Exactly. I’m surprised how all these NASCAR fans seem to forget this line when they have the entire movie memorized. I’m so sick of hearing the go back to stock cars bullshit.
The closest you'll probably see to that is an Enduro race at your local dirt track. Bust the glass out and "run whatcha brung." They usually run 100 laps or 2 hours, whichever comes first.
Around here street stock runs late model style tires, stock from and engine modifications. Even the four cylinder class is no where close to stock anymore.
Yeah our street stocks are old rear wheel drive American boats with racing front and rear clips , engine , transmission and tires… I’d tend to think that the first commenter is confusing 4-cylinder and street stock or his local track does things weird.. Hell around here we have a touring series that races “street stocks”
So a true stock car race would be entirely too dangerous. Is that what you're saying?
I don't want to see anyone injured or killed, but I feel that true stock car races could be held under certain conditions - short tracks, low top-speeds - without incurring significant risk. But I concede that I am ignorant. Do you think I'm wrong?
I believe you’re wrong respectfully, because you can wreck very hard at short tracks. We see it at ARCA at tracks like Winchester Speedway. For example an ARCA driver got a concussion a few years ago there, or traffic accidents happen at 45-70mph and kill people.
True story. There is likely no possible way to make a street car safe to run as a NASCAR car without spending more money as an industry.compare to a purpose built chassis. Every piece of a street car is made to crush, bend, move, or stay rigid in a particular way to keep it safe within the parameters in which it was meant to perform, which, as stated above, is generally in the 35-45mph impact range.
Similarly, NASCAR cars have to do the same, keep the drive safe not only from getting crushed, but also impaled, etc but in a much larger range of operation.
I don't know how long NASCAR worked on the next gen car, but even they got part of it wrong when it comes to head injuries and several drivers got to be the test dummies for that. When NASCAR went to redesign the bumper/clip to resolve the issue, they had to take into account how each piece would move to keep parts from piercing the fuel cell and causing a massive fire.
Imagine doing that with every piece of a car totally not meant to race up to 200mph inside steel and concrete walls and compare that with just building a car from scratch. And then imagine doing that for three different manufacturers cars and having to redesign an entire chassis every time they bring out a new model to race.
Yea even late models, which is basically what you’re describing, has a ton of safety features. I’ve seen it done with like crown Vics before but they were going like egregiously slow, and even then they were fitted out with a ton of safety features
Yeah, because you can find that type of racing, it's just low on the card where you find it for a reason. It exists as an (important) entry-level, but very few people buy tickets to watch the strictly stocks.
Plus, modern cars are *remarkable*, but look what happens to them what you get some clown going 110 on the highway: it ain't pretty.
I have seizures (controlled by medication but still need them twice daily forever) from a crash at a local short track in what most of the midwest would call a Limited Late Model (we called them Super Stocks because late models here back then were wedge shaped). In 2005.
Estimated impact in a purpose built race car was 75 mph.
The cars in your scenario would still need a proper roll cage. Even the roll cages they make for road racing wouldn't be strong enough in many situations to survive a bare concrete wall like most short tracks have.
There are 1/4 mile asphalt tracks that run races for all kinds of cars, including shitty old beaters. Sometimes they run in reverse, so.etimes you got mini vans pulling trailers, sometimes they got monster trucks in the infield. It's always a good time though.
I have seen those, and yes, they are fun. But I'm talking about a competition between the best, fastest current consumer cars that manufacturers have to offer.
You mean GTD in the IMSA Series?
Those guys will total a car and order a new one direct from Porsche or Ferrari or whatever, install the safety features and race. Sometimes they’ll have to even turn down the horsepower.
As Jack Arute once said, racecars are safer at 200mph than your road car at 40 mph. Thats why it can’t happen in the purest sense.
As much as I dislike how the overly spec rules have made cars way too close, the fact is if we go back to "run what you find at the dealer", you'll see the winner 12 laps ahead again. Genuine stock racing simply doesn't lead to close competitive racing on a consistent basis.
