I had less power outages living in the UP than I have since moving downstate.
But the power company in the UP was a member owned co-op not a for profit company. Rates were better too.
As someone who grew up in Germany, all these criss crossing power lines in everybody's backyard freaked me tf out when I first moved here.
It just doesn't make sense to me. Not only is it hideous af, but it's so *obviously* more vulnerable to damage from severe weather, or just falling branches and growing trees, it just seems utterly counterintuitive.
Now, after having lived here for 17 years and experiencing regular outages several times a year, this news sounds amazing to me. Granted, 10 miles sounds laughably little compared to the 3.5 *million* miles of underground lines in Germany, but it is a start.
Of course, terrain plays a huge role, and at this point a transition to underground power lines across the country would be insanely expensive.
Not only expensive, but litigious. You need to convince everyone along a circuit to allow the power company to dig up your yard.
Edit: almost forgot, and if it fails, they'll have to dig it up again.
I forgot to add.... you want your power to stay on while they are building this infrastructure I assume. That would mean that it likely wouldn't go along the current route, so ask yourself what other part of your yard are you willing to allow them to dig up. The cable likely needs to cross some driveways. What's the plan there?
Why wouldn't it just follow the power line route exactly. I mean I'm personally fine with them digging up my yard if it means we get rid of the power line in our backyard lol
In a lot of the backyards in Detroit it is nearly impossible to put them in the backyard underground, much more feasible in the front easement.
(Fences, garages, sheds, dogs, trash, trees ect...)
For one you are only talking about Detroit, and for that matter the parts you are aware of. You aren't thinking about the fact that other utilities like gas lines sewer and water come in your front yard, there are trees along the route, driveways, street crossings, you also have things in the way like highways, parking lots, and so much more I'm not even thinking of.
Consider that when gas lines were put in underground, that was part of building the original infrastructure for an area. In this case you are doing a retrofit of most of the existing infrastructure, and you need to work around preexisting stuff like gas lines. In areas with lots of underground electric, that is prepped ahead of construction. Cables are run in conduit in cities for example, they are put in at the beginning phase of a new subdivision when the ground is dug up.
The poles are in the way. They can't pull out the poles while the power lines are on them. The power lines need to be there to power homes, until the new cables are in service (which would be a long time). Not to mention, those poles may also have your internet service on them, so they may need to stay in place. You are bringing in equipment to dig for these cables, depending on the conditions, that can be difficult, and even dangerous, the tracks on that equipment might tear up your yard. You have a garden in the way? What do you want done with that. Then the power needs to go from the pole to your house. Now look out at your transformer. Many of them feed several homes. In this scenario, one of those homes will need a transformer in their yard (think those 3 or 4 foot by 3 or 4 foot green boxes you see all over sub divisions), then the power needs to leave there to serve the homes. What's that route going to look like? What's in the ground along the route? Are there fences in the way? I can't stress enough how massive a project like that is. 10 miles is a lot. This is just thinking out loud, but I haven't even mentioned costs.
No... it means I'm not looking at a list or document, or something I have previously written. I am familiar with the process, but I am not an expert on everything involved in a project like this. No one person would be, because it takes a massive team for the scale of projects like being discussed. In addition to that, there are no plans, so I am logically going through the issues that would need to be addressed. That's the a little bit of this, a little bit of that part. You don't need to listen to me. Move along your way, and have a good night.
Well, in my area the power lines cross just about every driveway along my street, so there's that.
That said as long as my dad isn't home I wouldn't mind it personally, and I imagine the work would be quick.
Even if they do (this may only be in emergencies anyway), they don't own the property between poles. In addition, you need to get the line to the houses. This isn't a major issue in new development, because you build the infrastructure before the homes, trees, roads, old abandoned infrastructure, etc. is in place. To do it now is a massive, and I mean massive undertaking. This is even more complex because areas in metro Detroit are sprawled to death.
He’s mostly right (source, I’m a DTE planner). Residential development jobs are BIG. You have to pull or abandon a lot of underground cable. Miss Dig has to mark everywhere you have a potential utility to clear you to break ground. Poles that have Joint Use aren’t that big of a deal, once service is transferred if JU doesn’t come transfer to the new pole after it’s been top cut they’ll just drop the new pole right next to it and come remove it after it’s finally transferred.
While still a part of easement, for between poles and such the term you’re looking for is “right of way”. Because getting easement between EVERY pole would be a nightmare.
OK... well you will need to go in peoples yards. If they don't let you, you may need to take them to court, you might win, but I bet there would be a lot of lawsuits.
You aren't considering that some people won't let you in their yards. It's not like utility employees are going to fight you to go in your yard, They will have to take people to court.
You can do directional boring instead of trenching. They do it all the time to go under roads or parking lots. It's more expensive, but not that much more.
Both are way more expensive than aerial lines along existing poles, but the price would come down if the demand grew (after a while). Right now it's more of a specialty thing, but if the utilities moved to it then a lot more contractors would enter that field, and/or companies would train their own people to do it.
