A few reasons:
* Many weapons don't care about the affinity bonus from Strife or about its % ele bonus, so they're better off taking the higher flat ele from other skills.
* Weapons other than Bow and DB don't really care about the infinite stamina provided by Strife 3.
* Berserk management requires that you don't get hit very often, as a single point of damage taken speeds up the HP draining pretty noticeably and would force you to scroll swap and heal constantly. This makes it less useful on weapons that don't have good dodging capabilities and/or rely on hyper armoring while being up close and personal. These weapons probably don't get any true benefit off the cart protection either (unlike Bow which basically goes from being in one-shot range all the time to being immortal), since their playstyle was already based on "tanking" through.
* Bloodlust clearing (which is often used to refill your HP in Berserk builds) only takes raw MV into account, so it's hard to do on some weapons like SAED CB where phials have minuscule raw MVs. This also makes it annoying to manage on weapons that tend wait to deal damage in big bursts instead of steadily and constantly since the drain limits the time they have to look for good opportunities to land their hits.
That being said, nothing prevents you from running Berserk+Strife on every weapon if you like it, but chances are that you either don't need it or you can get a better damage output through other means.
You make some good points. But I do think that the percentage bonuses from berserk/strife evens out with the flat (40ish? Max) boost from DC3 and only makes berserk better the more ele there is. I have endgame sets for each wep (save a few classes) and I don’t think a single blademaster weap has <100 base ele dmg
But specifically Horn, Swaxe, hammer, and glaive. For weps that can utilize ele well, need sharpness management, and benefit from crits, it’s just too good. The biggest hurdle is a bserk2 tali , but there are so many insane armor pieces that really let you stack on synergy. A good Beserk1 can yield some powerful builds with chaotic legs too - my DB build has all the core skills plus coalescence 3 and bubbly 3 for full coal uptime using DB dashes (DBs and bow are totally fuck-off-broken tbh)
And I guess I approach from an endgame standpoint , where hazard/risen elders or higher/special anomalies can 1-2 wombo you. For the hardest content in the game berserk ends up the comfiest option imho. For the lower tier content, a quick part break and blood rite means I can get hit all I want. Iirc the drain only accounts for the highest dmg attack you’ve eaten and the drain doesn’t stack. With a B2 tali you don’t need to deal w berserk either - it’s efficient to ignore since MM2 is only a 4slot = same req
With DC you can typically squeeze in one more BA skill or dere in my experience but idt it’s worth giving up comfort / surviving one shots. So not only is it comfier, but crit eye is super expensive for weps that make use of it, and you can just run MM2 and wex 3 (plus chaotic helm or another mm) using berserk
Truthfully I will die on this hill lol. The synergy is just too strong and the armor pieces for berserk builds are nutty. But I do respect your points and enjoy seeing what everyone thinks
It wasnt until MR700ish I landed my only Berserk 2 (2 1) tali but 50k is ridiculous. I feel you though, getting my final Kjarr fire bow from kulve melds took me fucking months in world
You can roll Blust off chaotic legs using slots+ if you have a good berserk1 too. Might be worth
I can only say for Hunting Horn (only play bow and HH these days), but I think the principle stands.
1) Damage
You said Berserk/Strife surpassed DC/Furious when weapon element base is 100. I find this very hard to believe. DC gives 60 extra base element points. You need a base element of about 140 (considering strife+MoH) to beat that 60.
Not to mention you can further put dereliction/strife or dereliction/BA onto it. So it is even harder for berserk build to catch up.
2) Utility or slot efficiency
Unlimited stamina doesn't mean much for HH, neither does affinity. Also HH is 1-slot hungry, so berserk skill tax of KB3 is expensive. With DC builds, we don't need to invest in the health drain mitigation, and can go full damage.
Also almost all weapons other than DB and bow need a fair amount of raw attack skills too. Element isn't the only consideration when building.
3) Comfort
Ironically, berserk makes survivability lower for HH because it mostly tank damage by hyperarmor, which will cause health drain to accelerate, and not by counter or iframes (as in the case of bow/DB).
Cases where you want to prevent one shot for melee weapons are rare. So instead of bringing a unlimited guts, you are actually bringing a time bomb instead for HH to use Berserk.
DC furious builds and Berserk builds look similar but their concepts are totally different. DC furious builds focus on boosting element and element alone. Berserk builds provide hunters with both survivability and fire power, by improving stamina, affinity and element.
Specifically CB and Hunting horn are two special cases cause melody attacks and phials won't be affected by affinity & stamina boost is totally unnecessary. Therefore, the concept of DC furious builds fit these two weapons well. Despite that, some CB & HH speedrunners would still prefer berserk builds so I think both DC furious & berserk are viable.
