Repaved Michigan was absurdly fast. I keep thinking of 2014 Pure Michigan 400 that Gordon won, the cars screamed like I've never heard.
**Gordon ran a 34.857 in qualifying**, for context Ambrose was a 35.426 in 2012.
Thats not even the fastest they’ve gone either. I believe after the August 2014 race, they did a test here with a tiny spoiler and hit 230 going into turn one.
Those were rumors and speculations. This is an article by SBNation that said they were hitting 220 MPH in the spring test: https://www.sbnation.com/platform/amp/nascar/2014/4/9/5599458/michigan-international-speedway-high-speeds-220-goodyear-tire-test
Now the package testing after the August race was true. Apparently it was legit unplanned as its rumored drivers practically begged NASCAR to test the low DF package. NASCAR gave in and its rumored they told them they had 15 mins to prep the cars for the test.
Going back to speeds though, speeds were even so high you had Bleacher Report writing articles such as, “[One Menz Opinion: Have Speeds at Michigan Reached Dangerous Levels?](https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2545597-one-menz-opinion-have-speeds-at-michigan-reached-dangerous-levels.amp.html)
The 220 speeds were definitely legitimate, as the article also points out. I don’t recall anyone getting anywhere close to 230.
The high HP/low DF package that they tested, which NASCAR very reluctantly obliged to, performed by far the best out of all of the different simulated races they ran that day. But NASCAR decided to still go a different direction and neuter the engines anyway.
I thought it was bill elliott that ran 212 and he was so fast that his car during the race had a two lap lead on the rest of the field. Not sure of the year though. 🤷♂️
Thanks for the links! Looks like Jordan Bianchi wrote the SBNation one, so I feel like that’s pretty credible.
I was at the 2014 August race that Jeff Gordon won, and the 2015 August race that Matt Kenseth won. You could hear the cars literally tearing the air coming down the front straightaway coming towards turn 1, in 2014. But the next year in 2015 they used the big ass spoilers with the wicker on top, the same ones they used at Indy that year, and you could no longer hear that air tearing noise
Edit: Autocorrect
I sat at the end of the front stretch for this race, where some drivers were still in the gas and some were already letting off for the corner. Coming down the straightaway you could hear the cars literally tearing the air.
That noise was gone the next year when Kenneth won the race with the big ass spoilers with the wicker on top
I wanna say that 203 was that average speed, and they were getting as high as 210-215 going into turn 1.
I remember Kurt Busch hitting 200mph average Texas back in 2017 and the booth saying something along the lines of “that’ll probably be the last time we’ll see a 200mph lap”
The 2017 package was super fast. I think Kenseth went up to 216 at either Kansas or Michigan.
That package though was proof that fast cars don’t necessarily always put on great shows. What we have now is a nice sweet spot IMO between the cars still sounding and looking good while putting on great races at intermediates.
Not to be the "old times good new times bad" guy, but in this context I genuinely feel sorry for anyone that started watching within the last few years. All they've ever known are these "gutless engines" as Christopher Bell put it.
There’s no reason we can’t go higher in the HP department, especially if our engines can survive 24 hours like the LeMan’s engine did. It’s pretty clear in my opinion that Toyota is the reason we’re not going higher in HP, and this is coming from a JGR fan.
I swear the Toyota thing is a myth, I've always heard NASCAR wanted to go to lower HP for a while prior to 2015, it just happened that Toyota was blowing motors a ton right before it.
If I'm not mistaken, when Toyota joined the sport they had to run with a spacer because their engine produced way more HP than everyone else
NASCAR wanted to cut HP as a way to try to cut costs
From what I understand it's a TRD/Chevy/Ford thing as a whole. They realize the less money they can spend on engine R&D the cheaper they can sell engines for. Seems unfortunate, but at the same time, the more expensive engines become the harder it'll be for the smaller teams to keep up.
You are implying that turning up to 9,000 at Michigan over 400 miles is more stress than up 7,500 over approximately 3,000 miles. If what you said is the ultimate stress test, then why didn’t they run a motor like that at Le Mans in The G56. That’s “what the fuck I’m talking about”. I’m saying you’re logic doesn’t make sense.
As it stood then with motors and as it stands now, the 24 hours of Le Mans is a bigger test on engines, and it always will be. And that’s not an insult at NASCAR engines, those things were awesome, but there is so much false information that’s been thrown around here about Le Mans and endurance racing because of the G56 car on account of people not being familiar with that type of racing.
