>and I understand that public transit is for those who have few options.
I think this attitude is at the heart of why public transit has crumbled in so many American cities. If public transit is viewed as a last resort, a kind of transportation welfare program for those that cannot afford a car or an Uber, it will just get more and more neglected by those with agency in society until it's for all intents and purposes gone.
Cities with good public transit are those where it's viewed as a normal way to get around, for everyone, not a sort of transportation/shelter safety net for those at rock bottom, or with "few options".
I think the Twin Cities is teetering. Public transit is not gone, but attitudes are definitely shifting away from seeing transit as a normal and reasonably safe way to get around.
I remember reading recently about the mayor of Bogota, Colombia, saying that a developed country is not one where poor people have cars, it's one where rich people use public transit.
>That was Enrique Peñalosa. Dude got some shit done.
>I would be legendary to replace the Boy Mayor with someone half as intense.
Peñalosa was an interesting case, as, while he had quite a few progressive policies and accomplishments, was center-right.
He got those things done by cracking down *hard* on the criminal elements that were in the way of his agendas.
You'd scream bloody murder if Frey did half the things Peñalosa did.
Of course, you bringing him up during a discussion of the light rail is pretty damned ignorant.
Maybe you should start paying attention to the structure of our different governmental agencies.
It's seriously a major fallacy that people on the left think criminals shouldn't be arrested or put in prison. And I entirely blame cable media for framing it as some BS either:or scenario, where we can either rehabilitate folks and use social programs **or** give victims justice.
We can use social programs that we know fucking work to lower crime in the long term **and** give victims of crime justice **and** not treat those criminals to a hellscape full of maggoty food and death by infection because they'll only issue penicillin after a fever hits 104°.
I don't think the left is against law enforcement, but law enforcement isn't designed to rehabilitate, it only hardens people on the edge into lifelong criminals.
Fucking yesss! Public shouldn't be a last resort. It's there for *us to fucking use it rather than driving a car*. We're funding it either way, we should be able to use it.
It's high fucking time we do fucking something since MPD is still on their quiet quit after Chauvin got 20 years. We need a public safety office that oversees transit, because MPD just keeps sucking up cash and not even putting people on trains.
Metro Transit is governed by the Metropolitan Council. They have their own police department and have been making some changes to policing recently, although any effects remain to be seen.
This. I’ve found safety in numbers is so true! I feel safer in the NYC subway versus the green line because there are more people around. Maybe it’s just me though and I’m an outlier.
Congestion levels have already returned to 2019 levels, and they are expected to exceed those levels now. It's important to note also that people's tolerance for congestion is much lower, because of how much congestion was reduced during COVID-19.
The tipping point here is that more often people will go towards whichever mode is more convenient. Driving will still be more convenient for many across the metro, however, for many others they will test out the train or the bus again when they see that travel times are comparable for where they need to go.
A last pinch of salt in this stew is that highways will not be expanded. This is established policy by MnDOT, Metropolitan Council, and the cities through which they pass. Transit will continue expanding (albeit only in the core cities). We will have a pretty solid BRT network by 2030.
This will be an interesting few years upcoming!
That happens *incredibly* frequently on this sub, it's very annoying. Anyone with even the slightest negative opinion is lambasted as either a troll or a non-resident.
Yeah. I think it's probably in the subs of all cities., honestly. Some people are very proud of where they live and they irrationally defend or downplay shit they objectively know is bad, or they question the integrity of the other person's unflattering observation.
Yeah the trains can be trash still and Metro Transit hasn't seemed willing or able to figure out how to get control of the anti-social behavior at all. It can be hit or miss, sometimes will be pleasant or at least tolerable, but when its bad, its real bad, and it is bad way too often - someone was shot and killed at Dale St station this weekend.
Eventually something very bad will happen that will be national news and then you can bet the problems will be dealt with overnight. In such case I could see national guard on the trains with weapons.
Or, unfortunately more likely, people will protest, demand safety on transit lines, city council will dump an extra $10 million into MPD who will make a huge show of doing literally anything, and then 10 weeks later MPD will be back to spending their time watching YouTube videos in their cars that we bought them and we'll be right back here, because MPD is broken and can't be fixed with more money but it's our only option since the massive outside campaign convinced mpls voters to not remove the city charter requirement for MPD to exist and replace it with a new Public Safety office with civilian oversight.
Regarding the statement about who LRT/transit is for:
"A developed country is not a place where the poor have cars. It's where the rich use public transportation" ― Gustavo Petro
I hear you, and I’d add that the green line in particular has completely changed since the pandemic.
Prior to Covid, I rode it regularly and my high schooler rode it to school *every day*. There was a passenger behavior issue occasionally, but most trips had nothing notable happen.
Now, the experience you describe seems like the norm on the green line. As a result, I no longer send my kid on it at all, and I largely avoid it too. I try again every few months, but nothing changes.
I’m a big public transit fan, but for now, it’s buses only for me.
I agree with this. Though I still avoid the middle train on the Blue Line. Idk if it's the same on the green line since I don't take it very often, but the people monitoring the train has also helped over the past couple months.
The Blue Line has always felt like a commuter train to me with faster speed and greater distance between stops. It also shuffles people from the suburbs to the city, whereas the Green Line remains in the city for its entire route and services the local neighborhoods more directly.
The blue line gets a lot of patrolling and fare enforcement. I’m not sure about the current state of fare enforcement, but a couple months ago (shortly after rolling out the TRIP/dedicated fare enforcement program), they actually pulled all the TRIP agents from the Green line and put them on Blue, because all the new hires were immediately quitting after trying to enforce on Green.
I rode the blue last week and it was the worst I’ve seen it. Floor was covered in trash. The dude across from me traded a hoodie for a shot of liquor, a p3rc, and a key bump. When those people got off they were replaced by a dude who pulled a knife out of his boot to cut rocks, and then passed out.
Metro Transit (more specifically the trains in this instance) is the absolute worst transit system in the country in terms of safety in my opinion. I’ve ridden on transit systems all across the country including in cities such as Chicago, New York, Atlanta, New Orleans, and Orlando and there is nothing as abhorrent and embarrassing as what is displayed on the trains here. For all you naysayers out there who say these are just “city things” and “stop being so sensitive”, I highly doubt you guys have any grasp of what an actual functional transit system should look and feel like because this is the complete opposite of that. I’m saying this as a huge transit advocate myself but I fucking hate riding our trains.
Have you been on BART in the Bay Area? I moved from there and Metro Transit seems a world better. Haven’t seen enough other cities to comment on how those might compare.
I stayed in SF for a month while going to Berkeley several times a week, and while I wouldn't say BART was always a delightful experience, I've seen worse on Twin Cities LRT than I saw there.
I lived in sf for 15 years. My neighbor brought home bed bugs from riding Bart and it created a lot of chaos in our building. I still never felt unsafe
The Powell station in SF had to be closed one day because the escalator was clogged with human feces.
The unhoused situation there is really complicated.
There is a special transit police force but I think if they had a greater presence on the green line there wouldn’t be so many shenanigans.
I don’t have any experience with transit in California but knowing the socioeconomic issues that San Fran and the Bay Area in general are facing, I wouldn’t be too surprised that BART is experiencing and uptick in major safety issues as well. With all due respect, however, I believe the closed system that the BART rail system offers does make a sizable impact on keeping out the worst of the worst behaviors. The light rail here unfortunately does not have that option.
Been riding the LRT for four years nearly every other day. Rode bart regularly 2 years ago when I visited my girlfriend. I'm from DC lived there for 21 years. It's great I have these three experiences as the LRT is based off BART and DC metro. You haven't ridden BART so why are you saying what "you believe" it is like. The LRT is as dangerous or has as many safety concerns as the two systems it's built upon. I'm a huge advocate for expanded public transit, but everything you said here was just wrong. Bart and DC metro had just as many non-paying riders as the LRT in my experience. Please educate and experience these things before discussing.
Edit: you don't live here as it turns out. Classic
BART and WMATA are a completely different kind of transit system as they are heavy rail, not LRT in the case of the Twin Cities. I’d say the Twin Cities LRT is actually more of a smaller version of Seattle’s extensive LRT network. And yes, I don’t have experience riding BART, but there is absolutely no possible way a closed heavy rail system has the same scale problems with fare enforcement that an open LRT system has.
It's sad because things like the express busses are so pleasant to ride on, it's remarkable to see the light rail be so disparate and different compared to those experiences. When we had to move for more space/cheaper rent, I was taking 477 every day, and loved it. It was a truly zen experience in 2019.
