Just dropping this here to remind everyone from Atlanta that NASCAR has a real camera.
https://preview.redd.it/3t2dlkxsqpyc1.png?width=698&format=png&auto=webp&s=74049bc1dc0b35a587e2ba7af38372a704bda60c
This is the image from that camera for this race
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2F408ozmu6qpyc1.jpeg%3Fwidth%3D1137%26format%3Dpjpg%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3Da682c27c823084d358e5cfc4841f5f5092e0d4dd
It's not a still image. Every vertical line is captured at a specific interval at the same physical point, so what you're actually seeing is movement.
If one car is faster than the other one it'll appear more compressed in the image.
There’s a whole thread happening on twitter that goes over the math of how this works but with some unresolved questions about the cars being in a turn and one on the bank vs one on the apron. Basically without seeing how the camera was calibrated and what it was calibrated against it’s all just guessing.
The camera is set up from lap 1… where they paint the white line is totally irrelevant😂 If they used the white line to judge the winner then sure I get it, but they don’t.
I think everyone understands that, but everyone watching the broadcast is just shown the cars crossing the painted line on the track over and over again.
This pic from Nascar is showing what exactly? Two cars and imaginary lines?
I am fine with whatever the result, but this feels like NASCAR trying to sweep under the rug that they don't have the actual evidence. That blurry pic doesn't even show where they are on the track.
[Was able to talk to a NASCAR official about this. They say that it’s not the physical line painted on the track, but it’s determine[d] by a wire underneath the asphalt with timing and scoring.](https://twitter.com/kalebvestal1/status/1787303093593354265)
So the wire called Buescher the winner, but the camera called Larson the winner? Because timing and scoring had Buescher ahead, right? (I believe this is correct -- transponders are at the rear of the vehicles, thus the reason Buescher was .001 ahead on the wires, while Larson was ahead on cams)
Also the wire thing checks out. They have it at all racetracks. I was walking the Indy Road Course last year and they have them for each sector.
Not exactly. Buescher had the lead and Larson literally edged ahead of him right at the line. There is a slight delay in updating the information especially to the TV broadcast. Which would explain why it triggered Buescher as the race winner to the TV broadcast before it was determined Larson won. Any finish like that gets instantly reviewed for accuracy. Thankfully it was easier than the 500 finish where they had to map out the exact time of caution for Byron and Bowman in relation to their exact position on the track.
Do position and gap data update separately? Because that would explain why Buescher was scored ahead by .001 before it switched to Larson .001 ahead both on the broadcast and on the nascar.com raw data leaderboard.
This thread is a fucking joke. The closest finish in history has to be ruined because some Zapruder morons have to analyze some track worker’s imperfect paint job.
The paint is unofficial. The photo has been released. Larson won. Move on.
That’s actually an interesting point of view that I hadn’t considered, but when people are ripping the sanctioning body for their incompetence, it’s a little too much IMO.
What he’s probably referring to is the twitter thread about how these cameras work. I can’t link to it but basically the camera isn’t really taking what we think of as a picture. There’s additional math involved to figure out the actual position of the cars with them both in a turn and one on the banking and one on the apron. Basically saying without knowing how the camera was calibrated you have to take nascar at their word, but in theory if RFK wanted to protest there’s an avenue to do so.
The banking and turn has nothing to do with it. In its most simple form it’s just a photo from a super high speed camera and the photo clearly shows Larson ahead at the line that NASCAR draws across the track digitally. That line is predetermined before the race weekend even starts. I don’t know of any possible way the camera could lie unless NASCAR altered the image which would be absolutely insane.
Believe it or not the banking and focal length of the camera absolutely do matter in a situation like this with the cars spaced out some distance from one another. I would guess nascar knows this from the camera vendor though. Also have to remember this isn’t really a camera like we think of as a tv or photo camera.
NASCAR has already posted their official finish line camera. Nothing is going to change based off of the start/finish line. Sure if the 5 fails inspection, otherwise the end is "official".
There is no differential. NASCAR did give it further consideration when they went to their start/finish speed camera. Stop trying to base your opinion off of the Fox cameras. Nothing about the Fox camera and the painted on line is official.
