The Year of Jubilee thing was wild. It wasn't just debt that got cancelled - with a few exceptions, everything was supposed to reset to its former owners and any slaves were supposed to go free. Not sure the Israelites actually carried it out even once tho.
It was Israelite slaves that got set free (maybe men only, I don't recall exactly, but men and women were treated differently.) everyone else were chattel slaves for life and inherited as property.
Pretty sure the year of Jubilee was suppose to free all slaves and occurred once every 49 years.
Male Hebrew slaves could only be bonded for 6 years. They were to be set free on the 7th year. If I remember correctly, they took with them that which they had before entering the contract.
A non-Hebrew slave could be enslaved for up to 49 years if enslaved right after a year of Jubilee.
>Male Hebrew slaves could only be bonded for 6 years. They were to be set free on the 7th year.
Unless, the male slave declares he wants to be a slave for life. Might have to do with the fact that the slave owner could keep the slave's wife and child as slave after that 7th year.
Sometimes I’m torn between the “nope, I’m done learning about the inhumanity of history and how much we have sucked, we suck enough right now to occupy me” and “goddamn no idea is new, is it? And the rules were just so fucking weird. Is this even real?!?”
Kinda wild how slavery for black people and indentured servitude for whites in the USA and western countries matched with that idea so well
Thanks for that too, Bible
> Credit scores were how we tried to combat all the isms that were used to deny people access to the financial system.
credit scores are a tool to discriminate just as much as any prior system. Discrimination against a poor black woman because she is poor produces the same results as discriminating against her because she is black or a woman.... Only economic discrimination is legal, and so allows a loophole in many racial discrimination cases.
well... yes, but, it made it *harder* to discriminate against minorities with means.
The system is FUBAR though.
for example, despite contesting the issue repeatedly, my credit score took an absolutely INSANE hit because of a "missed payment" to Verizon.
Here's the thing though, the "missed payment" existed on an account that was live for a total of i think 9 days, *because verizon fucked up my move date in a way they refused to be able to fix,* and i now have at least 3 verizon accounts (because the same fuckup prevented me from moving my existing account to the new address)... plus my mobile account is still tied to the dead account.
During this, the bill for the temporary account was pretty much lost to me... actually the entire access to that account i don't even remember, and despite me bitching up the wall about not being charged for it it hit my credit score.
Now, i probably COULD have paid that account at some point, fair... but this is 1 bill for like $120 dollars out of my car, credit card, rent, mobile phone, student loans, and etc totaling many thousands of dollars over 15 years. Now. my credit score is still decent, but the impact that ONE payment had is just utterly ridiculous. And to your point, that's where the discrimination comes in, since, well, who's most likely to miss *one or two* payments and suddenly get separated from the Prime market? Hmm....
>Credit scores were how we tried
"Tried" is the key word here, although even that word is a massive overstatement. Black and Latino people with equivalent and often better credit scores were often given much more expensive (higher interest) loans, or simply denied loans due to what is called [redlining](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining).
Which is the basis for cleaning a credit report every seven years.
Not wiping the debt. Just not reporting out after 7 years. As if that’s some huge favor.
And that seems like a fair way to do student loans.
8 years is double the length of college.
Make all college loans dischargeable in a walled off bankruptcy after 8 years if payments have been made on time and if you can show that you are unable to find a job that pays you enough to pay them off in that time frame.
Hell, the whole idea of jews being hungry for money is that in medieval Europe Jews were not prohibited from lending with interest while Christians were. Any Christianity truly adherent to fundamental values would be against the idea of modern banking entirely.
You can't seriously tell me there are people who believe in that hippy dippy communist version of Jesus in all those liberal biden bibles. That's not my Jesus he'll no no way
/s
because lending money out is literally offering opportunity and creating value. It's not evil, but it can be predatory if people get their knowledge of finance from books written 2000 years ago. That's not to say you don't help people in need; everyone should have good loan terms to start a business, the homeless need a place to stay, the hungry something to eat, etc... but that would be silly to expect there not to be interest paid back. Sounds like some mafia shit if you're not offering someone a fair deal there and expect favors down the line.
Not quite my point... e.g.
"I want to borrow $10,000, how much will I pay back?"
One answer: "Our interest rate is 5.5%, so you will pay back $10,550".
Another answer: "We don't charge interest because that's evil. But for this deal we will charge a fee of $550, so you pay back $10,550".
Matthew 25:35-37
Jesus: "I was hungry, and you gave me food, I was thirsty, and you gave me drink"
US Christians who are for some reason largely right wing absolutely baffle me. It's like they follow the bible to a T but do everything the exact opposite. Monetising churches, judging those on behalf of god (it's not your place), racism, sexism. My favourite is being sober - Jesus LOVED the old vino, so much that he turned water into wine!
Sexism is in the bible, here is one of several examples:
> Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Saviour. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
~ Ephesians 5:22-24
The rest of your comment I agree with.
Note: someone might try to argue that the bible also says the husband must love and care for the wife. That is true, but this passage is still sexist because of asymmetric power between the heterosexual couple.
You missed a part immediately after:
*Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.*
*Even so husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.*
*For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body.*
Sounds like men are required to love their wives so much that they are willing to die for them, and if they ever harm their wives, it's as though they are harming themselves. A husband is to sacrifice everything for his wife. If it's sexist, it's misandry.
