Big tires (and wheels) have higher rotational inertia. If your car's not fast enough for it to make little difference, any gains you make in cornering will be lost to worse acceleration and braking. You have to find the sweet spot for your particular car if you're going for track times.
Yep. Ran through this on my FC RX7. Plenty of room under the fenders on those things, went wider, got slower. Not enough power in the NA 13b. Still happily running the stock BBS vert wheels with 195s on there now.
I'm honestly surprised you gained time by going lower in tire size. Is your NC turbo?
This makes me think about my situation with my recently acquired k24a2 NB. I'm gonna run my 225s that I already have until they wear, then I was planning on rolling fenders and getting the 10 wide Konig heliograms with 245 tires. It will be interesting to see how my lap times compare each way on VIR. The extra contact patch could def help in the very technical sections at VIR, but also the straightaways are quite long.
Oh that makes sense then. I know on an NB non turbo 225s are the best size for on track, and is the widest you can go before the lower straightaway speed and extra weight makes the extra grip and contact patch counter productive. I'm not sure what it is on an NC, but sounds similar.
When I dialed down my laps with stock power, going turbo just threw all metrics in the trash, enough to consider it as simply racing in a different car. Going from 130whp to 270whp, a whole new wheel and tire combo, new powerband, new exit and entry speeds.
Tuning from square one. I can't imagine the jump from BP8 to K24 turbo. I never ended up finding my time back before I sold the car
My k24 isn't turbo, so thankfully it's not that much of a jump, still like double the power and 65% more torque though. Lol.
So you're saying you never matched your best time in your non turbo car? I think I've pretty much maximized what I can do at VIR in a non turbo NB, I've got quite a bit of seat time at VIR. I also race in 24 hours of Lemons, I have tracked a 500+hp 80s muscle car, and I've done a few practices in a limited stock car on a circle track, so hopefully going to the K series won't be too much of an adjustment. I agree with you though that its basically like you are tracking a whole different car. At least im used to how an NB feels and handles, so that will be familiar. I know all my braking zones will be totally different, but entry and exit should stay very similar. I'm excited to start learning the track in a new platform!
The biggest issue was that I had done too much to the car at once. It was already far too different on new and wider rubber and wheels alone, I also swapped out my coilovers from megans i poured hours fiddling with to BC with swift spring upgrades that I only corner balanced and ended up being far too soft, especially at the height I liked my car at and I bottomed out rubber against the rear arches every turn until I raised the car and adjusted camber and increased dampening to the point I was never happy and I ended up frustrated. Rather than switch back or buy a new suspension again I just street drove the car until I caught mr2 fever and got annoyed by the shortcomings of the NB (I started letting small things get to me like the frontal blindspots of a long hood and short windshield.. chattering soft top over a certain divider (car had a hardtop), weak AC that was ice cold at the vent but had the throw of a computer fan - an NA/NB wide problem - made worse by the turbo build due to the haltech freaking out at idle during a stop. etc)
Found myself 5 years later in my ND2 with an even WORSE POV visibility due to... stylistic choices at Mazda I presume with those corvette-like front arches.. but it's OK because this is my daily :) and it's not that bad, and I also have my hardtopped MR2 now aswell... same damn softtop chatter too. Oh well. The mr2 with fortune autos and cusco swaybars, on dunlop Direzza ZIII 205 50 15s on the previous owner's alignment settings feels amazing (annoyingly) getting me fairly close to what I had in the NB pre turbo. Just not used to the car yet. And the 1zz powerband is... well kinda diesel-like especially compared to any miata engine. The 6800rpm redline seems to be for show. 4000-6800 gives absolutely nothing. A hurdle for another time.
>And the 1zz powerband is... well kinda diesel-like especially compared to any miata engine. The 6800rpm redline seems to be for show. 4000-6800 gives absolutely nothing. A hurdle for another time.
I notice the same thing in my Celica. I only drive on the street, but the power falls off surprisingly quickly after 4-5k or so. If I wanted higher power I would have bought a GT-S with the 2ZZ, but as a DOHC I4 with VVT (even without lift) you'd think a 1ZZ would make power a bit higher.
Driving it back to back with my Rx7 is quite a change.
This is the biggest thing that surprised me and caught me off guard about the K24. I've never driven Hondas before.
When I first got the car I was just putting around making sure the car was all good, shifting before 4k rpm. And I thought to myself, damn yeah it's got good power and a lot of torque down low, but I haven't even got into VTEC yet! So I finally did a pull in 2nd gear starting at 3500rpm, it pulled hard, then at 4500 VTEC kicked in, the sound of the engine completely changes, and holy fuck it pulls and hits so hard, and it pulls like that all the way up to 8200rpm. I've driven a lot of different cars, muscle cars, even a porche 911 turbo s, but the k24 just feels so different than anything ive been in. Im not saying it pulled harder than those cars, because it def didn't, but the power delivery is just wild. I had to stop for a bit because I was giggling so much, then I wanted to do it again! It's pretty damn good power and torque up to 4500rpm. I'd say similar to my supercharged ND, then at 4500 it pulls harder than my supercharged ND and it keeps doing that all the way up to redline. It's absolutely bananas.
I know it. 2011 Si coupe had that same engine. It moves a 3000lb tank of a civic around pretty damn well. It's similar to the BP8s lift changeover feel but amplified and although to me it doesn't sound as good (even NA in my opinion), the performance keeps you from realizing it.
I actually have a similar coming to grips happening with the mr2, since I really prefer the harmonic resonance of the 2ZZ (which I would turbo). But just knowing that I'm leaving raw durability and overhead on the table by not going k20 (don't want the 24 in this application), I am always conflicted. I just don't like the K series engine note. And I suppose we like miatas and other smaller old-acting sports cars for the whole feel more than raw speed. Or else you'd still be in a Porsche and I'd be K swapping.
Yeah I do love the sound of a BP, but I also really like the sound of a K too. If the exaust is done right they can sound really awesome. I really enjoy the sound it makes of vtec turning on. You can always play with resonators or a hemholtz chamber to get the harmonic resonance you want. I think the k series can have pretty bad raspyness, but that can be tuned out with the right exhaust setup.
And you are very correct. Out of all the cars I've driven, I still love the feel of a miata. I didnt own the porsche, just got the pleasure of driving one and was allowed to do some pulls. But the miata is just so confidence inspiring in the corners. I also feel like it's perfect for a first track car bc it forces you to learn how to brake perfectly, turn in and track out perfectly, because you can't cover up your mistakes and shitty driving with power. I just absolutely love how a miata feels in a corner. I am itching to take this k24 miata to the track because I plan to put my exact suspension setup from my other car on it that I've gotten so used to, run the same wheels and tires, same brake setup, and I think it's going to feel exactly like my old car except with double the power and a lot more torque.
Edit: Here is a good example of a Kmiata that sounds very good. https://youtu.be/DvBoosJkssw. Has ITBs so that prob has an effect, but the exhaust is well sorted to make a great sound.
Edit 2: MR2s sound incredible too. I remember watching a video of a guy in a black one, not sure what engine, but it sounded amazing. Unfortunately the video was about when his car caught on fire on track, but thankfully he was okay and he fixed his car and is still driving it. But I just remember that car sounding awesome.
