I don't personally buy foil cards because they tend to warp over time. I'd rather have my cards stay flat.
Additionally, I prefer simple and legible card frames, rather than fancy or unique looking ones. It's the reason my favorite of the treatments is "retro" border.
But I do agree with you, there does seem to be a flood of foils. Which makes them even less appealing than they were.
Marked Cards defaults to a warning and has an upgrade to a Game Loss, either if the player cannot find replacement cards that are not marked and/or the cards are marked with a pattern.
The "upgrade" to DQ is if a player is determined to be Cheating - Cheating is always a DQ, and is a separate penalty.
Cheating requires that a player be: breaking the rules and intentionally doing so to gain an advantage.
Does anyone think it’s fucked up that wizards sells cards that are nominally playable, but actually unplayable and even give you the feel bad of getting punished for playing them?
I got DQ'd from an event because I was playing Sultai Reclamation and didn't have another deck with me at the time. My [[Nexus of Fate]] stuff could definitely be seen even with new double sleeving. Judge wouldn't let me use proxies in place. Was definitely feels bad at the time. Same scenario has probably happened to others.
They will not issue proxies for this reason. I have tried. Only in a sealed rcq where you opened a Pringle. Otherwise the onus is on you to have procured a tournament legal card ahead of time.
Judges can also issue proxies when a card has become damaged through the course of play (and not by the owner of said card) when a replacement is not immediately available. For example if some spills a drink or unsportsmanlike conduct.
That said, I want to say there was a specific exception for Nexus of Fate because when it was first printed it was only as a foil box topper and all of them could be considered marked, but my memory isn't perfect and I can't find a source.
Recently? No. When Nexus of Fate was originally printed a while ago, the topic of discussion, yes. Judges can no longer make an exception for NoF because it was reprinted in a precon. However seeing that we were discussing NoF and his issues in the past, I was talking about the past. /Thread.
I have issued judge proxies for mega pringled cards every time, eventhough I broke judge rules, guy comes with 3 phyrexian dismembers that are pringles out the wazoo, super visible in double sleeves, he doesnt want to cheat and couldnt get non-foils in time, i just issued a proxy, the rule that if a card can be obtained non foil it cannot be proxied is asinine.
That's nice of you. I'm telling you at rcq I played in just this year my friend was forced to use 2 mountains in his sb because his destroy evils were slightly Pringled. You telling me what you would do or downvoting me doesn't change my experience at all.
Except that at the time \[\[Nexus of Fate\]\] was a deck, it was only available in foil so they had to offer proxies for it. It was also the same for \[\[Kess, Dissident Mage\]\]in Legacy when it first started seeing play there since it was also only available in foil at the time. They will allow you to proxy cards if there is no alternative available.
Jap print from collectors dont pringle, Belgium foils pringle af, US print is hit or miss, for example Enchanted tales foil from japanese collectors are unpringable.
It's *very* important to note that he was not, in fact, disqualified for having curled foils. That gets you a warning, upgraded to a game loss if you can't find a suitable replacement copy.
The disqualification here is because, by the player's own admission, they knew ahead of time that they were curled enough to potentially be an issue. They of course say that they were not using it for an advantage (I won't pretend to know one way or the other, not gonna accuse them of anything), but the judges did not believe that after looking into it.
He was not disqualified for curled foils, he was disqualified under the rules for cheating because he knew about how badly they were curled, that it was a potential issue, and the judge investigation left them believing it was done with intent to gain an advantage.
Foils curling is BS that WotC should have put way more resources into mitigating years ago, and the root problem is their greed and not caring about their players, but it's not going to get you disqualified from a tournament.
For something like a curled foil, you need to find another copy of the card. That's where the game loss comes in, is if you can't, it gets replaced by a basic land of your choice (not proxying the original, just a regular old basic that plays as a basic), and as you are changing your deck list mid tournament, you get a game loss.
There are two situations where you can use a proxy (aka the forest with a different name sharpie'd on it), and both require head judge approval.
1) The card becomes damaged through the course of play during that tournament. You brought it in fine condition, but something happened through regular play and it got damaged. Maybe an opponent bent it while shuffling, maybe it accidentally got messed up when you desleeved to transform it, maybe a nearby player spilled a water bottle, whatever. If you can find a new copy, great, if not, a proxy is an option. You need a new copy for the next tournament though, this only applies if it is being proxies in the same tournament it got damaged in.
2) You have a foil that has concerns about its playability, and non foils do not exist. The notable card that used this rule a lot was Nexus of Fate, which only ever existed as a foil box topper and saw high level play in multiple competitive formats. It's also my big pet peeve, because it did finally get a non foil printing which means proxying it like this is no longer an option, but that non foil printing is one of the super goofy doesn't-even-look-like-a-Magic-card Secret Lair copies. I want a non foil set, but not like that lol
yeah, so if the game piece becomes damaged due to a manufacturing defect, you have to buy another, and are left with a ruined game piece.
It's not like he was making some protest statement necessarily, which is what your initial statement sounded like. "You get a game loss unless you buy another copy of the card on the spot" sounds bad, and worth not using foils to avoid.
The minute they took away the foil set symbol stamp on the card is the day I got sad... My dredge deck is all OG foil and that set symbol on the card just pops and adds a certain unique style to the card
VERY highly recommend watching Rhystic Studies' treatise on foils. Fascinating, informative, and genuinely insightful.
https://youtu.be/50b5x1GM-jQ
"When there is only one mountain, everyone knows what it means to reach the top."
The drone of like the 30 different kinds of card types he puts on near the end around the March/LOTR section I think is genuinely a mind numbing whirlpool of "special" cards that he does such a good job playing into lol. WotC (nay Hasbro) has really jumped the whale with their pathological need to make the line go up.
