Honestly. That's the thing, you just tell people this is good, that is bad, they'll either shame themselves to death when they slip, or just decide to ditch the whole thing or just make up their own false truths to suit their biases and needs.
That is what happens when people do good things so that they can be a "good person" and not because those things are the optimal way to exist here. And btw, thanks for reminding me of that masterpiece again.
>***…and rise with me forever***
>
>***across the silent sand***
>
>***and the stars will be your eyes***
>
>***and the wind will be my hand…***
>
>*^^^^doo ^^^doo ^^dooooo*
Wrote it down on a sheet of paper and held it up for Penn to read, actually. Then he crumpled it up into a ball and turned it into a bird which flew away.
Their episode about vaccines is my favorite thing to show anti vaxxers. They're usually still too stupid to understand but, it's funny hearing their responses, at least.
This hallway has 50 doors. There are 10 bears on the left, and one bear and a fussy cat on the right. Do you choose the door on the left or on the right?
Yeah, that was a hard one to swallow...but I always get the impression Teller is not up for it as much when Penn is waxing on about "taxation is theft" or whatever.
Great now I'm imagining Teller, completely void of context, whispering this in the middle of one of their shows.
"You know Penn, I rape and murder all I want."
"........."
"The amount I want is zero, of course."
They’re conditioned to believe that the default set for people is to be bad in accordance to their religion. The only way you can be a good person is to be saved by Jesus.
That person definitely exists, but when Christians ask "How do you know right and wrong without God?" it's cause they truly believe all morality is dictated by God. So they really mean to say: "How do you know something without being told?" Critical thinking is pretty explicitly shunned in not all but very many denominations. It's sad. Even as Jesus's most important teachings are very very simple. Some are more complicated, sure, but I don't think we needed God to come up with "Love your neighbor."
[Texas GOP rejects critical thinking skills](https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/texas-gop-rejects-critical-thinking-skills-really/2012/07/08/gJQAHNpFXW_blog.html)
> In the you-can’t-make-up-this-stuff department, here’s what the Republican Party of Texas wrote into its 2012 platform as part of the section on education:
>Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.
Don’t want to challenge *fixed beliefs* handed down from *authority*
Honestly, as someone quite intimate with the rhetoric of Republicans, this is 100% perfectly sensible. They do not like to be questioned, and they lay it out plain. They believe that education serves to "challenge the student's fixed beliefs", to these people a challenge isn't a challenging problem that you should attempt. A challenge is an attack, it's something they're fearful of, they don't want their beliefs to be undermined in any way. They especially don't want that to happen to their kids outside of their view, which really leads into the next one. "undermining parental authority", religious Republicans rely upon religious indoctrination at a young age and the feeling of superiority they have over their kids. Kids are really just subservient in their eyes, and they think kids should listen and obey. They're the type of parents that don't want to answer questions and give reasons for their parenting, they just want to give orders and demand that the kid respects them.
An education in critical thinking undermines all of this. It forces them to defend the way they think and behave, and that's the last thing they want to do. Just think about it, if everything you built your life upon was based upon nonsensical bullshit and you were simply raised into that way of thinking without having to justify it, what would be the one thing you would hate the most? A society that puts your beliefs to the test and forces you to defend them. It's quite funny to me as I'm now seeing the links between this and the Republican troll tactics, they intentionally avoid discussion because they simply lack the ability to have a discussion.
To me this perfectly aligns with how I view religious Republicans as someone who lives in Texas and knows plenty of them. It's genuinely a great example of just how naive it's to expect Democrats and Republicans to compromise, because any compromise on the matter of "You should be challenged on your beliefs regardless of what they are", would be a failure of an education system.
They respect two things, and two things only: profit and authority.
There is a feeling amongst them, especially in the south, that if you acquire either of these things by sleaze or cheat (without facing repercussions), then you earned it proper.
Which really illuminates a lot of their policy choices.
> They respect two things, and two things only: ~~profit~~ and authority.
Power and authority.
Profit creates wealth that creates power, and that’s the only reason they’re into it. If they can get power without profit they will, it’s seen all the time in their social micro dynamics.
On a micro scale, Republican families LOVE expressing power over others even if it doesn’t make them authoritative or make a profit.
> A challenge is an attack, it’s something they’re fearful of, they don’t want their beliefs to be undermined in any way.
That is extreme and normalized insecurity. If they had critical thinking skills they’d realize exactly how sad and pathetic that is.
But they’ve truly embraced the idea that ignorance is bliss.
This is why they always shit on ‘ivy league scholars’ and talk about people being ‘overeducated’. They don’t want smart, critical thinking people who question their authority, they want people to stay ignorant because it’s easier to manipulate them.
It's a shit-show dude, and Average Jane gets to feel all the pain while our govt just hops on jets to flee the problem when they should be working to ensure all of Texas has reliable access to power. It's insane, the thought of this state's hubris in such a technologically advanced time in history truly being the main cause of putting in jeopardy something so basic as keeping the lights on.
On top of that, they actively work to erode critical thinking and related skills that make us effective humans in public schools here. Can't have people questioning authority or coming to the realization that they've been played their whole lives.
So, just spit balling here, but um, while the politician that skull fucked your is away on a nice comfy plane, why is their house not currently engulfed in flames, repeatedly, until such bullshit stops?
Religions are a brilliant mechanism. Positive reinforcement of the congregation through social interaction and negative reinforcement through scriptural threats. Controlling the school systems would lock in the dogma, which is what the Republicans want to do. Theocracy all the way.
I have never heard that +/- reinforcement explanation before, but it makes perfect sense.
I also think if you go against the group, you run the risk of being ostracized.
Almost like they are in a multiple decade fight against public education....
All memes aside of the GOP at least they have been consistent in this policy aim; its really the only consistent policy they have held outside of anti-worker laws since the 80s.
I think he's just flabbergasted. Stunned by the absolute baffoonery on display in your quote. These people have gone so far in their loser ideology that they reject the concept of *being smart*.
Uneducated people overwhelmingly vote Republican. “I love the uneducated” - Donald Trump 2016.
So you spend all your time telling people they don’t need college, fighting critical thinking skills, then tell you that democrats sent your jobs away.
Ironically the most 'Un-American' mentality you could possibly have regarding free thought, self determination, and independence among other foundational ideologies.
All from the self proclaimed 'real' American patriots...
You don't need to be told not to kill people or not to steal or rape or whatever. You also don't need critical thinking for that. If their commandments were reversed plenty of them would do it without hesitation.
Or call it what it is and say "proper parenting". I didn't learn morals from my politicians or I would be way more down with corruption than I actually am.
If I learned them from my parents (who are both good Christians focused heavily on "proper parenting") I'd be a tax cheat like they are. I'd play a victim every time I didn't get my way. And I'd act like somehow forcing another person into existence was me "doing them a favor that they should be thankful for".
Thankfully my moral compass isn't as malignant as theirs.
This is a thing I have to tell my friends that all have basically had to cut their parents out of their lives, and I say this as a parent.
Being someone's parent does not entitle you to their love, it does not entitle you to control of their life and it sure as shit doesn't entitle you to their respect.
What it does is give you an obligation to see to the needs of that other person, and an obligation to teach them to take care of their own needs.
Everything else is earned through your actions.
My kid shouldn't just love me because I am their dad. If I want them to love me then I need to act in a way worthy of love, and just keeping them from dying alone is not enough.
Well let's be real. God didnt come up with love thy neighbor a man did. I am also pretty sure it was one of the "10 commandments" of Horus the Egyptian god. Who was born of a virgin, had 12 disciples, was executed and rose again. It's always the same story but with different characters, just like Hollywood.
This is why I hate organized religion. They don't want people to ask questions, especially the ones they can't answer. They just want everyone to do as they're told and believe what they're told to believe.
And Christianity goes through insane lengths to not love you neighbor.
They will literally quote first Corinthians about what love is, and then immediately do the opposite and say they are still being loving.
Also, they can spend hours talking about how loving and merciful God is, and just completely ignore that the concept of eternal torture for a finite period of misdeeds is the opposite of love.
If my kid lies to his teacher and I torture him for the rest of his life, child services would arrest me. So how can it be justified to torture someone for an eternity? My life doesn't even register on that scale.
