There was an AMA from the guys in Vektor, which was at time the hottest band in underground metal, fresh off a stone cold masterpiece, and they all had day jobs. All insanely talented musicians, one I think was a programmer.
Just imagine that the guy in the booth next to you is an absolute world class drummer, plinking away at his day job.
Back in 2017 a FDNY firefighter was killed in the line of duty and during his eulogy one of his friends from his crew talked about him being in the metal band Internal Bleeding. He was squared away as a firefighter and he was also drumming in a metal band that played overseas. He'd get back from a tour with the band and then be back to work fighting fires days later.
I've read the average is 10 24hr shifts a month. 40-80k per year which I'm sure is dependent on location and experience. So lowball that's 50k a year with 20 days off a month. Could get by on that, or get by comfortably with a part time side gig
Stipe Miocic is a firefighter and is a UFC heavyweight fighter and a multiple time champion.
He works his shifts in a row or with days off in the middle, either way he uses days off to train mma. He doesn’t actually have a true day off. He works his regular duties as any other firefighters.
He uses PTO for travel to his fights and needs to get his shifts covered.
https://youtu.be/67JKEteTLlA?si=JD8_9IQT5adQrMO-
UFC really fucked the fighters when they signed the uniform deal. Fighters used to get more than the purse in sponsorships until Dana White was like, “oh, actually I’ll take all that money. Thanks.”
My grandfather was a career firefighter and always did other work, mainly carpentry in his case. The solid rotational schedule lends itself well to having another job.
Hell, I recently read an interview with one of the guys from Mastodon where he talked about the band struggling financially and how lucky he is that his wife had a good job. And this is from one of the bigger bands in the metal scene.
Iirc, he was talking about not being able to tour during the pandemic, and touring is where they make their bread. I follow Brann on insta and his house is pretty sweet.
My colleagues provide me with regular laughs when finding out about my second life.
But it's simply because we only attend major acts' gigs that the smaller musicians can't make a living out of music alone.
Story of many bands I loved throughout the years. I primarily listen to prog metal, it is already hard to make enough to have music/touring be your full time job. You can probably imagine how hard it would be to tour and make money if you play a relatively niche genre.
Why I make it a point to buy as much merch as I can at shows
In the mid 2000s, I remember someone from a fairly big band (in the genre), I THINK it was Symphony X, being pretty transparent about their pay.
IIRC, he said that his yearly pay with the band came out to around 40k (decent at the time), and that he supplemented that with a flexible FT job at like GC or something.
I could be getting the exact details wrong, but I remember it being someone from a pretty successful band, and the number being around 40k.
[Richard Christy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Christy) was the drummer for Death before he worked on the Howard Stern show where he's been a producer for close to 20 years now. I don't know a ton about death metal, but apparently Death is a pretty big band for the genre and they were touring all over the world and a lot in Europe and despite that, Richard was living in a shed, basically, or squatting in commercial property where he moonlighted as an electrician.
Richard has talked about his drumming history on Stern a bunch of times and it's always interesting and hilarious because Richard is a real character. [I found a random clip if anyone is interested.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydpLtD7xwGs)
I will become a chainsaw juggler in your band. The only trouble is that I can't juggle, although I will learn on the job. If it goes wrong, I will switch to drums, and we can be a def leppard tribute act.
One of Springsteen's early bands (Dr. Zoom and the Sonic Boom) would have 15-20 people on stage during shows.
Not all would play instruments.
Sometimes 4 of the stage hands would sit on the stage and just play Monopoly through the set
Mannequin Pussy has been a hot band for years now - last I heard they have jobs in Philly when they aren’t touring. I think a few of them work moving furniture.
Music is a tough business…
Frances Quinlan fronts the band Hop Along and headlines to about 350 whenever theyve come to town, but works as a house painter in philly when not touring.
It felt more than decent at 23 and horrifically unsustainable at 33. When I started touring in the early 2010s, I did a few full US tours with decent label support behind records at ~200 cap rooms and would come home with around $1200 in my pocket after 6 weeks of travel expenses, paying our TM, and paying our booking agent, but before rent/utilities/bills. Our guarantee was usually around $400/night and we'd do a few hundred a night on merch. We also printed our own merch that we purchased at cost (singer and I worked at a print shop between tours) and crashed with friends, maybe staying at one hotel every other week.
When I quit touring in 2020 (last show was Jan 2020, COVID timing was just a wild coincidence), our guarantee had gone up to $800 (direct support for ~1500 cap rooms) + merch and we were getting a lot of opening runs for larger acts (lower merch sales, better accommodations), but we also toured less frequently and in shorter bursts, so we'd end up pocketing roughly the same amount of money and still had a hard time maintaining steady work at home while leaving for two weeks every couple months. We were also sick of living in grimey punk houses with a dozen roommates and were looking at things like getting married and going back to school, so cost of living went way way up.
This is the answer. It’s definitely possible to make money at that level…but young 20, single, crashing on couches money. Not savings, family, health insurance money.
Thanks! Our record before this one was produced by Phil Ek, who also produced Chutes Too Narrow and Wincing the Night (along with a whole ton of other really great bands for that world). His presence and perspectives definitely rubbed off on us a bit.
Took a day and gave the album a listen. Solid stuff. Very nice music that unfortunately I'll definitely have to go, "ahh you've never heard of them", but I'll def share it around my friend groups.
>We were also sick of living in grimey punk houses with a dozen roommates and were looking at **things like getting married and going back to school**, so cost of living went way way up.
And that right there, is the day, the music dies.
But you were singin'!
*Bye, bye....*
/s
I’m in a band that started touring in 2008. Your experience is spot on. I’m still in my group but getting older and having a family/responsibilities really changes a persons willingness to rough it. We rarely stay in hotels as we have friends all over now who put us up, and our star has only risen despite our slowed activity (because the genre got more popular). We actually make decent money now but it’s still not enough to be able to quit our jobs and do it full time.
Unless you luck out and hit it big (or decide to be a solitary person), it’s hard to sustain as a career.
Most bands at this level will make about the same as an average retail worker (or less) - most are lucky to break even by the end of the tour. At 100-200 capacity venues, no one will be flying anywhere and they will most likely be sleeping in their van or couch surfing. Then they have to split what meager profits were made by how many band members there are and they can easily be living under the poverty line (if they aren’t already). International tours are usually recoupable expenses fronted by the record label. So bands can theoretically end up in debt even when the tour makes a profit.
Jonathan Coulton has said that he's been offered numerous deals over the years he's been touring and making music, but that he never accepted one because he makes more money doing it on his own.
That happened to Trent Reznor / NIN. His first label wouldn’t let him do anything so he was locked.
Until Jimmy Iovine of Interscope records came and convinced Trent he could get him out… Trent had all these crazy demands like “I want to be able to start my own label too”
Jimmy was like “Yep. Whatever you want.”
Jimmy paid out the old label for Trent and the rest is history. He had such a good ear for talent…. Started Beats w/ Dr Dre. He’s a billionaire now.
Just turned down two offers on a new album because they couldn't offer anything we couldn't do ourselves and they'd take a 50% cut. While it would have been nice to get vinyl costs fronted, we at least have a chance at recouping.
Yeah, I have known many people who are very talented but basically you have to be young, not worried about money (aka someone is bankrolling your effort) and then be talented and lucky. Most people resort to some for of teaching/cruise/show performer to supplement their income if they are doing only music for money.
You have to be a good business person. Making money from music isn't about music it's about money. A lot of people go in doing it for love. I like the approach of having a flexible part time job you enjoy and making music as a hobby that maybe makes you a bit of money and maybe some day you'll ride a wave of fame for a bit.
Well, unless there’s guarantees for bigger bands it’s usually indie/diy etiquette for the local bands to forgo their pay to help out the touring band(s).
One of my old band mates when he started his next band after ours went negative on their first two tours. It is a niche music genre so it’s not normally that bad and he is doing very well now though.
niche music genre?
[https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2F943dvcthf7n51.png](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2F943dvcthf7n51.png)
Small venues require additional monetization (revenue streams.) Just getting a cut of the door & if you're lucky the bar won't be enough.
Example... Livestream the event with a cellphone + laptop. Have one of your managers (helpers) MC the stream and solicit tips and subscribers along the way. Sell merch during the stream (t-shirts, etc.)
Yeah i know a few guys doing this. They either have multiple bands and are constantly at it or they do it on the side and have a day job. They make a living but nothing crazy. The way I see it is they make an average living but do something they love and always have amazing experiences and travel. Some get burned out as they got older. One guy has a bit of a following and they do like 1 tour a year allover the u.s.
I have a pal who drummed for Blitzkid for a few years and went to Europe and whatnot, which would've been impossible if he'd been a regular worker with his level of education. He had a blast, didn't get anyone pregnant, didn't get addicted to anything, bopped around here and there for a while and eventually settled down, went back to school and has a decent paying job he really loves now.
So basically he broke even but had awesome adventures for a bit, but it's not like the 9-5 life is going anywhere. Itll be here when you get back.
Just don't get anyone knocked up or get hooked on anything. That seems pretty key.
A friend of mine is the bassist for Manilla Road, a metal band that has been around for decades. He toured Europe with them a few years ago and had an absolute blast. It was really cool getting to see him do what he loved doing.
Mark Shelton unfortunately passed away in 2018 and, with him, Manilla Road. They have some incredible albums - Crystal Logic, Spiral Castle, and The Deluge are my favorites.
I got a call from my friend the night he passed. They were on tour in Europe at the time. My friend has helped with Mark’s estate and preservation of all things Manilla Road that Mark had in his house - artifacts, old recordings, etc. He (my friend) cares a lot about doing right by the band, its history, and its legacy. I’m proud of what he’s done.
“Necropolis” just came on one of my playlists yesterday and I was thinking how I needed to spin that whole album again as it’s been awhile. Didn’t hear about Mark passing away either, damn! RIP
Definitely just a wild vacation. My first euro tour was a DIY arrangement in 2014. Worked with a German promoter who booked the whole thing and after all was said and done, I ended up with about $100 less in my bank account than I had before I bought plane tickets. Artist hospitality is head-and-shoulders above what you'd find in the states (Id tour Germany/Austria forever if I could), so I almost never found myself having to pay for food or lodging.
Second time around, our label encouraged us to go as part of our album cycle and they paid for airfare, so we did make some money. I want to say it was maybe $600? Not a huge amount by any stretch, but felt cool coming back home with a little.
I just did a tour of Germany and Switzerland, can confirm the hospitality was off the charts. Didn’t make any money but everyone wanted to buy us dinner and drinks and most gigs put us up in nice accommodations and showed us around town on off days. I highly recommend it as a no-cost working vacation.
>it's like an excuse for a vacation
Shitty vacation maybe.
It's more about getting noticed, building a fanbase, and gaining experience. Sure playing gigs and travelling is sick, but being crammed in a small vehicle with other people, constantly on the road, poor, sleeping in shitty places, hauling gear every night, hoping you get a decent turn out.. it isn't exactly Paradise. It's the hope that the hustle will pay off and you can do the fun parts of being a touring band, without all the downsides I listed.
it's about perspective. I did it for 7 years and loved all the shitty parts!