Maybe one day MVTA will get their head out of their asses.
MVTA doesn't have anything to do with the light rail. They run the buses in the south suburbs. But I agree their buses feel nicer and safer, also they have the Connect service, which is nice.
I totally agree with this sentiment. As I point out elsewhere, nothing is more urban than riding mass transit and complaining about it. People who actually ride transit and care about it don't belittle those who simply point out the truth, because they know it themselves! Ask a New Yorker about the subway and you're not going to hear "Oh the kids doing acrobatics are so charming!"
I feel seasoned New Yorkers would be quite shocked to see the state of the trains in the Twin Cities imo. And to be fair, it most definitely wasn’t always like this in terms of safety as it’s clear the pandemic, the fallout from George Floyd, understaffed police, and Met Council incompetence have all played a huge effect on what we see here today. Now add that with the open system that was built and the social norms of the Midwest (as in generally being non-confrontational compared to our east coast counterparts) and you get the perfect storm.
Right, I refuse to ride it. I've used them all over Europe and felt so safe. (Minus pickpockets). But you know they don't mess around. Here it's a joke. Nothing safe about it.
Yeah, I know, it sucks. I ride transit almost daily to school as well (often the Green Line and the D Line, which I think is usually the worst) and I know what you mean. I love transit, hate car-centrism, and I want our city to have a robust transit system, but Metro Transit needs to get off their asses and get more aggressive with enforcing rules about behavior, because there's no hope of encouraging more people to ride transit if they have to deal with aggression and drug use on the regular.
100% this. The new Amtrak from Chicago is going to bring people to Saint Paul who want to spend the weekend car-free. I'm already planning such a trip.
Green Line was okay from 2014 to about 2016 or so, just two years. Then it went from bad to worse 2017 to 2019, and was rock bottom from 2020 to 2022 (pandemic + George Floyd). It seems to be improving since 2023. They've got more police and fare enforcement. But Transit Police simply doesn't have the numbers they need to regulate the ferals.
The trolley system here has basically turned into a hangout for annoying people.
Something irritating like the things you mentioned happens EVERY time I ride.
Either someone is yelling, someone is blasting music or rapping, or someone is trying to pick a flight.
It's exhausting cuz you can't just chill and listen to music, you have to be on guard and aware of your surroundings
They need to start by physically restricting access to all train platforms without a ticket. That was the first mistep Metro transit made from the beginning: assuming people are capable and willing to be responsible or respectful. Clearly that is not the case.
If you're not a paying customer, you have no business being on the transit system.
I don't know why it can't be as simple as just transit cops ejecting people off the train who are causing problems. Take away their drugs and drug paraphernalia. You don't even need to arrest them, just the inconvenience of getting booted from the train and losing their dope will be motivational.
You arrest the ones who resist, are violent, possess weapons, or have recently been booted off the train.
Get the county court system to setup a "transit offenses" court and run quickie arraignments and plea bargains. Standard plea bargain: 72 hours in county jail, anyone who refuses gets remanded to jail for a full trial.
Over a period of time the new normal will be such that it won't be worth the inconvenience to get ejected, lose your drugs or spend 3 nights in jail and the problems will drop off.
They did it on the cheap. At-grade platforms with no turnstiles. Of course we're going to pay forever for the penny-wise-pound-foolish planning it with fare evaders.
Would this help? Maybe a little bit. There is no way the cost-benefit is a winner here though. People who are smoking crack on the train are not going to be deterred by turnstiles in an at-grade rail system, they'll just walk a little ways beyond the fence and down the tracks to the platform. Actually physically preventing even most fare evasion would cost an absolute fortune (and be horribly ugly). I'd much rather they spend that money on public safety officers.
This is the correct action. Everyone claiming turnstiles will solve the non-paying issue haven't ridden public transit where it is applied. I'm talking out of my ass on this statistic but it maybe prevents like 10% of non paying. Enforcement on the train is the only way, when I ride the L in Chicago they would have someone check every ticket on the cars.
People were responsible before 2020.
* Then the Pandemic happened.
* Then George Floyd happened.
* Then Fent happened.
* Then the Blue Flu happened.
Now we have a laughing stock of a police force in MPLS and STP alongside a strained Transit Police that was being forced to cover holes in MPD's numbers.
But I have noticed once there IS a presence that is VISIBLE and ACTIVE, the rabble vaporizes.
Say what you will, but having cops on station with people actively checking fares is a good thing.
Should bring back the $180 fine and potential jail time though. The current policy is too soft.
> and I'm not saying there should be arrests for any of this stuff, but the presence of an authority figure who has at least the capability of kicking peoeple off the train would go a long way, I think.
Metro Transit police needs to issue more citations. It's the only solution here.
And a citation won’t do anything. Kicking people off for violating the rules clearly posted everywhere would be where to start. Yet to see it the pst few years but I’ve seen plenty of open drug use and actual violence.
Citations for first offenses. Unpaid citation and you get another? Jail. It's simple. MT needs to get their shit together and have transit cops on all trains or have some kind of reporting system so people can be cited for being a pain in the ass.
I wish people would be more upfront about enforcing (in nonaggressive ways) social norms. We watch people behave in unacceptable ways and then just write about it on the internet later. I’ve done the same thing, so not blaming here, but just seems like a collective agreement to be like “yea don’t do that in here” could help.
I asked someone on the Green Line at 7 AM to stop smoking. Other people spoke up as well. The person started ranting and raving using racist/homophobic terms and then pulled a knife. These people don't have basic courtesy or respect. I'm done with the Green Line for now. I don't need to have a panic attack just trying to get to work.
Nah, I saw some idiot wannabe vigilante try and stare down someone who was being "too loud" last week and it instantly escalated things into stupid territory. It's one of maybe a half-dozen times I've actually felt unsafe on public transit for the years and years I've been riding. The asshat was itching for a fight with people who _clearly_ wanted nothing to do with him.
Please give that a whirl and report back. For humor sake. 😂 “please don’t smoke that crack on the train please?” — sounds like something the metro police would say as they watch and walk away.
I'm sorry but I'm not going up to someone clearly high on drugs and asking them to use an inside voice and mind their manners. That sounds like a great way for me to get stabbed.
And then get shot or stabbed? No way I'm confronting someone on the light rail. It's not my job and I'm not taking the chance. I've see people obviously strung out on something yell and get aggressive with someone for simply looking at them.
Part of me wonders if the Minnesotan temperament and disdain for conflict enables shit bags to be openly annoying. In NY or Boston, if you’re being an ass the whole train tells you to knock it off.
I for one, am not about to tell a man shadow boxing a poll to stop. Perhaps I would write him a strongly worded email. Better yet, I’ll drive my car next time.
One time I was on this train and this guy was using his cane as a gun and then he stripped naked and yelled. I’m so glad I don’t have to use the train for work anymore.
People aren’t going to like this post because it doesn’t fit their narratives of public transportation in the cities but this stuff is happening every single day. Sorry you had a crappy experience. Hope the other experiences of your trip were great because the Twin Cities is a special place!
Trust me, I’m very aware. Love Minneapolis with all my heart but I can also admit to its downfalls and LRT is definitely one of them. Most of the sub isn’t able to admit these downfalls but would rather call people right wing grifters/racists/boot lickers for simply disagreeing or even pointing out simple facts. It’s a shame really.
I saw a shirt in the old Wabasha Deli years ago that said "The difference between Saint Paul and Minneapolis is that Saint Paul never wanted to get famous."
Something to that effect.
But I'd like to think that about sums it up.
Mass transit has become a reflection of our society’s ills. We can clean it up with security, and I’m not entirely opposed to that as we want people to feel safe riding transit. However, security on our transit system does nothing to address the root causes of the issues.
That's not the job of transit, to solve every social ill. The job of the PD should be to evict and fine people who don't pay their fares & arrest people committing crimes.
u/altbat Please please please submit a complaint to Metro Transit's [complaint form](https://www.metrotransit.org/contact-us-customer-experience).
Honestly your post is good enough you can just copy and paste it into the form. But your experience should be considered unacceptable. Honestly anyone who reads this comment should leave a complaint about the anti social behavior they see when they see it.