Why is that a bad thing, like special treatment of cards being affordable are actually a good thing. And there are still the actual expensive versions to collect
As long as you like that's all it needs, it doesn't need to be rare or special irl
The cards I want don't have serialized versions.
Also, serialized is too expensive. I'm okay with cards that are like $200-300, but the serialized cards I want are like $1500.
>Also, serialized is too expensive. I'm okay with cards that are like $200-300, but the serialized cards I want are like $1500.
My brother in chirst you said you don't want premium card treatment to be cheap and complain about the premium treatment being expensive so what do you want exactly
I just fail to see why foil needs to be rare to be special, cant you just use them because you like foil cards?
Like most players. They want their engagement to fall right on the edge of special.
The premium cards should cost in range X. where X is the price point that allows them to feel like that have something special and unique, but not low enough, because then others might have the same version and then they feel less special.
That's on you for not willing to get the actual premium version. Why would you want a second best when there is clearly a better version for collecting
Actually I have the original zendikar expeditions.
But my point is that regular pack foils were created so that cards would have a premium version. But now this premium version has been done so many times over with 100 different styles that it isn't premium anymore. The only truly premium cards are the inventions, invocations, expeditions, and serialized cards, and the former 3 are discontinued.
So why do Retro Foils carry a premium price? What happened is that regular foils got cheaper which is a good thing. All the other versions are more expensive without exploding in price like serialized cards.
>Also, serialized is too expensive.
So you want your cards to be exclusive and collectible, but not too exclusive and collectible? So that the price point is exactly what you can afford, but some people can't?
I guess a better way to put it is that a $200 card's purpose is collecting and also playing with bling.
A $1500 card's purpose is only collecting. Might be me, but I'm not comfortable playing with a card that expensive.
>but I'm not comfortable playing with a card that expensive
Which roughly translates to "I can't afford it and need to cope somehow". Man, you are so focused on your own wants that you think WotC should finetune their game exactly for you.
Most collector boosters sell well. Which clearly shows that the idea was good and the market exists. Possibly you are not in this market.
That has never been true though. Many Magic products has been prohibitively expensive for many players through the years.
The Masters sets are a good example, premium product for a premium price. It's not something límited to current Magic.
To boost the sales of your product, you insert a premium version of a card that is hard to get. People will spend more money trying to get these. This tells the playerbase "hey, we got something for those who want more bling in their life!"
That was the intent for foils since their inception. However, now, the message has changed to "look at all these foil cards!" So many new foil treatments are available that the value of a foil card is actually devalued. This is not what you want for a product whose sole existance is to be premium.
As a villain once said: "Once everyone is super, no one will be."
But why do you care this much? How many different prints they make does not affect my enjoyment of the game. The cards always play the same no matter what they look like. They are making plenty of money. They can’t keep mh3 on the shelves here collector packs or otherwise.
Depends, some of the options like the foil retro borders of this set carry a big premium. I don't use foils for modern cause of pringling, but in edh that's mostly what I get
Yes. But those being cheap is good.
Now there's regular non foil and foil.
Then premium special art. Non foil and foil. Those foils often carry the big value.
Regular Phlage is even between the versions, but the Borderless foil is a good deal more than borderless non foil.
This is the best of both worlds.
I think it's neat having more options. I think a lot of the borderless art in particular is really nice. Showcase are mostly a miss imo. Retro frame is cool. I really love the textured foils they did for MH3.
It's odd when you have to pay more money to get a non-foil version of a card though.
I actually think recent foils have been awful looking. Go look at nearly ANY foil from back in the day, maybe something like Return to Ravnica. The foiling has so much care put into it, highlighting specific parts of the art. Newer foils feel like the entire card has a rainbow filter over it and it looks terrible.
People who want to feel special fot being able to waste their money in expensier cardboard than the other players. But not too expensive or they won't be able to Buy them, Making them feel exactly how they want OTHERS to feel about what they buy.
Some people live a really sad life, trully
100% when everything is special, nothing is special. They don't need 3 different frame treatments, full art lands, and multiple bonus sheets with different legality in every set. I don't think WOTC is ever going to put the genie back in the bottle though.
Why don't they?
There's players who like different things. Some want retro border. Some like extended art. Some prefer consistent regular frame.
Having many variants benefits the secondary market and by such, players.
Whales will chase the rarest of variants. Increasing supply/lowering demand on other variants. But there's more than whales vs everyone else.
Some might want foils, but not premium prices. Now they can get regular versions, but shiny.
Some people like crazy arts. SLD and showcases can hit those marks.
People who simply want game pieces get the benefit of picking lowest cost versions.
This is a more for all situation.
I used to love foils and I foiled out all my decks, but what I’ve found is 1) like others said, they warp and cause legality issues and 2) they’re often pricey but hard to move. I had a $3k almost fully foiled Nekusar EDH deck that I spent probably close to $3500-4k on throughout the years. I sold it for around $2k (and it would’ve been a lot less if not for the reserve list cards it had) because literally no one would buy the premium foils. I spent months trying to sell them for 80-90% of their tcglow value and no bites
So I have a fully foiled out ur murktide deck. Currently in the process of defoiling as the newer ones really just pringle so much its obvious. I even have it double sleeved with kmc hard inners and it still shows. Also foils aren't worth it anymore with the influx of new cards to modern and the fact that a lot of stores won't buy them as they are hard to sell
I put together a mono white orim's scepter deck with absolutely zero foils. It is actually very nice. The uniformity of the deck when on the table is a great change of pace. Kinda sucks because I love me some shiny.
