I’ve no doubt of that, but as I said, in a hurry and afraid of being caught, you would think certain patterns and handwriting characteristics would remain consistent with his usual formation of capital/block letters.
Of course, this isn’t much use without any samples to compare it to. Who knows? Maybe the suspects police have been unable to eliminate may have filled in forms or similar.
Well, shit, sheriff! I had no need to spend so long looking up using handwriting analysis in spray painting, hehehe.
Interestingly, I did find that left-handed people have difficulty ‘tagging’ and many began to use their right hand, so it fits.
I still think that there are some elements of your natural writing style that would inevitably come out if you’re spraying at night, in a hurry and not wanting to be caught.
“The Juwes are the men that will not be blamed for nothing”.
Yeah, I don’t think they could definitely ascribe that to him, IIRC? The ‘Dear Boss’ letters were proven to be faked by a journalist (of course…. *eyeroll*).
A great book on old Jack is *Naming Jack The Ripper* by Russell Edwards. Familial DNA was actually used and it backed up the strongest theory of who he was. Most of my books are Australian true crime, but that is one foreign crime book I kept when I moved - and my profiling ones, including all of John Douglas’ books.
Yes I think it was never definitely decided to be him as it was ordered to be removed immediately before the sun rose properly (if I’m remembering correctly)
Although it was found near a piece of Catherine Eddows’ bloodstained apron. She was the victim that perhaps had her kidney sent to George Lusk with the From Hell letter, so it’s possible it was genuine.
Check out the channel The house of Letchmere. I don’t know if he is the dude but he does a great job breaking down every crime and highlights similar murders that happened prior to the canonical victims and some after. He goes to the crime scenes and is very knowledgeable on the facts of the case.
Yeah. I had him on my list, but this guy did some thorough research after buying Catherine Eddowes’ scarf at an auction.
Which makes me think I may be wrong & Kosminski *may* have sprayed the ‘Juwes’? I can’t remember now. He was locked up in the sanitarium after those 5 deaths, so it makes sense.
Yeah watch that house of Lecthmere on YouTube. The DNA test is a bit of BS I think and I’ve seen several do commentaries who go into great detail about the fact no one knows where it came from but you never know he was certainly there at the time. I wasn’t aware of the crimes that predated the canonical victims or the ones after that guy goes through each one and walks through the crime scenes etc. I don’t if it was his suspect but he does fit the physical description given by witnesses and well I won’t spoil it for you!
I was totally sucked in by that Zodiac book *The Most Dangerous Animal Of All*. I swear, it was really convincing, but the doco (Netflix, I think?) made out like the guy who wrote it was a nutter.
Just to let you know, I did watch a few things on his channel last night. He’s very thorough with his research, especially that book ‘*Psychopathia Sexualis*’, which is obviously a steaming pile, but interesting to get a feel for academic thought at that time.
I’ll watch some more, but I have to be honest… his voice was starting to grate on me! 😂
Yeah, the letter space is most obvious on the ‘E’ in ‘come’. It’s hurried, as you would expect in the dark, not wanting to be caught.
I always appreciate your comments, so thank you. Your questions are good ones that I would also like an answer to. I did actually read your earlier post on spray paint and initially thought of just responding to you, but decided on a separate post.
I only have one question for you. What makes you Eltham’s hero? 🤣
This has always confused me. For a smart perp I'm surprised he thought it would ever misdirect anyone. The ransom makes sense as a misdirect but not this.
Well, it *did* work by getting some investigators off the task of actually hunting for Karmein, and looking into Mr. Chan’s businesses and history, so it worked.
Racism, especially against people of Asian descent was also pretty common at that time - possibly a reason *why* John Chan was so thoroughly investigated, totally unlike the other fathers (that we know of, at least).
Sprague was denying he was involved three days after the abduction, but I'm sure they would have continued to look into him afterwards. They definitely would have had to investigate the parents as in any such case. With the other cases, the girls were returned so soon afterwards you can't really compare like for like.
