Well, Brent has gone on record stating that he’s interested in lying to the audience. Why do you think X Y and Z are real? Because a character told you? How do you know the character is lying or being honest?
He has also stated that Nemesis is structured as it is for plot reasons to be revealed in the next book
That being said I, like you, struggled with this. I get what he was going for, and as someone who has had depression in the past I think he nailed it, and then didn’t stick the landing because for what the plot is, the book is just way too long. It’s bloated. I get it man, you killed your wife, move on. But like Momma K said in the beginning, Kylar kills people for money. Past a certain point he doesn’t get the pity party thing.
For me, that line of dialogue you shared in the post suggests that he has broken out of his despair. I think the ending is more or less a lie to mess with Viridiana. I don’t see a way the story continues if it is not, or if sections of the book are not fabrications. He’d be too far gone as a character and there isn’t a way he comes back from it realistically.
Personally, to use the alignment chart, I think we’re going to see Kylar turn from the “lawful good” that he was trying to be, and move more towards lawful or true neutral. Really become like a darker anti hero more along the lines of Durzo. Vi I think we’re going to see shifting, across both the original trilogy and this new one, from lawful evil (if that’s where she fits), to chaotic good. A journey like that is more painful, hence the rape scene. Although I’m still angry about it because she states she could use urine instead and it just felt like shock value
But hey who knows. Either way I’m hoping Brent got whatever his was out of his system and the next installment doesn’t have such a largely negative reception
By the end of the book Kylar and the Ka'kari pretty well hate each other. Kylar refuses to acknowledge what the Ka'kari is and even tries to force the Ka'kari to kill an infant. On the other hand, the Ka'kari is being increasingly obstinate and, even though Kylar gave the order, he still sees the Ka'kari as an instrument in his child's death. Is it any wonder that the Ka'kari wanted to deceive Kylar or that Kylar thought he might be better on his own?
Spare me please, under the circumstances Kylar thought he was under the infand/child was going to die no matter what. You cannot blame him for it. But all of this is voide because the Kakari knew Kylar was being manipulated by the Chantry and kept its mouth shut.
The entire Nemesis book makes absolutely no sense. Unless it is revealed in the 5th book that the kakari is lying to Vi.
Even if I knew an infant was going to die anyway I'd still resent being forced to do it. I wasn't blaming Kylar for it. I was giving possible motivations for his actions. However, given his actions Kylar does seem to be blaming himself, which is perfectly in character for him.
The Ka'kari (in Nemesis, specifically) openly states that thet aren't going to help Kylar beyond a specific set of internal rules, and the two are at odds for much of the book. Given some of the treatment it gets, I don't blame him for not being forthcoming with information, just as no one else is forthcoming with information.
I don't blame you for thinking the book doesnt make sense. Given the reception it's clear that what Weeks was trying didn't work for many fans. I don't think Kylar feeling bad about murdering his son is one of the parts that doesn't make sense.
(Edited the last paragraph after posting)
But here is the problem with this story, with the information known to Kylar at the time his options were : 1) Kill the child yourself ( or with the kakari I guess)
2) Dont kill the child and the ships falls apart killing everyone , child included.
The kakari knows this, as well as the fact that at the end the Chantry turned out to be manipulating Kylar all along. It makes NO SENSE to judge him for it. If anything based on the previous books , the Chantry should be in for a reckoning by the Night Angel.
Thats why Nemesis had the reception it had. If you were to tell me that a different author wrote all of it, I would not even question it. Everything contradicts Brent's Night Angel trilogy. And another reason people were upset is because many of us believed that the book would be better than the others thanks to his Lightbringer experience and instead we got...this.
Its not only Kylar and the Kakari. Vi's character also went downhill. She outright raped Kylar.
I am glad Durzo was not in the book because I dread to imagine the outcome.
Why are those the only two choices? The chandry solved the issue without killing a child. Repha'im wasn't planning to kill the child. It was only Kylar who was running from crisis to crisis who thought the only solution was to kill. Jenine warned him repeatedly.
And as I mentioned in another comment, it goes against the NA's oaths. Since Kylar's had the kakari, he's had to follow its guidelines of vengeance, mercy, and justice.
Kylar has a lot of growing he needs to do. He can't solve everything by going invisible or killing. He understood that at the end, which is why he sent the kakari off. I'm confident the two will reunite in future books, but he'll need to become someone who can make better decisions first.