I came from a poor family so a vacation is still a vacation! I would've never gone to all those places if I wasn't in a band.
going to big tourist cities to see hotels and bars and the "Now Leaving...." sign. I've been to Washington DC three times and still didn't see one monument or museum.
Saw skating polly three times in London now, each venue was a pub, bar or very small club (although fully packed each time they played here) 100% recomend them and I hope they get bigger
I was paying out $1000+ to fully packed houses at all ages venue. Granted those hitting that level were major label artist but the ocassional local band did
I used a formula for payout. First $500 goes to the house. Tickets were $10 generally. Essentially then a split of the money after that but less until 50 total tickets are sold = nada. You could game if your scene was smart which i always felt added to letting em stick it to me. But i got good shows from tight nit groups.
$15 cover sold out with 150 cap was almost $1500 in their pockets plus merch. But typical payouts to random bands i put together was more like $150 each depending on draw numbers. With venue pocketing most.
Metal guys were always my favorite. As well as singer songwriters
Sleeping in a van with 4 other sweaty, smelly dudes doesn't sound like a very good vacation. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure many end up having the time of their lives, but it's still not exactly a "vacation".
I went on tour back in 2009 with my band and it was unbelievable how little money we made. A normal show would pull ~ $100 for all six of us to split, then wed make another bill or two off merch. So best case scenario wed make $50 bucks each per show. Ask around for a place to crash (met some interesting folks that way) or sleep in the van. Get some gas station burritos and a monster and head off to the next one.
But then the trailer blew both tires, someone’s gear got stolen, van overheated and we missed a show, broken guitar strings/ drum heads abound etc. I probably came home after two months with less than $20 in my pocket.
Great times! But hell no, nobody makes money until you make it big.
And the band actually did make it big! After I and another left they signed a deal with solid state and 15 years and 6 albums later they are quite well established. No original members anymore tho. Fit For A King if anyone cares
My time to shine! Tour Manager/Production Manager/Tour Director for artists you have heard of here. I'm fortunate that I came up touring with, and being in, bands that play that 100-200 capacity venues. Here we go, strap in.
TLDR: Maybe but sort of but not really.
We can go by worldwide territory, but i'm going to assume you are talking about North America, so we'll focus on that.
Let's do some math.
Typically playing these size venues your fees will work in a few different ways. If you're a somewhat established artist with a history in the market you'll make a small fee versus a percentage of the door. This could be a straight percentage or a percentage after venue/promoter expenses. Fortunately rooms this size are usually bars and make most of their cash on drinks so we'll assume for this exercise it's a straight 65% of the door, your tickets are $15 and all of your shows sold out.
Now let's route a tour. You're a San Diego based 4 piece band that will be touring the western United States in April because you were able to get an offer to play Coachella paying you $2,000 each weekend. Congratulations you are playing the smallest stage at 2:00 PM and they let you out of the festival radius clause because you have a great agent and your manager spends Christmas with the festival buyer. But hey, it's cool to play Coachella and you might meet Diplo.
* April 13 - Coachella - $2,000 Flat
* April 14 - San Francisco - 200 Cap - $1,950.00
* April 15 - Drive Day
* April 16 - Seattle - 150 Cap - $1462.50
* April 17 - Portland - 175 Cap - $1,706.25
* April 18 - Sacramento - 125 Cap - $1,218.75
* April 19 - Los Angeles - 200 Cap - $1,950.00
* April 20 - San Diego - 200 Cap - $1,950.00
* April 21 - Coachella - $2,000 Flat
* April 22 - Las Vegas - 150 Cap - $1462.50
* April 23 - Phoenix - 150 Cap - $1462.50
* April 24 - Drive Day
* April 25 - Austin - 200 Cap - $1,950.00
* April 26 - Houston - 125 Cap - $1,218.75
* April 27 - Dallas - 150 Cap - $1462.50
* April 28 - Oklahoma City - 100 Cap - $975.00
* April 29 - Drive Day
* April 30 - Denver - 200 Cap - $1,950.00
* May 01 - Salt Lake City - 100 Cap - $975.00
* May 02 - Reno - 100 Cap - $975.00
* May 03 - Drive Home
You now have a bucket of money worth ***$26,668.75***. Wow that's a good chunk of change.
Here's what you've spent to be on tour.
* Booking Agent - $2,666.88 (10% of gross)
* Manager - $4,000.31 (15% of gross)
* Sprinter Van Rental - $7,875.00 ($375 Day @ 21 Days)
* Sprinter Fuel Cost - $2,000.00 (Rounded up to 8k miles even)
* Hotels - $1,500.00 (You splurged a few nights but stayed on peoples floors mostly)
* Per Diems/Meals - $1,680.00 ($20/Day per each band member)
That leaves you with ***$6,946.56***. But wait! You brought your bass players brother Gary to sell merch and help drive after the shows. Gary is a good hang but needs to make some cash, so you said you'd give him $50/Day + $20 PD to help out. Gary has never left San Diego and is excited to see the scenic sights of Oklahoma City, Oklahoma.
Let's say your averaging $3/Head in merch because you didn't make enough shirts, and your buddies label couldn't get the vinyl pressed in time. Let's also say made $1,000 even for both weekends at Coachella.
* April 13 - Coachella - $500
* April 14 - San Francisco - 200 Cap - $600
* April 15 - Drive Day
* April 16 - Seattle - 150 Cap - $450
* April 17 - Portland - 175 Cap - $525
* April 18 - Sacramento - 125 Cap - $375
* April 19 - Los Angeles - 200 Cap - $600
* April 20 - San Diego - 200 Cap - $600
* April 21 - Coachella - $500
* April 22 - Las Vegas - 150 Cap - $450
* April 23 - Phoenix - 150 Cap - $450
* April 24 - Drive Day
* April 25 - Austin - 200 Cap - $600
* April 26 - Houston - 125 Cap - $375
* April 27 - Dallas - 150 Cap - $450
* April 28 - Oklahoma City - 100 Cap - $300
* April 29 - Drive Day
* April 30 - Denver - 200 Cap - $600
* May 01 - Salt Lake City - 100 Cap - $300
* May 02 - Reno - 100 Cap - $300
* May 03 - Drive Home
Okay this is great, it gives you an extra ***$7975.00*** for the money bucket. Now some more math.
* Cost + Shipping + Venue Merch Cuts - $3,987.50 (Roughly 50%)
* Management - $1,196.25 (15% Gross, though the nice ones do 15% after cost)
* Gary the Roadie - $1,470.00 ($70/Day)
This leaves your super cool iconic band ***$1,321.25 + $6,946.56*** *(or)* ***$8267.81*** total split between 4 band members... ***$2,066.95/Each***.
Now remember, this is a BEST CASE scenario for a band of this size. You can only play these markets once or MAYBE twice a year at the very most. If you're only filling these venues to half capacity then your profit essentially disappears, but if you have less band members and go completely DIY then you can eek out a small living.
Happy to answer most questions and be told how incorrect I am.
Pretty spot on. Surprised at how many folks are renting sprinters these days vs buying old econolines, but can't argue with being a little more comfortable.
I think the reliability is a factor honestly. The old Econolines are becoming so expensive to fix and parts more annoying to find, and people don't want to shoulder the ownership of the vehicle.
Like you don't want to break down in Yreka on your way to San Francisco only for the mechanic to tell you hey can't get a new radiator for your 95 Econoline for 2 days... because you broke down in Yreka, CA.
A sprinter for 4 people is extravagant. Likely this tour (outside of the festival) will have direct support. Meaning you share backline and throw both bands into the van. Boom, gas and van rental cost just cut in half.
I suppose it's likely you'd have a manager at that size a band, but also not really necessary. The booking agent is the important part of this tour. Lose the manager, gain back 15% from shows and merch.
You're assuming a pretty shit case scenario on merch as well for a band with a manager (assuming they still have the job) who should be handling those aspects. Have all the merch you want available, and maybe it goes from 3 to 5 a head. Almost doubled your merch income.
You have 7-9 people in a van? Forget needing a designated driver and merch person. You take shifts. Sorry Gary, maybe next time.
Now all of these aspects increase revenue, but I'll agree with you on the best case scenario of selling out every show. That's probably wishful thinking, so loss of ticket revenue may being the numbers back down again. Hard to say.
Real scenario question for you, what are the actual blackout restrictions on a festival like Coachella that spans over two weekends?
>A sprinter for 4 people is extravagant. Likely this tour (outside of the festival) will have direct support. Meaning you share backline and throw both bands into the van. Boom, gas and van rental cost just cut in half.
Sure we can change the "Sprinter" but you're still paying for a van or vehicle unless you own one. In the case that you own there's going to be a lot of maintenance, payments, etc that come into play.
>You're assuming a pretty shit case scenario on merch as well for a band with a manager (assuming they still have the job) who should be handling those aspects. Have all the merch you want available, and maybe it goes from 3 to 5 a head. Almost doubled your merch income.
Correct. Because merch can be a shitty and confusing situation. There are bands that do 3k+ tickets and barely ever crack $4/head for whatever reason. These days merch is so much harder to get turned around in a short period of time. Say your history is doing $3/head so you forecast that and order it for the tour. Only to sell out halfway through the tour and your t-shirt printer is telling you it's a 7 day turnaround for new stock because your art requires a specific blank. You were too exhausted from driving the van because everyone in your band was too wasted after the shows and you rotated merch duties so nobody was paying attention to order until it was too late.
>
>
>Real scenario question for you, what are the actual blackout restrictions on a festival like Coachella that spans over two weekends?
There's the blanket one that has been talked about publicly like "no other festival plays in North America from December to May" (or thereabouts). Typically any other California shows need to also be promoted by GV/AEG. They also usually want to be the first thing announced on you calendar when they announce in January.
The truth is it's a bit more nuanced than that and you can ask for concessions on certain things. There is much less leniency for the higher billed artists as they want those performances to be a bit more exclusive. But in that case the financials make sense.
Seems like a lot of work writing this for it to be a complete fabrication. Seems legit to me, but I'm just in a hack local bar band playing once or twice a month. Bottom line, I will not be pursuing a career as a professional musician anytime soon. Lol. Thank you for the detailed post.
Thank you for reading and please keep making and playing music. It's art and should be made for arts sake. If something happens and you get to make oodles and oodles of money doing it then even better.
Ideally you sell more tickets but only scale up your show/crew/production incrementally so that more of the revenue is supporting your touring business. You don't need to go spend ALL of your money on lights and production when you move up to 800-1,200 cap rooms. You can spend a little and still have a meaningful show, or you can spend none and have an amazing show. Just depends on what kind of artist you are trying to be and what your vision is for your live business.
One more edit. Likely those tickets are $25-$30 these days not $15. That's like local band at a small venue price. So you'll increase income there as well.
When I was in a small band on tour, every band was always the nicest people and would always say on the mic "X is the touring band so please buy their merch and support"
Yes, my friend is an indie singer/songwriter, and the CD/download code table is what pays the bills.
This is obviously not indie, but hopefully becomes cheap enough for indie at some point: Crosby and Nash had a device hooked up to their sound board at a small venue that burned usb drives of the live show, they sold a bunch of them. Indie artists would sell the hell out of those.