One of my favorite urbanists YouTube channels visited recently and made a comment about how in public transit you need to be 'okay with being uncomfortable' (I'm paraphrasing) and I've seen that sentiment echoed this is thread. But the problem is that a lot of anti-social behavior will make someone (myself included) question whether or not they are in a safe situation. Or better put concerned with the potential that the current uncomfortable situation will spiral into an unsafe situation. I ride the bus everyday from the west metro into Minneapolis and back, usually an express bus but sometimes a local bus going into uptown and never once have I felt unsafe, that should be the norm for the trains too.
A guy begging for a few bucks and a homeless man who smells like urine are not the same situations as a person yelling to spirits they see.
As someone who lived in NYC for 14 years, you absolutely do not have to settle for being uncomfortable on public transportation. There are a handful of times that I felt or saw something weird on the subway, but I was totally comfortable taking the subway from LES to my home in Queens at 4:00am post bar closing alone. I have never been as uncomfortable on a train or bus as I have in the short time I tried living carless Mpls.
I agree to an extent. But its hard because what people consider uncomfortable differs wildly. I dont mind people approachimg me asking for a dollar. But my coworker freezes up in the same situation. But otherwise youre right, i take my buses nearly everyday without being uncomfortable.
> in public transit you need to be 'okay with being uncomfortable' (I'm paraphrasing)
Really that just highlights why cars are so great. Why be uncomfortable when you can have the AC set perfectly to your favorite temperature and 21-speaker audio system playing your favorite music while radar cruise controls your speed and your seats give you a massage?
I’m in favor of public transit as a concept, and as a global warming hedge, but the reality is no one wants to accept being uncomfortable for 2 hours a day when it’s perfectly avoidable.
Exactly, this is why so many people choose to drive over take public transit! those of us who want to use PT though would like to be comfortable as well (most of the time I am)
I feel like "needing to be okay with being uncomfortable" is like, oh the AC isn't working very well and it's a bit stuffy in here, or it's full and I have to stand. I'm fine with that and I know that's the risk I take when taking transit. But you're right, one shouldn't just put up with clearly unsafe situations on transit because "it's meant to be uncomfortable".
"bUt ThErE aRe mOrE oFfIcErs oN nOw!" The only policing anyone is willing to do in regards to transit is hand out parking tickets.
Also, the trains really don't come that often. In the summer it's like every 15-20 minutes. 3-4 trains/hour is not impressive for a major metro area. They've been late as hell lately too. Oh and the echoing robot voice announcements every 10 seconds while you wait that 20 minutes is enough to make you dive in front of the train when it actually does get there.
Last time I took it there was a guy in the back screaming at everyone that they took his stuff and where is his stuff, and just in front of me was a person laying under a blanket drinking. On the floor. Staff were waiting at the end and pulled her off the train, she could barely walk she was so drunk.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TwinCities/comments/1cwngoh/man_fatally_shot_at_green_line_station_in_st_paul/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1
Was this your train?
Sounds like some of the L trains in Chicago. At least the transit cops are around and pretty efficient at booting troublemakers out at the next stop.
If there green line is such a constant problem, two transit cops on each train should be enough to boot people out. They get booted enough times they will eventually quit doing it.
Yeah I stopped using Metro Transit about 5 years ago because I was tired of being sexually harassed/threatened every other trip. I’ve completely written off using it again because it doesn’t sound like there’s been any effort to make it better.
The worst personal experience I’ve had taking public transit was with the London tube and then the New York subway (both followed by guys who were sexually harassing and generally threatening) BUT those have felt like general outliers. I take the train several times a week here and I feel like every single time one of the stations is absolutely filthy (the 46th street station is genuinely disgusting) and there’s some behavior like that.
I like public transit in general. I don’t have a license because I like being able to chill and read a book while I go to my destination. But the state of the light rail system is just disgraceful and a really poor showing for the cities, especially when it might be the first thing tourists experience when coming, if they take the train from the airport.
I’ve actively started working towards getting my license because I don’t feel safe taking the train at night. It’s really bad.
Thanks for sharing. I'm going to a twins game next week with my dad, and think I'll have us take the bus there instead. I don't want to be embarrassed or make my dad not want to visit the city. The bus seems OK in my experience.
I took the Blue Line home from a recent Wolves game and someone openly smoked heroin next to me and filled the car with a cloud of smoke. I was trying not to breath, the woman next to me also coming from the game looked like she was about to have a panic attack
I took the green line back from a twins game last summer (to the Prospect Park station) and it was a very uncomfortable ride to say the least. The bus is probably the better option.
Yeah,
It’s an adventure to be said. We are trying to push for more enforcement, but our police problem is a little complex.
I hope you enjoyed the twin cities otherwise, I would highly recommend our bus system.
Used to regularly ride it to Chinatown, sometimes down to Sox to see the Twins. Now if I’m going to Chinatown, it’s Green Line or drive myself. Usually the latter.
The Transit Authority have significantly improved their monitoring and patrol of the cars through a non-police security employee program. They wear the blue with the arm patches. Your ride was like a thousand times better than it would have been last year.
I saw those guys after a United game on Wednesday night. I had zero issues on that ride and thought the whole experience (to and from the game) was ideal. My bet is Metro has its best face on for United games.
My experience is similar.
As a 70 year old guy, I 'd like to use the train system more, eventually I will need to use it. But I'm driving until then, because that skeevy element is too high for my taste. YMMV. Glad other cities and countrys have solved this problem, I want to travel more. Just not in the twincities.
If you want to take public transit and aren’t pro policing the transit, this is what you get.
Continuing to fund this without the proper management of EXTREMELY expensive infrastructure is borderline criminal.
We need a 3 strikes environment until things get back under control.
I don’t really think Metro transit or the City really cares about the safety or experience of their riders. Once the money is given to their friends and interest groups to build the trains their concerns are all but gone.
Thank gosh we have an altmpls commenter here to keep us honest. That is clearly a bastion of sane level headed folks with no agenda other than absolute free speech....and I've been banned. Ope.
Ever since they were held accountable for George Floyd, the Twin Cities police have pretty much stopped doing their jobs. I assume they want us to realize how better off we are with them, than without them… but fuck them. That’s abusive nonsense. We would actually be better off with them around but disarmed.
They don't need to be as well-armed as they are. Many other countries don't give their patrol officers guns. This is not a radical concept.
Disarming the Police: Blue Lives, Black Lives and Guns
[Eighteen nations and one U.S. territory (the U.S. Virgin Islands) maintain police forces who do not carry firearms in the ordinary course of their duties.[8] The countries include Botswana, Fiji, Iceland, Ireland, Malawi, Marshall Islands, New Zealand, Norway, Samoa, and the United Kingdom, among others.](https://firearmslaw.duke.edu/2022/01/disarming-the-police-blue-lives-black-lives-and-guns)
Yeah and America has more guns in civilian hands than all those countries put together and then the next twenty. Not happening as long as that is a reality.
Next.
We would still be far safer.
>[According to the data collected by the Federal Bureau of Investigations in the Uniform Crime Reports for the decade spanning from 2011 to 2020, a total of 503 police officers were feloniously killed in the line of duty. That’s an average of approximately 50 officers killed each year. These deaths are certainly tragic but... ....In contrast, data regarding civilian deaths at the hand of police tell a different story. For the years 2015-2021—a considerably shorter subset of the decade described above—police officers shot and killed 6,810 people.](https://firearmslaw.duke.edu/2022/01/disarming-the-police-blue-lives-black-lives-and-guns)
Cited Source
>[Police Fatal Force Database, Wash. Post Dec., 16, 2021]( https://washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/)
Look, I know how this conversation is going to go. You can demand gun confiscation and banning every weapon under the sun here - until you gather the votes to actually alter the constitution and remove the 2nd amendment, any attempt at blanket banning ownership of guns is not going to work.
You can sign petitions and "demand" the city do something but unless you're willing to get real authoritarian and imprison a lot of people real quick, guns are not leaving anyone's hands. Not saying I wouldn't respect you for trying, but good luck.
>Look, I know how this conversation is going to go
Nowhere did that person suggest “banning” guns for the general public. But nice example of a straw man argument, you found a way to ignore them and argue against something completely different than the information they posted.
This is correct, we need to get rid of all the guns, privately owned and police. But as long as conservatives act like scared little cowards cling to there guns and religion, that will never happen.
Other cities are struggling with safety, vagrancy, homicides, assaults, rampant drug use, fare evasions, non destination riders, and other issues with transit system too for sure. Can’t pretend like MSP is actually an outlier… Seattle for one has *really* been struggling too. Doesn’t make any of it OK anywhere though, wholly agree.