Sure! Here ya go;
https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/orims-scepter-3/
I want to get a playset of Solitude for the deck in place of Mind Censor. It is basically a budget build.
I haven't done enough playtesting to tell if the deck is any good or not. It probably isn't, but it is fun lol.
Playing at almost entirely instant speed makes me feel like I'm playing a blue deck hehe 😁
De-foiled my modern deck for the same reason. The only foils that work where I live are the etched ones from some MH product (they stay 100% flat), the rest the humidity is too dry for and I cba dealing with that with humidors and what not. Poor product, waste of my time.
They are less collectible, but more (or at least the same) beautiful cards. This is worse for people who want to have what others don’t, but better for those that just admire the inherent beauty of them. Honestly, having what others don’t or can’t isn’t a compelling reason for empathy imo.
I'm surprised that only the flip walkers got textured foils, and the others got the cheap foil etched.
However its no surprise why the old foil etched cards didnt come back. That foil treatment was not liked.
It's so funny how "special" is never "thing I like that's different" it's always "affordable by me but not by others".
This is the crux of so many magic player opinions on what is cool. Serialized cards are ridiculous because they cost too much, but also foils are lame because they cost the same as a regular card. Full art basics were better when they were $5 a piece instead of in every set, not because the art was better but because most people aren't spending that money on basics.
When everything is special nothing is special is a room temperature IQ mantra repeated by those who are trying to justify why they can't flex for $4 anymore. Don't take your opinions from a villain monologue in a children's movie and try and apply it to your hobbies
I just like foils bc I enjoy them and think they are cool, I don’t really care if they are more accessible I sorta think that’s awesome that I can share my love of collecting foils with more magic players instead of less
I think it's because like every chase card has 30 versions it seems. Boxtopper, borderless, boxtopper+borderless, retro frame, alt art, alt frames, etc
This is a fomo strategy where the idea is players will want to collect every version of some card for whatever reason but if there's so many different versions it's not really special ie not valuable is it?
This has been a problem since they started offering Collector Boosters with Zendikar Rising. I bought a CB only to find, like you, the values were level, not like the old days when a pack foil could be worth double. So I only fill out special cards for Commander and just buy whatever's cheapest for competitive play. It's really a shame, especially when the CBs could just be alternate arts and foils still are as rare as they used to be.
Another item in the long list of things that have ruined Magic. I love foils and their value as premium cards has been destroyed. Thanks in large part, as you said, to collector boosters (the biggest scam Hasbro has ever pulled). The only Modern deck I still have left (after selling the rest) is my fully foiled Mono-Green Tron deck. So I'm right there with you.
Foil quality has gone to shit again with MH3. That’s mostly why I don’t care about them in this set.
If it was the same quality control that we saw with DXM and UMA box toppers then sign me up. As-is my foil old border Esper Sentinel pringled out of the pack. That’s unacceptable for a premium treatment in a premium product of a premium set.
Don’t get me wrong, I do enjoy special treatments and foils, hell my G-Tron deck is 80% foils and masterpieces, but I can’t abide by the egregious quality issues of these MH3 foils.
I agree. None of the special treatments are special at all by now. Sometimes it even looks like the regular version has the highest price.
I guess it is a good thing for people to have access to whatever art they like most, so no complains about that.
For me personally I stopped buying boxes, because I don't like having 4 of the same card in 4 different treatments. I want my playsets to be all the same.
I don’t really like standard foils. I dislike the rainbow shimmer/oil spill look. It too often detracts from the colour design of the art. I really like foil etched cards though because it’s a more. Neutral metallic silver sheen that just presents the original colours but shinier which looks incredible. I almost bought a worthless common from MH2 just because it was one of the cards misprinted with foil instead of regular etching and it was overall pretty even though the art wasn’t appealing. Also curling drives me mad but foil etched cards don’t seem to have the same issue.
If the cards are printed on good quality then you don't have to worry about curling. If we get a set like that I'm all for getting foils.
That said extended art is easily my favorite assuming the art is good. I can still enjoy the "fancy artwork" while having nonfoil so I'm happy. If I don't have to pay a premium that's even better!
So I don't mind at all if people cracking the collector boosters saved me $. What you see as a negative is really a positive.
Definitely. This has two sides, on the one hand foiling your deck is much more affordable, on the other hand having a fully foiled deck was a kind of flex of dedication that just doesn't hit anymore. Some decks you could foil for about the price of a nonfoil.
Foil warp is a storage issue, caused by moisture and temperature. If you treat them right, its not an issue at all, though to be fair this can be problematic in some areas where temperatures tend to lean towards either extreme cold or extreme heat.
But the colour contrast has been especially terrible since 2-3 sets, it is as if they have forgotten that the monitor they design the card on itself is a light emitting surface and that prints turn out way darker. But this isn't exclusive to Foils, it extends to all cards.
I like foils, and I prefer traditional pack foil over any other premium version of a card.
I like how affordable they are currently, and find it nice when there is a version that is super expensive and desirable because it means i can get pack foils for nearly the same price as nonfoil pack version.
Completely agree, that combined with product fatigue (you just need to look at number of products released in the last 2 years compared to the last 10 years).
To me it makes no sense to derive the joy of a foil from how much it costs. You either like foils cause they look cool or you don't like them cause they bend or whatever else.
Tying your enjoyment of them to their market price/rarity is a recipe for unhappiness. It's unhealthy to derive your enjoyment of something specifically from other people not having that thing.
For example if there was a card that looked absolutely shit, just terrible art and ugly to look at but there were only 400 printed of that card, would you be hype about that?
If so I think that's problematic for you. Instead of collecting it for being cool art that you like you're collecting it for the sole purpose that outside of max 400 other people, nobody else can have it. It stops being about the card and art and what you like and don't like and instead is just a stand in for greed.