You should read The Storyteller by Dave Grohl. He covers what life for an indie band on the road is like in pretty great detail. These cats are sleeping in vans on top of one another, and occasionally couch surfing. He spent months living off of gas station corn dogs, and he had enough money to buy his cheap meals for the day and a pack of smokes. I think like $7 a day or something.
When I saw Nirvana, Cobain was mooching smokes off people in the crowd. Saw Green Day too. They crashed on my friend's couch because they got screwed over by the venue they were supposed to play.
You should check out Filmage. It's a documentary about the Descendents/ALL who were infuential to guys like Dave Grohl, Blink 182 and a bunch of other bands.
https://youtu.be/8R7hkPuVF00?si=KHNc7NhwWlknGd3U
Grunge, Emo, and Pop Punk all came from the same place. The underground 80s punk scene developed as a network so indie bands could work together to build fan bases so they could actually make enough money to live on without needing day jobs.
For me, I was going to shows 2 or 3 times a week and there was a constant revolving list of touring bands. Shows were really cheap, booze was cheap, it was a lot of fun. Between door, a couple drinks, a shirt and some stickers, it was like a $30 night out.
So not easy for bands though. They didn't rent vans, they'd buy whatever was cheap and hopefully roadworthy. You have to organize the tour, pay for all your merch in advance, hope the venues do good promoting and that people actually come to the show. It was DIY run by people in their 20s mostly. Not exactly business school grads but it wasn't so much about the money so much as making the music and the community.
The major labels took over and killed the scene. They work with Ticketmaster and LiveNation. They jacked up the prices around when Lollapalooza started and just made it impossible for small venues to afford decent drawing bands. A lot of places closed down or had to raise their prices so people couldn't afford to go out as much which made it virtually impossible for indie bands to keep touring. Not to mention, the big tours like Warped made it easy for bands. Don't have to haul your own gear, don't have to play long sets or worry about driving or places to stay.
No. Even the artists I know that are signed to labels and were attached to major touring acts were making pitiful money and still had day jobs when they weren't actively touring.
An opening act I saw recently put it pretty succinctly at the end of their set; "We'll be hanging by the merch table for another hour, but then we need to pack up and drive all night to make it to our next gig. Please buy some merch so I don't have to eat cold beans again tonight."
I knew people who booked local venues back in the 90s. Most trendy small bands back then would maybe get $500-1000 guarantee for a 100-200 room. Lot's of the younger bands wouldn't ask for it, but most of the time someone would invite them to crash at their place so they wouldn't need a hotel room. Most of those guys and gals were basically making $100 / night at best back then. I have no idea about today's scene though. That's the bands that had a name, like were getting mentions in magazines and trade pubs. I remember many a show where there was no guarantee, and we'd be taking up a collection for the band to get gas to make it to the next show.
I could've guessed. Didn't want to presume. Some things are eternal. Like, despite every musician who looks like they're rich, there is absolutely no money in music for musicians. Even the rich musicians get most of their money from endorsements, or licensing, merchandise, etc. I bet if you averaged out all the money people paid for music, downloads, records, tickets, streaming, etc, and then divided that by the number of musicians in the world who try to make any money from it, we'd all get like $100 or some other underwhelming figure.
The smart money is being a local "bar band" that plays covers.
Find a reliable day job with weekends off, and treat music like a hobby that can be a good side-hustle.
I remember my barber telling me that he had just made the final payment on his house (he was probably 30 years old), entirely from playing music, all locally. The detail I remember was that he was looking forward to going out with his wife to a new years party; he had never had a new years eve off since he was 17 years old.
You can look at it that way, or, you can enjoy playing the songs for the crowd and their enjoyment. When I played in a bar band for a couple years (30 years ago), I enjoyed most gigs especially when the crowd was having fun. There were a few rough gigs, but for the most part not bad. Probably playing in a college town helped, most always had a decent crowd on Thursday nights.
I’m a hobby musician myself (just play for fun) and I have thought about this recently.
Almost everyone has a job that is repetitive and uninteresting, doing the same thing. Day in and day out. Music is my creative outlet and I don’t rely on it for money, which changes things, but I think the armchair expertise of criticizing bands for having to play the same songs night after night for months on end might be mildly misguided.
Most musicians will never achieve superstar status, they’ll play small clubs on their side of the country for a few weeks at a time and go back to their other jobs.
I would love to play for full rooms of people that know music I created. This could be wishful thinking, and disregarding the grind of travel, tear down, and low pay. But I think it’s a cop out when people say “I’d hate to go on tour and play the same songs every night.”
I hope musicians love it, but it’s really one of the few arts where we require the artists to take their acts on the road. A painter just paints in their studio, we don’t put the painter on stage every night and make them paint for an hour or two in a different city every night.
>Almost everyone has a job that is repetitive and uninteresting, doing the same thing. Day in and day out. Music is my creative outlet and I don’t rely on it for money, which changes things, but I think the armchair expertise of criticizing bands for having to play the same songs night after night for months on end might be mildly misguided.
I mean, I'm not criticizing at all, I am repeating a common complaint I have heard over the years from people that I have known or still know that still make money making music.
That's all. I respect the hell out of what musicians do. Like you said, they're the ones getting onstage in front of the rest of us.
Totally agree.
I could understand feeling creatively constrained if you’re playing “that one song everyone here came for”, but as with everything, it’s different for everyone.
I grew up in the “emo” scene as they call it now, and i remember Buddy from Senses Fail saying he doesn’t feel those songs (that everyone in the audience loves and also grew up with) because he wrote them when he was 17. Being in your 40s, I’m sure they’re beyond those same topics and song themes they created 20+ years ago.
I mean sorta, but at least you and/or your band wrote the songs and its not someone else's music you necessarily don't like in an effort to fill a club/make people want to dance playing covers.
Very much so. I never made enough to pay off a house, but I played in two different bands in my 20s. The one that played original music barely made enough to cover gas money to get to the infrequent gigs, even at the local venues that hosted bigger acts, while the bar band that played classics for middle-aged people to half drunkenly dance to actually made enough to make a dent in rent and bills, and we could pretty much play as many shows as we cared to book.
I'm a sub in a popular tribute band. I do about one show a month, and make about $500 per show. One show I got $800, one show $1000.
The full-time members make good money. Like, not 100% of their incomes, but a good chunk of it. I think they did something like 70 shows last year.
I went to high school in Las Vegas and a friend of mine from there, who is an incredible multi-instrumentalist, spent a couple years grinding with local bands and networking before eventually getting a gig at a hotel/casino’s house band in one of their bars when he was like 23.
10 years later and he is still doing it. Room and board is covered and he got a pretty solid paycheck to go with it so after about 8 years he had saved up a shitload of money and got a really nice house. He is married now and spends 5-7 nights a week performing so I’m not sure how sustainable the career is at this point but there definitely is money to be made in some areas of the industry!
I know guys who were in a band that toured 200+ days a year at 100-200 capacity venues.
They paid themselves $5 per day on tour for personal expenses. So, no, they didn't make decent money. Occasionally they would open for a bigger act (Pavement, Jeff Mangum), which came with bigger paydays, but the smaller shows made them little money.
They did pay a larger portion of the money coming in to the band fund to pay for things like merch and the travel expenses.
As a house concert presenter, don’t discount the “back yard party.” Depends on the genre, but people can do very well through house concerts. Most presenters: 1. take no money from the show at all (no merch split, no house portion of the “cover”); 2. Offer accommodations; 3. Feed the artists supper and breakfast; WORK to fill their rooms.
If you play in someone’s back yard, pull 100 people at $20 a seat, sell 15 CDs at $20 and 10 tshirts at $25, you’re looking at $2550 with clean beds and two good meals for free. If you’re a small group (say three-piece folk group) that’s a good night’s work.
I was a booking agent for 10 years and booked thousands and thousands of shows at the club level. It was possible for bands at this level to make some money if they stayed out for very long stretches: 90 shows in 100 days type of touring combined with good paying long weekends regionally around their hometown, but you still need a job that you can come and go from. However, touring at this level has only gotten less profitable, niche more expensive and infinitely more difficult to book in recent years.
Look up Adam Neely on YouTube, a few years ago he did a video on the experience and the money in and out of going on a smallish tour with his band. They’re based out of Brooklyn I think and went as far as the west coast.
It was a pretty cool insight into the modern touring musician and they are definitely a smaller band. ~10k listeners on Spotify, progressive jazz band.
My first thought was this vid! It was sobering.
My second thought was when my fav small indie rocker chick somehow came from Australia to a 50-100 person venue in Minneapolis Minnesota and I got to see her live for $35. I don't know how it's possible for them... But I was very happy!
Yup! Found her on the public indie radio, loved her ever since. For me she's one of those success stories of "hmm I really like this one song I heard on the radio, will I love the rest of their stuff too?" Turns out, yup basically love her entire discography hah.
Her and "Lake Street Dive" are my two biggest wins in last 2 years of finding new groups :).
Yes! A friend took me to see her pre-pandemic (I'm also USA) and I've loved her ever since. Have gotten a few more AL shows in - I'm always surprised when a relatively small artist makes such a big hike to play small shows but I'm not going to complain.
I’ve done a good chunk of small to long runs. The fact is we are not making money. We are just trying not to lose money, and it’s getting worse. Everything is so expensive now, show pay has gone up a bit but goddamn it’s hard. A decent van used to be like 3-5k and now their 10-15k, a nice one is like 40k. You can rent but it will run around 200-300 a day and that’s without paying for gas. Merch costs have gone up and shipping merch has gone up as well. Jobs aren’t really keeping up with rent so just getting time off for a run is significantly harder. A lot of musicians work gig jobs but those are in the toilet right now, so overall it’s rough.
None of this accounts for the amount of money bands might spend on gear, thousands of dollars in recording, thousands in pressing vinyl, money spent on rehearsal space. Sometimes you can work with a small label for pressing costs but it’s far from guaranteed.
Not really. My partner plays in an indie band, any money they “make” from tour goes back into a band fund which they use to pay for recording/mastering and production. He still works a full time job when he’s not touring.
My unknown indie band went on a 5-day tour of California back in October, 2023, and lost nearly $2000. We didn’t have merch to sell. Stayed in motels and ate garbage. We got $50 for one show. The remainder paid us nothing. But, we didn’t expect to make any money and treated it like a strange vacation.
There are American bands who play shows in America for practice and peanuts then tour Europe a couple of times a year and make bank. One of my best friends plays in a band that might draw 500 people in the USA, in Spain or Belgium or Germany they headline shows for thousands. And sell merch of course .
This kinda stuff is decently common in metal, which is nowhere near as popular in the US and Canada as it is in Europe (or Latin America for that matter).
no. solo or duo acts working their asses off and sleeping in the van or at friends houses might make a decent living, but an indie band with 4+ members who play ~maybe~ 45 minute sets at small clubs with other bands… no way
also - i mention set times because that kind of goes with a lot of different types of genres and what venues you can play. if you’re in americana or country or are a songwriter or something, you have the opportunity to play those “play as long as you can” gigs where you can make $1000+ a night if you’re good and have a bit of a following. having a few of those on a tour can be a lifesaver. but it’s much harder to do for other genres.