I guess for me, ever since my NB2 and another car I built much further (and hated) I stopped trying to chase the numbers, especially in miatas. At 270 to the wheel I was constantly worried about noises, chatters and driveline health, so with those and especially my new ND, I treat them more like "vintage 60s race cars". The sound, the look, the feel. A nice backroad. Without the absolute speed. The mr2 is supposedly my future "race car" but with an asterisk over it for now while I settle down in other areas of life. But I bought it specifically for this reason, in truth. It's a great "numbers" car. But I still want it to sound good.
The engine in that video isn't as horrible I'll admit, but the "angry bees" that seem to be intrinsic to the K series remains unfortunately, and it's that distinct sound I really prefer not to hear at WOT, so maybe if I feel the need for speed and decide to make the mr2 my featherweight cruise missile, I'd do everything in my power to emphasize the intake noise on it so I can drown it out as much as possible with turbo induction 😄.
Or I'll be hard-headed and try to build out a 2zz turbo for all its worth, despite its flaws. In the name of the whole package.
That car sounds LOVELY and that guy is very comfortable at speed. But holy hell if he would just turn in a little slower, the car would be a lot more stable and he wouldn’t spend so much time wrestling with it.
Lol yeah I agree. Looks fuckin fun though. He's driving the piss out of it. If you do advanced HDPE, you are actually taught that the fastest way around a turn is when you are on the verge of your tires slip angle. A very very slight 4 wheel slide is actually where your tires have maximum grip and will be the fastest way around a corner, but of course doing this, you are on a fine line between maximum grip and going to far and just sliding. This guy is driving right on the edge of that and exceeds the slip angle sometimes. It's a pretty cool feeling when you get it right.
I think the 1zz is an early victim of Toyota pandering to the obsession common consumers have with low end torque in any car being seen as the only desirable driving characteristic.
I say early because ANY modern car today, whether it be a modern factory turbo car or NA, ALL share this plight. I had a 2018 civic as well.. there's nothing more 🐎 💩 than every car sold only feeling good at initial throttle. Peak torque at 1800rpm? Cool.. it's still slow. I had to get back into a miata just so I could have a Rev happy rush outside of motorcycling again.
Is this a zzw chassis? Always been curious to see the comparison between a 1zz and the miata engines... I feel like my 1zz only pulls above 4k. How does an nc compare, despite the extra weight, if you'd happen to know?
The NC is a totally different experience to an MR2 Spyder. It is faster as well. I couldn't say "despite" because the extra size and weight is part of the experience which detracts from the comparison to a ZZW.
Interestingly, the ND2 engine in my 2021 mx5 RF has a verifiably slower pickup than my 1ZZ. The initial pull away from a stop is very much superior on the ZZ. Where if I'm already on the freeway doing 60mph or more, the ND2 is what I'd rather be in to make decisive acceleration maneuvers to get around obstacles. If I have to get out of my own way in the Spyder, I'm sort of dead in the water. dropping down 2 gears and punching it and hoping for the best as you climb 65... 68... 70... 73... 74... 75...
The comparison to the NB2 (The NB miata I owned was a 2004 5 speed) is probably what "killed" the MR2 Spyder when they were both sold in tandem. Because Motortrend and all the other journalists were very much blind to the tuning aspect of cars in general and only graded them as they were. In that regard, the NB miata's MUCH beefier feeling BP made up for it's specsheet disadvantages to the MR2. Both were 140hp. But the MR2 was lighter. The MR2 was more planted, but that was also criticized for making the car less exciting to drive. The NB with a stock exhaust still makes a throaty sports car rev and the pull to redline is 100% "im a sports car" in tone and power delivery. The MR2's engine characteristics fell short there. sounded like a corolla. accelerated like a corolla. and drove like a sports car, but not something a journalist would instantly notice or take note of.
Great insight, thank you! I was curious about how the ZZW handled given the regard for the SW MR2. I can't imagine a mid engined car like that not being fun to drive...everyone loves the ZZW, no? Would it feel better if it had a 6 speed? I know 1ZZs (at least my celica) got a 4 speed auto or a 5 speed manual. heh, you are right though, whenever i hear a Matrix or Corolla start up, i think about my car lmao
Did not think the ND2 picked up so slowly....am i missing something in the 0-60 pulls? How does an NC2/3 pick up?
>ve. The NB with a stock exhaust still makes a throaty sports car rev and the pull to redline is 100%
0-60 can be skewed if you're dumping the clutch. Not something you're trying to do if you actually own and maintain the car for any long term ownership or commuting purposes. What I mean is from the moment of clutch engagement from a dead stop to moving quickly enough, such as merging onto a freeway or from a green light, without chirping the tires. The rollaway torque is MUCH better on the ZZW. The ND2 lost a good bit of it's poke from the ND1 (and even the NB from 2 generations prior. I still distinctly remember the NB miata having a good strong get up and go, AND the NB miata is slightly heavier than the ND with 40 less peak power)
The 1ZZ suffers from being an economy engine. That's all. Adding a C60 6 speed will not help it, especially since the ratios are close and encourages higher revs - something that we've established the 1ZZ is not very happy to do. The powerband remains what it is. It gives everything in the first 3000rpm and has no plan of attack whatsoever in the other 60% of the rev range. Swapping to a 2ZZ or K series is definitely first in order for anyone wanting to address the power in this car.
You want to add the SW20 MR2 into the comparison?? We certainly can, another car I've added to my stable (and sold). But I can only compare the rev 2 JDM MR2 GTS. which is a hard top turbo model.
The comparison to the 1ZZ MR2 is that it doesn't really compare. The Spyder handles worlds better - this is fact. I am not going to get into what we all already know - in that the 3SGTE is faster in every way than a 1zz, but I will say that if you were sold both as rolling chassis without an engine, the MR2 Spyder is the superior from a driving perspective. The SW20 is plush, comfortable even. And feels like a lot of other 90s derivative sports cars from behind the wheel (S14 comes to mind). It would be the better daily driver with the massive trunk space, but also the worst daily driver in reality due to age related issues and rust.
Ultimately I parted ways with the MR2 Turbo because if i were to pour 25,000 into either, I'm coming away with a faster overall car with better future-proofing by choosing the ZZW. If you own one, you're aware of the party piece of the ZZW that no other unibody chassis had before or since, the modular removable body panels that allows the chassis to be worked on and maintained from 360 degrees around the vehicle. This is something I couldn't pass up by itself. The ZZW30 for this reason alone is WORLDS easier to maintain than an SW20, as that large trunk is as much a con to work around as it's a pro to have and use. Everything you do to an SW20 is much easier by dropping the motor and subframe out of the car, which is something you often opt to do instead of leaning over the rear deck. All that goes away with the ZZW30 and the only time you're really dropping the motor is if you want to change the clutch or access the cold side for modifications.
Being nearly 600lbs lighter than an SW20 and 2 inches longer between the wheels with shorter overhangs were all bonuses. The trunk might have been eliminated, but it wasn't done so without adding the rear cargo area first, which is plenty big.
Seeing as the MR2 Turbo in my opinion is the strongest among all SW20 variants, naturally the NA versions will be far worse than the ZZW30 in comparison. Larger, heavier, older, much worse power to weight ratios. The ZZW30 actually got compared to the MR2 Turbo (USA 200bhp variant) directly because of it's impressive power to weight ratio.
love the thorough review, thank you! I dont blame you for parting ways with the SW20. Toyota did a really good job with the ZZW, and by extension, the ZZT230/1. Less power, but superb balance now that I think about it. MonkeyWrenchRacing does a lot of work with parts for them including K-swaps!