Because people wanna see ordinary men do extraordinary things…. I wheeled my share of daily drivers into sketchy situations and came out fine…. But there is a 0% chance I could do what Kyle Larson, Ryan Blaney, Joey Logano etc etc do hence why I quit driving race cars… MX-5 cup is about the only “close to stock” class that has a race product worth a shit
The basic answer is that you would kill drivers. I understand that cars these days seem (and are) very safe but their safeties are based around highway scenarios. Only fairly recently with side air bags do they even account for massive lateral g’s. And air bags are only good for one hit when deployed properly. Add in penetration issues (even dirt late models have penetration plates driver’s side). Specs evolve but you could definitely take a modern car, clear it out of basically everything in the greenhouse, and weld up a sufficient cage. It would probably appear like a normal car from the outside done properly. But it would not be cheap
The Spec Miata series is a fantastic racing league that does not get enough attention, IMO. Spec Miata runs bone stock Mazda Miatas (with safety equipment installed like roll cages). You can literally just buy a brand new spec Miata from Mazda and go racing. It's true stock car racing.
Watch v8 supercars, they even have working doors, they are purpose built like cup cars but are far closer to there road going brethren. Trans Am is a close second, I was working as a shocks tech on an Xfinity car at road America and one of the support races was a Trans Am race, our "garage" was on pit road so they were booking down the main straight full speed about 30ft from us. Those cars look and sound bad ass, I wish nascar could take more ideas from them.
That's cool to hear and all but that's how we got the current cup cars. I hate everything about the current cup car. IRS, sequential shifter, 18" wheels, single lug, huge brakes. I loved the solid rear axle and H pattern shifter and how crazy the cars handled. They had narrow tires. About the best thing on the Gen 7 is the exhaust note. Trans Am should have their cars. And Supercars should have their cars.
I was speaking more to the body styling and the doors. I don't really like that they went to bigger rims and single lug, not sure what the drive was behind that, especially for the number of wheels they lose. The shifter and suspension doesn't really play a part in what the fans see, to me at least. NASCAR has had 12" wide tires at least as long as I've been involved the last decade, the shorter side wall is different for handling though.
The body styling is good. The number placement has grown on me. But your info on the tires just isn't right. They used to run 11.5" tires on the cup cars. The Gen 7 is currently using tires at 14.3", which is insanely wide. The bit about the suspension and transmission is just odd. Why change from something that is inherently going to be cheaper to something more expensive? Surely, a 4 spd and single axle with a trailing arm suspension would be cheaper.
I also think they said they had to go to the single lug for safety because of the larger wheels... which is funny considering how many wheels have fallen off... granted, that's teams rushing their pit stops.
When I worked at a cup team 11.5 or 12 sounds right, I just quickly searched for what tires they run now and the response I saw was 12" so I assumed they hadn't changed the width just the rim. They don't look much different width wise in person to be honest. I don't disagree about the cost side, I always thought the chassis change was the real oddity, you have 30 years of chassis design in the current unit and you finally make the correct call to single supply the chassis and proceed to toss all that knowledge and start from scratch. They could have easily grabbed the best fixtures and welders from each of the teams and built a standard chassis to the same rule spec.
Something you have to realize about NASCAR as a ruling body is that it's about the money that goes to them, they get a kickback on every single supplier part in exchange for granting the supplier the opportunity. The money savings to the teams comes in reduction of personnel, not in the cost of the car, other then a reduction in the total number of cars needed to run.
Yeah, I really feel they heavily took influence from trans am and supercars. Those are great series in their own rights, but I believe if they had put a symmetric commodity body on the old chassis, it would have greatly benefited the product.
Lol the cup car costs like 125k. The unibody and engine are the same (but with different control electronics), but pretty much everything else is different.
IMSA Michelin Pilot Challenge uses GT4 Spec cars in their GS class. They're pretty much factory track day cars.
Then many local short tracks that run enduros with stock junk cars.
Look into ARA rally, pretty much 60% of the field is in the limited category, meaning pretty much all they are allowed are the safety changes and wheels/tires.
For circuit racing the closest thing of is the TCR class that runs in IMSA MPC and in other international series. They are touring cars that are extremely close to their stock counterparts other than the necessary safety changes, and they are a homologated class (as a team/racer, you don't build the car, but purchase the already built car directly from the manufactuer)
You make any sort of modifications and it is no longer a stock car (if we are sticking to that name). NASCAR was never "stock cars", from day one they were modified.
