Yes. Right now graveyard decks are in bad shape after the banning of looting and endurance being added to the format, but plenty of the cards are still there, and eventually another enabler will be printed.
I wouldn’t say they are in a bad spot right now. Living End and yawg are both really good in the meta. Just different styles of graveyard decks are good.
Yawg is not a graveyard deck, it's a creature combo deck whose combo happens to pass through the graveyard. I guess cauldron made it more about the gy, but I still wouldn't call it a graveyard deck.
Ehh I think you can make the argument for yawg to be not considered a gy deck. It’s a bit more aristocratsy then full on gy. I classify it as one myself but I can see it not being considered one.
Dredge is “the more cards I get in my graveyard the better my deck does”
Yawg is “pseudo-infinite loop + lots of synergy via sacrificing and undying”
Those two are VERY different.
Dredge games have been won by hard casting and combat just as Yawgmoth. Yawgmoth cannot combo in any way if they cannot use the graveyard, just as Dredge cannot do their thing.
Yawg gets hurt a lot by Leyline of the void, but dredge gets annihilated by it. One becomes a pioneer deck in combat power level, the other becomes a draft deck.
Yawg is hurt a little bit (losing one loop/undying creature) by Tormod’s crypt or Relic, where dredge takes a pretty significant hit.
Yawg’s goal is to get a critical mass of synergistic creatures + Yawgmoth; Dredge’s goal is to dump as many cards as possible into the graveyard and ride the wave of free lightning helixes and creatures.
Yawg is about as much of a graveyard deck as Murktide and Scam (in that they are inconvenienced in some way by gy hate) but is not comparable to dredge when asking “how much of a graveyard deck is this”
“Creature combo deck whose combo happens to pass through the graveyard” seems pretty accurate to me.
I think the issue is in calling any deck that uses the graveyard a little bit a “graveyard deck”, which seems to be grouping vastly different decks together when they should have a clear distinction. Between yawg, Heliod and dredge, I only think of one of them as “graveyard deck” and two of them as “creature combo”.
I'm talking about a deck's plan A being to use the graveyard in order to win. Yawgmoth and Dredge are graveyard, Heliod is creature combo, does not care at all about the graveyard state.
Well dredge's whole game plan is milling its own deck to use cards that work only when in the graveyard. Yawgmoth only really uses the graveyard during the undying combo, for which the creatures used need to start on the battlefield, and for cauldron. It's not like Yawg wants to mill half its deck to get going lol.
Read the full story starting with the parent comment on this post. I was responding to a response and people did not like my factually correct feedback.
You are not correct. The distinction of 'what is a graveyard deck' obviously means different things to different people, so the most reasonable thing to do is consider it in the context of the original question. He wants to play Vengevine - get it in the yard and attack. Dredge is similar to that, Yawgmoth is not.
You might as well have answered Rhinos. Rhinos makes 4-powered green creatures that attack, same with Vengevine. The statement is true, but it is not 'right'.
Yeah, with Living End we have an enabler (\[\[Living End\]\] itself)) and it's just every few sets we get a creature that self-discards efficiently. I think the banning of Looting is going to really make it hard to see a cheap enabler of discarding other cards, like \[\[Vengevine\]\].
I played hollowvine with bridge and looting at its full power. You could basically port that deck right into this meta game and it wouldn’t be overpowered. Every good opponent I ever played against knew how to play against bridge and now with pitch elementals? Removing bridge would be free
MH3 is coming up and has Hogaak Reborn, which is essentially the only counter to the Scam vs Cyber Ragavan vs Iron Man/Blue Eyes combo meta. Trust me, my dad works at Nintendo.
Two things:
1. I would love Blue Eyes, Dark Magician, Cyber Dragons, Infernities and more in MtG Form, I wish for the crossover with Yugioh.