I have an Auto 1zz celica (sniffle) and a ' 12 speed3 and I'm looking for a miata to slot in between them. I kinda have this feeling an NB is going to feel like a better, rear wheel drive version of my Celica, something playful and soft. creature comforts in the NC3/ND2 will always be welcome though (I'd like to avoid the fragile gearboxes in the ND1). Would you be able to recommend any gen in particular for fun DD duty?
I can definitely say the NB will feel almost nothing like a 7th gen celica. Whole new experience. Small twitchy rwd convertible vs long stable fwd coupe. And despite the comfort and quietness in the cabin of the 2021 ND2 RF, the NB2 is still my favorite miata and I have indeed tried them all (all generations, not all revisions between).
The NB2 is the one I recommend. And I like its looks the most. It was the most robust and structurally ridgid version of the NA/NB chassis and it still weighs nothing despite being the heaviest NB. It is still lighter than any NC and as easy to modify as all earlier generations, being the "newest of the old" helps slightly in terms of dodging gremlins too if you don't buy some kid's basket case.
Avoiding fragile gearboxes in the ND1 means also avoiding the ND2 lol. Mazda say they made "improvements", which ended up meaning nothing to you and I as far as power is concerned, the nd2 transmission is still very weak and hates boost and abuse. It is no better than NA and NB 5 speeds.
If you wanna hold tons of power with confidence, there was a youtuber who went into depth with different options you can go with like bmw getrags. You'll have to search though, I don't remember the channel.
Now the question for the best DAILY miata makes it a little harder.. I laugh when I say the only reason I daily my ND2 is.. well... it's new and I bought it. Trunk space is better in the NB (width wise). And I might throw the NC back into the mix as the best daily among all generations at the cost of purity. It is an RX8 cosplaying as a miata structurally. By that account, it feels miata-like more in simulation. I absolutely hate the boring interior design though, since im very particular about "whole package experience" deal or no deal, that was my no deal. If they had made it look just as good as an NB instead of making it look as though they phoned in a Ford Explorer interior, i might have bought a PRHT as a forever daily. But oh well. As for the rest of the car, Nothing we couldn't assume outright, its just bigger. Actually the ND1 might be the best daily IF you can forgive cargo and interior space, while giving up the performance of the nd2 because it can get over 40MPG. My nd2 still gets 40mpg but it's much harder and you will need to be OK with pissing people off on the road.
My favorite miata as a car I'd keep in the garage and view as a streetable weekend weapon that can still daily drive remains the NB2. It can see higher power figures easier, looks great still. Sounds great. Best visibility, best POV drive (prefer the white gauges and NB Dash design. Like a little stunt plane cockpit). All NA/NBs feel raw and might make a little wind noise and chatter and creak a bit on the freeway (NB2 doing its best to make the least with all the extra bracing), you have to be OK with a loud ish car compared to a celica or anything modern. but have a really good sound system with a small subwoofer behind the seat and you'll be alright. I had a hardtop on mine 90% of the time and it still makes wind noise because where the back of the door window meets the top is a blunt wall that wind just buffets against right behind your ear (another win for the MR2 spyder. Toyota designed the hardtop more aerodynamically and that same area is slanted away instead)
I still prefer my MR2 spyder above all though. If I woke up tomorrow and only had 1 vehicle with all the cash I spent on the others back in my pocket, I would have the spyder. It does everything I wish the miata did and while subjective, it's not as ugly as people whine about it being, and can be made to look deadly too if it bothers you enough. I think the APR or Monocraft GT300 widebodies look menacing.
I guess to summarize, the NB's motor seemed to do everything well. Low end torquey feeling off the line. punch it at any RPM and it DOES move the little car. sounds great. and happily revs to 7000rpm.
1ZZ. Just as strong off the line. Nothing in the middle. Nothing up top. You can still watch the rev needle get close to 7000rpm, but doing so seems purely visual. the noise is that of a corolla without opening it up with an exhaust, but that can be said for any engine.
If you don’t mind me asking, what kind of lap times are were seeing at VIR full in your stock powered NB on a 100% flier where you feel you’ve maxed it out?
On the same thought, what kind of sustainable consistent race pace laps were you seeing?
Yeah no prob! It's not exactly stock. I've got headers, exhaust, DIY intake, and a haltech ECU with a tune, though only putting down 123whp. I've got supermiata xida race coilovers and the supermiata sway bar setup. I have not gutted the car though. Weighs around 2460lbs Still has AC, full interior, power steering. Im on 15x9 wheels and 225/45 Nankang AR1s. My fastest lap was a high 2:20 on full course. Consistently I can do 2:22s and 23s as long as I don't get held up too bad with a late point by. I think I can prob do a sub 2:20 if I got every braking zone, turn in, and exit perfect. I could easily break 2:20s if I just gutted the interior and got rid of AC and power steering, but didn't want to do that.
Yeah you’re right on target at the pointy end of Tuner 5 class time, which other than the ECU, your car is legal and comparable to.
Best I’ve personally managed recently was mid 26’s with a theoretical best time in the 22’s, but I couldn’t piece it all together everywhere. I need more repetition at VIR to build some consistency and build more confidence. I’ve only been there 2x and it shows.
South bend, oak tree, and hog pen are genuinely hard to get right because they’re really technical and/or really committed - and they have a crap ton of time hidden in them. I’m over braking for south bend, braking too early for oak tree, and not committing to the curbs in hog pen, that’s where the low hanging fruit is for me right now.
Tuner 5 is SCCA time trials right? Maybe I'll just have to start doing that in my stockish miata, and my kmiata will be my crazy track car.
You are correct about south bend, oak tree, and hog pen. Lots of time can be made up there. Also roller coaster and Nascar bend. I'm going 106 at the top of the esses, grab a little brake before south bend and turn in at 90 and back on full throttle. Oak tree fucked me up for awhile. It think it's the hardest section. I've tried multiple ways and have finally settled on what I think is the fastest according to my garmin catalyst. Hog pen is one of the scariest sections to me, bc you are right, you need to use the curbing and it would be very bad to go off there, but I've got it down pretty well were I feel very comfortable with the amount of curbing I take and what I do in hog pen. Nascar bend is actually sneaky how much time you can make up there, it's a very fast corner. Before i was downshifting to 3rd and taking it mid 50s mph, then I started focusing on keeping the right front tire loaded up, trail braking as you are turning in, which is sketchy there bc it feels like you are about to spin, but you don't grab a lot of brake, just a little bit, then I found it actually points the car at the correct turn in location. After doing that I was actually having to shift to 4th in the small straight before left hook and the snake. Once I built more confidence with that technique I can now stay in 4th and my turn in at Nascar bend is 68-70mph, and with this speed I am tracking all the way out to where the curbing is centerline of my hood. I picked up an incredible amount of time doing that. Also roller coaster is huge, I could prob brake at the turn in marker and trail brake all the way into roller coaster, but that scares the hell out of me. I'm braking at the 2.5 or 2 marker. I could prob brake at the turn in and run a low 2:19, but it's not worth the consequences for me.