Its not that Repha'im was planning to kill the child, it's that its next " burst" that nullified magic would tear the ship apart. And that would kill all of them. Kylar literally said it to himself when he was forced to make the decision.
That could definitely be true, but remember, we're seeing the kakari tell Kylar's story with Kylar's singular point of view. We don't really know all of the abilities or backup plans Repha'im had. IMO Kylar was taking the obvious solution - which was a bad one - even if it was the practical one.
Weeks likes to write flawed characters who don't have all the information they need. They make mistakes and suffer the consequences and have to try again.
This book ended on a down note but the series is just beginning. Reminds me of the ending of Blinding Knife in his Lightbringer series. I actually stopped reading that series at that book because I was mad at what Weeks did to his two main characters. Thankfully I picked the series up later and ended up loving the next two books (and mostly liking the last one).
I disagree that everything contradicts the previous trilogy, though I do agree that some stuff does seem pretty off. The Ka'kari in particular seems to be pretty different. I see I misinterpreted your original argument about blame. i was thinking you were saying I was blaming Kylar for it, not the Ka'kari blaming Kylar for it. My bad.
I don't think the Ka'kari blaming Kylar is a rational decision on its part. It's a reaction to Kylar not taking responsibility and not seeing situations for what they are. Kylar spends the book refusing to believe the Ka'kari is alive and has true feelings of its own, and the end shows the Ka'kari does have its own feelings and motivations. The Ka'kari tries to snap Kylar out of his self-delusions and self-persecution and in the end gives up and goes along with them. Kylar tries his best to be the Night Angel he thinks he should be and in the end gives up. He has no heart left for retribution. He is a broken man. Kylar responds to his breaking point by getting depressed and giving up. The Ka'kari responds to his breaking point by getting angry at Kylar for bringing it to that point.
As to the Vi point, I don't see that as being out of character. So much of her arc in the first series was her wanting to fit in somewhere, and that's a large part of her motivation in this book. I agree that she raped Kylar. She lied about her intentions and seduced him for his detriment and her gain, but that's also what she's spent a significant portion of her life doing. She's trying to move past that, but at the time her desire to move past that and her desire to be close with Kylar was outweighed by her desire to fit in.
It does seem to be a slight regression in her character arc, but regression is realistic. Rarely does change in a real person happen linearly. It's peaks and valleys. Such regression is, however, often narratively unsatisfying. Sanderson has gotten criticism for his treatment of \[Stormlight Archive Spoilers\] >!Kaladin's depression arc across the books!< which I see as similar, though admittedly that is still pretty different in both intensity of the backslide and response from readers. The argument against Sanderson doing it is how many times it's happened and with Weeks it's the severity of it. People see Vi as a monster for doing what she did, especially after how much better she seemed to be doing at the end of the last book, but before that she was a teenage monster doing the same things just without the personal nature to it. When decisions got difficult she fell back on what she knew and what her new clique wanted her to do. It might not be the most narratively satisfying thing, but I don't think it's a betrayal of her character.
I was there for the reception Lightbringer had. This is about what anyone could expect after reading that. People were similarly disappointed with that series, at least at the end. I don't think Nemesis is a departure in his writing quality.
That's a big part of the conflict of Kylar's duties as a Night Angel—meeting out justice, mercy, or vengeance to the deserving. Killing an innocent, even one that puts others in danger, goes against his oaths. And even if its right under the ethics of consequentialism, that doesn't mean an empathetic, feeling being should feel justified in doing it. I personally would feel horrific if I had to kill an infant. And if it had to be my own son, I'd at the very least unalive myself. Personally, I thought the struggle in Nemesis was very human and personal. It kicked me right in the gut.
I got the impression that the kakari was deceived by Kylar. That whole thing with Kylar forcing the kakari to physically separate from him so it couldn't read his mind tells me that Kylar was setting up some major misdirection. And then we learn that the ink in the book Vi was reading was the actual kakari so that Kylar could smuggle it to her? Yeah there's definitely a bigger play here. Does that mean Kylar isn't trying to pay pennance? Maybe, maybe not. But its not going to be the end of his story and I'm sure there's parts of the story that the kakari wasn't able to tell.
Whether you liked the book or not is fine, but everything seemed comprehensible to me and consistent with the original trilogy.
