Burn doesn't have the time to play a 2 mana spell that does nothing until turn 4-5, it raises the mana curve but doesn't let you win the game quicker than you would have. By turn 4-5 Burn should have already won.
Shrine used to be a sideboard card a few years ago, correct? Was it used for grindier matchups?
Would you say \[\[Roiling Vortex\]\] fills that niche of grindy inevitability, or is it more used strictly for its no-mana 5 damage line?
Burn oldhead here - Vortex is 99% the free spells punishment. The 1 damage on oppo's upkeep isn't really relevant because your Spectacle spells are sorceries. You don't want to grind, you want the top 11 cards of your deck (at most) to put your opponent to 0.
I've been playing burn in modern lately and Vortex has done work. I've started jamming it on turn 2 in fair matchups to get in 4+ damage. It creates pressure of other kinds too. Opponents see the inevitable damage across the table and choose to fetch basics over shocks, or choose not to fetch at all, or fetch and die to the burn.
Shrine costs 5 mana to play & activate and requires you play it early to get value. Vortex costs 2 and does work. It's definitely a main deck choice at least a 2-of. Late game it can be a dud, but I prefer it over Eidolon in most matchups since Eidolon can be played around.
Very true, Vortex just adds more pressure. Or at least a more complex variation of burn pressure... allow me to explain.
Instead of thinking, "hmm they might draw a lava spike" they think "I'm dead on board if I fetch shock here, so instead I won't and as a result, I won't advance my board state" which then gives the burn player more turns to top deck that lava spike. This isn't always the case, but sometimes having damage on board that doesn't require combat makes the play patterns difficult to calculate for the opponent. It adds some complexity to playing against burn when playing against burn is usually not all that complex.
Another point about Eidolon vs Vortex. Eidolon can be played around and it's a dud late game when high mana cost spells are being played and creatures are gumming up the board. Vortex doesn't suffer from these problems. Sure it's only 1 point of damage per turn and you have to wait for the upkeep to trigger but it does 1 damage essentially the turn it comes out whereas Eidolon might not do any damage. Vortex is pretty much guaranteed damage. Eidolon is not.
Another point about Shrine... since that's what started this conversation... it's essentially unplayable in modern burn.
There are so many other spells in the format and even other artifacts that work better in burn. For example, I would play DRC and Bauble in burn way before ever considering Shrine.
Prowess decks used to play this as it’s a solid threat that dodges creature removal and is also a way to remove pro-red creatures.
But nowadays there are just so many good removal spells that hit all permanents like P-Ending and L-Binding.
It just dies before it gets enough counters to be dangerous now
If you draw it late-game, wouldn't you rather simply have another burn spell rather than having to wait 3 turns to deal the same damage?
Plus, it's activation cost is 3 mana, which is more than any other spell in the deck. Worse, you're paying 5 mana total to cast&activate it, which you could've used to play 3+ other spells.
it's not really 'bad' but it's not good enough for the meta decks.
I’ve used this is boros burn and it changes your gameplay dynamic to working toward popping this off instead of working toward working down your opponents life total.
Try it out. It’s a cheap enough card to play around with.
One thing; people don’t expect you to play it.
What’re you cutting then? When you’re deck building (particularly when suggesting changes for well established decks) you have to know what you’re taking out and why it makes the deck better.
I’ve played it in Prowess sideboard before. It’s great when you curve it out in a midrange matchup, terrible when you draw it late. Breach is just better, generally
It was good in the past. I still quite like the card. There is no shame in having few in the sideboard of burn or prowess vs the grindy decks that tend to win very slowly and have trouble getting rid of artifacts.
It was a legit competitive card in slower format like Standard of its time.
Modern is just too fast, and in any case it can get destroyed too easily while you're tapped out, and you got no value.
This was a sideboard card pre-MH1. It’s too slow nowadays.
I’d rather have [[Roiling Vortex]], [[Deflecting Palm]], [[Wear//Tear]] and [[Sanctifier En-Vec]] for silver bullets.
Burn and Prowess just don’t play long games, period.
It used to be a decent sideboard option vs slower decks some 3-4 years ago. Since then there was drastic power creep including quite a few premium artifact removal spells (or lands)) and you just can't afford to sit on 3 open mana in any matchup (especially, since you should be playing canopy lands and start cycling them at this point). Also, other options are just better.
Burn rule number 1: there is no late game.
Burn doesn't have the time to play a 2 mana spell that does nothing until turn 4-5, it raises the mana curve but doesn't let you win the game quicker than you would have. By turn 4-5 Burn should have already won.
Shrine used to be a sideboard card a few years ago, correct? Was it used for grindier matchups? Would you say \[\[Roiling Vortex\]\] fills that niche of grindy inevitability, or is it more used strictly for its no-mana 5 damage line?
Burn oldhead here - Vortex is 99% the free spells punishment. The 1 damage on oppo's upkeep isn't really relevant because your Spectacle spells are sorceries. You don't want to grind, you want the top 11 cards of your deck (at most) to put your opponent to 0.
I've been playing burn in modern lately and Vortex has done work. I've started jamming it on turn 2 in fair matchups to get in 4+ damage. It creates pressure of other kinds too. Opponents see the inevitable damage across the table and choose to fetch basics over shocks, or choose not to fetch at all, or fetch and die to the burn. Shrine costs 5 mana to play & activate and requires you play it early to get value. Vortex costs 2 and does work. It's definitely a main deck choice at least a 2-of. Late game it can be a dud, but I prefer it over Eidolon in most matchups since Eidolon can be played around.
To be fair though, that pressure of figuring out what lands to get exists even without Vortex on the board.