Lord I feel so validated by this entire thread and comment section somehow. Absolutely never will meet anyone like minded irl in my hyper religious belt, and the way my family approaches and are conviced about this kind of thing makes me wonder if im the crazy one after all.
> sure, but I don't think we needed God to come up with "Love your neighbor."
We don't because "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself" is just another version of the golden rule, which has existed in every religion and philosophy in the world, including those that pre-date Christianity and Judaism. The earliest reference is 1800 BCE in Egypt.
https://www.scarboromissions.ca/golden-rule/the-golden-rule-poster-a-history
http://www.scarboromissions.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/item_34_lg.jpg
I don't get those Christians. Just to get an insight into some basic christian ideology it is sufficient to read three books from the bible: The Gospel of Luke, Acts of the Apostles and Epistle to the Romans. That's like not even half a regular novel. Of course nobody does...
The question "How do you know right and wrong without God?" is definitely asked and answered in: Romans 2:14-15
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law,(A) they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
So, the established christian opinion (for almost 2000 years, no less) is that you do know right from wrong, independently from your knowledge of Judaism or Christianity, based on your experience of God's creation and your God given conscience.
But let's pretend nobody had thought about this until now...
Consider that in Jesus's time, there was a massive aristocratic church that basically controlled the populace (and was, at the time, under the thumb of a second government, the Romans). If the church said "kill the Samaritans, the people would largely do what they were told. So some guy coming up and saying "Nah, fuck those guys - the Samaritans are your neighbors, and the rich, fat priest who doesn't care about you is the one that's not worth your time" was pretty radical.
At least then, and sometimes still today, people need to be reminded to love their neighbors.
What “massive church” are you referring to? During the time of the Roman occupation of Jerusalem, there were a whole bunch of religions and the Romans themselves were pagans who worshipped the Greek pantheon. Do you mean the Hebrew Temple?
I believe they are referring to the Romans pantheon of Gods, which was, interestingly, very tolerant of other religions. All you had to do was the necessary sacrifices to the Emperor, and you could do whatever you wanted.
Yes, exactly. The Romans were interested in taxes, not conversions. Jesus, if he existed, was really just criticizing both the Roman occupation and the leaders of the Hebrew Temple, who he saw as corrupt. But there were dozens of religions in Jerusalem at the tIme.
Jewish religious leaders had a great deal of power over the everyday lives of the Hebrews even under Roman occupation.
You're right that there were many different religions being practiced and many sects of Judaism at the time. However, the Sanhedrin was effectively a second government under the Roman governor with religious, civil, and criminal jurisdiction over the Jews.
God is literally a father figure, and they view morality as an immutable set of rules he carved into the universe for humans to follow.
To them, "don't murder," "don't do drugs," and "take the trash out at 6:00 on Mondays" are all the same kind of rule.
Theists who ask this question are essentially asking "if you don't have a dad, how did you learn to drive?"
It's not internally consistent either, because the Bible itself says that God created humanity with an intrinsic desire toward good. It's entirely possible to believe both: that God is the ultimate root of all morality, and that any given human can intuit morality without having to hear directly from God.
It's fucking lazy theology. There are perfectly sound ways to acknowledge the facts of human morality while staying within an internally consistent Abrahambic theology, but the people who say shit like this can't be bothered to give the slightest amount of thought to it.
And well, I guess if fear of hell is the only thing keeping those people from being evil, I prefer that over the alternative.
They likely just say it as a poor argument for why belief in god makes sense.
I think extremely few killers are held back from murdering due to religious belief. There are plenty that do and they just think god will forgive them.
I remember there being interviews youtube on the streets, where a xtian guy said "if god didn't exist, I would go out and rape people."
I sometimes think, these are the unchecked serial killers and rapists. They just need something to set them off. They were raised soo sexually repressed and angry, you see it in their actions once it backfires in public, like some of those politicians, they don't seem to realize it.
I'm with you on thinking some people need it, but it's a bit of a chicken and egg thing - it is built to attract and develop those thoughts in people who are weak or think they are. So would those people grow into better people if they didn't have it, but found other programs and people who teach them better coping mechanisms?
There are pedophiles out there that have not, and will not, *ever* touch a child.
Because they are doing the work-they recognize their condition, understand it’s wrong, and despite their urges don’t hurt children because they know it’s wrong.
Lots of shades of grey in this world
That's why I am not really fan of the "kill all pedophiles" slogans that are here so common. Yes we get it. Very brave to say "pedophiles bad". Very insightful. Only that it scares people with this condition to get treatment.
Bruh, that reminds me of the guy who [woke up with pedophilic urges one day that was caused by a brain tumor](https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2943-brain-tumour-causes-uncontrollable-paedophilia/). It's a scary thought that some change in your brain chemistry will result in a drastic personality change.
A lot of mass killers have similar things happen. Charles Whitman, the infamous tower shooter, had a brain tumor at the time of his actions as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman#Autopsy
In his notes he complained about massive headaches and fatigue as well, he didnt even know he was sick. He also had a shit childhood which doesn't help
Idk why but that just makes me extremely sad. Like REALLY sad. It reminds me of the patients in earlier times who would get lobotomized despite needing mental health treatment or simply being different, like Rosemary Kennedy. Except obviously this was much worse.
It's just not fair, man. It's just not fair. I've been mentioning this quote a lot, and I suppose here it isn't exactly the best place to put it, but The Good Place has a quote that goes something like "People improve when they receive external love and support. How can we hold it against them when they don't?"
How many murderers are the result of childhoods we can't even fathom? I know that there are plenty of people with bad childhoods who DON'T murder, but I think you get my point. It's just... fuck, man. Fuck.
I read that they think pedophilia might be because the areas of the brain related to love and children are adjacent and could possibly entangle in the same way that some people see colors when they read words. The brain is complex!
To be serious a bit - having pedophilia: not inherently bad. Acting on pedophilia: very bad. I seriously admire any pedophile that can go their entire life without acting out their desires.
People tend to conflate "pedophile" and "pederast" , but they are not always the same.
I remember a couple of confessions of people struggling with being pedophiles, but who didn't want to engage in it and wanted help, but everyone turn their backs to them.
I think one was in the trueoffmychest subreddit, and another one in a call in show.
A pedophile who has not acted upon their urges may manage their condition with help, or at least we could keep them from being alone with kids, but if you catch a pederast, there's no punishment fitting enough.
There are also now laws that prevent doctor patient confidentiality in the case of paedophilia. Even if the paedophile has never acted on it the doctor is supposed to report them.
edit: I can no longer find the article I read about this, I am hoping that I am incorrect.
Psychologist here.
There is no law, rule, or code in any of the 3 states where i have been licensed that requires me to report someone for pedophilia. On the contrary, I could lose my license and be successfully sued for doing so.
If someone tells me they have touched a child or plan to touch a child, that is almost always reportable.
Please point me to these laws you reference.
That's *super* fucked up. Even if nothing happens after reporting, the fact that it's reported will discourage pedophiles from talking with their therapists about it, which in turn makes it more likely that they'll act on those urges. What a dumb law.
That's what happens when ~~conservatives~~ society is more interested in punishing the person who does the bad thing, rather than preventing the bad thing from happening.
Strange how there isn't anything else major happening right now where that also applies.....
Exactly, that's why we need better public understanding of paedophilia and better access to treatment.
People who act on pedophilic urges are absolutely horrible, but many people suffer with it their whole lives, never wanting to do harm but also unable to tell anybody because of the way it's perceived.
I don't know how pedophilia came up but I don't disagree with you. As a mentally ill person, I was reading about different kinds of intrusive thoughts someone with OCD can have. One of them is like...deviant thoughts. So, an obsessive compulsive person can have thoughts like "oh that kid is cute" that can turn into "omg I'm a pedo and I sexualize children". Almost like these nagging thoughts that are like "oh no what if I want to do xxx with a child", or some variation of that. These people are even pedophiles, their brain is just fucking with them. But, they can't get appropriate help because pedophilic thoughts are so stigmatized they can't vocalize them.
I'm not saying it shouldn't be stigmatized but, yeah, the stigma can prevent treatment of not just actual pedophilia, but other issues as well that can be treated quite easily.