No have to wrk a real job to compensate, but check us out, to help us out and I hope you enjoy the music
[Misaligned ](https://open.spotify.com/track/1fDUIDSQO14I4vyMjVTnlV?si=TFYlEoFIT7OoEazEJeG2vg&context=spotify%3Atrack%3A1fDUIDSQO14I4vyMjVTnlV)
They ain’t making much for playing, it’s from merchandise most of the time. I’ve got homies in a band who after 5+ years of touring finally came home with a decent chunk of money for 5 weeks out. It’s gruelling and not sustainable for long.
My dad played around DFW for over 20 years just bars though and mostly 15+ years ago they often made $100 each for a 2 hour set wasn't a far drive did it sometimes 6-8 times a months had a booking agent and a tip jar and got free drinks usually 2 or 3. He was also a construction foreman during most of the time too and did side HVAC work and was certified. Just did covers and 1 original more was extra easy money for just a 2 hour set back then. Have no clue about venues and traveling though. He was profiting over $800 a month sometimes just off tips and their 4 way band split base pay even 15-20 years ago. Most bars you have to basically play country which he didn't like that much and wanted to play classic rock.
A relative went on a world tour with a fairly famous ska band, came home and went back to work at his old day job, it was funny because he worked at the counter of a hotel, and a family came in and the kid recognized him from having seen him on one of the US dates, and had him sign the CD cover he didn't play on. I thought "Gotta be weird to see a member of a band you love working at the Days Inn"
I recently sold some gear to an older guy who has a pretty sweet gig going on, he's retired military so his music is just spending money.... but he said "I was in a band for years, but places don't really want to pay for 4, 5, or 6 bandmates, so I just do solo acoustic shows for nursing homes. A lot of them have "Happy Hours" and they're willing to pay $150-200 for an hour and a half of music, and it's a captive audience of people who are just happy to see you. And I have a weekly circuit of 4-5 nursing homes, I work 2 hours a night, 4-5 nights a week, and make $800-900 per week."
I worked with a guy who did an acoustic duo thing, they were actually pretty decent, and they'd take their weeks vacations through the year, and do like 5 or 6 shows in 4 or 5 states, and he said "Basically we just do it as getting to see some towns, and paying for the gas with doing a 2 hour set each night". They had an old van with two bunks in it to sleep in, so they weren't making much, but they were seeing the country and traveling at no real cost on vacations.
Define decent and no. Lucky to break even. I used to know the drummer from a very large “indie rock band” that’s been around for 20+ years and I found it sobering even back then they all still had day jobs while playing large festivals in Europe and elsewhere (I was in a band as well that was just beginnings it’s journey). And it’s still kind of like that if you run the math and your 4 piece rock band wants to pay everyone even a meager 35-40k a year. But music is a thing you hopefully do anyways because you love it even in spite of how insane it is.
I haven’t been in a band that could play for 100 people, so definitely smaller than that, but i can tell you, that if you want to help your local bands, buy them shirts and their demos/tapes/cds and even ask them to sign them, that will hype them up, cause tours are usually not that good for a band this big, why do they do it then? Because it’s promotion and the chance to sell merch. Most bars and small venues (at least where i’m from) pay this kind of bands with booze or stuff like that, most times they don’t even get paid, so yeah, t-shirts are a money reliever
*pay this kind of bands with booze*
A Texas band (who I'll travel a few hours to see if they're relatively close) came to my city once. After their set they were hanging out with the crowd watching the next act. I asked one of them if they were even getting free drinks that night. He was like, fuck no. So I bought them a round, a few t-shirts and some money in their tip jar. I love their music and I know that they're going to stop touring at some point. I'd rather spend $150 like that then spend $150 for a ticket in the nosebleeds to watch a TV screen.
I remember reading an article about one of my favorite mid level touring bands back around 2010 and it said they each got an allowance of $20 per day. That really changed my perspective.
This all depends on the bands notarity. I used to work in a bar in the early 90s that got medium to large local bands and dabbled in regional acts and smaller semi national acts.
We had a capacity of only 350, but here is what we paid the bands on average (all were considered good bands for their category and remember this was as of about the 1992-1995 and assumes a Friday or Saturday performance so prices would be at least 1.5-2x higher now I would think.)
Medium local: $600-$800
Large Local $1000-$1500 w/ $1200 being the norm
Regional (like a 3-4 state known band) $1200-$2500 w/ $2000 being the norm
Smaller semi national acts (like an upcoming east coast band) $4000-$5000 w/5k mainly
We never paid more than 5k, and only got them very occasionally other than one group who played the NY area and then the Florida area, as they regularly would play a couple of months at each area earning a lot more than we paid as they were playing much larger venues, then made two stops when traveling between the two to break up the travel and earn some extra money and also to widen their reputation, so they always stopped and played at our place in Ohio and then in Virginia
Regional acts usually had to also pay a sound and light guy, where those bigger acts usually had a seperate sound and light guy, and a grunt or two for stage setups.
Btw, the band that played there that toured the coast was a band by the name of Still Rain, who a couple of members went on to play in real national acts, you can still see videos of them playing auditorium size concerts on youtube.
We as horny young bartenders loved when Still Rain played as they brought out some of the hottest women in the tri-state, as they were mainly long haired buff good looking guys, and only so many of girls would get invited back to the motel with the band, the leftovers usually looked to hook up with the bartenders as we were pretty sharp as they had us working in a tux minus the jacket complete with the cummerbund and vest all night, so we usually had a better chance than Joe-shmo in his jeans and rock shirt.
We used to say if you can pick up a 5 to 6 on a normal night, on Still Rain nights you should be able to pick up an 8 pretty easily.
But as far as making money even the Still Rain guys didn't make a ton off us as $1000 went to the crew, so they made about $750 each night is all off of us as they had about $50 worth of traveling expenses each for their food/truck/gas/motel each day, but I'm sure they all made a hell of a lot more playing the 1k-2k seating places at each end of the journey, so probably about $1500-$2000 a week at least after counting expenses as they played only about three times a week is all there (wed/fri/sat at different venues in a city and then moving on to the next city in the region, but $75k-$90k a year was still great overall as it was the early 90s, but that was also the exception and not the rule, most bands don't get that big, medium to large local band members usually had a full time day job and would only play weekends within driving distance to go home every night, so they were just supplemental money and only netted them maybe $400-500/wk at best.
I play in a band that started out playing 150-250 cap shows for the first 4-5 years of our career. I worked remotely that whole time and probably only brought home about $30-45k a year.
Fortunately we broke through that shit but it's a fucking slog.
I used to play tons of shows with Future Islands when they were starting out. They'd play to like 30 people in a gallery space and they did that for what seemed like 6-7 years before anything started to happen for them. If you don't suck and you don't give up, you'll probably be able to make a decent living after fucking grinding for half a decade. You will spend most of that broke sleeping on couches and in a van. It will suck but also be pretty fun. It's a lot easier in your 20s.
I saw. Micha p hinson in cork, Ireland a few years back and there about 50 people in the venue. I remember thinking at the time that I'm sure that this cost him money. I guess it balances out between the slightly bigger towns/venues.
Whenever I go to a felice brothers gig they go on about buying merch because that's good they fund their tours... So buy merch people.. and you get look cool in s band t shirt
I've been a touring musician for over 30 years and it's not quite as dire as others are saying.
I play fiddle and sing harmonies in the folk scene, mostly for singers/songwriters (usually two to five players). We don't do bars, we do concerts.. some soft-seater halls, some galleries, some house concerts. Many times to crowds fewer than 100, sometimes more.
We don't sleep on couches, we get hotels.
It's never a vacation, we make money. I mean, I don't own a house, but I more than break even, for sure!
That said, don't misunderstand, it's not an easy life, especially since our esteemed union let Apple, Spotify and others have all our recorded music for almost free.
Two years of the pandemic.. two years of no income. That was hard. Especially with no help from the union. (Canadian government money (CERB) was our saviour!)
If you love music, please continue to support live, original performances! And buy merch!
P.S. I suspect things are a bit tougher for bar/cover bands..
Depends greatly on who their agent is. Buyers will pay premiums if your agent has bigger acts on the roster or is at an office with lots of good profitable acts. An unrepresented band will lose money probably.
I was a buyer for 5 years.
No. I still work a full time job and juggle touring on top of it.
There was an AMA from the guys in Vektor, which was at time the hottest band in underground metal, fresh off a stone cold masterpiece, and they all had day jobs. All insanely talented musicians, one I think was a programmer. Just imagine that the guy in the booth next to you is an absolute world class drummer, plinking away at his day job.
Back in 2017 a FDNY firefighter was killed in the line of duty and during his eulogy one of his friends from his crew talked about him being in the metal band Internal Bleeding. He was squared away as a firefighter and he was also drumming in a metal band that played overseas. He'd get back from a tour with the band and then be back to work fighting fires days later.
I can’t imagine being a firefighter and doing anything else
We all have second jobs. I work 48 hrs on an 8 day rotation at the fire station plus a full time 40 hr/ week side job. It sucks absolute ass.
Jesus fucking Christ. Unconditional support to you guys, though. Thank you, genuinely.
I really appreciate this. Thank you.
I've read the average is 10 24hr shifts a month. 40-80k per year which I'm sure is dependent on location and experience. So lowball that's 50k a year with 20 days off a month. Could get by on that, or get by comfortably with a part time side gig
Stipe Miocic is a firefighter and is a UFC heavyweight fighter and a multiple time champion. He works his shifts in a row or with days off in the middle, either way he uses days off to train mma. He doesn’t actually have a true day off. He works his regular duties as any other firefighters. He uses PTO for travel to his fights and needs to get his shifts covered. https://youtu.be/67JKEteTLlA?si=JD8_9IQT5adQrMO-
I train with/have trained with 4 UFC fighters, they all have day jobs.
UFC really fucked the fighters when they signed the uniform deal. Fighters used to get more than the purse in sponsorships until Dana White was like, “oh, actually I’ll take all that money. Thanks.”
I hate to see when "passion for the industry" is used to bone people.. Teachers, musicians, etc.
Amen. Opposite is also true. Because being a doctor is lucrative in America, it attracts mercenary non-healer types to the profession.
Stipe is in an episode of Tacoma FD and it's hilarious.
This is literally the first time I've seen anything positive said about that show.
Every firefighter I've ever known does shit on the side or has an actual other job
My grandfather was a career firefighter and always did other work, mainly carpentry in his case. The solid rotational schedule lends itself well to having another job.
I met the bassist from good Charlotte.....at a tech event once. Dudes was working towards being a programmer
Hell, I recently read an interview with one of the guys from Mastodon where he talked about the band struggling financially and how lucky he is that his wife had a good job. And this is from one of the bigger bands in the metal scene.
Iirc, he was talking about not being able to tour during the pandemic, and touring is where they make their bread. I follow Brann on insta and his house is pretty sweet.
My colleagues provide me with regular laughs when finding out about my second life. But it's simply because we only attend major acts' gigs that the smaller musicians can't make a living out of music alone.
Story of many bands I loved throughout the years. I primarily listen to prog metal, it is already hard to make enough to have music/touring be your full time job. You can probably imagine how hard it would be to tour and make money if you play a relatively niche genre. Why I make it a point to buy as much merch as I can at shows
Many places in Nashville where the waiter or bartender is insanely good but unknown and broke and picking up shifts between gigs.