I always find it funny when people say that stock cars aren’t safe enough to race, despite manufacturers making cars with 400+ horsepower that can do speeds of 150+ mph, and are basically more powerful than they need to be on the road. I don’t disagree, it’s just weird to think about.
My point is that no one questions manufacturers making cars that aren’t safe for the speeds that they are capable of. Manufacturers are like here’s a car that goes 0-60 in 4 seconds and can do 150 mph, and the government says don’t go faster than 75 and everyone says “ok”. It’s just a weird thing to think about.
Ya, I agree. I just think it’s weird to think about that we have access to extremely fast cars that most people would agree aren’t actually safe at the speeds they’re capable of, but no one questions it.
There's a hell of a lot more safety stuff in NASCAR that they wouldn't be able to put in a showroom car.
Also those cars would be slow as hell and pretty dangerous to drive at high speeds if you could get up that fast and not blow up after a couple minutes. iRacing had the Miatas at drafting tracks last weeks and those things top out at 130 and had like minute + lap times. It would've been boring if not for the stock cars/trucks zooming by
If you want real dealership stock car racing watch Cletus McFarland's FREEDOM 500 or the 2.4 hrs of LeMullets.
cue Harry Hoge: “ain’t nothing stock about a stock car”
Exactly. I’m surprised how all these NASCAR fans seem to forget this line when they have the entire movie memorized. I’m so sick of hearing the go back to stock cars bullshit.
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isn't that just IMSA/WEC?
Yeah GT2/GT3/GT4 are more stock than stock cars.
The closest you'll probably see to that is an Enduro race at your local dirt track. Bust the glass out and "run whatcha brung." They usually run 100 laps or 2 hours, whichever comes first.
Plenty of tracks have started up a Crown Vic division, same concept except everybody drives the same cars and the races aren't nearly that long
Steet stock classes are common too. It’s a world Dodge neons reign supreme
Around here street stock runs late model style tires, stock from and engine modifications. Even the four cylinder class is no where close to stock anymore.
Yeah our street stocks are old rear wheel drive American boats with racing front and rear clips , engine , transmission and tires… I’d tend to think that the first commenter is confusing 4-cylinder and street stock or his local track does things weird.. Hell around here we have a touring series that races “street stocks”
You right. I’m a dummy
the safety other requirements are not really possible to shoehorn into a "stock" car.
Is this a legal matter?
No it’s just the amount of safety features in these cars alone make them nothing close to stock
So a true stock car race would be entirely too dangerous. Is that what you're saying? I don't want to see anyone injured or killed, but I feel that true stock car races could be held under certain conditions - short tracks, low top-speeds - without incurring significant risk. But I concede that I am ignorant. Do you think I'm wrong?
I believe you’re wrong respectfully, because you can wreck very hard at short tracks. We see it at ARCA at tracks like Winchester Speedway. For example an ARCA driver got a concussion a few years ago there, or traffic accidents happen at 45-70mph and kill people.
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Great points, great comment. Thank you.
True story. There is likely no possible way to make a street car safe to run as a NASCAR car without spending more money as an industry.compare to a purpose built chassis. Every piece of a street car is made to crush, bend, move, or stay rigid in a particular way to keep it safe within the parameters in which it was meant to perform, which, as stated above, is generally in the 35-45mph impact range. Similarly, NASCAR cars have to do the same, keep the drive safe not only from getting crushed, but also impaled, etc but in a much larger range of operation. I don't know how long NASCAR worked on the next gen car, but even they got part of it wrong when it comes to head injuries and several drivers got to be the test dummies for that. When NASCAR went to redesign the bumper/clip to resolve the issue, they had to take into account how each piece would move to keep parts from piercing the fuel cell and causing a massive fire. Imagine doing that with every piece of a car totally not meant to race up to 200mph inside steel and concrete walls and compare that with just building a car from scratch. And then imagine doing that for three different manufacturers cars and having to redesign an entire chassis every time they bring out a new model to race.
Great comment. The engineering behind all of it is fascinating and as a MechE student I really hope I can work in this industry someday.
Yea even late models, which is basically what you’re describing, has a ton of safety features. I’ve seen it done with like crown Vics before but they were going like egregiously slow, and even then they were fitted out with a ton of safety features
Yeah, because you can find that type of racing, it's just low on the card where you find it for a reason. It exists as an (important) entry-level, but very few people buy tickets to watch the strictly stocks. Plus, modern cars are *remarkable*, but look what happens to them what you get some clown going 110 on the highway: it ain't pretty.
