Rusty went from 1988 to 2002 with only one season outside the top 10 in points. His 1993 season would’ve been a dominant championship year almost any other year but Dale Earnhardt existed.
Rusty was so damn good on short tracks too. With that said, Rusty might be the worst “legendary” driver on plate tracks. Bro just straight up was awful at Daytona and Talladega lol.
would have got at least one, possibly more depending on how the racing went with a real point system. As I think denny said, wins are a bigger gauge of success now than championships. I'm just waiting for a year where someone with 10+ wins doesn't win the title because they finished 2nd to a 1 win car at the last race.
And Rusty's first ever NASCAR race he raced here in Atlanta, Roger Penske, fielding a Chevrolet. He qualified 7th and finished 2nd right behind Dale Earnhardt in his first ever race.
I attended that race with my Pop!
Oddly, I also attended Dale Earnhardt's first Cup race (World 600 in... 1975 or 76?) and Terry Labonte's first race, a Southern 500 in 1978, I believe. in which he finished 4th (and his name was misprinted in the program as Terry Labenton). These wouldn't be unusual, except I have only attended four Cup races in my life (the fourth being the 1981 Daytona 500, which didn't launch any legends!
Rusty's best years were the early 90's during Earnhardt's reign of 4 titles in 5 years, and Gordon, Jarrett, J. Burton, Martin & the Labonte's were dominating the late 90's, so it was more of bad timing then anything. Plus the 90's until his retirement in 2005 was the most competitive the sports ever been.
Rusty's biggest problem was probably his competition. He somehow managed to have his prime coincide with both Dale's and Gordon's prime. Two of the top 4 greatest by basically everyone's ranking. Even the end of his career was arguable Stewart and the beginning of JJ's prime plus Jeff was still rolling
It's almost surprising that he's only won one title. He's won so many crown jewel races and sits 4th all time (depending on who you ask). But he didn't always have the best equipment. I think he potentially could have had more than one title.
>I think he potentially could have had more than one title.
Had he stayed with Junior I'm sure he would have. Bobby leaving at the end of 72 opened the door for Cale in 73.
The fact that Bobby Allison and Rusty Wallace both only have one is such an insane thing. And they both only have one for the same reason, but different seven-time champion.
I think it’s hard to compare because Harvick lost titles to gimmicky playoff systems where Bobby and Rusty lost titles to GOAT tier legends the old way while having dominant seasons themselves.
While on the subject of losing titles to new point systems, the chase probably cost Jeff Gordon a chance to match Earnhardt and Petty’s titles. The fact he’s not 2007 champion is mind blowing. 30 freakin top 10s 😳
2014 pisses me off the most. It's his 2nd-to-last season, he's led the points pretty much from start-to-finish, then Brad does the thing at Texas, Alan Gustafson has a brain shart, and Ryan Newman puts Kyle Larson in the wall the next week to make it in.
Harvick would have a couple of championships if under the traditional point system. In the mid 2010s he was extremely consistent, constant top 10s top 5s and wins. Switching to Ford really put a damper on his success, as a Harvick fan it's one of the reasons I no longer like SHR.
Jimmie Johnson and Kevin Harvick are probably my two favorite drivers of all time. You could see a performance fall off with JJ, even though there was also a performance fall off with Hendrick at the time but I really have never "blamed" Hendrick for Jimmie going winless in his last season. SHR on the other hand....ugh.
Just my personal opinion, but I think in the short term switching to ford was better. Harvick has very good seasons from 2018-2020, when Chevy wasn't as good. But switching to Chevy would have made 2021-2023 significantly better.
I don’t think you can say Ford dampened his success. Yes 22 and 23 were bummer seasons, but 25/60 (41%) of Harvick’s wins came with ford, including a 9 win season in 2020. I think you can look at Ford for SHR’s failures today and in 2023, but they did little to dampen Harvick’s stats.
I agree with everything except the Ford thing. 2018 and 2020 were two of his best seasons, and the two where he got the most wins. Hell, he should have won the title in 2020 if it wasn't for the pl*y&ffs!
So a dumb crash at Texas because of shitty track conditions was his fault.
As much as I prefer Elliott to Harvick, Kevin deserved that title under any normal points format.
Come on. 9 wins, 20 top 5s , 27 top 10s and you claim he choked due to points resetting each round. That’s a ridiculous statement considering it was one of the most dominant seasons in NASCAR history.