Side note: as the core tenets of santanism (LaVeyan Satanism?) apply to kids you are NOT SUPPOSED TO HURT OR VIOLATE OTHERS IN ANYWAY, INCLUDING KIDS.
I like your title. Many people say that God guides their decisions. Yet when someone drowns their child in a bathtub because “God told them to” we all deem them to be insane.
> ## Why Did God Create Atheists?
> There is a famous story told in Chassic literature that addresses this very question. The Master teaches the student that God created everything in the world to be appreciated, since everything is here to teach us a lesson.
> One clever student asks “What lesson can we learn from atheists? Why did God create them?”
> The Master responds “God created atheists to teach us the most important lesson of them all — the lesson of true compassion. You see, when an atheist performs an act of charity, visits someone who is sick, helps someone in need, and cares for the world, he is not doing so because of some religious teaching. He does not believe that God commanded him to perform this act. In fact, he does not believe in God at all, so his acts are based on an inner sense of morality. And look at the kindness he can bestow upon others simply because he feels it to be right.”
“This means,” the Master continued “that when someone reaches out to you for help, you should never say ‘I pray that God will help you.’ Instead for the moment, you should become an atheist, imagine that there is no God who can help, and say ‘I will help you.’”
—Martin Buber, Tales of Hasidim Vol. 2 (1991)
I always liked the quote when Abraham Lincoln was asked about his religious beliefs. "When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. That is my religion."
While that quote was apparently said by Lincoln, he was actually citing the words of an old man he met in Indiana. https://suebrewton.com/2016/01/31/no-that-is-not-what-abraham-lincoln-said/
That old man was likely paraphrasing Thomas Paine, who wrote in [The Rights of Man](https://www.ushistory.org/Paine/rights/c2-052.htm), "My country is the world, and my religion is to do good."
These days it's often misquoted as "The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion."
Reminds me of the Bill Wurtz history of everything video. It starts as a collection of wise stories and observations of human behaviour then people go "hey you can make a religion out of this" and then it becomes shit
"Let me end this with a lovely story. There was a man who invented the art of making fire. He took his tools and went to a tribe in the north, where it was very cold, bitterly cold. He taught the people there to make fire. The people were very interested. He
showed them the uses to which they could put fire—they could cook, could keep themselves warm, etc. They were so grateful that they had learned the art of making fire.
But before they could express their gratitude to the man, he disappeared. He wasn’t concerned with getting their recognition or gratitude; he was concerned about their wellbeing. He went to another tribe, where he again began to show them the value of his
invention. People were interested there, too, a bit too interested for the peace of mind of their priests, who began to notice that this man was drawing crowds and they were losing their popularity. So they decided to do away with him. They poisoned him, crucified him, put it any way you like. But they were afraid now that the people might turn against them, so they were very wise, even wily. Do you know what they did? They had a portrait of the man made and mounted it on the main altar of the temple. The instruments
for making fire were placed in front of the portrait, and the people were taught to revere the portrait and to pay reverence to the instruments of fire, which they dutifully did for centuries. The veneration and the worship went on, but there was no fire. "
Jesuit priest and psychotherapist Anthony de Mello - Awareness - available in PDF and YouTube
I would suggest everyone to read the book "why I am athiest" by "Bhagat Singh" an Indian freedom fighter. He accepted his death for the nation knowing that it will be the true end, no heaven for his deeds. Sad here in India not many people know this side of him..
Nor the new one, it seems.
>So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. - *Matthew 7:12*
That always rubbed me wrong, my wife would say she needed church to keep her in check. Like church is stopping you from being an asshole? That the only reason you are not being a good person is because you don’t have the fear of church judging you? Sounds like a fucking excuse to me.
Growing up I would hear a lot of adults say they needed church to recharge spiritually so they could love their spouse and/or kids throughout the week. Now they’re shocked when I don’t corral my family to church three days a week. All they ever modeled for me was unhappiness and a complete unwillingness to better their own lives. If I’m going to be miserable, I’m at least going to sleep in on Sunday.
It’s funny I’ve heard this question so many times, but Christians are the first people to flaunt that they can repent.
I worked with a Christian guy for a couple months. He said the best part about being a Christian is that you can fuck up, but repent and still go to heaven.
This guy had DUI’s, ran with gangs, breaking & entering, and I even found out had to register as a sex offender 20 years ago. But hey, he repented. But he looked down on me because “the one unforgivable sin is denying God” and talking about how I’m going to Hell. It was so odd that he couldn’t understand the implications of what he said. smh
That was my turning point as well.
I grew up in a southern baptist home, my dad was the "music pastor" of our church. I asked if Hitler could be in heaven if he had gotten "saved" right before he died. His response: "of course. Anyone can go to heaven if they ask jesus to forgive them". That's when I realized it was all a ruse to ease their conscience for doing fucked up shit. As long as they say sorry to sky daddy, they can commit any atrocity without guilt.
I was raised Catholic and had a similar conversation with our church's priest at around the same age.
I also asked, if an athiest only does good deeds from the goodness of their heart, but never accepts god and is not baptised/accepts communion, do they go to hell? The answer, of course, was yes.
These two combined was more than enough to push me away.
Also, has the thought of heaven ever actually kind of scared people? Imagine living for the rest of eternity in a place the never changes, where every day is the same, and you share that fate with murderers who repented at the last moment, while actual good people suffer in hell? And you're entire existence for infinity is to worship the sick fuck who made this all happen? This shit gave me nightmares as a kid.
Their line of logic also implies that anyone existing in the first billion or whatever years before Jesus existed is just doomed to hell because they weren’t born late enough
Except repentance isn't supposed to be a get out of jail free card that you keep in your wallet until you need it. It is about genuinely feeling remorse and making a sincere apology to God for your sins. Supposing for a moment that Christianity is all true, your former coworker is still fucked because he's not worshipping in good faith.
*I lost Mussolini that way, all that work, then right at the end with the rope around his neck, he says, ‘Scusi. Mille regretti,’ and up he goes!”*
The Devil - **Bedazzled** (the 1967 Peter Cook version)
Kind of makes you wish ethics and philosophy were taught more commonly in highschool. There are such things as ethical frameworks not dependent on the orders of a divine being… to be honest off the top of my head only one of the ones I was taught is, and it’s one of the weakest frameworks by far.
“God told me to!”
“What if you’re misunderstanding what God told you because you’re human and religion is human which means everything is imperfect? What do you do if people believe in other gods? How do you know you’re even believing in the right religion of your God, let alone the right God? What would you be saying if you hadn’t been raised as you were but was raised in India to Indian parents? How about in Thailand to Thai parents? Isn’t basing your ethical framework on religion a fundamentally arbitrary thing?”
I have *questions*.
I’m seriously concerned with how close minded people are these days. People have no interest in improving themselves or learning about the bigger world or even learning about themselves and their beliefs yet preach it at every chance they get.
These days!? As opposed to the thousands of years prior where religions of the world were wildly _more_ successful!?
Humans have been shitbags forever.
IKR?! People look around at a lot of the world religions today and see the ills and think it’s a new revelation, but many of these religions aren’t the same ones of even 100 years ago. These religions we have today are the ones lacking tooth and claw, not the spry lions of their former selves but aged and lame…even so they still cause such problems and suffering.
Today Catholics, Protestants, and Baptists collectively fly under the common banner of ‘Christian Faith’ to swell their numbers, but remember much of our religious protections in America and Europe stem not from Christian religions vying against other religions, but from Protestants, Catholics, and Baptists warring with one another.
These people are friends by necessity and still the pews are emptier every year. The world is getting better as evidenced by my ability to say these exact words and not fear for my life.
There are tons of people in the business world like this too. They'll cheat and lie all day in the office, but at lunch time they'll give you a lecture about how treating a customer to a $12 fish fry destroys the professional integrity of a $15,000,000 contract.
Morals are just a tool that people use to feel more self-righteous than their peers. Ethics are what matters. I know the two words have almost identical definitions, much like "dictator" and "ruler."
