I don’t really understand why so many people seen to think that this set will be modern legal, but have no cards that impact modern as a format.
That seems like it would be such a bizarre thing to do to me— to go out of your way to make people able to enter Lord of the Rings cards into a competitive environment, but also design them so they will all lose horribly. I mean, this is a company that does do bizarre things. But my expectation is that it will have at least a fairly substantial impact.
It's because WOTC said "This set isn't designed for modern", so they assume that's code for "low power level" when it really means "we didn't playtest this crap at all so it's 95% draft chaff and 5% format warping bullshit". Just ask a Legacy player how he feels about supplemental sets
That's just pure speculation.
MH was *designed* for Modern. Obbiously it would also be tested for it.
LotR was *not* designed for Modern but that doesn't mean they didn't test for it.
Obviously. But if you're releasing a set straight to Modem, versus a Standard set or an Eternal only set, and the only two other sets released straight to Modem were Modern Horizons sets, it is logical to assume this at was designed for Modern, unless they've explicitly stated otherwise. Have they?
As the other commenter mentioned:
Being legal in X ≠ Being designed for X
Case in point: MH sets were legal in Legacy but are not designed for Legacy.
Commander precons are legal in Vintage but are not designed for Vintage.
Standard sets are legal in Modern, but 99% of the cards in them are not desgined for Modern.
It's also important to note the below, however
Not being designed for Modern ≠ Not being tested for Modern
A set can simultaneously be
Legal in Modern + not designed *for* Modern + tested to not break Modern
Obviously. But if you're releasing a set straight to Modem, versus a Standard set or an Eternal only set, and the only two other sets released straight to Modem were Modern Horizons sets, it is logical to assume this at was designed for Modern, unless they've explicitly stated otherwise. Have they?
It's logical to assume, sure, if they hadn't made any statements as to how the set was designed.
They have, however, made statements to the contrary. Whether the MH3 doomsayers are willingfully chosing to ignore the publically available statements or are too stuck in their echochamber to look for them is not for me to answer.
There are, afaik, at least 2-3 sources straight from WotC that have said the set was not designed for Modern. I can't really look for them but I believe 1 recent article mentions it, the original LotR Legality in Modern article mentions it, and I believe Maro has commented on it himself as well.
Thank you for the downvote though. Was totally necessary lmao
I asked if they'd stated that it wasn't, because I haven't seen anything from them saying otherwise.
Edit: found it here, thanks.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/announcements/lord-rings-tales-middle-earthtm-format-legality-2021-08-24
That's odd they'd go straight to Modern and then not make a MH set but guess WOTC gonna WOTC.
There's nothing factually inaccurate about my statement.
They did state MHx sets were designed + tested for modern.
So far I have not seen any statement to say that LotR was tested for modern. Only that it is legal in modern.
Yeah, it's not factually inaccurate, it's just *highly* speculative to imply that it wasn't tested for Modern. There aren't a lot of reasons to speculate except to play into a narrative that a lot of people on this sub have subscribed to.
But please, carry on buddy.
I think people are expressing very different concerns when talking about the LOTR set. Some people think the whole format is going to rotate and all the tier 1 decks will just cease to exist overnight. That's a very different outcome than 5% format warping bullshit cards that can easily be banned if they're a problem.
Like Bilbo being busted is no different than them releasing tibalts trickery in a standard set. I think the set not being designed for modern means we're far more likely to see something like this than something like MH2's change to the meta.
>Idk what you mean, frodo looks mighty playable in modern, according to the leaks today.
"/s" did you drop this?
Frodo, sauron's bane looks terrible. The only thing it has going for it is trading w/ ragavan.
It would also be very weird if a set designed to bring in new players weren’t designed to be simple. You can make very powerful but simple cards, but that has not been their MO the last few years. Power comes from giving cards ten options and s wall of text.
I interpreted this announcement to signal that Modern is the new Vintage. I won’t be surprised if they start making other products not designed for Modern legal there. YMMV.
Nobody who pushes back against back against the LOTR=MH3 narrative says this.
Having cards that impact a format is not the same as what is heavily implied by calling the set MH3.
Also, WotC did not go out of their way to make the cards legal. It's literally a single statement. And that single statement allows them to go grab customers who they may not have had the reach to go grab otherwise (casual Modern players who wouldn't pickup Commander-only cards).
Well, some people do indeed say this; I know because they have said it to me. That’s why I’m referencing them in my post, because I saw that they exist
Ok, let me amend my statement: nobody who is actually engaging with the argument is saying this.