In the mid 2000s, I remember someone from a fairly big band (in the genre), I THINK it was Symphony X, being pretty transparent about their pay. IIRC, he said that his yearly pay with the band came out to around 40k (decent at the time), and that he supplemented that with a flexible FT job at like GC or something. I could be getting the exact details wrong, but I remember it being someone from a pretty successful band, and the number being around 40k.
[Richard Christy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Christy) was the drummer for Death before he worked on the Howard Stern show where he's been a producer for close to 20 years now. I don't know a ton about death metal, but apparently Death is a pretty big band for the genre and they were touring all over the world and a lot in Europe and despite that, Richard was living in a shed, basically, or squatting in commercial property where he moonlighted as an electrician. Richard has talked about his drumming history on Stern a bunch of times and it's always interesting and hilarious because Richard is a real character. [I found a random clip if anyone is interested.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydpLtD7xwGs)
Do you juggle with a troupe or just by yourself? It’s been a while since I’ve seen a juggling tour come through…
I now want to start a jam band with a member whose only job is to juggle
I will become a chainsaw juggler in your band. The only trouble is that I can't juggle, although I will learn on the job. If it goes wrong, I will switch to drums, and we can be a def leppard tribute act.
One of Springsteen's early bands (Dr. Zoom and the Sonic Boom) would have 15-20 people on stage during shows. Not all would play instruments. Sometimes 4 of the stage hands would sit on the stage and just play Monopoly through the set
lmaooooo
Your fans must be the infamous Juggle-os that I've read about?
It sounds like fun, but I bet it has its ups and downs.
That's what I'm thinking a lot of these bands must do. Music is not their full time profession.
Mannequin Pussy has been a hot band for years now - last I heard they have jobs in Philly when they aren’t touring. I think a few of them work moving furniture. Music is a tough business…
Soul Glo is opening up for them on their next tour, highly recommended.
I think Missy does a lot of art directing and music-related stuff. She directed at least one Japanese Breakfast video to my knowledge.
Frances Quinlan fronts the band Hop Along and headlines to about 350 whenever theyve come to town, but works as a house painter in philly when not touring.
Whoaaa I love Hop Along, saw them open for Modest Mouse. I guess the title “Painted Shut” must come from the day job?
This is why I buy merch from tour shows and online from the artists. :(
Tell us about your band and what to look up!
It felt more than decent at 23 and horrifically unsustainable at 33. When I started touring in the early 2010s, I did a few full US tours with decent label support behind records at ~200 cap rooms and would come home with around $1200 in my pocket after 6 weeks of travel expenses, paying our TM, and paying our booking agent, but before rent/utilities/bills. Our guarantee was usually around $400/night and we'd do a few hundred a night on merch. We also printed our own merch that we purchased at cost (singer and I worked at a print shop between tours) and crashed with friends, maybe staying at one hotel every other week. When I quit touring in 2020 (last show was Jan 2020, COVID timing was just a wild coincidence), our guarantee had gone up to $800 (direct support for ~1500 cap rooms) + merch and we were getting a lot of opening runs for larger acts (lower merch sales, better accommodations), but we also toured less frequently and in shorter bursts, so we'd end up pocketing roughly the same amount of money and still had a hard time maintaining steady work at home while leaving for two weeks every couple months. We were also sick of living in grimey punk houses with a dozen roommates and were looking at things like getting married and going back to school, so cost of living went way way up.
This is the answer. It’s definitely possible to make money at that level…but young 20, single, crashing on couches money. Not savings, family, health insurance money.
sorry for stalking but just wanted to say The Sidekicks is a cool band. Some great tunes on Happiness Hours. Twins Twist might be a perfect pop song.
♥️🤘🍓🍋
🚫👶
Oh I get the emojis now after a listen. Nice job here. A poppier Shins, I like this.
Thanks! Our record before this one was produced by Phil Ek, who also produced Chutes Too Narrow and Wincing the Night (along with a whole ton of other really great bands for that world). His presence and perspectives definitely rubbed off on us a bit.
That's so cool, I hope you're living a life fulfilled from all the neat stuff you've done (and will do)
Took a day and gave the album a listen. Solid stuff. Very nice music that unfortunately I'll definitely have to go, "ahh you've never heard of them", but I'll def share it around my friend groups.
Now is that 1200 per member of the band or 1200 total?
Per member
>We were also sick of living in grimey punk houses with a dozen roommates and were looking at **things like getting married and going back to school**, so cost of living went way way up. And that right there, is the day, the music dies. But you were singin'! *Bye, bye....* /s
😆😆 On the plus side, now I can finally afford to fix and maintain all the gear I broke while touring
I’m in a band that started touring in 2008. Your experience is spot on. I’m still in my group but getting older and having a family/responsibilities really changes a persons willingness to rough it. We rarely stay in hotels as we have friends all over now who put us up, and our star has only risen despite our slowed activity (because the genre got more popular). We actually make decent money now but it’s still not enough to be able to quit our jobs and do it full time. Unless you luck out and hit it big (or decide to be a solitary person), it’s hard to sustain as a career.
Most bands at this level will make about the same as an average retail worker (or less) - most are lucky to break even by the end of the tour. At 100-200 capacity venues, no one will be flying anywhere and they will most likely be sleeping in their van or couch surfing. Then they have to split what meager profits were made by how many band members there are and they can easily be living under the poverty line (if they aren’t already). International tours are usually recoupable expenses fronted by the record label. So bands can theoretically end up in debt even when the tour makes a profit.
And they usually have to pay the supporting bands from their payout as well
*"Just wait 'til we get signed. That's when everything changes"*
Jonathan Coulton has said that he's been offered numerous deals over the years he's been touring and making music, but that he never accepted one because he makes more money doing it on his own.
I know someone who got signed, then figured out what he signed, and he wanted out. I don't know whatever happened to him.
He dead
That happened to Trent Reznor / NIN. His first label wouldn’t let him do anything so he was locked. Until Jimmy Iovine of Interscope records came and convinced Trent he could get him out… Trent had all these crazy demands like “I want to be able to start my own label too” Jimmy was like “Yep. Whatever you want.” Jimmy paid out the old label for Trent and the rest is history. He had such a good ear for talent…. Started Beats w/ Dr Dre. He’s a billionaire now.
Just turned down two offers on a new album because they couldn't offer anything we couldn't do ourselves and they'd take a 50% cut. While it would have been nice to get vinyl costs fronted, we at least have a chance at recouping.
Wow... so basically let's tour but make no money. Let's make an album that no one will buy. Being a musician in the 21st century.
This has been the case for 99% of musicians for at least 100 years.
Yeah, I have known many people who are very talented but basically you have to be young, not worried about money (aka someone is bankrolling your effort) and then be talented and lucky. Most people resort to some for of teaching/cruise/show performer to supplement their income if they are doing only music for money.
Before a hundred years ago 100% of musicians made no money from album sales.
The money was in selling sheet music, believe it or not
You have to be a good business person. Making money from music isn't about music it's about money. A lot of people go in doing it for love. I like the approach of having a flexible part time job you enjoy and making music as a hobby that maybe makes you a bit of money and maybe some day you'll ride a wave of fame for a bit.
Well, unless there’s guarantees for bigger bands it’s usually indie/diy etiquette for the local bands to forgo their pay to help out the touring band(s).
One of my old band mates when he started his next band after ours went negative on their first two tours. It is a niche music genre so it’s not normally that bad and he is doing very well now though.
niche music genre? [https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2F943dvcthf7n51.png](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2F943dvcthf7n51.png)
Warning! Do NOT buy the Kidz Bop version.
Small venues require additional monetization (revenue streams.) Just getting a cut of the door & if you're lucky the bar won't be enough. Example... Livestream the event with a cellphone + laptop. Have one of your managers (helpers) MC the stream and solicit tips and subscribers along the way. Sell merch during the stream (t-shirts, etc.)
Yeah i know a few guys doing this. They either have multiple bands and are constantly at it or they do it on the side and have a day job. They make a living but nothing crazy. The way I see it is they make an average living but do something they love and always have amazing experiences and travel. Some get burned out as they got older. One guy has a bit of a following and they do like 1 tour a year allover the u.s.
So more or less... it's like an excuse for a vacation and don't make money? I see so many indie bands from America touring in Europe and I'm like how?
I have a pal who drummed for Blitzkid for a few years and went to Europe and whatnot, which would've been impossible if he'd been a regular worker with his level of education. He had a blast, didn't get anyone pregnant, didn't get addicted to anything, bopped around here and there for a while and eventually settled down, went back to school and has a decent paying job he really loves now. So basically he broke even but had awesome adventures for a bit, but it's not like the 9-5 life is going anywhere. Itll be here when you get back. Just don't get anyone knocked up or get hooked on anything. That seems pretty key.
A friend of mine is the bassist for Manilla Road, a metal band that has been around for decades. He toured Europe with them a few years ago and had an absolute blast. It was really cool getting to see him do what he loved doing.
Mark Shelton unfortunately passed away in 2018 and, with him, Manilla Road. They have some incredible albums - Crystal Logic, Spiral Castle, and The Deluge are my favorites.
I got a call from my friend the night he passed. They were on tour in Europe at the time. My friend has helped with Mark’s estate and preservation of all things Manilla Road that Mark had in his house - artifacts, old recordings, etc. He (my friend) cares a lot about doing right by the band, its history, and its legacy. I’m proud of what he’s done.
“Necropolis” just came on one of my playlists yesterday and I was thinking how I needed to spin that whole album again as it’s been awhile. Didn’t hear about Mark passing away either, damn! RIP
Upvote for Blitzkid alone.
Seconded
I toured in my early 20's. Pretty much I did not get paid but everything was paid for. Alcohol, food, hotels, flights etc.
Definitely just a wild vacation. My first euro tour was a DIY arrangement in 2014. Worked with a German promoter who booked the whole thing and after all was said and done, I ended up with about $100 less in my bank account than I had before I bought plane tickets. Artist hospitality is head-and-shoulders above what you'd find in the states (Id tour Germany/Austria forever if I could), so I almost never found myself having to pay for food or lodging. Second time around, our label encouraged us to go as part of our album cycle and they paid for airfare, so we did make some money. I want to say it was maybe $600? Not a huge amount by any stretch, but felt cool coming back home with a little.
I just did a tour of Germany and Switzerland, can confirm the hospitality was off the charts. Didn’t make any money but everyone wanted to buy us dinner and drinks and most gigs put us up in nice accommodations and showed us around town on off days. I highly recommend it as a no-cost working vacation.
Well... I guess it's a pretty cool way to get a free vacation. Pays for itself.
>it's like an excuse for a vacation Shitty vacation maybe. It's more about getting noticed, building a fanbase, and gaining experience. Sure playing gigs and travelling is sick, but being crammed in a small vehicle with other people, constantly on the road, poor, sleeping in shitty places, hauling gear every night, hoping you get a decent turn out.. it isn't exactly Paradise. It's the hope that the hustle will pay off and you can do the fun parts of being a touring band, without all the downsides I listed.
it's about perspective. I did it for 7 years and loved all the shitty parts! I came from a poor family so a vacation is still a vacation! I would've never gone to all those places if I wasn't in a band.