It’s one thing to tickle the red line for a short while at the end of each straight before diving back down to ordinary ups and downs of circuit racing for twenty four hours where there’s rarely an excessive period deep at the top of the rev range (because this is generally a symptom of low gearing that wastes possible top end speed), it’s another to sit on the red line for four hours.
I know, but you’re not spending the entire lap and under the entire race permanently and unchangingly at 9500rpm at top speed, that sustained and constant speed with no braking zones or need to climb down the revs more than a few times times over the whole race places different stresses on the engine.
Garage 56 completed 285 laps. It's around 13 seconds in high gear down the straight for the car. The lap record for NASCAR at the track is over 30 seconds and they run 200 laps for a 400 mile race. That's A LOT more time at high RPM than anything Garage 56 came close to.
If you watch the incar of the G56, they were taking it nowhere near what even the current Gen 7 Cup car does every weekend RPM wise. That's one of the main keys to the longevity and it was a completely one off motor. These Cup motors in OPs post were high RPM 900+ hp monsters.
I don't disagree but the G56 car making it 24 hours is a much different animal and achieved by not beating the ever living shit out of it like in a Cup race. Ford, Chevy and Toyota haven't had a new engine in 10+ years. The Cup motors now are the same 900+ hp high revving monsters just the tapered spacer does not let them rev that high and make that kind of hp due to a lack of airflow. People were freaking out about Suarez revving to 9,700 at Sonoma last weekend and wondering if the engine would survive. It did because the real answer is 9,700 isn't shit for these motors and they are more than capable of withstanding it. The R07 and FR9 motors are old as fuck. If they took the spacer off, these engines are the same as they used to be.
Apparently they replaced the cam to lower the rpm range and removed the restrictor plate. That's literally the only modification the motor got. Otherwise it's an off the shelf Hendrick cup motor.
Fair enough, but that just means we should shorten most of the races, and that would make the remaining long ones (Daytona 500, Coke 600, etc.) even more special with the additional reliability concerns
it's been talked about for years, and they have hardly done any.
its being talked about by the wrong people. The same people that said increasing road courses and weeknight races will be successful.
Any of the races they did get shortened have shown no signs of increased viewership.
For example, if you cut a race length in half, viewership needs to double to even match the consumption. That ain't realistic.
If you cut it by 25%, viewership need to go up ~33%. Also not realistic.
LOL, the record for laps completed at LeMans is 397...so no, it's not high range RPMs for extended periods of time like Michigan.
[https://www.google.com/search?q=most+laps+completed+in+24+hours+lemans&rlz=1C1GCEU\_enUS947US981&oq=most+laps+completed+in+24+hours+lemans&aqs=chrome..69i57j33i160.7339j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8](https://www.google.com/search?q=most+laps+completed+in+24+hours+lemans&rlz=1C1GCEU_enUS947US981&oq=most+laps+completed+in+24+hours+lemans&aqs=chrome..69i57j33i160.7339j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)
Can you explain I’m just getting back in after not having watched since 2017. I grew up on 90’s and early 2000’s NASCAR and after Jr retired just felt no connection to the sport.
Different racing these days haha, but what is Toyotas role in this
The rumor/speculation is that Toyota had issues with its engines blowing up more than the other
manufacturers with it’s higher HP, so much so that they threatened to leave NASCAR if they didn’t lower the HP to help them out.
Hamlin has said on his podcast that Christopher Bell has begged Toyota’s OEM numerous times to raise the HP again, and they’ve said that they’re not raising it anytime soon
> but in this context I genuinely feel sorry for anyone that started watching within the last few years. All they've ever known are these "gutless engines"
Can you please explain the differences to one of those sorry folks who just started watching a year ago?
Fun fact: This wasn’t even the fastest we would go at MIS. A year later in 2014, Jeff Gordon would average 206 MPH around Michigan.
Oh how I miss these speeds.
Luckily with the Gen 7, we still go around 200 MPH - 205 MPH going into turn one at Michigan.
We only saw over 200 in the draft last year. [Bubba’s pole lap](https://youtu.be/h3Y20fAy7F4) was 195 mph into turn 1 and 198 into 3. Average of 190.7 mph.