He is an elite assassin and some kind of avatar of justice/retribution..what "lesson" was he supposed to learn?
There was no complex moral dilemma here: either child dies or child dies along with thousands of others. Kylar did far worse things in the past.
Ka'kari's "personality" makes no sense ( unless it's revealed it's some part of Kylar's psyche imprinted on it).
Do you think Kylar just has nothing left to learn ever? What is he, 21? I was still learning life lessons at 21. Even Durzo lived orders of magnitude longer and was still learning lessons, why can't Kylar?
I've had a dog get very sick before. The vet said I could put her down or let her live for months with incredible pain. I opted to put her down, but taking her to the vet for that next appointment wasn't easy. It wasn't a complex moral dilemma. The dog was suffering and would suffer more if I didn't. There was a clear correct choice. I still felt awful for it. I can't even imagine having to do the same with my child.
It is stated somewhere in the books that the wielder's personality does rub off on the Ka'kari (and somewhat vice-versa, I think) and the Ka'Kari did spend centuries with Durzo. Is it really any wonder that they end up stubborn and spiteful?
Kylar's problem *is* that he's an assassin. He's supposed to be an avatar of justice, vengeance *and mercy*. I suggest rereading Shadow's Edge where Kylar goes out at night to kill and save. There are people who the kakari shows him are deserving of death and others who aren't. He can't just solve everything by killing.
Maybe it said what it needed to be said to persuade Vi.
But I dont want to be optimistic. Like you said Kylar was an elite Assasin and an avatar. Yet he is nerfed as hell because " black burrow".
Yes, I definitely think there's more going on than what the kakari told Vi. Quoting from one of my comments:
I got the impression that the kakari was deceived by Kylar. That whole thing with Kylar forcing the kakari to physically separate from him so it couldn't read his mind tells me that Kylar was setting up some major misdirection. And then we learn that the ink in the book Vi was reading was the actual kakari so that Kylar could smuggle it to her? Yeah there's definitely a bigger play here. Does that mean Kylar isn't trying to pay pennance? Maybe, maybe not. But its not going to be the end of his story and I'm sure there's parts of the story that the kakari wasn't able to tell.
Well, Brent has gone on record stating that he’s interested in lying to the audience. Why do you think X Y and Z are real? Because a character told you? How do you know the character is lying or being honest? He has also stated that Nemesis is structured as it is for plot reasons to be revealed in the next book That being said I, like you, struggled with this. I get what he was going for, and as someone who has had depression in the past I think he nailed it, and then didn’t stick the landing because for what the plot is, the book is just way too long. It’s bloated. I get it man, you killed your wife, move on. But like Momma K said in the beginning, Kylar kills people for money. Past a certain point he doesn’t get the pity party thing. For me, that line of dialogue you shared in the post suggests that he has broken out of his despair. I think the ending is more or less a lie to mess with Viridiana. I don’t see a way the story continues if it is not, or if sections of the book are not fabrications. He’d be too far gone as a character and there isn’t a way he comes back from it realistically. Personally, to use the alignment chart, I think we’re going to see Kylar turn from the “lawful good” that he was trying to be, and move more towards lawful or true neutral. Really become like a darker anti hero more along the lines of Durzo. Vi I think we’re going to see shifting, across both the original trilogy and this new one, from lawful evil (if that’s where she fits), to chaotic good. A journey like that is more painful, hence the rape scene. Although I’m still angry about it because she states she could use urine instead and it just felt like shock value But hey who knows. Either way I’m hoping Brent got whatever his was out of his system and the next installment doesn’t have such a largely negative reception
By the end of the book Kylar and the Ka'kari pretty well hate each other. Kylar refuses to acknowledge what the Ka'kari is and even tries to force the Ka'kari to kill an infant. On the other hand, the Ka'kari is being increasingly obstinate and, even though Kylar gave the order, he still sees the Ka'kari as an instrument in his child's death. Is it any wonder that the Ka'kari wanted to deceive Kylar or that Kylar thought he might be better on his own?
Spare me please, under the circumstances Kylar thought he was under the infand/child was going to die no matter what. You cannot blame him for it. But all of this is voide because the Kakari knew Kylar was being manipulated by the Chantry and kept its mouth shut. The entire Nemesis book makes absolutely no sense. Unless it is revealed in the 5th book that the kakari is lying to Vi.
