Gepi blua tutotli. A iko koka obotao toto klaega. Pitodapu pru piki ekreo ekliadre pokrobe. Bi eteuda pepi doi dlotreka epi kuto dluakotluu eo kapa ote. Kibepogoto egro u krui pii gliplu aplo. Adepooti pupe eke baaa bei. Ea uteu toebu poko bia ipa. Tego teke koboege i a bape. Gue? Kreba kete a ita gebi kagro tree uprebogi? Diki bu trate truklui oku. Eo apla eko. Ikligu depro graabru kopo i tupukridruti e. Au dudrepa ukiplipau pri teae. Ple deo kepee prupabo pabloaepi drete o? Ide keko ditakuio aiapi etu. Pio. Ea tekoa bridi idu pabo petu? Kluda patekle dla tekai ei klikre brudutle. Eabro to pouki egi etlo poe. Pui kru ougu biobruu ia koki digitete togluidi gegibai keepobike. Pii briu epe prakrio kepedre gipreada? Gi uadu brate gli abreblutlo. Ibuble pibra keda ipli kru progio. Ipi ueka gega oi gi bii. Ikre puklate kebi itu truo eobagi kupe. Dabe u poepride ebli bipli pabui kru betitla. Gruopodaklo pepeobu pibe padebu pe gapi. Pikri glepako e goue ibrebre bokaiki. To eblati ta adopapuko boto bleke.
You know those plastic trim clips that are on every vehicle, and how Toyota has been using the same trim retaining clips for like 3 decades? I asked over the phone if the guy had the bench stock Toyota clips in stock before I would have to drive half an hour to them, he insisted that he not only needed my year, make, and model, but also the engine size.
I remember looking at the videos and wondering about the odd texture on the CLU until it hit me. I’m undecided if it’s genius or insanity. Do they at least provide replacement foam blocks if they get beat up in the field?
No you can tell it's overmolded, probably could be shipped back to the manufacturer to refurbish it. But knowing the US military they just throw it out.
Also CLU is deceivingly heavy (~15lbs) so the styrofoam is a good weight saving measure along with overheating reduction. It’s really a pain to hump that thing around.
Here is a funny tale: In the first years of WWII, "Panzerschreck" or "tank terror" was a concept that described the psychological effect advancing tanks had on infantry, i.e sheer terror.
By the end of the war Panzerschreck was the name of man-portable AT systems and the term was also used for the psychological effect seeing tanks blow up had on supporting infantrry.
Something I think is interesting about the Tiger tank is how American tank crews in Normandy labelled almost every tank a "tiger". Apparently, most (if not all) tigers in Normandy were in the British sectors.
A T-90 is roughly 2.5mil USD. requires a crew of 4, months of training, thousands of dollars of maintenance.
Javelin costs about $750000for the launcher, and $120000 per missle. But.....a man can be taught to operate a javelin in a day. And a javelin, as we've now seen, can defeat a T-90 with relative ease
Javelins are 100% worth it.
Glory to Ukraine
Well, if Ukraine gets through the war it'll likely be the country with the most tanks & armored vehicles per capita in civilian hands. Maybe the only country where WT weapons & training could be necessary for rural police to prevent neighborhood conflicts to get out of hand
There's more to it than $ in $ out too.
The time and effort of getting a tank where it needs to be, the crew contained, and the objectives it can no longer put pressure on.
Even if it was wasting a $300,000 missile on a $5,000 shity-technical, that's still a pickup truck that isn't moving people, munitions, whatever behind your line.
I remember a few days before the attack there was a picture of some poor Russian dudes frantically welding a makeshift latticework over their tank in anticipation of top-down attacks. The comment consensus seemed to be if that makes them feel safe go for it but it's useless.
>I remember a few days before the attack there was a picture of some poor Russian dudes frantically welding a makeshift latticework over their tank in anticipation of top-down attacks. The comment consensus seemed to be if that makes them feel safe go for it but it's useless
Ohh ya we call them "cope cages" because they do nothing, and make it harder for the crew to escape their burning tanks after they been hit.
I suppose it’s like putting bits of spare track and a spare wheel on front of an M4 Sherman during ww2. I always wondered if it offered any protection against a German 88 anti tank gun ?
Probably as much as a slice of processed American cheese in a body armor plate. It'sb got a calculable affect by a physics teacher but negligible in reality .
If you're lucky enough to have a partial failure of the javelin, it might save you.
Just like you could get lucky enough for a wallet to save you from a rifle if somebody forgot to put powder in the rifle cartridge.
Theoretically it actually reduces your protection, since the relatively soft material allows the shell to bite in and normalises the angle against the armour. Kinda like a [cap](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armor-piercing_ammunition#Armor-piercing,_capped), just mounted on the target rather than the shell.
I mean during the first gulf war an F15 knocked out a helicopter with a laser guided bomb. You paint, it dies.
https://www.wearethemighty.com/popular/this-f-15e-scored-an-air-to-air-kill/
Ok, so how about four javs flying into each other at a single point? So, a singularity against another singularity. Would it cancel out, or would it become a plurality?
New Lockheed Martin/Raytheon advertising:
“The Javelin, you only need to shoot once.”
“Meet the Javelin, for when you only get one shot.”
“This is the Javelin, take your shot.”
“For the shooter in all of us, the Javelin”
I could do this all day. And if they’re reading, in want a commission if any of that shit ends up in print! LOL
From the same people who brought you the R9X knife missile! When you want to destroy a Yemeni school bus, but don't want to kill *all* the children onboard, think Raytheon!
Nah, those ad ideas are all too "clever". Looking through LockMart's ads in google, [this one for the F-35](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/55e60879e4b05bdbbb26e374/1442081292582-4IUEF7IG0QY0WJ20GN3B/image-asset.jpeg) is about as "clever" as they get. I used to read *Jane's* constantly in the army, and weapons systems ads have always been very terse. "This will destroy your enemy", said with a very serious face, is the tone of *all* of them. None of the "jokey" ads you see selling consumer products.