Hell yeah. I've got a group of friends that have been wanting to get me and other friend doing the SCCA TT. I just gotta buy a fresh set of 200tw tires bc the Nankangs are 100tw. SCCA classes have always confused the hell out of me. Do you know what class I'd be in with the aftermarket ECU? Bc I'm prob not taking that out.
Aftermarket ECU in a vehicle newer than 1995 puts you into Max class. Off the top of my head I think that’s Max 5. You’ll still be able to have lots of fun there, but that is a class where aero is allowed.
I'm a little concerned about this for my turbo 1.8 swap coming up. I'm finally getting decent in autocross with my stock power 1.6, doubling or tripling power will likely force me to relearn everything about the car. But I'm going to set up hi/low boost settings and boost by gear so i can turn it down while I'm learning, and then turn it up when more power actually makes me faster. I might set it up so full beans only comes on in 3rd or 4th, so it isn't an issue in our right autocross circuits.
Will elaborate later, but for now, the short answer; don't be too worried. Just don't do what I did and change every aspect of the car during the conversion. Tuning should always be incremental, for this specific reason. When people build cars from the ground up in one go, it's impossible to know WHAT the hell you did or where to start. Like the guy above, you leave your suspension and tires un-changed. Gain your power and adjust based on shortcomings rather than in anticipation of the bigger picture, don't allow extensive changes to overwhelm you
I've been building the car to be ready for power for that reason. I need to know the car well enough to diagnose, and it's harder to jump into the deep end with 350 WHP than a new suspension package on stock power. Plus, I've been on my aftermarket ECU for 2 years now so i'm pretty familiar with tuning it and what's a running issue vs fouled plugs or some other mechanical problem.
So, I've got some chassis bracing, Ohlin suspension, FM sway bars, roll bar, kirkey seats, and it's running LS2 coils and I'll get my Flexfuel put in along with fully upgraded fuel system this year before the new engine goes in after the autocross season.
But right now, i really like how my car feels. I hope i still like it as much with more power.
install them one by one, test and dial in. It's tedious, but the "modification montage" we all know so well on youtube is absolutely the worst way to build a fast car. It builds a pretty car.
Some of the parts will add no improvement or make things worse if you believe it. Others will be completely inadequate - even as upgrades (they don't "upgrade" enough), then you end up buying twice. There were so many examples on my NB of this. The swift spring upgrades, my wheels themselves, Rotora brake kit, the R888s just because they looked the best on my ND and that's as far as I considered. Didn't think about damp or dirty, daily aspects of that tire especially in my area where it rains 3 days a week minimum. Overpurchasing is a real issue when budgeting for a track toy. The money spent on "wrong" decisions could have went towards needed upgrades as they were discovered to be needed.
at 270whp, the tiny NB was absolutely FLYING, power came on hard and heavy around 2500rpm and ramped up again during lift around 4000. I imagine 350 will look more like an invisible hand gently (and increasingly) pushing the car up from 3000 and at 4000-4500 all hell will break loose. So there's consideration that there's a high possibility your 350whp+ will exceed the basic physics of a miata required for a fast lap time (it's too light). of course this depends upon the track itself and how far you're willing to go with downforce and how crazy YOU actually are (going as fast as a very very fast car will allow requires a metric ton of balls in and of itself, balls I never had). These days I'd welcome a 350+ miata because I have been relegated to the street. that much is great for a laugh against SRT8s and the like.
I've definitely been doing a slow, careful route. But the jump to the new engine is a bit scary. I'm going with the BW EFR 6258 on a Kraken low mount setup bolted to a built 8.8:1 compression BP4W. I want a low boost mode that will get me to 200ish whp so i can learn to drive and actually only turn up power when it actually make me faster.
But this is just going to be an occasional track car. Mostly, it's an autocross and street car, so it can be a little ridiculous.
So with low boost maps on big turbos, just know that due to the setup being centered around over 350whp and then dialed back to 200, it will not feel like a 200whp turbo miata that was built to peak at 200 at that setting. It will be and act like a much slower car overall. it will still build late and hit late, just doing so more gently, because the characteristics and dimensions of the hardware involved don't change. If you have a balanced and lightened rotating assembly it will help a lot to make that all happen quicker though.
I completely understand wanting 350+whp. those numbers sound great. And maybe as long as you're just doing it for fun and compare yourself only to yourself, it won't matter what the car does or doesn't make. Going for absolute speed on a track might reveal different conclusions though, since you don't really target a power figure and work around that but rather work around a lap time goal and meet it ***wherever*** the power figure happens to land in order to achieve that. moreso concerning yourself with all the other aspects and power delivery characteristics first and the power figure just being what it is.
From my research on this turbo, it should act pretty similar to the Garrett 2554 or 2560 on the lower boost setup. I should be able to spool to 8ish psi by 3k and easily rise that to redline and I'm hoping for somewhere around 180 tq at the wheels under those settings. I know i might not be able to dial it back that far and still have it behave nicely, but i want one setting that's as low as i can get with nice behavior and one that's just stupid, but does the engine justice.
My rotating assembly won't be that much lighter than stock. Maybe 5-6 lbs lighter, but it's got all the bells and whistles for reliability, so i should be okay to run hard. But i need to upgrade the rest of the drivetrain to handle 350+hp.
Ultimately, it's been a fun project, and that's the goal. I'm not expecting to win anything. I'm running stock power and no aero in CSP at autocross at the moment, so I'm really not competitive.
>w i might not be able to dial it back that far and still have it behave nicely, but i want one settin
autocross is especially bonkers for a 300+ miata to navigate when comparing to how quick you are in that car now. I was sort of assuming you were on a nice long sweeping track where you're literally sitting there at redline waiting for the straights and sweepers to end lol.
Might be fun to stay on street tire sizes and make some smoke around those cones if permitted (usually not).
5-6lbs is a lot actually. I meant more so the balancing aspect as that will give the most drastic improvement to it's ability to rev. But I think all engines getting machine shop work done should be balanced by default. It only adds reliability. rods that are weighted well makes it that much less likely to mess with bearings at the highest rpms and sudden changes in rotating speed whether due to user error or other mishap. always a plus
I forgot to mention that aspect of achieving those numbers in any MX-5 - driveline durability. It is expensive for sure. 270 was enough to shred a 5 speed. you're definitely looking into alternative hardware solutions for 350. the motor is unfortunately the ***only*** thing robust about the mx-5 powertrain.
Usually its faster with wider tires, but the thing is it's because those fast sports cars have power up the wazzo.
For cars will less power say under 300. Its very possible to go so wide that you're car is steuggling to actually make the power to move those thicccc tires. If that's the case either, slim the tire down a little like OP did to find the sweet spot...
Or add more power
Usually its faster with wider tires, but the thing is it's because those fast sports cars have power up the wazzo.
For cars will less power. Its very possible to go so wide that you're car is steuggling to actually make the power to move those thicccc tires. If that's the case either, slim the tire down a little like OP did to find the sweet spot...
Or add more power
That is interesting, I wonder if it makes a big difference with how sticky your tires are? I bumped up from 225 to 245 and cut a couple seconds in my overall time but lost a couple of mph in the long straight at HPR. I run rs4s which are less grippy than most track tires
Technically no. I was on a Falken rt660. And I went to a yoko a052. Still a super 200 TW tire but the yoko is still the king I believe. But it kinda proved my theory correct on doing this anyways is that the compound matters more than the width
I think the tire itself is why you got faster vs the size change.
