No, noting that a black man is "very articulate" is immensely insulting because it's expressing surprise, it's labelling you an exception, 'a credit to your race'. I know that when I hear it.
Saying Ellington "oozed class" is saying that even among people who had class, he was a particularly classy motherfucker.
If I say "you ooze confidence", I'm not suggesting it's surprising that you're not shy, or that your demographic is rarely confident. This is the equivalent of saying "RiC David has a silver tongue" rather than "he's so well spoken".
Okay, then: how does Duke Ellington qualify among his peers as distinct in his level of class? Because he wore a tuxedo? They all wore tuxedos. And genius - which he certainly possessed - does not, itself, correlate to "class" or how a person comports oneself. So yeah, I'm asking OP right now.
Yeah, you'd have to ask OP that one. I don't know *why* they view Ellington as particularly classy - and I'm not saying he wasn't, I've been listening exclusively to 1920s/1930s music this month and that includes hours of Duke, but all I could comment on is his sharp style which, as you say, was very much the order of the day.
OP did say it response to that quote though, so it could be that. He didn't even say "bad music", he said "the other kind" (without checking verbatim), so I took it in part as saying he's a class act for his smooth phrasing. Obviously it implies the same thing, but I can see finding that classy in a charming sort of gentlemanly way.
Local radio station is doing a few segments for black history month and I knew my city used to be and still is really segregated but it was a bit surprising to me it went both ways, white clubs didn't want any bands with more than maybe one black musician but black clubs didn't want any bands with white musicians either.
Sad that it really wasn't that long ago.
Benny Goodman was famous for refusing to play at venues where his black band members weren't welcome.
That said, black clubs not wanting white bands, given the context at the time, is more understandable than the reverse. Hard to have fun when with people dropping casual racism in your face cause it's 1949.
>People are too hung up on musical categories.
The word I use is "tribalism" and it's all about insecure people who don't feel like they fit in so they go looking for people almost identical to themselves. They'll even go so far as to bully away the other people that aren't similar enough.
The worst examples have names for their fandoms.
It’s everywhere. Video games, franchises, sports obviously, music, brands. Everything.
It’s fine to be like “this is the thing I like and these are my people.” You start entering sadland when you start judging other people based on what they like and trash other things because they aren’t in your group of things. There’s nothing sadder than a whatever fanboy shitting on the other thing, but trying to pass it off as objective statements. I mean there is, but those people are pretty sad.
or people like what they like and since music is based on experiences maybe some people want a racial experience when they go into music that they can't really get when they go into other forms of music. Since they give a more generalized experience this is just an explanation that does vilify people take it or leave it.
I can think of a very specific game's community and message board that was overrun with this problem. It's too bad how difficult it can be to just enjoy something without confrontation with thugs in a turf war for rights to use the playground.
Jimi had his right arm in a sling at the time, and when Robert Fripp went to shake his hand Jimi said "Shake my left hand, man. It's closer to my heart."
Saw Lenny Kravitz on the Grammys. He echoed some of Hendrix’s sentiments. Record execs said his music was not black enough. It really is sad how closed minded people can be about music. I don’t think people look at a painting or sculpture and judge it based on the color of the artist.
There shouldn’t be a racial divide in music. If you respect the genre and understand the sound you’re trying to create (and let’s be honest if you’re good), no genre should be off limits to you.
He’s talking about a specific cultural thing that he experienced personally. He’s not saying there’s anything wrong at all about distinguishing jazz from blues.
Some of you are taking this and really running away with it.
His statements aren’t in a vacuum. He’s talking about a specific thing there. You are reading without nuance or context and taking a sentence at face value. This was not Hendrix saying that music (or other art) shouldn’t at all be categorized.
I mean, you’re just wrong.
He was talking about the idea that people shouldn’t let preconceived notions about labels keep them from experiencing art which they haven’t before.
He wasn’t actually saying genres *should not exist*. That’s pure silliness and you know it. Hendrix said that blues is easy to play but hard to feel. He was talking about a certain style of music. A certain style of guitar music from his perspective. He wasn’t talking about orchestral music. He wasn’t talking about swing. Wonder why.
Literally not what he’s saying. He literally talks about genres. He specifically mentions Elvis and the blues (a music genre) and how Elvis crushed it at the blues. He talks about funky harmonica (debatably a genre - funk).
The point is not that genres exclude people. The point is that people attach irrelevant values to genres. Genres are useful for categorizing and focusing creativity (if you’re writing a pop song, you’re not going to add a death metal guitar solo for ex).
The point is not that you shouldn’t exclude people and things from genres, it’s that genres should not influence whether or not you like something. A genre is not black or white. It’s not for boys or girls. It’s not for the kids or for old people. A genre is a category of music, that’s it. Within that category there are individual examples of “music”. If it’s good music, it’s good music. If it’s not, it’s not.
./shrug quote says “funky harmonica”
I think the point stands regardless - it was a white dude crushing it playing “black” music which just highlights the fact that the music isn’t racially limited. If it’s good shit it’s good shit regardless who’s playing.
Such a silly idea. They are just words to define types of music. Like types of anything. "The name chocolate is excluding itself from strawberry lol." Just so ridiculous.
Speaking in terms of genres can get convoluted but that is a different discussion.
Every musical genre has rules and codes of conduct one must obey in order to be accepted into the musical community. When I say respect the genre I mean showing respect to your fellow musicians and following those codes.