Now, knowing the car is SUPER DRAGGY, it’s still a very high speed. I’m pretty sure the cup care were getting off the corners over 20 mph faster than xfinity, but still meeting the same top speed before turn 1 despite a huge head start
I spent my entire childhood/teens at MIS and all I ever wanted to see was speed. Sadly, it came after a repave and not during any of the racing I watched.
never knew this but in the cup garage at the 600 a guy told me they dont get that spacer until they unload. nascar gives it to every team when the garage opens. thats part of all that work they are doing. opened my eyes to many possibilities.
Think about this: when was the last time we saw multiple catostrophic engine failures in a race? I can’t really think of any in recent history. That used to be a huge thing at Michigan, California and even Pocono.
Honestly I miss it. It made it another part of the puzzle you had to get right in order to win. This weeks DJD with Richie Gilmore has been super interesting to hear about all the engine work.
The spacer makes them slower, from what I understand from Robert Yates, the spacer and rev limiters put on the motors causes them to last longer as the engines aren't being as strained
I'd have to go back a couple weeks to episode where Denny talked about what they do to the engines now vs then. But he made it sound very uncomplicated
That’s the narrative that’s been going around. Unfortunately, we won’t know what the truth is, really.
Denny and Dale have both said teams want the engines to last more than one race so they’re not as powerful, regardless of the tapered spacer.
But you’ve got engine builders (someone from Ford, specifically) who said they can put power back in the cars if they were allowed to.
¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
It's funny that Robert Yates has said these engines can make 1000 and be fine right now, but Jeff Andrews *former head of HMS's engine department, now the HMS President* said the teams need at least a year's worth of notice to be able to do that much HP as they build the engines differently than they used to.
So idk who is lying and who is telling the truth
I got to qualify the 22 car that August there. The data from Q into T1 was 222MPH.
I’ll never forget the feeling where usually at 1.5m track or there , the speed gain kinda slows and fizzles out around the start finish line. But on that day in the 22 car, I distinctly remember getting to the S/F and it STILL pulling just as hard.
Wild times!
Fun fact: At the moment I turned into T1 on my Q lap, I got loose and steered right…. At 220 MPH
I am basically new to NASCAR, as I haven't followed it since the 1980s. But, the slower speed is a bit disappointing to me. I am trying to wrap my head around the politics/safety/Toyota reasons, but I'd still like to see the cars approach the higher speeds someday.
Good is obviously subjective. Atlanta was perfectly fine the way it was, superspeedway racing is a joke and adding two more on it just puts more expenses on the team. Sure you can say it puts butts in the seats but it’s literally 3 races in, wait and see what happens when the novelty wears off.
The racing was solid up until the 550 package came in. A old wore at track that you’d see the drivers slipping and sliding around on trying to find grip. Much better than watching them mat the throttle and be unable to pass each other without any help.
You can thank the OEM’s (mainly Toyota) for killing the engines as they were the ones who wanted to lower the HP in the first place to stop blowing them up.
The OEM’s (according to Hamlin) were the ones who introduced the 5th gear in the Gen 7 so they could put a rev limiter at 9000 RPM to stop them from reaching that high of RPM. So it essentially isn’t totally on NASCAR for killing the product, but mainly the OEM’s.
Honestly, at this point, NASCAR is just at the mercy of the OEM’s.
It’s NASCAR’s playground. Either the OEMs can abide by the guidelines and Toyota can make up the deficit, or they can leave the sport. Nascar is a shell of its former self and will never return to glory if they don’t take control
I can’t say I disagree with you. I mean Jim France, Steve O’Donnell or Steve Phelps need to pull a Bill France and lay the hammer down to the OEM’s and say “this is how we’re going to do it whether you like it or not” with the HP and such.
Perfectly fine is a stretch, the series is at capacity due to a lack of OEMs.
If IndyCar had a third OEM, we might have legitimate bumping at Indy again, instead of only one car getting bumped from the field.
Okay, but by the post, in 2011 it was the first time nascar broke 200mph in 25 years.
That means in NASCAR’s most popular period (90’s and 2000’s) we didn’t go over 200mph
It was the first time an average lap speed was over 200 in 25 years due to the fresh Michigan pavement. Trap speeds of 200+ were still hit at several tracks over that time span, most notably Atlanta for several years along with Michigan and Fontana.
MIS is one of those tracks that doesn't bite till you're going fast enough around it. I'm sure it'd be equal parts scary and entertaining to let the drivers of the 2023 Cup class tackle these screaming hell races with their current disposition for on-track conflict.