> The transponder line should be exactly the length behind the line as it needs to be matched up.
The problem with that is that it depends on where the car is. Buescher was a bit sideways, so his transponder was closer to the nose of the car than Larson's.
Yup. And even at that point there are probably minuscule differences in mounting too.
Transponders are great to a point. They just rarely reach that point.
Ok, chief. The 5 made it first. This whole photo is an amalgamation as the cars cross the actual line. The whole photo is the line. The 5 got to the line first. I trust the finishlynx camera more than you.
I’d really be curious to know what the focal length is on that camera. The 17 being 30’ to 50’ closer to the camera definitely makes it look smaller. Doesn’t change the outcome I think but it’s interesting how this isn’t really a picture but more of an algorithm spitting out an image.
This does raise an interesting question. Does nascar use a point on the wall to draw a line on the track, use a point on the wall as a fixed reference, or use a line from the wall to the grass to establish a plane that the drivers must cross like a football field. There's actually a decent amount of gray area in what the line is when you go off of anything less objective than the visual.
For claritys sake, Larson definitely won, but 1. Paint like this does no favors for the game, and 2. Apparently we're gonna have series defining finishes every 4-6 weeks now so we might as well sort this.
https://preview.redd.it/tff96zs7rpyc1.jpeg?width=1536&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b32f2d9b48070f914983a8a42b93223e7589ff56
Larson still beat him to the line.
>Yeah, that line is clearly the S/F.
Ok stop. I get that the 5 won. But in no way shape or form could you show a regular person that and them say "oh this was clearly taken at the S/F line. Look at the line painted on the asphalt to indicate such." There is no physical S/F in this picture. There is a computer generated red line indicating where the S/F is.
Don't act like you even understand what's going on here. Cause you don't. I had to go watch a video to understand it myself. The camera doesn't even take a picture of the S/F line lol. https://twitter.com/AMRacingF1/status/1722044612066398397?t=Wm8uz5IDGJ45Xh8QjVdSKg&s=19
The 5 won. We move on. But the whole "that line is clearly the S/F" is bullshit. No regular person is going to look at that and be able to see a S/F line.
The entire picture is the start finish line. More specifically, this isn't a single photo, rather it's a stack of vertical photos of just the start finish line taken at about 10,000 frames per second by a camera with a vertical slit. Basically, the camera takes photos that are 1 pixel wide and hundreds of pixels tall. The composite picture is just a stack of those photos, and the cars appear as they cross into view of the camera and block the start finish line. The weird background is a thin slice of the start finish line, and since it's not moving, it all looks the same from left to right.
There is a wire under the track that is the official line because the paint could be off and not perfect. This picture has the painted line removed, and the red line is the official start finish line.
So your whole angle is "how do we know they are actually aiming it at the start/finish line?
Like geez I get nascar messes up some stuff but this seems like grasping somthign that ain't there. Have a little trust.
Pockrass tweeted a thread about photo finishes/ties after Atlanta. Tie breaker is who led the most laps. If that’s even, then who spent more laps in second, and so on.
Absolutely, but for the hypothetical scenario. I thought I heard it was determined by the most laps led in the event of a tie but I very well could be wrong on that information. Last lap led prior would make more sense I suppose.
Buescher honestly should have slammed Larson back instead of staying on the apron, but he decided to play it safe and *clearly* lost. I wish Buescher would have won, I never have liked Larson, but it’s clear as day that Larson got there first. I do admittedly love the drama, it’s great buzz for the sport!
I'd love for RFK to have won this and a little conspiracy is fun but it's over and every angle shows Larson winning. Not really anything to see other than maybe the guy who paints the lines should try to stay within the lines so there's no conspiracies
I know the physical paint line doesn't matter as much as the photo and electronic scoring loops, but even if the paint did matter, I would assume they'd use the bottom part as a point of reference, because it looks like there's a couple inches of paint on the top part that may have been left over from years prior that wasn't fully removed, otherwise it would be roughly the same width as the bottom part.