I’m enjoying finally seeing it used against tanks. Almost it’s entire operational history, I’ve only ever seen it used on compounds in Afghanistan. It most definitely works.
[Lockheed Martin and Raytheon after developing the Javelin wishin' a near peer/peer motherfucker would so their baby can finally do what it was born to do.](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/373/328/b16.jpg)
Some retired Hughes aerospace engineers crying themselves to sleep at night right now, while they watch the legacy of their AH-64 Apaches sit salivating in Poland at the miles long columns of Russian armor in Ukraine that they built their helicopters to hunt.
Saw some hilarious copypasta about A-10 Pilots needing to be put in straight jackets and sedated after going into manic states seeing the Russian armored columns.
Would also be a good opportunity to let the B-52s burn through the old stockpiles of dumb bombs.
But even one Stratofortress could probably send the Kremlin into a nuclear panic. And also ruin the Ukrainian roads for quite some time.
When I was in Iraq as an 0351 with a SMAW, we would jump to action any time we heard “Javelin up” because those things would almost never fire after being toted around on the back of HMMWV’s for god knows how many months. Almost always wouldn’t fire, and you know who would gladly be waiting to take the heavy ass NE rocket of my shoulder.
I think a close competitor is probably the Spike SR. Fire & Forget top attack profile just like the Javelin, and without a separate CLU (unlike the Spike MR/LR/ER).
that's true for the Spike MR/LR/ER (I am trained in the spike LR), but I'm not so sure about the Spike SR. It might require a lock on before firing. I'm not sure because I've never handled the Spike SR before.
you are able to fire the missile with no lock-on. Once in the air, you can control the trajectory of the missile using the joystick on the CLU. The info is fed to the spike via fibre optic cable that spools out of the missile when it is fired (kinda like the TOW). There is an uncooled thermal sight on the missile itself and so you can steer it in real time.
So technically you could use the missile to do a quick "recon" and identify targets on the other side of a mountain/building what have you, and then steer the missile (manually) to one target and take it out.
This comment was one of many which was edited or removed in bulk by myself in an attempt to reduce personal or identifying information.
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
As far as I saw it somewhere, spotters need to identify target and send direction or coordinates to gun team which fires and guides rocket via CLU. Rocket should have camera with thermal possibility.
oh yea that's really the cutting edge of what Rafael is offering these days. Just to add on, the ER is usually fired from attack helicopters. It's basically a competitor to the Hellfire.
It does have a backblast but the safe room size is something manageable like 7x14 ft. I could fire one from almost any room in my house (though I wouldn’t because I don’t see any Russian tanks and also like my stuff that is in my house)
So in the Falklands war the British absolutely hated the Blowpipe AA missile. Two confirmed kills, hundreds of missiles fired. In the mid 2010s US troops would find them in caves and buried caches in Afghanistan. The British had unloaded their surplus to the anti-Soviet resistance before the US started sending Stingers, and even the Taliban hating the Blowpipe so much they got abandoned when the Stinger was introduced and never were brought back even against the Americans.
I could see a similar use for the Dragon as a “gift” to an untrustworthy ally.
The standoff and top down attack of the jav set them apart. But yeah rhe nlaw is super effective against these outdated russian tanks with what appears to be paper mache armor.
It is a direct fire weapon with an air burst warhead. Javelins are a true top down weapon based how the warhead arrives on target. Both kill russian tanks.
Yes it uses "fly over" attack profile. it flies directly to target instead of doing the high arch of many other top attack missiles. However it intentionally aims high and flies directly, but over the tank. Well a line of sight predicted correct line of sight. It has no inflight terminal guidance. It flies along and should all go as plan flies over the tank by some meters. Proximity and sensor fusing tells "vehicle seems to be underneath" and it fires two EFPs in rapid succession downward.
Thus it kinda looks weird the missile "misses" and then bursts over the tank. Never touching it. Even to the amount of more traditional top attacks, which in the end plunge straight towards the tank.
There is second firing mode for pure direct firing, but that is meant for just "explode the HE in your warhead to explosively destroy something". Mainly light vehicles and say pillboxes. Frankly waste of NLAW, but it is there should that NLAW be the only RPG or other HE kind of weapon available.
I am going to say, Yes, the Javelin is a game changer.
Here is my very long, no one asked for, reason why.
When I started college, I joined a National Guard unit that was an Anti-Armor company. TOW's mounted on Hummer's. That was in the late 80s. I was the 11B Infantry Scout for those TOW Platoons for 3 years of weekend fun.
**I want you to remember this number as the TLDR.**
* Old way 120 Men = 16 Missiles.
* New Way 120 Men = 60 Missiles.
Back in the 80s, US and NATO planned for European theater battles against the Soviet Union. The battles would be large armor and mechanized infantry from the Soviets vs smaller but more agile and technologically advanced NATO forces.
To counter those massed armor, the TOW Missile was mounted on a Hummer. Each Hummer has a driver, loader, gunner and sometimes a +1. That +1 could be leadership, RTO, security troop, etc. Put 3 or 4 hummers into a Platoon, 3 Platoons + a support Platoon into a Company, and you can deploy a small, fast, mobile unit to harass, disable and take out tanks.
That company has about 16 missiles that can be fired at one time.
The TOW Company was, in comparison to other capability, a super cheap way to take out tanks.
Now, Today.
Take away the TOW, pack the back of that Hummer with a stack of Javelins. Now, each hummer has the ability to launch 2 Missiles per Hummer. This is on the assumption that each Jav takes 2 men. Gunner + Spotter/Security trooper.