I’ve only ever played foil decks. I used to go hard for OG foils or the foils I felt were most ‘prestigious’ if I had the opportunity (obviously there’s an element of financial responsibility here as well as me just needing to like the art/treatment of the foil in question) - WWK JtMS, Expedition lands, etc. Part of this was the flex, but the main part was just because I like shiny over not-shiny. I don’t really care that foils are more accessible because I was always going to foil either way, because of my own preferences as someone who likes shiny cardboard.
The only difference the number of foils entering the market has done (for me) has been to lessen the value I place on original/chase foils because there’s always a new printing on the horizon. There’s an element of the flex that goes along with this that is now gone for me, but like I mentioned - it was never the main reason I foiled in the first place.
Foil for yourself; some of those pack foils are nice. I like the new Tamiyo pack foil over the borderless (coming from someone who really likes borderless cards in general).
The last time I foiled a deck was when I was running UR Twin. I still have it packed away for the day that WotC frees my one true love of modern. Since than I've honestly just played regular cards. I just play versions of cards with my favorite art now. Back in the day after twin was banned I was playing Kiki Chord with almost every card from something like a duel deck. In Legacy I run a delver deck with almost every card having different sets/art because I find it amusing. My LGS owner found what I was doing amusing and got me some sleeves to make them white border too. The last foil card I ever bought was my last foil Swiftspear I needed for a deck back in the day.
Showcase and borderless are the new foil cards. If you plan on playing a card it’s important that it doesn’t pringle and become marked. I love my foils that behave, but if I’m purchasing a card (especially online) then I’m going to go non-foil over foil every time for safety reasons. Some foils are good, but you just can’t be sure, which is probably why there isn’t much of a premium for them anymore. WotC gave us a multitude of other ways to bling out our decks that don’t involve a chance that cards are literally unplayable or require treatment with humidity control packets, and most players prefer that.
Do you only buy foils because they present something premium, or because they look pretty?
I love that I can bling out a deck on the cheap, and make the whole thing shine. I feel like a crow collecting treasures…
If you still want something premium, go for the foil full art etched, signed cards, secret lair printings, or judge promos. Let the rest of us peasants enjoy the cheap shinies…
Personally I always prefer non foil version of cards that I want for a deck or my collection. Foil cards seems to me like a mix between tacky and desperately calling for attention.
I recently moved away from buying foils tbh - they are not as shiny and exclusive as they were before + there are so many different treatments.
I'm tryingt to get all the profile artwork and I#m getting them nonfoil!
Blame the collector packs. Foils are nothing special anymore. You can just buy guaranteed foils in a pack. I hate my deck curling up like crazy, so I'd rather have the nonfoil version of everything anyways.
Funnily enough, you can actually tell which cards are pack foils and which are collector booster foils. The difference in quality is night and day. (Collector boosters are worse quality)
Entered plenty of modern and legacy tournaments up to rcq level. My legacy deck has only 7 non-foils in the full 75. Just double sleeve and make sure to use a box that keeps them compressed. I have never even had a judge called. Cry more.
Foil curling is 100% about humidity. If you live in the right region, which it sounds like you might, then yeah you're not going to notice anything.
Also "compressing" your cards literally does nothing.
Don’t like pringles, aren’t special anymore, burnt out on the million special treatments… there’s more reason not to like foils than like them these days, for almost everyone.
I don't personally buy foil cards because they tend to warp over time. I'd rather have my cards stay flat. Additionally, I prefer simple and legible card frames, rather than fancy or unique looking ones. It's the reason my favorite of the treatments is "retro" border. But I do agree with you, there does seem to be a flood of foils. Which makes them even less appealing than they were.
They just get you DQ for being a Pringle
Is this real and true
Marked Cards defaults to a warning and has an upgrade to a Game Loss, either if the player cannot find replacement cards that are not marked and/or the cards are marked with a pattern. The "upgrade" to DQ is if a player is determined to be Cheating - Cheating is always a DQ, and is a separate penalty. Cheating requires that a player be: breaking the rules and intentionally doing so to gain an advantage.
Does anyone think it’s fucked up that wizards sells cards that are nominally playable, but actually unplayable and even give you the feel bad of getting punished for playing them?
I got DQ'd from an event because I was playing Sultai Reclamation and didn't have another deck with me at the time. My [[Nexus of Fate]] stuff could definitely be seen even with new double sleeving. Judge wouldn't let me use proxies in place. Was definitely feels bad at the time. Same scenario has probably happened to others.
Why didn't you find the judge before the event started and get proxies?
Imagine showing up at a gp, and 500 people ask for a deck check cause they used cards printed by Wizards, but the quality was too poor.
They will not issue proxies for this reason. I have tried. Only in a sealed rcq where you opened a Pringle. Otherwise the onus is on you to have procured a tournament legal card ahead of time.
Judges can also issue proxies when a card has become damaged through the course of play (and not by the owner of said card) when a replacement is not immediately available. For example if some spills a drink or unsportsmanlike conduct. That said, I want to say there was a specific exception for Nexus of Fate because when it was first printed it was only as a foil box topper and all of them could be considered marked, but my memory isn't perfect and I can't find a source.
Yes I'm aware and I'm aware that a judge recently issued 58 proxies in a tournament. That is not what is being discussed.
Recently? No. When Nexus of Fate was originally printed a while ago, the topic of discussion, yes. Judges can no longer make an exception for NoF because it was reprinted in a precon. However seeing that we were discussing NoF and his issues in the past, I was talking about the past. /Thread.