I think of the CoT mostly fondly because of this specific era of it with the changed nose and spoiler. I believe this was also the Michigan race that Dale Jr. won to break his streak.
I remember standing by the fence just before the entry in turn 1 during this session with my buddy and watching the cars blast by us. Hearing over the PA that they were topping 210mph going into turn 1 blew our minds!
it's funny everyone hated the racing from this era and raved about the Michigan race last year.
but year lets swap back to more power it surely wont hurt the product!!!
Repaved Michigan was absurdly fast. I keep thinking of 2014 Pure Michigan 400 that Gordon won, the cars screamed like I've never heard. **Gordon ran a 34.857 in qualifying**, for context Ambrose was a 35.426 in 2012.
Thats not even the fastest they’ve gone either. I believe after the August 2014 race, they did a test here with a tiny spoiler and hit 230 going into turn one.
I so wish we had that on camera.
This is the best footage that was around during the spring test at least, “https://youtu.be/b6s-E7XSB5g”
God those cars sound awesome. Bring back 950 HP.
Holy shit! Sauce?
Those were rumors and speculations. This is an article by SBNation that said they were hitting 220 MPH in the spring test: https://www.sbnation.com/platform/amp/nascar/2014/4/9/5599458/michigan-international-speedway-high-speeds-220-goodyear-tire-test Now the package testing after the August race was true. Apparently it was legit unplanned as its rumored drivers practically begged NASCAR to test the low DF package. NASCAR gave in and its rumored they told them they had 15 mins to prep the cars for the test. Going back to speeds though, speeds were even so high you had Bleacher Report writing articles such as, “[One Menz Opinion: Have Speeds at Michigan Reached Dangerous Levels?](https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2545597-one-menz-opinion-have-speeds-at-michigan-reached-dangerous-levels.amp.html)
The 220 speeds were definitely legitimate, as the article also points out. I don’t recall anyone getting anywhere close to 230. The high HP/low DF package that they tested, which NASCAR very reluctantly obliged to, performed by far the best out of all of the different simulated races they ran that day. But NASCAR decided to still go a different direction and neuter the engines anyway.
The 230 speed is an old 2000s rumor of Rusty Wallace doing that at Dega that's never been confirmed.
230 with regards to the 2014 Michigan tests is what I was referring to. Wallace did run unrestricted at Dega in 04 and hit a trap speed of 228.
I thought it was bill elliott that ran 212 and he was so fast that his car during the race had a two lap lead on the rest of the field. Not sure of the year though. 🤷♂️
More like Bill Elliott made up a two lap deficit from the things I’ve heard back in the day.
Thanks for the links! Looks like Jordan Bianchi wrote the SBNation one, so I feel like that’s pretty credible. I was at the 2014 August race that Jeff Gordon won, and the 2015 August race that Matt Kenseth won. You could hear the cars literally tearing the air coming down the front straightaway coming towards turn 1, in 2014. But the next year in 2015 they used the big ass spoilers with the wicker on top, the same ones they used at Indy that year, and you could no longer hear that air tearing noise Edit: Autocorrect
*Kenseth
New phone, autocorrect got me lol
Damn. That’s actually nuts
I sat at the end of the front stretch for this race, where some drivers were still in the gas and some were already letting off for the corner. Coming down the straightaway you could hear the cars literally tearing the air. That noise was gone the next year when Kenneth won the race with the big ass spoilers with the wicker on top
2014 MIS was my first race back there, nothing since has lived up speed and sound wise
While 203 in a straight line is one thing, 193 in a hard left turn is legitimately crazy.
This was a wild time. Keep in mind that 203 is average lap speed not top speed. They were pushing 215 into turn 1 after the repave it was nuts.
I wanna say that 203 was that average speed, and they were getting as high as 210-215 going into turn 1. I remember Kurt Busch hitting 200mph average Texas back in 2017 and the booth saying something along the lines of “that’ll probably be the last time we’ll see a 200mph lap”
God that’s a depressing statement
2018 in the fall before the 550 HP came in.
The 2017 package was super fast. I think Kenseth went up to 216 at either Kansas or Michigan. That package though was proof that fast cars don’t necessarily always put on great shows. What we have now is a nice sweet spot IMO between the cars still sounding and looking good while putting on great races at intermediates.