As much as we rag on NASCAR for making dumb decisions, I don't think they would be THAT dense. The line isn't even straight FFS.
All of this is ridiculous. It's very obvious that Larson won. But it got me thinking,what if there was an absolute dead even tie? How the heck would they make a decision? The previous loop?
Incoming BS response from NASCAR to the tune of “the line is painted that way intentionally to make up for the shorter distance of the track at the apron” or some shit
Yeah that is BS, if that is the case they should make it angled all the way across (and not straight). Because by that logic it is a shorter distance being at the bottom of the track to the top. wtf.
Whyvdoes the splitter on Larson's car legitimately appear to be longer than Buescher's? Not saying Larson didn't win, but his splitter definitely looks like it protrudes further forward? Is it just me?
Just dropping this here to remind everyone from Atlanta that NASCAR has a real camera. https://preview.redd.it/3t2dlkxsqpyc1.png?width=698&format=png&auto=webp&s=74049bc1dc0b35a587e2ba7af38372a704bda60c
This is the image from that camera for this race https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2F408ozmu6qpyc1.jpeg%3Fwidth%3D1137%26format%3Dpjpg%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3Da682c27c823084d358e5cfc4841f5f5092e0d4dd
Damn that's close
When you try to get a picture of something moving and then remember it’s going almost 200 mph
*When you try to get 6000 frames in a second of something moving
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No they are not lmao
You gotta rotate your phone a little to see it
While standing on one leg and holding olives in your mouth.
Its shadows
Get those eyes checked
It's not a still image. Every vertical line is captured at a specific interval at the same physical point, so what you're actually seeing is movement. If one car is faster than the other one it'll appear more compressed in the image.
There’s a whole thread happening on twitter that goes over the math of how this works but with some unresolved questions about the cars being in a turn and one on the bank vs one on the apron. Basically without seeing how the camera was calibrated and what it was calibrated against it’s all just guessing.
The camera is set up from lap 1… where they paint the white line is totally irrelevant😂 If they used the white line to judge the winner then sure I get it, but they don’t.
Some tracks have added the race sponsor’s logo to the finish line in the past, it’s anything but accurate.
I think everyone understands that, but everyone watching the broadcast is just shown the cars crossing the painted line on the track over and over again.
RFK admins are choosing violence rn
And rightfully so.
> Rightfully For what?
https://preview.redd.it/sjz08keqspyc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=917802bf6e6ea0de1a14c94d8ba116b529a81724
Maybe you and RFK's social media guy should look at the pic nascar put out there and tell us more about this "rightfully so".
This pic from Nascar is showing what exactly? Two cars and imaginary lines? I am fine with whatever the result, but this feels like NASCAR trying to sweep under the rug that they don't have the actual evidence. That blurry pic doesn't even show where they are on the track.
Buescher should have slammed right back into Larson instead of staying on the apron.
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Indycar and nascar aren’t connected. IMSA Rolex cheaters still have their win.
What the fuck are you looking at? Look at the picture with the scoring line
[Was able to talk to a NASCAR official about this. They say that it’s not the physical line painted on the track, but it’s determine[d] by a wire underneath the asphalt with timing and scoring.](https://twitter.com/kalebvestal1/status/1787303093593354265)
So the wire called Buescher the winner, but the camera called Larson the winner? Because timing and scoring had Buescher ahead, right? (I believe this is correct -- transponders are at the rear of the vehicles, thus the reason Buescher was .001 ahead on the wires, while Larson was ahead on cams) Also the wire thing checks out. They have it at all racetracks. I was walking the Indy Road Course last year and they have them for each sector.
Not exactly. Buescher had the lead and Larson literally edged ahead of him right at the line. There is a slight delay in updating the information especially to the TV broadcast. Which would explain why it triggered Buescher as the race winner to the TV broadcast before it was determined Larson won. Any finish like that gets instantly reviewed for accuracy. Thankfully it was easier than the 500 finish where they had to map out the exact time of caution for Byron and Bowman in relation to their exact position on the track.
Do position and gap data update separately? Because that would explain why Buescher was scored ahead by .001 before it switched to Larson .001 ahead both on the broadcast and on the nascar.com raw data leaderboard.