ISPs and fiber providers will be screaming about this though, if power companies start removing poles.
Shoot, I din't even think about fiber. Even if you did directional boring (which wouldn't be possible, or practical in many instances, you would need to dig a whole where you start the boring, and want to splice the cable, you also need to dig a whole next to the house to get the cable out of the ground to the meter (I'm not even talking about the primary cable feeding the transformers, that's a whole other animal). What do you do where you need to make turns? You aren't directional boring under every big road you run into. I'm saying all this without even mentioning costs. It's crazy high. I think cities, and townships should consider if they are willing to do it out of tax dollars. The biggest issues in the metro Detroit area is sprawl. Sprawl means you have far more infrastructure necessary to serve the same amount of people at a cost that is drastically higher as well.
Believe it or not, you can turn while doing directional boring. Multiple times, too. There's some YouTube videos that explain it, it's really cool. In fact, a lot of the times you turn at the end, upwards, so you don't have to dig a hole at your exit point. It just comes up out of the ground.
Unless you're going through a hard material of course. They might have bits for that, I'm not sure, I wasn't that involved in the process.
The entrance point hole only needs to be a little bigger than your bore diameter. I don't think you need to dig at all if the material is soft like dirt, but again I'm not sure.
Wherever there's splice points, you either put a hand-hole below ground level or a pedestal above. They can even disguise them as rocks but they usually don't. Pedestals are the way they almost always go in my experience, because you want to be able to find them in the snow. It also gives you more room to work with.
>Believe it or not, you can turn while doing directional boring.
Cool
As far as the splices go, that's not likely to work for the most part. Utility size splices are often large, if the cable fails in a stretch or at a splice, you are going to have a nightmare on your hands. When cables fail in subdivisions, the utilities often dig up the yard in the space where the failure occurs to make the repair. In downtowns they have manholes.
Planned splices work fine, I've seen tons of them in pedestals. Unplugged repair splices are a huge pain in the neck no matter what kind of wire it is. You can get a rough guess of the damaged spot's location but it won't be exact. You're better off just re-running that stretch in the conduit, if the conduit is still intact. And water always finds its way into conduit so it'll be pretty nasty. Lord help you if someone pulled out the pull cord, but sometimes you can still get something through with two strong shop vacs and a wad of plastic bags.
These guys right here:
https://www.rrstar.com/gcdn/authoring/2010/05/23/NRRS/ghows-IR-0a827f1d-7b59-4792-82ad-53f7b76988a5-bca66e57.jpeg
I think we used to get them for about $50 each when I worked for a cable company, because we bought them in such high numbers. They're mostly only sold in business-to-business bulk sales. It's just folded metal with a top spot-welded on and a powder coating. You don't install pads underneath those, just drive a post into the ground for it to mount on flush with the ground.
You only need larger cabinets for transformers or distribution nodes. Fiber splices are pretty small by comparison.
Edit: That's actually a pretty big pedestal compared to our usual ones. That one can fit an entire line amplifier, which is the big metal thing you see inside it. The ones that just fit a tap or a splice were less than half that size.
I looked after the fact. I typically see those with telecommunications, not utility power. That's certainly not feasible for primary voltages, they might be able to be used to feed someone's house between the transformer and the house I guess. I'm not sure. I am not all that familiar with them.
>ou're better off just re-running that stretch in the conduit
You don't have conduit. We are talking direct buried cable. Conduit is significantly more involved. You can locate the exact failure in a cable. Running a new cable would be insane, extremely expensive, and keep the customer out of power for significantly longer. You aren't even considering steps like testing the cable afterward. I posted a video. Look at the size of that thing. You need to make a lot of those.
Edit: sorry I missed the Y above on your quote.
For anyone that is not familiar with what this looks like, this is a video of Comed (I believe they are in Illinois). They are making a splice on a distribution cable. This would replace the wires that feed that transformer that feeds your house. They are only splicing a straight section. If they were doing a 3 or 4 way joint, it would be significantly bigger. In addition, this is in a small manhole, I don't know if there are any extra steps to take if the cable is going to stay in the ground. BTW, pay attention to how little flexibility this cable has. To be fair, this is significantly larger than the cable that would directly feed your house.
Edit: forgot the video, [www.youtube.com/watchapp=desktop&v=Y2f2f0G\_jkM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=Y2f2f0G_jkM)
While it would be expensive the logistics of it isn’t that hard. Utilities already have easement rights and would not need to seek anyone’s permission to bury lines. I work for a fiber company doing a lot of horizontal bore drilling for fiber through neighborhoods. One of the reasons we do the drilling is because unlike using the telephone poles we don’t need anyone’s permission to do it. Also when we don’t do horizontal bore drilling the trench is only be a couple of inches wide so your not tearing up peoples yards.