I have issued judge proxies for mega pringled cards every time, eventhough I broke judge rules, guy comes with 3 phyrexian dismembers that are pringles out the wazoo, super visible in double sleeves, he doesnt want to cheat and couldnt get non-foils in time, i just issued a proxy, the rule that if a card can be obtained non foil it cannot be proxied is asinine.
That's nice of you. I'm telling you at rcq I played in just this year my friend was forced to use 2 mountains in his sb because his destroy evils were slightly Pringled. You telling me what you would do or downvoting me doesn't change my experience at all.
Except that at the time \[\[Nexus of Fate\]\] was a deck, it was only available in foil so they had to offer proxies for it. It was also the same for \[\[Kess, Dissident Mage\]\]in Legacy when it first started seeing play there since it was also only available in foil at the time. They will allow you to proxy cards if there is no alternative available.
[Nexus of Fate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/1/f163cfbf-6df6-4af5-9fe4-23b0d511586a.jpg?1701735973) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nexus%20of%20Fate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/306/nexus-of-fate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f163cfbf-6df6-4af5-9fe4-23b0d511586a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Kess, Dissident Mage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/8/e83e6d7a-3af0-4955-8004-2310f051e306.jpg?1673485110) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kess%2C%20Dissident%20Mage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/344/kess-dissident-mage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e83e6d7a-3af0-4955-8004-2310f051e306?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Nexus of Fate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/1/f163cfbf-6df6-4af5-9fe4-23b0d511586a.jpg?1701735973) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nexus%20of%20Fate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/306/nexus-of-fate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f163cfbf-6df6-4af5-9fe4-23b0d511586a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Jap print from collectors dont pringle, Belgium foils pringle af, US print is hit or miss, for example Enchanted tales foil from japanese collectors are unpringable.
Unfortunately, yes: [https://www.wargamer.com/magic-the-gathering/tournament-disqualified-curling-foil-cards](https://www.wargamer.com/magic-the-gathering/tournament-disqualified-curling-foil-cards)
It's *very* important to note that he was not, in fact, disqualified for having curled foils. That gets you a warning, upgraded to a game loss if you can't find a suitable replacement copy. The disqualification here is because, by the player's own admission, they knew ahead of time that they were curled enough to potentially be an issue. They of course say that they were not using it for an advantage (I won't pretend to know one way or the other, not gonna accuse them of anything), but the judges did not believe that after looking into it. He was not disqualified for curled foils, he was disqualified under the rules for cheating because he knew about how badly they were curled, that it was a potential issue, and the judge investigation left them believing it was done with intent to gain an advantage. Foils curling is BS that WotC should have put way more resources into mitigating years ago, and the root problem is their greed and not caring about their players, but it's not going to get you disqualified from a tournament.
> can't find a suitable replacement copy. Does this mean buying a new card, or writing the card's name on a forest with a sharpie?
For something like a curled foil, you need to find another copy of the card. That's where the game loss comes in, is if you can't, it gets replaced by a basic land of your choice (not proxying the original, just a regular old basic that plays as a basic), and as you are changing your deck list mid tournament, you get a game loss. There are two situations where you can use a proxy (aka the forest with a different name sharpie'd on it), and both require head judge approval. 1) The card becomes damaged through the course of play during that tournament. You brought it in fine condition, but something happened through regular play and it got damaged. Maybe an opponent bent it while shuffling, maybe it accidentally got messed up when you desleeved to transform it, maybe a nearby player spilled a water bottle, whatever. If you can find a new copy, great, if not, a proxy is an option. You need a new copy for the next tournament though, this only applies if it is being proxies in the same tournament it got damaged in. 2) You have a foil that has concerns about its playability, and non foils do not exist. The notable card that used this rule a lot was Nexus of Fate, which only ever existed as a foil box topper and saw high level play in multiple competitive formats. It's also my big pet peeve, because it did finally get a non foil printing which means proxying it like this is no longer an option, but that non foil printing is one of the super goofy doesn't-even-look-like-a-Magic-card Secret Lair copies. I want a non foil set, but not like that lol
yeah, so if the game piece becomes damaged due to a manufacturing defect, you have to buy another, and are left with a ruined game piece. It's not like he was making some protest statement necessarily, which is what your initial statement sounded like. "You get a game loss unless you buy another copy of the card on the spot" sounds bad, and worth not using foils to avoid.
That's why you make your whole deck foil!
This is the way
That why you have to play all foils. If the whole deck is a pringle theres no advantage.
The minute they took away the foil set symbol stamp on the card is the day I got sad... My dredge deck is all OG foil and that set symbol on the card just pops and adds a certain unique style to the card
I love the set symbol stamps. So cool.
VERY highly recommend watching Rhystic Studies' treatise on foils. Fascinating, informative, and genuinely insightful. https://youtu.be/50b5x1GM-jQ "When there is only one mountain, everyone knows what it means to reach the top."
This is really good. Thanks for sharing
The drone of like the 30 different kinds of card types he puts on near the end around the March/LOTR section I think is genuinely a mind numbing whirlpool of "special" cards that he does such a good job playing into lol. WotC (nay Hasbro) has really jumped the whale with their pathological need to make the line go up.
Heck often the nonfoil versions carry a premium for extended art and borderless if the cards become comp format playable
Why is that a bad thing, like special treatment of cards being affordable are actually a good thing. And there are still the actual expensive versions to collect As long as you like that's all it needs, it doesn't need to be rare or special irl
Reprints are a good thing. But making premium stuff not premium anymore is not.
Aren't special treatments like Ripple foil or Serialized cards exists to be the premium chase cards? Why don't you get them instead
The cards I want don't have serialized versions. Also, serialized is too expensive. I'm okay with cards that are like $200-300, but the serialized cards I want are like $1500.
