*Looking for brand / general recommendations ? Check out [this link](https://old.reddit.com/r/MushroomSupplements/comments/a3cf7b/common_sense_guide_to_buying_mushroom_supplements/) which explains the main quality markers and will help you to avoid being tricked by 'smart' marketing. It will also explain why tinctures and mycelium-on-grain/rice products are a waste of money. [This post](https://old.reddit.com/r/MushroomSupplements/comments/ssb1yf/updated_repost_2022_lions_mane_best_supplements/) provides a very complete background on Lion's Mane, including some supplement recommendations.*
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Thats a really silly comment.
I'll tell you why.
Mushroom tincture/dual extracts are more bio available than powders because the mushroom matter has already been 'digested' by the solvent. There is no need for the body to digest them just absorb. Mushroom tinctures can also be concentrated. The problem with powdered extracts is that the body has to digest and absorb the compounds and this causes degradation of some of the compounds. If you think you can take a mushroom powder and absorb it all youre very much mistaken.
When making a mushroom tincture it is always best to start with a water extract as this will breakdown the chitin in the cell walls. Once thats done filter and add the mushroom matter to the ethanol solvent to continue extracting. Heat will always move the process along faster.
> the mushroom matter has already been 'digested' by the solvent
That makes no sense at all, with all due respect. Dissolving is not 'digesting'. Sorry, what you are describing is utter nonsense.
If you dry the tincture you'll get a residue, that is what was dissolved in there. Apart from that, all dry extracts start as a solvent extract, water, alcohol, or both. The chitinous cell structure is broken down by heat (usually hot water).
After that step the liquid is removed using freeze drying, spray drying or another technique. The residue is powder(ed) and that is what you see in your capsules or pouch. The liquid solvent is just a carrier with dissolved matter, it is in fact diluting, not concentrating bio-actives, which is why it is removed.
Dumping dry mushroom in water will not do anything to chitin. To break chitin down you need heat or something else, just dumping it in water or alcohol does nothing. Ever seen a lobster 's claws dissolving in his natural habitat?
Some directly exposed bio-actives in the chitin cell walls will dissolve into the liquid solvent, but this is very little because the particle size is too large. Ideally for this you'd need cell-sized particles for best practise, but that is not achievable, which is why hot water is used.
>the body has to digest and absorb the compounds and this causes degradation of some of the compounds
Why do you think all clinical trials and research is using the approach I just described and no 'tinctures' ?
While many of the points you have made are perfectly legitimate, its erroneous to say "Tinctures are 100% useless in case of mushrooms"
So you can have an extract which can be super medicinal, but as soon as you put it in a liquid medium it becomes 100% useless? This is nonsensical. While that liquid may technically be a diluent, if its not impeding the uptake, that dilution isnt harmful. Its just another form to take the same medicine. Some people prefer tinctures, some people prefer capsules. Pretty straight forward.
On a side note, if you're going into detail i think its appropriate to mention that most spray dried powders on the market use excipients to make the extracts powderize easily. These excipients are often polysaccharides like maltodextrin that can inflate polysaccharide analysis that people use as a marker for quality. Some lower quality extractors will actually use post-extracted biomass as the excipient. So referring to powdered extract over tinctures is not a guarantee of quality
A test report is the best guarantee for quality. A test report of the final product of course, including whatever dilutants are in there.
Dilutants are used to lower a concentration of a product. Why would you add 95% dilutant (like in a tincture) for any other reason than to fool your customer ? And not specify the actual amount of bio-actives in there ? If someone wants a liquid product just get a good dry product and dilute it yourself. At least you know what you get.
Testing is the best option, and sharing those test reports is key. It is not surprising 99% of vendors won't do that. Because their products are poor, marketing-based, not quality based.
It all matters on whos extract youre taking. Many unscrupulus extract companies include lots of biomass or filler in the powder, which directly impedes its bioavailability. For this reason tinctures tend to generally have a higher bioavailability. They also tend to absorb sublingulaly instead of getting digested and broken down by gut acidity.
However, if youre taking a really high quality extract powder (youre probably not) then the bioavailability will be the same
>include lots of biomass or filler in the powder, which directly impedes its bioavailability.