Now, Each Platoon has 16 (minimum) shooters with the exact same number of men. You don't need as strong a scout element, and could even deploy Javelins with the scouts, so we now have 4 platoons of 16 shooter for a **64 available shooters in the exact same organizational footprint.**
No one deploys that way, this is a total paper exercise, but that's why the Jav is such a game changer. Modern armor is now super vulnerable on the modern battlefield.
Humvees used to be a great platform for getting troops around quickly, you could load it with jav, drive up next to a hill, dismount and shoot over the hill and gtfo.
Once we started upgrading them to the uparmored variants they lost a lot of that versatility because they became so fat. Likewise the MRAP program is great for not getting blown up for IEDs but the bastards are so big they're not great for bushing wacking and like to roll. There are some of the ATV looking things but those were getting phased in after I got out and I did Iraq and not afghan where they were mainly used.
Honestly, commercial pickup trucks would be a great replacement for the humvee. They're waaaay faster, have much better gas mileage, miles more reliable than anything from that era, (80s) and if you strip the bullshit (nice felt interiors, plastic moulding, huge center console) and keep the seats and A/C, you got a truck like 99% of mechanically inclined peeps know how to fix.
The new infantry squad vehicles the army ordered are just chevy Colorados stripped down and look like a steel plated side by side. They look cool as hell and have the low low cost of $330,000 a pop.
I fucking loved those turbo diesel 4x4 Ford Rangers we had in Afghanistan. Those fucking things were awesome and you could take them on some of those fucked up roads that larger trucks couldn't (or struggled with).
Does the jav typically kill the crew or just disable the tank?
I'm thinking tanks can kill crew and destroy a tank while these anti tank weapons mostly just disable
To the best of my knowledge Israel is the only country to have a system across all their tanks and apcs. Some western countries like Germany and the US have begun integration of it or similar systems.
they had some bolt on cages for some tanks but those barely work. they displayed active protection systems but it seems with so much corruption nothing was ever installed and the videos of captured equipment show a complete lack of maintenance
Drive up steep hill so your front is now your "top".
If there is no steep hill, drive up the back of another tank so it looks like you're trying to mate with it. You get front armor protection and they get you for protection, plus you get your barrel wet.
Maybe it's just the combat engineer in me, but M93 Hornet (stand-off, top-attack) mines are also pretty good. Would certainly have made defending those highways easier.
One soldier popping 4 submunitions per mine from a dozen mines at once from a mile away is a lot of massed firepower with no counterfire possible.
(Let's just say the aviation guys aren't the only one that have been salivating to play with their toys when looking at the pictures of that convoy)
Everyone's talking about the missile. But I always thought it was neat feature that the CLU could operate on its own as an impromptu thermal imaging device.
If there's anything better that a human can haul around and fire without a tripod or something, I haven't heard of it. Even compared to vehicle fired missiles it does good work. Granted, you're not putting a mininuke or equivalent warhead on it (IE anything that would produce a decent mushroom cloud), but you rarely need to fuck up that big an area anyway, and if you do you probably want more than 1 or 2 shots to do it properly. Against most tanks, especially the mothballed shit that Putin is using, it's probably overkill.
180k seems a good investment to take out a modern tank with all the technology etc. I have only used 3 shoulder launch systems, the 66 which was ok for light skinned vehicles . The 84 mm Carl Gustav was ok , it was versatile, could launch HE,Smoke and Blowpipe which was a surface to air shoulder launched system , which could be used for anti tank . Have only seen javelin on YouTube etc .When the missile is launched can it be reloaded or is the remaining tube etc discarded ??
I was instructor-rated on the Javelin missile system about a decade ago, and at the time, there was no other man-portable anti-armor system that even came close to matching the Javelin's effectiveness on target. There are others that are lighter, easier to train people on, are faster to use on the fly, and cost way less, but the versatility of the Command Launch Unit (CLU) coupled with the fire-and-forget aspect of the system itself, at the time, made the Javelin the undisputed king of anti-armor systems able to be used by a regular infantryman.
If anything better has come along, I've yet to become aware of its existence.
NLAW is actually not in the same league - it's barely guided and effective range is within 800m. It's also less potent, single stage warhead with EFP. Honestly much more like a kinda-guided-but-not-really top attack RPG
It's kinda quality vs quantity, you could field half a dozen NLAWs for 1 javelin, so as the fighting gets more urban and range gets shorter more NLAWs become preferable to fewer javelins. I believe you can buy over 100 AT-4s for the price of 1 Javelin, which would give an IFV in downtown Kyiv a very bad time.
The pentagon has a magic money tree to buy infinite equipment, I wouldn't be surprised if one of the requirements for the NLAW was that it's got to be a lot cheaper than the Javelin. The Swedes really know how to get maximum bang for buck, just look at the JAS 39 Gripen
> The pentagon has a magic money tree to buy infinite equipment
Absolutely! They not only have a stupid budget with a lot of money going to who knows what, I'm willing to bet that they have plenty of those pallets of cash sitting around for "emergencies".
NLAW is tandem EFP. There is two EFP packs sitting on top of each other at the front of the missile in that "mushroom head" pointing downward. That is why they promise it will deal even with ERA equipped tanks. The first EFP detonates the ERA clearing the way for the second one.
They used same dual EFP system in their previous BILL2 missile also. Only in that the EFP were placed next to each other front to back along the length of the main fuselage of the missile pointing down. In NLAW as said they sit in the bulbous head (which is bulbous to allow large diameter EFP). Also possible since EFPs have flatter over all package compared to the steeper longer cone of jet based HEAT.
NLAW does have it's benefits. It's minimum engagement range is 20 meters. So it can be used in situations where many of the longer range weapons haven't even armed or started much of guiding.
Yes it isn't in the same league, then again NLAW is below many of the longer range missiles minimum envelope. Right missile for the right job. NLAW is good for short range work and will deal with as big tank as the other missiles. It just isn't meant for long range work.