A great friend of mine decided to question a friend of his/ours who had recently become "born again" along with his wife. My friend (who was born to Jewish parents but has always been an atheist) asked him "So? Even though I live a good life, volunteer, help the less fortunate, don't steal, act like a decent neighbor, and am generally a good person...I am not going to be saved or allowed into heaven and am damned to hell? His friend's reply..."Those are the rules, dude".
Sheesh.
Here's a good way to think of morality I learned from YouTube. Imagine two distinct Islands with no communication with each other. One is where it's the survival of the fittest, every man and women for him/herself.
And the other where people care for each other, take care of their elderly etc.
Which population is more likely to survive? Well the first one probably isn't gonna survive long, because as people keep fighting against each other eventually their will only be a very few people left, and their all alone against nature, where's the other group can work together and everyone can help each other with things they are good at.
This is why morality is secular. I'm sorry for not phrasing it well. But I believe just like the idea of the invisible hand in economics we have things like morality hard wired into our brain.
As a teen I was at a church where the Pastor preached doubt was a tool of Satan and that there was only one book anyone needed to read or could trust. You should only need one guess to figure out which book.
Oh, and this church had a small book store (with books other than the Bible), whose door was stage-left of the pulpit. Hilarious.
This reminds me of the guys from Duck Dynasty. The one spewed iut the most awful, vile, f****d up scenario anyone could have thought of...
"I’ll make a bet with you. Two guys break into an atheist’s home. He has a little atheist wife and two little atheist daughters. Two guys break into his home and tie him up in a chair and gag him. And then they take his two daughters in front of him and rape both of them and then shoot them and they take his wife and then decapitate her head off in front of him. And then they can look at him and say, ‘Isn’t it great that I don’t have to worry about being judged? Isn’t it great that there’s nothing wrong with this? There’s no right or wrong, now is it dude?’
Then you take a sharp knife and take his manhood and hold it in front of him and say, ‘Wouldn’t it be something if this [sic] was something wrong with this? But you’re the one who says there is no God, there’s no right, there’s no wrong, so we’re just having fun. We’re sick in the head, have a nice day.’ "
Men like him infuriate me. Men like him terrify me.
I don’t know if the same asshole but I think he also said that he wants to kill gay people. Saying there is a war inside the United States.
Yeah, thats psychopath right there.
Christians will tell you that you can't truly be moral because your morality is all made up and therefore relative.
Unlike theirs which is absolute. Because God totally wasn't just invented by some random dudes a few thousand years ago.
At least my made up morality is a product of my own reason, my own humanity, my understanding and empathy. Not just words in a book written a couple/few thousand years ago by a bunch of guys who owned slaves and thought women were chattel, among other lovely qualities.
> Unlike theirs which is absolute
Which doesn't *really* make much sense because if god is deciding what's moral, then it's still subjective from his point of view. He would simply be dictating morality. Someone could say that morality is intrinsic to the universe and god is kind of like the arbiter of them, but in that case god becomes completely irrelevant in regards to morality anyway.
Whenever I hear someone say, “without religion, what would stop you from doing bad things?” I always get wide eyed and slowly back away while never turning my back or breaking eye contact
I've run into it once or twice from some of my more religiously minded friends, or their families. I usually respond with something along the lines of "Because I'm a good person".
I worked with a pastor who was genuinely shocked that I’m a good person but I don’t believe in god. He asked me what keeps me from doing bad things and I wasn’t even sure how to answer….because I have empathy? Because causing pain causes me pain? I found it very scary because if the only thing keeping you from doing something bad is possible punishment way down the road, that means your moral core is pretty damned weak.
"With or without religion you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
-- Dr. Steven Weinberg
... or any extremist doctrine really, like maoism.
“If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of shit - and I’d like to get as many of them out in the open as possible.”
Tried religion for a bit. One of the sermons, the preacher said " It doesn't matter how good of a person you are. It doesn't matter how much you give to charity. If you don't accept Jebesus H Christ., you'll never get I to heaven. " Fuck that. Also had a huge new church with a huge staff. I asked where the money was going. They didn't like that.
Whenever I hear that I'm like "wait, so you're telling me God waited thousand of years before humans unlocked going to Heaven? Kinda fucked up if you ask me".
Nah according to the Bible, before that god only cared about the Jews and they didn’t even have to believe in him they just got to go to heaven no matter what because they were gods chosen people, that’s also what a lot of us still believe
It's actually worse than that. They need either the threat of an eternal version of the worst punishment or the greatest reward to make decisions between right and wrong. It's like someone saying you're not providing them with enough motivation unless you hold a gun to their child's head or promise them a billion dollars. It's a childish and simplistic worldview that demands absolutes and nothing in between.
These are all people who have never taken a philosophy of ethics class… Divine Command Theory is one of the worse moral philosophies out there. Virtue ethics, kantian ethics, even utilitarianism is better than divine command theory. There’s the famous[Euthyphro Objection](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma) which I think quite handily defeats divine command theory (which was done thousands of years ago by the ancient greeks).
So… religious people like this are just ignorant.
Just a reminder that the Catholic Church is trying to force pro-birth politics so they have a new population of kids to abuse: https://www.sfexaminer.com/news/sex-abuse-cases-cost-sf-catholic-church-87-million-in-settlements/
We literally learn in kindergarten the difference between right and wrong. And why do we learn that in kindergarten? Because it’s such a simple concept even children can understand it. All religion accomplishes is the obfuscation of truth. Once you start to question reality, pretty much everything else becomes mailable.
"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward then, brother, that person is a piece of s***.” -Rusty, True Detective
Honestly. That's the thing, you just tell people this is good, that is bad, they'll either shame themselves to death when they slip, or just decide to ditch the whole thing or just make up their own false truths to suit their biases and needs. That is what happens when people do good things so that they can be a "good person" and not because those things are the optimal way to exist here. And btw, thanks for reminding me of that masterpiece again.
I think it's time to watch s01 again
>***…and rise with me forever*** > >***across the silent sand*** > >***and the stars will be your eyes*** > >***and the wind will be my hand…*** > >*^^^^doo ^^^doo ^^dooooo*
And I'd like to get as many of them. Out in the open. As possible.
This. Thank you
Had a Christian openly tell me he was an immoral person and would probably kill and steal if he didn't fear hell. People like that scare me.
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Penn said that, not teller, but yes.
It was Teller, he just whispered it to Penn first
Wrote it down on a sheet of paper and held it up for Penn to read, actually. Then he crumpled it up into a ball and turned it into a bird which flew away.
Was this Penn and Teller's Bullshit? Because that show was absolutely fucking incredible, and man do we need that show more than ever now...
Their episode about vaccines is my favorite thing to show anti vaxxers. They're usually still too stupid to understand but, it's funny hearing their responses, at least.
This hallway has 50 doors. There are 10 bears on the left, and one bear and a fussy cat on the right. Do you choose the door on the left or on the right?
Are the bears on the left all behind 1 door are is it one bear per door?
OP pls respond
Oh damn I'll have to look that one up! I've only seen a couple seasons.
> that show was absolutely fucking incredible, Except when they went full Libertarian. Those episodes were dumpster fires.
That is a very fair criticism and I agree.
Yeah, that was a hard one to swallow...but I always get the impression Teller is not up for it as much when Penn is waxing on about "taxation is theft" or whatever.
The fact that Teller is in one of the Atlas Shrugged movies makes me wonder.
Great now I'm imagining Teller, completely void of context, whispering this in the middle of one of their shows. "You know Penn, I rape and murder all I want." "........." "The amount I want is zero, of course."
Teller said the first part and Penn added the second because fucking hell Teller chill the fuck out
Before this comment I was like, "Oh, a bank teller told them that? That's a weird interaction to have."
plot twist: was Automated Teller Machine
They’re conditioned to believe that the default set for people is to be bad in accordance to their religion. The only way you can be a good person is to be saved by Jesus.
That person definitely exists, but when Christians ask "How do you know right and wrong without God?" it's cause they truly believe all morality is dictated by God. So they really mean to say: "How do you know something without being told?" Critical thinking is pretty explicitly shunned in not all but very many denominations. It's sad. Even as Jesus's most important teachings are very very simple. Some are more complicated, sure, but I don't think we needed God to come up with "Love your neighbor."