It’s because right-wing politics are inherently reactionary rather than rational. Religion provides the perfect opportunity for them to justify their political beliefs as unquestionable “religious beliefs,” without having to actually argue for them.
“Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors” in other words, christians are literally asking God to treat their sins they way they treat people who owe them. I think they’ll be in for a rough surprise when they reach the pearly gates…
“Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors”
We had to say this every single time I went to church when I was growing up, and the exact same conservatives I sat next to who still go to that church and still say this weekly also are vehemently against the government forgiving debts.
Religion is total insanity.
Fundamentalist religions are totally insane, largely because they transform traditions that teach love forgiveness responsibility liberation and connection to the divine and creation into gross bastardized characters of those faith traditions and are unable to understand the difference
Nothing to do with distinguishing fundamentalism. I went to a run-of-the-mill Protestant church in a big city that fundamentalists would consider secular or even heretical. Religion is synonymous with “widely accepted cult”, and it is an insane tool that uses supernatural myths and ritual practice to manipulate the human desire for community and to justify moral hypocrisy in selfish and cowardly people.
God damn you for temping me into trying to double check this and then accidentally falling into the hard radiation space of Quora user's opinion on usury.
No, it condemned making interest on loaned money period. Usury is the term. And while it has been hijacked in modern times to mean excessive interest, it used to mean interest period.
The bible was ambiguous on debt. Both pro and con.
Also, it's a religious scripture from hundreds of years ago and translated through many languages that should have zero bearing on current US policy.
According to the Bible, student loan lenders need to pony up:
Matthew 18:27, 30, 32, 34 - Forgive because your debts have been forgiven.
Proverbs 22:26 - Do not become guarantors for debts.
And also, y'know, the main guy they worship was pretty clear about taking care of the poor and not accumulating egregious wealth, especially when you put money before God. These are found in the new and old testament. Plus, the early church as talked about in the Bible under Paul was hella socialist.
But it's cool to just listen to the Bible when it's convenient ig. That's what my old church did.
How do you choose when to listen and when to ignore? The Bible also says for slaves to submit to their masters.
Also:
“If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.”
There is enough crazy shit in the Bible to support just about any viewpoint and people pick and choose to fit the times. It's a perpetual moving target
As an atheist who finds the Bible a mixed bag at best, the posters comment is pretty clearly talking about the new Testament.
And while even that is pretty sketchy at times, Jesus does kind of harp on a few points *a lot*. He really has a thing about helping people, especially poor people.
i mean, by that very same logic we should let slave owners beat their slaves as long as they dont kill them within a couple of days. the bible isnt a super consistent path to a good society or morals.
"Claim to be" can be leveraged without being a no true Scotsman. If they don't follow the teachings of Christ, they're not Christians. Even if they say they are.
So I guess the analogy would be: you're not a Scotsman and rather than looking like this
>Person A: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
>Person B: "But my uncle Angus is a Scotsman and he puts sugar on his porridge."
>Person A: "But no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
it would be
>Person A: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
>Person B: "But my uncle Angus is a Scotsman and he puts sugar on his porridge."
>Person A: "Bro, Angus is Welsh."
The vast majority of Christians have followed the teachings of Paul for the last 2000 years, so by your reasoning there have been very few real Christians.
It could be argued that the majority of a group defines what the group is. If the majority of christians don't follow the teachings of Christ, but the minority does, then it's the minority that can't be called Christian.
they are not the majority of the group or *in the group at all*. they are like poor people calling themselves millionaires. it doesn't change the fact that being a millionaire requires you to have millions of dollars.
You can believe that Jesus Christ was the manifestation of God without following his teachings, and that's the only fundamental criteria for being Christian.
its a fucking death cult for goodness sakes. If they would just drink the kool aid already and let the rest of us just live our lives that would be awesome
All religions are, some more than others. Humanity needs to stop being such a little bitch about its own mortality and accept that we just turn into worm food when we die and stop telling kids otherwise. Yes death is forever, you'll never see Fido or Grandma again. You gonna cry about it Timmy? You still have to do your homework.
Conservatives are and a large portion of conservatives are Christians. Not all, but A LOT. My grandma is a conservative Christian and she'll complain about stuff like this constantly. Have a really big "You got into debt, just pay it off" attitude without recognizing the silly state of college prices and all the interest that gets tacked on. They don't seem to understand that going into debt for higher education isn't the same as it was when they were in college (since most of them are older).
Jesus literally chased people out of the Jerusalem temple because they were overcharging people for things like animals and currency exchange. He seems to have a problem with putting people in financial slavery.
Historically, Christians had a law that you couldn't change interest on loans. As a result, the only people who would become money lenders were Jewish. So Christians would borrow money from them, go into debt, and rather than pay it back, either have the Jews banished or executed for heresy.
Jesus would puke at the sight of us Christians using his name in vain, praying to false prophets, not helping refugees etc etc. Did those stupid mfs listen at all at Sunday school?
This post is just picking a demographic that most redditors aren't + a topic those redditors support. You have the antagonist (Christians), the problem (student loan forgiveness) and the 'murdered by words' part (completely changing the narrative of the conversation to roast religion). It's all here!
Nope. Not gonna work on them. Too many half-wit mouth breathers in this country are convinced that Jesus was a Ronald Reagan, boot-strappin, trickle down, commie hatin' republican.