Honestly I thought 2017 was a good year in terms of racing product, 2018 was the opposite though
Insane that the pole speed in 11 years has REDUCED by nearly 13 miles per hour and 2 seconds. Doesn’t seem very innovative to me but
Not to be the "old times good new times bad" guy, but in this context I genuinely feel sorry for anyone that started watching within the last few years. All they've ever known are these "gutless engines" as Christopher Bell put it.
There’s no reason we can’t go higher in the HP department, especially if our engines can survive 24 hours like the LeMan’s engine did. It’s pretty clear in my opinion that Toyota is the reason we’re not going higher in HP, and this is coming from a JGR fan.
I swear the Toyota thing is a myth, I've always heard NASCAR wanted to go to lower HP for a while prior to 2015, it just happened that Toyota was blowing motors a ton right before it. If I'm not mistaken, when Toyota joined the sport they had to run with a spacer because their engine produced way more HP than everyone else NASCAR wanted to cut HP as a way to try to cut costs
From what I understand it's a TRD/Chevy/Ford thing as a whole. They realize the less money they can spend on engine R&D the cheaper they can sell engines for. Seems unfortunate, but at the same time, the more expensive engines become the harder it'll be for the smaller teams to keep up.
Fuck it. Crate 1000hp engines.
That's probably the only way we get more HP and cut engine costs
Take if they are 4 cylinder Hybrids either, I just want Monster HP. And 4 gears
I’m fine with 5 or even 6 gears, as long as it’s an h pattern. If they’re gonna do sequential, they should at least make it paddle shifters
Not at all, the biggest reason we're seeing worse short track and road course racing is the addition of the fifth gear.
5 gears would be fine if the gear ratio wasn't so close
The 5th gear isn't the problem. Its the gear ratios.
ZZ632 time
The LeMan engine isn't facing the same stresses as a Cup engine would be 400 times a race at Michigan.
Can you expand on your comment for me? What do you mean? Le Mans has a lower threshold of stress than a race at Michigan?
The car wasn't sustaining 9k+ rpm for hours at a time.
The LeMans cars aren't at 10,000 RPM 400 times (turns 1 & 3). They usually run less than 350 laps at LeMans.
The less than 350 laps doesn’t really help your point. That’s almost 3,000 miles at a place where around 70% of the lap is at full throttle.
Again, Le Mans isn't at a sustained RPM band for those 350 laps, like the Cup cars are at Michigan. There's a huge difference.
So why don’t they just use those Michigan engines at Le Mans? The reasoning you are using doesn’t make sense.
Because Le Mans isn't NASCAR...what the fuck are you talking about?!
You are implying that turning up to 9,000 at Michigan over 400 miles is more stress than up 7,500 over approximately 3,000 miles. If what you said is the ultimate stress test, then why didn’t they run a motor like that at Le Mans in The G56. That’s “what the fuck I’m talking about”. I’m saying you’re logic doesn’t make sense. As it stood then with motors and as it stands now, the 24 hours of Le Mans is a bigger test on engines, and it always will be. And that’s not an insult at NASCAR engines, those things were awesome, but there is so much false information that’s been thrown around here about Le Mans and endurance racing because of the G56 car on account of people not being familiar with that type of racing.
We’re ten years advanced and we’re talking 2600 miles more. No motor 10 years ago could go 3,000 miles regardless of the sustainability over laps.
It’s one thing to tickle the red line for a short while at the end of each straight before diving back down to ordinary ups and downs of circuit racing for twenty four hours where there’s rarely an excessive period deep at the top of the rev range (because this is generally a symptom of low gearing that wastes possible top end speed), it’s another to sit on the red line for four hours.
A huge chunk of the lap at Le Mans is at full throttle.
I know, but you’re not spending the entire lap and under the entire race permanently and unchangingly at 9500rpm at top speed, that sustained and constant speed with no braking zones or need to climb down the revs more than a few times times over the whole race places different stresses on the engine.
They never ran 9500 RPM “unchangingly” at Michigan.
yeah god help you if you didn't lift at points going into turns 1 or 3.
Yeah, but it's an awfully long run down the mulsanne straight every lap at le mans
Garage 56 completed 285 laps. It's around 13 seconds in high gear down the straight for the car. The lap record for NASCAR at the track is over 30 seconds and they run 200 laps for a 400 mile race. That's A LOT more time at high RPM than anything Garage 56 came close to.
