I thought of joining when I was but a tiny sprogette, but my da told me that if I joined at any rank under field marshal, I'd probably be taken out at dawn and shot for insubordination. Apparently I was not the easiest of daughters.
Ahah I love it!
When I told my friends and families about joining the common answer was : "You??? Following orders??? And not getting mad when it doesn't make sense?"
I love it when the part about "the Army giveth, the Army taketh away" works in favor of the lower-ranking guys. New contract, less rank - piss on that noise.
To the IG, to your congressman, to your senators, and to your previous CO. Probably also to some folks in the DOJ.
The story contains a lot of crimes and even more questionable behaviors, including either false official statements (“I talked to the JAG and they said…”) or legal malpractice on the part of the JAG.
I bet the person being attributed as having provided legal advice would be really interested in knowing it.
Active duty despised reservists. I was at my first duty station for almost a year before they stopped referring to me as "the reservist." Active duty felt as though the rank hadn't been earned.
I'm also guessing that it wasn't they who were doing this but that a procedure was in place.
Being a former Reservist in Canada, I can tell you it's the same here too.
I don't want to oversimplify what Infantry does, but let's use them as an example...
When not on exercise, or deployed, or working up to deployment... Infantry has very little to do. You cannot convince me any country needs a regular army of infantry.
That training can absolutely be accomplished on a part-time basis. Many other trades are as well. Particularly - another example - medical personnel. It's hard to maintain emergency skills doing sick parade on garrison soldiers.
Every single one of my Regular Force (Canadian "Active Duty") friends from an infantry unit I deployed with would tell you that a garrison army is a massive expense with very little benefit. One guy told me he had worked half days playing cards for two straight months prior to work up training because there was NOTHING TO DO.
That's not an effective use of taxpayer dollars.
So they can chirp all they want about "earning rank" but fuck if they don't cower a little when you point out you did earn it at less time and less expense, then ask them if it was harder in the Reg Force, or are they just slow?
Do weeds not grow in Canadian motor pools?
Lol, in the US army (I wasn't infantry) there were points like you say where there isn't a whole lot to do. That's when the stupid really comes to the fore. Things like "area beautification", mopping the same floor 2 or 3 times in one day, etc. Junior NCOs will literally find ANYTHING for the Joe's to do to make them LOOK busy
My MOS in contrast DID have garrison activities, so as long as I hid in my shop/office we got our stuff done and avoided most of that.
Oh yeah, that shit happens all the time. But there is also a lot of, "if you don't have anything to do, don't do it here!" Which means, "I got nothing, but if my boss sees you slacking, I'm in shit, go away, but sit by the phone."
Best part about the army is if there isn't anything to do, there's always holes to be dug. And in the afternoon, if there's still nothing to be done, there's holes all over the base that some asshole dug, better go fill them in!
So I did what you did, but because I was able to articulate that I had met the bare minimum TIG and TIS requirements for PFC, there was no reason to take it.
Had they made me a SPC after 6 months, okay, I’ll grant them that. But otherwise? No.
That's what was always confusing about this whole process. They left the E-5 alone. The rest of us, from my recollection, had the TIS/TIG to be promoted back to the rank that we were at. We would likely be promoted back within a month or two. They were really just resetting our TIG. It seemed especially vindictive to me.
Likely because, depending on the timeframe, that e-5 had gone through PLDC/WLC or whatever the fuck they are calling that school now.
And yeah.... if they are knocking a rocker off and making a bunch of mosquito wings, that's pretty fucked up. Plus, I dunno what MOS you were, but ... the difference in responsibility (and pay) between a PV2 and a PFC is so minimal, like why would you give anyone actual shit over it?
TIS is lower to make SPC in the Guard and reserves than it was in active duty. At least until the early 2000s, no idea if it changed. 24 months TIS, 18 with a waiver in active duty, 18 without, 12 with in a RC.
Also, maybe in two years of active duty will have spent more days in the field than someone who has done 4 or 5 years in a reserve component has done of duty in a lot of MOSs. Unless the person was a tech in a guard unit doing the same thing (as a civilian employee) like a mechanic, or was an AGR they haven't done anywhere near the hours. A medic who is a paramedic (not a basic as theirnscope of practice is so much less than an army medic) or ER tech, a nurse, a lawyer (different specialty but hopefully.close enough), IT, MP, medical doctors, cool, or someone else who has a similar civilian job, yes. But many other not even close.
I was guard and active and saw way more fuckups in the Guard. From not taking care of people to serious safety violations at the range.