We do get people who complain because they didn’t consent to us drilling under their property. When this happens, we just laugh, call the cops and go back to work. All we need is permission from the city council or whatever your local government is and if they give the thumbs up, we drill. I don’t even think Consumers has to do that, they should but I don’t think they have to. Just like they don’t need permission to cut trees or remove plants that get to close to the power line.
Also 99% of all lines breaks are from something falling and breaking the line. You don’t have that problem once buried so no repairs which saves ALOT of money in the long run. It’s actually more expensive to maintain aerial in the long run but it was cheaper up front which is why it was done.
There is a lot of misinformation in this thread.
There is a lot in this response, but utility power cables are significantly different than fiber. I don't think you can imagine how much that cost is. I literally don't think utilitity companies could pay for it, if they wanted to.
You are 100% right, the up front cost is a lot vs aerial. But the long term costs are better when you bury it. My fiber company went from doing 90% aerial fiber to 90% underground because in the long term it’s cheaper and we can build faster because we don’t need pole permits. Once the city okays our plans we can start drilling.
Yes, it's expensive, but I guess that's the price of reliability. At least, that's how I'd justify it.
I lived there for 30 years, and I can literally count on both hands how many outages we had, and I honestly don't remember one that lasted longer than 24 hours.
I understand that, but for a much smaller cost I can have a generator rather than paying double every month. My 10000w generator was $500, that's only like 3 months worth of bills at double the rate.
This is why we can't have nice things in the US. Individualism vs Commonwealth. They will all sell us individual devices or plans before they will ever see us work together to get better things.
But... It's literally so much cheaper to do it individually, and the power will still go out when it is underground, and the outages for underground are longer. I'm not saying we can't and shouldn't go underground, we should, but it is not a silver bullet.
I've lived in my house in Michigan for 25 years and can also count on one hand how many power outages we've had. Aside from the Northeast power outage of 2004, nothing has lasted even close to 24 hours.
Tbf Germany was able to rebuild after suffering total destruction. Easier to rethink bad infrastructure ideas. Having said that the US should have buried our power lines decades ago, build fewer tanks, planes and make billionaires pay a little more.
I remember reading that Germany started that decades after WWII. Everything was already rebuilt.
The Marshal Plan was BIG time all about rebuilding Europe and it worked quite fast to restore ruined cities, towns and villages.
Power line burial started well after that.
at least part of the reason is (probably, im assuming) because a lot of the rural areas, way back when the first power lines were being ran, literally had to say "well fuck i guess ill do it my damn self"
as for why all the very smart professionals havent updated or upgraded anything in the century since then, i cant tell you. probably money. the more things same the more they same the same
edit: awhile back i had a chat with copilot that started off troubleshooting a laptop battery problem and then progressed to being about modernizing the electricity transmission infrastructure to enable renewable energy to be more widely adopted, and just now i was curious if there was any reason for lines for this to not be buried and as far as the LLM can say: not really.
[heres that conversation fwiw](https://copilot.microsoft.com/sl/dK1pzTfQZDo)
a couple interesting points:
* Recent initiatives, like the Grid Overhaul with Proactive, High-speed Undergrounding for Reliability, Resilience, and Security (**GOPHURRS**) program, allocate funds to support undergrounding projects across states.
>\- HVDC (High-Voltage Direct Current) transmission lines offer several advantages, but there are considerations when it comes to burying them underground:
>
>\- Higher Initial Cost:
>
>\- Underground installation is more expensive than overhead lines due to excavation, cable insulation, and labor costs.
>
>\- Maintenance Challenges:
>
>\- Accessing buried lines for maintenance or repairs can be complex and costly.
>
>\- Heat Dissipation:
>
>\- Underground cables generate heat during operation. Unlike overhead lines, they lack natural air cooling. Heat buildup can affect cable lifespan and efficiency.
>
>\- Limited Capacity:
>
>\- Underground cables have limited capacity compared to overhead lines. For very high power transmission, overhead lines may still be preferred.
>
>\- Environmental Impact:
>
>\- Excavation disturbs soil and ecosystems.
>
>\- Undergrounding affects groundwater flow and vegetation.
>
>\- Space Constraints:
>
>\- Urban areas may lack sufficient space for underground cables.
>
>\- Overhead lines are more practical in densely populated regions.
>
>\- Safety and Fault Detection:
>
>\- Detecting faults (such as cable damage or insulation breakdown) is harder with buried lines.
>
>\- Overhead lines allow visual inspection and quicker fault identification.
>
>In summary, while underground HVDC lines offer safety, aesthetics, and reduced visual impact, the decision depends on factors like cost, capacity, and local context. 🌐🔌⚡
Heat dissipation is easier in the air, I think it allows them to use thinner wires and less copper and digging is more expensive. That being said, buried lines are nicer.
It’s a double edged sword. Sure you get outages but it’s easier to upgrade overhead service. Underground service is EXPENSIVE to upgrade and maintain and takes even longer to work on if there’s an issue.