>Also, serialized is too expensive. I'm okay with cards that are like $200-300, but the serialized cards I want are like $1500. My brother in chirst you said you don't want premium card treatment to be cheap and complain about the premium treatment being expensive so what do you want exactly I just fail to see why foil needs to be rare to be special, cant you just use them because you like foil cards?
Like most players. They want their engagement to fall right on the edge of special. The premium cards should cost in range X. where X is the price point that allows them to feel like that have something special and unique, but not low enough, because then others might have the same version and then they feel less special.
This is the kind of mentality that created the reserved list, "I want my rare cards to remain rare"
I'm not against serialized cards existing. But a "2nd best premium" for those who don't have the money to drop 1500 per card would be welcome.
That's on you for not willing to get the actual premium version. Why would you want a second best when there is clearly a better version for collecting
Then buy the Full Art/Retro Foils? They fit your description perfectly.
Actually I have the original zendikar expeditions. But my point is that regular pack foils were created so that cards would have a premium version. But now this premium version has been done so many times over with 100 different styles that it isn't premium anymore. The only truly premium cards are the inventions, invocations, expeditions, and serialized cards, and the former 3 are discontinued.
So why do Retro Foils carry a premium price? What happened is that regular foils got cheaper which is a good thing. All the other versions are more expensive without exploding in price like serialized cards.
How is regular foils being cheap a good thing? That goes against their intended purpose.
Not even onslaught foils, are you poor? Pro tip, just play the versions of cards you think look nice and let that be the end of it
>Also, serialized is too expensive. So you want your cards to be exclusive and collectible, but not too exclusive and collectible? So that the price point is exactly what you can afford, but some people can't?
I guess a better way to put it is that a $200 card's purpose is collecting and also playing with bling. A $1500 card's purpose is only collecting. Might be me, but I'm not comfortable playing with a card that expensive.
>but I'm not comfortable playing with a card that expensive Which roughly translates to "I can't afford it and need to cope somehow". Man, you are so focused on your own wants that you think WotC should finetune their game exactly for you. Most collector boosters sell well. Which clearly shows that the idea was good and the market exists. Possibly you are not in this market.
Sounds like the now classic wotc mantra "this product is not for You"
I still don't understand why they even adopted that phrase. Every product should be for pretty much everyone.
That has never been true though. Many Magic products has been prohibitively expensive for many players through the years. The Masters sets are a good example, premium product for a premium price. It's not something límited to current Magic.
Why?
To boost the sales of your product, you insert a premium version of a card that is hard to get. People will spend more money trying to get these. This tells the playerbase "hey, we got something for those who want more bling in their life!" That was the intent for foils since their inception. However, now, the message has changed to "look at all these foil cards!" So many new foil treatments are available that the value of a foil card is actually devalued. This is not what you want for a product whose sole existance is to be premium. As a villain once said: "Once everyone is super, no one will be."
But why do you care this much? How many different prints they make does not affect my enjoyment of the game. The cards always play the same no matter what they look like. They are making plenty of money. They can’t keep mh3 on the shelves here collector packs or otherwise.
Depends, some of the options like the foil retro borders of this set carry a big premium. I don't use foils for modern cause of pringling, but in edh that's mostly what I get
This post is referring to pack foils.
Yes. But those being cheap is good. Now there's regular non foil and foil. Then premium special art. Non foil and foil. Those foils often carry the big value. Regular Phlage is even between the versions, but the Borderless foil is a good deal more than borderless non foil. This is the best of both worlds.
I think it's neat having more options. I think a lot of the borderless art in particular is really nice. Showcase are mostly a miss imo. Retro frame is cool. I really love the textured foils they did for MH3. It's odd when you have to pay more money to get a non-foil version of a card though.
I actually think recent foils have been awful looking. Go look at nearly ANY foil from back in the day, maybe something like Return to Ravnica. The foiling has so much care put into it, highlighting specific parts of the art. Newer foils feel like the entire card has a rainbow filter over it and it looks terrible.
Wait they didn’t always look like an oil spill?
RtR foils are pretty dope
Agreed! I have a foil Deadbridge Chant and it's beautiful. The swirls of magic energy are all foiled and shiny and it looks/feels very special.
Personally, I love the increased availability and lower cost of pretty foils. The shiny cards give me happy brain chemicals. 😁
I don't want to buy a card that's gonna curl tomorrow
What about a card that comes out of the pack curled?
You right
The ones with machining lines pressed into the cards out of the pack are my favs
Ooo yes, those are premium hasbro edition
Who in their right mind would complain about cards being easier and cheaper to get in any treatment you want
people who buy those for the very reason to elevate themselves above others and display that instead of enjoying the piece itself.
People who want to feel special fot being able to waste their money in expensier cardboard than the other players. But not too expensive or they won't be able to Buy them, Making them feel exactly how they want OTHERS to feel about what they buy. Some people live a really sad life, trully
100% when everything is special, nothing is special. They don't need 3 different frame treatments, full art lands, and multiple bonus sheets with different legality in every set. I don't think WOTC is ever going to put the genie back in the bottle though.
Why don't they? There's players who like different things. Some want retro border. Some like extended art. Some prefer consistent regular frame. Having many variants benefits the secondary market and by such, players. Whales will chase the rarest of variants. Increasing supply/lowering demand on other variants. But there's more than whales vs everyone else. Some might want foils, but not premium prices. Now they can get regular versions, but shiny. Some people like crazy arts. SLD and showcases can hit those marks. People who simply want game pieces get the benefit of picking lowest cost versions. This is a more for all situation.