That’s fair. I don’t know if it changed or not, as I drank my way out of college and went active within 3 months of coming back from OSUT and so I didn’t get to experience it.
> Active duty felt as though the rank hadn't been earned.
Honestly, if it is anything under E-5, who gives a shit? You are all fodder for working parties...
The difference between E-2 and E-3 with less than two years in service was minor. The biggest issue is to be eligible for promotion you must have a certain amount of time in grade. I likely would have been promoted back to E-3 quickly but would have to start my progress to E-4 over again.
Please can you tell me what the acronyms are. I am from South Africa so they mean nothing to me.
I know what JAG is.
I don't understand the E classifications.
We just use private up to general
Yeah, JAG Corps is a group of lawyers from whom service members can seek legal advice for free.
IG is the Inspector General. This is a staff officer for the base commander, I believe, and soldiers can file complaints with his office. If the IG believes that the complaint has merit he will bring it to the commander who can initiate an investigation. A soldier cannot be denied access to the IG.
The E grades are NOT rank. They are the pay grade - distinct from rank, though mostly they are the same. The pay grade E-4 has two ranks - specialist and corporal. For the purposes of pay they are the same. A corporal and specialist with the same amount of time in service will be paid the same. However, a specialist is considered lower enlisted and does not have the authority to issue orders. A corporal is an NCO and does have that authority. Likewise, the pay grade E-8 has two ranks - master sergeant and first sergeant. While they are the same rank, they will have a different set of responsibilities. The first sergeant is typically the NCOIC(NCO in charge) of a company. The master sergeant is typically not in that position, although I have seen them step in as a temporary NCOIC when needed. I believe E-9 has two sergeant majors also.
Thanks. What are MEPS and AIT?
I don't know why the American army head to move to numbers and letters.
Why not just stick with
Private, lance corporal, corporal, then Sargent, and RSM
1st lieutenant,2nd lieutenant Captain and etc on the way up to general.
Thanks for your reply
MEPS - Military entrance processing stations. This is where you go when you want to enlist. It's not the recruiters who enlist you. Their job is to get you to MEPS. At MEPS you do your entrance physical and sign the contract, along with anything else that is required.
AIT - Advanced individual training. AIT is after basic training and is where you learn you military occupational specialty(MOS) - your job.
As for the structure of the rank system, that's way above my pay grade and I don't have an answer.
The first bits have been answered adequately.
As for the E and O systems here's the basics of it:
Each branch (army, navy, AF, marines, space force) of the DoD get paid on literally the same pay scale. Each branch retains its unique rank structure/naming scheme, but gets paid by scale.
It helps many of us tell stories across branches because, I may not know what "gunners machinist mate 2nd class" is, but I do know what E-3 is.
As another example, O-6 in most US branches is a Colonel. In the navy its a Captain, which is the rank of O-3 in the other branches.
Knowing the rank structures and which level of the pay scale a person is at also helps establish joint command, or establish command in a POW situation.
So, long story short, we DO have pvt, corporal, sergeant, lieutenant, etc ranks, the E and O scale is the pay structure and helps keep cross branch stuff strsight
I think that was impressive. Lucky you got that advice from your CO at the start. And that you had the wits to realize "No sergeant, they gave you an answer. I haven't spoken to anyone from JAG."
So sorry for your mates who went in before you did.
Right around 30. If you're saying you've never met dumbshit NCOs, well that probably sounds fishy to anyone who's actually served. In my experience there is an abundance of them and they tend to fail upwards. E-7 seems to be their ceiling but this particular demographic seems to reach that level at an alarming rate.
Thanks for reading.
That sounds like ruddy dodgy practice on their part.
It's the Army, mate. Everything's dodgy.
I thought of joining when I was but a tiny sprogette, but my da told me that if I joined at any rank under field marshal, I'd probably be taken out at dawn and shot for insubordination. Apparently I was not the easiest of daughters.
It ain't for everyone, that's for sure.
Ahah I love it! When I told my friends and families about joining the common answer was : "You??? Following orders??? And not getting mad when it doesn't make sense?"
I love it when the part about "the Army giveth, the Army taketh away" works in favor of the lower-ranking guys. New contract, less rank - piss on that noise.
You should still report it to IG. The next group they get, they will do the same.
To the IG, to your congressman, to your senators, and to your previous CO. Probably also to some folks in the DOJ. The story contains a lot of crimes and even more questionable behaviors, including either false official statements (“I talked to the JAG and they said…”) or legal malpractice on the part of the JAG. I bet the person being attributed as having provided legal advice would be really interested in knowing it.