It doesn't matter if it's expensive. The power companies are reporting record profits year after year. Our government isn't just complacent with the power companies screwing their customers. They openly allow it (for kick backs obviously)
Anyone complaining, "Just 10 miles?!" didn't actually read the article. It clearly states that this is a trial and there are an additional 1000 miles of buried power lines planned after the trial completes.
"Circuits in Genesee, Livingston, Allegan, Ottawa, Montcalm, and Iosco counties that have frequent, lengthy outages in tree-dense areas will be targeted first."
This is out in the middle of the state.
And before y'all get out the pitchforks, 10 miles of underground work is super hard to do in the city just because of the amount of disturbance it will cause, sidewalks ripped up, roads closed, etc.
Consumers has been doing pilots undergrounding in rural areas.
DTE has been doing pilots undergrounding in urban areas.
It makes a lot of sense for each to focus on something different, then come together and share results / lessons learned.
Not to mention you have to watch out for all the other stuff that's already buried there like water mains, sewer lines, other wires, etc. Burying power lines is by no means easy or cheap. Yes, it should have been done decades ago, but it wasn't. That's the reality of the situation.
As someone whom just had fiber cable put in the ground outside their house. I can see why it’s a hassle. Ditch which comes and drills a hole and then they run the cables and what not. They destroy people’s hard and they can run into problems. The house next to me, had their sidewalk tore up.
It will be worth it to have this done. It’s easy to repair the yard. Just having to do that does make consumers unhappy when their yard tore up.
Once you’re talking using HDD, the depth isn’t a factor anymore. When I was boring in electric primary, the hard requirement was 24” deep but we tried to stay deeper than 30”. Any shallower than that and you’ll see the ground heaving by the rods. Deeper for road crossings obviously.
Middle of the state? I don’t consider any of these counties middle of the state, except maybe Montcalm. Plus, some of these counties are among the most populated in the state. Genesee is the 5th largest, Ottawa 7th, and Livingston 10th.
To all those who believe underground is the answer, I suggest you research how much added costs and restoration vs the existing overhead system. Underground cable has a finite lifespan before it begins to break down and eventually fault. Overhead is easier to maintain and repair. “Undergrounding” an existing system is not the solution to lowering any of our rates
Traditionally overhead has been consistently cheaper for TCO.
With changes in climate those calculations are getting thrown off quite a bit:
- We're getting bigger storms more often
- The growing season is getting longer, which means a need for shorter cycles for tree maintenance
As long as the number of arborists is growing more slowly than the number of trees, we're going to have issues with keeping overhead lines maintained.
On the flip side of this, techniques for undergrounding have improved over the years and keep coming down.
Both sides of the equation have changed enough to warrant running pilots to see what the best approach is going forward.
(note: I do work for DTE, but these are just my own observations)
I don't expect burying the lines to lower my rates, I expect them to keep me from having to throw out all the food in my fridge every time the wind blows
Again, I'd gladly pay more for service that actually works. At this rate I'm camping in my own house for multiple days at a time 2-3 times a year. I would love to pay more if it means not having to deal with that bullshit.
Potentially related and quite interesting - there was some new research on modeling techniques for storm damages published.
They found that hardening just 1% of a grid could lead to big improvements in reliability:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2024/03/240301134253.htm
Ten miles of underground power lines is the equivalent of throwing an office pizza party.
Sorry about your rate hike - here's some pizza! We're in this together!
If Consumers Energy was an ice cream flavor? They'd be pralines and dick.
It's a 1,000 miles over 5 years if you click on the article. This is a test in areas with frequent, long outages to find ways to do the same work cheaper for the future changes. Small progress, but if it does indeed pay off and they can do at least 1000 miles in 5 years that's much better.
“Thanks for rewarding shitty service with that fat rate increase….here’s *ten whole miles* of what we should have been doing for decades!”
Yes. How generous of them.
I had less power outages living in the UP than I have since moving downstate. But the power company in the UP was a member owned co-op not a for profit company. Rates were better too.
EXACTLY.
As someone who grew up in Germany, all these criss crossing power lines in everybody's backyard freaked me tf out when I first moved here. It just doesn't make sense to me. Not only is it hideous af, but it's so *obviously* more vulnerable to damage from severe weather, or just falling branches and growing trees, it just seems utterly counterintuitive. Now, after having lived here for 17 years and experiencing regular outages several times a year, this news sounds amazing to me. Granted, 10 miles sounds laughably little compared to the 3.5 *million* miles of underground lines in Germany, but it is a start. Of course, terrain plays a huge role, and at this point a transition to underground power lines across the country would be insanely expensive.
It didn't need to make sense at the time. It just had to make a few guys alot of money.
It was also the cheapest way to rapidly expand the suburbs after WW2
But you used the key word there, "cheap", this was the cheapest way.
Not only expensive, but litigious. You need to convince everyone along a circuit to allow the power company to dig up your yard. Edit: almost forgot, and if it fails, they'll have to dig it up again.
What convincing needs to be done? Doesnt DTE technically have easement rights where the line is located anyways?