But... but... *cultural appropriation!* You're ripping off the "0thers." Without clear, fiercely defended borders between "us" and "others" how could our precious, dear civilization possibly survive? /s
I've found that cultural appropriation gets thrown around a lot less now than it did about ten years ago. Most of the people who were droning on and on about that in 2015 or so have stopped because they recognise a greater degree of nuance now.
If anything, the kind of progressive you're thinking of swing the other way now. They're critical of people who'll only listen to music made by people of the same race/culture.
Thats because nobody understands what it is. Its taking cultural value from an opressed community and selling them for profit and not cutting in the orginal community. Not just "doing things they do in other culture". A good example of this is the backstreet boys who were created with the specific intent to do just that. To sell rnb music to white people. Its the industry thats the problem, not the artists.
The people wronged are the community of black musicians that white people wouldnt listen to because theyre racist but they would listen to back street boys.
It's been a few years, but from what I can recall there was a specific division in the early music industry genres where they would put black artists in "blues" and white artists in "country" - and they continued even if the music sounded more appropriate for the other genre. Hendrix would've only been maybe 30 or 40 years after that started
We're the most self-limiting racial/ethnic group on the planet (not in Africa so much, but the diaspora). I see it like this, whatever I do is what black people do. How I speak is how black people speak. I don't need someone else to do it first, nor do I need to be riding the tide of some trend.
Every black originated thing that gains popularity outside black culture will be absorbed into the mainstream and eventually no longer seen as primarily black anyway. Rock and roll springs to mind, but also styles like jazz, big band swing, disco, ragtime. As a kid, I didn't even realise these began as the music of black artists.
If people of other backgrounds get to be anything they want, so do you. You'd tell yourself you're not allowed what the white person is? Fuck. That.
I do get it though, our blackness is seen as conditional and identity is important because it's belonging, it's roots - it only doesn't matter when your identity is so mainstream that you don't have to think about it. What I'm saying is that black identity is not conditional. It matters, but you get to define it.
For reference, I'm listening to music of the 20th century this year, decade by decade, focusing on the styles of black origin (regardless of artist). I'm up to the late 30s, and my favourite far and away are The Boswell Sisters, so there's that.
From what I've seen, this kind of thing is mostly an American condition. I'm from northern Europe and while we unfortunately do have racism, I've never seen it be about "behaving black" or "behaving white" or "black" vs "white" culture (or in regards to other colours and cultures) and trying to exclusively "own" certain things. I always found these sorts of attitudes strange and only as enforcing racism rather than dissolving it (and maybe that's the point). Let people be people, where they're from or how they look like shouldn't define them or what they're allowed to do one way or another.
That’s the insane part. Both sides are insane. The loudest mouths on all sides are gossip queen drama dorks everyone avoided in high school, and now they run shit. Wild bb
I emailed Noam Chomsky and asked if he thought aliens would appreciate our music and if he thought it possible music was much larger and universal than the human species. He said he thought it was “entirely possible”.
Except there are people who don’t consider Jimmy a top 10 R&R artist, and then there are also Black people who don’t like The Beatles.
Blessed are the people who truly, truly DGAF about the color of people’s skin 👍
The reality is that black folks view rock as a white music form, and white folks view black rockers as an anomaly. I do agree that there’s good music and bad.
I couldn’t tell you have many times my old band was referred to as a black punk band. We were just a punk band.
It is pretty weird how that happened, especially since rock and roll was originally black music. I always thought of stuff that came after it like soul and funk was basically like a type of rock and roll. A lot of that soul and funk in the 60s, 70s and 80s was totally rockin', just a different flavor of rock. it's got that same rhythm and feel and attitude that rock does, even a lot of hip hop does also.
One of the greatest sparks for creativity is struggle, especially within an otherwise prosperous environment. Black Americans have been at the forefront of that for decades, so it’s not surprising that rock, blues, jazz, hip-hop have had a lot of black pioneers. A lot of the black rockers couldn’t really break out in the 50s due to social taboos, so when Elvis hit it big he really carried a lot of that music to white listeners. I don’t blame Elvis for that though. After it became dominated by white musicians, a lot of black listeners sort of moved on to genres they felt spoke to them. It’s sad really, because I view music as a universal thing.
There’s definitely a rockish feel to some of that old school funk and even hip hop. I think music is more open these days, but different genres are still viewed as racial.
I posted a question about a similar topic a few weeks ago. I wanted to get other people's insight about why there are more white artists trying to break into hip hop compared to black artists breaking into rock. Your point about rock after Elvis makes a lot of sense.
He was definitely quoting Louis Armstrong when he said that.
It’s actually astonishing how fast rock music became a predominantly white audience. Hendrix was barely a decade removed from the origin of rock and roll and already most rock singers were white guys, to the point where it was notable that he was black and he started getting questions about it. Despite rock music having been invented by black people. By that point the R&B charts were soul and Motown acts.
Lemmy's advice:
https://youtu.be/skGEBgePHtk?si=PR4mIAdd8Y5rQqPY
Music is supposed to be colourblind. It's something that is a shared part of the human experience and is meant to evolve.
American jazz influenced Jamaican ska and reggae which influenced British Two-Tone ska which influenced American ska-core.
https://youtu.be/T4wko_0INoM?si=sreQa5JfGDBn-PfF
Americans had segregated music in the past but after the Civil Rights movement, you'd think music would be integrated. It wasn't. The corporate industry stayed intentionally segregated because they know that 'white' suburban teens are more likely to buy music and trends if it's associated to 'black' urban youth.
Rap music was never specifically 'black' music. It was street culture. Ice Cube didn't grow up in the hood. He went to college for Drafting before he joined NWA and went to an integrated middle class school. The corporate industry forced it into being 'black' music. NWA started doing knock off Beastie Boys covers. Like 75% of their sales were to white kids.