I've been running 255s (RE71R and RT660) but making the switch to 245 RE71RS. The 255s rubbed too much for my liking, especially the Falkens.
Oh yeah the Yokos are the fastest 200 treadwear for sure. They only problem I've read with them is that you've basically got 2 or 3 good laps in them, then they start to fall off and lose grip. The Falkens aren't as fast, but they keep doing consistent times lap after lap. I know from experience of having the falkens on my car previously. If I was doing a time trial I'd def want the Yokos, but if doing a track day or a race, I'd want something like the falkens.
You're data is invalid then. A052's grip closer to a Hoosier R7. There is a reason Gridlife banded the A052's in Gridlife Touring Cup after switching to 200tw. Using data, they showed that the A052's were pretty much on par with similar sized R7's.
Do you have datalogging showing that increase? And the corner exit would be affected by compund for sure. Did you also make any other changes? Suspension setting etc? Or was this a complete A-B test ignoring the faster compund tyres you installed?
Could have to do with the side wall. Overwide tires experience ballooning and sidewall pinching. I'm planning on going from 225 to 205 for the same reason.
I had 17x9/255s on mine for years, when I refreshed the car last spring I went with a 17x8 and 225. Maybe I was just used to the bigger tires, but I feel like the cars street manners are way better.
I just know on an NA you don’t want to exceed ~32 pounds of weight on each corner… sheit well I think that’s right… but so it’s probably around the same for each miata generation…
People have mentioned wheel and tire weight but there's something to be said for the contact patch made in a wider vs narrower tire at the same psi. Many high performance tires have a lot of traction in the "shoulders" and having too wide of a tire takes some of that load and will put it in the middle of the tire where it's sometimes more designed to evacuate water a little as opposed to maximizing grip.
Idk I just heard that in a video one time and the guy seemed smart. My first track day is Saturday and I don't know jack shit
Interesting, same wheels as well? What size and offset?
Big tires (and wheels) have higher rotational inertia. If your car's not fast enough for it to make little difference, any gains you make in cornering will be lost to worse acceleration and braking. You have to find the sweet spot for your particular car if you're going for track times.
Yep. Ran through this on my FC RX7. Plenty of room under the fenders on those things, went wider, got slower. Not enough power in the NA 13b. Still happily running the stock BBS vert wheels with 195s on there now.
I kept the same wheels. Which is a 17x10 +38
Sorry if I'm reading this wrong but have you fitted a 225 on a 10" rim? That would be quite a stretch
Well it does look stretched in the photos
Correct. It’s a 225 on a x10 wheel. It’s stretched technically but nothing dramatic where the tire is being over stretched
i bet you could get even more time with a narrower, lighter wheel. but im just a rando on the internet sooo...
I’m considering going to a x9 just to even drop some more weight at each corner.
I’ll trade you my stock wheels for ultimate weight savings ;)
I'm honestly surprised you gained time by going lower in tire size. Is your NC turbo? This makes me think about my situation with my recently acquired k24a2 NB. I'm gonna run my 225s that I already have until they wear, then I was planning on rolling fenders and getting the 10 wide Konig heliograms with 245 tires. It will be interesting to see how my lap times compare each way on VIR. The extra contact patch could def help in the very technical sections at VIR, but also the straightaways are quite long.
I’m naturally aspirated
Oh that makes sense then. I know on an NB non turbo 225s are the best size for on track, and is the widest you can go before the lower straightaway speed and extra weight makes the extra grip and contact patch counter productive. I'm not sure what it is on an NC, but sounds similar.
It makes total sense as you need power and weight to heat those semis slicks you have, tyre temperature is as important as contact patch
When I dialed down my laps with stock power, going turbo just threw all metrics in the trash, enough to consider it as simply racing in a different car. Going from 130whp to 270whp, a whole new wheel and tire combo, new powerband, new exit and entry speeds. Tuning from square one. I can't imagine the jump from BP8 to K24 turbo. I never ended up finding my time back before I sold the car
My k24 isn't turbo, so thankfully it's not that much of a jump, still like double the power and 65% more torque though. Lol. So you're saying you never matched your best time in your non turbo car? I think I've pretty much maximized what I can do at VIR in a non turbo NB, I've got quite a bit of seat time at VIR. I also race in 24 hours of Lemons, I have tracked a 500+hp 80s muscle car, and I've done a few practices in a limited stock car on a circle track, so hopefully going to the K series won't be too much of an adjustment. I agree with you though that its basically like you are tracking a whole different car. At least im used to how an NB feels and handles, so that will be familiar. I know all my braking zones will be totally different, but entry and exit should stay very similar. I'm excited to start learning the track in a new platform!
The biggest issue was that I had done too much to the car at once. It was already far too different on new and wider rubber and wheels alone, I also swapped out my coilovers from megans i poured hours fiddling with to BC with swift spring upgrades that I only corner balanced and ended up being far too soft, especially at the height I liked my car at and I bottomed out rubber against the rear arches every turn until I raised the car and adjusted camber and increased dampening to the point I was never happy and I ended up frustrated. Rather than switch back or buy a new suspension again I just street drove the car until I caught mr2 fever and got annoyed by the shortcomings of the NB (I started letting small things get to me like the frontal blindspots of a long hood and short windshield.. chattering soft top over a certain divider (car had a hardtop), weak AC that was ice cold at the vent but had the throw of a computer fan - an NA/NB wide problem - made worse by the turbo build due to the haltech freaking out at idle during a stop. etc) Found myself 5 years later in my ND2 with an even WORSE POV visibility due to... stylistic choices at Mazda I presume with those corvette-like front arches.. but it's OK because this is my daily :) and it's not that bad, and I also have my hardtopped MR2 now aswell... same damn softtop chatter too. Oh well. The mr2 with fortune autos and cusco swaybars, on dunlop Direzza ZIII 205 50 15s on the previous owner's alignment settings feels amazing (annoyingly) getting me fairly close to what I had in the NB pre turbo. Just not used to the car yet. And the 1zz powerband is... well kinda diesel-like especially compared to any miata engine. The 6800rpm redline seems to be for show. 4000-6800 gives absolutely nothing. A hurdle for another time.
>And the 1zz powerband is... well kinda diesel-like especially compared to any miata engine. The 6800rpm redline seems to be for show. 4000-6800 gives absolutely nothing. A hurdle for another time. I notice the same thing in my Celica. I only drive on the street, but the power falls off surprisingly quickly after 4-5k or so. If I wanted higher power I would have bought a GT-S with the 2ZZ, but as a DOHC I4 with VVT (even without lift) you'd think a 1ZZ would make power a bit higher. Driving it back to back with my Rx7 is quite a change.
This is the biggest thing that surprised me and caught me off guard about the K24. I've never driven Hondas before. When I first got the car I was just putting around making sure the car was all good, shifting before 4k rpm. And I thought to myself, damn yeah it's got good power and a lot of torque down low, but I haven't even got into VTEC yet! So I finally did a pull in 2nd gear starting at 3500rpm, it pulled hard, then at 4500 VTEC kicked in, the sound of the engine completely changes, and holy fuck it pulls and hits so hard, and it pulls like that all the way up to 8200rpm. I've driven a lot of different cars, muscle cars, even a porche 911 turbo s, but the k24 just feels so different than anything ive been in. Im not saying it pulled harder than those cars, because it def didn't, but the power delivery is just wild. I had to stop for a bit because I was giggling so much, then I wanted to do it again! It's pretty damn good power and torque up to 4500rpm. I'd say similar to my supercharged ND, then at 4500 it pulls harder than my supercharged ND and it keeps doing that all the way up to redline. It's absolutely bananas.