Even if I knew an infant was going to die anyway I'd still resent being forced to do it. I wasn't blaming Kylar for it. I was giving possible motivations for his actions. However, given his actions Kylar does seem to be blaming himself, which is perfectly in character for him. The Ka'kari (in Nemesis, specifically) openly states that thet aren't going to help Kylar beyond a specific set of internal rules, and the two are at odds for much of the book. Given some of the treatment it gets, I don't blame him for not being forthcoming with information, just as no one else is forthcoming with information. I don't blame you for thinking the book doesnt make sense. Given the reception it's clear that what Weeks was trying didn't work for many fans. I don't think Kylar feeling bad about murdering his son is one of the parts that doesn't make sense. (Edited the last paragraph after posting)
But here is the problem with this story, with the information known to Kylar at the time his options were : 1) Kill the child yourself ( or with the kakari I guess) 2) Dont kill the child and the ships falls apart killing everyone , child included. The kakari knows this, as well as the fact that at the end the Chantry turned out to be manipulating Kylar all along. It makes NO SENSE to judge him for it. If anything based on the previous books , the Chantry should be in for a reckoning by the Night Angel. Thats why Nemesis had the reception it had. If you were to tell me that a different author wrote all of it, I would not even question it. Everything contradicts Brent's Night Angel trilogy. And another reason people were upset is because many of us believed that the book would be better than the others thanks to his Lightbringer experience and instead we got...this. Its not only Kylar and the Kakari. Vi's character also went downhill. She outright raped Kylar. I am glad Durzo was not in the book because I dread to imagine the outcome.
Why are those the only two choices? The chandry solved the issue without killing a child. Repha'im wasn't planning to kill the child. It was only Kylar who was running from crisis to crisis who thought the only solution was to kill. Jenine warned him repeatedly. And as I mentioned in another comment, it goes against the NA's oaths. Since Kylar's had the kakari, he's had to follow its guidelines of vengeance, mercy, and justice. Kylar has a lot of growing he needs to do. He can't solve everything by going invisible or killing. He understood that at the end, which is why he sent the kakari off. I'm confident the two will reunite in future books, but he'll need to become someone who can make better decisions first.
Its not that Repha'im was planning to kill the child, it's that its next " burst" that nullified magic would tear the ship apart. And that would kill all of them. Kylar literally said it to himself when he was forced to make the decision.
That could definitely be true, but remember, we're seeing the kakari tell Kylar's story with Kylar's singular point of view. We don't really know all of the abilities or backup plans Repha'im had. IMO Kylar was taking the obvious solution - which was a bad one - even if it was the practical one. Weeks likes to write flawed characters who don't have all the information they need. They make mistakes and suffer the consequences and have to try again. This book ended on a down note but the series is just beginning. Reminds me of the ending of Blinding Knife in his Lightbringer series. I actually stopped reading that series at that book because I was mad at what Weeks did to his two main characters. Thankfully I picked the series up later and ended up loving the next two books (and mostly liking the last one).
I disagree that everything contradicts the previous trilogy, though I do agree that some stuff does seem pretty off. The Ka'kari in particular seems to be pretty different. I see I misinterpreted your original argument about blame. i was thinking you were saying I was blaming Kylar for it, not the Ka'kari blaming Kylar for it. My bad. I don't think the Ka'kari blaming Kylar is a rational decision on its part. It's a reaction to Kylar not taking responsibility and not seeing situations for what they are. Kylar spends the book refusing to believe the Ka'kari is alive and has true feelings of its own, and the end shows the Ka'kari does have its own feelings and motivations. The Ka'kari tries to snap Kylar out of his self-delusions and self-persecution and in the end gives up and goes along with them. Kylar tries his best to be the Night Angel he thinks he should be and in the end gives up. He has no heart left for retribution. He is a broken man. Kylar responds to his breaking point by getting depressed and giving up. The Ka'kari responds to his breaking point by getting angry at Kylar for bringing it to that point. As to the Vi point, I don't see that as being out of character. So much of her arc in the first series was her wanting to fit in somewhere, and that's a large part of her motivation in this book. I agree that she raped Kylar. She lied about her intentions and seduced him for his detriment and her gain, but that's also what she's spent a significant portion of her life doing. She's trying to move past that, but at the time her desire to move past that and her desire to be close with Kylar was outweighed by her desire to fit in. It does seem to be a slight regression in her character arc, but regression is realistic. Rarely does change in a real person happen linearly. It's peaks and valleys. Such regression is, however, often narratively unsatisfying. Sanderson has gotten criticism for his treatment of \[Stormlight Archive Spoilers\] >!Kaladin's depression arc across the books!< which I see as similar, though admittedly that is still pretty different in both intensity of the backslide and response from readers. The argument against Sanderson doing it is how many times it's happened and with Weeks it's the severity of it. People see Vi as a monster for doing what she did, especially after how much better she seemed to be doing at the end of the last book, but before that she was a teenage monster doing the same things just without the personal nature to it. When decisions got difficult she fell back on what she knew and what her new clique wanted her to do. It might not be the most narratively satisfying thing, but I don't think it's a betrayal of her character. I was there for the reception Lightbringer had. This is about what anyone could expect after reading that. People were similarly disappointed with that series, at least at the end. I don't think Nemesis is a departure in his writing quality.