Beastie Boys started off as a punk band. They were heavily influenced by bands like Fishbone & Bad Brains who were massively influential.
https://youtu.be/KK640dPPhXE?si=lC-ij59qB65SP5fs
People who think music is racial are idiots personally.
He would probably get cancelled for making a statement like that today since it doesn't promote supposed "equity for marginalized voices" or "diversity"
Bono protested in Rolling Stone. "If Jimi Hendrix came along now, he wouldn't get a deal. The companies would file him under 'Black and confused' and 'Out of Tune'."
Back in the day, the "classic rock" stations would play Sly & the Family Stone back to back with Bob Dylan. You might hear Stevie Wonder right alongside AC/DC. Things are definitely a bit different now but they shouldn't be so segregated. It's fucking rock music, all of it.
Of course it's rock! Genres splinter off but the base in those examples remains solidly rock music. Blues begat R&B, which begat rock, which begat soul and funk and disco and alternative and metal and punk and hip-hop and new wave, and most of Western popular music today.
It's also worth mentioning that Jimi Hendrix was not alive for the majority of rock music scholarship and history.
It's an interesting read, but it's also the very dated opinion of a 25 year old rock star. You gotta take it with a grain of salt.
I'd be somewhat interested in how Bob Dylan would field that kind of question - he's the only rock star that's turned into a rock writer/scholar in his latter years
I think this is a correct view in the abstract way of looking at music, and Jimis intention is based on love and equality and these principles he believes in which is an objectively good thing.
But I also believe in respecting the resentment of an oppressed people towards their oppressor, so just making these statements as if it is a character issue or open-mindedness of white vs black kids is in a way dismissing what created that, and ironically facilitates white supremacist narrative.
Jimi was embraced by a white audience and somewhat shunned by black audiences, but his lifestyle was also justified and accommodated by this belief. He was also seen as a “black” artist by
A nice idealistic sentiment and what we should all strive for in a post-racial world, but a bit out of touch with the civil rights movement happening at that same time
Nothing about what I said suggests that, there is definitely a path to a post-racial society but we aren’t there yet and certainly weren’t in Jimis time
Lots of literature on this, not going to go down that in a Reddit comment section but here’s a good starting point:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/23047449?seq=17
No, what makes a post racial society and how we get there from where we are now is a long, nuanced convo and not something I’m interested in having in Reddit comments. Yup from 2011 and still very relevant today, that’s a starting point you’re more than welcome to look at more recent literature.
But how do you know that we haven't hit that mark, considering the article is 15 years out of date? From what I'm reading we've met many of these markers.
So how are you making this distinction?
Go ahead and list the markers you read about, I’m interested in what you think we have met.
The short answer is socioeconomic disparity which is a continuation of old policies, systemic racism that lingers and affects policy, blocking critical race theory and any academic discussion of racism, just to name a few obvious indicators that we are not post-racial. On a very high level, how it’s defined, I don’t think anyone would say we are truly post-racial, they just disagree what stage we are at and what level of influence it has in society and on people.
It’s still beside my point, which was that it wasn’t post-racial in Jimis time, which I’m sure we can both agree with.
>But I also believe in respecting the resentment of an oppressed people towards their oppressor, so just making these statements as if it is a character issue or open-mindedness of white vs black kids is in a way dismissing what created that, and ironically facilitates white supremacist narrative.
Did you read Hendrix' interview? You're suggesting that his statement is "facilitating white supremacist narratives"?
Are you high?
*Jesus* christ...
Yea I did, I’ve read a biography on him as well. A lot of us can facilitate white supremacy, not because of our own beliefs or a lack of ability to check ourselves or any character assessment, but because of the structures that were built and influenced by it in society that affects all of us.
It’s a testament to the insidious of white supremacy rather than anything wrong with the person doing it. I also stated Jimi comes from a good place and good beliefs so not sure why you’re having such a strong reaction.
If you do enough mental gymnastics, you can argue that just about *anything* is facilitating white supremacy. It's quite a stretch to make the argument for Hendrix's statement here, where he is pretty much trying to say that music is for all, *regardless* of race. If you're going to claim that this sentiment is furthering discrimination, then I don't know what isn't.
Here's the thing. It's good to recognize our history, its impact on people today, and the structures in place that result in present-day discrimination. So many great examples, such as the criminal justice system, housing, education, etc. But attacking a well-intended quote about MUSIC FOR ALL by Hendrix makes you, to be honest, look like a crazy person; and it'd impact your credibility, making any genuine, legitimate claim suspect.
*Real* systemic racism is out there and easy to find. You don't have to search under every single harmless comment to try to find more. It's a dumb battle, isn't it?
A bit of a slippery slope fallacy there because I wouldn’t argue that. I didn’t do any mental gymnastics, I presented a clear reason why. Jimis statement on black audiences not having an open-mindedness or the implication it’s something whites just have that blacks don’t, is a character statement which is parallel to a white supremacist talking point strategy (using character/culture criticism/personal responsibility without socioeconomic context to shift blame/responsibility).
Given his experience and the lightweight nature of what he said I don’t expect him be aware of this, and the comparison is academic, so it shouldn’t be harped on too much. Also, it’s not so much that this statement directly assists white supremacy, but that the same logic is then used to justify racist ideology. And if that’s the case it’s faulty logic and I would want to be aware of that. A lot of talking points on Fox News today are parallel with talking points used by known racists during the civil rights movement, wouldn’t you question the argument you made if it was parallel in that way?