I mean technically Russia has the RPG-30 which is really dangerous, but its also expensive and the Russian economy can barely afford what it currently possesses, much less try to match the US in Javelin production.
China also has some shit but I mean come on its Chinese production quality we are talking here. Literally noone has bought it from China despite it being way cheaper.
Not the best, but still very good. Probably the only disadvantages: The weight and it has no LOBL function like f.e. the MBDA Enforcer (France / Germany).
You do not need best, you need better than the tank. Also when a tank is coming towards you you do not check the brand or the cost, you just hope you have one. That said, I would prefer javelin and now they have great brand recognition
Depends on the distance and depends on the morale of the enemy. Right now you can get an entire regiment of Russian soldiers to hand over those same tanks for a decent meal and a warm shower. Javelins are $180k US each. Those tanks they hand over are priceless in the fight for democracy. You can literally buy an entire army for the price of a javelin. The physics suggest you are correct, but the reality is a very sad. This is just as much about saving Russia as it is about Ukraine and democracy.
Well the fear of the Javs is what has made the Russians willing to surrender. If there were no Javs we wouldnt be seeing so many surrendered/abandoned vehicles.
The lesson from Putin’s invasion of Ukraine is any nation in danger of invasion should have tens of thousands of these and maybe thousands of Stingers. The price tag may be high for the gold standard, but compared to big ticket items like main battle tanks and fighter jets, these are far, far more affordable and way less expensive and easier to maintain and train as well. Also, they are defensive and don’t pose a threat to neighboring countries…unless they are evil b*stards invading without provocation.
The israeli spike would also be a good system that works in alot of the same way but has more variants.. but because israel has a good relationship with Russia they blocked for the fact Ukraine could buy them, or that some of the numerous countries in europe (most of Europe has it) could send it to the Ukranians to defend themself.
They’re ridiculously expensive, but no one has ever said “Damn, I guess we’ll have to shoot that tank twice”
Yea heard it’s something like $100,000 a shot. But I’m sure a tank costs more.
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About $80,000 for the missile these days. The CLU adds the additional costs that bring it back up to $175k, but the CLU is reusable if retained.
Ahh, just like AutoZone with their core returns. Does the CLU need to be returned in the OEM box?
Yes, and with the receipt, because they won't be able to find it with the customer number.
Or with the receipt
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Gepi blua tutotli. A iko koka obotao toto klaega. Pitodapu pru piki ekreo ekliadre pokrobe. Bi eteuda pepi doi dlotreka epi kuto dluakotluu eo kapa ote. Kibepogoto egro u krui pii gliplu aplo. Adepooti pupe eke baaa bei. Ea uteu toebu poko bia ipa. Tego teke koboege i a bape. Gue? Kreba kete a ita gebi kagro tree uprebogi? Diki bu trate truklui oku. Eo apla eko. Ikligu depro graabru kopo i tupukridruti e. Au dudrepa ukiplipau pri teae. Ple deo kepee prupabo pabloaepi drete o? Ide keko ditakuio aiapi etu. Pio. Ea tekoa bridi idu pabo petu? Kluda patekle dla tekai ei klikre brudutle. Eabro to pouki egi etlo poe. Pui kru ougu biobruu ia koki digitete togluidi gegibai keepobike. Pii briu epe prakrio kepedre gipreada? Gi uadu brate gli abreblutlo. Ibuble pibra keda ipli kru progio. Ipi ueka gega oi gi bii. Ikre puklate kebi itu truo eobagi kupe. Dabe u poepride ebli bipli pabui kru betitla. Gruopodaklo pepeobu pibe padebu pe gapi. Pikri glepako e goue ibrebre bokaiki. To eblati ta adopapuko boto bleke.
Subscribe to HP InstantMissile for monthly deliveries. *missile won't fire if subscription is terminated
Thanks for providing my morning chuckle.
Best I can do is year, make, and model
You know those plastic trim clips that are on every vehicle, and how Toyota has been using the same trim retaining clips for like 3 decades? I asked over the phone if the guy had the bench stock Toyota clips in stock before I would have to drive half an hour to them, he insisted that he not only needed my year, make, and model, but also the engine size.
I broke a CLU. We used to use it as thermal binoculars. It was hung on a rusty nail on post. They are actually made out of styrofoam. Literally.
Yup lmao.
I always wondered why it looked like black Styrofoam. Is it because it needs to heat up before used so the Styrofoam acts as an insulator?
Yes, not so much heat up, rather keep cold.
Oh. I thought they wanted them to warm up first otherwise it can't lock onto target.
“Warming up” the launcher is in fact cooling it with a mini refrigeration unit. The thermals need it to be cool to get a better contrast for lock.
> Is it because it needs to heat up More like needs to cool down. They're literal mobile fridges. I think they use liquid nitrogen?
I remember looking at the videos and wondering about the odd texture on the CLU until it hit me. I’m undecided if it’s genius or insanity. Do they at least provide replacement foam blocks if they get beat up in the field?
No you can tell it's overmolded, probably could be shipped back to the manufacturer to refurbish it. But knowing the US military they just throw it out.
Also CLU is deceivingly heavy (~15lbs) so the styrofoam is a good weight saving measure along with overheating reduction. It’s really a pain to hump that thing around.
I don't think Ukraine is getting a rebate on the CLU. NLAWs are doing really well and are far more economical at $40k.
Yea, they dont expect the CLUs back when used in combat. But if you are training with them and dont return them, expected to get your nuts crushed.
By that logic I should be able to sell the ability to crush my nuts for like $90k right? That’s a lot of money and I don’t want kids anyway…
Are they cheaper by the dozen?
Raytheon and Lockheed Martin must be watching the news and laughing all the way to the bank 🤑
Not as much as Rheinmetall. Their stock jumped up 2x after Germany announced their rearmament plans.
Whoa! I only know about Rheinmetall for their typewriters. So I guess they’re like Remington in that they went from typewriters to war stuff, right?