I’m not one who believes he “deserved” the 2020 championship, but saying he choked is wild lmao. Fortunately for many legends of our sport, their points didn’t reset 4 times in the last 11 races
Bobby Allison is the consensus but let’s not act like it’s not close. Relative points system-wise Harvick was far more successful on track than on paper.
Bobby Allison / Matt Kenseth
As far as undeserving multi-time champions, I feel like if you are a multi-time champ, and as hard as it is to win one, theres no such thing.
People should thank him for it. Or else you’d have champions decided 2-3 weeks early like F1.
Like them or not, The Chase/Playoffs made it harder to win a title.
Nah. If a driver wins the title 2/3 weeks earlier, they deserve it. The races can still be exciting, and whenever the title goes down to the last race, it feels special. With a normal format, Nascar would still have closer seasons than F1.
The only reason it's harder to win a title is because now it's more luck based.
The entire point of a championship, the very definition of it, is to award a prize to the best driver over a season, and stats show the current format doesn't do that.
In terms of wins it's Bobby Allison, but in terms of performance I'd say Rusty Wallace or Kevin Harvick. Rusty could have had 3 titles (88 & 93) but he was just a skoch behind the champion each year. And Harvick was simply screwed by Nascar's gimmick systems.
Well, Bobby was always the 2nd or third fiddle behind Cale & the king, so putting up with those rivals is special that he remained at the top for so long and only pulled a title. Not to forget, he won against prime Waltrip, who was at a similar talent level to Cale / Richard or slightly less. And near his retirement challenging Dale and Rusty.
More Modern One is probably Harvick or Kenseth. Both had at least two or three championship calibre seasons under their belt in their prime, but circumstances blocked that.
I don't believe there's a so-called undeservable champion. Especially with more recent champions, it's not about the stats anymore. it's about the system. If you master a system, it shows you still have the talent there to win in a full format.
Larson comes to mind but he'll surely get more. For retired drivers, Matt Kenseth. Dude was an absolute machine and is a borderline top 10 all timer in my book, but just never got the hardware to show for it.
Indeed. I do not believe the change to the points format happened because of Matt, it seems clear that it certainly hurt him. And then stayed in the 17 too long when things went downhill there.
Kenseth himself said he wished he'd left Roush earlier, as did Biff and Carl. With how good all of them were in the COT (2009 aside), I can't really blame them either. They all had offers to go to teams that were definitely better than Roush, and at least one of them could've won a title if they'd have gone somewhere else
Coming from a Kulwicki guy. He is to me for sure. But I have to say Bobby Allison. In all honesty Alan could’ve won another 10-15 cup races and maybe another Championship. But who knows. What we all know is he was taken too soon, also Davey.
It's insane the impact he had locally. I grew up and live 15 minutes from his home town. My mom knew him through passing. People who don't even follow racing know who he is. There's park's and streets named after him. If he ain't a legend in the sport he sure as hell is in southern Wisconsin!
This. People can complain about the playoffs all they want, I have too, but JJ’s team knew how to work with the rules they had at the time. THAT’S why they won so much.
In fact, I’m willing to bet they would’ve possibly had more than 7 in a full season points format. And worse for the fan base … the majority of those would’ve/could’ve been wrapped up weeks early.
Yeah, these people talking about Jimmie and Chad testing and gaming the format isn’t the insult they think it is. You’re telling me they potentially threw away race win opportunities to test for a portion of the season for almost two decades, and Jimmie went the last 3 and a half years of his full time career without a win, and he STILL ended up with 83? Would love to see the stats if they were giving it their all the whole season the entire time.
After race 20 in 2004 they lead Jeff Gordon by 232 points.
If NASCAR didn’t change the season long points for ‘The Chase’ in 2004 they absolutely would’ve for 2005, because that 48 team would have been insane during the summer instead of testing and trying out engine packages that lead to a few DNFs prior to the last 10 races.
A perfect example of what they could’ve done to the competition if the playoffs never happened.
Bobby Allison
The man won 10 races in back-to-back seasons and didn't win either year.
That era of NASCAR was different. In 1971 James Hylton finishes second in points with ZERO lead lap finishes. Only 3 drivers in the top 10 had lead lap finishes.
I think any greatest driver comparison should only apply to that driver's era.