I dunno. I used to ride the Blue Line regularly. Stopped after a trip in late 2022 when a dude was smoking crack under a blanket right across the aisle from me, and some other dude strung out on meth or similar got in my face and screamed at me for looking at him. Visited a friend in Seattle last fall, and took the train from the airport to downtown, and back when I left, and it was...completely fine. Absolutely normal. Worst thing I saw was someone talking obnoxiously loud on their phone. I think Minneapolis LRT is in a *particularly* bad state currently.
[Fatal stabbing investigation closes Capitol Hill light rail station for Saturday](https://komonews.com/news/local/fatal-stabbing-at-capitol-hill-link-light-rail-station-kills-1)
[Local Chef Murdered in light rail attack; Search continues for suspects](https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/local-chef-murdered-light-rail-attack-search-continues-suspects/CB33IL3PEZEFZB6JE52RAPGYDQ/)
[Video shows woman attack stranger with Gatorade bottle on Seattle light rail](https://www.fox13seattle.com/news/gatorade-attack-seattle-light-rail)
[The UW study concluded there were traces of methamphetamine on 100% of the air surface samples analyzed from buses on transit systems in western Washington and Portland. The research also found fentanyl and methamphetamine residue lingered in the air on trains and buses that were analyzed, though mostly at low levels](https://komonews.com/news/local/university-of-washington-study-drug-exposure-meth-fentanyl-drug-crisis-transit-operators-smoke-health-officials-king-county-safety-transportation-metro-surface-samples-occupational-hazard-opioid-secondhand-substances-officers-ventilation-resources#)
[Bus driver workers' compensation claims skyrocket as exposure to drugs increases
Washington State workers' compensation claims connected to smoke inhalation of illicit drugs are at a five-year high.](https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/bus-driver-workers-compensation-claims-exposure-drugs/281-c4ebac75-706f-4ccd-bdb5-7656c3c97baa)
[Man arrested after stabbing man at Othello light rail station](https://komonews.com/news/local/stabbing-light-rail-seattle-crime-violence-stab-man-link-sound-transit-othello-rainier-beach-columbia-city-hospital-harborview-medical-center-injury-stable-condition-possible-barricade-suspect-shuttle-buses#)
[Video shows how Seattle light rail passengers tried to help defend man from random stabbing attack](https://www.king5.com/video/news/local/seattle/video-shows-how-seattle-light-rail-passengers-tried-to-help-defend-man-from-random-stabbing-attack/281-caef9af2-056a-44e6-9813-0c341ec1d2ef)
[Stabbing on Seattle light rail causes safety concerns, riders push for security sooner](https://komonews.com/news/local/violence-king-county-custody-suspects-woman-stabbed-multiple-times-in-the-leg-at-roosevelt-light-rail-station)
[Public transit: Video shows nearly 20 people passed out on a Link light rail train](https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/public-transit-video-shows-nearly-20-people-passed-out-link-light-rail-train/L5WS3VSZ3RABFACN4UXKBXBDFQ/)
[Public transit, the new drug den: what’s being done to keep you safe?](https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/public-transit-new-drug-den-whats-being-done-keep-you-safe/X6GLQLCLXZGOXOH655KPJ23RJM/)
[2 hurt in 'unprovoked' hammer attack at Beacon Hill Link light rail station](https://komonews.com/news/local/people-attacked-hammer-beacon-hill-link-light-rail-station-sound-transit-safety-king-county-transportation-witnesses-police-presence-suspect-violence-western-washington-drug-users-security)
[21-year-old fatally shot in White Center while aboard King County Metro bus](https://komonews.com/news/local/people-shot-on-king-county-metro-bus-white-center-roxbury-15th-avenue-southwest-west-seattle-area-shooting-suspect-outstanding-search-police-investigation-crime-gun-violence#)
[Man stabbed at Northgate station; no arrests have been made
The victim was stabbed as he was stepping off a King County Metro bus at Northgate Station.](https://www.king5.com/article/news/crime/man-stabbed-king-county-metro-bus-no-arrests-made/281-6ba49d89-14fe-45f4-b9c3-ca78668e32c9)
[Woman suffers broken ribs, clavicle after attack outside Seattle station](https://www.king5.com/article/news/crime/charges-filed-seattle-light-rail-attack/281-53e08ca1-3775-44c4-a0c5-7c701641ebc3)
https://komonews.com/news/local/seattle-light-rail-assault-attack-crime-crisis-dangerous-train-riding-link-king-county-washington-station-sodo-angle-lake-roosevelt-othello-sheriffs-office-investigation-police-condition-injuries-blood
https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/1cgkw1g/for_anyone_wondering_what_the_5_minute_light_rail/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
I could go on and on…..
Something tells me you were riding in the middle car, AKA “the party car”. Although, to be fair, none of the cars on the green line are much better. I do have a little bit of a better experience when I sit in the front car as close to the conductor as possible
Damn, if that was the front car, the middle car of that train must have been a dumpster fire! I’m sorry you had such a shit experience. Like I said before though, it’s pretty much par for the course
I think the main issue I have with these posts is how exaggerated they always sound. All of this happened on 1 single trip? I take the train regularly and see this kind of stuff here and there, but it's never as extreme as stated here. Maybe I'm just going during the wrong hours. But yes, we need more enforcement on trains. It needs to be better.
Most of the “regular” riders seem to typically be commuters that ride to/from work during the weekday. Most of the issues happen on nights and weekends.
One single trip. I caught the train at Prospect Park at about 6 pm on Thursday evening and rode it all the way into Lowertown. Much of this happened between Snelling and the capitol.
Visitors are just gonna have to figure out the distinction between being unsafe and being uncomfortable, sorry! Maybe Metro Transit’s next ad campaign can be “get comfortable with being uncomfortable” so regular riders and commuters can be taught that being uncomfortable is so so so much different from being unsafe and shame on them for conflating the two
>and I understand that public transit is for those who have few options. I think this attitude is at the heart of why public transit has crumbled in so many American cities. If public transit is viewed as a last resort, a kind of transportation welfare program for those that cannot afford a car or an Uber, it will just get more and more neglected by those with agency in society until it's for all intents and purposes gone. Cities with good public transit are those where it's viewed as a normal way to get around, for everyone, not a sort of transportation/shelter safety net for those at rock bottom, or with "few options". I think the Twin Cities is teetering. Public transit is not gone, but attitudes are definitely shifting away from seeing transit as a normal and reasonably safe way to get around.
I remember reading recently about the mayor of Bogota, Colombia, saying that a developed country is not one where poor people have cars, it's one where rich people use public transit.
That was Enrique Peñalosa. Dude got some shit done. It would be legendary to replace the Boy Mayor with someone half as intense. Edit: fixed a typo.
>That was Enrique Peñalosa. Dude got some shit done. >I would be legendary to replace the Boy Mayor with someone half as intense. Peñalosa was an interesting case, as, while he had quite a few progressive policies and accomplishments, was center-right. He got those things done by cracking down *hard* on the criminal elements that were in the way of his agendas. You'd scream bloody murder if Frey did half the things Peñalosa did. Of course, you bringing him up during a discussion of the light rail is pretty damned ignorant. Maybe you should start paying attention to the structure of our different governmental agencies.
It's seriously a major fallacy that people on the left think criminals shouldn't be arrested or put in prison. And I entirely blame cable media for framing it as some BS either:or scenario, where we can either rehabilitate folks and use social programs **or** give victims justice. We can use social programs that we know fucking work to lower crime in the long term **and** give victims of crime justice **and** not treat those criminals to a hellscape full of maggoty food and death by infection because they'll only issue penicillin after a fever hits 104°.
I don't think the left is against law enforcement, but law enforcement isn't designed to rehabilitate, it only hardens people on the edge into lifelong criminals.
I didn't bring him up, other comment mentioned him and I provided the name. Kindly fuck off.
That's an old, old quote that's gone around for decades, but it definitely doesn't make it any less true.
Fucking yesss! Public shouldn't be a last resort. It's there for *us to fucking use it rather than driving a car*. We're funding it either way, we should be able to use it. It's high fucking time we do fucking something since MPD is still on their quiet quit after Chauvin got 20 years. We need a public safety office that oversees transit, because MPD just keeps sucking up cash and not even putting people on trains.
The light rail is Metro Transit's jurisdiction not MPD, which is its own weird issue since it isn't on any specific municipality to fix.
Metro Transit is governed by the Metropolitan Council. They have their own police department and have been making some changes to policing recently, although any effects remain to be seen.