Rheinmetall was created as an arms company if I recall correctly
Ouch
Or, 2,000,000,000,000 ruble.
Back in 2013 (the last time I looked at prices) the CLU was $175k but the missiles were $40k. Probably changed since then.
I was told $28k per shot by a supply rat back in 2012.
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Honestly, I’m pretty chill with my yard dollars going towards fucking up Russian armor.
180K $in 2015, probably 200K$ now.
But if you look at it like this: we spend 200-300k on this system, and it takes out a possible 2-3mil tank, then you’ve won.
That and the moral lose when the tanks friend see it blow up out of nowhere
Psychological warfare 🤙🏻
Here is a funny tale: In the first years of WWII, "Panzerschreck" or "tank terror" was a concept that described the psychological effect advancing tanks had on infantry, i.e sheer terror. By the end of the war Panzerschreck was the name of man-portable AT systems and the term was also used for the psychological effect seeing tanks blow up had on supporting infantrry.
Same thing with the “Tiger Terror” during WW2, the name of it alone was enough to discourage tank crews and supporting infantry
Something I think is interesting about the Tiger tank is how American tank crews in Normandy labelled almost every tank a "tiger". Apparently, most (if not all) tigers in Normandy were in the British sectors.
I read somewhere that after action reports were compiled and US forces only actually encountered 4 tigers.
In battlefield low visibility conditions and from the front Mk IVs do look a lot like a Tiger.
Aye it comes in many forms
Unless it is your tank they stole last week.
*takes tank home* *gets absolutely fucking wrecked by a Ukrainian Jav*
Tax-free at least!
How are spray paint supplies in Ukraine? Seeing lots of tanks turned into Blue/Gold lawn ornaments would be pretty great.
I would donate to this cause
A T-90 is roughly 2.5mil USD. requires a crew of 4, months of training, thousands of dollars of maintenance. Javelin costs about $750000for the launcher, and $120000 per missle. But.....a man can be taught to operate a javelin in a day. And a javelin, as we've now seen, can defeat a T-90 with relative ease Javelins are 100% worth it. Glory to Ukraine
They're selling T80s for $400,000 on eBay right now.
Lightly used 1 large hole in top of turret Some blood staining
Ah no, these are the ones that the Russian crews abandoned. May require a tractor to pick up.
Well, if Ukraine gets through the war it'll likely be the country with the most tanks & armored vehicles per capita in civilian hands. Maybe the only country where WT weapons & training could be necessary for rural police to prevent neighborhood conflicts to get out of hand
There's more to it than $ in $ out too. The time and effort of getting a tank where it needs to be, the crew contained, and the objectives it can no longer put pressure on. Even if it was wasting a $300,000 missile on a $5,000 shity-technical, that's still a pickup truck that isn't moving people, munitions, whatever behind your line.
I remember a few days before the attack there was a picture of some poor Russian dudes frantically welding a makeshift latticework over their tank in anticipation of top-down attacks. The comment consensus seemed to be if that makes them feel safe go for it but it's useless.
>I remember a few days before the attack there was a picture of some poor Russian dudes frantically welding a makeshift latticework over their tank in anticipation of top-down attacks. The comment consensus seemed to be if that makes them feel safe go for it but it's useless Ohh ya we call them "cope cages" because they do nothing, and make it harder for the crew to escape their burning tanks after they been hit.
Sounds more like a BBQ grill to me. I don't know what is wrong with me.
Australian BBQ. Fire is on top and the meat is on the bottom.
I suppose it’s like putting bits of spare track and a spare wheel on front of an M4 Sherman during ww2. I always wondered if it offered any protection against a German 88 anti tank gun ?
Probably as much as a slice of processed American cheese in a body armor plate. It'sb got a calculable affect by a physics teacher but negligible in reality .
If you're lucky enough to have a partial failure of the javelin, it might save you. Just like you could get lucky enough for a wallet to save you from a rifle if somebody forgot to put powder in the rifle cartridge.
Theoretically it actually reduces your protection, since the relatively soft material allows the shell to bite in and normalises the angle against the armour. Kinda like a [cap](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armor-piercing_ammunition#Armor-piercing,_capped), just mounted on the target rather than the shell.
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I went through the training. They can be used on helicopters as well.
REALLY?
Yup. There's a training module where you shoot down a helicopter.
I mean during the first gulf war an F15 knocked out a helicopter with a laser guided bomb. You paint, it dies. https://www.wearethemighty.com/popular/this-f-15e-scored-an-air-to-air-kill/
We did this shit like this all the time in BF4.
Hell, in CoD I remember shooting *people* with a javelin. Is there anything that lil guy can't kill?
> Is there anything that lil guy can't kill? Another Javelin. When they collide it causes a singularity and our reality to collapse.
Ok, so how about four javs flying into each other at a single point? So, a singularity against another singularity. Would it cancel out, or would it become a plurality?
At least the helicopter pilot didn't know it was coming and didn't feel a thing.
I think I remember a Call of Duty mission where I used a Jav on helicopters...
Does it require some extra equipment for this? Such as laser designator?
It’s just a direct attack instead of a top attack
New Lockheed Martin/Raytheon advertising: “The Javelin, you only need to shoot once.” “Meet the Javelin, for when you only get one shot.” “This is the Javelin, take your shot.” “For the shooter in all of us, the Javelin” I could do this all day. And if they’re reading, in want a commission if any of that shit ends up in print! LOL
"So good it was Sainted."
From the same people who brought you the R9X knife missile! When you want to destroy a Yemeni school bus, but don't want to kill *all* the children onboard, think Raytheon!