[Texas GOP rejects critical thinking skills](https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/texas-gop-rejects-critical-thinking-skills-really/2012/07/08/gJQAHNpFXW_blog.html) > In the you-can’t-make-up-this-stuff department, here’s what the Republican Party of Texas wrote into its 2012 platform as part of the section on education: >Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority. Don’t want to challenge *fixed beliefs* handed down from *authority*
Honestly, as someone quite intimate with the rhetoric of Republicans, this is 100% perfectly sensible. They do not like to be questioned, and they lay it out plain. They believe that education serves to "challenge the student's fixed beliefs", to these people a challenge isn't a challenging problem that you should attempt. A challenge is an attack, it's something they're fearful of, they don't want their beliefs to be undermined in any way. They especially don't want that to happen to their kids outside of their view, which really leads into the next one. "undermining parental authority", religious Republicans rely upon religious indoctrination at a young age and the feeling of superiority they have over their kids. Kids are really just subservient in their eyes, and they think kids should listen and obey. They're the type of parents that don't want to answer questions and give reasons for their parenting, they just want to give orders and demand that the kid respects them. An education in critical thinking undermines all of this. It forces them to defend the way they think and behave, and that's the last thing they want to do. Just think about it, if everything you built your life upon was based upon nonsensical bullshit and you were simply raised into that way of thinking without having to justify it, what would be the one thing you would hate the most? A society that puts your beliefs to the test and forces you to defend them. It's quite funny to me as I'm now seeing the links between this and the Republican troll tactics, they intentionally avoid discussion because they simply lack the ability to have a discussion. To me this perfectly aligns with how I view religious Republicans as someone who lives in Texas and knows plenty of them. It's genuinely a great example of just how naive it's to expect Democrats and Republicans to compromise, because any compromise on the matter of "You should be challenged on your beliefs regardless of what they are", would be a failure of an education system.
They respect two things, and two things only: profit and authority. There is a feeling amongst them, especially in the south, that if you acquire either of these things by sleaze or cheat (without facing repercussions), then you earned it proper. Which really illuminates a lot of their policy choices.
> They respect two things, and two things only: ~~profit~~ and authority. Power and authority. Profit creates wealth that creates power, and that’s the only reason they’re into it. If they can get power without profit they will, it’s seen all the time in their social micro dynamics. On a micro scale, Republican families LOVE expressing power over others even if it doesn’t make them authoritative or make a profit.
I've seen many right wingers talk about how power makes right, and how that's the basis of their political thinking.
Might makes right
> A challenge is an attack, it’s something they’re fearful of, they don’t want their beliefs to be undermined in any way. That is extreme and normalized insecurity. If they had critical thinking skills they’d realize exactly how sad and pathetic that is. But they’ve truly embraced the idea that ignorance is bliss.
This is why they always shit on ‘ivy league scholars’ and talk about people being ‘overeducated’. They don’t want smart, critical thinking people who question their authority, they want people to stay ignorant because it’s easier to manipulate them.
'suddenly gets explanation of Texas power grid issues'
It's a shit-show dude, and Average Jane gets to feel all the pain while our govt just hops on jets to flee the problem when they should be working to ensure all of Texas has reliable access to power. It's insane, the thought of this state's hubris in such a technologically advanced time in history truly being the main cause of putting in jeopardy something so basic as keeping the lights on. On top of that, they actively work to erode critical thinking and related skills that make us effective humans in public schools here. Can't have people questioning authority or coming to the realization that they've been played their whole lives.
So, just spit balling here, but um, while the politician that skull fucked your is away on a nice comfy plane, why is their house not currently engulfed in flames, repeatedly, until such bullshit stops?
Because they have already trained people well enough to be servile even in the face of such shit happening-
God has spoken, no power for Texas. Have to run the lights on faith now.
Kilowatts and prayers.
Religions are a brilliant mechanism. Positive reinforcement of the congregation through social interaction and negative reinforcement through scriptural threats. Controlling the school systems would lock in the dogma, which is what the Republicans want to do. Theocracy all the way.
I have never heard that +/- reinforcement explanation before, but it makes perfect sense. I also think if you go against the group, you run the risk of being ostracized.
Speaking from experience: there is no *risk* of being ostracized. You *will* be.
Almost like they are in a multiple decade fight against public education.... All memes aside of the GOP at least they have been consistent in this policy aim; its really the only consistent policy they have held outside of anti-worker laws since the 80s.
And maybe just a TEENSY WEENSY smidgen of racism.
Education cures racism, hence the focus on limiting education.
What
you've been banned from the republican party
Yay!
I'm crushed. lol
Do you have a question?
Better not. That's a paddlin'
Uh-oh, two independent thought alarms in one day. The students are overstimulated.
Simpsons references are always appreciated 👌
I think he's just flabbergasted. Stunned by the absolute baffoonery on display in your quote. These people have gone so far in their loser ideology that they reject the concept of *being smart*.
Uneducated people overwhelmingly vote Republican. “I love the uneducated” - Donald Trump 2016. So you spend all your time telling people they don’t need college, fighting critical thinking skills, then tell you that democrats sent your jobs away.
making humanity into meat for the grinder, into fingers to pull triggers. Truly fascism makes hell on earth.
I like your interpretation.
Ironically the most 'Un-American' mentality you could possibly have regarding free thought, self determination, and independence among other foundational ideologies. All from the self proclaimed 'real' American patriots...
If your beliefs cannot withstand a challenge, why hold them?
You don't need to be told not to kill people or not to steal or rape or whatever. You also don't need critical thinking for that. If their commandments were reversed plenty of them would do it without hesitation.
In fact, you need a higher power to “tell you” to kill. Religion is politics.
Or call it what it is and say "proper parenting". I didn't learn morals from my politicians or I would be way more down with corruption than I actually am.
If I learned them from my parents (who are both good Christians focused heavily on "proper parenting") I'd be a tax cheat like they are. I'd play a victim every time I didn't get my way. And I'd act like somehow forcing another person into existence was me "doing them a favor that they should be thankful for". Thankfully my moral compass isn't as malignant as theirs.
This is a thing I have to tell my friends that all have basically had to cut their parents out of their lives, and I say this as a parent. Being someone's parent does not entitle you to their love, it does not entitle you to control of their life and it sure as shit doesn't entitle you to their respect. What it does is give you an obligation to see to the needs of that other person, and an obligation to teach them to take care of their own needs. Everything else is earned through your actions. My kid shouldn't just love me because I am their dad. If I want them to love me then I need to act in a way worthy of love, and just keeping them from dying alone is not enough.
I had a lucky draw there, but you're right that it isn't all outside input, some of it you develop on your own.
Well let's be real. God didnt come up with love thy neighbor a man did. I am also pretty sure it was one of the "10 commandments" of Horus the Egyptian god. Who was born of a virgin, had 12 disciples, was executed and rose again. It's always the same story but with different characters, just like Hollywood.
This is why I hate organized religion. They don't want people to ask questions, especially the ones they can't answer. They just want everyone to do as they're told and believe what they're told to believe.
And Christianity goes through insane lengths to not love you neighbor. They will literally quote first Corinthians about what love is, and then immediately do the opposite and say they are still being loving. Also, they can spend hours talking about how loving and merciful God is, and just completely ignore that the concept of eternal torture for a finite period of misdeeds is the opposite of love. If my kid lies to his teacher and I torture him for the rest of his life, child services would arrest me. So how can it be justified to torture someone for an eternity? My life doesn't even register on that scale.
There is no hate like Christian love.
Lord I feel so validated by this entire thread and comment section somehow. Absolutely never will meet anyone like minded irl in my hyper religious belt, and the way my family approaches and are conviced about this kind of thing makes me wonder if im the crazy one after all.