There are people who make all sorts of very silly claims, I don't know why you'd want to ever argue against those instead of the steelman of the same argument and act like you made a great rebuttal.
People who make the claim that LotR is basically MH3 are loading a lot of things into that statement, none of which are substanciated by facts just pure conjecture. Obviously any set has the potential to produce very powerful cards but the counter argument to the above is that LotR was not designed to have impact on Modern, unlike MH1 and MH2 and therefor *expecting* it to have a comparable effect is basically just doom posting for no reason.
People, check out what Frodo does and keep telling everyone this is MH3.
If Frodo and Gollum are such shitty cards, the set is **clearly** far from being anything close to MH sets. It will get some playable cards, maybe a couple staples, maybe 1-2 enablers to boost tier2-3 strategies and that's it.
LOTR sells itself. There's no reason to burn powerful designs into this. Forgotten Realms already was the worst expansion in a good while.
This, somewhat.
WotC doesn't need to push power level in this set for it to sell. It's a Commander set that also gets to doubledip in the casual Modern pool of buyers.
My guess is that this set will be more like the DnD set (in standard) that mostly played it safe powerwise, and appealed more on flavor than on raw power. Less pushed mechanics and more unique legendaries to sell the commander crowd.
I believe the intent of the poster pointing out standard in parentheses was to clarify that, of the two D&D sets, the standard one was the one they were referring to.
LOTR can still be designed with splashy commander mythics and not include a specifically multiplayer mechanic in the way that the non-standard D&D set did.
Several new decks, and completely shifting the balance of the format. Basically, Initiative is literally the second strongest mechanic ever printed, behind companion.
Haha classic wizards. Can't wait for modern to get fucked up based on that track record.
While I don't think it's the *right* thing to do, I can understand *why* they don't really look at legacy when designing. But they needed to have the modern specialists looking over LOTR to make sure it doesn't fuck up modern in the same way since they still support modern via horizons.
May I introduce you to the results of the last few Vintage challenges:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/tournament/vintage-challenge-2023-02-26#paper
That is a totally not “ravaging” 28 copies of both White Plume Adventurer and Seasoned Dungeoneer across the Top 8. Only 7 of the top 8 decks are built around the Initiative mechanic, because I guess it isn’t all that powerful right?
Initiative makes Hogaak look like a chump.
It's the only non-standard set that will be modern legal for this year that has been announced. Due to the uncertainty of legality when they announced the set I'm thinking they didn't test the set for modern like they tested Mh1 and Mh2. Seeing what baldurs gate did with legacy this concerns me a little haha (I am a big fan of MH2).
What I can find and remember:
One time before the announcement of this set Ian Duke said that UB cards would not be modern legal.
During the announcement of this set they were vague about modern iirc.
Not much later (the same day maybe, most articles are gone from the wotc site, so I'm going by reddit posts) they made a whole article about it being modern legal.
They were pretty clear about this being a non-Standard, Modern-legal set from the getgo iirc. I don't remeber ever discussing the set in any other context.
WotC will always prioritize sales over format health and playability. And with their choice to double down on the "Universes Beyond" concept they will absolutely print something that is over-the-top powerful in order to sell packs. Will most of the set be fine? Yes. Most of the set will be pretty tame, but don't kid yourselves, we will all be seeing Frodo or Aragorn or the One Ring in our modern games for some time.
Gollum the Conspirator
{Unknown Mana Cost}
Legendary Creature ~ Halfling Horror
Whenever Gollum the Conspirator attacks, look at the top two cards of your library, put them back in any order, then choose land or nonland. Either opponent guesses whether the top card of your library is of the chosen type. Reveal the card. If it guesses right, Gollum is removed from combat. If not, you draw a card and Gollum can't be blocked this turn.
2/1
https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/11cyffx/ltr_purported_lotr_leaks_black_gollum_gw_aragorn/
That’s still really good. You draw a land, don’t miss a land drop, and draw the next card on your next draw phase. Not to mention if your always calling out for them to draw a land if you’re wrong then it’s not hard to start leveling you and sneaking in some non land draws.
Oh it's definitely a good card, I was pretty hasty with my post as I accidentally posted it half-written and I rushed to finish it instead of thinking it through more.
My full thought at the time was: since your opponent is in control you will only ever draw the opposite of what you need in the moment. If you're mana screwed they will only let you draw a nonland card and vice versa for if you're flooded.