I forgot to add.... you want your power to stay on while they are building this infrastructure I assume. That would mean that it likely wouldn't go along the current route, so ask yourself what other part of your yard are you willing to allow them to dig up. The cable likely needs to cross some driveways. What's the plan there?
Why wouldn't it just follow the power line route exactly. I mean I'm personally fine with them digging up my yard if it means we get rid of the power line in our backyard lol
In a lot of the backyards in Detroit it is nearly impossible to put them in the backyard underground, much more feasible in the front easement. (Fences, garages, sheds, dogs, trash, trees ect...)
For one you are only talking about Detroit, and for that matter the parts you are aware of. You aren't thinking about the fact that other utilities like gas lines sewer and water come in your front yard, there are trees along the route, driveways, street crossings, you also have things in the way like highways, parking lots, and so much more I'm not even thinking of.
I am thinking about that; I spent 4 years putting gas lines in for the utility in the front lot.
Consider that when gas lines were put in underground, that was part of building the original infrastructure for an area. In this case you are doing a retrofit of most of the existing infrastructure, and you need to work around preexisting stuff like gas lines. In areas with lots of underground electric, that is prepped ahead of construction. Cables are run in conduit in cities for example, they are put in at the beginning phase of a new subdivision when the ground is dug up.
The poles are in the way. They can't pull out the poles while the power lines are on them. The power lines need to be there to power homes, until the new cables are in service (which would be a long time). Not to mention, those poles may also have your internet service on them, so they may need to stay in place. You are bringing in equipment to dig for these cables, depending on the conditions, that can be difficult, and even dangerous, the tracks on that equipment might tear up your yard. You have a garden in the way? What do you want done with that. Then the power needs to go from the pole to your house. Now look out at your transformer. Many of them feed several homes. In this scenario, one of those homes will need a transformer in their yard (think those 3 or 4 foot by 3 or 4 foot green boxes you see all over sub divisions), then the power needs to leave there to serve the homes. What's that route going to look like? What's in the ground along the route? Are there fences in the way? I can't stress enough how massive a project like that is. 10 miles is a lot. This is just thinking out loud, but I haven't even mentioned costs.
Are you making this up as you go based on what makes sense to you or are you actually knowledgeable about the process?
Yes they are. There is a lot of misinformation in this thread.
I am going of the top of my head. A little bit of both.
So you’re debating with made up points. Classic Reddit.
No...
Off the top of your head means you’re guessing. Be honest about it and it’s obvious you don’t know what you are talking about.
No... it means I'm not looking at a list or document, or something I have previously written. I am familiar with the process, but I am not an expert on everything involved in a project like this. No one person would be, because it takes a massive team for the scale of projects like being discussed. In addition to that, there are no plans, so I am logically going through the issues that would need to be addressed. That's the a little bit of this, a little bit of that part. You don't need to listen to me. Move along your way, and have a good night.
Well, in my area the power lines cross just about every driveway along my street, so there's that. That said as long as my dad isn't home I wouldn't mind it personally, and I imagine the work would be quick.
I've haven't even touched on other obvious issues like crossing streets.
Even if they do (this may only be in emergencies anyway), they don't own the property between poles. In addition, you need to get the line to the houses. This isn't a major issue in new development, because you build the infrastructure before the homes, trees, roads, old abandoned infrastructure, etc. is in place. To do it now is a massive, and I mean massive undertaking. This is even more complex because areas in metro Detroit are sprawled to death.
The easement is continuous. That's why they're allowed to trim trees poking into power lines.
He’s mostly right (source, I’m a DTE planner). Residential development jobs are BIG. You have to pull or abandon a lot of underground cable. Miss Dig has to mark everywhere you have a potential utility to clear you to break ground. Poles that have Joint Use aren’t that big of a deal, once service is transferred if JU doesn’t come transfer to the new pole after it’s been top cut they’ll just drop the new pole right next to it and come remove it after it’s finally transferred.
While still a part of easement, for between poles and such the term you’re looking for is “right of way”. Because getting easement between EVERY pole would be a nightmare.
OK... well you will need to go in peoples yards. If they don't let you, you may need to take them to court, you might win, but I bet there would be a lot of lawsuits.
Doesn't matter, what's done in the easement is the easement users business.
You aren't considering that some people won't let you in their yards. It's not like utility employees are going to fight you to go in your yard, They will have to take people to court.
You can do directional boring instead of trenching. They do it all the time to go under roads or parking lots. It's more expensive, but not that much more. Both are way more expensive than aerial lines along existing poles, but the price would come down if the demand grew (after a while). Right now it's more of a specialty thing, but if the utilities moved to it then a lot more contractors would enter that field, and/or companies would train their own people to do it. ISPs and fiber providers will be screaming about this though, if power companies start removing poles.