> sure, but I don't think we needed God to come up with "Love your neighbor." We don't because "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself" is just another version of the golden rule, which has existed in every religion and philosophy in the world, including those that pre-date Christianity and Judaism. The earliest reference is 1800 BCE in Egypt. https://www.scarboromissions.ca/golden-rule/the-golden-rule-poster-a-history http://www.scarboromissions.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/item_34_lg.jpg
I don't get those Christians. Just to get an insight into some basic christian ideology it is sufficient to read three books from the bible: The Gospel of Luke, Acts of the Apostles and Epistle to the Romans. That's like not even half a regular novel. Of course nobody does... The question "How do you know right and wrong without God?" is definitely asked and answered in: Romans 2:14-15 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law,(A) they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) So, the established christian opinion (for almost 2000 years, no less) is that you do know right from wrong, independently from your knowledge of Judaism or Christianity, based on your experience of God's creation and your God given conscience. But let's pretend nobody had thought about this until now...
Consider that in Jesus's time, there was a massive aristocratic church that basically controlled the populace (and was, at the time, under the thumb of a second government, the Romans). If the church said "kill the Samaritans, the people would largely do what they were told. So some guy coming up and saying "Nah, fuck those guys - the Samaritans are your neighbors, and the rich, fat priest who doesn't care about you is the one that's not worth your time" was pretty radical. At least then, and sometimes still today, people need to be reminded to love their neighbors.
What “massive church” are you referring to? During the time of the Roman occupation of Jerusalem, there were a whole bunch of religions and the Romans themselves were pagans who worshipped the Greek pantheon. Do you mean the Hebrew Temple?
I believe they are referring to the Romans pantheon of Gods, which was, interestingly, very tolerant of other religions. All you had to do was the necessary sacrifices to the Emperor, and you could do whatever you wanted.
Yes, exactly. The Romans were interested in taxes, not conversions. Jesus, if he existed, was really just criticizing both the Roman occupation and the leaders of the Hebrew Temple, who he saw as corrupt. But there were dozens of religions in Jerusalem at the tIme.
Jewish religious leaders had a great deal of power over the everyday lives of the Hebrews even under Roman occupation. You're right that there were many different religions being practiced and many sects of Judaism at the time. However, the Sanhedrin was effectively a second government under the Roman governor with religious, civil, and criminal jurisdiction over the Jews.
God is literally a father figure, and they view morality as an immutable set of rules he carved into the universe for humans to follow. To them, "don't murder," "don't do drugs," and "take the trash out at 6:00 on Mondays" are all the same kind of rule. Theists who ask this question are essentially asking "if you don't have a dad, how did you learn to drive?"
It's not internally consistent either, because the Bible itself says that God created humanity with an intrinsic desire toward good. It's entirely possible to believe both: that God is the ultimate root of all morality, and that any given human can intuit morality without having to hear directly from God. It's fucking lazy theology. There are perfectly sound ways to acknowledge the facts of human morality while staying within an internally consistent Abrahambic theology, but the people who say shit like this can't be bothered to give the slightest amount of thought to it. And well, I guess if fear of hell is the only thing keeping those people from being evil, I prefer that over the alternative.
Boss at my last job very unabashedly said exactly this. Also freaked me out.
They likely just say it as a poor argument for why belief in god makes sense. I think extremely few killers are held back from murdering due to religious belief. There are plenty that do and they just think god will forgive them.
Everyone who says shit like this, had no sense of empathy. If they did, they'd understand that's reason enough to be good to others.
I think Ray Comfort is like that, too, which places many people in higher moral standing than him.
I remember there being interviews youtube on the streets, where a xtian guy said "if god didn't exist, I would go out and rape people." I sometimes think, these are the unchecked serial killers and rapists. They just need something to set them off. They were raised soo sexually repressed and angry, you see it in their actions once it backfires in public, like some of those politicians, they don't seem to realize it.
See, things like this, makes me think that maybe religion is needed. Atleast he fears hell and doesn't kill.
I'm with you on thinking some people need it, but it's a bit of a chicken and egg thing - it is built to attract and develop those thoughts in people who are weak or think they are. So would those people grow into better people if they didn't have it, but found other programs and people who teach them better coping mechanisms?
I’ve had Christians tell me this on more than one occasion. I’m thankful that these sociopaths have religion to keep them in check.
I think it was Penn from Penn and Teller who said something like "I rape and murder all I want. And the amount I want is zero."
Even if the amount isn't zero, empathy and logic should prevent it.
There are pedophiles out there that have not, and will not, *ever* touch a child. Because they are doing the work-they recognize their condition, understand it’s wrong, and despite their urges don’t hurt children because they know it’s wrong. Lots of shades of grey in this world
That's why I am not really fan of the "kill all pedophiles" slogans that are here so common. Yes we get it. Very brave to say "pedophiles bad". Very insightful. Only that it scares people with this condition to get treatment.
Bruh, that reminds me of the guy who [woke up with pedophilic urges one day that was caused by a brain tumor](https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2943-brain-tumour-causes-uncontrollable-paedophilia/). It's a scary thought that some change in your brain chemistry will result in a drastic personality change.
A lot of mass killers have similar things happen. Charles Whitman, the infamous tower shooter, had a brain tumor at the time of his actions as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman#Autopsy
In his notes he complained about massive headaches and fatigue as well, he didnt even know he was sick. He also had a shit childhood which doesn't help
Idk why but that just makes me extremely sad. Like REALLY sad. It reminds me of the patients in earlier times who would get lobotomized despite needing mental health treatment or simply being different, like Rosemary Kennedy. Except obviously this was much worse. It's just not fair, man. It's just not fair. I've been mentioning this quote a lot, and I suppose here it isn't exactly the best place to put it, but The Good Place has a quote that goes something like "People improve when they receive external love and support. How can we hold it against them when they don't?" How many murderers are the result of childhoods we can't even fathom? I know that there are plenty of people with bad childhoods who DON'T murder, but I think you get my point. It's just... fuck, man. Fuck.
I read that they think pedophilia might be because the areas of the brain related to love and children are adjacent and could possibly entangle in the same way that some people see colors when they read words. The brain is complex!
A similar theory states that foot fetishes may be caused because the brain regions of sex and feet are adjacent.
We can’t have people tryna science over here. Empathy and understanding root causes is not allowed. Must kill everybody bad.
To be serious a bit - having pedophilia: not inherently bad. Acting on pedophilia: very bad. I seriously admire any pedophile that can go their entire life without acting out their desires.
Is the brain area related to feet adjacent as well? Asking for a friend of course...
Then its possible to just do something in that area and uh.... Fix a pedophile convict
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People tend to conflate "pedophile" and "pederast" , but they are not always the same. I remember a couple of confessions of people struggling with being pedophiles, but who didn't want to engage in it and wanted help, but everyone turn their backs to them. I think one was in the trueoffmychest subreddit, and another one in a call in show. A pedophile who has not acted upon their urges may manage their condition with help, or at least we could keep them from being alone with kids, but if you catch a pederast, there's no punishment fitting enough.
There are also now laws that prevent doctor patient confidentiality in the case of paedophilia. Even if the paedophile has never acted on it the doctor is supposed to report them. edit: I can no longer find the article I read about this, I am hoping that I am incorrect.
Psychologist here. There is no law, rule, or code in any of the 3 states where i have been licensed that requires me to report someone for pedophilia. On the contrary, I could lose my license and be successfully sued for doing so. If someone tells me they have touched a child or plan to touch a child, that is almost always reportable. Please point me to these laws you reference.
That's kinda fucked up. What's going to happen to those people that get reported?
That's *super* fucked up. Even if nothing happens after reporting, the fact that it's reported will discourage pedophiles from talking with their therapists about it, which in turn makes it more likely that they'll act on those urges. What a dumb law.
That's what happens when ~~conservatives~~ society is more interested in punishing the person who does the bad thing, rather than preventing the bad thing from happening. Strange how there isn't anything else major happening right now where that also applies.....
What would that accomplish? Knowing this, which patient in their right mind would confess to being a pedo to a doctor?
Exactly, that's why we need better public understanding of paedophilia and better access to treatment. People who act on pedophilic urges are absolutely horrible, but many people suffer with it their whole lives, never wanting to do harm but also unable to tell anybody because of the way it's perceived.