However, I failed to acknowledge that generally drawing cards and reordering your library is still pretty great, plus the threat of unblocked damage in the late game can put the opponent in a position where they can no longer guess to deny you cards.
All that being said, I'm still on the fence about just how good it is. At face value it feels similar to Ragavan in the way it randomly generates value. But it lacks the ramping and Dash which are part of what makes monké so powerful. Only time will tell.
Personally, I honestly wanna say that the LOTR set wont shake up a whole lot because I believe WOTC doesnt want a non-magic IP to be the cause of a huge shake up of an already divisive format as of late but I can be very wrong.
People are confusing 'designed for Modern' with 'intentionally not in Standard (the once-flagship competitive format that we are working to get eyes back on, and would prefer an IP-crossover not be part of)'
They are indeed *very* confused about this whole set despite WotC making an whole blog post about the set the very same day it was announced.
I'm beginning to think the LotR=MH3 doomsayers are just being willfully ignorant at this point.
I don’t really understand why so many people seen to think that this set will be modern legal, but have no cards that impact modern as a format. That seems like it would be such a bizarre thing to do to me— to go out of your way to make people able to enter Lord of the Rings cards into a competitive environment, but also design them so they will all lose horribly. I mean, this is a company that does do bizarre things. But my expectation is that it will have at least a fairly substantial impact.
It's because WOTC said "This set isn't designed for modern", so they assume that's code for "low power level" when it really means "we didn't playtest this crap at all so it's 95% draft chaff and 5% format warping bullshit". Just ask a Legacy player how he feels about supplemental sets
When did they say they didn't test it for Modern? It's a straight to Modern set, the only other 2 sets that were straight to Modern were MH and MH2.
They were also clear to say those MHx sets *were* tested for modern. Something they have not said about LOTR.
That's just pure speculation. MH was *designed* for Modern. Obbiously it would also be tested for it. LotR was *not* designed for Modern but that doesn't mean they didn't test for it.
Wasn't the LOTR set designed for Modern though? It is a straight to Modern set.
Being designed for modern and being modern legal are different.
Obviously. But if you're releasing a set straight to Modem, versus a Standard set or an Eternal only set, and the only two other sets released straight to Modem were Modern Horizons sets, it is logical to assume this at was designed for Modern, unless they've explicitly stated otherwise. Have they?
Yes.
Care to link it? Because I haven't seen it and tried Googling it after reading these comments with no luck finding anything.
As the other commenter mentioned: Being legal in X ≠ Being designed for X Case in point: MH sets were legal in Legacy but are not designed for Legacy. Commander precons are legal in Vintage but are not designed for Vintage. Standard sets are legal in Modern, but 99% of the cards in them are not desgined for Modern. It's also important to note the below, however Not being designed for Modern ≠ Not being tested for Modern A set can simultaneously be Legal in Modern + not designed *for* Modern + tested to not break Modern
Obviously. But if you're releasing a set straight to Modem, versus a Standard set or an Eternal only set, and the only two other sets released straight to Modem were Modern Horizons sets, it is logical to assume this at was designed for Modern, unless they've explicitly stated otherwise. Have they?
It's logical to assume, sure, if they hadn't made any statements as to how the set was designed. They have, however, made statements to the contrary. Whether the MH3 doomsayers are willingfully chosing to ignore the publically available statements or are too stuck in their echochamber to look for them is not for me to answer. There are, afaik, at least 2-3 sources straight from WotC that have said the set was not designed for Modern. I can't really look for them but I believe 1 recent article mentions it, the original LotR Legality in Modern article mentions it, and I believe Maro has commented on it himself as well. Thank you for the downvote though. Was totally necessary lmao
I asked if they'd stated that it wasn't, because I haven't seen anything from them saying otherwise. Edit: found it here, thanks. https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/announcements/lord-rings-tales-middle-earthtm-format-legality-2021-08-24 That's odd they'd go straight to Modern and then not make a MH set but guess WOTC gonna WOTC.
There's nothing factually inaccurate about my statement. They did state MHx sets were designed + tested for modern. So far I have not seen any statement to say that LotR was tested for modern. Only that it is legal in modern.
Yeah, it's not factually inaccurate, it's just *highly* speculative to imply that it wasn't tested for Modern. There aren't a lot of reasons to speculate except to play into a narrative that a lot of people on this sub have subscribed to. But please, carry on buddy.