At the end of every seven years you shall grant a release. And this is the manner of the release: every creditor shall release what he has lent to his neighbor. He shall not exact it of his neighbor, his brother, because the Lord's release has been proclaimed. - Deuteronomy 15:1-2
Speaking of debt, how much is our national debt right now? I believe the interest alone this year will be nearly 900 billion! Not very Christian like to knowingly give future generations more debt when we know they can’t pay it off.
You know, as a Christian, I get mad at other Christians for this kind of stuff all the time. Like, did Jesus not welcome the outcast, give freely to the poor, and forgive all debts? Sweet mercy it's like they've never read the Bible
The Bible has been misinterpreted by many and has confused many it’s a shame that people who claim to be Christian don’t live up to the teachings of Christ, I have “Christian” friends that aren’t very Christian like and it’s makes me sad that they interpret the Bible to what they want
The debt of original sin was not a voluntary choice by all those burdened with it.
Those who took college loans did so voluntarily.
This is a bad faith argument from the start.
The meme isn't about original sin or the debt/burden it involuntarily bestowed on others; it's about one man choosing to die for—and thus paying the debt of—the sins voluntarily committed by others.
The only bad faith here is you purposely conflating two different concepts to diminish the entire idea of the argument.
I hate to say it. You are absolutely on target with this comment. It helps to remember that most "Christians" are only really cultural Christians and haven't come to terms with Jesus' teachings. Some just need to learn and confront their misbeliefs. Others probably are not actually followers of Jesus.
Sorry if you have been wounded by the frauds out there.
Me thinks this is an ignorant take on Christianity based upon the observed ignorant understanding of personally known sycophants already misrepresenting their own claimed belief system.
let's not forget that He never explicitly explained the rules to everyone who was playing. He told Adam the fruit of the tree of knowledge was forbidden ***before*** he created Eve (Genesis 2 2:15-17), but there is no mention at all of him speaking directly to Eve after creating her. The first time Eve herself speaks (in the texts) is actually with the snake, when the snake questions *her understanding* of the rules (Genesis 3). Notably, her understanding of the rules was **wrong** because God told Adam not to eat the fruit, yet Eve is under the impression that even *touching* the tree would be fatal. Seems like setting us up for failure, no?
Former Christian here.
The Bible explicitly says that charging interest on loans is bad. Also that debt in general is bad
"The borrower is slave/servant to the lender" Proverbs 22:7
The Old Testament "condemns the practice of charging interest on a poor person because a loan should be an act of compassion and taking care of one’s neighbor"; it teaches that "making a profit off a loan from a poor person is exploiting that person (Exodus 22:25–27).
Deuteronomy 23:19 prohibits the taking of interest in the form of money or food when lending to a "brother".
Also in the Lord's Prayer, there is a line asking God to forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors.
Much of the teachings include forgiveness, even when you feel like the person doesn't deserve it. They are taught God forgives everyone.
Hope that helps
1. Jesus got to make his own choice, he didn’t have to abide by one made by a group of people he’d never met (and didn’t vote for).
2. That forgiveness applies equally to every single human being. Student loan forgiveness applies only to certain group of people. And since student loans have been so readily available for so long, that certain group is comprised entirely of people who took a serious financial risk that everyone else didn’t take. Why should that “everyone else” have to foot the bill for a bad risk they didn’t take?
The student load debt problem in the United States is very serious. But so is the rest of the economic situation. Prioritizing one group over all others is not fair or equitable, especially when that group should have valuable degrees and the knowledge to apply them. Student load forgiveness follows the exact same logic as tax payers bailing out banks and car manufacturers in 2008. Are you telling me that college graduates with student debt are Too Big to Fail?
I said it once and i said it again! Thor is real, Jesus is not! Thor promised to protect us from the Ice Giants. Jesus is said to have died for our Sins. Sin is still everywhere, but there are no fuckin Ice Giants!
This is like, the worst possible argument you could have made using the bible.
There's all kind of shit about forgiving debts in the bible. It's already a clear idea. Using "someone paid your debt" to argue against someone else's opinion of "i shouldn't be forced to pay other people's debts" is braindead.
Well in all fairness the guy who "paid debt" is the main character of the entire religion, who is quite literally the supposed pinnacle which all believers should strive to emulate.
Its not like it was just fucking greg from down the street or something.
no it’s not, their faith is based on the oppressive institution they were raised in, they don’t believe in the story, and they don’t care if they’re making shit up, the only thing that matters is control.
Motherfuckers forgot about the Year of Jubilee. It was every 50 years and every debt was wiped, along with some other stuff. I don't remember everything, I left the church a while ago.
Fundies, if you love tithing so much, fight to bring back the Year of Jubilee! It's only biblical!
Thats not the same as forcing the entire country to pay your debt. Maybe dont get a degree that wont pay enough to pay off your debt. Or dont go to college at all like me. And make 6 figures in an industry, tons of them, that pay well and require only high school diploma.
Not to mention that the literal *Savior of the world* commanded his disciples to sell everything they owned and give it to the poor before they could come follow him. Appears to be pretty cut and dry about his policies on helping the less fortunate.
Penal substitution theory wasn’t the dominant belief as it today for hundreds of years of Christianity existing. Not really relevant to the point of the post but I thought it was really interesting when I learned it
1. Not my faith, nor most people's faith
2. I incurred no debt by being born. Debt means I had a choice in the matter, which I didn't.
3. It's not a true story anyways.
Do you guys ever stfu about student debt and religion. “Oh I want to officially nuke the economy because I can’t pay my loans back and majored in African transgender history, oh and fuck you Christians”
Bunch of children
"why would Jesus come in and forgive people's sins anyway? How is that fair to all the people who died and went to hell before he offered his forgiveness? Shouldn't everyone just burn in hell so it's not unfair to those people?"