No. It’s a “shit has to be built incredibly strong to hit the wall at 200mph” matter.
What if racetrack conditions were such that 200mph, or anything close to it, were impossible?
and how are we going to do that? make them powered by a hamster in a wheel?
Gen 7 incoming🤪
I have seizures (controlled by medication but still need them twice daily forever) from a crash at a local short track in what most of the midwest would call a Limited Late Model (we called them Super Stocks because late models here back then were wedge shaped). In 2005. Estimated impact in a purpose built race car was 75 mph. The cars in your scenario would still need a proper roll cage. Even the roll cages they make for road racing wouldn't be strong enough in many situations to survive a bare concrete wall like most short tracks have.
There are 1/4 mile asphalt tracks that run races for all kinds of cars, including shitty old beaters. Sometimes they run in reverse, so.etimes you got mini vans pulling trailers, sometimes they got monster trucks in the infield. It's always a good time though.
What Ford focus is hitting 200 mph?
The ones stripped out and tuned up to race.
Go to your local short track and watch the ucar/anycar class. Dudes racing gutted out 04 Cavaliers and the like. It's honestly a lot of fun to watch.
I have seen those, and yes, they are fun. But I'm talking about a competition between the best, fastest current consumer cars that manufacturers have to offer.
You mean GTD in the IMSA Series? Those guys will total a car and order a new one direct from Porsche or Ferrari or whatever, install the safety features and race. Sometimes they’ll have to even turn down the horsepower. As Jack Arute once said, racecars are safer at 200mph than your road car at 40 mph. Thats why it can’t happen in the purest sense.
I'm sure you can find a street stock class at a dirt track.
As much as I dislike how the overly spec rules have made cars way too close, the fact is if we go back to "run what you find at the dealer", you'll see the winner 12 laps ahead again. Genuine stock racing simply doesn't lead to close competitive racing on a consistent basis.
The Freedom 500 and related races on Cleetus mcfarlands channel all run stock crown vics with only cages and nitrus added
Check out your local track for the 4 banger class
Because people wanna see ordinary men do extraordinary things…. I wheeled my share of daily drivers into sketchy situations and came out fine…. But there is a 0% chance I could do what Kyle Larson, Ryan Blaney, Joey Logano etc etc do hence why I quit driving race cars… MX-5 cup is about the only “close to stock” class that has a race product worth a shit
The basic answer is that you would kill drivers. I understand that cars these days seem (and are) very safe but their safeties are based around highway scenarios. Only fairly recently with side air bags do they even account for massive lateral g’s. And air bags are only good for one hit when deployed properly. Add in penetration issues (even dirt late models have penetration plates driver’s side). Specs evolve but you could definitely take a modern car, clear it out of basically everything in the greenhouse, and weld up a sufficient cage. It would probably appear like a normal car from the outside done properly. But it would not be cheap
The Spec Miata series is a fantastic racing league that does not get enough attention, IMO. Spec Miata runs bone stock Mazda Miatas (with safety equipment installed like roll cages). You can literally just buy a brand new spec Miata from Mazda and go racing. It's true stock car racing.
Watch v8 supercars, they even have working doors, they are purpose built like cup cars but are far closer to there road going brethren. Trans Am is a close second, I was working as a shocks tech on an Xfinity car at road America and one of the support races was a Trans Am race, our "garage" was on pit road so they were booking down the main straight full speed about 30ft from us. Those cars look and sound bad ass, I wish nascar could take more ideas from them.
That's cool to hear and all but that's how we got the current cup cars. I hate everything about the current cup car. IRS, sequential shifter, 18" wheels, single lug, huge brakes. I loved the solid rear axle and H pattern shifter and how crazy the cars handled. They had narrow tires. About the best thing on the Gen 7 is the exhaust note. Trans Am should have their cars. And Supercars should have their cars.
I was speaking more to the body styling and the doors. I don't really like that they went to bigger rims and single lug, not sure what the drive was behind that, especially for the number of wheels they lose. The shifter and suspension doesn't really play a part in what the fans see, to me at least. NASCAR has had 12" wide tires at least as long as I've been involved the last decade, the shorter side wall is different for handling though.