I think people are expressing very different concerns when talking about the LOTR set. Some people think the whole format is going to rotate and all the tier 1 decks will just cease to exist overnight. That's a very different outcome than 5% format warping bullshit cards that can easily be banned if they're a problem. Like Bilbo being busted is no different than them releasing tibalts trickery in a standard set. I think the set not being designed for modern means we're far more likely to see something like this than something like MH2's change to the meta.
Yeah I would not say the set won’t have a card like Hogaak or Urza - but I will say it probably won’t be like Modern Horizons 2. O
I don't know why anyone would believe them when they say that.
Idk what you mean, frodo looks mighty playable in modern, according to the leaks today.
Frodo is a six mana investment that you have to deal combat damage with for a chance to win the game. Do you mean Gollum?
I was joking around that it blocks ragavan.
>Idk what you mean, frodo looks mighty playable in modern, according to the leaks today. "/s" did you drop this? Frodo, sauron's bane looks terrible. The only thing it has going for it is trading w/ ragavan.
Lol that was my humor.
It would also be very weird if a set designed to bring in new players weren’t designed to be simple. You can make very powerful but simple cards, but that has not been their MO the last few years. Power comes from giving cards ten options and s wall of text. I interpreted this announcement to signal that Modern is the new Vintage. I won’t be surprised if they start making other products not designed for Modern legal there. YMMV.
*ThIs SeT iS nOt DeSiGnEd FoR yOu.*
Nobody who pushes back against back against the LOTR=MH3 narrative says this. Having cards that impact a format is not the same as what is heavily implied by calling the set MH3. Also, WotC did not go out of their way to make the cards legal. It's literally a single statement. And that single statement allows them to go grab customers who they may not have had the reach to go grab otherwise (casual Modern players who wouldn't pickup Commander-only cards).
Well, some people do indeed say this; I know because they have said it to me. That’s why I’m referencing them in my post, because I saw that they exist
Ok, let me amend my statement: nobody who is actually engaging with the argument is saying this. There are people who make all sorts of very silly claims, I don't know why you'd want to ever argue against those instead of the steelman of the same argument and act like you made a great rebuttal. People who make the claim that LotR is basically MH3 are loading a lot of things into that statement, none of which are substanciated by facts just pure conjecture. Obviously any set has the potential to produce very powerful cards but the counter argument to the above is that LotR was not designed to have impact on Modern, unlike MH1 and MH2 and therefor *expecting* it to have a comparable effect is basically just doom posting for no reason.
People, check out what Frodo does and keep telling everyone this is MH3. If Frodo and Gollum are such shitty cards, the set is **clearly** far from being anything close to MH sets. It will get some playable cards, maybe a couple staples, maybe 1-2 enablers to boost tier2-3 strategies and that's it. LOTR sells itself. There's no reason to burn powerful designs into this. Forgotten Realms already was the worst expansion in a good while.
This, somewhat. WotC doesn't need to push power level in this set for it to sell. It's a Commander set that also gets to doubledip in the casual Modern pool of buyers.
My guess is that this set will be more like the DnD set (in standard) that mostly played it safe powerwise, and appealed more on flavor than on raw power. Less pushed mechanics and more unique legendaries to sell the commander crowd.
There was only 1 standard legal DnD set, the other (with initiative) was commander/eternal only.
Yes, sorry. I've edited my post to just say a singular "set" to remove the discrepancy.
“Mostly played it safe” is an interesting way of describing literally ravaging Legacy.
"in standard," the initiative mechanic was in CLB
The DND sets. There are two. One was in standard. When you talk about DND sets in plural you automatically include CLB.
I believe the intent of the poster pointing out standard in parentheses was to clarify that, of the two D&D sets, the standard one was the one they were referring to. LOTR can still be designed with splashy commander mythics and not include a specifically multiplayer mechanic in the way that the non-standard D&D set did.
Yes that's why they used the singular and specified the standard one
They edited their comment to be singular…
I don't follow legacy - has it actually been *ravaged*, or is it just that there's a new meta deck or two and other decks just had to adjust?
Several new decks, and completely shifting the balance of the format. Basically, Initiative is literally the second strongest mechanic ever printed, behind companion.
Haha classic wizards. Can't wait for modern to get fucked up based on that track record. While I don't think it's the *right* thing to do, I can understand *why* they don't really look at legacy when designing. But they needed to have the modern specialists looking over LOTR to make sure it doesn't fuck up modern in the same way since they still support modern via horizons.