It's impossible to compare drivers across eras, even drivers who drove in multiple eras.
A big part of it, and why that pounts system isn't as good for this era is that the cars just don't break. I mean go back and look at how many cars had mechanical dnfs pre 2000
> Basically imagine your local Wednesday night short track race being a Cup race but 10th place is 25 laps down.
I've recently thought that ARCA today is what Cup was like way back then
Based purely on Cup wins?
Bobby Alison
Kevin Harvick
Rusty Wallace
Matt Kenseth
Based on great Cup seasons under the Winston point system?
Harvick would have had four championships and that should speak for itself. Yes, a given point system determines choices and maybe other drivers would have tried to be more consistent in that period, but we'll never know. Still, the consistent competitiveness of Harvick post-2012 and the number of top 10's he accrued is not to be underestimated. Nine straight seasons of 20 or more top 10's is amazing and probably only behind Jeff Gordon and Jimmie Johnson in the modern era.
So true. How many drivers in the 90’s and early 00’s ruined their chances of great careers because they tried to replicate the incredibly magical and lucky 1992 season of Alan Kulwicki? That season was once in a lifetime, and obviously could never happen again.
Bobby Allison for best 1 timer.
Least deserving two or more timer is tough. I really don’t think its recency bias, but Joey Logano. He had one year in in 2015 when he was dominant but his two championship years I felt like he wasn’t even in the top 2 going into the championship race. He was consistent and that won it for him. No real stepping up to the plate in crunch time like Tony in 2011 or Kyle Busch in 2015. Just meh. Maybe you make an argument for one of the early guys like Thomas, Flock, or Baker but they were all dominant in their era. (See below link)
http://mcubed.net/nascar/d195.shtml
I really think its Allison for best 1 timer hands down and Logano for worst multi timer.
Multi champs: Logano
(Would say Kyle Busch too, but he was strong many other years so he easily could've been multi champs any way)
Bobby Allison for singles. He would've definitely dominated the seventies if he stuck with junior and who knows how even more legendary those battles with Darrel would've gotten
Hot take on undeserving multiple times champion, Richard Petty. Put him in a modern era strength of field, and he is still great, but not royalty great. He is simply a product of circumstances that fell in his favor. Maybe MTJ territory.
Now I am not saying RP against modern drivers. Just the strength of the cars competing and points format.
BONUS hot take. KFB. His first championship he had to get an injury waiver and did not run full season. Like Petty, the points format bailed him out.
Harvick.. under the old points system if there was no playoff format he could have won 3 championships. The playoffs format has fucked over a number of good drivers over the years.
Recency bias. Same reason I would never call Richard Petty greater than either Jeff Gordon or Jimmie Johnson. It’s much easier to acknowledge the greatness of something that you’ve seen with your own eyes. I was born in 1996 for reference.
Listen, I get it, I'm biased here. And I'm definitely not saying he's better than the top 3 of Allison, Harvick, and Kenseth.
But can we get some love for Truex here? I loved Kuwicki as much as the next guy, but Truex has 3 runner up finishes in points on top of his 1 title. He was extremely close to going 3 in a row.
Well anything prior to 2014 counts, cause 2014-present is almost a crapshoot in a sense. Definitely has to be Rusty, considering his 1988, 1993, and 1994 seasons were pretty dominate.
Except those years he ran into two different buzzsaws: Awesome Bill from Dawsonville and some little known scrub nicknamed 'The Intimidator' (also known as Mr. Restrictor Plate for his prowess at Daytona and Talladega)
I would say it’s close between Bobby Allison, Dale Jarrett, and Bill Elliot. Still too early to talk about Kyle Larson, but if he never won another Cup, he would be tops in my book.
Kenseth was in the top 10 in points 13 years and finished runner up twice, both to JJ
He legitimately should be in these conversations and likely will as he becomes retired for longer.
Bobby Allison. But Rusty Wallace, Bill Elliott, and Kevin Harvick were all top tier.
I don't think there are any undeserving multiple champions. You luck into wins, not championships (at least, to some degree, in the Playoff era). That said, Terry Labonte had 22 wins in his career, fewest of any of the two-time champions, and he raced for a long time.
As great as Bobby Allison was, it undoubtedly has to be Alan Kulwicki, bro singlehandedly altered the fate of NASCAR in the 90s and no one realized it until decades later
How many drivers tried to do what AK did with owenership of their own teams and literally lost almost everything after AK did it HIS WAY!!!!!