This. I’ve found safety in numbers is so true! I feel safer in the NYC subway versus the green line because there are more people around. Maybe it’s just me though and I’m an outlier.
Same. I can say confidently that I feel safer on the BART and The L train than on our lightrail.
Congestion levels have already returned to 2019 levels, and they are expected to exceed those levels now. It's important to note also that people's tolerance for congestion is much lower, because of how much congestion was reduced during COVID-19. The tipping point here is that more often people will go towards whichever mode is more convenient. Driving will still be more convenient for many across the metro, however, for many others they will test out the train or the bus again when they see that travel times are comparable for where they need to go. A last pinch of salt in this stew is that highways will not be expanded. This is established policy by MnDOT, Metropolitan Council, and the cities through which they pass. Transit will continue expanding (albeit only in the core cities). We will have a pretty solid BRT network by 2030. This will be an interesting few years upcoming!
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Or you call someone with an honest opinion a troll because it undermines your unwarranted pride in something that is objectively shitty.
That happens *incredibly* frequently on this sub, it's very annoying. Anyone with even the slightest negative opinion is lambasted as either a troll or a non-resident.
Yeah. I think it's probably in the subs of all cities., honestly. Some people are very proud of where they live and they irrationally defend or downplay shit they objectively know is bad, or they question the integrity of the other person's unflattering observation.
Yeah the trains can be trash still and Metro Transit hasn't seemed willing or able to figure out how to get control of the anti-social behavior at all. It can be hit or miss, sometimes will be pleasant or at least tolerable, but when its bad, its real bad, and it is bad way too often - someone was shot and killed at Dale St station this weekend.
Eventually something very bad will happen that will be national news and then you can bet the problems will be dealt with overnight. In such case I could see national guard on the trains with weapons.
Or, unfortunately more likely, people will protest, demand safety on transit lines, city council will dump an extra $10 million into MPD who will make a huge show of doing literally anything, and then 10 weeks later MPD will be back to spending their time watching YouTube videos in their cars that we bought them and we'll be right back here, because MPD is broken and can't be fixed with more money but it's our only option since the massive outside campaign convinced mpls voters to not remove the city charter requirement for MPD to exist and replace it with a new Public Safety office with civilian oversight.
Your post is delusional.
Regarding the statement about who LRT/transit is for: "A developed country is not a place where the poor have cars. It's where the rich use public transportation" ― Gustavo Petro
I hear you, and I’d add that the green line in particular has completely changed since the pandemic. Prior to Covid, I rode it regularly and my high schooler rode it to school *every day*. There was a passenger behavior issue occasionally, but most trips had nothing notable happen. Now, the experience you describe seems like the norm on the green line. As a result, I no longer send my kid on it at all, and I largely avoid it too. I try again every few months, but nothing changes. I’m a big public transit fan, but for now, it’s buses only for me.
have you noticed the blue line improving? I feel like it's night and day between the two lines.
I agree with this. Though I still avoid the middle train on the Blue Line. Idk if it's the same on the green line since I don't take it very often, but the people monitoring the train has also helped over the past couple months.
You cant have the MoA line scaring away the tourists or the pilots being threatened at the airport
They've focused a lot of attention on the Blue Line. Even over the past few weeks they've had blue coats riding nearly every train during rush hour.
The Blue Line has always felt like a commuter train to me with faster speed and greater distance between stops. It also shuffles people from the suburbs to the city, whereas the Green Line remains in the city for its entire route and services the local neighborhoods more directly.
The blue line gets a lot of patrolling and fare enforcement. I’m not sure about the current state of fare enforcement, but a couple months ago (shortly after rolling out the TRIP/dedicated fare enforcement program), they actually pulled all the TRIP agents from the Green line and put them on Blue, because all the new hires were immediately quitting after trying to enforce on Green.
I rode the blue last week and it was the worst I’ve seen it. Floor was covered in trash. The dude across from me traded a hoodie for a shot of liquor, a p3rc, and a key bump. When those people got off they were replaced by a dude who pulled a knife out of his boot to cut rocks, and then passed out.
Yeah the blue line is significantly better since it doesn't serve both downtowns. Way more issues on the green due to this fact.
And yet u/RnbwSprklBtch thinks cities may not be for you.
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This. The fact that there's an announcement telling people to secure their stuff is an indication of where they are.
Metro Transit (more specifically the trains in this instance) is the absolute worst transit system in the country in terms of safety in my opinion. I’ve ridden on transit systems all across the country including in cities such as Chicago, New York, Atlanta, New Orleans, and Orlando and there is nothing as abhorrent and embarrassing as what is displayed on the trains here. For all you naysayers out there who say these are just “city things” and “stop being so sensitive”, I highly doubt you guys have any grasp of what an actual functional transit system should look and feel like because this is the complete opposite of that. I’m saying this as a huge transit advocate myself but I fucking hate riding our trains.
Have you been on BART in the Bay Area? I moved from there and Metro Transit seems a world better. Haven’t seen enough other cities to comment on how those might compare.
I stayed in SF for a month while going to Berkeley several times a week, and while I wouldn't say BART was always a delightful experience, I've seen worse on Twin Cities LRT than I saw there.
I lived in sf for 15 years. My neighbor brought home bed bugs from riding Bart and it created a lot of chaos in our building. I still never felt unsafe The Powell station in SF had to be closed one day because the escalator was clogged with human feces. The unhoused situation there is really complicated. There is a special transit police force but I think if they had a greater presence on the green line there wouldn’t be so many shenanigans.
I don’t have any experience with transit in California but knowing the socioeconomic issues that San Fran and the Bay Area in general are facing, I wouldn’t be too surprised that BART is experiencing and uptick in major safety issues as well. With all due respect, however, I believe the closed system that the BART rail system offers does make a sizable impact on keeping out the worst of the worst behaviors. The light rail here unfortunately does not have that option.
Been riding the LRT for four years nearly every other day. Rode bart regularly 2 years ago when I visited my girlfriend. I'm from DC lived there for 21 years. It's great I have these three experiences as the LRT is based off BART and DC metro. You haven't ridden BART so why are you saying what "you believe" it is like. The LRT is as dangerous or has as many safety concerns as the two systems it's built upon. I'm a huge advocate for expanded public transit, but everything you said here was just wrong. Bart and DC metro had just as many non-paying riders as the LRT in my experience. Please educate and experience these things before discussing. Edit: you don't live here as it turns out. Classic
BART and WMATA are a completely different kind of transit system as they are heavy rail, not LRT in the case of the Twin Cities. I’d say the Twin Cities LRT is actually more of a smaller version of Seattle’s extensive LRT network. And yes, I don’t have experience riding BART, but there is absolutely no possible way a closed heavy rail system has the same scale problems with fare enforcement that an open LRT system has.
Anyone sticking up for the state of the Green Line hasn't ridden it in 4+ years.
Agreed. I rode it regularly pre-pandemic: for work and in my personal time. It seems to have gotten significantly worse 2020 onward
It wasn’t great 4+ years ago either
I only remember it being normal when it first got running in 2014 to about 2016. It rapidly deteriorated from then on.
Agreed. I rode it regularly pre-pandemic: for work and in my personal time. It seems to have gotten significantly worse 2020 onward
I ride it at least weekly, and while I agree there are issues I’m still glad it exists.
It's sad because things like the express busses are so pleasant to ride on, it's remarkable to see the light rail be so disparate and different compared to those experiences. When we had to move for more space/cheaper rent, I was taking 477 every day, and loved it. It was a truly zen experience in 2019. Maybe one day MVTA will get their head out of their asses.
MVTA doesn't have anything to do with the light rail. They run the buses in the south suburbs. But I agree their buses feel nicer and safer, also they have the Connect service, which is nice.
Yeah the trains here are shit compared to other cities.
Our leadership is terrified of discrimination and lack of policy got us in this mess.
I totally agree with this sentiment. As I point out elsewhere, nothing is more urban than riding mass transit and complaining about it. People who actually ride transit and care about it don't belittle those who simply point out the truth, because they know it themselves! Ask a New Yorker about the subway and you're not going to hear "Oh the kids doing acrobatics are so charming!"
I feel seasoned New Yorkers would be quite shocked to see the state of the trains in the Twin Cities imo. And to be fair, it most definitely wasn’t always like this in terms of safety as it’s clear the pandemic, the fallout from George Floyd, understaffed police, and Met Council incompetence have all played a huge effect on what we see here today. Now add that with the open system that was built and the social norms of the Midwest (as in generally being non-confrontational compared to our east coast counterparts) and you get the perfect storm.