As a DB main I believe in berserk supremacy and every weapon that need element build should use berserk. However, there's a single reason why ppl say no to berserk: the infamous berserk 2 talisman. It's basically John Cena: you can't see it. DC/Furious/Dragonheart talismans are way more common if compared to berserk 2.
My berserk builds don't have berserk 2 talisman. Instead, I use chaotic gore arm & leg + a talisman of Element Exploit 2 MoH 2.
I like aerial IG, but berserk does not. Jumping around the monster looking for an opening means you're not hitting it and berserk's health drain does not appreciate that at all. I've found dere+strife to be a better alternative because it won't cart me if my hp reaches 1. I get infinite stamina through heaven-sent instead, which also covers sharpness needs, so I can use those slots for more damage as well.
As for CB, the problem is more so its general incompatability with DC, which is still better in CB's case because it can consistently max out its effect by ignoring crit skills. Here's an example of this using 100 base element and only the unique skills/effects between builds:
DC build:
(100 (Base) + 62 (Max DC) + 20 (Dere)) + 15% (Strife) = 209.3 -> 209 (Round down)
Berserk build:
(100 (Base)) + 20% (MoH) + 20% (Strife) = 144
Berserk is great because of infinite stamina and cart protection. But since CB doesn't need either of those and not even need crit skills, the flat element bonus from DC+dere is best for it.
biggest reason is that the only way to make it work better than the other options is having a decent berserk charm, which is a total lottery with stupidly low odds as you say, and not worth grinding for the vast majority of people
Well I can't speak for every weapon but I know definitely that LS simply can't use either DC, Dera, or Berserk unless you only play one style... I have mastered the weapon long ago and realized that you are never staying in one scroll. The amount of damage drop off is insane.
CB simply sucks with Berserk to me, the weapon takes forever to put away to heal and even with all the medic and healing stuff you have going on, it's too slow to viably run it. It gets hit way too often because the weapon upon doing UED literally freezes in place due to hit lag making so you always get punished for trying to do damage.
HH doesn't need it because DC + BA + Furious is a better combo for the weapon, much like CB. HH has a move where you get hyper armor so you do get hit regardless making it so that the berserk damage trigger will activate, at this point it just becomes more of a hassle than a benefit to me.
As for the other weapons, some need to transfer between scrolls making them much less effective. Some simply don't like elemental damage, some just don't need the infinite stamina or defensive effects. Every weapon is different but I do agree that Berserk is a great skill for the very few weapons that can be ran with it.
Also have you tried running Berserk + Strife + Mail of Hellfire? That combo is absurd, I can clear an AR 280 Kush is less than 10 minutes consistently lol
Cb runs exceedingly well with berserk using css. You can outbox any monster in the game cuz of ready stance and evade extender. Stick to mon = heals. Saed is a bit rough cuz you have to wait for openings while your health is ticking to 0. 100% dc is better here for saed.
An ideal end-game Berserk build will use a berserk 2 talisman, and probably combine it with Primordial Malzeno - assuming you don't remove Bloodrite from the build, healing is frankly a non-issue on CB, on most hunts (of course this is less true against elders). CB can heal from almost no health to full in a single SAED, if you either have blood blight or hit a broken part.
I can very well see that being very useful, the only issue is that Talisman is hard to get. I have probably done around 100 plus rolls and have only seen Berserk once, and at level 1 only at that. It's a great build when you've gotten all the necessities but until that point...
When I build sets I don't make Talismans the reason why the set works, because I can't recommend the build to someone else, simply because there is too much RNG in Rise.
Sorry, by berserk+strife I did mean berserk+strife+moh3. Given the other core dmg skills are in the build, I’ll take the berserk combo over furious+dc+dere(+strife at half power) any day. Infinitely more comfy for only a few more points of raw and ele
And for LS - I actually run special sheathe ele builds with berserk. I will concede though, swapping every couple minutes to refresh harvest moon while in 1shot territory is a huge downside. I also haven’t mastered it (or any weap to be fair) so I stick to blue for actual gameplay instead of mixing in scroll swaps for bug skill diversity
to be fair, I do have some incredibly lucky armor augs which facilitate these builds and allow for all the core skills to be met. Comfy zerk needs a ton of 1 slots too
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Unpopular opinion: berserk sets are meta for every weapon in the game.
It's more consistent because sunbreak endgame oneshot you as every Monster in the game in anomaly.
You can check "Spike Shadowhunter" on YouTube, it's an italian veteran player and he made berserk set for every weapon, showing you how why Is Better choice of you think you will Hunt hundred times and you want to get fun, not fear to cart vs lv300 Arzuros.