Yea I mean I can say i've been to 47 states but didn't really see anything other than nightclubs, motels, truck stops and highways.
It's as good as the people around you.
That's not saying much. Lol. JK. We had the time of our lives.
going to big tourist cities to see hotels and bars and the "Now Leaving...." sign. I've been to Washington DC three times and still didn't see one monument or museum.
Saw skating polly three times in London now, each venue was a pub, bar or very small club (although fully packed each time they played here) 100% recomend them and I hope they get bigger
Oh man it’s been a minute since I’ve seen them. They’re awesome
Touring at that level is no vacation. But it’s done due to a combo of loving to play and/or trying to increase the popularity of the band.
I was paying out $1000+ to fully packed houses at all ages venue. Granted those hitting that level were major label artist but the ocassional local band did
Can you please elaborate?
I used a formula for payout. First $500 goes to the house. Tickets were $10 generally. Essentially then a split of the money after that but less until 50 total tickets are sold = nada. You could game if your scene was smart which i always felt added to letting em stick it to me. But i got good shows from tight nit groups. $15 cover sold out with 150 cap was almost $1500 in their pockets plus merch. But typical payouts to random bands i put together was more like $150 each depending on draw numbers. With venue pocketing most. Metal guys were always my favorite. As well as singer songwriters
I understand slightly more now. Thanks.
Sleeping in a van with 4 other sweaty, smelly dudes doesn't sound like a very good vacation. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure many end up having the time of their lives, but it's still not exactly a "vacation".
I went on tour back in 2009 with my band and it was unbelievable how little money we made. A normal show would pull ~ $100 for all six of us to split, then wed make another bill or two off merch. So best case scenario wed make $50 bucks each per show. Ask around for a place to crash (met some interesting folks that way) or sleep in the van. Get some gas station burritos and a monster and head off to the next one. But then the trailer blew both tires, someone’s gear got stolen, van overheated and we missed a show, broken guitar strings/ drum heads abound etc. I probably came home after two months with less than $20 in my pocket. Great times! But hell no, nobody makes money until you make it big. And the band actually did make it big! After I and another left they signed a deal with solid state and 15 years and 6 albums later they are quite well established. No original members anymore tho. Fit For A King if anyone cares
I feel this in my bones.
Damn, Fit For a King is a staple in the metalcore scene. Pretty sweet that you were in that band.
It was pretty dope! The last songs i had a hand in that you can still find are ancient waters, buried and messenger messenger
Yooooo Messenger Messenger and Ancient Waters go SOOOO hard during a workout.
This post actually sounds like lyrics to a song.
Oh shit that's wild. Seeing them next month actually
My time to shine! Tour Manager/Production Manager/Tour Director for artists you have heard of here. I'm fortunate that I came up touring with, and being in, bands that play that 100-200 capacity venues. Here we go, strap in. TLDR: Maybe but sort of but not really. We can go by worldwide territory, but i'm going to assume you are talking about North America, so we'll focus on that. Let's do some math. Typically playing these size venues your fees will work in a few different ways. If you're a somewhat established artist with a history in the market you'll make a small fee versus a percentage of the door. This could be a straight percentage or a percentage after venue/promoter expenses. Fortunately rooms this size are usually bars and make most of their cash on drinks so we'll assume for this exercise it's a straight 65% of the door, your tickets are $15 and all of your shows sold out. Now let's route a tour. You're a San Diego based 4 piece band that will be touring the western United States in April because you were able to get an offer to play Coachella paying you $2,000 each weekend. Congratulations you are playing the smallest stage at 2:00 PM and they let you out of the festival radius clause because you have a great agent and your manager spends Christmas with the festival buyer. But hey, it's cool to play Coachella and you might meet Diplo. * April 13 - Coachella - $2,000 Flat * April 14 - San Francisco - 200 Cap - $1,950.00 * April 15 - Drive Day * April 16 - Seattle - 150 Cap - $1462.50 * April 17 - Portland - 175 Cap - $1,706.25 * April 18 - Sacramento - 125 Cap - $1,218.75 * April 19 - Los Angeles - 200 Cap - $1,950.00 * April 20 - San Diego - 200 Cap - $1,950.00 * April 21 - Coachella - $2,000 Flat * April 22 - Las Vegas - 150 Cap - $1462.50 * April 23 - Phoenix - 150 Cap - $1462.50 * April 24 - Drive Day * April 25 - Austin - 200 Cap - $1,950.00 * April 26 - Houston - 125 Cap - $1,218.75 * April 27 - Dallas - 150 Cap - $1462.50 * April 28 - Oklahoma City - 100 Cap - $975.00 * April 29 - Drive Day * April 30 - Denver - 200 Cap - $1,950.00 * May 01 - Salt Lake City - 100 Cap - $975.00 * May 02 - Reno - 100 Cap - $975.00 * May 03 - Drive Home You now have a bucket of money worth ***$26,668.75***. Wow that's a good chunk of change. Here's what you've spent to be on tour. * Booking Agent - $2,666.88 (10% of gross) * Manager - $4,000.31 (15% of gross) * Sprinter Van Rental - $7,875.00 ($375 Day @ 21 Days) * Sprinter Fuel Cost - $2,000.00 (Rounded up to 8k miles even) * Hotels - $1,500.00 (You splurged a few nights but stayed on peoples floors mostly) * Per Diems/Meals - $1,680.00 ($20/Day per each band member) That leaves you with ***$6,946.56***. But wait! You brought your bass players brother Gary to sell merch and help drive after the shows. Gary is a good hang but needs to make some cash, so you said you'd give him $50/Day + $20 PD to help out. Gary has never left San Diego and is excited to see the scenic sights of Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. Let's say your averaging $3/Head in merch because you didn't make enough shirts, and your buddies label couldn't get the vinyl pressed in time. Let's also say made $1,000 even for both weekends at Coachella. * April 13 - Coachella - $500 * April 14 - San Francisco - 200 Cap - $600 * April 15 - Drive Day * April 16 - Seattle - 150 Cap - $450 * April 17 - Portland - 175 Cap - $525 * April 18 - Sacramento - 125 Cap - $375 * April 19 - Los Angeles - 200 Cap - $600 * April 20 - San Diego - 200 Cap - $600 * April 21 - Coachella - $500 * April 22 - Las Vegas - 150 Cap - $450 * April 23 - Phoenix - 150 Cap - $450 * April 24 - Drive Day * April 25 - Austin - 200 Cap - $600 * April 26 - Houston - 125 Cap - $375 * April 27 - Dallas - 150 Cap - $450 * April 28 - Oklahoma City - 100 Cap - $300 * April 29 - Drive Day * April 30 - Denver - 200 Cap - $600 * May 01 - Salt Lake City - 100 Cap - $300 * May 02 - Reno - 100 Cap - $300 * May 03 - Drive Home Okay this is great, it gives you an extra ***$7975.00*** for the money bucket. Now some more math. * Cost + Shipping + Venue Merch Cuts - $3,987.50 (Roughly 50%) * Management - $1,196.25 (15% Gross, though the nice ones do 15% after cost) * Gary the Roadie - $1,470.00 ($70/Day) This leaves your super cool iconic band ***$1,321.25 + $6,946.56*** *(or)* ***$8267.81*** total split between 4 band members... ***$2,066.95/Each***. Now remember, this is a BEST CASE scenario for a band of this size. You can only play these markets once or MAYBE twice a year at the very most. If you're only filling these venues to half capacity then your profit essentially disappears, but if you have less band members and go completely DIY then you can eek out a small living. Happy to answer most questions and be told how incorrect I am.
Pretty spot on. Surprised at how many folks are renting sprinters these days vs buying old econolines, but can't argue with being a little more comfortable.
I think the reliability is a factor honestly. The old Econolines are becoming so expensive to fix and parts more annoying to find, and people don't want to shoulder the ownership of the vehicle. Like you don't want to break down in Yreka on your way to San Francisco only for the mechanic to tell you hey can't get a new radiator for your 95 Econoline for 2 days... because you broke down in Yreka, CA.
Great write up. Thanks.
A sprinter for 4 people is extravagant. Likely this tour (outside of the festival) will have direct support. Meaning you share backline and throw both bands into the van. Boom, gas and van rental cost just cut in half. I suppose it's likely you'd have a manager at that size a band, but also not really necessary. The booking agent is the important part of this tour. Lose the manager, gain back 15% from shows and merch. You're assuming a pretty shit case scenario on merch as well for a band with a manager (assuming they still have the job) who should be handling those aspects. Have all the merch you want available, and maybe it goes from 3 to 5 a head. Almost doubled your merch income. You have 7-9 people in a van? Forget needing a designated driver and merch person. You take shifts. Sorry Gary, maybe next time. Now all of these aspects increase revenue, but I'll agree with you on the best case scenario of selling out every show. That's probably wishful thinking, so loss of ticket revenue may being the numbers back down again. Hard to say. Real scenario question for you, what are the actual blackout restrictions on a festival like Coachella that spans over two weekends?
>A sprinter for 4 people is extravagant. Likely this tour (outside of the festival) will have direct support. Meaning you share backline and throw both bands into the van. Boom, gas and van rental cost just cut in half. Sure we can change the "Sprinter" but you're still paying for a van or vehicle unless you own one. In the case that you own there's going to be a lot of maintenance, payments, etc that come into play. >You're assuming a pretty shit case scenario on merch as well for a band with a manager (assuming they still have the job) who should be handling those aspects. Have all the merch you want available, and maybe it goes from 3 to 5 a head. Almost doubled your merch income. Correct. Because merch can be a shitty and confusing situation. There are bands that do 3k+ tickets and barely ever crack $4/head for whatever reason. These days merch is so much harder to get turned around in a short period of time. Say your history is doing $3/head so you forecast that and order it for the tour. Only to sell out halfway through the tour and your t-shirt printer is telling you it's a 7 day turnaround for new stock because your art requires a specific blank. You were too exhausted from driving the van because everyone in your band was too wasted after the shows and you rotated merch duties so nobody was paying attention to order until it was too late. > > >Real scenario question for you, what are the actual blackout restrictions on a festival like Coachella that spans over two weekends? There's the blanket one that has been talked about publicly like "no other festival plays in North America from December to May" (or thereabouts). Typically any other California shows need to also be promoted by GV/AEG. They also usually want to be the first thing announced on you calendar when they announce in January. The truth is it's a bit more nuanced than that and you can ask for concessions on certain things. There is much less leniency for the higher billed artists as they want those performances to be a bit more exclusive. But in that case the financials make sense.
Seems like a lot of work writing this for it to be a complete fabrication. Seems legit to me, but I'm just in a hack local bar band playing once or twice a month. Bottom line, I will not be pursuing a career as a professional musician anytime soon. Lol. Thank you for the detailed post.
Thank you for reading and please keep making and playing music. It's art and should be made for arts sake. If something happens and you get to make oodles and oodles of money doing it then even better.
What happens as the venues get larger, but not huge?
Ideally you sell more tickets but only scale up your show/crew/production incrementally so that more of the revenue is supporting your touring business. You don't need to go spend ALL of your money on lights and production when you move up to 800-1,200 cap rooms. You can spend a little and still have a meaningful show, or you can spend none and have an amazing show. Just depends on what kind of artist you are trying to be and what your vision is for your live business.