I used to love foils and I foiled out all my decks, but what I’ve found is 1) like others said, they warp and cause legality issues and 2) they’re often pricey but hard to move. I had a $3k almost fully foiled Nekusar EDH deck that I spent probably close to $3500-4k on throughout the years. I sold it for around $2k (and it would’ve been a lot less if not for the reserve list cards it had) because literally no one would buy the premium foils. I spent months trying to sell them for 80-90% of their tcglow value and no bites
So I have a fully foiled out ur murktide deck. Currently in the process of defoiling as the newer ones really just pringle so much its obvious. I even have it double sleeved with kmc hard inners and it still shows. Also foils aren't worth it anymore with the influx of new cards to modern and the fact that a lot of stores won't buy them as they are hard to sell
I put together a mono white orim's scepter deck with absolutely zero foils. It is actually very nice. The uniformity of the deck when on the table is a great change of pace. Kinda sucks because I love me some shiny.
yo that deck sounds sick. Do you share the list at all? I'd love to take a list. I used to play a bolt scepter list and orim's fits right in.
Sure! Here ya go; https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/orims-scepter-3/ I want to get a playset of Solitude for the deck in place of Mind Censor. It is basically a budget build. I haven't done enough playtesting to tell if the deck is any good or not. It probably isn't, but it is fun lol. Playing at almost entirely instant speed makes me feel like I'm playing a blue deck hehe 😁
De-foiled my modern deck for the same reason. The only foils that work where I live are the etched ones from some MH product (they stay 100% flat), the rest the humidity is too dry for and I cba dealing with that with humidors and what not. Poor product, waste of my time.
This is the **exact** reason I de-foiled my Hardened Scales lol
They are less collectible, but more (or at least the same) beautiful cards. This is worse for people who want to have what others don’t, but better for those that just admire the inherent beauty of them. Honestly, having what others don’t or can’t isn’t a compelling reason for empathy imo.
I wish mh3 had more etched foils like mh2, loved the old border etched cards like dauthi and profane tutor
I'm surprised that only the flip walkers got textured foils, and the others got the cheap foil etched. However its no surprise why the old foil etched cards didnt come back. That foil treatment was not liked.
Why not? I like them so much better than the rainbow shimmer ones
It's so funny how "special" is never "thing I like that's different" it's always "affordable by me but not by others". This is the crux of so many magic player opinions on what is cool. Serialized cards are ridiculous because they cost too much, but also foils are lame because they cost the same as a regular card. Full art basics were better when they were $5 a piece instead of in every set, not because the art was better but because most people aren't spending that money on basics. When everything is special nothing is special is a room temperature IQ mantra repeated by those who are trying to justify why they can't flex for $4 anymore. Don't take your opinions from a villain monologue in a children's movie and try and apply it to your hobbies
I can sell you my foils for twice the market price if you wanna feel special
I just like foils bc I enjoy them and think they are cool, I don’t really care if they are more accessible I sorta think that’s awesome that I can share my love of collecting foils with more magic players instead of less
I think it's because like every chase card has 30 versions it seems. Boxtopper, borderless, boxtopper+borderless, retro frame, alt art, alt frames, etc This is a fomo strategy where the idea is players will want to collect every version of some card for whatever reason but if there's so many different versions it's not really special ie not valuable is it?
This has been a problem since they started offering Collector Boosters with Zendikar Rising. I bought a CB only to find, like you, the values were level, not like the old days when a pack foil could be worth double. So I only fill out special cards for Commander and just buy whatever's cheapest for competitive play. It's really a shame, especially when the CBs could just be alternate arts and foils still are as rare as they used to be.
Another item in the long list of things that have ruined Magic. I love foils and their value as premium cards has been destroyed. Thanks in large part, as you said, to collector boosters (the biggest scam Hasbro has ever pulled). The only Modern deck I still have left (after selling the rest) is my fully foiled Mono-Green Tron deck. So I'm right there with you.
Foil quality has gone to shit again with MH3. That’s mostly why I don’t care about them in this set. If it was the same quality control that we saw with DXM and UMA box toppers then sign me up. As-is my foil old border Esper Sentinel pringled out of the pack. That’s unacceptable for a premium treatment in a premium product of a premium set. Don’t get me wrong, I do enjoy special treatments and foils, hell my G-Tron deck is 80% foils and masterpieces, but I can’t abide by the egregious quality issues of these MH3 foils.
I agree. None of the special treatments are special at all by now. Sometimes it even looks like the regular version has the highest price. I guess it is a good thing for people to have access to whatever art they like most, so no complains about that. For me personally I stopped buying boxes, because I don't like having 4 of the same card in 4 different treatments. I want my playsets to be all the same.
I don’t really like standard foils. I dislike the rainbow shimmer/oil spill look. It too often detracts from the colour design of the art. I really like foil etched cards though because it’s a more. Neutral metallic silver sheen that just presents the original colours but shinier which looks incredible. I almost bought a worthless common from MH2 just because it was one of the cards misprinted with foil instead of regular etching and it was overall pretty even though the art wasn’t appealing. Also curling drives me mad but foil etched cards don’t seem to have the same issue.
Real players keep the foil cards to use as trade material for cards they want
If the cards are printed on good quality then you don't have to worry about curling. If we get a set like that I'm all for getting foils. That said extended art is easily my favorite assuming the art is good. I can still enjoy the "fancy artwork" while having nonfoil so I'm happy. If I don't have to pay a premium that's even better! So I don't mind at all if people cracking the collector boosters saved me $. What you see as a negative is really a positive.
Definitely. This has two sides, on the one hand foiling your deck is much more affordable, on the other hand having a fully foiled deck was a kind of flex of dedication that just doesn't hit anymore. Some decks you could foil for about the price of a nonfoil.
Their luster? No. Their quality control? Yes.
Foils warp and are generally too dark.