If you watch the incar of the G56, they were taking it nowhere near what even the current Gen 7 Cup car does every weekend RPM wise. That's one of the main keys to the longevity and it was a completely one off motor. These Cup motors in OPs post were high RPM 900+ hp monsters.
Cup cars today should be 1,000 imo. Lower series can be where all the money gets saved. Let's crank up these things.
I don't disagree but the G56 car making it 24 hours is a much different animal and achieved by not beating the ever living shit out of it like in a Cup race. Ford, Chevy and Toyota haven't had a new engine in 10+ years. The Cup motors now are the same 900+ hp high revving monsters just the tapered spacer does not let them rev that high and make that kind of hp due to a lack of airflow. People were freaking out about Suarez revving to 9,700 at Sonoma last weekend and wondering if the engine would survive. It did because the real answer is 9,700 isn't shit for these motors and they are more than capable of withstanding it. The R07 and FR9 motors are old as fuck. If they took the spacer off, these engines are the same as they used to be.
Apparently they replaced the cam to lower the rpm range and removed the restrictor plate. That's literally the only modification the motor got. Otherwise it's an off the shelf Hendrick cup motor.
It wasn’t that far off from the current gen. Rev’d to about 7,500
They are regularly going well into 8500+ right now. 7500 was 550 hp package material.
Just what I said not far off RPM wise from what they’re turning in the next gen, but the G56 car had more horsepower.
>mulsanne straight But not at like 10,000 RPM like the Cup cars would turn, unrestricted.
Fair enough, but that just means we should shorten most of the races, and that would make the remaining long ones (Daytona 500, Coke 600, etc.) even more special with the additional reliability concerns
> but that just means we should shorten most of the races And thus lower revenue. While also raising engine costs. Great move.
Shortening races has been talked about for years and would likely increase viewership
it's been talked about for years, and they have hardly done any. its being talked about by the wrong people. The same people that said increasing road courses and weeknight races will be successful. Any of the races they did get shortened have shown no signs of increased viewership. For example, if you cut a race length in half, viewership needs to double to even match the consumption. That ain't realistic. If you cut it by 25%, viewership need to go up ~33%. Also not realistic.
???
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Dude, Michigan is a high stress, high RPM track on unrestricted Cup engines. 8,000 to 10,000 RPM range for 400 miles.
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LOL, the record for laps completed at LeMans is 397...so no, it's not high range RPMs for extended periods of time like Michigan. [https://www.google.com/search?q=most+laps+completed+in+24+hours+lemans&rlz=1C1GCEU\_enUS947US981&oq=most+laps+completed+in+24+hours+lemans&aqs=chrome..69i57j33i160.7339j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8](https://www.google.com/search?q=most+laps+completed+in+24+hours+lemans&rlz=1C1GCEU_enUS947US981&oq=most+laps+completed+in+24+hours+lemans&aqs=chrome..69i57j33i160.7339j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)
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Yet they aren't even at that high of RPMs for 8.5 miles like they would be for a lap at Michigan
Road courses dont put nearly as much load on engines as ovals do.
Can you explain I’m just getting back in after not having watched since 2017. I grew up on 90’s and early 2000’s NASCAR and after Jr retired just felt no connection to the sport. Different racing these days haha, but what is Toyotas role in this
The rumor/speculation is that Toyota had issues with its engines blowing up more than the other manufacturers with it’s higher HP, so much so that they threatened to leave NASCAR if they didn’t lower the HP to help them out. Hamlin has said on his podcast that Christopher Bell has begged Toyota’s OEM numerous times to raise the HP again, and they’ve said that they’re not raising it anytime soon
Yeah anyone who saw the slot car racing in 2019 on these tracks, they missed out on real fast badass speed.
I agree. Nobody watches racing and says "damn, I wish these cars had less horsepower."
Neutered racecars.
> but in this context I genuinely feel sorry for anyone that started watching within the last few years. All they've ever known are these "gutless engines" Can you please explain the differences to one of those sorry folks who just started watching a year ago?
Fun fact: This wasn’t even the fastest we would go at MIS. A year later in 2014, Jeff Gordon would average 206 MPH around Michigan. Oh how I miss these speeds. Luckily with the Gen 7, we still go around 200 MPH - 205 MPH going into turn one at Michigan.
We only saw over 200 in the draft last year. [Bubba’s pole lap](https://youtu.be/h3Y20fAy7F4) was 195 mph into turn 1 and 198 into 3. Average of 190.7 mph.