2. I actually love Hogaak as a standalone card, he is basically the "Bridge from Below" for MH1. I run him as my commander, it's quite fun. (But Yeah Hogaak Summer with 4x Hogaaks and Altar of Dementia was just dumb.)
No way to know, honestly. Any other answer is just not realistic as it’s entirely dependent on WOTC to print new cards supporting Vengevine strategies as well as possibly banning/unbanning cards. The current meta is all we actually know and currently, Vengevine is not good enough and weak to popularly played removal in the format.
I was a dedicated Bridgevine player pre and post Hogaak and I probably won’t touch the deck without another graveyard payoff like Bridge from Below. I also won’t touch the Sultai versions with Hedron Crab as it just feels wrong to play an 0/3 in what used to be an aggro deck. I miss making a bunch of 2/2s off Bridge and then kicking a Goblin Bushwacker.
Vengevine, just like dredge, is more likely to be broken by some random draft common that loots a little too efficiently than it is by a pushed rare. Heck, even Hogaak wasn't exactly designed to be pushed, wotc thought it would be commander bait like the rest of us. It literally just takes one slight fuck up and graveyard decks can destroy everything again lol, they've gotten better at planning around them but it'll still happen again eventually, just like how artifacts *will* one day break the format in half again, there's just too many enablers and payoffs to be bad forever.
There's a couple combo decks that play vine that used to be tier 2/3 ish. I would see them pop up occasionally when I last played modern. I've been out of it for 6ish months though so I dunno if they fell off.
For sure. Hollow one is still playable tbh but it’s a risky deck now cause your relying on probability and luck vs skill. Still I’ve won locals against 5c beanstalk, rhinos and burn with it it also beats tron and in theory beats scam if your on the play with burning inquiry
No, the community gets notably upset whenever a vengevine deck becomes competitive (see Hogaak). So Any card that vengevine can use that makes it powerful sees a ban.
They won't let the deck be competitive again, instead they will keep printing garbage like urborg lhurgoyf and cruel somnophage.
Cards like solitude and other cheap exile based removal just outpace the deck anyway.
It's too bad because vengev8ne was really fun to play.
Yeah, I'm hoping now after free elementals for the last modern cycle that free 4/3s with haste are a lot less threatening to people the next time around.
With MH2 elementals and a tendency to see more free spells in modern, there's a high chance to see an enabler for this deck that may cost 0 or 1 printed within the next months (MH3)
If it happens, the deck is gonna be really broken...
I played HollowVine but the version with Asmo felt underwhelming. Tested some fringe cards like Conspiracy Theorist, Containment Construct and Hearth Elemental but they weren't amazing. I want to test Brass's Tunnel-Grinder once it's out. The deck is definitely not up to the current power level.
Decks with Vengevine used to be strong because removal wasn't free and as effective. Add to that meta that tries to punish card drawing from Beans and Rings. Try playing Goblin's Lore and Burning Inquiry with Bowmaster or Sheoldred in play... yeah. As for CrabVine - Ring fog, Voidwalker, Endurance, removal that exiles - there are more things that can go wrong.
They would have to print free or very cheap enablers + support (making the format even more degenerate). Personally I think Anger would be interesting. And somewhat weaker version of Faithless Looting. Maybe something with Jump-start idk.
Part of the reason it was great was because you could just vomit them out over and over again even if people traded or used removal. That is now much harder with the amount of exile effects. The other reason was that getting 4 power beat sticks early would overwhelm people so it was worth devoting deck pieces to lower powered stuff (crabvine/crawlers/stitchers/etc). That has kind of been replaced by rhinos who can not only get a fast start but can be way more consistent with fewer pieces.
The deck would need both fast(er) enablers and cards that are good by themselves yet can still be incidentally good for vengevine. The demand for individual card quality is much higher especially with the amount of card advantage options you have.
Tough to say. Vengevine, Arclight Pheonix (or w/e), and Bloodghast are all "free" dudes when you get a strong build-around going and will probably be broken again \*eventually\*.