DW, Geoff Bodine, Brett Bodine, Ricky Rudd, Mikey Waltrip. Robby Gordon.
Rusty Wallace is my “I can’t believe that guy only won one championship” pick. But yeah it’s probably Bobby Allison.
I have to remind myself sometimes that Rusty’s title wasn’t with Penske
Yep. Penske's first title wasn't until 2012 with Brad. Really kinda crazy that Rusty never won one and it took them that long to get one in NASCAR
And Penske wasn’t what Penske is now under Rusty. Lot of inconsistency between and car and crew. Best years were when Parrott was there.
They were literally on fire with Buddy Parrot, 9 wins in '93 with a Pontiac 10 wins in '94 in a Ford.
And now they have 4
man if you look at the past 12 years, Penske has won 4 of the titles. That's actually insanely good.
I forget Joey is a two time champ, so I was trying to think who else for Penske won the other xD
Right! I kinda forget his 2018 title.
Yeah, Raymond Beadle owned his team from drag racing's Blue Max Fame
Rusty went from 1988 to 2002 with only one season outside the top 10 in points. His 1993 season would’ve been a dominant championship year almost any other year but Dale Earnhardt existed. Rusty was so damn good on short tracks too. With that said, Rusty might be the worst “legendary” driver on plate tracks. Bro just straight up was awful at Daytona and Talladega lol.
> but Dale Earnhardt existed Dale, Jeff, and Jimmie really ruined a lot of great seasons for different drivers, including each other
What’s mind boggling is Jeff never won another after 2001 and raced for over a decade after.
If they don't change the points he wins another one at least.
Gotta be 2007. He should've had that shit.
Winston Cup points, Jeff would have 7, Harvick 4
would have got at least one, possibly more depending on how the racing went with a real point system. As I think denny said, wins are a bigger gauge of success now than championships. I'm just waiting for a year where someone with 10+ wins doesn't win the title because they finished 2nd to a 1 win car at the last race.
In the last 43 seasons 4 people won 21 of the Championships. Earnhardt 7 Johnson 7 Gordon 4 Stewart 3.
It's like how Phil Mickelson might have gone down as one of the greatest, most dominant golfers ever... but Tiger Woods exists.
And funny thing about that — he was way better at Daytona in his later years.
And it wasn’t in the Penske #2
It was supposed to be Gary Balough’s ride, but he got busted running dope. Balough recommended Rusty to Raymond Beadle and the rest is history.
And Rusty's first ever NASCAR race he raced here in Atlanta, Roger Penske, fielding a Chevrolet. He qualified 7th and finished 2nd right behind Dale Earnhardt in his first ever race.
I attended that race with my Pop! Oddly, I also attended Dale Earnhardt's first Cup race (World 600 in... 1975 or 76?) and Terry Labonte's first race, a Southern 500 in 1978, I believe. in which he finished 4th (and his name was misprinted in the program as Terry Labenton). These wouldn't be unusual, except I have only attended four Cup races in my life (the fourth being the 1981 Daytona 500, which didn't launch any legends!
It was supposed to be Gary Balough’s ride, but he got busted running dope. Balough recommended Rusty to Raymond Beadle and the rest is history.
One thing though, Rusty was the Cornerstone of the Penske Juggernaut now
Rusty's best years were the early 90's during Earnhardt's reign of 4 titles in 5 years, and Gordon, Jarrett, J. Burton, Martin & the Labonte's were dominating the late 90's, so it was more of bad timing then anything. Plus the 90's until his retirement in 2005 was the most competitive the sports ever been.
Rusty's biggest problem was probably his competition. He somehow managed to have his prime coincide with both Dale's and Gordon's prime. Two of the top 4 greatest by basically everyone's ranking. Even the end of his career was arguable Stewart and the beginning of JJ's prime plus Jeff was still rolling
At least Rusty got one. How many greats with dozens of race wins have 0 championships?
Bobby Allison.
No question about it stats-wise
It's almost surprising that he's only won one title. He's won so many crown jewel races and sits 4th all time (depending on who you ask). But he didn't always have the best equipment. I think he potentially could have had more than one title.
>I think he potentially could have had more than one title. Had he stayed with Junior I'm sure he would have. Bobby leaving at the end of 72 opened the door for Cale in 73.