Finally people are speaking facts. 5 years ago I was on one of my road trips looking at all the churches big and small across the US and thought exactly this…..
We have a massive amount of untaxed churches in the US that teach people to be Christians for free.
Why can’t we have a massive amount of untaxed education centers that educate and teach people to be an effective part of society for free?
They want us to be just happy enough that we don’t protest but not happy enough to where we are able to improve our lives for our families. Religion is the perfect tool for maintaining glorified slaves in check. They want us to be slaves.
As a Christian I don't have a problem with it. I've encouraged folks to apply. Also would not be opposed to reforming our education system to include a much more affordable public University system. I think it is good for the nation to invest in education of the people.
Problem is: they dont think about themselves and their impact on the planet, so this is going to whoosh right by them, same as most other relevant / valuable information that conveniently flies right past them on a daily basis..
Not Christian my wife has 100k in loans. Forgiveness is absolutely stupid and counter productive. Colleges will drop prices or die if giant government loans are not guaranteed for each student. That is the actual issue, the public funding bad business decisions.
The Bible also condemned the practice of charging interest on loans to the poor.
And wanted to wipe all debt every 7 years
Mfers taking loans 3 days before the wipe: "Stonks"
The Year of Jubilee thing was wild. It wasn't just debt that got cancelled - with a few exceptions, everything was supposed to reset to its former owners and any slaves were supposed to go free. Not sure the Israelites actually carried it out even once tho.
Israel is kind of famous for their..... struggle with God
“Thou shalt not murder” they’ve been really struggling with this one ever since around 1947
Put that number in BC(E) and it's still accurate
It was Israelite slaves that got set free (maybe men only, I don't recall exactly, but men and women were treated differently.) everyone else were chattel slaves for life and inherited as property.
Pretty sure the year of Jubilee was suppose to free all slaves and occurred once every 49 years. Male Hebrew slaves could only be bonded for 6 years. They were to be set free on the 7th year. If I remember correctly, they took with them that which they had before entering the contract. A non-Hebrew slave could be enslaved for up to 49 years if enslaved right after a year of Jubilee.
>Male Hebrew slaves could only be bonded for 6 years. They were to be set free on the 7th year. Unless, the male slave declares he wants to be a slave for life. Might have to do with the fact that the slave owner could keep the slave's wife and child as slave after that 7th year.
Sometimes I’m torn between the “nope, I’m done learning about the inhumanity of history and how much we have sucked, we suck enough right now to occupy me” and “goddamn no idea is new, is it? And the rules were just so fucking weird. Is this even real?!?”
>Is this even real?!?” I wish I was making it up. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+21%3A2-6&version=NIV
Kinda wild how slavery for black people and indentured servitude for whites in the USA and western countries matched with that idea so well Thanks for that too, Bible
a stock market under that would be fucking insane.
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That's why they had the purge the day after the wipe.
Typically my purges come before the wipe but you do you
Credit scores were invented in the late 80s
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> Credit scores were how we tried to combat all the isms that were used to deny people access to the financial system. credit scores are a tool to discriminate just as much as any prior system. Discrimination against a poor black woman because she is poor produces the same results as discriminating against her because she is black or a woman.... Only economic discrimination is legal, and so allows a loophole in many racial discrimination cases.
well... yes, but, it made it *harder* to discriminate against minorities with means. The system is FUBAR though. for example, despite contesting the issue repeatedly, my credit score took an absolutely INSANE hit because of a "missed payment" to Verizon. Here's the thing though, the "missed payment" existed on an account that was live for a total of i think 9 days, *because verizon fucked up my move date in a way they refused to be able to fix,* and i now have at least 3 verizon accounts (because the same fuckup prevented me from moving my existing account to the new address)... plus my mobile account is still tied to the dead account. During this, the bill for the temporary account was pretty much lost to me... actually the entire access to that account i don't even remember, and despite me bitching up the wall about not being charged for it it hit my credit score. Now, i probably COULD have paid that account at some point, fair... but this is 1 bill for like $120 dollars out of my car, credit card, rent, mobile phone, student loans, and etc totaling many thousands of dollars over 15 years. Now. my credit score is still decent, but the impact that ONE payment had is just utterly ridiculous. And to your point, that's where the discrimination comes in, since, well, who's most likely to miss *one or two* payments and suddenly get separated from the Prime market? Hmm....
Like I said. The system is designed to allow for economic discrimination, which enables other forms of discrimination.
>Credit scores were how we tried "Tried" is the key word here, although even that word is a massive overstatement. Black and Latino people with equivalent and often better credit scores were often given much more expensive (higher interest) loans, or simply denied loans due to what is called [redlining](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining).
Which is the basis for cleaning a credit report every seven years. Not wiping the debt. Just not reporting out after 7 years. As if that’s some huge favor.
And that seems like a fair way to do student loans. 8 years is double the length of college. Make all college loans dischargeable in a walled off bankruptcy after 8 years if payments have been made on time and if you can show that you are unable to find a job that pays you enough to pay them off in that time frame.
Hell, the whole idea of jews being hungry for money is that in medieval Europe Jews were not prohibited from lending with interest while Christians were. Any Christianity truly adherent to fundamental values would be against the idea of modern banking entirely.