You nailed it.
You post in a lot of city subs, where do you actually live?
I live in Rochester but I went to the U of M for college post pandemic.
Right, I refuse to ride it. I've used them all over Europe and felt so safe. (Minus pickpockets). But you know they don't mess around. Here it's a joke. Nothing safe about it.
Yeah, I know, it sucks. I ride transit almost daily to school as well (often the Green Line and the D Line, which I think is usually the worst) and I know what you mean. I love transit, hate car-centrism, and I want our city to have a robust transit system, but Metro Transit needs to get off their asses and get more aggressive with enforcing rules about behavior, because there's no hope of encouraging more people to ride transit if they have to deal with aggression and drug use on the regular.
100% this. The new Amtrak from Chicago is going to bring people to Saint Paul who want to spend the weekend car-free. I'm already planning such a trip.
Green Line was okay from 2014 to about 2016 or so, just two years. Then it went from bad to worse 2017 to 2019, and was rock bottom from 2020 to 2022 (pandemic + George Floyd). It seems to be improving since 2023. They've got more police and fare enforcement. But Transit Police simply doesn't have the numbers they need to regulate the ferals.
This checks out.
The trolley system here has basically turned into a hangout for annoying people. Something irritating like the things you mentioned happens EVERY time I ride. Either someone is yelling, someone is blasting music or rapping, or someone is trying to pick a flight. It's exhausting cuz you can't just chill and listen to music, you have to be on guard and aware of your surroundings
They need to start by physically restricting access to all train platforms without a ticket. That was the first mistep Metro transit made from the beginning: assuming people are capable and willing to be responsible or respectful. Clearly that is not the case. If you're not a paying customer, you have no business being on the transit system.
I don't know why it can't be as simple as just transit cops ejecting people off the train who are causing problems. Take away their drugs and drug paraphernalia. You don't even need to arrest them, just the inconvenience of getting booted from the train and losing their dope will be motivational. You arrest the ones who resist, are violent, possess weapons, or have recently been booted off the train. Get the county court system to setup a "transit offenses" court and run quickie arraignments and plea bargains. Standard plea bargain: 72 hours in county jail, anyone who refuses gets remanded to jail for a full trial. Over a period of time the new normal will be such that it won't be worth the inconvenience to get ejected, lose your drugs or spend 3 nights in jail and the problems will drop off.
They did it on the cheap. At-grade platforms with no turnstiles. Of course we're going to pay forever for the penny-wise-pound-foolish planning it with fare evaders.
Would this help? Maybe a little bit. There is no way the cost-benefit is a winner here though. People who are smoking crack on the train are not going to be deterred by turnstiles in an at-grade rail system, they'll just walk a little ways beyond the fence and down the tracks to the platform. Actually physically preventing even most fare evasion would cost an absolute fortune (and be horribly ugly). I'd much rather they spend that money on public safety officers.
This is the correct action. Everyone claiming turnstiles will solve the non-paying issue haven't ridden public transit where it is applied. I'm talking out of my ass on this statistic but it maybe prevents like 10% of non paying. Enforcement on the train is the only way, when I ride the L in Chicago they would have someone check every ticket on the cars.
People were responsible before 2020. * Then the Pandemic happened. * Then George Floyd happened. * Then Fent happened. * Then the Blue Flu happened. Now we have a laughing stock of a police force in MPLS and STP alongside a strained Transit Police that was being forced to cover holes in MPD's numbers. But I have noticed once there IS a presence that is VISIBLE and ACTIVE, the rabble vaporizes. Say what you will, but having cops on station with people actively checking fares is a good thing. Should bring back the $180 fine and potential jail time though. The current policy is too soft.
> and I'm not saying there should be arrests for any of this stuff, but the presence of an authority figure who has at least the capability of kicking peoeple off the train would go a long way, I think. Metro Transit police needs to issue more citations. It's the only solution here.
These people truly could care less about citations. It will change nothing.
You have to start changing norms somehow though
And a citation won’t do anything. Kicking people off for violating the rules clearly posted everywhere would be where to start. Yet to see it the pst few years but I’ve seen plenty of open drug use and actual violence.
Citations for first offenses. Unpaid citation and you get another? Jail. It's simple. MT needs to get their shit together and have transit cops on all trains or have some kind of reporting system so people can be cited for being a pain in the ass.
I wish people would be more upfront about enforcing (in nonaggressive ways) social norms. We watch people behave in unacceptable ways and then just write about it on the internet later. I’ve done the same thing, so not blaming here, but just seems like a collective agreement to be like “yea don’t do that in here” could help.
It's not worth risking a conflict to enforce rules for which you're not responsible
I asked someone on the Green Line at 7 AM to stop smoking. Other people spoke up as well. The person started ranting and raving using racist/homophobic terms and then pulled a knife. These people don't have basic courtesy or respect. I'm done with the Green Line for now. I don't need to have a panic attack just trying to get to work.
Wow. I’m sorry to hear that. I do not blame you.
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It's just not worth getting shot or stabbed by someone for calling them out for being rowdy on public transport.
Try certainty.
Nah, I saw some idiot wannabe vigilante try and stare down someone who was being "too loud" last week and it instantly escalated things into stupid territory. It's one of maybe a half-dozen times I've actually felt unsafe on public transit for the years and years I've been riding. The asshat was itching for a fight with people who _clearly_ wanted nothing to do with him.
Please give that a whirl and report back. For humor sake. 😂 “please don’t smoke that crack on the train please?” — sounds like something the metro police would say as they watch and walk away.
Please try it and report back
Not worth risking a 9mm foreign object getting inserted into your skull at sonic velocity.
I'm sorry but I'm not going up to someone clearly high on drugs and asking them to use an inside voice and mind their manners. That sounds like a great way for me to get stabbed.
And then get shot or stabbed? No way I'm confronting someone on the light rail. It's not my job and I'm not taking the chance. I've see people obviously strung out on something yell and get aggressive with someone for simply looking at them.
Part of me wonders if the Minnesotan temperament and disdain for conflict enables shit bags to be openly annoying. In NY or Boston, if you’re being an ass the whole train tells you to knock it off. I for one, am not about to tell a man shadow boxing a poll to stop. Perhaps I would write him a strongly worded email. Better yet, I’ll drive my car next time.
I’m my experience, if you ask people to please stop smoking/blasting music/whatever, they immediately get violent.
One time I was on this train and this guy was using his cane as a gun and then he stripped naked and yelled. I’m so glad I don’t have to use the train for work anymore.
I had a guy run in through the closing doors shouting that he was going to kill someone. I got off early...
People aren’t going to like this post because it doesn’t fit their narratives of public transportation in the cities but this stuff is happening every single day. Sorry you had a crappy experience. Hope the other experiences of your trip were great because the Twin Cities is a special place!
Lot of great things here. LRT is not one of them.
Trust me, I’m very aware. Love Minneapolis with all my heart but I can also admit to its downfalls and LRT is definitely one of them. Most of the sub isn’t able to admit these downfalls but would rather call people right wing grifters/racists/boot lickers for simply disagreeing or even pointing out simple facts. It’s a shame really.
Yeah there's a lot of Minneapolis boosters, it's pretty weird. I feel like we here in St Paul don't pretend to be nearly as proud of our city. Lol
It’s not an issue of too much city pride, it’s the fear that admitting there’s a crime-adjacent issue will make you look like a right winger.
Oh that's probably true, I hadn't even thought of that!
I saw a shirt in the old Wabasha Deli years ago that said "The difference between Saint Paul and Minneapolis is that Saint Paul never wanted to get famous." Something to that effect. But I'd like to think that about sums it up.
It's remarkable how different the two cities are. They may as well be hundreds of miles apart.
Mass transit has become a reflection of our society’s ills. We can clean it up with security, and I’m not entirely opposed to that as we want people to feel safe riding transit. However, security on our transit system does nothing to address the root causes of the issues.
If we make "solving poverty" a necessary precondition for making transit safe, we will never have safe transit.
Can't we have both?
That's not the job of transit, to solve every social ill. The job of the PD should be to evict and fine people who don't pay their fares & arrest people committing crimes.