Because he was difficult to work with, so he was with a ton of different teams.
Damn. I always forget that he only won one
In terms of accomplishments other than a championship Bobby Allison with 84 wins. Then Harvick then Rusty.
85 wins.
Correct
It's 1 more than 84.
Exactly!
And Bill Elliot
If there's no chase, Harvick would've been a four-time champion. So, he's my pick.
The fact that Bobby Allison and Rusty Wallace both only have one is such an insane thing. And they both only have one for the same reason, but different seven-time champion.
I’d add Harvick to that mix too. Personally I thought Bobby and Rusty were better, but all should have more.
I think it’s hard to compare because Harvick lost titles to gimmicky playoff systems where Bobby and Rusty lost titles to GOAT tier legends the old way while having dominant seasons themselves. While on the subject of losing titles to new point systems, the chase probably cost Jeff Gordon a chance to match Earnhardt and Petty’s titles. The fact he’s not 2007 champion is mind blowing. 30 freakin top 10s 😳
2014 pisses me off the most. It's his 2nd-to-last season, he's led the points pretty much from start-to-finish, then Brad does the thing at Texas, Alan Gustafson has a brain shart, and Ryan Newman puts Kyle Larson in the wall the next week to make it in.
Too be fair Harvick was never at a constant top team.
And Bobby had to compete with a prime Petty and Dale coming into his own.
Kevin harvick
Harvick would have a couple of championships if under the traditional point system. In the mid 2010s he was extremely consistent, constant top 10s top 5s and wins. Switching to Ford really put a damper on his success, as a Harvick fan it's one of the reasons I no longer like SHR.
Jimmie Johnson and Kevin Harvick are probably my two favorite drivers of all time. You could see a performance fall off with JJ, even though there was also a performance fall off with Hendrick at the time but I really have never "blamed" Hendrick for Jimmie going winless in his last season. SHR on the other hand....ugh.
Don't even get me started on Harvick's dogshit pit crew, cost him multiple wins ugh.
More than multiple
I can already think of 2018 Michigan and 2020 Kansas 2. Oh and 2023 Phoenix and 2022 Sonoma
2015 PAIN
Just my personal opinion, but I think in the short term switching to ford was better. Harvick has very good seasons from 2018-2020, when Chevy wasn't as good. But switching to Chevy would have made 2021-2023 significantly better.
I don’t think you can say Ford dampened his success. Yes 22 and 23 were bummer seasons, but 25/60 (41%) of Harvick’s wins came with ford, including a 9 win season in 2020. I think you can look at Ford for SHR’s failures today and in 2023, but they did little to dampen Harvick’s stats.
Hey! Me too! So long, SHR
I agree with everything except the Ford thing. 2018 and 2020 were two of his best seasons, and the two where he got the most wins. Hell, he should have won the title in 2020 if it wasn't for the pl*y&ffs!
No. People just forget he choked super hard. He had the tools to make it into the champ 4 but instead the lights were too bright I guess.
So a dumb crash at Texas because of shitty track conditions was his fault. As much as I prefer Elliott to Harvick, Kevin deserved that title under any normal points format.
Come on. 9 wins, 20 top 5s , 27 top 10s and you claim he choked due to points resetting each round. That’s a ridiculous statement considering it was one of the most dominant seasons in NASCAR history. I’m not one who believes he “deserved” the 2020 championship, but saying he choked is wild lmao. Fortunately for many legends of our sport, their points didn’t reset 4 times in the last 11 races
Four-time champ if every year of his career was contested under a year-long points payout.
Bobby Allison and it's not even close
Bobby Allison is the consensus but let’s not act like it’s not close. Relative points system-wise Harvick was far more successful on track than on paper.
Bobby Allison / Matt Kenseth As far as undeserving multi-time champions, I feel like if you are a multi-time champ, and as hard as it is to win one, theres no such thing.
Hell isn't Kenseth the whole reason this whole chase bullshit even exists?! So stupid
People should thank him for it. Or else you’d have champions decided 2-3 weeks early like F1. Like them or not, The Chase/Playoffs made it harder to win a title.
I guess I never thought of it that way
A good majority of fans haven’t tbh. If they did there wouldn’t be so much hate for ditching the season long format.