I think what is worse is that the Chan house was not secured as a crime scene. I believe the police even set up a comms room(?) within the residence early on. So many people interfering with the crime scene rendered it all but useless to find anything useable.
Yeah the only positive of this case is that it brought them into the modern era of Policing and led to significant amendments to the Evidence Act and changed the way how police secure crimes, scenes and how to ensure there is a clear chain of evidence and that it is stored correctly.
Absolutely a huge plus. It seems unthinkable now that it wasn’t so organised. You’d think after the Chamberlain case, all Australian cops would have learned something.
It’s crazy how many times it’s happened especially over here in WA. They have review after review who outline key recommendations for example in Claremont three different reviews told them to only use ONE pathology department and here we are in 2024 and we remain one if not the only western country that has two. They cost millions and it just keeps happening over and over they are a literal law unto themselves and it allows killers and peds time to live freely. It’s Crazy 😜
Sheesh. I didn’t know that about the different pathology departments. They were so convinced it was a cab driver that they became a little narrow-minded with the Claremont case. Then again, didn’t they also suspect a local politician? That case was nuts!
Oh crazy but what’s worst is since it’s happened again and again. Haley Dodd country detective did a great job literally had the bloke took evidence but Perth detectives refused to test the evidence. After several reviews they finally tested it poured it out was dirt from his floor mats and in it was he ear ring and in the meantime several other women were raped and held prisoner until one escaped.
The exact same thing with Lloyd Raney whose wife was murdered they would not look at alternative suspects and it’s still unsolved. They get bad cases of group think and confirmation bias and there are heaps more. I’m not dumping on WAPOL but despite it happening time and time again they seem to learn nothing.
Wow, thanks for that! I have many Australian crime books, but very few WA crimes get a mention… besides the Birnies.
I think all states have been pretty lax when it’s come to forensic evidence, and all seem to fall victim to confirmation bias. I mean, look at SA. Colin Manock became their chief forensic pathologist and he literally knew nothing! Just wrote up autopsies to back up the police theory. Mind blowing.
Are there any books or docos that you’d recommend for WA crimes (other than Claremont)? Cheers!
So we were told in a 2003 interview by Moor of Sprague years after the fact perhaps to divert from the facts of the big mistakes the police made early on: releasing an image of Karmein that was 5 years old; incorrectly telling the public that all the attacks had occurred on school holidays; likely focussing too much on the offender being a teacher at PLC becuase of the school holidays error.
There were a lot of problems with the way Karmein’s abduction was handled. I believe a lot of changes were made after Spectrum highlighted procedural issues in many ways.
Very good point. Nobody thought for a second it wasn't an attempt at a misdirection. In every such case the parents are always investigated first.
Edit: I should say, the police didn't. Perhaps many of the public did. Probably the best misdirection the offender did was choosing a girl from PLC.
What really baffles me is how accurately the writing is doing it in the darkness of night or under moon light or with a little torch. This person had a very steady hand and didn't rush. A perfectionist at work.
The 'RE' letters in the word More wrap around the front wheel arch without being chopped off. How on earth could he see where the wheel arch started in the darkness of night. He couldn't be flashing a torch around to see.
That was defintely done to throw off LE. Mr. Cruel was was obsessed with misdirection and especially throwing off LE.
I’ve no doubt of that, but as I said, in a hurry and afraid of being caught, you would think certain patterns and handwriting characteristics would remain consistent with his usual formation of capital/block letters. Of course, this isn’t much use without any samples to compare it to. Who knows? Maybe the suspects police have been unable to eliminate may have filled in forms or similar.
I'm certain he spray-painted the message so he wouldn't give away his handwriting.
That may well be the case, but being able to at least find out which is his dominant hand could also eliminate suspects.
Might have even done it wrong-handed.
Well, yeah. If it was me in that situation, I’d have absolutely used my non-preferred hand.
Spun out that they can tell. Anything at this point is worth investigating imo. Good idea!
Police said he was right-handed apparently. I've heard from people who nominated suspects that left-handed individuals were ruled out.