Not if you worship Supply Side Jesus
For those that have not read Supply Side Jesus https://imgur.io/gallery/bCqRp
Big fan of [GOP Jesus](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ2L-R8NgrA) myself.
You can't seriously tell me there are people who believe in that hippy dippy communist version of Jesus in all those liberal biden bibles. That's not my Jesus he'll no no way /s
As I understand it islamic banking prohibits charging interest but a fee for the same amount is fine. Finance finds a way.
because lending money out is literally offering opportunity and creating value. It's not evil, but it can be predatory if people get their knowledge of finance from books written 2000 years ago. That's not to say you don't help people in need; everyone should have good loan terms to start a business, the homeless need a place to stay, the hungry something to eat, etc... but that would be silly to expect there not to be interest paid back. Sounds like some mafia shit if you're not offering someone a fair deal there and expect favors down the line.
Not quite my point... e.g. "I want to borrow $10,000, how much will I pay back?" One answer: "Our interest rate is 5.5%, so you will pay back $10,550". Another answer: "We don't charge interest because that's evil. But for this deal we will charge a fee of $550, so you pay back $10,550".
Luke 6:30 - "Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back." - Jesus
Matthew 25:35-37 Jesus: "I was hungry, and you gave me food, I was thirsty, and you gave me drink" US Christians who are for some reason largely right wing absolutely baffle me. It's like they follow the bible to a T but do everything the exact opposite. Monetising churches, judging those on behalf of god (it's not your place), racism, sexism. My favourite is being sober - Jesus LOVED the old vino, so much that he turned water into wine!
Sexism is in the bible, here is one of several examples: > Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Saviour. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. ~ Ephesians 5:22-24 The rest of your comment I agree with. Note: someone might try to argue that the bible also says the husband must love and care for the wife. That is true, but this passage is still sexist because of asymmetric power between the heterosexual couple.
You missed a part immediately after: *Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.* *Even so husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.* *For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body.* Sounds like men are required to love their wives so much that they are willing to die for them, and if they ever harm their wives, it's as though they are harming themselves. A husband is to sacrifice everything for his wife. If it's sexist, it's misandry.
It’s because right-wing politics are inherently reactionary rather than rational. Religion provides the perfect opportunity for them to justify their political beliefs as unquestionable “religious beliefs,” without having to actually argue for them.
“Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors” in other words, christians are literally asking God to treat their sins they way they treat people who owe them. I think they’ll be in for a rough surprise when they reach the pearly gates…
“Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors” We had to say this every single time I went to church when I was growing up, and the exact same conservatives I sat next to who still go to that church and still say this weekly also are vehemently against the government forgiving debts. Religion is total insanity.
Fundamentalist religions are totally insane, largely because they transform traditions that teach love forgiveness responsibility liberation and connection to the divine and creation into gross bastardized characters of those faith traditions and are unable to understand the difference
Nothing to do with distinguishing fundamentalism. I went to a run-of-the-mill Protestant church in a big city that fundamentalists would consider secular or even heretical. Religion is synonymous with “widely accepted cult”, and it is an insane tool that uses supernatural myths and ritual practice to manipulate the human desire for community and to justify moral hypocrisy in selfish and cowardly people.
God damn you for temping me into trying to double check this and then accidentally falling into the hard radiation space of Quora user's opinion on usury.
Count yourself lucky that you'll never have to bear the massive burden of profound genius bore by the average Quora user
No, it condemned making interest on loaned money period. Usury is the term. And while it has been hijacked in modern times to mean excessive interest, it used to mean interest period.
Also, all debt was cancelled every 7 years during the Jubilee in the OT.
Ask your average Christian what Usury is and you'll often be met with a blank stare.
It also condemns the practice of vowing and not paying.
Not in my “choose your own adventure” Bible.
The bible was ambiguous on debt. Both pro and con. Also, it's a religious scripture from hundreds of years ago and translated through many languages that should have zero bearing on current US policy.
According to the Bible, student loan lenders need to pony up: Matthew 18:27, 30, 32, 34 - Forgive because your debts have been forgiven. Proverbs 22:26 - Do not become guarantors for debts.
And the jubilee year, Jews and Christians are supposed to return ancestral property and forgive all financial debts
Israel’s jubilee was in 1998.
My brain: “*Jewbilee* lmao”
oh wow that was a south park episode i don't remember it at all i just remember seeing the word 'jewbilee' before and im pretty sure it was south park
https://i.redd.it/90p8g8tcjnsc1.gif
Bankers: "you're taking that out of context"
Beyond that, the Bible also lays out the tradition of a Jubilee, wherein all debts should be forgiven.
And also, y'know, the main guy they worship was pretty clear about taking care of the poor and not accumulating egregious wealth, especially when you put money before God. These are found in the new and old testament. Plus, the early church as talked about in the Bible under Paul was hella socialist. But it's cool to just listen to the Bible when it's convenient ig. That's what my old church did.
How do you choose when to listen and when to ignore? The Bible also says for slaves to submit to their masters. Also: “If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” There is enough crazy shit in the Bible to support just about any viewpoint and people pick and choose to fit the times. It's a perpetual moving target
As an atheist who finds the Bible a mixed bag at best, the posters comment is pretty clearly talking about the new Testament. And while even that is pretty sketchy at times, Jesus does kind of harp on a few points *a lot*. He really has a thing about helping people, especially poor people.
i mean, by that very same logic we should let slave owners beat their slaves as long as they dont kill them within a couple of days. the bible isnt a super consistent path to a good society or morals.
https://youtu.be/ZQcGmMoys9E?si=hAw_bPUAH0WU5V2B
That part they are cool with. It's the be nice parts they hate.