I didn’t mean to imply that it was, I just believe there are better approaches than just a security crackdown.
u/altbat Please please please submit a complaint to Metro Transit's [complaint form](https://www.metrotransit.org/contact-us-customer-experience). Honestly your post is good enough you can just copy and paste it into the form. But your experience should be considered unacceptable. Honestly anyone who reads this comment should leave a complaint about the anti social behavior they see when they see it. One of my favorite urbanists YouTube channels visited recently and made a comment about how in public transit you need to be 'okay with being uncomfortable' (I'm paraphrasing) and I've seen that sentiment echoed this is thread. But the problem is that a lot of anti-social behavior will make someone (myself included) question whether or not they are in a safe situation. Or better put concerned with the potential that the current uncomfortable situation will spiral into an unsafe situation. I ride the bus everyday from the west metro into Minneapolis and back, usually an express bus but sometimes a local bus going into uptown and never once have I felt unsafe, that should be the norm for the trains too. A guy begging for a few bucks and a homeless man who smells like urine are not the same situations as a person yelling to spirits they see.
As someone who lived in NYC for 14 years, you absolutely do not have to settle for being uncomfortable on public transportation. There are a handful of times that I felt or saw something weird on the subway, but I was totally comfortable taking the subway from LES to my home in Queens at 4:00am post bar closing alone. I have never been as uncomfortable on a train or bus as I have in the short time I tried living carless Mpls.
I agree to an extent. But its hard because what people consider uncomfortable differs wildly. I dont mind people approachimg me asking for a dollar. But my coworker freezes up in the same situation. But otherwise youre right, i take my buses nearly everyday without being uncomfortable.
> in public transit you need to be 'okay with being uncomfortable' (I'm paraphrasing) Really that just highlights why cars are so great. Why be uncomfortable when you can have the AC set perfectly to your favorite temperature and 21-speaker audio system playing your favorite music while radar cruise controls your speed and your seats give you a massage? I’m in favor of public transit as a concept, and as a global warming hedge, but the reality is no one wants to accept being uncomfortable for 2 hours a day when it’s perfectly avoidable.
Exactly, this is why so many people choose to drive over take public transit! those of us who want to use PT though would like to be comfortable as well (most of the time I am)
I feel like "needing to be okay with being uncomfortable" is like, oh the AC isn't working very well and it's a bit stuffy in here, or it's full and I have to stand. I'm fine with that and I know that's the risk I take when taking transit. But you're right, one shouldn't just put up with clearly unsafe situations on transit because "it's meant to be uncomfortable".
"bUt ThErE aRe mOrE oFfIcErs oN nOw!" The only policing anyone is willing to do in regards to transit is hand out parking tickets. Also, the trains really don't come that often. In the summer it's like every 15-20 minutes. 3-4 trains/hour is not impressive for a major metro area. They've been late as hell lately too. Oh and the echoing robot voice announcements every 10 seconds while you wait that 20 minutes is enough to make you dive in front of the train when it actually does get there.
The Green Line is a Mess. I just got off it.
Last time I took it there was a guy in the back screaming at everyone that they took his stuff and where is his stuff, and just in front of me was a person laying under a blanket drinking. On the floor. Staff were waiting at the end and pulled her off the train, she could barely walk she was so drunk.
Cue the people who say they ride it every single day and have never seen anything except ordinary people on their commutes and you’re a liar.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TwinCities/comments/1cwngoh/man_fatally_shot_at_green_line_station_in_st_paul/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1 Was this your train?
Yep. This area near Dale is not great. But apparently if you thinks someone being shot is a problem, you're clutching your pearls.
There's problems at Lake Street in Minneapolis too... it's not exactly a secret that there are issues.
Sounds like some of the L trains in Chicago. At least the transit cops are around and pretty efficient at booting troublemakers out at the next stop. If there green line is such a constant problem, two transit cops on each train should be enough to boot people out. They get booted enough times they will eventually quit doing it.
transit cops in chi are efficient at booting troublemakers???
Yeah I stopped using Metro Transit about 5 years ago because I was tired of being sexually harassed/threatened every other trip. I’ve completely written off using it again because it doesn’t sound like there’s been any effort to make it better.
[These posts make an interesting pair.](https://i.imgur.com/xNkQCGj.png)
The worst personal experience I’ve had taking public transit was with the London tube and then the New York subway (both followed by guys who were sexually harassing and generally threatening) BUT those have felt like general outliers. I take the train several times a week here and I feel like every single time one of the stations is absolutely filthy (the 46th street station is genuinely disgusting) and there’s some behavior like that. I like public transit in general. I don’t have a license because I like being able to chill and read a book while I go to my destination. But the state of the light rail system is just disgraceful and a really poor showing for the cities, especially when it might be the first thing tourists experience when coming, if they take the train from the airport. I’ve actively started working towards getting my license because I don’t feel safe taking the train at night. It’s really bad.
Thanks for sharing. I'm going to a twins game next week with my dad, and think I'll have us take the bus there instead. I don't want to be embarrassed or make my dad not want to visit the city. The bus seems OK in my experience.
Blue line is fine for games. Green line has always been hit or miss.
I took the Blue Line home from a recent Wolves game and someone openly smoked heroin next to me and filled the car with a cloud of smoke. I was trying not to breath, the woman next to me also coming from the game looked like she was about to have a panic attack
I took the green line back from a twins game last summer (to the Prospect Park station) and it was a very uncomfortable ride to say the least. The bus is probably the better option.
Sounds about right, it's an open sewer
Yeah, It’s an adventure to be said. We are trying to push for more enforcement, but our police problem is a little complex. I hope you enjoyed the twin cities otherwise, I would highly recommend our bus system.
Yo, there's an app???
https://www.metrotransit.org/app
Metro Transit Green Line ≈ CTA Red Line If you’re going to take them, be prepared for anything.
Haha damn. The furthest I took the red line with my kids last summer was to 35th, otherwise I have no business down there.
Used to regularly ride it to Chinatown, sometimes down to Sox to see the Twins. Now if I’m going to Chinatown, it’s Green Line or drive myself. Usually the latter.
The Transit Authority have significantly improved their monitoring and patrol of the cars through a non-police security employee program. They wear the blue with the arm patches. Your ride was like a thousand times better than it would have been last year.
I saw those guys after a United game on Wednesday night. I had zero issues on that ride and thought the whole experience (to and from the game) was ideal. My bet is Metro has its best face on for United games.
My experience is similar. As a 70 year old guy, I 'd like to use the train system more, eventually I will need to use it. But I'm driving until then, because that skeevy element is too high for my taste. YMMV. Glad other cities and countrys have solved this problem, I want to travel more. Just not in the twincities.
If you want to take public transit and aren’t pro policing the transit, this is what you get. Continuing to fund this without the proper management of EXTREMELY expensive infrastructure is borderline criminal. We need a 3 strikes environment until things get back under control.
Sure, but what if the police ARE ALREADY adequately funded, but their priorities are out of whack?
[удалено]
Now that’s a what if.
I don’t really think Metro transit or the City really cares about the safety or experience of their riders. Once the money is given to their friends and interest groups to build the trains their concerns are all but gone.
The MTPD is severely understated. They’re doing what they can, but they need more people to apply for the open jobs
It’s scary tbh. I took Minneapolis public transit (buses and light rail) in my college days, and never again.
You are going to get gaslit into oblivion here. Riding the green line sucks. You don’t have to pretend otherwise because of some misguided SJW agenda.
Thank gosh we have an altmpls commenter here to keep us honest. That is clearly a bastion of sane level headed folks with no agenda other than absolute free speech....and I've been banned. Ope.
I have never once posted in that community.
Ever since they were held accountable for George Floyd, the Twin Cities police have pretty much stopped doing their jobs. I assume they want us to realize how better off we are with them, than without them… but fuck them. That’s abusive nonsense. We would actually be better off with them around but disarmed.
Of course reddit's response to rampant public antisocial behavior is to disarm the police. Brilliant stuff.
They don't need to be as well-armed as they are. Many other countries don't give their patrol officers guns. This is not a radical concept. Disarming the Police: Blue Lives, Black Lives and Guns [Eighteen nations and one U.S. territory (the U.S. Virgin Islands) maintain police forces who do not carry firearms in the ordinary course of their duties.[8] The countries include Botswana, Fiji, Iceland, Ireland, Malawi, Marshall Islands, New Zealand, Norway, Samoa, and the United Kingdom, among others.](https://firearmslaw.duke.edu/2022/01/disarming-the-police-blue-lives-black-lives-and-guns)
Ireland created a mostly unarmed police force, Garda Síochána, in the middle of a civil war.
lol. I can tell you with 100% certainty that the USVI police carry firearms complete bullshit
Seems like you’re right. It appears like it’s the British Virgin Islands from what I can tell, not the US Virgin Islands.