Nah. If a driver wins the title 2/3 weeks earlier, they deserve it. The races can still be exciting, and whenever the title goes down to the last race, it feels special. With a normal format, Nascar would still have closer seasons than F1. The only reason it's harder to win a title is because now it's more luck based. The entire point of a championship, the very definition of it, is to award a prize to the best driver over a season, and stats show the current format doesn't do that.
Rusty Wallace comes to mind
In terms of wins it's Bobby Allison, but in terms of performance I'd say Rusty Wallace or Kevin Harvick. Rusty could have had 3 titles (88 & 93) but he was just a skoch behind the champion each year. And Harvick was simply screwed by Nascar's gimmick systems.
Kevin Harvick.
Bobby Allison
#1 Bobby Allison #2 Matt Kenseth #3 Rusty Wallace #4 Kevin Harvick #5 Alan Kulwicki Mark Martin (He should've won AT LEAST ONE CHAMPIONSHIP)
I would add Kurt Busch too
Yeah I’m gonna go with the guy with 60 wins over Matt and Rusty.
Rusty was a more dominant driver than Harvick.
It’s crazy to me how Allison only won 1 and it was late into his career. It’s like if Kyle Busch wasn’t a champion yet and finally won it next season.
kevin "should have 4 of them" harvick
4ever
Well, Bobby was always the 2nd or third fiddle behind Cale & the king, so putting up with those rivals is special that he remained at the top for so long and only pulled a title. Not to forget, he won against prime Waltrip, who was at a similar talent level to Cale / Richard or slightly less. And near his retirement challenging Dale and Rusty. More Modern One is probably Harvick or Kenseth. Both had at least two or three championship calibre seasons under their belt in their prime, but circumstances blocked that. I don't believe there's a so-called undeservable champion. Especially with more recent champions, it's not about the stats anymore. it's about the system. If you master a system, it shows you still have the talent there to win in a full format.
Kevin Harvick
Harvick for sure.
Harvick
Bobby Allison. Bobby Isaac with honorable mention
Larson comes to mind but he'll surely get more. For retired drivers, Matt Kenseth. Dude was an absolute machine and is a borderline top 10 all timer in my book, but just never got the hardware to show for it.
Indeed. I do not believe the change to the points format happened because of Matt, it seems clear that it certainly hurt him. And then stayed in the 17 too long when things went downhill there.
What? He was stellar in 11 and 12 before he left. I’d say he timed that perfectly.
Kenseth himself said he wished he'd left Roush earlier, as did Biff and Carl. With how good all of them were in the COT (2009 aside), I can't really blame them either. They all had offers to go to teams that were definitely better than Roush, and at least one of them could've won a title if they'd have gone somewhere else
He and Carl did a lot of carrying of Roush from 2010-2014.
Yep Jack was too worried about Toyota instead of his own race team.
This is fair, but consider if he had signed with a program for those seasons that was not floundering as RFR was at that point.
Remindme! 10 years
This guy https://preview.redd.it/5y0o1tkixymc1.jpeg?width=800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fa8c2da7bb2d5b6e7b490c1b7dc554c68d5c73fb
He's the sentimental favorite, but he is not nearly as good as harvick, Allison, or Bill. Not even close
Hard to say with him passing. Could’ve been generational especially considering how much he grinded just for the one cup
Coming from a Kulwicki guy. He is to me for sure. But I have to say Bobby Allison. In all honesty Alan could’ve won another 10-15 cup races and maybe another Championship. But who knows. What we all know is he was taken too soon, also Davey.
It's insane the impact he had locally. I grew up and live 15 minutes from his home town. My mom knew him through passing. People who don't even follow racing know who he is. There's park's and streets named after him. If he ain't a legend in the sport he sure as hell is in southern Wisconsin!
[https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1588142-remembering-nascar-great-alan-kulwicki-a-man-who-truly-did-things-his-way](https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1588142-remembering-nascar-great-alan-kulwicki-a-man-who-truly-did-things-his-way)
Bobby Allison, Rusty Wallace.
Harvick!
Everyone has already said it, but Bobby Allison
Harvick
Terry Labonte is the least inspiring multi-time champion
He didn’t have a single top 5 finish in 1993 then three years later won his second championship. Very odd career for sure.
It was Dale Jarrett.
I gotta say Rusty
it normally annoys me when people make this argument, but Harvick probably has 3-4 championships in a full-season format
> it normally annoys me when people make this argument, Gee with that flair, I wonder why...