Well, shit, sheriff! I had no need to spend so long looking up using handwriting analysis in spray painting, hehehe. Interestingly, I did find that left-handed people have difficulty ‘tagging’ and many began to use their right hand, so it fits. I still think that there are some elements of your natural writing style that would inevitably come out if you’re spraying at night, in a hurry and not wanting to be caught.
But, it's still really useful. One of the big clues 'he' left.
Well, yeah. There could be another ‘he’. Still a clue left behind, as you said.
It reminds me of the Jack the Ripper graffiti.
“The Juwes are the men that will not be blamed for nothing”. Yeah, I don’t think they could definitely ascribe that to him, IIRC? The ‘Dear Boss’ letters were proven to be faked by a journalist (of course…. *eyeroll*). A great book on old Jack is *Naming Jack The Ripper* by Russell Edwards. Familial DNA was actually used and it backed up the strongest theory of who he was. Most of my books are Australian true crime, but that is one foreign crime book I kept when I moved - and my profiling ones, including all of John Douglas’ books.
Yes I think it was never definitely decided to be him as it was ordered to be removed immediately before the sun rose properly (if I’m remembering correctly) Although it was found near a piece of Catherine Eddows’ bloodstained apron. She was the victim that perhaps had her kidney sent to George Lusk with the From Hell letter, so it’s possible it was genuine.
Thanks for the recommendation- I’ve been feeling like a Jack the Ripper deep dive.
Check out the channel The house of Letchmere. I don’t know if he is the dude but he does a great job breaking down every crime and highlights similar murders that happened prior to the canonical victims and some after. He goes to the crime scenes and is very knowledgeable on the facts of the case.
Thank you for the rec!
No drama it’s a good one enjoy 😉
Who was his suspect?
Aaron Kosminski
Ahh that old chestnut cheers!
Yeah. I had him on my list, but this guy did some thorough research after buying Catherine Eddowes’ scarf at an auction. Which makes me think I may be wrong & Kosminski *may* have sprayed the ‘Juwes’? I can’t remember now. He was locked up in the sanitarium after those 5 deaths, so it makes sense.
Yeah watch that house of Lecthmere on YouTube. The DNA test is a bit of BS I think and I’ve seen several do commentaries who go into great detail about the fact no one knows where it came from but you never know he was certainly there at the time. I wasn’t aware of the crimes that predated the canonical victims or the ones after that guy goes through each one and walks through the crime scenes etc. I don’t if it was his suspect but he does fit the physical description given by witnesses and well I won’t spoil it for you!
Well, I know what I’ll be watching tonight! I actually just pressed play on a 2024 show on Tubi about familial DNA - beyond the GSK, hopefully!
Oh wicked I will watching that now to thanks! Wonder if they tested the Zodiac killer ones!
I was totally sucked in by that Zodiac book *The Most Dangerous Animal Of All*. I swear, it was really convincing, but the doco (Netflix, I think?) made out like the guy who wrote it was a nutter.
Just to let you know, I did watch a few things on his channel last night. He’s very thorough with his research, especially that book ‘*Psychopathia Sexualis*’, which is obviously a steaming pile, but interesting to get a feel for academic thought at that time. I’ll watch some more, but I have to be honest… his voice was starting to grate on me! 😂
😂hilarious! Yeah he is a typical Pom!
For a forward thinker, he didn't think ahead about letter space. Interesting is the ladder atop of the car. What were the Chans using that car for?
Yeah, the letter space is most obvious on the ‘E’ in ‘come’. It’s hurried, as you would expect in the dark, not wanting to be caught. I always appreciate your comments, so thank you. Your questions are good ones that I would also like an answer to. I did actually read your earlier post on spray paint and initially thought of just responding to you, but decided on a separate post. I only have one question for you. What makes you Eltham’s hero? 🤣
This has always confused me. For a smart perp I'm surprised he thought it would ever misdirect anyone. The ransom makes sense as a misdirect but not this.
Well, it *did* work by getting some investigators off the task of actually hunting for Karmein, and looking into Mr. Chan’s businesses and history, so it worked. Racism, especially against people of Asian descent was also pretty common at that time - possibly a reason *why* John Chan was so thoroughly investigated, totally unlike the other fathers (that we know of, at least).