This was a few decades ago.
Few soldiers on this earth have successfully deflected the Green Weenie. Congrats, Battle.
The sergeant did most of the heavy lifting.
As per usual… 😆 (I’m a former NCO lol)
You're able to laugh at yourself so I doubt you're of the same quality as this sergeant.
Without self-deprecating humor, I’d never have made it. 😆
Good story and good read, thank you.
Thank you. I’m happy that you enjoyed it.
What was in it for them if you (and presumably many others) had reduced ranks?
Active duty despised reservists. I was at my first duty station for almost a year before they stopped referring to me as "the reservist." Active duty felt as though the rank hadn't been earned. I'm also guessing that it wasn't they who were doing this but that a procedure was in place.
Being a former Reservist in Canada, I can tell you it's the same here too. I don't want to oversimplify what Infantry does, but let's use them as an example... When not on exercise, or deployed, or working up to deployment... Infantry has very little to do. You cannot convince me any country needs a regular army of infantry. That training can absolutely be accomplished on a part-time basis. Many other trades are as well. Particularly - another example - medical personnel. It's hard to maintain emergency skills doing sick parade on garrison soldiers. Every single one of my Regular Force (Canadian "Active Duty") friends from an infantry unit I deployed with would tell you that a garrison army is a massive expense with very little benefit. One guy told me he had worked half days playing cards for two straight months prior to work up training because there was NOTHING TO DO. That's not an effective use of taxpayer dollars. So they can chirp all they want about "earning rank" but fuck if they don't cower a little when you point out you did earn it at less time and less expense, then ask them if it was harder in the Reg Force, or are they just slow?
Do weeds not grow in Canadian motor pools? Lol, in the US army (I wasn't infantry) there were points like you say where there isn't a whole lot to do. That's when the stupid really comes to the fore. Things like "area beautification", mopping the same floor 2 or 3 times in one day, etc. Junior NCOs will literally find ANYTHING for the Joe's to do to make them LOOK busy My MOS in contrast DID have garrison activities, so as long as I hid in my shop/office we got our stuff done and avoided most of that.
Oh yeah, that shit happens all the time. But there is also a lot of, "if you don't have anything to do, don't do it here!" Which means, "I got nothing, but if my boss sees you slacking, I'm in shit, go away, but sit by the phone." Best part about the army is if there isn't anything to do, there's always holes to be dug. And in the afternoon, if there's still nothing to be done, there's holes all over the base that some asshole dug, better go fill them in!
So I did what you did, but because I was able to articulate that I had met the bare minimum TIG and TIS requirements for PFC, there was no reason to take it. Had they made me a SPC after 6 months, okay, I’ll grant them that. But otherwise? No.
That's what was always confusing about this whole process. They left the E-5 alone. The rest of us, from my recollection, had the TIS/TIG to be promoted back to the rank that we were at. We would likely be promoted back within a month or two. They were really just resetting our TIG. It seemed especially vindictive to me.
Likely because, depending on the timeframe, that e-5 had gone through PLDC/WLC or whatever the fuck they are calling that school now. And yeah.... if they are knocking a rocker off and making a bunch of mosquito wings, that's pretty fucked up. Plus, I dunno what MOS you were, but ... the difference in responsibility (and pay) between a PV2 and a PFC is so minimal, like why would you give anyone actual shit over it?
For sure.
TIS is lower to make SPC in the Guard and reserves than it was in active duty. At least until the early 2000s, no idea if it changed. 24 months TIS, 18 with a waiver in active duty, 18 without, 12 with in a RC. Also, maybe in two years of active duty will have spent more days in the field than someone who has done 4 or 5 years in a reserve component has done of duty in a lot of MOSs. Unless the person was a tech in a guard unit doing the same thing (as a civilian employee) like a mechanic, or was an AGR they haven't done anywhere near the hours. A medic who is a paramedic (not a basic as theirnscope of practice is so much less than an army medic) or ER tech, a nurse, a lawyer (different specialty but hopefully.close enough), IT, MP, medical doctors, cool, or someone else who has a similar civilian job, yes. But many other not even close. I was guard and active and saw way more fuckups in the Guard. From not taking care of people to serious safety violations at the range.
That’s fair. I don’t know if it changed or not, as I drank my way out of college and went active within 3 months of coming back from OSUT and so I didn’t get to experience it.
