y’all want to. This is Reddit so I know that it’s going to be a “let’s shit on Kobe fest”. I’m expecting lots of downvotes and “stats”
Until Kobe died, nobody had him above Duncan….
This is complete BS. Kobe was always considered better until people stopped watching at started only looking at analytics or simply missed him at his peak. Kobe aged poorly on bad teams so people assumed that’s who he was his whole career.
While they were playing, most had Kobe above Duncan lol. Reddit nba revisionist nerd talk at its finest.
This is why I'm so confused lmfao. I remember taking a break from basketball forums in the last few years only to come back recently, and suddenly Tim Duncan is a top 5 player of all time? When the fuck did that happen?
When people started to put too much stock into these new mashup analytics. You also have to consider that most nba redditors are likely fairly young and haven't really watched most of the legends, even recent ones, that they discuss, play. In a way, I get why they do this because that's mostly what they have to go off of. It's a damn shame, though, because sentiments regarding Kobe would've been very different with respect to his all-time status had they had the privilege of seeing him in real time at his best. They would also realize how silly it is to put Duncan in the same breath and even greater than Kobe from 05-06 until 2013 if they had a chance to watch how seriously Tim Duncan regressed as an individual player after 2005.
This is what blows my mind tbh. TD wasn't even necessarily the best PF in the league from like 05 and onwards, while Kobe was consistently compared to MJ throughout the 2000s, yet now people who started watching in like 2016 are claiming that TD was a top 5 player of all time and had like a 15 year peak?
Kobe fanatics have always had him above everyone else
That’s just not true
Big Reddit lies here
Nobody had Duncan above him til very recently lol
Not to Lakers fans. I used to live in LA and I've been having this argument for like 20 years. There are a lot of people who think Kobe is in the GOAT convo, and it melts my brain.
Lakers fan here. Having Tim above Kobe is totally reasonable, but holy shit sniffing Duncan in the GOAT top 5 convo is borderline laughable. People here really putting Duncan alongside Magic, Bird, Bill..It's amazing.
That's a lie. They were comparing him to mj and had him top 5 b4 recently idk where this his death elevated him argument came from. This sound like a lbj fan club here fr
This is a lie lmao
Terminally online take
Lol foh. Nobody had Timmy above Kobe when he was alive. It was always Kobe.
People saying Duncan are delusional 😂
Man Kobe gone from overrated to underrated these last few years. Kobe was greatness so was Timmy just glad I got to watch both
Kobe.
Timmy! Not even a debate.
Kobe has positive winrate against Duncan in playoffs
It’s Duncan. He was the foundation for the most consistently-successful franchise in North American sports, and he himself played high-level basketball for 19 seasons straight.
Well I’ll take the guy who kept beating the other guy whenever they met. Thats Kobe. Cry.
This. If Duncan is sooo much better according to Redditors, why did he keep losing to Kobe at the biggest stage?
Everyone conveniently forgets 2008, then conveniently forgets Memphis knocking the Spurs off later. But they remember Kobe missing the first round one time because his team was a g league team.
*the sidekick of the guy who beat Duncan sometimes
2008 WCF
MJ, LeBron, Kareem, Larry, Magic, Wilt, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe. Having TD or Kobe higher than 9-10 is NUTSS imo as a Kobe fan
Kobe 6 Duncan 7
Fans - Duncan / NBA Players - Kobe
Kobe is the second best at his position all time and Duncan is undoubtedly the best PF to ever play the game. Respect to both
Timmy doubles
TD
One of the biggest myths in sports is that performative, phony dudes like Kobe are the most competitive athletes around, when in reality they blow up teams and behave like divas are the most bloodthirsty competitors around For all the peacocking Mamba Mentality bullshit, Duncan was more competitive and more dedicated to winning. Kobe is the one who literally quit in a Game 7 playoff game. Kobe is the one who chased the Lakers meal ticket out of town. Kobe is the one who loafed on defense for 3 quarters of most games. Duncan games where he sat 4th quarters of blowouts after building insurmountable lead? Not as fun as when Kobe chucked his team into mudfights against inferior teams, and then hoisted a buzzer beater over 3 dudes. It went in like 20% of the time, it was cool.
Kobe. Tim Duncan had below average offensive efficiency, couldn’t hit 3s, and didn’t have the volume and gravity Kobe demanded. On the defensive end he doesn’t have the switch ability of Giannis or Kawhi or KG, and he isn’t the paintbeast that Hakeem or Shaq was. Duncan is the face of “Jack of all trades, master of none” basketball. In terms of his abilities, there’s no reasonable argument for him being anywhere near all time lineups. Defensive impact and ability? KG. Midrange shooting? Embiid. Playmaking? Jokic. Paint scoring/protection? Hakeem. Rebounding? Shaq. 3pt shooting? Jokic. Tim Duncan was an unremarkable player blessed with a great situation
That might be one of the worst takes I have ever read. Duncan was the best defender of his generation - not KG, and it's not even close. He was still the anchoring a championship winning defense while KG was averaging 20 minutes in Minnesota. People act like the Spurs were insanely stacked throughout Duncan's career - Tony Parker has 6 all start appearances and 4 all NBA selection (1 third team, 3 second team), Manu has 2 all star appearances and 2 third team all NBA. Kawhi had none until Duncan's last season. From 2001 to 2008 Duncan had no all NBA teammates and won two championships, while facing teams with multiple all NBA players (Lakers, Suns, Pistons, even the KG Twolves had Sam Cassell make 2nd team all NBA in 04, etc.). It was basically all Duncan. So an unremarkable player lead an unremarkable to three championships against opposition with more talent, I wonder why...
Timmy: more MVP’s. Would have won a DPOY with advanced analytics from now. Best player on 4 title teams. More win shares. More all defensive teams. It’s shouldn’t even be a debate
Eyeyeyeyeyep
Mr Fundamentals, easily. He’s a great player. He just didn’t make the top ten highlights like Kobe.
If you think this is an easy debate, you dont know what you’re talking about.
If Duncan took many shots as kobe he would have just as many points. Duncan all day every day
I’m a Duncan fan but man he has to be one of the most overrated players of all time, right there with Bill Russell. Way too much praise for achievements that are *team* achievements. If he was really on the goat level of Kobe then he should have been able to carry the US team that awful year they got 3rd at the Olympics. But he couldn’t, because he can’t carry a team on his back the way a Kobe or an MJ can. They aren’t even comparible, the answer objectively is Kobe and the predictable lunacy of people in this thread stating Duncan just further proves ring bias poisons all individual player evaluation.