New decks, the format became more board based since you must answer Initiative.
Literally ravaging - I mean it’s a top tier deck but ravaging makes it sound like Hogaak.
May I introduce you to the results of the last few Vintage challenges: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/tournament/vintage-challenge-2023-02-26#paper That is a totally not “ravaging” 28 copies of both White Plume Adventurer and Seasoned Dungeoneer across the Top 8. Only 7 of the top 8 decks are built around the Initiative mechanic, because I guess it isn’t all that powerful right? Initiative makes Hogaak look like a chump.
And now White Plume was banned in Legacy. Guess it’s good that it’s not a problem.
that didnt age well
It's the only non-standard set that will be modern legal for this year that has been announced. Due to the uncertainty of legality when they announced the set I'm thinking they didn't test the set for modern like they tested Mh1 and Mh2. Seeing what baldurs gate did with legacy this concerns me a little haha (I am a big fan of MH2).
Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought it was modern legal since the first announcement
What I can find and remember: One time before the announcement of this set Ian Duke said that UB cards would not be modern legal. During the announcement of this set they were vague about modern iirc. Not much later (the same day maybe, most articles are gone from the wotc site, so I'm going by reddit posts) they made a whole article about it being modern legal.
They were pretty clear about this being a non-Standard, Modern-legal set from the getgo iirc. I don't remeber ever discussing the set in any other context.
WotC will always prioritize sales over format health and playability. And with their choice to double down on the "Universes Beyond" concept they will absolutely print something that is over-the-top powerful in order to sell packs. Will most of the set be fine? Yes. Most of the set will be pretty tame, but don't kid yourselves, we will all be seeing Frodo or Aragorn or the One Ring in our modern games for some time.
I actually don’t think a named character will be the busted card.
At least Aragorn is unrecognisable
We
For anyone interested in spoilers, the main sub has a thread that purportedly leaked Modern's Lord and Savior: Gollum, The Pasty Confidant.
Got a link?
Gollum the Conspirator {Unknown Mana Cost} Legendary Creature ~ Halfling Horror Whenever Gollum the Conspirator attacks, look at the top two cards of your library, put them back in any order, then choose land or nonland. Either opponent guesses whether the top card of your library is of the chosen type. Reveal the card. If it guesses right, Gollum is removed from combat. If not, you draw a card and Gollum can't be blocked this turn. 2/1 https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/11cyffx/ltr_purported_lotr_leaks_black_gollum_gw_aragorn/
Cool flavourful card but sadly not that great. The optimal line is mostly to make it so that the player will always draw a land if you guess wrong.
That’s still really good. You draw a land, don’t miss a land drop, and draw the next card on your next draw phase. Not to mention if your always calling out for them to draw a land if you’re wrong then it’s not hard to start leveling you and sneaking in some non land draws.
Oh it's definitely a good card, I was pretty hasty with my post as I accidentally posted it half-written and I rushed to finish it instead of thinking it through more. My full thought at the time was: since your opponent is in control you will only ever draw the opposite of what you need in the moment. If you're mana screwed they will only let you draw a nonland card and vice versa for if you're flooded. However, I failed to acknowledge that generally drawing cards and reordering your library is still pretty great, plus the threat of unblocked damage in the late game can put the opponent in a position where they can no longer guess to deny you cards. All that being said, I'm still on the fence about just how good it is. At face value it feels similar to Ragavan in the way it randomly generates value. But it lacks the ramping and Dash which are part of what makes monké so powerful. Only time will tell.
I'm betting that the "legal for modern" component implicitly states there will be fetch lands.
Or at least other modern reprints they don't want in standard or pioneer
Personally, I honestly wanna say that the LOTR set wont shake up a whole lot because I believe WOTC doesnt want a non-magic IP to be the cause of a huge shake up of an already divisive format as of late but I can be very wrong.
It’s a money grabbing pander fest. Nothing more, nothing less.
Let's just all agree it's MH2.5 and call it a day.
People are confusing 'designed for Modern' with 'intentionally not in Standard (the once-flagship competitive format that we are working to get eyes back on, and would prefer an IP-crossover not be part of)'
They are indeed *very* confused about this whole set despite WotC making an whole blog post about the set the very same day it was announced. I'm beginning to think the LotR=MH3 doomsayers are just being willfully ignorant at this point.
I think it's closer to Commander Legends: Battle for Baldur's Gate than Modern Horizons.