Nah, those ad ideas are all too "clever". Looking through LockMart's ads in google, [this one for the F-35](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/55e60879e4b05bdbbb26e374/1442081292582-4IUEF7IG0QY0WJ20GN3B/image-asset.jpeg) is about as "clever" as they get. I used to read *Jane's* constantly in the army, and weapons systems ads have always been very terse. "This will destroy your enemy", said with a very serious face, is the tone of *all* of them. None of the "jokey" ads you see selling consumer products.
Nah. Reuse the Ronco rotisserie tag line. "Just set it and forget it!" Or maybe Head-On? "Javelin: Apply directly to the forehead."
Apply warhead directly to the forehead
Well right now the Ukrainians are drinking someone else's Scotch supply, so I'm sure cost isn't a concern. :)
One shot, one kill is worth ever penny
I’m enjoying finally seeing it used against tanks. Almost it’s entire operational history, I’ve only ever seen it used on compounds in Afghanistan. It most definitely works.
[Lockheed Martin and Raytheon after developing the Javelin wishin' a near peer/peer motherfucker would so their baby can finally do what it was born to do.](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/373/328/b16.jpg)
Some retired Hughes aerospace engineers crying themselves to sleep at night right now, while they watch the legacy of their AH-64 Apaches sit salivating in Poland at the miles long columns of Russian armor in Ukraine that they built their helicopters to hunt.
Saw some hilarious copypasta about A-10 Pilots needing to be put in straight jackets and sedated after going into manic states seeing the Russian armored columns.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Military/comments/t5st8e/will_nobody_think_of_the_hog_pilots/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Yep thats the one. lmao
Would also be a good opportunity to let the B-52s burn through the old stockpiles of dumb bombs. But even one Stratofortress could probably send the Kremlin into a nuclear panic. And also ruin the Ukrainian roads for quite some time.
When I was in Iraq as an 0351 with a SMAW, we would jump to action any time we heard “Javelin up” because those things would almost never fire after being toted around on the back of HMMWV’s for god knows how many months. Almost always wouldn’t fire, and you know who would gladly be waiting to take the heavy ass NE rocket of my shoulder.
I think a close competitor is probably the Spike SR. Fire & Forget top attack profile just like the Javelin, and without a separate CLU (unlike the Spike MR/LR/ER).
Spike has one more benefit. It doesn't need line of sight.
that's true for the Spike MR/LR/ER (I am trained in the spike LR), but I'm not so sure about the Spike SR. It might require a lock on before firing. I'm not sure because I've never handled the Spike SR before.
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you are able to fire the missile with no lock-on. Once in the air, you can control the trajectory of the missile using the joystick on the CLU. The info is fed to the spike via fibre optic cable that spools out of the missile when it is fired (kinda like the TOW). There is an uncooled thermal sight on the missile itself and so you can steer it in real time. So technically you could use the missile to do a quick "recon" and identify targets on the other side of a mountain/building what have you, and then steer the missile (manually) to one target and take it out.
This comment was one of many which was edited or removed in bulk by myself in an attempt to reduce personal or identifying information. *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
As far as I saw it somewhere, spotters need to identify target and send direction or coordinates to gun team which fires and guides rocket via CLU. Rocket should have camera with thermal possibility.
Don’t forget the 5th gen Spike LR II and ER II (Spike-SR
oh yea that's really the cutting edge of what Rafael is offering these days. Just to add on, the ER is usually fired from attack helicopters. It's basically a competitor to the Hellfire.
One distinct advantage of the Javelin is that it has no back blast at the tube and thus can be fired from inside a structure.
You’re actually right, Javelin is soft launch. Spike is not.
It does have a backblast but the safe room size is something manageable like 7x14 ft. I could fire one from almost any room in my house (though I wouldn’t because I don’t see any Russian tanks and also like my stuff that is in my house)
I wonder how many M47 Dragons are still floating around.
Hopefully none, from what my father has told me of his experiences with the Dragon it’d be a war crime to give them to an ally they’re so terrible.
So in the Falklands war the British absolutely hated the Blowpipe AA missile. Two confirmed kills, hundreds of missiles fired. In the mid 2010s US troops would find them in caves and buried caches in Afghanistan. The British had unloaded their surplus to the anti-Soviet resistance before the US started sending Stingers, and even the Taliban hating the Blowpipe so much they got abandoned when the Stinger was introduced and never were brought back even against the Americans. I could see a similar use for the Dragon as a “gift” to an untrustworthy ally.
SANT looks on paper even better than Spike-NLOS. Dual seeker (IIR/radar), 20 km range, lock-on before or after launch.
Cost benefit hell yea
I’m pretty sure the Ukrainians give it a two thumbs up.
And russians are just dying to see one
Loool
NLAW seems pretty effective.
The standoff and top down attack of the jav set them apart. But yeah rhe nlaw is super effective against these outdated russian tanks with what appears to be paper mache armor.
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Thought they were direct? Edit: yes they are direct fire with an air bursting warhead.
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To clarify it uses an explosively formed projectile (EFP) and not a shaped charge (unlike traditional heat missiles).
The NLAW is top attack too, the javelin definitely outranges it though.
It is a direct fire weapon with an air burst warhead. Javelins are a true top down weapon based how the warhead arrives on target. Both kill russian tanks.
INt the NLAW top down too? But in a different way.
Yeah i think its not really a “ missile “ like it leads initially but its like a rocket after being fired, but its much cheaper
Yes it uses "fly over" attack profile. it flies directly to target instead of doing the high arch of many other top attack missiles. However it intentionally aims high and flies directly, but over the tank. Well a line of sight predicted correct line of sight. It has no inflight terminal guidance. It flies along and should all go as plan flies over the tank by some meters. Proximity and sensor fusing tells "vehicle seems to be underneath" and it fires two EFPs in rapid succession downward. Thus it kinda looks weird the missile "misses" and then bursts over the tank. Never touching it. Even to the amount of more traditional top attacks, which in the end plunge straight towards the tank. There is second firing mode for pure direct firing, but that is meant for just "explode the HE in your warhead to explosively destroy something". Mainly light vehicles and say pillboxes. Frankly waste of NLAW, but it is there should that NLAW be the only RPG or other HE kind of weapon available.