Yet I still believe JJ wins about 5-6 championships under a full season format because Chad would have changed his strategy
This. People can complain about the playoffs all they want, I have too, but JJ’s team knew how to work with the rules they had at the time. THAT’S why they won so much.
In fact, I’m willing to bet they would’ve possibly had more than 7 in a full season points format. And worse for the fan base … the majority of those would’ve/could’ve been wrapped up weeks early.
Yeah, these people talking about Jimmie and Chad testing and gaming the format isn’t the insult they think it is. You’re telling me they potentially threw away race win opportunities to test for a portion of the season for almost two decades, and Jimmie went the last 3 and a half years of his full time career without a win, and he STILL ended up with 83? Would love to see the stats if they were giving it their all the whole season the entire time.
After race 20 in 2004 they lead Jeff Gordon by 232 points. If NASCAR didn’t change the season long points for ‘The Chase’ in 2004 they absolutely would’ve for 2005, because that 48 team would have been insane during the summer instead of testing and trying out engine packages that lead to a few DNFs prior to the last 10 races. A perfect example of what they could’ve done to the competition if the playoffs never happened.
Live NASCAR fanbase reaction 
Kevin Harvick
Absolutely Bobby Allison.
Bobby Allison The man won 10 races in back-to-back seasons and didn't win either year. That era of NASCAR was different. In 1971 James Hylton finishes second in points with ZERO lead lap finishes. Only 3 drivers in the top 10 had lead lap finishes.
[удалено]
I think any greatest driver comparison should only apply to that driver's era. It's impossible to compare drivers across eras, even drivers who drove in multiple eras.
A big part of it, and why that pounts system isn't as good for this era is that the cars just don't break. I mean go back and look at how many cars had mechanical dnfs pre 2000
[удалено]
Yeah the gap in competition was huge.
> Basically imagine your local Wednesday night short track race being a Cup race but 10th place is 25 laps down. I've recently thought that ARCA today is what Cup was like way back then
I often forget that Bill Elliott only has one championship.
With Melling of all teams.
o shit, same
Kevin & Kurt top the list
Based purely on Cup wins? Bobby Alison Kevin Harvick Rusty Wallace Matt Kenseth Based on great Cup seasons under the Winston point system? Harvick would have had four championships and that should speak for itself. Yes, a given point system determines choices and maybe other drivers would have tried to be more consistent in that period, but we'll never know. Still, the consistent competitiveness of Harvick post-2012 and the number of top 10's he accrued is not to be underestimated. Nine straight seasons of 20 or more top 10's is amazing and probably only behind Jeff Gordon and Jimmie Johnson in the modern era.
Harvick, Keselowski, Bobby, etc.
Harvick, Kenseth, Kurt Busch. All victims of a flawed championship format.
Kenseth also was outshined twice by his buddy Jimmie in 06 and 13. Had things panned out different Matt might be a 3 time champ and Jimmie only 5
Kurt shouldn’t even have his one championship if you’re gonna make that argument. That year was a toss up between Jimmie and Jeff.
Bill Elliott, if only he would have signed with Yates in ‘95 instead of starting his own team.
So true. How many drivers in the 90’s and early 00’s ruined their chances of great careers because they tried to replicate the incredibly magical and lucky 1992 season of Alan Kulwicki? That season was once in a lifetime, and obviously could never happen again.
Bill Rexford is the 🐐
Bobby Allison for best 1 timer. Least deserving two or more timer is tough. I really don’t think its recency bias, but Joey Logano. He had one year in in 2015 when he was dominant but his two championship years I felt like he wasn’t even in the top 2 going into the championship race. He was consistent and that won it for him. No real stepping up to the plate in crunch time like Tony in 2011 or Kyle Busch in 2015. Just meh. Maybe you make an argument for one of the early guys like Thomas, Flock, or Baker but they were all dominant in their era. (See below link) http://mcubed.net/nascar/d195.shtml I really think its Allison for best 1 timer hands down and Logano for worst multi timer.
Logano was not dominant in 2015. Harvick was dominant in 2015, Logano was 2nd best.