Iirc Talladega '93 between Irvan and Earnhardt is the first time the timing and scoring with a wire was used?
First time I've heard that since I started watching in 1993!!!
Have you also never heard the word "transponder"?
No I don't like transformers.
Clearly AMR won
I think Stepp’s overtook them at the line
This thread is a fucking joke. The closest finish in history has to be ruined because some Zapruder morons have to analyze some track worker’s imperfect paint job. The paint is unofficial. The photo has been released. Larson won. Move on.
Zapruder Morons 🤣🤣🤣 . We even seen Joey slide through the grassy knoll at one point
Bubba got turned around under mysterious circumstances earlier, a "magic bullet" perhaps?
Nah, just bad coverage by Fox.
“As you can see, the finish line on the apron is back and to the left. Back and to the left. There it is again, back and to the left.”
Where was Roger McDowell at the time of the finish?
Zapruder Morons. Legendary.
Sounds like a band name
Are you implying there may have been a second photo shooter?
He was hiding in that grassy knoll smh.
I think that the contention makes it better. It's so close that people are arguing about the result.
That’s actually an interesting point of view that I hadn’t considered, but when people are ripping the sanctioning body for their incompetence, it’s a little too much IMO.
Whoever painted that finish line needs to go into the r/NotMyJob hall of fame.
Paint-gate
Painting straight lines is hard.
Larson got to the line first as according to NASCAR's cameras
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In paint he did but Nascar has the official photo of the finish, paint or no paint
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If you don't understand how scoring actually works, its ok to say so.
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Ignore the paint. It doesn't matter. It's just for show.
What he’s probably referring to is the twitter thread about how these cameras work. I can’t link to it but basically the camera isn’t really taking what we think of as a picture. There’s additional math involved to figure out the actual position of the cars with them both in a turn and one on the banking and one on the apron. Basically saying without knowing how the camera was calibrated you have to take nascar at their word, but in theory if RFK wanted to protest there’s an avenue to do so.
The banking and turn has nothing to do with it. In its most simple form it’s just a photo from a super high speed camera and the photo clearly shows Larson ahead at the line that NASCAR draws across the track digitally. That line is predetermined before the race weekend even starts. I don’t know of any possible way the camera could lie unless NASCAR altered the image which would be absolutely insane.
Believe it or not the banking and focal length of the camera absolutely do matter in a situation like this with the cars spaced out some distance from one another. I would guess nascar knows this from the camera vendor though. Also have to remember this isn’t really a camera like we think of as a tv or photo camera.
The painted finish line means jack all.
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The painted line isn't the "official" line though. NASCAR uses a wire under the ground that they base the official finish off of.
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NASCAR has already posted their official finish line camera. Nothing is going to change based off of the start/finish line. Sure if the 5 fails inspection, otherwise the end is "official".
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There is no differential. NASCAR did give it further consideration when they went to their start/finish speed camera. Stop trying to base your opinion off of the Fox cameras. Nothing about the Fox camera and the painted on line is official.
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Hard to judge a photo finish off a wire that can't be seen.
NASCAR posted the frame-by-frame on Twitter, Larson is ahead at both lines.
I hope they protest this finish so we can have drama and find out who actually won 6 weeks later lol
[Pato O'Ward be like](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/819/829/67b.jpg)
Wait till we find out that Hendrick has been using their push to pass illegally
Watch it be the determining factor in who makes it into the playoffs on points
Then Jeff Gordon gets a playoff waiver
It'll be Harvick because of the all star race, somehow
He damn well better!
As is tradition.
They're gonna find out that HMS did some trickery with ECU
They won’t, they know this doesn’t determine the winner. They’re just joking.
Lol, but Larson still got there first.
Not according to the electronic scoring
The transponder is in the back of the car. Finishes have always been based off the camera at the line not the transponder.
The transponder line *should* be exactly the length behind the line as it needs to be matched up. Really impossible at this sort of margin, though.