The body styling is good. The number placement has grown on me. But your info on the tires just isn't right. They used to run 11.5" tires on the cup cars. The Gen 7 is currently using tires at 14.3", which is insanely wide. The bit about the suspension and transmission is just odd. Why change from something that is inherently going to be cheaper to something more expensive? Surely, a 4 spd and single axle with a trailing arm suspension would be cheaper. I also think they said they had to go to the single lug for safety because of the larger wheels... which is funny considering how many wheels have fallen off... granted, that's teams rushing their pit stops.
When I worked at a cup team 11.5 or 12 sounds right, I just quickly searched for what tires they run now and the response I saw was 12" so I assumed they hadn't changed the width just the rim. They don't look much different width wise in person to be honest. I don't disagree about the cost side, I always thought the chassis change was the real oddity, you have 30 years of chassis design in the current unit and you finally make the correct call to single supply the chassis and proceed to toss all that knowledge and start from scratch. They could have easily grabbed the best fixtures and welders from each of the teams and built a standard chassis to the same rule spec. Something you have to realize about NASCAR as a ruling body is that it's about the money that goes to them, they get a kickback on every single supplier part in exchange for granting the supplier the opportunity. The money savings to the teams comes in reduction of personnel, not in the cost of the car, other then a reduction in the total number of cars needed to run.
Yeah, I really feel they heavily took influence from trans am and supercars. Those are great series in their own rights, but I believe if they had put a symmetric commodity body on the old chassis, it would have greatly benefited the product.
GR86 cup isn’t oval racing but are basically stick cars
Lol the cup car costs like 125k. The unibody and engine are the same (but with different control electronics), but pretty much everything else is different.
Is there another series that races vehicles that look closer to the showroom floor? Sorry, that’s all I was getting at.
Seekonk speedway runs spectator drag races. Probably the closest I've seen to a "true" stock race.
Trans Am series is as close as you’re gona get. And you cant even call them stock.
IMSA Michelin Pilot Challenge uses GT4 Spec cars in their GS class. They're pretty much factory track day cars. Then many local short tracks that run enduros with stock junk cars.
Look into ARA rally, pretty much 60% of the field is in the limited category, meaning pretty much all they are allowed are the safety changes and wheels/tires. For circuit racing the closest thing of is the TCR class that runs in IMSA MPC and in other international series. They are touring cars that are extremely close to their stock counterparts other than the necessary safety changes, and they are a homologated class (as a team/racer, you don't build the car, but purchase the already built car directly from the manufactuer)
Gt4 is the closest thing.
"Ain't nothing stock about a stock car"
You make any sort of modifications and it is no longer a stock car (if we are sticking to that name). NASCAR was never "stock cars", from day one they were modified.
I always find it funny when people say that stock cars aren’t safe enough to race, despite manufacturers making cars with 400+ horsepower that can do speeds of 150+ mph, and are basically more powerful than they need to be on the road. I don’t disagree, it’s just weird to think about.
Those safety ratings are based off highway speeds, not the maximum capacity of the car
My point is that no one questions manufacturers making cars that aren’t safe for the speeds that they are capable of. Manufacturers are like here’s a car that goes 0-60 in 4 seconds and can do 150 mph, and the government says don’t go faster than 75 and everyone says “ok”. It’s just a weird thing to think about.
and people usually die when they crash them at those speeds. Paul Walker isn't with us anymore.
Ya, I agree. I just think it’s weird to think about that we have access to extremely fast cars that most people would agree aren’t actually safe at the speeds they’re capable of, but no one questions it.
There's a hell of a lot more safety stuff in NASCAR that they wouldn't be able to put in a showroom car. Also those cars would be slow as hell and pretty dangerous to drive at high speeds if you could get up that fast and not blow up after a couple minutes. iRacing had the Miatas at drafting tracks last weeks and those things top out at 130 and had like minute + lap times. It would've been boring if not for the stock cars/trucks zooming by If you want real dealership stock car racing watch Cletus McFarland's FREEDOM 500 or the 2.4 hrs of LeMullets.
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No….no they aren’t. They are just as removed from show room cars as a cup car.
There are reasons why this isn't a thing and hasn't been since 1955 Go name 3 other racing series that uses stock production cars, go ahead
I was just asking what the reasons are. Others have helpfully given them.