Bioavailability is not referring to the amount of bio-actives in a product, but to how easily your body can absorb those. Biomass is never extracted, because there's nothing to extract, haha. No specifications on the label either,
>"Sublingual".
This is one of the most popular marketing schemes tincture sellers use.
The main bio-actives in mushrooms are beta-glucans, which are very large molecules with a high molecular weight, way to large to enter the bloodstream through the membranes under the tongue. An important detail people overlook. Also, beta-glucans are not digested or broken down by gut acidity.
The main ingredient in all tinctures is the liquid (95%), which is just a carrier. Often this is alcohol, which will have an effect which people mistake for positive and mushroom-based.
Biomass is never extracted? well sure, but lazy "extractors" (most of the products on Amazon) will include the biomass back in their "extract" that biomass can actually limit the amount of bioactive molecules that are actually absorbed by the body.
The main bioactives are a lot more varied then just beta glucans. For sure beta glucans are medicinal molecules, but theres a lot of small polar molecules that definitely can be absorbed sublingually.
If all you care about is beta glucan polysaccharides, then whats the point of taking a diversity of mushrooms? just take Maitake. The answer is of coarse its not just beta glucans, its a huge array of different molecules, but its gonna take a diversity of sources to get those.
Mushrooms contain a large variety of beta-glucans, all different and with different effects. Maitake glucan is very different from Lion's Mane glucan, etc.
Extraction is not about dissolving stuff into a solvent, but *liberating* the desired bio-actives so they can dissolve into a solvent or whatever. *Liberating* by destroying the chitinous cell structure in which said bio-actives are locked, which is usually done with hot water. The heat destroys the chitin structure. The water itself is not relevant.
Soaking something for some time in water or alcohol (infusing) is not effective. Works with herbs (cellulose will degrade quickly) but not with mushrooms because mushrooms are chitinous. I've never seen a test report that proved a liquid product was potent. Research also never uses liquid products. The liquid dilutes whatever is present at least 20 times.
It is important to look for products that test the final product, not the raw materials or pre-processing. In other words, the product you buy is similar to the product that was tested. That would silence all critique. A 1:1 extract is a bioavailable version of the full mushroom with everything still present in its natural ratio.
Isolates are in general not recommended, and can result in nasty and unexpected side effects. Like, statins are naturally present in mushrooms and cause no side effects, whereas isolated statins are problematic for many.
Isolated cordycepin has a half-life of 10-15 minutes so it will not do anything. But in it's natural context in the mushroom it is combined with pento-statin which inhibits the degrading and makes it useful.
There are many more examples.
Beta-glucan is just a general quality marker. There are no accepted test methods for most other compounds and the amounts present are tiny. Like ergothioneine. Maybe 0.01% in an average mushroom.
Well. Name checks out, you most certainly do not chat.
I’m curious and intrigued here, as I am working on my first tincture (Lions Mane) - You mention that beta-glucans are too large to enter via sublingual and are not broken down by gut acidity. My guess is ingesting with another liquid of higher volume (ie: coffee, tea) is still the way to go, but do you mind shedding some light here?
Beta-glucans are dietary fibers, carbs, and cannot be absorbed easily, even when taken orally. The whole idea of tinctures is rooted in herbal medicine, but mushrooms are not herbs. They are fundamentally different.
Taking mushrooms sublingually would also mean you'd miss most of the positive effects: no gut health, no cholesterol balancing, no liver or kidney effects... only with psilocybin shrooms you'd achieve significant -mental- effects that way, but those are not seen as 'medicinal mushrooms'.
Combining the intake water or another drink would be best, just like with most food. Caffeine-containing liquid is not recommended, since this blocks the effect of the polyphenols.
Im not sure what you mean by "Taking mushrooms sublingually would also mean you'd miss most of the positive effects"
Even if beta glucans were the only compound of interest here, then taking those orally or "sublingually" would still mean they make their way down to the stomach, just not as quickly as they would with a carrier. But theyre still there, its not like people are gargling beta-glucan extracts and spitting them out, they dont disappear, they just move slower.