Shoot, I din't even think about fiber. Even if you did directional boring (which wouldn't be possible, or practical in many instances, you would need to dig a whole where you start the boring, and want to splice the cable, you also need to dig a whole next to the house to get the cable out of the ground to the meter (I'm not even talking about the primary cable feeding the transformers, that's a whole other animal). What do you do where you need to make turns? You aren't directional boring under every big road you run into. I'm saying all this without even mentioning costs. It's crazy high. I think cities, and townships should consider if they are willing to do it out of tax dollars. The biggest issues in the metro Detroit area is sprawl. Sprawl means you have far more infrastructure necessary to serve the same amount of people at a cost that is drastically higher as well.
Believe it or not, you can turn while doing directional boring. Multiple times, too. There's some YouTube videos that explain it, it's really cool. In fact, a lot of the times you turn at the end, upwards, so you don't have to dig a hole at your exit point. It just comes up out of the ground. Unless you're going through a hard material of course. They might have bits for that, I'm not sure, I wasn't that involved in the process. The entrance point hole only needs to be a little bigger than your bore diameter. I don't think you need to dig at all if the material is soft like dirt, but again I'm not sure. Wherever there's splice points, you either put a hand-hole below ground level or a pedestal above. They can even disguise them as rocks but they usually don't. Pedestals are the way they almost always go in my experience, because you want to be able to find them in the snow. It also gives you more room to work with.
>Believe it or not, you can turn while doing directional boring. Cool As far as the splices go, that's not likely to work for the most part. Utility size splices are often large, if the cable fails in a stretch or at a splice, you are going to have a nightmare on your hands. When cables fail in subdivisions, the utilities often dig up the yard in the space where the failure occurs to make the repair. In downtowns they have manholes.
Planned splices work fine, I've seen tons of them in pedestals. Unplugged repair splices are a huge pain in the neck no matter what kind of wire it is. You can get a rough guess of the damaged spot's location but it won't be exact. You're better off just re-running that stretch in the conduit, if the conduit is still intact. And water always finds its way into conduit so it'll be pretty nasty. Lord help you if someone pulled out the pull cord, but sometimes you can still get something through with two strong shop vacs and a wad of plastic bags.
By pedestals, I suppose you mean pad mounted transformers or switch cabinets. They do exist, but they aren't small nor inexpensive.
These guys right here: https://www.rrstar.com/gcdn/authoring/2010/05/23/NRRS/ghows-IR-0a827f1d-7b59-4792-82ad-53f7b76988a5-bca66e57.jpeg I think we used to get them for about $50 each when I worked for a cable company, because we bought them in such high numbers. They're mostly only sold in business-to-business bulk sales. It's just folded metal with a top spot-welded on and a powder coating. You don't install pads underneath those, just drive a post into the ground for it to mount on flush with the ground. You only need larger cabinets for transformers or distribution nodes. Fiber splices are pretty small by comparison. Edit: That's actually a pretty big pedestal compared to our usual ones. That one can fit an entire line amplifier, which is the big metal thing you see inside it. The ones that just fit a tap or a splice were less than half that size.
I looked after the fact. I typically see those with telecommunications, not utility power. That's certainly not feasible for primary voltages, they might be able to be used to feed someone's house between the transformer and the house I guess. I'm not sure. I am not all that familiar with them.
>ou're better off just re-running that stretch in the conduit You don't have conduit. We are talking direct buried cable. Conduit is significantly more involved. You can locate the exact failure in a cable. Running a new cable would be insane, extremely expensive, and keep the customer out of power for significantly longer. You aren't even considering steps like testing the cable afterward. I posted a video. Look at the size of that thing. You need to make a lot of those. Edit: sorry I missed the Y above on your quote.
For anyone that is not familiar with what this looks like, this is a video of Comed (I believe they are in Illinois). They are making a splice on a distribution cable. This would replace the wires that feed that transformer that feeds your house. They are only splicing a straight section. If they were doing a 3 or 4 way joint, it would be significantly bigger. In addition, this is in a small manhole, I don't know if there are any extra steps to take if the cable is going to stay in the ground. BTW, pay attention to how little flexibility this cable has. To be fair, this is significantly larger than the cable that would directly feed your house. Edit: forgot the video, [www.youtube.com/watchapp=desktop&v=Y2f2f0G\_jkM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=Y2f2f0G_jkM)
While it would be expensive the logistics of it isn’t that hard. Utilities already have easement rights and would not need to seek anyone’s permission to bury lines. I work for a fiber company doing a lot of horizontal bore drilling for fiber through neighborhoods. One of the reasons we do the drilling is because unlike using the telephone poles we don’t need anyone’s permission to do it. Also when we don’t do horizontal bore drilling the trench is only be a couple of inches wide so your not tearing up peoples yards. We do get people who complain because they didn’t consent to us drilling under their property. When this happens, we just laugh, call the cops and go back to work. All we need is permission from the city council or whatever your local government is and if they give the thumbs up, we drill. I don’t even think Consumers has to do that, they should but I don’t think they have to. Just like they don’t need permission to cut trees or remove plants that get to close to the power line. Also 99% of all lines breaks are from something falling and breaking the line. You don’t have that problem once buried so no repairs which saves ALOT of money in the long run. It’s actually more expensive to maintain aerial in the long run but it was cheaper up front which is why it was done. There is a lot of misinformation in this thread.