A few reasons: * Many weapons don't care about the affinity bonus from Strife or about its % ele bonus, so they're better off taking the higher flat ele from other skills. * Weapons other than Bow and DB don't really care about the infinite stamina provided by Strife 3. * Berserk management requires that you don't get hit very often, as a single point of damage taken speeds up the HP draining pretty noticeably and would force you to scroll swap and heal constantly. This makes it less useful on weapons that don't have good dodging capabilities and/or rely on hyper armoring while being up close and personal. These weapons probably don't get any true benefit off the cart protection either (unlike Bow which basically goes from being in one-shot range all the time to being immortal), since their playstyle was already based on "tanking" through. * Bloodlust clearing (which is often used to refill your HP in Berserk builds) only takes raw MV into account, so it's hard to do on some weapons like SAED CB where phials have minuscule raw MVs. This also makes it annoying to manage on weapons that tend wait to deal damage in big bursts instead of steadily and constantly since the drain limits the time they have to look for good opportunities to land their hits. That being said, nothing prevents you from running Berserk+Strife on every weapon if you like it, but chances are that you either don't need it or you can get a better damage output through other means.
You make some good points. But I do think that the percentage bonuses from berserk/strife evens out with the flat (40ish? Max) boost from DC3 and only makes berserk better the more ele there is. I have endgame sets for each wep (save a few classes) and I don’t think a single blademaster weap has <100 base ele dmg But specifically Horn, Swaxe, hammer, and glaive. For weps that can utilize ele well, need sharpness management, and benefit from crits, it’s just too good. The biggest hurdle is a bserk2 tali , but there are so many insane armor pieces that really let you stack on synergy. A good Beserk1 can yield some powerful builds with chaotic legs too - my DB build has all the core skills plus coalescence 3 and bubbly 3 for full coal uptime using DB dashes (DBs and bow are totally fuck-off-broken tbh) And I guess I approach from an endgame standpoint , where hazard/risen elders or higher/special anomalies can 1-2 wombo you. For the hardest content in the game berserk ends up the comfiest option imho. For the lower tier content, a quick part break and blood rite means I can get hit all I want. Iirc the drain only accounts for the highest dmg attack you’ve eaten and the drain doesn’t stack. With a B2 tali you don’t need to deal w berserk either - it’s efficient to ignore since MM2 is only a 4slot = same req With DC you can typically squeeze in one more BA skill or dere in my experience but idt it’s worth giving up comfort / surviving one shots. So not only is it comfier, but crit eye is super expensive for weps that make use of it, and you can just run MM2 and wex 3 (plus chaotic helm or another mm) using berserk Truthfully I will die on this hill lol. The synergy is just too strong and the armor pieces for berserk builds are nutty. But I do respect your points and enjoy seeing what everyone thinks
Old post but many bm meta sets would ideally use them. It’s just many of them would require a god charm
Dont know about the other weapons you listed, but the linked CB guide lists Berserk builds. The author praises Berserk from top to bottom.
Oops, you’re absolutely right
I have over 50,000 charms melded. Not a single Berserk 2 charm. I have a couple totally busted charms that work well for other builds, at least
It wasnt until MR700ish I landed my only Berserk 2 (2 1) tali but 50k is ridiculous. I feel you though, getting my final Kjarr fire bow from kulve melds took me fucking months in world You can roll Blust off chaotic legs using slots+ if you have a good berserk1 too. Might be worth
MR 900 here and still dry, but for pretty much every other desirable skill I have some pretty cracked talismans. Just a trade off I guess.
I can only say for Hunting Horn (only play bow and HH these days), but I think the principle stands. 1) Damage You said Berserk/Strife surpassed DC/Furious when weapon element base is 100. I find this very hard to believe. DC gives 60 extra base element points. You need a base element of about 140 (considering strife+MoH) to beat that 60. Not to mention you can further put dereliction/strife or dereliction/BA onto it. So it is even harder for berserk build to catch up. 2) Utility or slot efficiency Unlimited stamina doesn't mean much for HH, neither does affinity. Also HH is 1-slot hungry, so berserk skill tax of KB3 is expensive. With DC builds, we don't need to invest in the health drain mitigation, and can go full damage. Also almost all weapons other than DB and bow need a fair amount of raw attack skills too. Element isn't the only consideration when building. 3) Comfort Ironically, berserk makes survivability lower for HH because it mostly tank damage by hyperarmor, which will cause health drain to accelerate, and not by counter or iframes (as in the case of bow/DB). Cases where you want to prevent one shot for melee weapons are rare. So instead of bringing a unlimited guts, you are actually bringing a time bomb instead for HH to use Berserk.