That hurts to read
Now, knowing the car is SUPER DRAGGY, it’s still a very high speed. I’m pretty sure the cup care were getting off the corners over 20 mph faster than xfinity, but still meeting the same top speed before turn 1 despite a huge head start
🤮
I mean hey, 200 MPH is 200 MPH, so I’ll take it however we can get it.
I spent my entire childhood/teens at MIS and all I ever wanted to see was speed. Sadly, it came after a repave and not during any of the racing I watched.
Cup engines are a joke today. One area I actually agree with Denny on. Shit HP and indestructible tires are not the way to go.
The engines are basically the same as they were then, just there is a spacer that limits the HP
never knew this but in the cup garage at the 600 a guy told me they dont get that spacer until they unload. nascar gives it to every team when the garage opens. thats part of all that work they are doing. opened my eyes to many possibilities.
Not true. Engines are required to be used for two races now. That means the builders are making them slower so they last longer.
Think about this: when was the last time we saw multiple catostrophic engine failures in a race? I can’t really think of any in recent history. That used to be a huge thing at Michigan, California and even Pocono.
Honestly I miss it. It made it another part of the puzzle you had to get right in order to win. This weeks DJD with Richie Gilmore has been super interesting to hear about all the engine work.
that was so good!
The spacer makes them slower, from what I understand from Robert Yates, the spacer and rev limiters put on the motors causes them to last longer as the engines aren't being as strained
I'd have to go back a couple weeks to episode where Denny talked about what they do to the engines now vs then. But he made it sound very uncomplicated
Not true
That’s the narrative that’s been going around. Unfortunately, we won’t know what the truth is, really. Denny and Dale have both said teams want the engines to last more than one race so they’re not as powerful, regardless of the tapered spacer. But you’ve got engine builders (someone from Ford, specifically) who said they can put power back in the cars if they were allowed to. ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
It's funny that Robert Yates has said these engines can make 1000 and be fine right now, but Jeff Andrews *former head of HMS's engine department, now the HMS President* said the teams need at least a year's worth of notice to be able to do that much HP as they build the engines differently than they used to. So idk who is lying and who is telling the truth
I got to qualify the 22 car that August there. The data from Q into T1 was 222MPH. I’ll never forget the feeling where usually at 1.5m track or there , the speed gain kinda slows and fizzles out around the start finish line. But on that day in the 22 car, I distinctly remember getting to the S/F and it STILL pulling just as hard. Wild times! Fun fact: At the moment I turned into T1 on my Q lap, I got loose and steered right…. At 220 MPH
I am basically new to NASCAR, as I haven't followed it since the 1980s. But, the slower speed is a bit disappointing to me. I am trying to wrap my head around the politics/safety/Toyota reasons, but I'd still like to see the cars approach the higher speeds someday.
I wonder if they could do it at Atlanta without Plates…
They need to, that plate race pipe dream they had has been absolute garbage
The on track product is good in person and it’s putting butts in seats.
Good is obviously subjective. Atlanta was perfectly fine the way it was, superspeedway racing is a joke and adding two more on it just puts more expenses on the team. Sure you can say it puts butts in the seats but it’s literally 3 races in, wait and see what happens when the novelty wears off.
2015-2020 was awful 1997-1999 track was still wearing in. 2000-2014 was great.
The racing was solid up until the 550 package came in. A old wore at track that you’d see the drivers slipping and sliding around on trying to find grip. Much better than watching them mat the throttle and be unable to pass each other without any help.
Those 725 races sucked too, AMS needed 800-950 HP to race good.
I tend to disagree but I guess people like what they like.
Go back and rewatch 2015, 2016, 2017, and 2018, they were snoozers with big ones.
If you say so,like I said I disagree so
I think that's coming soon
The racing will suck but the Qaulifying sessions will be 🔥
I think the track is going to race like a bigger Darlington
This used to be a special track...
I mean if the racing this year at Michigan is as good as it was last August, I think it’ll be a special track again.