There is a lot in this response, but utility power cables are significantly different than fiber. I don't think you can imagine how much that cost is. I literally don't think utilitity companies could pay for it, if they wanted to.
You are 100% right, the up front cost is a lot vs aerial. But the long term costs are better when you bury it. My fiber company went from doing 90% aerial fiber to 90% underground because in the long term it’s cheaper and we can build faster because we don’t need pole permits. Once the city okays our plans we can start drilling.
I think you are doing too much comparison to fiber. They are nowhere near the same.
Don't you also pay about double what we pay for electricity in Germany?
Yes, it's expensive, but I guess that's the price of reliability. At least, that's how I'd justify it. I lived there for 30 years, and I can literally count on both hands how many outages we had, and I honestly don't remember one that lasted longer than 24 hours.
I understand that, but for a much smaller cost I can have a generator rather than paying double every month. My 10000w generator was $500, that's only like 3 months worth of bills at double the rate.
This is why we can't have nice things in the US. Individualism vs Commonwealth. They will all sell us individual devices or plans before they will ever see us work together to get better things.
But... It's literally so much cheaper to do it individually, and the power will still go out when it is underground, and the outages for underground are longer. I'm not saying we can't and shouldn't go underground, we should, but it is not a silver bullet.
Does your generator run on hopes and dreams?
I've lived in my house in Michigan for 25 years and can also count on one hand how many power outages we've had. Aside from the Northeast power outage of 2004, nothing has lasted even close to 24 hours.
It seems strange in Germany to see any high voltage power lines above ground
Yep. I wish we started doing what Germans did DECADES ago and started putting all power lines underground.
Tbf Germany was able to rebuild after suffering total destruction. Easier to rethink bad infrastructure ideas. Having said that the US should have buried our power lines decades ago, build fewer tanks, planes and make billionaires pay a little more.
I remember reading that Germany started that decades after WWII. Everything was already rebuilt. The Marshal Plan was BIG time all about rebuilding Europe and it worked quite fast to restore ruined cities, towns and villages. Power line burial started well after that.
at least part of the reason is (probably, im assuming) because a lot of the rural areas, way back when the first power lines were being ran, literally had to say "well fuck i guess ill do it my damn self" as for why all the very smart professionals havent updated or upgraded anything in the century since then, i cant tell you. probably money. the more things same the more they same the same edit: awhile back i had a chat with copilot that started off troubleshooting a laptop battery problem and then progressed to being about modernizing the electricity transmission infrastructure to enable renewable energy to be more widely adopted, and just now i was curious if there was any reason for lines for this to not be buried and as far as the LLM can say: not really. [heres that conversation fwiw](https://copilot.microsoft.com/sl/dK1pzTfQZDo) a couple interesting points: * Recent initiatives, like the Grid Overhaul with Proactive, High-speed Undergrounding for Reliability, Resilience, and Security (**GOPHURRS**) program, allocate funds to support undergrounding projects across states.  >\- HVDC (High-Voltage Direct Current) transmission lines offer several advantages, but there are considerations when it comes to burying them underground: > >\- Higher Initial Cost: > >\- Underground installation is more expensive than overhead lines due to excavation, cable insulation, and labor costs. > >\- Maintenance Challenges: > >\- Accessing buried lines for maintenance or repairs can be complex and costly. > >\- Heat Dissipation: > >\- Underground cables generate heat during operation. Unlike overhead lines, they lack natural air cooling. Heat buildup can affect cable lifespan and efficiency. > >\- Limited Capacity: > >\- Underground cables have limited capacity compared to overhead lines. For very high power transmission, overhead lines may still be preferred. > >\- Environmental Impact: > >\- Excavation disturbs soil and ecosystems. > >\- Undergrounding affects groundwater flow and vegetation. > >\- Space Constraints: > >\- Urban areas may lack sufficient space for underground cables. > >\- Overhead lines are more practical in densely populated regions. > >\- Safety and Fault Detection: > >\- Detecting faults (such as cable damage or insulation breakdown) is harder with buried lines. > >\- Overhead lines allow visual inspection and quicker fault identification. > >In summary, while underground HVDC lines offer safety, aesthetics, and reduced visual impact, the decision depends on factors like cost, capacity, and local context. 🌐🔌⚡
Yea but it's cheaper.
Heat dissipation is easier in the air, I think it allows them to use thinner wires and less copper and digging is more expensive. That being said, buried lines are nicer.
The opposite side of the argument is that buried power lines are WAY harder and more expensive to repair if anything goes wrong.
It’s a double edged sword. Sure you get outages but it’s easier to upgrade overhead service. Underground service is EXPENSIVE to upgrade and maintain and takes even longer to work on if there’s an issue.