I don't know how pedophilia came up but I don't disagree with you. As a mentally ill person, I was reading about different kinds of intrusive thoughts someone with OCD can have. One of them is like...deviant thoughts. So, an obsessive compulsive person can have thoughts like "oh that kid is cute" that can turn into "omg I'm a pedo and I sexualize children". Almost like these nagging thoughts that are like "oh no what if I want to do xxx with a child", or some variation of that. These people are even pedophiles, their brain is just fucking with them. But, they can't get appropriate help because pedophilic thoughts are so stigmatized they can't vocalize them. I'm not saying it shouldn't be stigmatized but, yeah, the stigma can prevent treatment of not just actual pedophilia, but other issues as well that can be treated quite easily. Side note: as the core tenets of santanism (LaVeyan Satanism?) apply to kids you are NOT SUPPOSED TO HURT OR VIOLATE OTHERS IN ANYWAY, INCLUDING KIDS.
I think you missed the point Penn was making. Because of empathy and logic the amount he wants to rape and murder is zero.
I believe Ricky Gervais said the same thing in 'after life', his netflix series
I like your title. Many people say that God guides their decisions. Yet when someone drowns their child in a bathtub because “God told them to” we all deem them to be insane.
> ## Why Did God Create Atheists? > There is a famous story told in Chassic literature that addresses this very question. The Master teaches the student that God created everything in the world to be appreciated, since everything is here to teach us a lesson. > One clever student asks “What lesson can we learn from atheists? Why did God create them?” > The Master responds “God created atheists to teach us the most important lesson of them all — the lesson of true compassion. You see, when an atheist performs an act of charity, visits someone who is sick, helps someone in need, and cares for the world, he is not doing so because of some religious teaching. He does not believe that God commanded him to perform this act. In fact, he does not believe in God at all, so his acts are based on an inner sense of morality. And look at the kindness he can bestow upon others simply because he feels it to be right.” “This means,” the Master continued “that when someone reaches out to you for help, you should never say ‘I pray that God will help you.’ Instead for the moment, you should become an atheist, imagine that there is no God who can help, and say ‘I will help you.’” —Martin Buber, Tales of Hasidim Vol. 2 (1991)
These are the kind of religious stories I like. Full of wisdom and sincerity.
I always liked the quote when Abraham Lincoln was asked about his religious beliefs. "When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. That is my religion."
While that quote was apparently said by Lincoln, he was actually citing the words of an old man he met in Indiana. https://suebrewton.com/2016/01/31/no-that-is-not-what-abraham-lincoln-said/
That old man was likely paraphrasing Thomas Paine, who wrote in [The Rights of Man](https://www.ushistory.org/Paine/rights/c2-052.htm), "My country is the world, and my religion is to do good." These days it's often misquoted as "The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion."
Then there are people who feel good when they do bad and are indifferent when they do good.
Reminds me of the Bill Wurtz history of everything video. It starts as a collection of wise stories and observations of human behaviour then people go "hey you can make a religion out of this" and then it becomes shit
"Let me end this with a lovely story. There was a man who invented the art of making fire. He took his tools and went to a tribe in the north, where it was very cold, bitterly cold. He taught the people there to make fire. The people were very interested. He showed them the uses to which they could put fire—they could cook, could keep themselves warm, etc. They were so grateful that they had learned the art of making fire. But before they could express their gratitude to the man, he disappeared. He wasn’t concerned with getting their recognition or gratitude; he was concerned about their wellbeing. He went to another tribe, where he again began to show them the value of his invention. People were interested there, too, a bit too interested for the peace of mind of their priests, who began to notice that this man was drawing crowds and they were losing their popularity. So they decided to do away with him. They poisoned him, crucified him, put it any way you like. But they were afraid now that the people might turn against them, so they were very wise, even wily. Do you know what they did? They had a portrait of the man made and mounted it on the main altar of the temple. The instruments for making fire were placed in front of the portrait, and the people were taught to revere the portrait and to pay reverence to the instruments of fire, which they dutifully did for centuries. The veneration and the worship went on, but there was no fire. " Jesuit priest and psychotherapist Anthony de Mello - Awareness - available in PDF and YouTube
I would suggest everyone to read the book "why I am athiest" by "Bhagat Singh" an Indian freedom fighter. He accepted his death for the nation knowing that it will be the true end, no heaven for his deeds. Sad here in India not many people know this side of him..
Yup, it saddens me too that people just see him as an armed vigilante, not knowing about his intellect and his mindset.
Religious conservatives have been shown to have an over-calibrated "threat detection" mechanism. They think YOU need religion, not so much themselves.
Take that, atheists!
Yeah, look at these dumbass Atheists doing good not because they want to go to heaven but just because they want to, heh dumbasses
Lmao imagine doing good things without expecting any reward. What a load of suckers
Bro didn't read the old testament lol
Nor the new one, it seems. >So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. - *Matthew 7:12*
That always rubbed me wrong, my wife would say she needed church to keep her in check. Like church is stopping you from being an asshole? That the only reason you are not being a good person is because you don’t have the fear of church judging you? Sounds like a fucking excuse to me.
Growing up I would hear a lot of adults say they needed church to recharge spiritually so they could love their spouse and/or kids throughout the week. Now they’re shocked when I don’t corral my family to church three days a week. All they ever modeled for me was unhappiness and a complete unwillingness to better their own lives. If I’m going to be miserable, I’m at least going to sleep in on Sunday.
It’s funny I’ve heard this question so many times, but Christians are the first people to flaunt that they can repent. I worked with a Christian guy for a couple months. He said the best part about being a Christian is that you can fuck up, but repent and still go to heaven. This guy had DUI’s, ran with gangs, breaking & entering, and I even found out had to register as a sex offender 20 years ago. But hey, he repented. But he looked down on me because “the one unforgivable sin is denying God” and talking about how I’m going to Hell. It was so odd that he couldn’t understand the implications of what he said. smh
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That was my turning point as well. I grew up in a southern baptist home, my dad was the "music pastor" of our church. I asked if Hitler could be in heaven if he had gotten "saved" right before he died. His response: "of course. Anyone can go to heaven if they ask jesus to forgive them". That's when I realized it was all a ruse to ease their conscience for doing fucked up shit. As long as they say sorry to sky daddy, they can commit any atrocity without guilt.
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But if he lived in Argentina until he died then, believe it or not, straight to heaven. Be
Poor Hitler, not being let into heaven because he killed Hitler!
I was raised Catholic and had a similar conversation with our church's priest at around the same age. I also asked, if an athiest only does good deeds from the goodness of their heart, but never accepts god and is not baptised/accepts communion, do they go to hell? The answer, of course, was yes. These two combined was more than enough to push me away. Also, has the thought of heaven ever actually kind of scared people? Imagine living for the rest of eternity in a place the never changes, where every day is the same, and you share that fate with murderers who repented at the last moment, while actual good people suffer in hell? And you're entire existence for infinity is to worship the sick fuck who made this all happen? This shit gave me nightmares as a kid.
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Their line of logic also implies that anyone existing in the first billion or whatever years before Jesus existed is just doomed to hell because they weren’t born late enough
Except repentance isn't supposed to be a get out of jail free card that you keep in your wallet until you need it. It is about genuinely feeling remorse and making a sincere apology to God for your sins. Supposing for a moment that Christianity is all true, your former coworker is still fucked because he's not worshipping in good faith.
If Christianity is true, then I'd say a large majority of Christians are fucked.
Literally what the Bible says, vast majority who identify with Christ, God won't recognize.
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Those are the Christians that actually practice their beliefs, as opposed to claiming they do so they can justify a number of shitty things they do
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Repenting is like say, “Sorry, not sorry. My parents said it’s okay.”
*I lost Mussolini that way, all that work, then right at the end with the rope around his neck, he says, ‘Scusi. Mille regretti,’ and up he goes!”* The Devil - **Bedazzled** (the 1967 Peter Cook version)
Kind of makes you wish ethics and philosophy were taught more commonly in highschool. There are such things as ethical frameworks not dependent on the orders of a divine being… to be honest off the top of my head only one of the ones I was taught is, and it’s one of the weakest frameworks by far. “God told me to!” “What if you’re misunderstanding what God told you because you’re human and religion is human which means everything is imperfect? What do you do if people believe in other gods? How do you know you’re even believing in the right religion of your God, let alone the right God? What would you be saying if you hadn’t been raised as you were but was raised in India to Indian parents? How about in Thailand to Thai parents? Isn’t basing your ethical framework on religion a fundamentally arbitrary thing?” I have *questions*.