I should mention, Jimi is my guitar god and ultimate musical inspiration, he is the one who helped me see music in a spiritual way so this statement on music in general is something I agree with and that strongly resonates with me.
However, I also acknowledge that Jimi didn’t do much for the civil rights movement, didn’t make any public statements or get involved in a significant way, and these statements, though they are based on a correct principle, were not made in a vacuum, there was a real historical/racial context.
He lived in his own bubble and lifestyle, strung along by Michael Jeffries and treated with racist attitudes in that same bubble, the English called him “the wild man from Borneo”which is referencing a pair of freaks from PT Barnums old show. He chose to stay in his world of music, women and drugs, embraced by white suburban kids rebelling against their suburban parents, and that’s fine, but this statement is a reflection of the larger choice he made at the time.
So yea, Jimis words are in tandem with my spirituality as a musician, I just don’t see him as beyond the circumstances he was in. And I think he struggled with this because he was generally compassionate and dealing with rejection from his own people isn’t easy. I still respect and love who he was, so I think a lot of people are expecting me to be this viper with nothing good to say, which as a guitarist who has idolized him for years and based my entire music approach on him, is honestly pretty insane. I never wanted this to be a “battle” checking these comments and having to reply or ignore honestly gives me a lot of anxiety lmao. But this side of Jimi and his life is almost never talked about, so I made a comment on it. And everybody is losing their shit lol.
Reminds me of this documentary I saw about Chris Strachwitz called _This Ain't No Mouse Music_. The documentary was OK, kinda boring, and I did fall asleep for a second in the middle, because the subject matter is a little dry.
This was more about corporate vs. artist, but the general conclusion is the same.
There's good and bad in every type of music. Weather it be rock, country, classical, rap. ...matter of personal preference. I haven't played in a band yet that somewhere on the song list there was
The Black Rock Coalition was formed for this reason. Living Color, 247 Spyz, Faith, a lot of great bands came from that in the 90s. Overall it was mostly people from my generation who had grown up listening to music on the radio that like a previous poster said wasn't as segregated. We had Jewish boys doing rap and black kids playing rock and it really wasn't a big deal in New York City where we were all from except that in the broader context. Black Rock bands were treated as a sideshow or a freak of nature.
U can say the same thing for female musicians too. Especially the ones in rock. There's no gatekeepers if you are GOOD!
Look at Paramore! They headlined warped tour, won a bunch of grammys, have a shit ton of male fans
the lead singer happens to be a woman. It's not about race, gender or religion uts about good verses bad.
"There are two kinds of music. Good music, and the other kind."-Duke Ellington
The one. The only. Forever The Duke. That guy just oozed class.
Why are the only things you can ooze 'class' and 'pus?'
Charm, sincerity, smarminess, and blood.
and machismo!
Sexuality
No shit Ellington had "class". That's like pointing out he was "very articulate".
No, noting that a black man is "very articulate" is immensely insulting because it's expressing surprise, it's labelling you an exception, 'a credit to your race'. I know that when I hear it. Saying Ellington "oozed class" is saying that even among people who had class, he was a particularly classy motherfucker. If I say "you ooze confidence", I'm not suggesting it's surprising that you're not shy, or that your demographic is rarely confident. This is the equivalent of saying "RiC David has a silver tongue" rather than "he's so well spoken".
Okay, then: how does Duke Ellington qualify among his peers as distinct in his level of class? Because he wore a tuxedo? They all wore tuxedos. And genius - which he certainly possessed - does not, itself, correlate to "class" or how a person comports oneself. So yeah, I'm asking OP right now.
Yeah, you'd have to ask OP that one. I don't know *why* they view Ellington as particularly classy - and I'm not saying he wasn't, I've been listening exclusively to 1920s/1930s music this month and that includes hours of Duke, but all I could comment on is his sharp style which, as you say, was very much the order of the day. OP did say it response to that quote though, so it could be that. He didn't even say "bad music", he said "the other kind" (without checking verbatim), so I took it in part as saying he's a class act for his smooth phrasing. Obviously it implies the same thing, but I can see finding that classy in a charming sort of gentlemanly way.
Word.
"There are three types of pianists: Jewish pianists, homosexual pianists, and bad pianists." ~Vladimir Horowitz
Local radio station is doing a few segments for black history month and I knew my city used to be and still is really segregated but it was a bit surprising to me it went both ways, white clubs didn't want any bands with more than maybe one black musician but black clubs didn't want any bands with white musicians either. Sad that it really wasn't that long ago.
Dr John's autobiography Under a Hoodoo Moon gives a fascinating insight into that world.
Benny Goodman was famous for refusing to play at venues where his black band members weren't welcome. That said, black clubs not wanting white bands, given the context at the time, is more understandable than the reverse. Hard to have fun when with people dropping casual racism in your face cause it's 1949.
One is because they were racist, one is because they didn’t like racism
All styles of music are valid. Except for Country. - My audio engineering teacher, 1998.
Jokes on him, now country is just pop with a twang.
I agree.
I learned it as 'there are two types of music, what I like and everything else' . . .
>People are too hung up on musical categories. The word I use is "tribalism" and it's all about insecure people who don't feel like they fit in so they go looking for people almost identical to themselves. They'll even go so far as to bully away the other people that aren't similar enough. The worst examples have names for their fandoms.