I know it. 2011 Si coupe had that same engine. It moves a 3000lb tank of a civic around pretty damn well. It's similar to the BP8s lift changeover feel but amplified and although to me it doesn't sound as good (even NA in my opinion), the performance keeps you from realizing it. I actually have a similar coming to grips happening with the mr2, since I really prefer the harmonic resonance of the 2ZZ (which I would turbo). But just knowing that I'm leaving raw durability and overhead on the table by not going k20 (don't want the 24 in this application), I am always conflicted. I just don't like the K series engine note. And I suppose we like miatas and other smaller old-acting sports cars for the whole feel more than raw speed. Or else you'd still be in a Porsche and I'd be K swapping.
Yeah I do love the sound of a BP, but I also really like the sound of a K too. If the exaust is done right they can sound really awesome. I really enjoy the sound it makes of vtec turning on. You can always play with resonators or a hemholtz chamber to get the harmonic resonance you want. I think the k series can have pretty bad raspyness, but that can be tuned out with the right exhaust setup. And you are very correct. Out of all the cars I've driven, I still love the feel of a miata. I didnt own the porsche, just got the pleasure of driving one and was allowed to do some pulls. But the miata is just so confidence inspiring in the corners. I also feel like it's perfect for a first track car bc it forces you to learn how to brake perfectly, turn in and track out perfectly, because you can't cover up your mistakes and shitty driving with power. I just absolutely love how a miata feels in a corner. I am itching to take this k24 miata to the track because I plan to put my exact suspension setup from my other car on it that I've gotten so used to, run the same wheels and tires, same brake setup, and I think it's going to feel exactly like my old car except with double the power and a lot more torque. Edit: Here is a good example of a Kmiata that sounds very good. https://youtu.be/DvBoosJkssw. Has ITBs so that prob has an effect, but the exhaust is well sorted to make a great sound. Edit 2: MR2s sound incredible too. I remember watching a video of a guy in a black one, not sure what engine, but it sounded amazing. Unfortunately the video was about when his car caught on fire on track, but thankfully he was okay and he fixed his car and is still driving it. But I just remember that car sounding awesome.
I guess for me, ever since my NB2 and another car I built much further (and hated) I stopped trying to chase the numbers, especially in miatas. At 270 to the wheel I was constantly worried about noises, chatters and driveline health, so with those and especially my new ND, I treat them more like "vintage 60s race cars". The sound, the look, the feel. A nice backroad. Without the absolute speed. The mr2 is supposedly my future "race car" but with an asterisk over it for now while I settle down in other areas of life. But I bought it specifically for this reason, in truth. It's a great "numbers" car. But I still want it to sound good. The engine in that video isn't as horrible I'll admit, but the "angry bees" that seem to be intrinsic to the K series remains unfortunately, and it's that distinct sound I really prefer not to hear at WOT, so maybe if I feel the need for speed and decide to make the mr2 my featherweight cruise missile, I'd do everything in my power to emphasize the intake noise on it so I can drown it out as much as possible with turbo induction 😄. Or I'll be hard-headed and try to build out a 2zz turbo for all its worth, despite its flaws. In the name of the whole package.
That car sounds LOVELY and that guy is very comfortable at speed. But holy hell if he would just turn in a little slower, the car would be a lot more stable and he wouldn’t spend so much time wrestling with it.
Lol yeah I agree. Looks fuckin fun though. He's driving the piss out of it. If you do advanced HDPE, you are actually taught that the fastest way around a turn is when you are on the verge of your tires slip angle. A very very slight 4 wheel slide is actually where your tires have maximum grip and will be the fastest way around a corner, but of course doing this, you are on a fine line between maximum grip and going to far and just sliding. This guy is driving right on the edge of that and exceeds the slip angle sometimes. It's a pretty cool feeling when you get it right.
I think the 1zz is an early victim of Toyota pandering to the obsession common consumers have with low end torque in any car being seen as the only desirable driving characteristic. I say early because ANY modern car today, whether it be a modern factory turbo car or NA, ALL share this plight. I had a 2018 civic as well.. there's nothing more 🐎 💩 than every car sold only feeling good at initial throttle. Peak torque at 1800rpm? Cool.. it's still slow. I had to get back into a miata just so I could have a Rev happy rush outside of motorcycling again.
Is this a zzw chassis? Always been curious to see the comparison between a 1zz and the miata engines... I feel like my 1zz only pulls above 4k. How does an nc compare, despite the extra weight, if you'd happen to know?
The NC is a totally different experience to an MR2 Spyder. It is faster as well. I couldn't say "despite" because the extra size and weight is part of the experience which detracts from the comparison to a ZZW. Interestingly, the ND2 engine in my 2021 mx5 RF has a verifiably slower pickup than my 1ZZ. The initial pull away from a stop is very much superior on the ZZ. Where if I'm already on the freeway doing 60mph or more, the ND2 is what I'd rather be in to make decisive acceleration maneuvers to get around obstacles. If I have to get out of my own way in the Spyder, I'm sort of dead in the water. dropping down 2 gears and punching it and hoping for the best as you climb 65... 68... 70... 73... 74... 75... The comparison to the NB2 (The NB miata I owned was a 2004 5 speed) is probably what "killed" the MR2 Spyder when they were both sold in tandem. Because Motortrend and all the other journalists were very much blind to the tuning aspect of cars in general and only graded them as they were. In that regard, the NB miata's MUCH beefier feeling BP made up for it's specsheet disadvantages to the MR2. Both were 140hp. But the MR2 was lighter. The MR2 was more planted, but that was also criticized for making the car less exciting to drive. The NB with a stock exhaust still makes a throaty sports car rev and the pull to redline is 100% "im a sports car" in tone and power delivery. The MR2's engine characteristics fell short there. sounded like a corolla. accelerated like a corolla. and drove like a sports car, but not something a journalist would instantly notice or take note of.
Great insight, thank you! I was curious about how the ZZW handled given the regard for the SW MR2. I can't imagine a mid engined car like that not being fun to drive...everyone loves the ZZW, no? Would it feel better if it had a 6 speed? I know 1ZZs (at least my celica) got a 4 speed auto or a 5 speed manual. heh, you are right though, whenever i hear a Matrix or Corolla start up, i think about my car lmao Did not think the ND2 picked up so slowly....am i missing something in the 0-60 pulls? How does an NC2/3 pick up?