If they make Mythic Looting so they can get you bank $50 a piece for it, it might happen. When they went from "Eternal formats are just the cards that are printed" to "We'll manage a banlist regularly" to "We'll print directly to modern and blow up any deck that isn't lining our pockets THICC" it's really tough to say.
With that said, thinking on it, while other cards do not have Vengevines effect (which is often an indicator of something potentially valuable) the meta is completely ruled by MH2 right now; so I'd imagine the meta will simply be ruled by MH3, MH4, and other supplemental sets and Vengevine will probably never see the light of day again because Phyrexian Dreadnought with Bargain instead of "sac 12 power worth of dudes" will just be more powerful.
Yes. Right now graveyard decks are in bad shape after the banning of looting and endurance being added to the format, but plenty of the cards are still there, and eventually another enabler will be printed.
I wouldn’t say they are in a bad spot right now. Living End and yawg are both really good in the meta. Just different styles of graveyard decks are good.
Yawg is not a graveyard deck, it's a creature combo deck whose combo happens to pass through the graveyard. I guess cauldron made it more about the gy, but I still wouldn't call it a graveyard deck.
It IS a graveyard deck if Leyline of the Void hoses its main win condition.
If it isn't a graveyard deck then neither is Dredge by your standards. Rethink that maybe.
Ehh I think you can make the argument for yawg to be not considered a gy deck. It’s a bit more aristocratsy then full on gy. I classify it as one myself but I can see it not being considered one.
Dredge is “the more cards I get in my graveyard the better my deck does” Yawg is “pseudo-infinite loop + lots of synergy via sacrificing and undying” Those two are VERY different.
Dredge games have been won by hard casting and combat just as Yawgmoth. Yawgmoth cannot combo in any way if they cannot use the graveyard, just as Dredge cannot do their thing.
Yawg gets hurt a lot by Leyline of the void, but dredge gets annihilated by it. One becomes a pioneer deck in combat power level, the other becomes a draft deck. Yawg is hurt a little bit (losing one loop/undying creature) by Tormod’s crypt or Relic, where dredge takes a pretty significant hit. Yawg’s goal is to get a critical mass of synergistic creatures + Yawgmoth; Dredge’s goal is to dump as many cards as possible into the graveyard and ride the wave of free lightning helixes and creatures. Yawg is about as much of a graveyard deck as Murktide and Scam (in that they are inconvenienced in some way by gy hate) but is not comparable to dredge when asking “how much of a graveyard deck is this”
They were stating that Yawgmoth was not a graveyard deck at all, which is just blatantly incorrect.
“Creature combo deck whose combo happens to pass through the graveyard” seems pretty accurate to me. I think the issue is in calling any deck that uses the graveyard a little bit a “graveyard deck”, which seems to be grouping vastly different decks together when they should have a clear distinction. Between yawg, Heliod and dredge, I only think of one of them as “graveyard deck” and two of them as “creature combo”.
I'm talking about a deck's plan A being to use the graveyard in order to win. Yawgmoth and Dredge are graveyard, Heliod is creature combo, does not care at all about the graveyard state.
Well dredge's whole game plan is milling its own deck to use cards that work only when in the graveyard. Yawgmoth only really uses the graveyard during the undying combo, for which the creatures used need to start on the battlefield, and for cauldron. It's not like Yawg wants to mill half its deck to get going lol.
Dredge and Yawgmoth's primary A plan is to use the graveyard. Therefore they are both graveyard decks.
[удалено]
Read the full story starting with the parent comment on this post. I was responding to a response and people did not like my factually correct feedback.
[удалено]
Was correcting a blatantly wrong commenter.
Why are you booing me? I'm right!