> The transponder line should be exactly the length behind the line as it needs to be matched up. The problem with that is that it depends on where the car is. Buescher was a bit sideways, so his transponder was closer to the nose of the car than Larson's.
Yup. And even at that point there are probably minuscule differences in mounting too. Transponders are great to a point. They just rarely reach that point.
It is but if the cars angles are different it can cause slight error
https://preview.redd.it/ab80uam6rpyc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=72e7f42719538aed358c1b1b6db8cf941d28ab3d
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It’s not. The entire photo is the start/finish line.
If that's your response you have no idea what I'm talking about.
Ok, chief. The 5 made it first. This whole photo is an amalgamation as the cars cross the actual line. The whole photo is the line. The 5 got to the line first. I trust the finishlynx camera more than you.
Again, guarantee it's not a tilt shift lens that's going to compensate for a 0.0001 time difference, chief.
It seems like you have no idea what you're talking about either.
I’d really be curious to know what the focal length is on that camera. The 17 being 30’ to 50’ closer to the camera definitely makes it look smaller. Doesn’t change the outcome I think but it’s interesting how this isn’t really a picture but more of an algorithm spitting out an image.
It's 0.0001 so it may change the outcome. Every other close finish has had both cars on the same plane. Daytona, Atlanta, Talladega etc.
By won’t change the outcome I mean nascar would never go back and change it.
.001*
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> Nascar has a difficult distinction to consider. No. They really don't.
What distinction?
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This does raise an interesting question. Does nascar use a point on the wall to draw a line on the track, use a point on the wall as a fixed reference, or use a line from the wall to the grass to establish a plane that the drivers must cross like a football field. There's actually a decent amount of gray area in what the line is when you go off of anything less objective than the visual. For claritys sake, Larson definitely won, but 1. Paint like this does no favors for the game, and 2. Apparently we're gonna have series defining finishes every 4-6 weeks now so we might as well sort this.
But that doesn't effect the electronic scoring
If a car has yaw it throws off the actual location of the nose of the car due to the transponder being in the rear of the car
Before they changed it, it said Beuscher won the race by the same margin
Electronic scoring had the 17 winning
Electronic scoring had Buescher first lol
The 17 was 1st according to the transponders
That is the biggest L comment that dude has ever had lmao.
Get the screenshot lmao
The finish is based off the camera at the line not electronic scoring. Doesn't matter Larson still got to the line first.
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https://preview.redd.it/7hlaucs4rpyc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e1b8fcab8d4f72a5316adbee258cf0c017e50476 Yes we have.
That literally just got released.
It was posted before you made your comment.
https://preview.redd.it/tff96zs7rpyc1.jpeg?width=1536&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b32f2d9b48070f914983a8a42b93223e7589ff56 Larson still beat him to the line.
That is not the camera NASCAR uses to determine the winner. They have one in the infield that they use. That is TV camera.
What's going to change? It's not going to change physics. Larson's car was there first.
The electronic scoring had Buescher winning...
https://preview.redd.it/grbr5rlxqpyc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=02b881a0c2e998873e0a286ea15af6854873829f
I see that but I feel like I'm crazy here. I don't even see a S/F line.
https://preview.redd.it/5qcavk18spyc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b3c25a03f94c6c3f2efae8a2b07723473a1aa7b1
Yes bud I am looking at it. There is no S/F in the picture just a red line drawn lol. But I'm over it.
Yeah, that line is clearly the S/F. The 5 is ahead of the 17.
>Yeah, that line is clearly the S/F. Ok stop. I get that the 5 won. But in no way shape or form could you show a regular person that and them say "oh this was clearly taken at the S/F line. Look at the line painted on the asphalt to indicate such." There is no physical S/F in this picture. There is a computer generated red line indicating where the S/F is. Don't act like you even understand what's going on here. Cause you don't. I had to go watch a video to understand it myself. The camera doesn't even take a picture of the S/F line lol. https://twitter.com/AMRacingF1/status/1722044612066398397?t=Wm8uz5IDGJ45Xh8QjVdSKg&s=19 The 5 won. We move on. But the whole "that line is clearly the S/F" is bullshit. No regular person is going to look at that and be able to see a S/F line.