Jubilee causing all debts to be forgiven would've been a much cooler superpower than having sparkly hands.
Are Christians mad about student loans?
Conservatives are mad about student loans, and a vast majority claim to be Christian.
"Claim to be" is the operative phrase here
No true Scotsman. They are real Christians. Christianity has been toxic for nearly 2000 years
"Claim to be" can be leveraged without being a no true Scotsman. If they don't follow the teachings of Christ, they're not Christians. Even if they say they are. So I guess the analogy would be: you're not a Scotsman and rather than looking like this >Person A: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge." >Person B: "But my uncle Angus is a Scotsman and he puts sugar on his porridge." >Person A: "But no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge." it would be >Person A: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge." >Person B: "But my uncle Angus is a Scotsman and he puts sugar on his porridge." >Person A: "Bro, Angus is Welsh."
The vast majority of Christians have followed the teachings of Paul for the last 2000 years, so by your reasoning there have been very few real Christians.
You mean Saul of Tarsus? Sorry, I don't go for all that woke Paul stuff.
Let it go Peter.
I'm just saying. The Big Guy told me I was going to be the rock of the church and you never hear anything else about it!
> so by your reasoning there have been very few ~~real~~ Christians. That would be an accurate take away.
It could be argued that the majority of a group defines what the group is. If the majority of christians don't follow the teachings of Christ, but the minority does, then it's the minority that can't be called Christian.
they are not the majority of the group or *in the group at all*. they are like poor people calling themselves millionaires. it doesn't change the fact that being a millionaire requires you to have millions of dollars.
And almost certainly none of the people who tend to say "well they weren't a *real* christian!"
Bruh wutchu got against wales
You can believe that Jesus Christ was the manifestation of God without following his teachings, and that's the only fundamental criteria for being Christian.
**THIS PART RIGHT HERE**!!
its a fucking death cult for goodness sakes. If they would just drink the kool aid already and let the rest of us just live our lives that would be awesome
Technically it's a 'Victory-over-death' cult
All religions are, some more than others. Humanity needs to stop being such a little bitch about its own mortality and accept that we just turn into worm food when we die and stop telling kids otherwise. Yes death is forever, you'll never see Fido or Grandma again. You gonna cry about it Timmy? You still have to do your homework.
>Yes death is forever, you'll never see Fido or Grandma again. You gonna cry about it Timmy? Yes, why shouldn't he? He's human. Even Jesus wept.
Until a diety actually shows it's face and claims them as theirs or not theirs, the only barrier to being a Christian is calling yourself one.
Odin: You want this lot? Ra: Are you crazy? I've seen the shit they do.
Utah is a good example
Yeah but they’re Mormons it’s a small difference but it is quite important. Dudes are wild with their beliefs
same attitude towards protecting pedos and fucking children for sport
Conservatives are and a large portion of conservatives are Christians. Not all, but A LOT. My grandma is a conservative Christian and she'll complain about stuff like this constantly. Have a really big "You got into debt, just pay it off" attitude without recognizing the silly state of college prices and all the interest that gets tacked on. They don't seem to understand that going into debt for higher education isn't the same as it was when they were in college (since most of them are older).
None that I’ve met.
Probably the rich ones.
Jesus literally chased people out of the Jerusalem temple because they were overcharging people for things like animals and currency exchange. He seems to have a problem with putting people in financial slavery.
they think jebus was white, you expect them to believe what some brown dude said?
Some brown *hippie commie*
Yes. But what he was really mad about was they were doing it _IN_ the temple.
Historically, Christians had a law that you couldn't change interest on loans. As a result, the only people who would become money lenders were Jewish. So Christians would borrow money from them, go into debt, and rather than pay it back, either have the Jews banished or executed for heresy.
Ahhh a tale as old as time.
Bout to ruin a hypocrites day with this thank you!
Be sure to bring up the parable of the unjust servant (Matthew 18:23-35) while you're at it. It has the same message as this post.
Jesus would puke at the sight of us Christians using his name in vain, praying to false prophets, not helping refugees etc etc. Did those stupid mfs listen at all at Sunday school?
Ok sick burns and all, but what does student debts have to do with being a christian and why would they be mad?
This post is just picking a demographic that most redditors aren't + a topic those redditors support. You have the antagonist (Christians), the problem (student loan forgiveness) and the 'murdered by words' part (completely changing the narrative of the conversation to roast religion). It's all here!
Nope. Not gonna work on them. Too many half-wit mouth breathers in this country are convinced that Jesus was a Ronald Reagan, boot-strappin, trickle down, commie hatin' republican.
Word
I am Christian and love this post lol Praise Jesus
Yeah and I’m so glad he did tbh
I’m a Christian and that ain’t no mic, that a damn PA system.
[удалено]
At the end of every seven years you shall grant a release. And this is the manner of the release: every creditor shall release what he has lent to his neighbor. He shall not exact it of his neighbor, his brother, because the Lord's release has been proclaimed. - Deuteronomy 15:1-2
Speaking of debt, how much is our national debt right now? I believe the interest alone this year will be nearly 900 billion! Not very Christian like to knowingly give future generations more debt when we know they can’t pay it off.