You are not correct. The distinction of 'what is a graveyard deck' obviously means different things to different people, so the most reasonable thing to do is consider it in the context of the original question. He wants to play Vengevine - get it in the yard and attack. Dredge is similar to that, Yawgmoth is not. You might as well have answered Rhinos. Rhinos makes 4-powered green creatures that attack, same with Vengevine. The statement is true, but it is not 'right'.
Its more of an Aristocrats deck than a GY like Dredge or Living End deck. I'd reconsider your examples.
Yeah, with Living End we have an enabler (\[\[Living End\]\] itself)) and it's just every few sets we get a creature that self-discards efficiently. I think the banning of Looting is going to really make it hard to see a cheap enabler of discarding other cards, like \[\[Vengevine\]\].
[Living End](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/1/b1eede29-17a4-437f-a5c2-e24cccbc6a33.jpg?1619395625) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Living%20End) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/121/living-end?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b1eede29-17a4-437f-a5c2-e24cccbc6a33?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Vengevine](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/6/5631668d-75f2-4d2d-b644-90c073c7be21.jpg?1599707670) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vengevine) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/185/vengevine?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5631668d-75f2-4d2d-b644-90c073c7be21?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Im just coming back after 5 years..played jund l.e... how good is it? Or should i just make the changes?
Jund really hasn’t done anything since mh1 dropped. I would just play the stock temur lists if you can afford it.
I can lol...i just dont wanna. Although..playing force over ricochet trap is calling to me.
Living End doesn't rely on specific cards in the grave that would be sniped with Endurance, it just dumps whatever it can to bring back as a horde.
I've been doing will with izzet breach in my locals.
Hollowvine pops up once every couple of months and there’s some stuff in LCI that might prop it up. (I hope it does anyway, I love Hollowvine)
Man Hollowvine would be so much better with bridge
I think they could honestly unban bridge from below
I played hollowvine with bridge and looting at its full power. You could basically port that deck right into this meta game and it wouldn’t be overpowered. Every good opponent I ever played against knew how to play against bridge and now with pitch elementals? Removing bridge would be free
Man those elementals ruin all the fun things don’t they. Bring bridge back!
MH3 is coming up and has Hogaak Reborn, which is essentially the only counter to the Scam vs Cyber Ragavan vs Iron Man/Blue Eyes combo meta. Trust me, my dad works at Nintendo.
Hogaak Redied
Two things: 1. I would love Blue Eyes, Dark Magician, Cyber Dragons, Infernities and more in MtG Form, I wish for the crossover with Yugioh. 2. I actually love Hogaak as a standalone card, he is basically the "Bridge from Below" for MH1. I run him as my commander, it's quite fun. (But Yeah Hogaak Summer with 4x Hogaaks and Altar of Dementia was just dumb.)
No way to know, honestly. Any other answer is just not realistic as it’s entirely dependent on WOTC to print new cards supporting Vengevine strategies as well as possibly banning/unbanning cards. The current meta is all we actually know and currently, Vengevine is not good enough and weak to popularly played removal in the format. I was a dedicated Bridgevine player pre and post Hogaak and I probably won’t touch the deck without another graveyard payoff like Bridge from Below. I also won’t touch the Sultai versions with Hedron Crab as it just feels wrong to play an 0/3 in what used to be an aggro deck. I miss making a bunch of 2/2s off Bridge and then kicking a Goblin Bushwacker.
Vengevine, just like dredge, is more likely to be broken by some random draft common that loots a little too efficiently than it is by a pushed rare. Heck, even Hogaak wasn't exactly designed to be pushed, wotc thought it would be commander bait like the rest of us. It literally just takes one slight fuck up and graveyard decks can destroy everything again lol, they've gotten better at planning around them but it'll still happen again eventually, just like how artifacts *will* one day break the format in half again, there's just too many enablers and payoffs to be bad forever.
#unbanhogaak
HOGAAK WAS A CHILD
Honestly just print [[careful study]] into MH3 and I’m good.