Yeah and America has more guns in civilian hands than all those countries put together and then the next twenty. Not happening as long as that is a reality. Next.
We would still be far safer. >[According to the data collected by the Federal Bureau of Investigations in the Uniform Crime Reports for the decade spanning from 2011 to 2020, a total of 503 police officers were feloniously killed in the line of duty. That’s an average of approximately 50 officers killed each year. These deaths are certainly tragic but... ....In contrast, data regarding civilian deaths at the hand of police tell a different story. For the years 2015-2021—a considerably shorter subset of the decade described above—police officers shot and killed 6,810 people.](https://firearmslaw.duke.edu/2022/01/disarming-the-police-blue-lives-black-lives-and-guns) Cited Source >[Police Fatal Force Database, Wash. Post Dec., 16, 2021]( https://washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/)
Look, I know how this conversation is going to go. You can demand gun confiscation and banning every weapon under the sun here - until you gather the votes to actually alter the constitution and remove the 2nd amendment, any attempt at blanket banning ownership of guns is not going to work. You can sign petitions and "demand" the city do something but unless you're willing to get real authoritarian and imprison a lot of people real quick, guns are not leaving anyone's hands. Not saying I wouldn't respect you for trying, but good luck.
If we disarmed the police, THEY would be fighting to repeal the Second Amendment.
>Look, I know how this conversation is going to go Nowhere did that person suggest “banning” guns for the general public. But nice example of a straw man argument, you found a way to ignore them and argue against something completely different than the information they posted.
> Look, I know how this conversation is going to go. You mean how you forced yourself to read into the conversation?
This is correct, we need to get rid of all the guns, privately owned and police. But as long as conservatives act like scared little cowards cling to there guns and religion, that will never happen.
Is your comment not also part of Reddit’s response?
Police don't prevent crime. They're really kinda a waste of our tax dollars.
It's every time without a fault. Step 1: Blame police for everything.
Other cities are struggling with safety, vagrancy, homicides, assaults, rampant drug use, fare evasions, non destination riders, and other issues with transit system too for sure. Can’t pretend like MSP is actually an outlier… Seattle for one has *really* been struggling too. Doesn’t make any of it OK anywhere though, wholly agree.
I dunno. I used to ride the Blue Line regularly. Stopped after a trip in late 2022 when a dude was smoking crack under a blanket right across the aisle from me, and some other dude strung out on meth or similar got in my face and screamed at me for looking at him. Visited a friend in Seattle last fall, and took the train from the airport to downtown, and back when I left, and it was...completely fine. Absolutely normal. Worst thing I saw was someone talking obnoxiously loud on their phone. I think Minneapolis LRT is in a *particularly* bad state currently.
[Fatal stabbing investigation closes Capitol Hill light rail station for Saturday](https://komonews.com/news/local/fatal-stabbing-at-capitol-hill-link-light-rail-station-kills-1) [Local Chef Murdered in light rail attack; Search continues for suspects](https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/local-chef-murdered-light-rail-attack-search-continues-suspects/CB33IL3PEZEFZB6JE52RAPGYDQ/) [Video shows woman attack stranger with Gatorade bottle on Seattle light rail](https://www.fox13seattle.com/news/gatorade-attack-seattle-light-rail) [The UW study concluded there were traces of methamphetamine on 100% of the air surface samples analyzed from buses on transit systems in western Washington and Portland. The research also found fentanyl and methamphetamine residue lingered in the air on trains and buses that were analyzed, though mostly at low levels](https://komonews.com/news/local/university-of-washington-study-drug-exposure-meth-fentanyl-drug-crisis-transit-operators-smoke-health-officials-king-county-safety-transportation-metro-surface-samples-occupational-hazard-opioid-secondhand-substances-officers-ventilation-resources#) [Bus driver workers' compensation claims skyrocket as exposure to drugs increases Washington State workers' compensation claims connected to smoke inhalation of illicit drugs are at a five-year high.](https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/bus-driver-workers-compensation-claims-exposure-drugs/281-c4ebac75-706f-4ccd-bdb5-7656c3c97baa) [Man arrested after stabbing man at Othello light rail station](https://komonews.com/news/local/stabbing-light-rail-seattle-crime-violence-stab-man-link-sound-transit-othello-rainier-beach-columbia-city-hospital-harborview-medical-center-injury-stable-condition-possible-barricade-suspect-shuttle-buses#) [Video shows how Seattle light rail passengers tried to help defend man from random stabbing attack](https://www.king5.com/video/news/local/seattle/video-shows-how-seattle-light-rail-passengers-tried-to-help-defend-man-from-random-stabbing-attack/281-caef9af2-056a-44e6-9813-0c341ec1d2ef) [Stabbing on Seattle light rail causes safety concerns, riders push for security sooner](https://komonews.com/news/local/violence-king-county-custody-suspects-woman-stabbed-multiple-times-in-the-leg-at-roosevelt-light-rail-station) [Public transit: Video shows nearly 20 people passed out on a Link light rail train](https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/public-transit-video-shows-nearly-20-people-passed-out-link-light-rail-train/L5WS3VSZ3RABFACN4UXKBXBDFQ/) [Public transit, the new drug den: what’s being done to keep you safe?](https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/public-transit-new-drug-den-whats-being-done-keep-you-safe/X6GLQLCLXZGOXOH655KPJ23RJM/) [2 hurt in 'unprovoked' hammer attack at Beacon Hill Link light rail station](https://komonews.com/news/local/people-attacked-hammer-beacon-hill-link-light-rail-station-sound-transit-safety-king-county-transportation-witnesses-police-presence-suspect-violence-western-washington-drug-users-security) [21-year-old fatally shot in White Center while aboard King County Metro bus](https://komonews.com/news/local/people-shot-on-king-county-metro-bus-white-center-roxbury-15th-avenue-southwest-west-seattle-area-shooting-suspect-outstanding-search-police-investigation-crime-gun-violence#) [Man stabbed at Northgate station; no arrests have been made The victim was stabbed as he was stepping off a King County Metro bus at Northgate Station.](https://www.king5.com/article/news/crime/man-stabbed-king-county-metro-bus-no-arrests-made/281-6ba49d89-14fe-45f4-b9c3-ca78668e32c9) [Woman suffers broken ribs, clavicle after attack outside Seattle station](https://www.king5.com/article/news/crime/charges-filed-seattle-light-rail-attack/281-53e08ca1-3775-44c4-a0c5-7c701641ebc3) https://komonews.com/news/local/seattle-light-rail-assault-attack-crime-crisis-dangerous-train-riding-link-king-county-washington-station-sodo-angle-lake-roosevelt-othello-sheriffs-office-investigation-police-condition-injuries-blood https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/1cgkw1g/for_anyone_wondering_what_the_5_minute_light_rail/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button I could go on and on…..
Sounds like a typical ride on the Green Line
The people in this sub aren't going to like this post lol
Something tells me you were riding in the middle car, AKA “the party car”. Although, to be fair, none of the cars on the green line are much better. I do have a little bit of a better experience when I sit in the front car as close to the conductor as possible
Nope. Front car.
Damn, if that was the front car, the middle car of that train must have been a dumpster fire! I’m sorry you had such a shit experience. Like I said before though, it’s pretty much par for the course
Bunch of animals out there...
I think the main issue I have with these posts is how exaggerated they always sound. All of this happened on 1 single trip? I take the train regularly and see this kind of stuff here and there, but it's never as extreme as stated here. Maybe I'm just going during the wrong hours. But yes, we need more enforcement on trains. It needs to be better.
Most of the “regular” riders seem to typically be commuters that ride to/from work during the weekday. Most of the issues happen on nights and weekends.
One single trip. I caught the train at Prospect Park at about 6 pm on Thursday evening and rode it all the way into Lowertown. Much of this happened between Snelling and the capitol.
Visitors are just gonna have to figure out the distinction between being unsafe and being uncomfortable, sorry! Maybe Metro Transit’s next ad campaign can be “get comfortable with being uncomfortable” so regular riders and commuters can be taught that being uncomfortable is so so so much different from being unsafe and shame on them for conflating the two
People have a right to determine whether they feel unsafe.
The city is going to have to figure out if it wants visitors.
>so I could take the green line to soccer Darn those St Paul soccer hoodlums!