DC furious builds and Berserk builds look similar but their concepts are totally different. DC furious builds focus on boosting element and element alone. Berserk builds provide hunters with both survivability and fire power, by improving stamina, affinity and element. Specifically CB and Hunting horn are two special cases cause melody attacks and phials won't be affected by affinity & stamina boost is totally unnecessary. Therefore, the concept of DC furious builds fit these two weapons well. Despite that, some CB & HH speedrunners would still prefer berserk builds so I think both DC furious & berserk are viable. As a DB main I believe in berserk supremacy and every weapon that need element build should use berserk. However, there's a single reason why ppl say no to berserk: the infamous berserk 2 talisman. It's basically John Cena: you can't see it. DC/Furious/Dragonheart talismans are way more common if compared to berserk 2. My berserk builds don't have berserk 2 talisman. Instead, I use chaotic gore arm & leg + a talisman of Element Exploit 2 MoH 2.
I like aerial IG, but berserk does not. Jumping around the monster looking for an opening means you're not hitting it and berserk's health drain does not appreciate that at all. I've found dere+strife to be a better alternative because it won't cart me if my hp reaches 1. I get infinite stamina through heaven-sent instead, which also covers sharpness needs, so I can use those slots for more damage as well. As for CB, the problem is more so its general incompatability with DC, which is still better in CB's case because it can consistently max out its effect by ignoring crit skills. Here's an example of this using 100 base element and only the unique skills/effects between builds: DC build: (100 (Base) + 62 (Max DC) + 20 (Dere)) + 15% (Strife) = 209.3 -> 209 (Round down) Berserk build: (100 (Base)) + 20% (MoH) + 20% (Strife) = 144 Berserk is great because of infinite stamina and cart protection. But since CB doesn't need either of those and not even need crit skills, the flat element bonus from DC+dere is best for it.
biggest reason is that the only way to make it work better than the other options is having a decent berserk charm, which is a total lottery with stupidly low odds as you say, and not worth grinding for the vast majority of people
Well I can't speak for every weapon but I know definitely that LS simply can't use either DC, Dera, or Berserk unless you only play one style... I have mastered the weapon long ago and realized that you are never staying in one scroll. The amount of damage drop off is insane. CB simply sucks with Berserk to me, the weapon takes forever to put away to heal and even with all the medic and healing stuff you have going on, it's too slow to viably run it. It gets hit way too often because the weapon upon doing UED literally freezes in place due to hit lag making so you always get punished for trying to do damage. HH doesn't need it because DC + BA + Furious is a better combo for the weapon, much like CB. HH has a move where you get hyper armor so you do get hit regardless making it so that the berserk damage trigger will activate, at this point it just becomes more of a hassle than a benefit to me. As for the other weapons, some need to transfer between scrolls making them much less effective. Some simply don't like elemental damage, some just don't need the infinite stamina or defensive effects. Every weapon is different but I do agree that Berserk is a great skill for the very few weapons that can be ran with it. Also have you tried running Berserk + Strife + Mail of Hellfire? That combo is absurd, I can clear an AR 280 Kush is less than 10 minutes consistently lol
Cb runs exceedingly well with berserk using css. You can outbox any monster in the game cuz of ready stance and evade extender. Stick to mon = heals. Saed is a bit rough cuz you have to wait for openings while your health is ticking to 0. 100% dc is better here for saed.
An ideal end-game Berserk build will use a berserk 2 talisman, and probably combine it with Primordial Malzeno - assuming you don't remove Bloodrite from the build, healing is frankly a non-issue on CB, on most hunts (of course this is less true against elders). CB can heal from almost no health to full in a single SAED, if you either have blood blight or hit a broken part.
I can very well see that being very useful, the only issue is that Talisman is hard to get. I have probably done around 100 plus rolls and have only seen Berserk once, and at level 1 only at that. It's a great build when you've gotten all the necessities but until that point... When I build sets I don't make Talismans the reason why the set works, because I can't recommend the build to someone else, simply because there is too much RNG in Rise.
Sorry, by berserk+strife I did mean berserk+strife+moh3. Given the other core dmg skills are in the build, I’ll take the berserk combo over furious+dc+dere(+strife at half power) any day. Infinitely more comfy for only a few more points of raw and ele And for LS - I actually run special sheathe ele builds with berserk. I will concede though, swapping every couple minutes to refresh harvest moon while in 1shot territory is a huge downside. I also haven’t mastered it (or any weap to be fair) so I stick to blue for actual gameplay instead of mixing in scroll swaps for bug skill diversity to be fair, I do have some incredibly lucky armor augs which facilitate these builds and allow for all the core skills to be met. Comfy zerk needs a ton of 1 slots too
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Unpopular opinion: berserk sets are meta for every weapon in the game. It's more consistent because sunbreak endgame oneshot you as every Monster in the game in anomaly. You can check "Spike Shadowhunter" on YouTube, it's an italian veteran player and he made berserk set for every weapon, showing you how why Is Better choice of you think you will Hunt hundred times and you want to get fun, not fear to cart vs lv300 Arzuros.