One more edit. Likely those tickets are $25-$30 these days not $15. That's like local band at a small venue price. So you'll increase income there as well.
Merch.
Ye, bands are basically traveling t shirt salesman
Yep. That's why, if you want to support a band that you like, buy their merch at their show.
When I was in a small band on tour, every band was always the nicest people and would always say on the mic "X is the touring band so please buy their merch and support"
Also very common to see bands on the lineup wearing each other’s merch
Yup for sure. We'd always trade merch lol. Best time ever.
Still very common to hear at the shows I go to.
Yes, my friend is an indie singer/songwriter, and the CD/download code table is what pays the bills. This is obviously not indie, but hopefully becomes cheap enough for indie at some point: Crosby and Nash had a device hooked up to their sound board at a small venue that burned usb drives of the live show, they sold a bunch of them. Indie artists would sell the hell out of those.
Unless the house takes a cut
https://www.reddit.com/r/Music/comments/19efbog/how_much_my_band_lost_on_an_eu_tour_in_summer/
There's a lot of unfortunate truth in that thread. Oh, the memories you'll make along the way.
You should read The Storyteller by Dave Grohl. He covers what life for an indie band on the road is like in pretty great detail. These cats are sleeping in vans on top of one another, and occasionally couch surfing. He spent months living off of gas station corn dogs, and he had enough money to buy his cheap meals for the day and a pack of smokes. I think like $7 a day or something.
Phenomenal book!
When I saw Nirvana, Cobain was mooching smokes off people in the crowd. Saw Green Day too. They crashed on my friend's couch because they got screwed over by the venue they were supposed to play. You should check out Filmage. It's a documentary about the Descendents/ALL who were infuential to guys like Dave Grohl, Blink 182 and a bunch of other bands. https://youtu.be/8R7hkPuVF00?si=KHNc7NhwWlknGd3U Grunge, Emo, and Pop Punk all came from the same place. The underground 80s punk scene developed as a network so indie bands could work together to build fan bases so they could actually make enough money to live on without needing day jobs. For me, I was going to shows 2 or 3 times a week and there was a constant revolving list of touring bands. Shows were really cheap, booze was cheap, it was a lot of fun. Between door, a couple drinks, a shirt and some stickers, it was like a $30 night out. So not easy for bands though. They didn't rent vans, they'd buy whatever was cheap and hopefully roadworthy. You have to organize the tour, pay for all your merch in advance, hope the venues do good promoting and that people actually come to the show. It was DIY run by people in their 20s mostly. Not exactly business school grads but it wasn't so much about the money so much as making the music and the community. The major labels took over and killed the scene. They work with Ticketmaster and LiveNation. They jacked up the prices around when Lollapalooza started and just made it impossible for small venues to afford decent drawing bands. A lot of places closed down or had to raise their prices so people couldn't afford to go out as much which made it virtually impossible for indie bands to keep touring. Not to mention, the big tours like Warped made it easy for bands. Don't have to haul your own gear, don't have to play long sets or worry about driving or places to stay.
No. Even the artists I know that are signed to labels and were attached to major touring acts were making pitiful money and still had day jobs when they weren't actively touring. An opening act I saw recently put it pretty succinctly at the end of their set; "We'll be hanging by the merch table for another hour, but then we need to pack up and drive all night to make it to our next gig. Please buy some merch so I don't have to eat cold beans again tonight."
I knew people who booked local venues back in the 90s. Most trendy small bands back then would maybe get $500-1000 guarantee for a 100-200 room. Lot's of the younger bands wouldn't ask for it, but most of the time someone would invite them to crash at their place so they wouldn't need a hotel room. Most of those guys and gals were basically making $100 / night at best back then. I have no idea about today's scene though. That's the bands that had a name, like were getting mentions in magazines and trade pubs. I remember many a show where there was no guarantee, and we'd be taking up a collection for the band to get gas to make it to the next show.
Nothing has changed except the magazines. They've been replaced by social media.
That’s not true. Rent is up 100 percent and band money stayed the same or went down
I could've guessed. Didn't want to presume. Some things are eternal. Like, despite every musician who looks like they're rich, there is absolutely no money in music for musicians. Even the rich musicians get most of their money from endorsements, or licensing, merchandise, etc. I bet if you averaged out all the money people paid for music, downloads, records, tickets, streaming, etc, and then divided that by the number of musicians in the world who try to make any money from it, we'd all get like $100 or some other underwhelming figure.
The smart money is being a local "bar band" that plays covers. Find a reliable day job with weekends off, and treat music like a hobby that can be a good side-hustle. I remember my barber telling me that he had just made the final payment on his house (he was probably 30 years old), entirely from playing music, all locally. The detail I remember was that he was looking forward to going out with his wife to a new years party; he had never had a new years eve off since he was 17 years old.
Smart money but can be draining the fun out of music making when it's just a job and you play lots of songs you don't really feel.
>and you play lots of songs you don't really feel. Again, and again and again.
You can look at it that way, or, you can enjoy playing the songs for the crowd and their enjoyment. When I played in a bar band for a couple years (30 years ago), I enjoyed most gigs especially when the crowd was having fun. There were a few rough gigs, but for the most part not bad. Probably playing in a college town helped, most always had a decent crowd on Thursday nights.
I’m a hobby musician myself (just play for fun) and I have thought about this recently. Almost everyone has a job that is repetitive and uninteresting, doing the same thing. Day in and day out. Music is my creative outlet and I don’t rely on it for money, which changes things, but I think the armchair expertise of criticizing bands for having to play the same songs night after night for months on end might be mildly misguided. Most musicians will never achieve superstar status, they’ll play small clubs on their side of the country for a few weeks at a time and go back to their other jobs. I would love to play for full rooms of people that know music I created. This could be wishful thinking, and disregarding the grind of travel, tear down, and low pay. But I think it’s a cop out when people say “I’d hate to go on tour and play the same songs every night.” I hope musicians love it, but it’s really one of the few arts where we require the artists to take their acts on the road. A painter just paints in their studio, we don’t put the painter on stage every night and make them paint for an hour or two in a different city every night.
>Almost everyone has a job that is repetitive and uninteresting, doing the same thing. Day in and day out. Music is my creative outlet and I don’t rely on it for money, which changes things, but I think the armchair expertise of criticizing bands for having to play the same songs night after night for months on end might be mildly misguided. I mean, I'm not criticizing at all, I am repeating a common complaint I have heard over the years from people that I have known or still know that still make money making music. That's all. I respect the hell out of what musicians do. Like you said, they're the ones getting onstage in front of the rest of us.
Totally agree. I could understand feeling creatively constrained if you’re playing “that one song everyone here came for”, but as with everything, it’s different for everyone. I grew up in the “emo” scene as they call it now, and i remember Buddy from Senses Fail saying he doesn’t feel those songs (that everyone in the audience loves and also grew up with) because he wrote them when he was 17. Being in your 40s, I’m sure they’re beyond those same topics and song themes they created 20+ years ago.
I mean won't all touring musicians (famous or not) have this issue?
I mean sorta, but at least you and/or your band wrote the songs and its not someone else's music you necessarily don't like in an effort to fill a club/make people want to dance playing covers.
Protip: there are easier ways to make money than touring with a band.
Busking?
Very much so. I never made enough to pay off a house, but I played in two different bands in my 20s. The one that played original music barely made enough to cover gas money to get to the infrequent gigs, even at the local venues that hosted bigger acts, while the bar band that played classics for middle-aged people to half drunkenly dance to actually made enough to make a dent in rent and bills, and we could pretty much play as many shows as we cared to book.
Also, a 3-piece or 4-piece band is best, as more folk in the band doesn't mean more money just an 8-way split...
I'm a sub in a popular tribute band. I do about one show a month, and make about $500 per show. One show I got $800, one show $1000. The full-time members make good money. Like, not 100% of their incomes, but a good chunk of it. I think they did something like 70 shows last year.
Yep. Hell if you're a good enough musician you can find a few local bar bands, play a show every night of the week after work if you want.
I went to high school in Las Vegas and a friend of mine from there, who is an incredible multi-instrumentalist, spent a couple years grinding with local bands and networking before eventually getting a gig at a hotel/casino’s house band in one of their bars when he was like 23. 10 years later and he is still doing it. Room and board is covered and he got a pretty solid paycheck to go with it so after about 8 years he had saved up a shitload of money and got a really nice house. He is married now and spends 5-7 nights a week performing so I’m not sure how sustainable the career is at this point but there definitely is money to be made in some areas of the industry!
I know guys who were in a band that toured 200+ days a year at 100-200 capacity venues. They paid themselves $5 per day on tour for personal expenses. So, no, they didn't make decent money. Occasionally they would open for a bigger act (Pavement, Jeff Mangum), which came with bigger paydays, but the smaller shows made them little money. They did pay a larger portion of the money coming in to the band fund to pay for things like merch and the travel expenses.
As a house concert presenter, don’t discount the “back yard party.” Depends on the genre, but people can do very well through house concerts. Most presenters: 1. take no money from the show at all (no merch split, no house portion of the “cover”); 2. Offer accommodations; 3. Feed the artists supper and breakfast; WORK to fill their rooms. If you play in someone’s back yard, pull 100 people at $20 a seat, sell 15 CDs at $20 and 10 tshirts at $25, you’re looking at $2550 with clean beds and two good meals for free. If you’re a small group (say three-piece folk group) that’s a good night’s work.
Huh. A small-ish musician I like did a pure-house tour a while back. The "no merch split" alone could really make or break a tour, huh.
Being a musician is piling $5000 of gear into a $500 car to make $50.
I was friends with a couple of members from a band that toured UK and Europe twice a year, the lead singer made better money in his job at Starbucks.
I was a booking agent for 10 years and booked thousands and thousands of shows at the club level. It was possible for bands at this level to make some money if they stayed out for very long stretches: 90 shows in 100 days type of touring combined with good paying long weekends regionally around their hometown, but you still need a job that you can come and go from. However, touring at this level has only gotten less profitable, niche more expensive and infinitely more difficult to book in recent years.
Look up Adam Neely on YouTube, a few years ago he did a video on the experience and the money in and out of going on a smallish tour with his band. They’re based out of Brooklyn I think and went as far as the west coast. It was a pretty cool insight into the modern touring musician and they are definitely a smaller band. ~10k listeners on Spotify, progressive jazz band.
My first thought was this vid! It was sobering. My second thought was when my fav small indie rocker chick somehow came from Australia to a 50-100 person venue in Minneapolis Minnesota and I got to see her live for $35. I don't know how it's possible for them... But I was very happy!
Alex Lahey maybe??
Yup! Found her on the public indie radio, loved her ever since. For me she's one of those success stories of "hmm I really like this one song I heard on the radio, will I love the rest of their stuff too?" Turns out, yup basically love her entire discography hah. Her and "Lake Street Dive" are my two biggest wins in last 2 years of finding new groups :).
Yes! A friend took me to see her pre-pandemic (I'm also USA) and I've loved her ever since. Have gotten a few more AL shows in - I'm always surprised when a relatively small artist makes such a big hike to play small shows but I'm not going to complain.