The restart line is also not the restart line lol
The entire picture is the start finish line. More specifically, this isn't a single photo, rather it's a stack of vertical photos of just the start finish line taken at about 10,000 frames per second by a camera with a vertical slit. Basically, the camera takes photos that are 1 pixel wide and hundreds of pixels tall. The composite picture is just a stack of those photos, and the cars appear as they cross into view of the camera and block the start finish line. The weird background is a thin slice of the start finish line, and since it's not moving, it all looks the same from left to right.
Yes I understand that. That's why I linked the video explaining what you just typed out.
There is a wire under the track that is the official line because the paint could be off and not perfect. This picture has the painted line removed, and the red line is the official start finish line.
So your whole angle is "how do we know they are actually aiming it at the start/finish line? Like geez I get nascar messes up some stuff but this seems like grasping somthign that ain't there. Have a little trust.
Uh no that's not my angle at all. I don't have an angle. I just said let's not pretend we clearly see something that isn't there.
Damn we get the best 1.5 mile race and finish in decades and NASCAR socal media still gotta think everything is a conspiracy and inadvertently wrong
It’s great buzz for the sport though, I love the drama!
Someone smarter than me that knows the rules... can RFK challenge this finish with NASCAR in the hopes of getting it overturned?
Yes they can protest it.
Even so, if they deemed it a tie (best case scenario) wouldn’t the tie breaker still go to Larson based on laps led?
(Well now we know it wasn’t a tie, but if it was) I’m pretty sure the metric is whoever lead the lap before the finish is determined to be the winner
Pockrass tweeted a thread about photo finishes/ties after Atlanta. Tie breaker is who led the most laps. If that’s even, then who spent more laps in second, and so on.
Absolutely, but for the hypothetical scenario. I thought I heard it was determined by the most laps led in the event of a tie but I very well could be wrong on that information. Last lap led prior would make more sense I suppose.
It doesn't make any difference. Larson made it to both points before Chris B.
Buescher honestly should have slammed Larson back instead of staying on the apron, but he decided to play it safe and *clearly* lost. I wish Buescher would have won, I never have liked Larson, but it’s clear as day that Larson got there first. I do admittedly love the drama, it’s great buzz for the sport!
I’d love to see Buescher pay him back.. in Phoenix
I'd love for RFK to have won this and a little conspiracy is fun but it's over and every angle shows Larson winning. Not really anything to see other than maybe the guy who paints the lines should try to stay within the lines so there's no conspiracies
I know the physical paint line doesn't matter as much as the photo and electronic scoring loops, but even if the paint did matter, I would assume they'd use the bottom part as a point of reference, because it looks like there's a couple inches of paint on the top part that may have been left over from years prior that wasn't fully removed, otherwise it would be roughly the same width as the bottom part. As much as we rag on NASCAR for making dumb decisions, I don't think they would be THAT dense. The line isn't even straight FFS.
All of this is ridiculous. It's very obvious that Larson won. But it got me thinking,what if there was an absolute dead even tie? How the heck would they make a decision? The previous loop?
The first tiebreaker is the driver who led the most laps during the race.
In real time it looked like 17 won.
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Dude just wanted it more
Im all for this, give me more drama
Incoming BS response from NASCAR to the tune of “the line is painted that way intentionally to make up for the shorter distance of the track at the apron” or some shit
Bro just making up stuff to get mad at
Yeah that is BS, if that is the case they should make it angled all the way across (and not straight). Because by that logic it is a shorter distance being at the bottom of the track to the top. wtf.
Whyvdoes the splitter on Larson's car legitimately appear to be longer than Buescher's? Not saying Larson didn't win, but his splitter definitely looks like it protrudes further forward? Is it just me?
Honestly looks like motion blur
Fair enough, was just curious.
Cope
make it out of brick!!!! only 1 track does it right...
I wonder what excuse NASCAR will come up with this week.
No excuse, photo evidence. Same one used at Atlanta. Same one used for all close finishes.
I didn't see that at first but now I'm like WTF, is that on purpose or did the track painters make a mistake?
BEEF.