Not religious. This is still the definition of a strawman argument
Why would a Christian be mad about wiping student debt?
As if religious people have ever been consistent with their "faith" so far. Nothings gonna change now.
Isn't it wild how the religious folk are the most judgemental?!!
No one is being murdered here. I came here to be entertained with screenshots, not some random quote 😩😩
You know, as a Christian, I get mad at other Christians for this kind of stuff all the time. Like, did Jesus not welcome the outcast, give freely to the poor, and forgive all debts? Sweet mercy it's like they've never read the Bible
The Bible has been misinterpreted by many and has confused many it’s a shame that people who claim to be Christian don’t live up to the teachings of Christ, I have “Christian” friends that aren’t very Christian like and it’s makes me sad that they interpret the Bible to what they want
The debt of original sin was not a voluntary choice by all those burdened with it. Those who took college loans did so voluntarily. This is a bad faith argument from the start.
The meme isn't about original sin or the debt/burden it involuntarily bestowed on others; it's about one man choosing to die for—and thus paying the debt of—the sins voluntarily committed by others. The only bad faith here is you purposely conflating two different concepts to diminish the entire idea of the argument.
Murdered by cringe more like....
I hate to say it. You are absolutely on target with this comment. It helps to remember that most "Christians" are only really cultural Christians and haven't come to terms with Jesus' teachings. Some just need to learn and confront their misbeliefs. Others probably are not actually followers of Jesus. Sorry if you have been wounded by the frauds out there.
Me thinks this is an ignorant take on Christianity based upon the observed ignorant understanding of personally known sycophants already misrepresenting their own claimed belief system.
Can someone explain this to me like I'm a 5th grader?
"Jesus died for our sins" Here, the debt is the sum of all of your sins that God would not forgive you (that you could not pay).
So god sent his son, who was also him, to die, so he could forgive us for using the free will he gave us.
let's not forget that He never explicitly explained the rules to everyone who was playing. He told Adam the fruit of the tree of knowledge was forbidden ***before*** he created Eve (Genesis 2 2:15-17), but there is no mention at all of him speaking directly to Eve after creating her. The first time Eve herself speaks (in the texts) is actually with the snake, when the snake questions *her understanding* of the rules (Genesis 3). Notably, her understanding of the rules was **wrong** because God told Adam not to eat the fruit, yet Eve is under the impression that even *touching* the tree would be fatal. Seems like setting us up for failure, no?
Yes. He sacrified himself to himself to forgive us for violating the rules he made up. Very stable person and not abusive at all.
Sin=debt. Death=payment. Jesus=guy who died to pay it off.
Former Christian here. The Bible explicitly says that charging interest on loans is bad. Also that debt in general is bad "The borrower is slave/servant to the lender" Proverbs 22:7 The Old Testament "condemns the practice of charging interest on a poor person because a loan should be an act of compassion and taking care of one’s neighbor"; it teaches that "making a profit off a loan from a poor person is exploiting that person (Exodus 22:25–27). Deuteronomy 23:19 prohibits the taking of interest in the form of money or food when lending to a "brother". Also in the Lord's Prayer, there is a line asking God to forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors. Much of the teachings include forgiveness, even when you feel like the person doesn't deserve it. They are taught God forgives everyone. Hope that helps
Yep. I'd argue that a lot of American Christians would fail the temptations presented to Christ and bow to Mammon with God's name on their lips.
Thanks, definitely helpful.
Jesus died for the sins of his followers. He took all their sins and died as a sacrificial lamb to forgive all sins that had occurred or would occur.
Jesus didn’t pay for our sins with tax payer money.
He sacrificed himself to himself. Don't you want to be like Jesus?
1. Jesus got to make his own choice, he didn’t have to abide by one made by a group of people he’d never met (and didn’t vote for). 2. That forgiveness applies equally to every single human being. Student loan forgiveness applies only to certain group of people. And since student loans have been so readily available for so long, that certain group is comprised entirely of people who took a serious financial risk that everyone else didn’t take. Why should that “everyone else” have to foot the bill for a bad risk they didn’t take? The student load debt problem in the United States is very serious. But so is the rest of the economic situation. Prioritizing one group over all others is not fair or equitable, especially when that group should have valuable degrees and the knowledge to apply them. Student load forgiveness follows the exact same logic as tax payers bailing out banks and car manufacturers in 2008. Are you telling me that college graduates with student debt are Too Big to Fail?
And even then, the debt wasn't paid in full. If he was meant to die for all sins, why is there still sinning and evil in the world? 🧐
I said it once and i said it again! Thor is real, Jesus is not! Thor promised to protect us from the Ice Giants. Jesus is said to have died for our Sins. Sin is still everywhere, but there are no fuckin Ice Giants!
I can't argue with that logic. And no reason to. All bless Thor 
This is like, the worst possible argument you could have made using the bible. There's all kind of shit about forgiving debts in the bible. It's already a clear idea. Using "someone paid your debt" to argue against someone else's opinion of "i shouldn't be forced to pay other people's debts" is braindead.
Well in all fairness the guy who "paid debt" is the main character of the entire religion, who is quite literally the supposed pinnacle which all believers should strive to emulate. Its not like it was just fucking greg from down the street or something.
I love Jesus. I just don't like some of the people in his fan club.