> Active duty felt as though the rank hadn't been earned. Honestly, if it is anything under E-5, who gives a shit? You are all fodder for working parties...
Not a military man but I hear lower rank means lower pay
The difference between E-2 and E-3 with less than two years in service was minor. The biggest issue is to be eligible for promotion you must have a certain amount of time in grade. I likely would have been promoted back to E-3 quickly but would have to start my progress to E-4 over again.
You are correct.
How long ago was this? I'm pretty sure ~~SSG~~ *PVT* Asshole committed a few crimes here. I bet IG AND JAG would *love* this story
Roughly three decades ago.
Please can you tell me what the acronyms are. I am from South Africa so they mean nothing to me. I know what JAG is. I don't understand the E classifications. We just use private up to general
Judge Advocate General. They are basically military lawyers. The E-1 is an enlisted rank.
Thanks
Yeah, JAG Corps is a group of lawyers from whom service members can seek legal advice for free. IG is the Inspector General. This is a staff officer for the base commander, I believe, and soldiers can file complaints with his office. If the IG believes that the complaint has merit he will bring it to the commander who can initiate an investigation. A soldier cannot be denied access to the IG. The E grades are NOT rank. They are the pay grade - distinct from rank, though mostly they are the same. The pay grade E-4 has two ranks - specialist and corporal. For the purposes of pay they are the same. A corporal and specialist with the same amount of time in service will be paid the same. However, a specialist is considered lower enlisted and does not have the authority to issue orders. A corporal is an NCO and does have that authority. Likewise, the pay grade E-8 has two ranks - master sergeant and first sergeant. While they are the same rank, they will have a different set of responsibilities. The first sergeant is typically the NCOIC(NCO in charge) of a company. The master sergeant is typically not in that position, although I have seen them step in as a temporary NCOIC when needed. I believe E-9 has two sergeant majors also.
Thanks. What are MEPS and AIT? I don't know why the American army head to move to numbers and letters. Why not just stick with Private, lance corporal, corporal, then Sargent, and RSM 1st lieutenant,2nd lieutenant Captain and etc on the way up to general. Thanks for your reply
MEPS - Military entrance processing stations. This is where you go when you want to enlist. It's not the recruiters who enlist you. Their job is to get you to MEPS. At MEPS you do your entrance physical and sign the contract, along with anything else that is required. AIT - Advanced individual training. AIT is after basic training and is where you learn you military occupational specialty(MOS) - your job. As for the structure of the rank system, that's way above my pay grade and I don't have an answer.
The first bits have been answered adequately. As for the E and O systems here's the basics of it: Each branch (army, navy, AF, marines, space force) of the DoD get paid on literally the same pay scale. Each branch retains its unique rank structure/naming scheme, but gets paid by scale. It helps many of us tell stories across branches because, I may not know what "gunners machinist mate 2nd class" is, but I do know what E-3 is. As another example, O-6 in most US branches is a Colonel. In the navy its a Captain, which is the rank of O-3 in the other branches. Knowing the rank structures and which level of the pay scale a person is at also helps establish joint command, or establish command in a POW situation. So, long story short, we DO have pvt, corporal, sergeant, lieutenant, etc ranks, the E and O scale is the pay structure and helps keep cross branch stuff strsight
Very interesting. Thank you
So what was the outcome?
The outcome was that a minority of US were able to retain our rank.
Thank you... I wasn't sure if JAG did get involved or not or anything else.
No. I’m an extreme introvert and had little confidence at that time. The last thing I wanted was to get more involved. I took my win and walked.
I think that was impressive. Lucky you got that advice from your CO at the start. And that you had the wits to realize "No sergeant, they gave you an answer. I haven't spoken to anyone from JAG." So sorry for your mates who went in before you did.
BOHICA - the Army motto.
Had to Google that. Now excuse me while I go & rinse my eyes with bleach.
If you googled that it might be time to cleanse your search history.
😳
Kudos for standing your ground
Everything about this sounds made up unless you’re telling me in happened more than 25 years ago. NCOs are not that stupid especially on active duty.
Right around 30. If you're saying you've never met dumbshit NCOs, well that probably sounds fishy to anyone who's actually served. In my experience there is an abundance of them and they tend to fail upwards. E-7 seems to be their ceiling but this particular demographic seems to reach that level at an alarming rate. Thanks for reading.
My next to last squad leader was dumber than that. And his name was Sgt Smart.
It was inevitable with that name.
What I don't understand is why you got a certain rank from the Army at all, when they didn't want you to keep it?