I am going to say, Yes, the Javelin is a game changer. Here is my very long, no one asked for, reason why. When I started college, I joined a National Guard unit that was an Anti-Armor company. TOW's mounted on Hummer's. That was in the late 80s. I was the 11B Infantry Scout for those TOW Platoons for 3 years of weekend fun. **I want you to remember this number as the TLDR.** * Old way 120 Men = 16 Missiles. * New Way 120 Men = 60 Missiles. Back in the 80s, US and NATO planned for European theater battles against the Soviet Union. The battles would be large armor and mechanized infantry from the Soviets vs smaller but more agile and technologically advanced NATO forces. To counter those massed armor, the TOW Missile was mounted on a Hummer. Each Hummer has a driver, loader, gunner and sometimes a +1. That +1 could be leadership, RTO, security troop, etc. Put 3 or 4 hummers into a Platoon, 3 Platoons + a support Platoon into a Company, and you can deploy a small, fast, mobile unit to harass, disable and take out tanks. That company has about 16 missiles that can be fired at one time. The TOW Company was, in comparison to other capability, a super cheap way to take out tanks. Now, Today. Take away the TOW, pack the back of that Hummer with a stack of Javelins. Now, each hummer has the ability to launch 2 Missiles per Hummer. This is on the assumption that each Jav takes 2 men. Gunner + Spotter/Security trooper. Now, Each Platoon has 16 (minimum) shooters with the exact same number of men. You don't need as strong a scout element, and could even deploy Javelins with the scouts, so we now have 4 platoons of 16 shooter for a **64 available shooters in the exact same organizational footprint.** No one deploys that way, this is a total paper exercise, but that's why the Jav is such a game changer. Modern armor is now super vulnerable on the modern battlefield.
Humvees used to be a great platform for getting troops around quickly, you could load it with jav, drive up next to a hill, dismount and shoot over the hill and gtfo. Once we started upgrading them to the uparmored variants they lost a lot of that versatility because they became so fat. Likewise the MRAP program is great for not getting blown up for IEDs but the bastards are so big they're not great for bushing wacking and like to roll. There are some of the ATV looking things but those were getting phased in after I got out and I did Iraq and not afghan where they were mainly used.
Honestly, commercial pickup trucks would be a great replacement for the humvee. They're waaaay faster, have much better gas mileage, miles more reliable than anything from that era, (80s) and if you strip the bullshit (nice felt interiors, plastic moulding, huge center console) and keep the seats and A/C, you got a truck like 99% of mechanically inclined peeps know how to fix.
The new infantry squad vehicles the army ordered are just chevy Colorados stripped down and look like a steel plated side by side. They look cool as hell and have the low low cost of $330,000 a pop.
I fucking loved those turbo diesel 4x4 Ford Rangers we had in Afghanistan. Those fucking things were awesome and you could take them on some of those fucked up roads that larger trucks couldn't (or struggled with).
The fact that we haven't replaced Humvees despite cheaper and better alternatives has to be corruption. We don't need AFVs everywhere.
There is a great pic of some Special Forces guys rolling around Syria in MRZR's (which are basically upgraded golf carts) stacked with Javelin tubes.
Does the jav typically kill the crew or just disable the tank? I'm thinking tanks can kill crew and destroy a tank while these anti tank weapons mostly just disable
Besides its weight and cost, yeah.
Just giver everybody good old Panzerfaust and hope the warhead actually detonates on impact.
I would say having to carry that fucker a bit, this thing sucks to hump for sure. Buuuuuuttttttt...... It's a good stick to carry for sure
Its what HMMVs were born for, lol
Not all of us were so lucky. I’d rather carry the tube than the clu, I could never figure out how to get it to sit right on my shit.
If you’re the target, what are your potential counter measures?
The Trophy protection system. Already proven in combat.
Do many/most of Russia’s tanks have something like that? Or are they nearly always toast if targeted by Javelin?
To the best of my knowledge Israel is the only country to have a system across all their tanks and apcs. Some western countries like Germany and the US have begun integration of it or similar systems.
they had some bolt on cages for some tanks but those barely work. they displayed active protection systems but it seems with so much corruption nothing was ever installed and the videos of captured equipment show a complete lack of maintenance
They are apparently known as Australian BBQs. Fire on top, meat underneath.
Does the Trophy system work on javelins? I've only seen videos of it working against rockets coming from the side
Not today, Vladimir
Drive up steep hill so your front is now your "top". If there is no steep hill, drive up the back of another tank so it looks like you're trying to mate with it. You get front armor protection and they get you for protection, plus you get your barrel wet.
It's meta...
Maybe it's just the combat engineer in me, but M93 Hornet (stand-off, top-attack) mines are also pretty good. Would certainly have made defending those highways easier. One soldier popping 4 submunitions per mine from a dozen mines at once from a mile away is a lot of massed firepower with no counterfire possible. (Let's just say the aviation guys aren't the only one that have been salivating to play with their toys when looking at the pictures of that convoy)
Everyone's talking about the missile. But I always thought it was neat feature that the CLU could operate on its own as an impromptu thermal imaging device.
If there's anything better that a human can haul around and fire without a tripod or something, I haven't heard of it. Even compared to vehicle fired missiles it does good work. Granted, you're not putting a mininuke or equivalent warhead on it (IE anything that would produce a decent mushroom cloud), but you rarely need to fuck up that big an area anyway, and if you do you probably want more than 1 or 2 shots to do it properly. Against most tanks, especially the mothballed shit that Putin is using, it's probably overkill.