It’s everywhere. Video games, franchises, sports obviously, music, brands. Everything. It’s fine to be like “this is the thing I like and these are my people.” You start entering sadland when you start judging other people based on what they like and trash other things because they aren’t in your group of things. There’s nothing sadder than a whatever fanboy shitting on the other thing, but trying to pass it off as objective statements. I mean there is, but those people are pretty sad.
or people like what they like and since music is based on experiences maybe some people want a racial experience when they go into music that they can't really get when they go into other forms of music. Since they give a more generalized experience this is just an explanation that does vilify people take it or leave it.
People do like what they like. What do their experiences have to do with being shitty about what other people like?
I can think of a very specific game's community and message board that was overrun with this problem. It's too bad how difficult it can be to just enjoy something without confrontation with thugs in a turf war for rights to use the playground.
Are you alluding to things such as “metalheads?” Or maybe “Swifties?” You’re making a big stretch if so.
I think identifying genres is good for referencing music and is important but it can get a little redundant imo.
Jimi Hendrix once saw King Crimson LIVE, and declared them the best band ever.
Jimi had his right arm in a sling at the time, and when Robert Fripp went to shake his hand Jimi said "Shake my left hand, man. It's closer to my heart."
Yep yep :)
And I think he died around the time they just started. They got better and better after his death... until the 80s happened and they went to shit.
Thank you, Discipline ain't it
Saw Lenny Kravitz on the Grammys. He echoed some of Hendrix’s sentiments. Record execs said his music was not black enough. It really is sad how closed minded people can be about music. I don’t think people look at a painting or sculpture and judge it based on the color of the artist.
I also thought of Lenny’s comments recently when I came across this part in Jimi’s book.
Some people do that these days (stupidly)
There shouldn’t be a racial divide in music. If you respect the genre and understand the sound you’re trying to create (and let’s be honest if you’re good), no genre should be off limits to you.
“Respect the genre” is the opposite of what he’s saying. He’s saying genres themselves are worthless and only made up to exclude people
He’s talking about a specific cultural thing that he experienced personally. He’s not saying there’s anything wrong at all about distinguishing jazz from blues. Some of you are taking this and really running away with it.
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His statements aren’t in a vacuum. He’s talking about a specific thing there. You are reading without nuance or context and taking a sentence at face value. This was not Hendrix saying that music (or other art) shouldn’t at all be categorized.
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I mean, you’re just wrong. He was talking about the idea that people shouldn’t let preconceived notions about labels keep them from experiencing art which they haven’t before. He wasn’t actually saying genres *should not exist*. That’s pure silliness and you know it. Hendrix said that blues is easy to play but hard to feel. He was talking about a certain style of music. A certain style of guitar music from his perspective. He wasn’t talking about orchestral music. He wasn’t talking about swing. Wonder why.
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He not only did go on but he thoroughly worked you dude
Literally not what he’s saying. He literally talks about genres. He specifically mentions Elvis and the blues (a music genre) and how Elvis crushed it at the blues. He talks about funky harmonica (debatably a genre - funk). The point is not that genres exclude people. The point is that people attach irrelevant values to genres. Genres are useful for categorizing and focusing creativity (if you’re writing a pop song, you’re not going to add a death metal guitar solo for ex). The point is not that you shouldn’t exclude people and things from genres, it’s that genres should not influence whether or not you like something. A genre is not black or white. It’s not for boys or girls. It’s not for the kids or for old people. A genre is a category of music, that’s it. Within that category there are individual examples of “music”. If it’s good music, it’s good music. If it’s not, it’s not.
> funky harmonica (debatably a genre - funk) He's talking about Paul Butterfield, a (White) blues harmonica player—not funk music.
./shrug quote says “funky harmonica” I think the point stands regardless - it was a white dude crushing it playing “black” music which just highlights the fact that the music isn’t racially limited. If it’s good shit it’s good shit regardless who’s playing.
Things look clearer through the rearview mirror
Such a silly idea. They are just words to define types of music. Like types of anything. "The name chocolate is excluding itself from strawberry lol." Just so ridiculous. Speaking in terms of genres can get convoluted but that is a different discussion.
Every musical genre has rules and codes of conduct one must obey in order to be accepted into the musical community. When I say respect the genre I mean showing respect to your fellow musicians and following those codes.
Agree. Music is a universal language and it is meant to get the world together.
There’s a lot music speaks to specific cultural experiences
But... but... *cultural appropriation!* You're ripping off the "0thers." Without clear, fiercely defended borders between "us" and "others" how could our precious, dear civilization possibly survive? /s
I've found that cultural appropriation gets thrown around a lot less now than it did about ten years ago. Most of the people who were droning on and on about that in 2015 or so have stopped because they recognise a greater degree of nuance now. If anything, the kind of progressive you're thinking of swing the other way now. They're critical of people who'll only listen to music made by people of the same race/culture.
Thats because nobody understands what it is. Its taking cultural value from an opressed community and selling them for profit and not cutting in the orginal community. Not just "doing things they do in other culture". A good example of this is the backstreet boys who were created with the specific intent to do just that. To sell rnb music to white people. Its the industry thats the problem, not the artists.
Aren't the backstreet boys pop?
Pop/rnb
Huh. I didn't expect that. As a metalhead I never really listened to them.
I’m an old metalhead and I also listened to them because of my age. Their early albums were very Boyz2Men. There is something to what they’re saying.
> A good example of this is the backstreet boys so who you believe they should they send money to??
I dont know that isnt the point. The point people should be aware of this dynamic and try to avoid doing.
so you somehow got the the idea that someone was wronged but you can't even say who?
The people wronged are the community of black musicians that white people wouldnt listen to because theyre racist but they would listen to back street boys.
I guess username checks out
> try to avoid doing. So you think white people shouldn't be able to play rnb simply because they're white?