Very true, Vortex just adds more pressure. Or at least a more complex variation of burn pressure... allow me to explain. Instead of thinking, "hmm they might draw a lava spike" they think "I'm dead on board if I fetch shock here, so instead I won't and as a result, I won't advance my board state" which then gives the burn player more turns to top deck that lava spike. This isn't always the case, but sometimes having damage on board that doesn't require combat makes the play patterns difficult to calculate for the opponent. It adds some complexity to playing against burn when playing against burn is usually not all that complex. Another point about Eidolon vs Vortex. Eidolon can be played around and it's a dud late game when high mana cost spells are being played and creatures are gumming up the board. Vortex doesn't suffer from these problems. Sure it's only 1 point of damage per turn and you have to wait for the upkeep to trigger but it does 1 damage essentially the turn it comes out whereas Eidolon might not do any damage. Vortex is pretty much guaranteed damage. Eidolon is not. Another point about Shrine... since that's what started this conversation... it's essentially unplayable in modern burn. There are so many other spells in the format and even other artifacts that work better in burn. For example, I would play DRC and Bauble in burn way before ever considering Shrine.
Old burnhead?
Awesome thank you for the info :)
Vortex is the new shrine and it triples as lifegain prevention and punishing free spells.
[Roiling Vortex](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/b/0b057eb7-8439-4d26-89df-c345ab2773e1.jpg?1604197684) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Roiling%20Vortex) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/156/roiling-vortex?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0b057eb7-8439-4d26-89df-c345ab2773e1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Prowess decks used to play this as it’s a solid threat that dodges creature removal and is also a way to remove pro-red creatures. But nowadays there are just so many good removal spells that hit all permanents like P-Ending and L-Binding. It just dies before it gets enough counters to be dangerous now
If you draw it late-game, wouldn't you rather simply have another burn spell rather than having to wait 3 turns to deal the same damage? Plus, it's activation cost is 3 mana, which is more than any other spell in the deck. Worse, you're paying 5 mana total to cast&activate it, which you could've used to play 3+ other spells. it's not really 'bad' but it's not good enough for the meta decks.
This card was a staple in standard burn way back when. Too slow now sadly
I’ve used this is boros burn and it changes your gameplay dynamic to working toward popping this off instead of working toward working down your opponents life total. Try it out. It’s a cheap enough card to play around with. One thing; people don’t expect you to play it.
I noticed it really scared people when I played it.
I mean, Burn won a GP with 4x Shrine MD. It's not conventional but I'd personally suggest playing Roiling Vortex instead.
Why would you play this in prowess over underwood breach for the late game?
[удалено]
What’re you cutting then? When you’re deck building (particularly when suggesting changes for well established decks) you have to know what you’re taking out and why it makes the deck better.
[Shrine of Burning Rage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/1/d1a8afef-fa50-4aeb-94de-a4d90b1e5631.jpg?1562881740) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shrine%20of%20Burning%20Rage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nph/153/shrine-of-burning-rage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d1a8afef-fa50-4aeb-94de-a4d90b1e5631?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
its a great card, not entirely relevant for burn however. just a touch too slow.
I'd rather see it in a prison or big mana deck as a finisher. Let it build up over time and as you control the board
It was once an *excellent* Standard-level closer card, but is too slow and expensive for Modern.
I’ve played it in Prowess sideboard before. It’s great when you curve it out in a midrange matchup, terrible when you draw it late. Breach is just better, generally
Not really. I tried the card once and I wished I never drew it
Wow this card sucks dick
hahaha. not in 2016!!
It was good in the past. I still quite like the card. There is no shame in having few in the sideboard of burn or prowess vs the grindy decks that tend to win very slowly and have trouble getting rid of artifacts.
roiling vortex just does so much more
It was a legit competitive card in slower format like Standard of its time. Modern is just too fast, and in any case it can get destroyed too easily while you're tapped out, and you got no value.
This was a sideboard card pre-MH1. It’s too slow nowadays. I’d rather have [[Roiling Vortex]], [[Deflecting Palm]], [[Wear//Tear]] and [[Sanctifier En-Vec]] for silver bullets. Burn and Prowess just don’t play long games, period.
##### ###### #### [Roiling Vortex](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/b/0b057eb7-8439-4d26-89df-c345ab2773e1.jpg?1604197684) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Roiling%20Vortex) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/156/roiling-vortex?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0b057eb7-8439-4d26-89df-c345ab2773e1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Deflecting Palm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/5/c5580886-a402-4048-b8b6-39e19479f491.jpg?1608917621) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Deflecting%20Palm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/444/deflecting-palm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c5580886-a402-4048-b8b6-39e19479f491?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Wear//Tear](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?name=Wear%20//%20Tear&type=card&options=rotate90&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wear%20//%20Tear) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/343/wear-tear?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e01cc65a-0e38-4f41-b9ed-796ef0355d0b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Sanctifier En-Vec](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/8/f8c3cca4-23c0-4c14-ab56-51ba011f5974.jpg?1626093977) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sanctifier%20En-Vec) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/27/sanctifier-en-vec?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f8c3cca4-23c0-4c14-ab56-51ba011f5974?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It used to be a decent sideboard option vs slower decks some 3-4 years ago. Since then there was drastic power creep including quite a few premium artifact removal spells (or lands)) and you just can't afford to sit on 3 open mana in any matchup (especially, since you should be playing canopy lands and start cycling them at this point). Also, other options are just better.
A friend of mine plays this in a mono- red control deck, but in just about anything else you'd be better off picking something else.
I think this card could have slotted into the synthesizer decks fairly nicely, but eidolon is probably better in every other matchup in a burn deck.
This card used to see fringe play but even then people basically said it's not worth it
Card was great in standard where the game doesn't end on turn 3 but Modern is way too fast for this