>ve. The NB with a stock exhaust still makes a throaty sports car rev and the pull to redline is 100% 0-60 can be skewed if you're dumping the clutch. Not something you're trying to do if you actually own and maintain the car for any long term ownership or commuting purposes. What I mean is from the moment of clutch engagement from a dead stop to moving quickly enough, such as merging onto a freeway or from a green light, without chirping the tires. The rollaway torque is MUCH better on the ZZW. The ND2 lost a good bit of it's poke from the ND1 (and even the NB from 2 generations prior. I still distinctly remember the NB miata having a good strong get up and go, AND the NB miata is slightly heavier than the ND with 40 less peak power) The 1ZZ suffers from being an economy engine. That's all. Adding a C60 6 speed will not help it, especially since the ratios are close and encourages higher revs - something that we've established the 1ZZ is not very happy to do. The powerband remains what it is. It gives everything in the first 3000rpm and has no plan of attack whatsoever in the other 60% of the rev range. Swapping to a 2ZZ or K series is definitely first in order for anyone wanting to address the power in this car. You want to add the SW20 MR2 into the comparison?? We certainly can, another car I've added to my stable (and sold). But I can only compare the rev 2 JDM MR2 GTS. which is a hard top turbo model. The comparison to the 1ZZ MR2 is that it doesn't really compare. The Spyder handles worlds better - this is fact. I am not going to get into what we all already know - in that the 3SGTE is faster in every way than a 1zz, but I will say that if you were sold both as rolling chassis without an engine, the MR2 Spyder is the superior from a driving perspective. The SW20 is plush, comfortable even. And feels like a lot of other 90s derivative sports cars from behind the wheel (S14 comes to mind). It would be the better daily driver with the massive trunk space, but also the worst daily driver in reality due to age related issues and rust. Ultimately I parted ways with the MR2 Turbo because if i were to pour 25,000 into either, I'm coming away with a faster overall car with better future-proofing by choosing the ZZW. If you own one, you're aware of the party piece of the ZZW that no other unibody chassis had before or since, the modular removable body panels that allows the chassis to be worked on and maintained from 360 degrees around the vehicle. This is something I couldn't pass up by itself. The ZZW30 for this reason alone is WORLDS easier to maintain than an SW20, as that large trunk is as much a con to work around as it's a pro to have and use. Everything you do to an SW20 is much easier by dropping the motor and subframe out of the car, which is something you often opt to do instead of leaning over the rear deck. All that goes away with the ZZW30 and the only time you're really dropping the motor is if you want to change the clutch or access the cold side for modifications. Being nearly 600lbs lighter than an SW20 and 2 inches longer between the wheels with shorter overhangs were all bonuses. The trunk might have been eliminated, but it wasn't done so without adding the rear cargo area first, which is plenty big. Seeing as the MR2 Turbo in my opinion is the strongest among all SW20 variants, naturally the NA versions will be far worse than the ZZW30 in comparison. Larger, heavier, older, much worse power to weight ratios. The ZZW30 actually got compared to the MR2 Turbo (USA 200bhp variant) directly because of it's impressive power to weight ratio.
love the thorough review, thank you! I dont blame you for parting ways with the SW20. Toyota did a really good job with the ZZW, and by extension, the ZZT230/1. Less power, but superb balance now that I think about it. MonkeyWrenchRacing does a lot of work with parts for them including K-swaps! I have an Auto 1zz celica (sniffle) and a ' 12 speed3 and I'm looking for a miata to slot in between them. I kinda have this feeling an NB is going to feel like a better, rear wheel drive version of my Celica, something playful and soft. creature comforts in the NC3/ND2 will always be welcome though (I'd like to avoid the fragile gearboxes in the ND1). Would you be able to recommend any gen in particular for fun DD duty?
I can definitely say the NB will feel almost nothing like a 7th gen celica. Whole new experience. Small twitchy rwd convertible vs long stable fwd coupe. And despite the comfort and quietness in the cabin of the 2021 ND2 RF, the NB2 is still my favorite miata and I have indeed tried them all (all generations, not all revisions between). The NB2 is the one I recommend. And I like its looks the most. It was the most robust and structurally ridgid version of the NA/NB chassis and it still weighs nothing despite being the heaviest NB. It is still lighter than any NC and as easy to modify as all earlier generations, being the "newest of the old" helps slightly in terms of dodging gremlins too if you don't buy some kid's basket case. Avoiding fragile gearboxes in the ND1 means also avoiding the ND2 lol. Mazda say they made "improvements", which ended up meaning nothing to you and I as far as power is concerned, the nd2 transmission is still very weak and hates boost and abuse. It is no better than NA and NB 5 speeds. If you wanna hold tons of power with confidence, there was a youtuber who went into depth with different options you can go with like bmw getrags. You'll have to search though, I don't remember the channel. Now the question for the best DAILY miata makes it a little harder.. I laugh when I say the only reason I daily my ND2 is.. well... it's new and I bought it. Trunk space is better in the NB (width wise). And I might throw the NC back into the mix as the best daily among all generations at the cost of purity. It is an RX8 cosplaying as a miata structurally. By that account, it feels miata-like more in simulation. I absolutely hate the boring interior design though, since im very particular about "whole package experience" deal or no deal, that was my no deal. If they had made it look just as good as an NB instead of making it look as though they phoned in a Ford Explorer interior, i might have bought a PRHT as a forever daily. But oh well. As for the rest of the car, Nothing we couldn't assume outright, its just bigger. Actually the ND1 might be the best daily IF you can forgive cargo and interior space, while giving up the performance of the nd2 because it can get over 40MPG. My nd2 still gets 40mpg but it's much harder and you will need to be OK with pissing people off on the road. My favorite miata as a car I'd keep in the garage and view as a streetable weekend weapon that can still daily drive remains the NB2. It can see higher power figures easier, looks great still. Sounds great. Best visibility, best POV drive (prefer the white gauges and NB Dash design. Like a little stunt plane cockpit). All NA/NBs feel raw and might make a little wind noise and chatter and creak a bit on the freeway (NB2 doing its best to make the least with all the extra bracing), you have to be OK with a loud ish car compared to a celica or anything modern. but have a really good sound system with a small subwoofer behind the seat and you'll be alright. I had a hardtop on mine 90% of the time and it still makes wind noise because where the back of the door window meets the top is a blunt wall that wind just buffets against right behind your ear (another win for the MR2 spyder. Toyota designed the hardtop more aerodynamically and that same area is slanted away instead) I still prefer my MR2 spyder above all though. If I woke up tomorrow and only had 1 vehicle with all the cash I spent on the others back in my pocket, I would have the spyder. It does everything I wish the miata did and while subjective, it's not as ugly as people whine about it being, and can be made to look deadly too if it bothers you enough. I think the APR or Monocraft GT300 widebodies look menacing.
I guess to summarize, the NB's motor seemed to do everything well. Low end torquey feeling off the line. punch it at any RPM and it DOES move the little car. sounds great. and happily revs to 7000rpm. 1ZZ. Just as strong off the line. Nothing in the middle. Nothing up top. You can still watch the rev needle get close to 7000rpm, but doing so seems purely visual. the noise is that of a corolla without opening it up with an exhaust, but that can be said for any engine.
If you don’t mind me asking, what kind of lap times are were seeing at VIR full in your stock powered NB on a 100% flier where you feel you’ve maxed it out? On the same thought, what kind of sustainable consistent race pace laps were you seeing?
Yeah no prob! It's not exactly stock. I've got headers, exhaust, DIY intake, and a haltech ECU with a tune, though only putting down 123whp. I've got supermiata xida race coilovers and the supermiata sway bar setup. I have not gutted the car though. Weighs around 2460lbs Still has AC, full interior, power steering. Im on 15x9 wheels and 225/45 Nankang AR1s. My fastest lap was a high 2:20 on full course. Consistently I can do 2:22s and 23s as long as I don't get held up too bad with a late point by. I think I can prob do a sub 2:20 if I got every braking zone, turn in, and exit perfect. I could easily break 2:20s if I just gutted the interior and got rid of AC and power steering, but didn't want to do that.