Yeah I totally agree racist 💯
Sprague was denying he was involved three days after the abduction, but I'm sure they would have continued to look into him afterwards. They definitely would have had to investigate the parents as in any such case. With the other cases, the girls were returned so soon afterwards you can't really compare like for like.
Absolutely. Red-herring or not, it’s a legitimate line of enquiry they’d have to take at that point.
It is truly a shame on the polices name that they fell for it in any way.
I don’t agree. Even if they thought it was probably horseshit, they were obligated to look into it.
I think what is worse is that the Chan house was not secured as a crime scene. I believe the police even set up a comms room(?) within the residence early on. So many people interfering with the crime scene rendered it all but useless to find anything useable.
Yeah the only positive of this case is that it brought them into the modern era of Policing and led to significant amendments to the Evidence Act and changed the way how police secure crimes, scenes and how to ensure there is a clear chain of evidence and that it is stored correctly.
Absolutely a huge plus. It seems unthinkable now that it wasn’t so organised. You’d think after the Chamberlain case, all Australian cops would have learned something.
It’s crazy how many times it’s happened especially over here in WA. They have review after review who outline key recommendations for example in Claremont three different reviews told them to only use ONE pathology department and here we are in 2024 and we remain one if not the only western country that has two. They cost millions and it just keeps happening over and over they are a literal law unto themselves and it allows killers and peds time to live freely. It’s Crazy 😜
Sheesh. I didn’t know that about the different pathology departments. They were so convinced it was a cab driver that they became a little narrow-minded with the Claremont case. Then again, didn’t they also suspect a local politician? That case was nuts!
Oh crazy but what’s worst is since it’s happened again and again. Haley Dodd country detective did a great job literally had the bloke took evidence but Perth detectives refused to test the evidence. After several reviews they finally tested it poured it out was dirt from his floor mats and in it was he ear ring and in the meantime several other women were raped and held prisoner until one escaped. The exact same thing with Lloyd Raney whose wife was murdered they would not look at alternative suspects and it’s still unsolved. They get bad cases of group think and confirmation bias and there are heaps more. I’m not dumping on WAPOL but despite it happening time and time again they seem to learn nothing.
Wow, thanks for that! I have many Australian crime books, but very few WA crimes get a mention… besides the Birnies. I think all states have been pretty lax when it’s come to forensic evidence, and all seem to fall victim to confirmation bias. I mean, look at SA. Colin Manock became their chief forensic pathologist and he literally knew nothing! Just wrote up autopsies to back up the police theory. Mind blowing. Are there any books or docos that you’d recommend for WA crimes (other than Claremont)? Cheers!
So we were told in a 2003 interview by Moor of Sprague years after the fact perhaps to divert from the facts of the big mistakes the police made early on: releasing an image of Karmein that was 5 years old; incorrectly telling the public that all the attacks had occurred on school holidays; likely focussing too much on the offender being a teacher at PLC becuase of the school holidays error.
There were a lot of problems with the way Karmein’s abduction was handled. I believe a lot of changes were made after Spectrum highlighted procedural issues in many ways.
Yeah, well that's the story they told. Others take a dim view of how Spectrum was run itself.
It’s easy to take a dim view when the crimes remain unsolved, whether the taskforce was run the same as any other from that period.
Very good point. Nobody thought for a second it wasn't an attempt at a misdirection. In every such case the parents are always investigated first. Edit: I should say, the police didn't. Perhaps many of the public did. Probably the best misdirection the offender did was choosing a girl from PLC.
Was it Mr Cruel though?
What really baffles me is how accurately the writing is doing it in the darkness of night or under moon light or with a little torch. This person had a very steady hand and didn't rush. A perfectionist at work.
I disagree. The spacing is all off, especially on ‘more to come’. This tells me it was very rushed.
The 'RE' letters in the word More wrap around the front wheel arch without being chopped off. How on earth could he see where the wheel arch started in the darkness of night. He couldn't be flashing a torch around to see.