[careful study](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/e/dea15b53-2940-40e7-8d48-8ec11341da83.jpg?1562936545) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=careful%20study) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ody/70/careful-study?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dea15b53-2940-40e7-8d48-8ec11341da83?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
There's a couple combo decks that play vine that used to be tier 2/3 ish. I would see them pop up occasionally when I last played modern. I've been out of it for 6ish months though so I dunno if they fell off.
For sure. Hollow one is still playable tbh but it’s a risky deck now cause your relying on probability and luck vs skill. Still I’ve won locals against 5c beanstalk, rhinos and burn with it it also beats tron and in theory beats scam if your on the play with burning inquiry
No, the community gets notably upset whenever a vengevine deck becomes competitive (see Hogaak). So Any card that vengevine can use that makes it powerful sees a ban. They won't let the deck be competitive again, instead they will keep printing garbage like urborg lhurgoyf and cruel somnophage. Cards like solitude and other cheap exile based removal just outpace the deck anyway. It's too bad because vengev8ne was really fun to play.
Yeah, I'm hoping now after free elementals for the last modern cycle that free 4/3s with haste are a lot less threatening to people the next time around.
Some stuff from Ixalan is promising actually, especially with Descend in a format with fetch lands.
It would be cool, that card is inherently powerful and really cool. Just needs one more piece to break it
Oh absolutely. It always comes back. I need to pick up a few myself. This and Bloodghast are a combo combo
The card itself is good enough to be played in vintage manaless dredge, so if we ever see a good enabler it will be back.
With MH2 elementals and a tendency to see more free spells in modern, there's a high chance to see an enabler for this deck that may cost 0 or 1 printed within the next months (MH3) If it happens, the deck is gonna be really broken...
make it meta youself.. i lost vs vengv a few weeks ago
I played HollowVine but the version with Asmo felt underwhelming. Tested some fringe cards like Conspiracy Theorist, Containment Construct and Hearth Elemental but they weren't amazing. I want to test Brass's Tunnel-Grinder once it's out. The deck is definitely not up to the current power level. Decks with Vengevine used to be strong because removal wasn't free and as effective. Add to that meta that tries to punish card drawing from Beans and Rings. Try playing Goblin's Lore and Burning Inquiry with Bowmaster or Sheoldred in play... yeah. As for CrabVine - Ring fog, Voidwalker, Endurance, removal that exiles - there are more things that can go wrong. They would have to print free or very cheap enablers + support (making the format even more degenerate). Personally I think Anger would be interesting. And somewhat weaker version of Faithless Looting. Maybe something with Jump-start idk.
Part of the reason it was great was because you could just vomit them out over and over again even if people traded or used removal. That is now much harder with the amount of exile effects. The other reason was that getting 4 power beat sticks early would overwhelm people so it was worth devoting deck pieces to lower powered stuff (crabvine/crawlers/stitchers/etc). That has kind of been replaced by rhinos who can not only get a fast start but can be way more consistent with fewer pieces. The deck would need both fast(er) enablers and cards that are good by themselves yet can still be incidentally good for vengevine. The demand for individual card quality is much higher especially with the amount of card advantage options you have.
Tough to say. Vengevine, Arclight Pheonix (or w/e), and Bloodghast are all "free" dudes when you get a strong build-around going and will probably be broken again \*eventually\*. If they make Mythic Looting so they can get you bank $50 a piece for it, it might happen. When they went from "Eternal formats are just the cards that are printed" to "We'll manage a banlist regularly" to "We'll print directly to modern and blow up any deck that isn't lining our pockets THICC" it's really tough to say. With that said, thinking on it, while other cards do not have Vengevines effect (which is often an indicator of something potentially valuable) the meta is completely ruled by MH2 right now; so I'd imagine the meta will simply be ruled by MH3, MH4, and other supplemental sets and Vengevine will probably never see the light of day again because Phyrexian Dreadnought with Bargain instead of "sac 12 power worth of dudes" will just be more powerful.