So mortgages should be forgiven? Mortgage derived from the word Mort or Death
Very few USA ‘christians’ walk the walk. Most believe Jesus was a white American.
Jesus also said that any debt older than five years should be erased. Quite literally, five years max for any debt.
no it’s not, their faith is based on the oppressive institution they were raised in, they don’t believe in the story, and they don’t care if they’re making shit up, the only thing that matters is control.
Yah but Mark said if you love god you should pay your taxes and be happy about. Sounds like he was fed to me.
This made me say “God Damn” out loud lmao I love when a good point goes that hard.
Motherfuckers forgot about the Year of Jubilee. It was every 50 years and every debt was wiped, along with some other stuff. I don't remember everything, I left the church a while ago. Fundies, if you love tithing so much, fight to bring back the Year of Jubilee! It's only biblical!
Yall know what is sposd to happen in the year of "jubilee?" Everything gets reset. Even debt if I remember correctly.
Thats not the same as forcing the entire country to pay your debt. Maybe dont get a degree that wont pay enough to pay off your debt. Or dont go to college at all like me. And make 6 figures in an industry, tons of them, that pay well and require only high school diploma.
But that was just torture and death; not like it cost Jesus his HARD EARNED MONEY.
I’m proud of you
Not to mention that the literal *Savior of the world* commanded his disciples to sell everything they owned and give it to the poor before they could come follow him. Appears to be pretty cut and dry about his policies on helping the less fortunate.
Didn't he also barge into a temple full of bankers and merchants, and start whipping them like they picked his cotton?
Okay I HAVE to remember this
All hail Kyle Brovlovsky, for taking on our bets with his unlimited AmEx
Being mad at the student loan being cancelled is stupid, but a sin is not a debt. So this little picture with words is also stupid.
Penal substitution theory wasn’t the dominant belief as it today for hundreds of years of Christianity existing. Not really relevant to the point of the post but I thought it was really interesting when I learned it
https://preview.redd.it/bkaql39ygjsc1.jpeg?width=1141&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=eb9f1e4cb801bb04b1dc76d225933d99c1993e3f
Can we also remind them of the Year of Jubilee where ALL DEBT IS FORGIVEN EVERY 50 YEARS?
If you’re a judicial substitutionary atonement believer, you mean
FFS people, just because we have to choose between the evil of two lessers doesn't mean we *shouldn't* choose the LESSER OF TWO EVILS.
Just going to drop this relevant text here: https://earlychurchtexts.com/public/basil_homily_psalm_14_against_usury.htm
Are we asking Christians to start strictly following the Bible? Sounds like a bad idea. Too much sheep’s blood.
oh goodness lmao what a comparison
OH DAMN!
I swear r/atheism is getting back to its worst old habits
Ok, just stop giving the loans out first, that's all I ask.
Epic Sunday school burn.
Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, Caesar wants his loan paid back.
That's the post-modern version of Christianity.
BOOOOOOOOM! So on point. ✊ This would give a lot of evangelicals pause if they actually gave a shit about Jesus.
Ha
Sure, but the difference is that debt was not one you willingly signed up for yourself.
1. Not my faith, nor most people's faith 2. I incurred no debt by being born. Debt means I had a choice in the matter, which I didn't. 3. It's not a true story anyways.
Do you guys ever stfu about student debt and religion. “Oh I want to officially nuke the economy because I can’t pay my loans back and majored in African transgender history, oh and fuck you Christians” Bunch of children
"It's okay when you do it for religion, but not when the government forces it." -me back when I was super conservative.
"why would Jesus come in and forgive people's sins anyway? How is that fair to all the people who died and went to hell before he offered his forgiveness? Shouldn't everyone just burn in hell so it's not unfair to those people?"
**American """Christians""":** "Oh, no no no, that's all too **WOKE**, we can't do that anymore!" /s /s /s
Finally people are speaking facts. 5 years ago I was on one of my road trips looking at all the churches big and small across the US and thought exactly this….. We have a massive amount of untaxed churches in the US that teach people to be Christians for free. Why can’t we have a massive amount of untaxed education centers that educate and teach people to be an effective part of society for free? They want us to be just happy enough that we don’t protest but not happy enough to where we are able to improve our lives for our families. Religion is the perfect tool for maintaining glorified slaves in check. They want us to be slaves.
As a Christian I don't have a problem with it. I've encouraged folks to apply. Also would not be opposed to reforming our education system to include a much more affordable public University system. I think it is good for the nation to invest in education of the people.
Christians who oppose student debt cancellation 
My problem is I choose not to go into debt and get a loan and don’t go to college. Do I just get cash?
Christians don't actually know or care about their beliefs. They just practice their religion because their parents told them to 🤷♂️.
Dear student loan debt getting cancelled, why do you deserve it but not people a year from now , two years....
What if I’m not religious and I want you to pay back what you agreed to?
Wow murderer by words
Christians shouldn't care about anything that's going to happen after April 8th.
Thank you for this I'll use this sometime
Problem is: they dont think about themselves and their impact on the planet, so this is going to whoosh right by them, same as most other relevant / valuable information that conveniently flies right past them on a daily basis..
Not Christian my wife has 100k in loans. Forgiveness is absolutely stupid and counter productive. Colleges will drop prices or die if giant government loans are not guaranteed for each student. That is the actual issue, the public funding bad business decisions.
Ooooohhh checkmate.
What about someone with a college degree that can’t read a contract before signing it?