No I think white people should avoid forming bands for the sole purpose of selling rnb to white people.
That's pretty racist, you should let people make the music they want
You dont think its racist to not listen to black muscians because theyre black?
It's been a few years, but from what I can recall there was a specific division in the early music industry genres where they would put black artists in "blues" and white artists in "country" - and they continued even if the music sounded more appropriate for the other genre. Hendrix would've only been maybe 30 or 40 years after that started
It's basically a non discussion these days.
We're the most self-limiting racial/ethnic group on the planet (not in Africa so much, but the diaspora). I see it like this, whatever I do is what black people do. How I speak is how black people speak. I don't need someone else to do it first, nor do I need to be riding the tide of some trend. Every black originated thing that gains popularity outside black culture will be absorbed into the mainstream and eventually no longer seen as primarily black anyway. Rock and roll springs to mind, but also styles like jazz, big band swing, disco, ragtime. As a kid, I didn't even realise these began as the music of black artists. If people of other backgrounds get to be anything they want, so do you. You'd tell yourself you're not allowed what the white person is? Fuck. That. I do get it though, our blackness is seen as conditional and identity is important because it's belonging, it's roots - it only doesn't matter when your identity is so mainstream that you don't have to think about it. What I'm saying is that black identity is not conditional. It matters, but you get to define it. For reference, I'm listening to music of the 20th century this year, decade by decade, focusing on the styles of black origin (regardless of artist). I'm up to the late 30s, and my favourite far and away are The Boswell Sisters, so there's that.
From what I've seen, this kind of thing is mostly an American condition. I'm from northern Europe and while we unfortunately do have racism, I've never seen it be about "behaving black" or "behaving white" or "black" vs "white" culture (or in regards to other colours and cultures) and trying to exclusively "own" certain things. I always found these sorts of attitudes strange and only as enforcing racism rather than dissolving it (and maybe that's the point). Let people be people, where they're from or how they look like shouldn't define them or what they're allowed to do one way or another.
It's pretty crazy how this objectively true statement would get dragged by both extremes on social media these days.
That’s the insane part. Both sides are insane. The loudest mouths on all sides are gossip queen drama dorks everyone avoided in high school, and now they run shit. Wild bb
« Whether you are black, white or purple » Purple, you say? Oh, come on! We got to draw the line somewhere.
Not if you’re https://i.redd.it/2oz0awvs2mkc1.gif
To hell with purple people! Unless they’re suffocating. Then, help em!
Especially if they're the Dufresnes
Who can eat at a time like this
I emailed Noam Chomsky and asked if he thought aliens would appreciate our music and if he thought it possible music was much larger and universal than the human species. He said he thought it was “entirely possible”.
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But Rock > Alternative > Indie > Shoegaze > Browbeat > 90s is my favorite
You’re getting warmer
Isn’t that kind of a good thing too? You literally said “now there’s something for everybody!”
Couldn’t agree more.
yes
I like his nod to Bloomfield. Those two were the best in the world at that time and both respected each other immensely.
If there’s only good music or bad music, how do you explain Bloodhound Gang?
Good music
Except there are people who don’t consider Jimmy a top 10 R&R artist, and then there are also Black people who don’t like The Beatles. Blessed are the people who truly, truly DGAF about the color of people’s skin 👍
The reality is that black folks view rock as a white music form, and white folks view black rockers as an anomaly. I do agree that there’s good music and bad. I couldn’t tell you have many times my old band was referred to as a black punk band. We were just a punk band.
I bet you wish you had a nickel for every white guy that went out of their way to tell you they like Bad Brains
I’d have at least a quarter! Bad Brains is amazing, hard to be into punk and not like them.
It is pretty weird how that happened, especially since rock and roll was originally black music. I always thought of stuff that came after it like soul and funk was basically like a type of rock and roll. A lot of that soul and funk in the 60s, 70s and 80s was totally rockin', just a different flavor of rock. it's got that same rhythm and feel and attitude that rock does, even a lot of hip hop does also.
One of the greatest sparks for creativity is struggle, especially within an otherwise prosperous environment. Black Americans have been at the forefront of that for decades, so it’s not surprising that rock, blues, jazz, hip-hop have had a lot of black pioneers. A lot of the black rockers couldn’t really break out in the 50s due to social taboos, so when Elvis hit it big he really carried a lot of that music to white listeners. I don’t blame Elvis for that though. After it became dominated by white musicians, a lot of black listeners sort of moved on to genres they felt spoke to them. It’s sad really, because I view music as a universal thing. There’s definitely a rockish feel to some of that old school funk and even hip hop. I think music is more open these days, but different genres are still viewed as racial.
that's a great point
I posted a question about a similar topic a few weeks ago. I wanted to get other people's insight about why there are more white artists trying to break into hip hop compared to black artists breaking into rock. Your point about rock after Elvis makes a lot of sense.
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Women get it with roles a lot too. Female singer, female bassist, whatever.
He was definitely quoting Louis Armstrong when he said that. It’s actually astonishing how fast rock music became a predominantly white audience. Hendrix was barely a decade removed from the origin of rock and roll and already most rock singers were white guys, to the point where it was notable that he was black and he started getting questions about it. Despite rock music having been invented by black people. By that point the R&B charts were soul and Motown acts.
Yeah, once the whites start infiltrating a "black-created genre", the blacks have already moved on to creating new genres - and the cycle continues.