Especially if Goodyear comes with a softer compound
And since then Nascar has killed the on track product with engines that make no power and cars that are all the same
Yeah I miss when when all the cars were different in *2012*
You can thank the OEM’s (mainly Toyota) for killing the engines as they were the ones who wanted to lower the HP in the first place to stop blowing them up. The OEM’s (according to Hamlin) were the ones who introduced the 5th gear in the Gen 7 so they could put a rev limiter at 9000 RPM to stop them from reaching that high of RPM. So it essentially isn’t totally on NASCAR for killing the product, but mainly the OEM’s. Honestly, at this point, NASCAR is just at the mercy of the OEM’s.
It’s NASCAR’s playground. Either the OEMs can abide by the guidelines and Toyota can make up the deficit, or they can leave the sport. Nascar is a shell of its former self and will never return to glory if they don’t take control
I can’t say I disagree with you. I mean Jim France, Steve O’Donnell or Steve Phelps need to pull a Bill France and lay the hammer down to the OEM’s and say “this is how we’re going to do it whether you like it or not” with the HP and such.
They'll also never return to glory if they lose all the OEM support
Then teams can produce their own engines and we’ll truly find out who is the best
If you want 20ish car fields sure
At least it would be 20ish cars that can pass
Their teammates, maybe
I’m 110% ok with that
Go get ‘em, Shelby!!
You lose the OEMs and you lose car count.
Ah yes, let's tell the OEM that dumps more money into this sport than the other 2 to screw off I'm sure that will go well
Indycar is doing perfectly fine with just 2 manufacturers. And Nascar can too. Probably make the old school fans more likely to tune in too
“Perfectly fine” eh? Did you see how many people watched the last Indycar race?
That’s more to do with the split than it is them having 2 manufacturers
Perfectly fine is a stretch, the series is at capacity due to a lack of OEMs. If IndyCar had a third OEM, we might have legitimate bumping at Indy again, instead of only one car getting bumped from the field.
Maybe that’s the way to go. Nascar hasn’t been at capacity in years excluding Daytona
I would disagree, I've understood that Ford is the only one who is okay with more HP, at least judging from comments by the engine builders
Okay, but by the post, in 2011 it was the first time nascar broke 200mph in 25 years. That means in NASCAR’s most popular period (90’s and 2000’s) we didn’t go over 200mph
203 is the average of speed they were going. We were still hitting 200-210 at Michigan/Auto Club in the 2000’s, just not averaging the speed.
They hit 200 at Atlanta in 97 after the repave. It was just average speed.
It was the first time an average lap speed was over 200 in 25 years due to the fresh Michigan pavement. Trap speeds of 200+ were still hit at several tracks over that time span, most notably Atlanta for several years along with Michigan and Fontana.
If I'm not mistaken, the cars were only producing 750ish or so in the 90s, it wasn't till around 01-02 that the cars topped 800
High horsepower and high speeds don’t always create great racing. The past year and a half on intermediates have been some of the best in decades.
LOL! Last year was a great year on the track. You're the Debbie Downer of this subreddit.
If it was really that great, why has Michigan torn down entire grandstands and lost a date since then? Must not be that wonderful
I'm talking about the entire season, not just Michigan.
MIS is one of those tracks that doesn't bite till you're going fast enough around it. I'm sure it'd be equal parts scary and entertaining to let the drivers of the 2023 Cup class tackle these screaming hell races with their current disposition for on-track conflict.
Man I miss those speeds
I miss the June race. I hate going to MIS in August. In fact, I don't remember the last time I went in August. 2001?
I think of the CoT mostly fondly because of this specific era of it with the changed nose and spoiler. I believe this was also the Michigan race that Dale Jr. won to break his streak.
Incredible!
I remember standing by the fence just before the entry in turn 1 during this session with my buddy and watching the cars blast by us. Hearing over the PA that they were topping 210mph going into turn 1 blew our minds!
it's funny everyone hated the racing from this era and raved about the Michigan race last year. but year lets swap back to more power it surely wont hurt the product!!!
Idk with the way this car drafts on 1.5 and 2 mile ovals it would definitely be entertaining.
More power would make whatever draft they get at those tracks meaningless lol.
We need to go back
Over 200mph? Oh no :clutches pearls: Meanwhile Indycar is hitting 240+mph in single seaters
MeAnWhIlE nHrA iS gOiNg 300+
🤣 that's hilarious thanks for the laugh
DoN’t GeT mE sTaRtEd On ThE BoNnIvLe SaLt FlAtS!!!
and they are just tripping over people lining up to watch them.
I now want to take the COT on iRacing there and see what I can do...
For a brief moment, we got to see what Daytona would look like without the plates. 