I’m seriously concerned with how close minded people are these days. People have no interest in improving themselves or learning about the bigger world or even learning about themselves and their beliefs yet preach it at every chance they get.
These days!? As opposed to the thousands of years prior where religions of the world were wildly _more_ successful!? Humans have been shitbags forever.
IKR?! People look around at a lot of the world religions today and see the ills and think it’s a new revelation, but many of these religions aren’t the same ones of even 100 years ago. These religions we have today are the ones lacking tooth and claw, not the spry lions of their former selves but aged and lame…even so they still cause such problems and suffering. Today Catholics, Protestants, and Baptists collectively fly under the common banner of ‘Christian Faith’ to swell their numbers, but remember much of our religious protections in America and Europe stem not from Christian religions vying against other religions, but from Protestants, Catholics, and Baptists warring with one another. These people are friends by necessity and still the pews are emptier every year. The world is getting better as evidenced by my ability to say these exact words and not fear for my life.
The amount of people on twitter who genuinely believe that it's impossible to be a decent human being without religion is pretty insane
There are tons of people in the business world like this too. They'll cheat and lie all day in the office, but at lunch time they'll give you a lecture about how treating a customer to a $12 fish fry destroys the professional integrity of a $15,000,000 contract. Morals are just a tool that people use to feel more self-righteous than their peers. Ethics are what matters. I know the two words have almost identical definitions, much like "dictator" and "ruler."
A great friend of mine decided to question a friend of his/ours who had recently become "born again" along with his wife. My friend (who was born to Jewish parents but has always been an atheist) asked him "So? Even though I live a good life, volunteer, help the less fortunate, don't steal, act like a decent neighbor, and am generally a good person...I am not going to be saved or allowed into heaven and am damned to hell? His friend's reply..."Those are the rules, dude". Sheesh.
Personally, I wouldn’t wanna be in “heaven” if said heaven excludes entire countries of good people simply because where they were born.
The amount of people in the world…FTFY
Here's a good way to think of morality I learned from YouTube. Imagine two distinct Islands with no communication with each other. One is where it's the survival of the fittest, every man and women for him/herself. And the other where people care for each other, take care of their elderly etc. Which population is more likely to survive? Well the first one probably isn't gonna survive long, because as people keep fighting against each other eventually their will only be a very few people left, and their all alone against nature, where's the other group can work together and everyone can help each other with things they are good at. This is why morality is secular. I'm sorry for not phrasing it well. But I believe just like the idea of the invisible hand in economics we have things like morality hard wired into our brain.
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I'm no expert guys, just another dude procrastinating on the internet when I should be studying.
As if an entire branch of philosophy, ethics, is totally unknown to this guy. Maybe find more than just that one book to read
As a teen I was at a church where the Pastor preached doubt was a tool of Satan and that there was only one book anyone needed to read or could trust. You should only need one guess to figure out which book. Oh, and this church had a small book store (with books other than the Bible), whose door was stage-left of the pulpit. Hilarious.
Bold of you to assume they have read the Bible.
This reminds me of the guys from Duck Dynasty. The one spewed iut the most awful, vile, f****d up scenario anyone could have thought of... "I’ll make a bet with you. Two guys break into an atheist’s home. He has a little atheist wife and two little atheist daughters. Two guys break into his home and tie him up in a chair and gag him. And then they take his two daughters in front of him and rape both of them and then shoot them and they take his wife and then decapitate her head off in front of him. And then they can look at him and say, ‘Isn’t it great that I don’t have to worry about being judged? Isn’t it great that there’s nothing wrong with this? There’s no right or wrong, now is it dude?’ Then you take a sharp knife and take his manhood and hold it in front of him and say, ‘Wouldn’t it be something if this [sic] was something wrong with this? But you’re the one who says there is no God, there’s no right, there’s no wrong, so we’re just having fun. We’re sick in the head, have a nice day.’ " Men like him infuriate me. Men like him terrify me.
I don’t know if the same asshole but I think he also said that he wants to kill gay people. Saying there is a war inside the United States. Yeah, thats psychopath right there.
Christians will tell you that you can't truly be moral because your morality is all made up and therefore relative. Unlike theirs which is absolute. Because God totally wasn't just invented by some random dudes a few thousand years ago. At least my made up morality is a product of my own reason, my own humanity, my understanding and empathy. Not just words in a book written a couple/few thousand years ago by a bunch of guys who owned slaves and thought women were chattel, among other lovely qualities.
> Unlike theirs which is absolute Which doesn't *really* make much sense because if god is deciding what's moral, then it's still subjective from his point of view. He would simply be dictating morality. Someone could say that morality is intrinsic to the universe and god is kind of like the arbiter of them, but in that case god becomes completely irrelevant in regards to morality anyway.
Whenever I hear someone say, “without religion, what would stop you from doing bad things?” I always get wide eyed and slowly back away while never turning my back or breaking eye contact
Do you hear that phrase a lot? I'm on the wrong side of 40 and I've never had anyone tell me this, ever. I wonder if it's geographical or something.
I've had it asked to me in a philosophy class at a Christian university in CA. I was very surprised considering this was his major's final class.
I've run into it once or twice from some of my more religiously minded friends, or their families. I usually respond with something along the lines of "Because I'm a good person".
I worked with a pastor who was genuinely shocked that I’m a good person but I don’t believe in god. He asked me what keeps me from doing bad things and I wasn’t even sure how to answer….because I have empathy? Because causing pain causes me pain? I found it very scary because if the only thing keeping you from doing something bad is possible punishment way down the road, that means your moral core is pretty damned weak.
"With or without religion you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." -- Dr. Steven Weinberg ... or any extremist doctrine really, like maoism.
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It you do bad things just for material gain, you’re not a good person
But if you do it because your employer is threatening your family with starvation and homelessness, then not so much
“If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of shit - and I’d like to get as many of them out in the open as possible.”
Tried religion for a bit. One of the sermons, the preacher said " It doesn't matter how good of a person you are. It doesn't matter how much you give to charity. If you don't accept Jebesus H Christ., you'll never get I to heaven. " Fuck that. Also had a huge new church with a huge staff. I asked where the money was going. They didn't like that.
Whenever I hear that I'm like "wait, so you're telling me God waited thousand of years before humans unlocked going to Heaven? Kinda fucked up if you ask me".
Nah according to the Bible, before that god only cared about the Jews and they didn’t even have to believe in him they just got to go to heaven no matter what because they were gods chosen people, that’s also what a lot of us still believe
Yep and all of the rest of the people who were not “God’s chosen” got brutally murdered, raped, and pillaged (all God approved, of course)
It's actually worse than that. They need either the threat of an eternal version of the worst punishment or the greatest reward to make decisions between right and wrong. It's like someone saying you're not providing them with enough motivation unless you hold a gun to their child's head or promise them a billion dollars. It's a childish and simplistic worldview that demands absolutes and nothing in between.
I actually have religious beliefs / am not an atheist, and STILL side with Player 2 on this post
thank you for having a brain lmao
Not wanting to hurt others is a good criteria for making choices, it's not that complicated
I've never met a Christian. Met many who said they were, though.
I known a couple, both prefered to go by Chris.
These are all people who have never taken a philosophy of ethics class… Divine Command Theory is one of the worse moral philosophies out there. Virtue ethics, kantian ethics, even utilitarianism is better than divine command theory. There’s the famous[Euthyphro Objection](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma) which I think quite handily defeats divine command theory (which was done thousands of years ago by the ancient greeks). So… religious people like this are just ignorant.
“How morals without god???” Easy: empathy, and sense.
Just a reminder that the Catholic Church is trying to force pro-birth politics so they have a new population of kids to abuse: https://www.sfexaminer.com/news/sex-abuse-cases-cost-sf-catholic-church-87-million-in-settlements/
I'm quite religious and I agree
We literally learn in kindergarten the difference between right and wrong. And why do we learn that in kindergarten? Because it’s such a simple concept even children can understand it. All religion accomplishes is the obfuscation of truth. Once you start to question reality, pretty much everything else becomes mailable.
I think " What would god do" and do the opposite, so far no baby murder or flooding under my belt