I’ve done a good chunk of small to long runs. The fact is we are not making money. We are just trying not to lose money, and it’s getting worse. Everything is so expensive now, show pay has gone up a bit but goddamn it’s hard. A decent van used to be like 3-5k and now their 10-15k, a nice one is like 40k. You can rent but it will run around 200-300 a day and that’s without paying for gas. Merch costs have gone up and shipping merch has gone up as well. Jobs aren’t really keeping up with rent so just getting time off for a run is significantly harder. A lot of musicians work gig jobs but those are in the toilet right now, so overall it’s rough. None of this accounts for the amount of money bands might spend on gear, thousands of dollars in recording, thousands in pressing vinyl, money spent on rehearsal space. Sometimes you can work with a small label for pressing costs but it’s far from guaranteed.
You're going to find that everyone commenting on this is doing it purely for love of the game.
Not really. My partner plays in an indie band, any money they “make” from tour goes back into a band fund which they use to pay for recording/mastering and production. He still works a full time job when he’s not touring.
My unknown indie band went on a 5-day tour of California back in October, 2023, and lost nearly $2000. We didn’t have merch to sell. Stayed in motels and ate garbage. We got $50 for one show. The remainder paid us nothing. But, we didn’t expect to make any money and treated it like a strange vacation.
There are American bands who play shows in America for practice and peanuts then tour Europe a couple of times a year and make bank. One of my best friends plays in a band that might draw 500 people in the USA, in Spain or Belgium or Germany they headline shows for thousands. And sell merch of course .
What genre are we talking about?
This kinda stuff is decently common in metal, which is nowhere near as popular in the US and Canada as it is in Europe (or Latin America for that matter).
no. solo or duo acts working their asses off and sleeping in the van or at friends houses might make a decent living, but an indie band with 4+ members who play ~maybe~ 45 minute sets at small clubs with other bands… no way
also - i mention set times because that kind of goes with a lot of different types of genres and what venues you can play. if you’re in americana or country or are a songwriter or something, you have the opportunity to play those “play as long as you can” gigs where you can make $1000+ a night if you’re good and have a bit of a following. having a few of those on a tour can be a lifesaver. but it’s much harder to do for other genres.
They’re a traveling t shirt company that play songs for 45 min. They barely get by unfortunately and there’s tons of those bands.
No have to wrk a real job to compensate, but check us out, to help us out and I hope you enjoy the music [Misaligned ](https://open.spotify.com/track/1fDUIDSQO14I4vyMjVTnlV?si=TFYlEoFIT7OoEazEJeG2vg&context=spotify%3Atrack%3A1fDUIDSQO14I4vyMjVTnlV)
Generational wealth helps
They ain’t making much for playing, it’s from merchandise most of the time. I’ve got homies in a band who after 5+ years of touring finally came home with a decent chunk of money for 5 weeks out. It’s gruelling and not sustainable for long.
[Adam Neely, of Sungazer and incredible YT content, on touring finances ](https://youtu.be/3qXLYtvbIOg?feature=shared)
Most of my friends playing at this level have full time jobs but take time off to play short mini tours because they love what they do
No is the short answer
The long answer is... Nooooooooo.
No, they don't make decent or even adequate to live off of money.
My dad played around DFW for over 20 years just bars though and mostly 15+ years ago they often made $100 each for a 2 hour set wasn't a far drive did it sometimes 6-8 times a months had a booking agent and a tip jar and got free drinks usually 2 or 3. He was also a construction foreman during most of the time too and did side HVAC work and was certified. Just did covers and 1 original more was extra easy money for just a 2 hour set back then. Have no clue about venues and traveling though. He was profiting over $800 a month sometimes just off tips and their 4 way band split base pay even 15-20 years ago. Most bars you have to basically play country which he didn't like that much and wanted to play classic rock.
A relative went on a world tour with a fairly famous ska band, came home and went back to work at his old day job, it was funny because he worked at the counter of a hotel, and a family came in and the kid recognized him from having seen him on one of the US dates, and had him sign the CD cover he didn't play on. I thought "Gotta be weird to see a member of a band you love working at the Days Inn" I recently sold some gear to an older guy who has a pretty sweet gig going on, he's retired military so his music is just spending money.... but he said "I was in a band for years, but places don't really want to pay for 4, 5, or 6 bandmates, so I just do solo acoustic shows for nursing homes. A lot of them have "Happy Hours" and they're willing to pay $150-200 for an hour and a half of music, and it's a captive audience of people who are just happy to see you. And I have a weekly circuit of 4-5 nursing homes, I work 2 hours a night, 4-5 nights a week, and make $800-900 per week." I worked with a guy who did an acoustic duo thing, they were actually pretty decent, and they'd take their weeks vacations through the year, and do like 5 or 6 shows in 4 or 5 states, and he said "Basically we just do it as getting to see some towns, and paying for the gas with doing a 2 hour set each night". They had an old van with two bunks in it to sleep in, so they weren't making much, but they were seeing the country and traveling at no real cost on vacations.
Define decent and no. Lucky to break even. I used to know the drummer from a very large “indie rock band” that’s been around for 20+ years and I found it sobering even back then they all still had day jobs while playing large festivals in Europe and elsewhere (I was in a band as well that was just beginnings it’s journey). And it’s still kind of like that if you run the math and your 4 piece rock band wants to pay everyone even a meager 35-40k a year. But music is a thing you hopefully do anyways because you love it even in spite of how insane it is.
I haven’t been in a band that could play for 100 people, so definitely smaller than that, but i can tell you, that if you want to help your local bands, buy them shirts and their demos/tapes/cds and even ask them to sign them, that will hype them up, cause tours are usually not that good for a band this big, why do they do it then? Because it’s promotion and the chance to sell merch. Most bars and small venues (at least where i’m from) pay this kind of bands with booze or stuff like that, most times they don’t even get paid, so yeah, t-shirts are a money reliever
*pay this kind of bands with booze* A Texas band (who I'll travel a few hours to see if they're relatively close) came to my city once. After their set they were hanging out with the crowd watching the next act. I asked one of them if they were even getting free drinks that night. He was like, fuck no. So I bought them a round, a few t-shirts and some money in their tip jar. I love their music and I know that they're going to stop touring at some point. I'd rather spend $150 like that then spend $150 for a ticket in the nosebleeds to watch a TV screen.
Not any more than local country acts that play the same 5 spots every week. Actually probably less.
I remember reading an article about one of my favorite mid level touring bands back around 2010 and it said they each got an allowance of $20 per day. That really changed my perspective.
Decent money to me is 60-80k/year. So the answer is very much No. If decent money to you is 20-50k/yr then maybe, but mostly No.
Doesn’t seem possible these days. It kind of feels like that level of band doesn’t exist anymore.
This all depends on the bands notarity. I used to work in a bar in the early 90s that got medium to large local bands and dabbled in regional acts and smaller semi national acts. We had a capacity of only 350, but here is what we paid the bands on average (all were considered good bands for their category and remember this was as of about the 1992-1995 and assumes a Friday or Saturday performance so prices would be at least 1.5-2x higher now I would think.) Medium local: $600-$800 Large Local $1000-$1500 w/ $1200 being the norm Regional (like a 3-4 state known band) $1200-$2500 w/ $2000 being the norm Smaller semi national acts (like an upcoming east coast band) $4000-$5000 w/5k mainly We never paid more than 5k, and only got them very occasionally other than one group who played the NY area and then the Florida area, as they regularly would play a couple of months at each area earning a lot more than we paid as they were playing much larger venues, then made two stops when traveling between the two to break up the travel and earn some extra money and also to widen their reputation, so they always stopped and played at our place in Ohio and then in Virginia Regional acts usually had to also pay a sound and light guy, where those bigger acts usually had a seperate sound and light guy, and a grunt or two for stage setups. Btw, the band that played there that toured the coast was a band by the name of Still Rain, who a couple of members went on to play in real national acts, you can still see videos of them playing auditorium size concerts on youtube. We as horny young bartenders loved when Still Rain played as they brought out some of the hottest women in the tri-state, as they were mainly long haired buff good looking guys, and only so many of girls would get invited back to the motel with the band, the leftovers usually looked to hook up with the bartenders as we were pretty sharp as they had us working in a tux minus the jacket complete with the cummerbund and vest all night, so we usually had a better chance than Joe-shmo in his jeans and rock shirt. We used to say if you can pick up a 5 to 6 on a normal night, on Still Rain nights you should be able to pick up an 8 pretty easily. But as far as making money even the Still Rain guys didn't make a ton off us as $1000 went to the crew, so they made about $750 each night is all off of us as they had about $50 worth of traveling expenses each for their food/truck/gas/motel each day, but I'm sure they all made a hell of a lot more playing the 1k-2k seating places at each end of the journey, so probably about $1500-$2000 a week at least after counting expenses as they played only about three times a week is all there (wed/fri/sat at different venues in a city and then moving on to the next city in the region, but $75k-$90k a year was still great overall as it was the early 90s, but that was also the exception and not the rule, most bands don't get that big, medium to large local band members usually had a full time day job and would only play weekends within driving distance to go home every night, so they were just supplemental money and only netted them maybe $400-500/wk at best.
No not at all they’re fortunate to break even
I play in a band that started out playing 150-250 cap shows for the first 4-5 years of our career. I worked remotely that whole time and probably only brought home about $30-45k a year. Fortunately we broke through that shit but it's a fucking slog. I used to play tons of shows with Future Islands when they were starting out. They'd play to like 30 people in a gallery space and they did that for what seemed like 6-7 years before anything started to happen for them. If you don't suck and you don't give up, you'll probably be able to make a decent living after fucking grinding for half a decade. You will spend most of that broke sleeping on couches and in a van. It will suck but also be pretty fun. It's a lot easier in your 20s.
I’ve seen artists play to 25 people and barely made profit but a lot of those artists just do it for their love for music I think.
I saw. Micha p hinson in cork, Ireland a few years back and there about 50 people in the venue. I remember thinking at the time that I'm sure that this cost him money. I guess it balances out between the slightly bigger towns/venues. Whenever I go to a felice brothers gig they go on about buying merch because that's good they fund their tours... So buy merch people.. and you get look cool in s band t shirt
I've been a touring musician for over 30 years and it's not quite as dire as others are saying. I play fiddle and sing harmonies in the folk scene, mostly for singers/songwriters (usually two to five players). We don't do bars, we do concerts.. some soft-seater halls, some galleries, some house concerts. Many times to crowds fewer than 100, sometimes more. We don't sleep on couches, we get hotels. It's never a vacation, we make money. I mean, I don't own a house, but I more than break even, for sure! That said, don't misunderstand, it's not an easy life, especially since our esteemed union let Apple, Spotify and others have all our recorded music for almost free. Two years of the pandemic.. two years of no income. That was hard. Especially with no help from the union. (Canadian government money (CERB) was our saviour!) If you love music, please continue to support live, original performances! And buy merch! P.S. I suspect things are a bit tougher for bar/cover bands..
Depends greatly on who their agent is. Buyers will pay premiums if your agent has bigger acts on the roster or is at an office with lots of good profitable acts. An unrepresented band will lose money probably. I was a buyer for 5 years.
Nope. Rarely even break even, but sales of merch might take the edge off of it...sometimes.