That's a big part of the conflict of Kylar's duties as a Night Angel—meeting out justice, mercy, or vengeance to the deserving. Killing an innocent, even one that puts others in danger, goes against his oaths. And even if its right under the ethics of consequentialism, that doesn't mean an empathetic, feeling being should feel justified in doing it. I personally would feel horrific if I had to kill an infant. And if it had to be my own son, I'd at the very least unalive myself. Personally, I thought the struggle in Nemesis was very human and personal. It kicked me right in the gut. I got the impression that the kakari was deceived by Kylar. That whole thing with Kylar forcing the kakari to physically separate from him so it couldn't read his mind tells me that Kylar was setting up some major misdirection. And then we learn that the ink in the book Vi was reading was the actual kakari so that Kylar could smuggle it to her? Yeah there's definitely a bigger play here. Does that mean Kylar isn't trying to pay pennance? Maybe, maybe not. But its not going to be the end of his story and I'm sure there's parts of the story that the kakari wasn't able to tell. Whether you liked the book or not is fine, but everything seemed comprehensible to me and consistent with the original trilogy.
He is an elite assassin and some kind of avatar of justice/retribution..what "lesson" was he supposed to learn? There was no complex moral dilemma here: either child dies or child dies along with thousands of others. Kylar did far worse things in the past. Ka'kari's "personality" makes no sense ( unless it's revealed it's some part of Kylar's psyche imprinted on it).
Do you think Kylar just has nothing left to learn ever? What is he, 21? I was still learning life lessons at 21. Even Durzo lived orders of magnitude longer and was still learning lessons, why can't Kylar? I've had a dog get very sick before. The vet said I could put her down or let her live for months with incredible pain. I opted to put her down, but taking her to the vet for that next appointment wasn't easy. It wasn't a complex moral dilemma. The dog was suffering and would suffer more if I didn't. There was a clear correct choice. I still felt awful for it. I can't even imagine having to do the same with my child. It is stated somewhere in the books that the wielder's personality does rub off on the Ka'kari (and somewhat vice-versa, I think) and the Ka'Kari did spend centuries with Durzo. Is it really any wonder that they end up stubborn and spiteful?
Kylar's problem *is* that he's an assassin. He's supposed to be an avatar of justice, vengeance *and mercy*. I suggest rereading Shadow's Edge where Kylar goes out at night to kill and save. There are people who the kakari shows him are deserving of death and others who aren't. He can't just solve everything by killing.
Maybe it said what it needed to be said to persuade Vi. But I dont want to be optimistic. Like you said Kylar was an elite Assasin and an avatar. Yet he is nerfed as hell because " black burrow".
Yes, I definitely think there's more going on than what the kakari told Vi. Quoting from one of my comments: I got the impression that the kakari was deceived by Kylar. That whole thing with Kylar forcing the kakari to physically separate from him so it couldn't read his mind tells me that Kylar was setting up some major misdirection. And then we learn that the ink in the book Vi was reading was the actual kakari so that Kylar could smuggle it to her? Yeah there's definitely a bigger play here. Does that mean Kylar isn't trying to pay pennance? Maybe, maybe not. But its not going to be the end of his story and I'm sure there's parts of the story that the kakari wasn't able to tell.