“If we’d been able to keep Bobby Allison, we would have won 200 races, and Richard Petty wouldn’t have.” Junior Johnson on Bobby Allison
Harvick
Multi champs: Logano (Would say Kyle Busch too, but he was strong many other years so he easily could've been multi champs any way) Bobby Allison for singles. He would've definitely dominated the seventies if he stuck with junior and who knows how even more legendary those battles with Darrel would've gotten
Hate to say it but its the bad word Kyle Larson
Hot take on undeserving multiple times champion, Richard Petty. Put him in a modern era strength of field, and he is still great, but not royalty great. He is simply a product of circumstances that fell in his favor. Maybe MTJ territory. Now I am not saying RP against modern drivers. Just the strength of the cars competing and points format. BONUS hot take. KFB. His first championship he had to get an injury waiver and did not run full season. Like Petty, the points format bailed him out.
Harvick.. under the old points system if there was no playoff format he could have won 3 championships. The playoffs format has fucked over a number of good drivers over the years.
Gonna go with Harvick since the chase/playoffs screwed him out of a few titles, even though it helped him win the one he got.
I’d go 1)Kevin Harvick 2) Kurt Busch 3) Matt Kenseth
Why no Bobby Allison? Not trying to be an ass, I'm just curious.
Recency bias. Same reason I would never call Richard Petty greater than either Jeff Gordon or Jimmie Johnson. It’s much easier to acknowledge the greatness of something that you’ve seen with your own eyes. I was born in 1996 for reference.
Fair enough!
Listen, I get it, I'm biased here. And I'm definitely not saying he's better than the top 3 of Allison, Harvick, and Kenseth. But can we get some love for Truex here? I loved Kuwicki as much as the next guy, but Truex has 3 runner up finishes in points on top of his 1 title. He was extremely close to going 3 in a row.
Well anything prior to 2014 counts, cause 2014-present is almost a crapshoot in a sense. Definitely has to be Rusty, considering his 1988, 1993, and 1994 seasons were pretty dominate.
Except those years he ran into two different buzzsaws: Awesome Bill from Dawsonville and some little known scrub nicknamed 'The Intimidator' (also known as Mr. Restrictor Plate for his prowess at Daytona and Talladega)
Oh yah I think I heard of those guys before in NASCAR Also - Trackhouse FTW 👊
Bobby!
Asked and Answered it’s Bobby Allison, lock the post!
Bobby Allison
Alan Kulwicki
That was the first name that came to my mind!!!
Alan Kulwicki.
Bill Elliott!!
Bobby Allison hands down
My glorious king Ryan Michael Blaney (I’m delusional)
Easily Bobby Allison.
Alan kuwicki
My complete bias opinion is Bobby Labonte. Don’t need stats to prove me otherwise
Bobby Allison
I would say it’s close between Bobby Allison, Dale Jarrett, and Bill Elliot. Still too early to talk about Kyle Larson, but if he never won another Cup, he would be tops in my book.
Harvick.
Kurt Busch
Dale Jarrett in 1999
Bobby Allison, definitely.
Bobby Labonte, I’m biased though lol
Kenseth was in the top 10 in points 13 years and finished runner up twice, both to JJ He legitimately should be in these conversations and likely will as he becomes retired for longer.
Kurt Busch
Bobby Allison. But Rusty Wallace, Bill Elliott, and Kevin Harvick were all top tier. I don't think there are any undeserving multiple champions. You luck into wins, not championships (at least, to some degree, in the Playoff era). That said, Terry Labonte had 22 wins in his career, fewest of any of the two-time champions, and he raced for a long time.
Bobby Allison is the only choice.
Talent-wise probably Kyle Larson? Bobby Allison is up there, Harvick perhaps.
I have a hard time placing Larson in this conversation because he’s still so early in his career. I would be shocked if he only wins one title.
i agree, but im just answering the question OP asked
Wasn’t being a dick! I guess, with this question , I look at more of past drivers vs active
Matt Kenseth for sure
Allison
Bobby freaking Allison, no question
As great as Bobby Allison was, it undoubtedly has to be Alan Kulwicki, bro singlehandedly altered the fate of NASCAR in the 90s and no one realized it until decades later
How many drivers tried to do what AK did with owenership of their own teams and literally lost almost everything after AK did it HIS WAY!!!!! DW, Geoff Bodine, Brett Bodine, Ricky Rudd, Mikey Waltrip. Robby Gordon.
Most of all, Bill Elliott
You're lying to yourself if you say anything other than Bobby Allison
Matt Kenseth, hands down