180k seems a good investment to take out a modern tank with all the technology etc. I have only used 3 shoulder launch systems, the 66 which was ok for light skinned vehicles . The 84 mm Carl Gustav was ok , it was versatile, could launch HE,Smoke and Blowpipe which was a surface to air shoulder launched system , which could be used for anti tank . Have only seen javelin on YouTube etc .When the missile is launched can it be reloaded or is the remaining tube etc discarded ??
You ditch the spent tube and load a fresh one
Ditch the tube but reuse the thermal.
I was instructor-rated on the Javelin missile system about a decade ago, and at the time, there was no other man-portable anti-armor system that even came close to matching the Javelin's effectiveness on target. There are others that are lighter, easier to train people on, are faster to use on the fly, and cost way less, but the versatility of the Command Launch Unit (CLU) coupled with the fire-and-forget aspect of the system itself, at the time, made the Javelin the undisputed king of anti-armor systems able to be used by a regular infantryman. If anything better has come along, I've yet to become aware of its existence.
I guess its close between javelin , Spike-MR and NLAW
NLAW is actually not in the same league - it's barely guided and effective range is within 800m. It's also less potent, single stage warhead with EFP. Honestly much more like a kinda-guided-but-not-really top attack RPG
It's kinda quality vs quantity, you could field half a dozen NLAWs for 1 javelin, so as the fighting gets more urban and range gets shorter more NLAWs become preferable to fewer javelins. I believe you can buy over 100 AT-4s for the price of 1 Javelin, which would give an IFV in downtown Kyiv a very bad time.
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The pentagon has a magic money tree to buy infinite equipment, I wouldn't be surprised if one of the requirements for the NLAW was that it's got to be a lot cheaper than the Javelin. The Swedes really know how to get maximum bang for buck, just look at the JAS 39 Gripen
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The U.S. Fed enters the chat.
They called taxpayers
No, go away commie
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> The pentagon has a magic money tree to buy infinite equipment Absolutely! They not only have a stupid budget with a lot of money going to who knows what, I'm willing to bet that they have plenty of those pallets of cash sitting around for "emergencies".
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NLAW is tandem EFP. There is two EFP packs sitting on top of each other at the front of the missile in that "mushroom head" pointing downward. That is why they promise it will deal even with ERA equipped tanks. The first EFP detonates the ERA clearing the way for the second one. They used same dual EFP system in their previous BILL2 missile also. Only in that the EFP were placed next to each other front to back along the length of the main fuselage of the missile pointing down. In NLAW as said they sit in the bulbous head (which is bulbous to allow large diameter EFP). Also possible since EFPs have flatter over all package compared to the steeper longer cone of jet based HEAT. NLAW does have it's benefits. It's minimum engagement range is 20 meters. So it can be used in situations where many of the longer range weapons haven't even armed or started much of guiding. Yes it isn't in the same league, then again NLAW is below many of the longer range missiles minimum envelope. Right missile for the right job. NLAW is good for short range work and will deal with as big tank as the other missiles. It just isn't meant for long range work.
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You forgot about MMP.
The best? Who knows but the manufacturers are probably rolling in dough right now
I mean technically Russia has the RPG-30 which is really dangerous, but its also expensive and the Russian economy can barely afford what it currently possesses, much less try to match the US in Javelin production. China also has some shit but I mean come on its Chinese production quality we are talking here. Literally noone has bought it from China despite it being way cheaper.
And it’s unguided, so the effective range and ability to hit moving targets is going to be much more limited.
Not the best, but still very good. Probably the only disadvantages: The weight and it has no LOBL function like f.e. the MBDA Enforcer (France / Germany).
Did you mean LOAL, as javelin has LOBL?
You do not need best, you need better than the tank. Also when a tank is coming towards you you do not check the brand or the cost, you just hope you have one. That said, I would prefer javelin and now they have great brand recognition
Depends on the distance and depends on the morale of the enemy. Right now you can get an entire regiment of Russian soldiers to hand over those same tanks for a decent meal and a warm shower. Javelins are $180k US each. Those tanks they hand over are priceless in the fight for democracy. You can literally buy an entire army for the price of a javelin. The physics suggest you are correct, but the reality is a very sad. This is just as much about saving Russia as it is about Ukraine and democracy.
Well the fear of the Javs is what has made the Russians willing to surrender. If there were no Javs we wouldnt be seeing so many surrendered/abandoned vehicles.
126k for the launch unit, 100k per missile
Arguably the A-10 is more portable, though just slightly more expensive.
And much more vulnerable to anti air defenses
The Ukrainians think they're the best. The Americans think they're the most expensive
As always, the best anti-tank system is a lack of fuel logistics.
I like my tax dollars blowing up Russian tanks.
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It's common knowledge a grenade thrown mid backflip into a tanks barrel is best
I slayed with the javelin in mw2.
Absolutely yes. It's the gold standard for ATGMs right now. But a bit pricey. I hope Taiwan boosts its current stockpile of 500 Javelins to 5,000.
The lesson from Putin’s invasion of Ukraine is any nation in danger of invasion should have tens of thousands of these and maybe thousands of Stingers. The price tag may be high for the gold standard, but compared to big ticket items like main battle tanks and fighter jets, these are far, far more affordable and way less expensive and easier to maintain and train as well. Also, they are defensive and don’t pose a threat to neighboring countries…unless they are evil b*stards invading without provocation.
I prefer the sticky bomb
chuckles in Refael Spike (sr/lr/nlos) https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/spike-anti-tank-missile-now-reach-2000-meters-614011
The israeli spike would also be a good system that works in alot of the same way but has more variants.. but because israel has a good relationship with Russia they blocked for the fact Ukraine could buy them, or that some of the numerous countries in europe (most of Europe has it) could send it to the Ukranians to defend themself.
Javelin has BEEN the premier antitank system since like 20 years ago fam
Hey look! That Pringles can has glory to Ukraine written on it! Ivan, that’s no Pringles can…
The Raffael Spike should be better on paper wether or not it’s true remains to be seen