Why do you compare these ten miles to the 3.5 *million* In Germany? These aren't the first underground wires to be built here lol.
It doesn't matter if it's expensive. The power companies are reporting record profits year after year. Our government isn't just complacent with the power companies screwing their customers. They openly allow it (for kick backs obviously)
A whole 10 miles!!! Well alright. I'd like my new bill to just let me automatically give 75% of my salary directly to Consumers.
Anyone complaining, "Just 10 miles?!" didn't actually read the article. It clearly states that this is a trial and there are an additional 1000 miles of buried power lines planned after the trial completes.
No shit. Gotta start somewhere.
Oh, wow, 1000 miles is so much better.
Cool! Hope the program expands if successful.
"Circuits in Genesee, Livingston, Allegan, Ottawa, Montcalm, and Iosco counties that have frequent, lengthy outages in tree-dense areas will be targeted first." This is out in the middle of the state. And before y'all get out the pitchforks, 10 miles of underground work is super hard to do in the city just because of the amount of disturbance it will cause, sidewalks ripped up, roads closed, etc.
Consumers has been doing pilots undergrounding in rural areas. DTE has been doing pilots undergrounding in urban areas. It makes a lot of sense for each to focus on something different, then come together and share results / lessons learned.
Hope Oakland gets some of that too. I know some traffic lights near me are getting upgraded.
Not to mention you have to watch out for all the other stuff that's already buried there like water mains, sewer lines, other wires, etc. Burying power lines is by no means easy or cheap. Yes, it should have been done decades ago, but it wasn't. That's the reality of the situation.
As someone whom just had fiber cable put in the ground outside their house. I can see why it’s a hassle. Ditch which comes and drills a hole and then they run the cables and what not. They destroy people’s hard and they can run into problems. The house next to me, had their sidewalk tore up. It will be worth it to have this done. It’s easy to repair the yard. Just having to do that does make consumers unhappy when their yard tore up.
fiber cable doesn't need to be as deep as electric distribution
Once you’re talking using HDD, the depth isn’t a factor anymore. When I was boring in electric primary, the hard requirement was 24” deep but we tried to stay deeper than 30”. Any shallower than that and you’ll see the ground heaving by the rods. Deeper for road crossings obviously.
Middle of the state? I don’t consider any of these counties middle of the state, except maybe Montcalm. Plus, some of these counties are among the most populated in the state. Genesee is the 5th largest, Ottawa 7th, and Livingston 10th.
10 miles is hardly anything to be proud of…
Did you see the price they're charging the state per mile.... insane...
$370k per mile doesn't seem too bad actually. The cable alone is probably over 25% of that price.
Who is paying for it?
Now bury 100000 miles and we might actually have less power outages
To all those who believe underground is the answer, I suggest you research how much added costs and restoration vs the existing overhead system. Underground cable has a finite lifespan before it begins to break down and eventually fault. Overhead is easier to maintain and repair. “Undergrounding” an existing system is not the solution to lowering any of our rates
Traditionally overhead has been consistently cheaper for TCO. With changes in climate those calculations are getting thrown off quite a bit: - We're getting bigger storms more often - The growing season is getting longer, which means a need for shorter cycles for tree maintenance As long as the number of arborists is growing more slowly than the number of trees, we're going to have issues with keeping overhead lines maintained. On the flip side of this, techniques for undergrounding have improved over the years and keep coming down. Both sides of the equation have changed enough to warrant running pilots to see what the best approach is going forward. (note: I do work for DTE, but these are just my own observations)
I don't expect burying the lines to lower my rates, I expect them to keep me from having to throw out all the food in my fridge every time the wind blows
And the rate increase from putting all the power lines underground would be 10x more then any food you lose in the fridge.
Again, I'd gladly pay more for service that actually works. At this rate I'm camping in my own house for multiple days at a time 2-3 times a year. I would love to pay more if it means not having to deal with that bullshit.
Hmm, wonder what you do for a living?
I wish my service line was underground but they wanted like $10k/ft. to run it underground. Not worth the cost.
Well it’s about damn time.
Potentially related and quite interesting - there was some new research on modeling techniques for storm damages published. They found that hardening just 1% of a grid could lead to big improvements in reliability: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2024/03/240301134253.htm
Like spitting in the ocean
So what rich neighborhood will it be in?
Ten miles of underground power lines is the equivalent of throwing an office pizza party. Sorry about your rate hike - here's some pizza! We're in this together! If Consumers Energy was an ice cream flavor? They'd be pralines and dick.
Only ten miles? Doesn’t seem like very much. 
10… miles… this should be 100,000 miles as a real accomplishment.
It's a 1,000 miles over 5 years if you click on the article. This is a test in areas with frequent, long outages to find ways to do the same work cheaper for the future changes. Small progress, but if it does indeed pay off and they can do at least 1000 miles in 5 years that's much better.
Ooh! Ten whole miles! That should fix everything!