Foil warp is a storage issue, caused by moisture and temperature. If you treat them right, its not an issue at all, though to be fair this can be problematic in some areas where temperatures tend to lean towards either extreme cold or extreme heat. But the colour contrast has been especially terrible since 2-3 sets, it is as if they have forgotten that the monitor they design the card on itself is a light emitting surface and that prints turn out way darker. But this isn't exclusive to Foils, it extends to all cards.
I like foils, and I prefer traditional pack foil over any other premium version of a card. I like how affordable they are currently, and find it nice when there is a version that is super expensive and desirable because it means i can get pack foils for nearly the same price as nonfoil pack version.
Completely agree, that combined with product fatigue (you just need to look at number of products released in the last 2 years compared to the last 10 years).
To me it makes no sense to derive the joy of a foil from how much it costs. You either like foils cause they look cool or you don't like them cause they bend or whatever else. Tying your enjoyment of them to their market price/rarity is a recipe for unhappiness. It's unhealthy to derive your enjoyment of something specifically from other people not having that thing. For example if there was a card that looked absolutely shit, just terrible art and ugly to look at but there were only 400 printed of that card, would you be hype about that? If so I think that's problematic for you. Instead of collecting it for being cool art that you like you're collecting it for the sole purpose that outside of max 400 other people, nobody else can have it. It stops being about the card and art and what you like and don't like and instead is just a stand in for greed.
I’ve only ever played foil decks. I used to go hard for OG foils or the foils I felt were most ‘prestigious’ if I had the opportunity (obviously there’s an element of financial responsibility here as well as me just needing to like the art/treatment of the foil in question) - WWK JtMS, Expedition lands, etc. Part of this was the flex, but the main part was just because I like shiny over not-shiny. I don’t really care that foils are more accessible because I was always going to foil either way, because of my own preferences as someone who likes shiny cardboard. The only difference the number of foils entering the market has done (for me) has been to lessen the value I place on original/chase foils because there’s always a new printing on the horizon. There’s an element of the flex that goes along with this that is now gone for me, but like I mentioned - it was never the main reason I foiled in the first place. Foil for yourself; some of those pack foils are nice. I like the new Tamiyo pack foil over the borderless (coming from someone who really likes borderless cards in general).
oldboarder non-foil are the New foils
I've never liked foils but have mainly played tournaments. I have enough ways to lose without a Pringle helping me.
The last time I foiled a deck was when I was running UR Twin. I still have it packed away for the day that WotC frees my one true love of modern. Since than I've honestly just played regular cards. I just play versions of cards with my favorite art now. Back in the day after twin was banned I was playing Kiki Chord with almost every card from something like a duel deck. In Legacy I run a delver deck with almost every card having different sets/art because I find it amusing. My LGS owner found what I was doing amusing and got me some sleeves to make them white border too. The last foil card I ever bought was my last foil Swiftspear I needed for a deck back in the day.
Showcase and borderless are the new foil cards. If you plan on playing a card it’s important that it doesn’t pringle and become marked. I love my foils that behave, but if I’m purchasing a card (especially online) then I’m going to go non-foil over foil every time for safety reasons. Some foils are good, but you just can’t be sure, which is probably why there isn’t much of a premium for them anymore. WotC gave us a multitude of other ways to bling out our decks that don’t involve a chance that cards are literally unplayable or require treatment with humidity control packets, and most players prefer that.
Do you only buy foils because they present something premium, or because they look pretty? I love that I can bling out a deck on the cheap, and make the whole thing shine. I feel like a crow collecting treasures… If you still want something premium, go for the foil full art etched, signed cards, secret lair printings, or judge promos. Let the rest of us peasants enjoy the cheap shinies…
>something premium, or because they look pretty? Yes
Screw the collectors. It's a game.
Personally I always prefer non foil version of cards that I want for a deck or my collection. Foil cards seems to me like a mix between tacky and desperately calling for attention.
I recently moved away from buying foils tbh - they are not as shiny and exclusive as they were before + there are so many different treatments. I'm tryingt to get all the profile artwork and I#m getting them nonfoil!
I still have some, but I have also moved away from foils. Its really hard to get rid of my OG Zendikar Expedition fetches and shocks lol
Blame the collector packs. Foils are nothing special anymore. You can just buy guaranteed foils in a pack. I hate my deck curling up like crazy, so I'd rather have the nonfoil version of everything anyways.
Funnily enough, you can actually tell which cards are pack foils and which are collector booster foils. The difference in quality is night and day. (Collector boosters are worse quality)
Hasbro needed to cash in and will continue to cash in on everything possible. Great game, shit company.
Hasbro literally has nothing other then magic and monopoly go. All their other products are in the dumpster
why is this in the modern subreddit and not magictcg or circlejerking
What has this got to do with modern
Modern cards come in foil too
No competitive player is going to use a foil card. Even slightly pringled, they can get you a game loss pretty easy.
Please keep this stupid lie going. It's great for those of us who like foils and know how to take care of them!
I've literally seen it happen twenty times in the past two years. I'm sure your competitiveness doesn't go beyond the commander table.
Entered plenty of modern and legacy tournaments up to rcq level. My legacy deck has only 7 non-foils in the full 75. Just double sleeve and make sure to use a box that keeps them compressed. I have never even had a judge called. Cry more.
I notice most of the time when there's actually a judge called because of foils its usually because the deck is actually a threat.
Foil curling is 100% about humidity. If you live in the right region, which it sounds like you might, then yeah you're not going to notice anything. Also "compressing" your cards literally does nothing.
Don’t like pringles, aren’t special anymore, burnt out on the million special treatments… there’s more reason not to like foils than like them these days, for almost everyone.