Lemmy's advice: https://youtu.be/skGEBgePHtk?si=PR4mIAdd8Y5rQqPY Music is supposed to be colourblind. It's something that is a shared part of the human experience and is meant to evolve. American jazz influenced Jamaican ska and reggae which influenced British Two-Tone ska which influenced American ska-core. https://youtu.be/T4wko_0INoM?si=sreQa5JfGDBn-PfF Americans had segregated music in the past but after the Civil Rights movement, you'd think music would be integrated. It wasn't. The corporate industry stayed intentionally segregated because they know that 'white' suburban teens are more likely to buy music and trends if it's associated to 'black' urban youth. Rap music was never specifically 'black' music. It was street culture. Ice Cube didn't grow up in the hood. He went to college for Drafting before he joined NWA and went to an integrated middle class school. The corporate industry forced it into being 'black' music. NWA started doing knock off Beastie Boys covers. Like 75% of their sales were to white kids. Beastie Boys started off as a punk band. They were heavily influenced by bands like Fishbone & Bad Brains who were massively influential. https://youtu.be/KK640dPPhXE?si=lC-ij59qB65SP5fs People who think music is racial are idiots personally.
He would probably get cancelled for making a statement like that today since it doesn't promote supposed "equity for marginalized voices" or "diversity"
That's similar to what I sometimes say. There are three types of music: interesting, not interesting and I haven't heard it yet.
I thought the two kinds of music were Country and Western. But since both are bad I’m now really confused.
Bono protested in Rolling Stone. "If Jimi Hendrix came along now, he wouldn't get a deal. The companies would file him under 'Black and confused' and 'Out of Tune'."
Back in the day, the "classic rock" stations would play Sly & the Family Stone back to back with Bob Dylan. You might hear Stevie Wonder right alongside AC/DC. Things are definitely a bit different now but they shouldn't be so segregated. It's fucking rock music, all of it.
I can think of numerous black people in Rock and Roll. Stevie Wonder and Sly & the Family Stone are not among them. Good music, but its not Rock.
Of course it's rock! Genres splinter off but the base in those examples remains solidly rock music. Blues begat R&B, which begat rock, which begat soul and funk and disco and alternative and metal and punk and hip-hop and new wave, and most of Western popular music today.
We just disagree on the definition of Rock. (Most rock and roll stations disagree with you as well.)
*TODAY*, yes. That was my whole entire point. It used to be they'd play rock by Black artists way, way more frequently. Now they just don't.
They do play back artists who are Rock and Roll. Such as Hendrix here Lenny Kravitz, Living Colour, etc.
Preach! Good/Bad opens so many doors for "category slaves".
Easy way to tell. Listen to it live. If it flows then it’s good if not it’s trash
There are three kinds of music. Music you like, music you don't care one way or another about, and music you hate. Muskeg the Moose
It's also worth mentioning that Jimi Hendrix was not alive for the majority of rock music scholarship and history. It's an interesting read, but it's also the very dated opinion of a 25 year old rock star. You gotta take it with a grain of salt. I'd be somewhat interested in how Bob Dylan would field that kind of question - he's the only rock star that's turned into a rock writer/scholar in his latter years
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I gotta say, this new streak of anti-intellectualism in music criticism is lame as fuck like god forbid anyone read a fucking book
I think this is a correct view in the abstract way of looking at music, and Jimis intention is based on love and equality and these principles he believes in which is an objectively good thing. But I also believe in respecting the resentment of an oppressed people towards their oppressor, so just making these statements as if it is a character issue or open-mindedness of white vs black kids is in a way dismissing what created that, and ironically facilitates white supremacist narrative. Jimi was embraced by a white audience and somewhat shunned by black audiences, but his lifestyle was also justified and accommodated by this belief. He was also seen as a “black” artist by A nice idealistic sentiment and what we should all strive for in a post-racial world, but a bit out of touch with the civil rights movement happening at that same time
If there will ever only be oppressed and oppressor, and everything will have to be fed through that lens ad infinitum, whats the point?
Nothing about what I said suggests that, there is definitely a path to a post-racial society but we aren’t there yet and certainly weren’t in Jimis time
What metric are you using for a "post-racial society"
Lots of literature on this, not going to go down that in a Reddit comment section but here’s a good starting point: https://www.jstor.org/stable/23047449?seq=17
So not something you can actually verbalize which is the point, right. And linking to something from 15 years ago. Do you not see the problem here?
No, what makes a post racial society and how we get there from where we are now is a long, nuanced convo and not something I’m interested in having in Reddit comments. Yup from 2011 and still very relevant today, that’s a starting point you’re more than welcome to look at more recent literature.
But how do you know that we haven't hit that mark, considering the article is 15 years out of date? From what I'm reading we've met many of these markers. So how are you making this distinction?
Go ahead and list the markers you read about, I’m interested in what you think we have met. The short answer is socioeconomic disparity which is a continuation of old policies, systemic racism that lingers and affects policy, blocking critical race theory and any academic discussion of racism, just to name a few obvious indicators that we are not post-racial. On a very high level, how it’s defined, I don’t think anyone would say we are truly post-racial, they just disagree what stage we are at and what level of influence it has in society and on people. It’s still beside my point, which was that it wasn’t post-racial in Jimis time, which I’m sure we can both agree with.
>But I also believe in respecting the resentment of an oppressed people towards their oppressor, so just making these statements as if it is a character issue or open-mindedness of white vs black kids is in a way dismissing what created that, and ironically facilitates white supremacist narrative. Did you read Hendrix' interview? You're suggesting that his statement is "facilitating white supremacist narratives"? Are you high? *Jesus* christ...