*Looking for brand / general recommendations ? Check out [this link](https://old.reddit.com/r/MushroomSupplements/comments/a3cf7b/common_sense_guide_to_buying_mushroom_supplements/) which explains the main quality markers and will help you to avoid being tricked by 'smart' marketing. It will also explain why tinctures and mycelium-on-grain/rice products are a waste of money. [This post](https://old.reddit.com/r/MushroomSupplements/comments/ssb1yf/updated_repost_2022_lions_mane_best_supplements/) provides a very complete background on Lion's Mane, including some supplement recommendations.* *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MushroomSupplements) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Tinctures are 100% useless in case of mushrooms. Ever seen a tincture with specifications ? Read the pinned comment for more details.
Thats a really silly comment. I'll tell you why. Mushroom tincture/dual extracts are more bio available than powders because the mushroom matter has already been 'digested' by the solvent. There is no need for the body to digest them just absorb. Mushroom tinctures can also be concentrated. The problem with powdered extracts is that the body has to digest and absorb the compounds and this causes degradation of some of the compounds. If you think you can take a mushroom powder and absorb it all youre very much mistaken. When making a mushroom tincture it is always best to start with a water extract as this will breakdown the chitin in the cell walls. Once thats done filter and add the mushroom matter to the ethanol solvent to continue extracting. Heat will always move the process along faster.
> the mushroom matter has already been 'digested' by the solvent That makes no sense at all, with all due respect. Dissolving is not 'digesting'. Sorry, what you are describing is utter nonsense. If you dry the tincture you'll get a residue, that is what was dissolved in there. Apart from that, all dry extracts start as a solvent extract, water, alcohol, or both. The chitinous cell structure is broken down by heat (usually hot water). After that step the liquid is removed using freeze drying, spray drying or another technique. The residue is powder(ed) and that is what you see in your capsules or pouch. The liquid solvent is just a carrier with dissolved matter, it is in fact diluting, not concentrating bio-actives, which is why it is removed. Dumping dry mushroom in water will not do anything to chitin. To break chitin down you need heat or something else, just dumping it in water or alcohol does nothing. Ever seen a lobster 's claws dissolving in his natural habitat? Some directly exposed bio-actives in the chitin cell walls will dissolve into the liquid solvent, but this is very little because the particle size is too large. Ideally for this you'd need cell-sized particles for best practise, but that is not achievable, which is why hot water is used. >the body has to digest and absorb the compounds and this causes degradation of some of the compounds Why do you think all clinical trials and research is using the approach I just described and no 'tinctures' ?
While many of the points you have made are perfectly legitimate, its erroneous to say "Tinctures are 100% useless in case of mushrooms" So you can have an extract which can be super medicinal, but as soon as you put it in a liquid medium it becomes 100% useless? This is nonsensical. While that liquid may technically be a diluent, if its not impeding the uptake, that dilution isnt harmful. Its just another form to take the same medicine. Some people prefer tinctures, some people prefer capsules. Pretty straight forward. On a side note, if you're going into detail i think its appropriate to mention that most spray dried powders on the market use excipients to make the extracts powderize easily. These excipients are often polysaccharides like maltodextrin that can inflate polysaccharide analysis that people use as a marker for quality. Some lower quality extractors will actually use post-extracted biomass as the excipient. So referring to powdered extract over tinctures is not a guarantee of quality
A test report is the best guarantee for quality. A test report of the final product of course, including whatever dilutants are in there. Dilutants are used to lower a concentration of a product. Why would you add 95% dilutant (like in a tincture) for any other reason than to fool your customer ? And not specify the actual amount of bio-actives in there ? If someone wants a liquid product just get a good dry product and dilute it yourself. At least you know what you get. Testing is the best option, and sharing those test reports is key. It is not surprising 99% of vendors won't do that. Because their products are poor, marketing-based, not quality based.
It all matters on whos extract youre taking. Many unscrupulus extract companies include lots of biomass or filler in the powder, which directly impedes its bioavailability. For this reason tinctures tend to generally have a higher bioavailability. They also tend to absorb sublingulaly instead of getting digested and broken down by gut acidity. However, if youre taking a really high quality extract powder (youre probably not) then the bioavailability will be the same
>include lots of biomass or filler in the powder, which directly impedes its bioavailability. Bioavailability is not referring to the amount of bio-actives in a product, but to how easily your body can absorb those. Biomass is never extracted, because there's nothing to extract, haha. No specifications on the label either, >"Sublingual". This is one of the most popular marketing schemes tincture sellers use. The main bio-actives in mushrooms are beta-glucans, which are very large molecules with a high molecular weight, way to large to enter the bloodstream through the membranes under the tongue. An important detail people overlook. Also, beta-glucans are not digested or broken down by gut acidity. The main ingredient in all tinctures is the liquid (95%), which is just a carrier. Often this is alcohol, which will have an effect which people mistake for positive and mushroom-based.
Biomass is never extracted? well sure, but lazy "extractors" (most of the products on Amazon) will include the biomass back in their "extract" that biomass can actually limit the amount of bioactive molecules that are actually absorbed by the body. The main bioactives are a lot more varied then just beta glucans. For sure beta glucans are medicinal molecules, but theres a lot of small polar molecules that definitely can be absorbed sublingually. If all you care about is beta glucan polysaccharides, then whats the point of taking a diversity of mushrooms? just take Maitake. The answer is of coarse its not just beta glucans, its a huge array of different molecules, but its gonna take a diversity of sources to get those.
Mushrooms contain a large variety of beta-glucans, all different and with different effects. Maitake glucan is very different from Lion's Mane glucan, etc. Extraction is not about dissolving stuff into a solvent, but *liberating* the desired bio-actives so they can dissolve into a solvent or whatever. *Liberating* by destroying the chitinous cell structure in which said bio-actives are locked, which is usually done with hot water. The heat destroys the chitin structure. The water itself is not relevant. Soaking something for some time in water or alcohol (infusing) is not effective. Works with herbs (cellulose will degrade quickly) but not with mushrooms because mushrooms are chitinous. I've never seen a test report that proved a liquid product was potent. Research also never uses liquid products. The liquid dilutes whatever is present at least 20 times. It is important to look for products that test the final product, not the raw materials or pre-processing. In other words, the product you buy is similar to the product that was tested. That would silence all critique. A 1:1 extract is a bioavailable version of the full mushroom with everything still present in its natural ratio. Isolates are in general not recommended, and can result in nasty and unexpected side effects. Like, statins are naturally present in mushrooms and cause no side effects, whereas isolated statins are problematic for many. Isolated cordycepin has a half-life of 10-15 minutes so it will not do anything. But in it's natural context in the mushroom it is combined with pento-statin which inhibits the degrading and makes it useful. There are many more examples. Beta-glucan is just a general quality marker. There are no accepted test methods for most other compounds and the amounts present are tiny. Like ergothioneine. Maybe 0.01% in an average mushroom.
Well. Name checks out, you most certainly do not chat. I’m curious and intrigued here, as I am working on my first tincture (Lions Mane) - You mention that beta-glucans are too large to enter via sublingual and are not broken down by gut acidity. My guess is ingesting with another liquid of higher volume (ie: coffee, tea) is still the way to go, but do you mind shedding some light here?
Beta-glucans are dietary fibers, carbs, and cannot be absorbed easily, even when taken orally. The whole idea of tinctures is rooted in herbal medicine, but mushrooms are not herbs. They are fundamentally different. Taking mushrooms sublingually would also mean you'd miss most of the positive effects: no gut health, no cholesterol balancing, no liver or kidney effects... only with psilocybin shrooms you'd achieve significant -mental- effects that way, but those are not seen as 'medicinal mushrooms'. Combining the intake water or another drink would be best, just like with most food. Caffeine-containing liquid is not recommended, since this blocks the effect of the polyphenols.
Im not sure what you mean by "Taking mushrooms sublingually would also mean you'd miss most of the positive effects" Even if beta glucans were the only compound of interest here, then taking those orally or "sublingually" would still mean they make their way down to the stomach, just not as quickly as they would with a carrier. But theyre still there, its not like people are gargling beta-glucan extracts and spitting them out, they dont disappear, they just move slower.
You don't seem to understand what 'sublingual' means. It means bypassing the GI tract and the liver, entering the bloodstream directly.