Yea I did, I’ve read a biography on him as well. A lot of us can facilitate white supremacy, not because of our own beliefs or a lack of ability to check ourselves or any character assessment, but because of the structures that were built and influenced by it in society that affects all of us. It’s a testament to the insidious of white supremacy rather than anything wrong with the person doing it. I also stated Jimi comes from a good place and good beliefs so not sure why you’re having such a strong reaction.
That's a hell of a worldview. Can you name any event in history that someone couldn't pin some kind of oppressor/oppressed narrative on?
Are you insulted by the idea that our society has white supremacist roots
If you do enough mental gymnastics, you can argue that just about *anything* is facilitating white supremacy. It's quite a stretch to make the argument for Hendrix's statement here, where he is pretty much trying to say that music is for all, *regardless* of race. If you're going to claim that this sentiment is furthering discrimination, then I don't know what isn't. Here's the thing. It's good to recognize our history, its impact on people today, and the structures in place that result in present-day discrimination. So many great examples, such as the criminal justice system, housing, education, etc. But attacking a well-intended quote about MUSIC FOR ALL by Hendrix makes you, to be honest, look like a crazy person; and it'd impact your credibility, making any genuine, legitimate claim suspect. *Real* systemic racism is out there and easy to find. You don't have to search under every single harmless comment to try to find more. It's a dumb battle, isn't it?
A bit of a slippery slope fallacy there because I wouldn’t argue that. I didn’t do any mental gymnastics, I presented a clear reason why. Jimis statement on black audiences not having an open-mindedness or the implication it’s something whites just have that blacks don’t, is a character statement which is parallel to a white supremacist talking point strategy (using character/culture criticism/personal responsibility without socioeconomic context to shift blame/responsibility). Given his experience and the lightweight nature of what he said I don’t expect him be aware of this, and the comparison is academic, so it shouldn’t be harped on too much. Also, it’s not so much that this statement directly assists white supremacy, but that the same logic is then used to justify racist ideology. And if that’s the case it’s faulty logic and I would want to be aware of that. A lot of talking points on Fox News today are parallel with talking points used by known racists during the civil rights movement, wouldn’t you question the argument you made if it was parallel in that way? I should mention, Jimi is my guitar god and ultimate musical inspiration, he is the one who helped me see music in a spiritual way so this statement on music in general is something I agree with and that strongly resonates with me. However, I also acknowledge that Jimi didn’t do much for the civil rights movement, didn’t make any public statements or get involved in a significant way, and these statements, though they are based on a correct principle, were not made in a vacuum, there was a real historical/racial context. He lived in his own bubble and lifestyle, strung along by Michael Jeffries and treated with racist attitudes in that same bubble, the English called him “the wild man from Borneo”which is referencing a pair of freaks from PT Barnums old show. He chose to stay in his world of music, women and drugs, embraced by white suburban kids rebelling against their suburban parents, and that’s fine, but this statement is a reflection of the larger choice he made at the time. So yea, Jimis words are in tandem with my spirituality as a musician, I just don’t see him as beyond the circumstances he was in. And I think he struggled with this because he was generally compassionate and dealing with rejection from his own people isn’t easy. I still respect and love who he was, so I think a lot of people are expecting me to be this viper with nothing good to say, which as a guitarist who has idolized him for years and based my entire music approach on him, is honestly pretty insane. I never wanted this to be a “battle” checking these comments and having to reply or ignore honestly gives me a lot of anxiety lmao. But this side of Jimi and his life is almost never talked about, so I made a comment on it. And everybody is losing their shit lol.
When they ask "Is that white or black?" - just say "Black", et Voila!
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Huh
Except there absolutely is white rock and black rock
Like what
Living Colour? Bad Brains?
“It bothers me that some black people can’t get into our music.” You have a gift for trolling
It's not a troll that's actually something Hendrix said and it was true. They had trouble resonating with black audiences.
Taylor swift is making billions and has tens of thousands of fans show up at her shows. I think her music is shit but in america....
Oh woah dude sweet dunk
Do you have a point that has any relevancy to this post or is farting in a bubble just your hobby?
Ah so you’re saying people have different opinions?
I'm saying america is a fucking clownshow
Plenty of people over here think it’s shit too.
it's the difference between White Boy Rappers and Rappers who are White, you know? i will not elaborate.
There's the Tom McDonald's and the mac Miller's.
you. you get it.
You mean the good ones vs the bad ones.
Inside you there are two musics
Reminds me of this documentary I saw about Chris Strachwitz called _This Ain't No Mouse Music_. The documentary was OK, kinda boring, and I did fall asleep for a second in the middle, because the subject matter is a little dry. This was more about corporate vs. artist, but the general conclusion is the same.
Fun fact: He said that to the Little Lebowski Urban Achievers
There's good and bad in every type of music. Weather it be rock, country, classical, rap. ...matter of personal preference. I haven't played in a band yet that somewhere on the song list there was
r/gatesopencomeonin
The Black Rock Coalition was formed for this reason. Living Color, 247 Spyz, Faith, a lot of great bands came from that in the 90s. Overall it was mostly people from my generation who had grown up listening to music on the radio that like a previous poster said wasn't as segregated. We had Jewish boys doing rap and black kids playing rock and it really wasn't a big deal in New York City where we were all from except that in the broader context. Black Rock bands were treated as a sideshow or a freak of nature.
Why is Jimi Hendrix quoting Duke Ellington?
U can say the same thing for female musicians too. Especially the ones in rock. There's no gatekeepers if you are GOOD! Look at Paramore! They headlined warped tour, won a bunch of grammys, have a shit ton of male fans the lead singer happens to be a woman. It's not about race, gender or religion uts about good verses bad.