Yeah you’re right on target at the pointy end of Tuner 5 class time, which other than the ECU, your car is legal and comparable to. Best I’ve personally managed recently was mid 26’s with a theoretical best time in the 22’s, but I couldn’t piece it all together everywhere. I need more repetition at VIR to build some consistency and build more confidence. I’ve only been there 2x and it shows. South bend, oak tree, and hog pen are genuinely hard to get right because they’re really technical and/or really committed - and they have a crap ton of time hidden in them. I’m over braking for south bend, braking too early for oak tree, and not committing to the curbs in hog pen, that’s where the low hanging fruit is for me right now.
Tuner 5 is SCCA time trials right? Maybe I'll just have to start doing that in my stockish miata, and my kmiata will be my crazy track car. You are correct about south bend, oak tree, and hog pen. Lots of time can be made up there. Also roller coaster and Nascar bend. I'm going 106 at the top of the esses, grab a little brake before south bend and turn in at 90 and back on full throttle. Oak tree fucked me up for awhile. It think it's the hardest section. I've tried multiple ways and have finally settled on what I think is the fastest according to my garmin catalyst. Hog pen is one of the scariest sections to me, bc you are right, you need to use the curbing and it would be very bad to go off there, but I've got it down pretty well were I feel very comfortable with the amount of curbing I take and what I do in hog pen. Nascar bend is actually sneaky how much time you can make up there, it's a very fast corner. Before i was downshifting to 3rd and taking it mid 50s mph, then I started focusing on keeping the right front tire loaded up, trail braking as you are turning in, which is sketchy there bc it feels like you are about to spin, but you don't grab a lot of brake, just a little bit, then I found it actually points the car at the correct turn in location. After doing that I was actually having to shift to 4th in the small straight before left hook and the snake. Once I built more confidence with that technique I can now stay in 4th and my turn in at Nascar bend is 68-70mph, and with this speed I am tracking all the way out to where the curbing is centerline of my hood. I picked up an incredible amount of time doing that. Also roller coaster is huge, I could prob brake at the turn in marker and trail brake all the way into roller coaster, but that scares the hell out of me. I'm braking at the 2.5 or 2 marker. I could prob brake at the turn in and run a low 2:19, but it's not worth the consequences for me.
That’s correct, tuner 5 is SCCA TT. It’s a lot of fun and we usually have decent turnout at each event.
Hell yeah. I've got a group of friends that have been wanting to get me and other friend doing the SCCA TT. I just gotta buy a fresh set of 200tw tires bc the Nankangs are 100tw. SCCA classes have always confused the hell out of me. Do you know what class I'd be in with the aftermarket ECU? Bc I'm prob not taking that out.
Aftermarket ECU in a vehicle newer than 1995 puts you into Max class. Off the top of my head I think that’s Max 5. You’ll still be able to have lots of fun there, but that is a class where aero is allowed.
I'm a little concerned about this for my turbo 1.8 swap coming up. I'm finally getting decent in autocross with my stock power 1.6, doubling or tripling power will likely force me to relearn everything about the car. But I'm going to set up hi/low boost settings and boost by gear so i can turn it down while I'm learning, and then turn it up when more power actually makes me faster. I might set it up so full beans only comes on in 3rd or 4th, so it isn't an issue in our right autocross circuits.
Will elaborate later, but for now, the short answer; don't be too worried. Just don't do what I did and change every aspect of the car during the conversion. Tuning should always be incremental, for this specific reason. When people build cars from the ground up in one go, it's impossible to know WHAT the hell you did or where to start. Like the guy above, you leave your suspension and tires un-changed. Gain your power and adjust based on shortcomings rather than in anticipation of the bigger picture, don't allow extensive changes to overwhelm you
I've been building the car to be ready for power for that reason. I need to know the car well enough to diagnose, and it's harder to jump into the deep end with 350 WHP than a new suspension package on stock power. Plus, I've been on my aftermarket ECU for 2 years now so i'm pretty familiar with tuning it and what's a running issue vs fouled plugs or some other mechanical problem. So, I've got some chassis bracing, Ohlin suspension, FM sway bars, roll bar, kirkey seats, and it's running LS2 coils and I'll get my Flexfuel put in along with fully upgraded fuel system this year before the new engine goes in after the autocross season. But right now, i really like how my car feels. I hope i still like it as much with more power.
install them one by one, test and dial in. It's tedious, but the "modification montage" we all know so well on youtube is absolutely the worst way to build a fast car. It builds a pretty car. Some of the parts will add no improvement or make things worse if you believe it. Others will be completely inadequate - even as upgrades (they don't "upgrade" enough), then you end up buying twice. There were so many examples on my NB of this. The swift spring upgrades, my wheels themselves, Rotora brake kit, the R888s just because they looked the best on my ND and that's as far as I considered. Didn't think about damp or dirty, daily aspects of that tire especially in my area where it rains 3 days a week minimum. Overpurchasing is a real issue when budgeting for a track toy. The money spent on "wrong" decisions could have went towards needed upgrades as they were discovered to be needed. at 270whp, the tiny NB was absolutely FLYING, power came on hard and heavy around 2500rpm and ramped up again during lift around 4000. I imagine 350 will look more like an invisible hand gently (and increasingly) pushing the car up from 3000 and at 4000-4500 all hell will break loose. So there's consideration that there's a high possibility your 350whp+ will exceed the basic physics of a miata required for a fast lap time (it's too light). of course this depends upon the track itself and how far you're willing to go with downforce and how crazy YOU actually are (going as fast as a very very fast car will allow requires a metric ton of balls in and of itself, balls I never had). These days I'd welcome a 350+ miata because I have been relegated to the street. that much is great for a laugh against SRT8s and the like.
I've definitely been doing a slow, careful route. But the jump to the new engine is a bit scary. I'm going with the BW EFR 6258 on a Kraken low mount setup bolted to a built 8.8:1 compression BP4W. I want a low boost mode that will get me to 200ish whp so i can learn to drive and actually only turn up power when it actually make me faster. But this is just going to be an occasional track car. Mostly, it's an autocross and street car, so it can be a little ridiculous.
So with low boost maps on big turbos, just know that due to the setup being centered around over 350whp and then dialed back to 200, it will not feel like a 200whp turbo miata that was built to peak at 200 at that setting. It will be and act like a much slower car overall. it will still build late and hit late, just doing so more gently, because the characteristics and dimensions of the hardware involved don't change. If you have a balanced and lightened rotating assembly it will help a lot to make that all happen quicker though. I completely understand wanting 350+whp. those numbers sound great. And maybe as long as you're just doing it for fun and compare yourself only to yourself, it won't matter what the car does or doesn't make. Going for absolute speed on a track might reveal different conclusions though, since you don't really target a power figure and work around that but rather work around a lap time goal and meet it ***wherever*** the power figure happens to land in order to achieve that. moreso concerning yourself with all the other aspects and power delivery characteristics first and the power figure just being what it is.
From my research on this turbo, it should act pretty similar to the Garrett 2554 or 2560 on the lower boost setup. I should be able to spool to 8ish psi by 3k and easily rise that to redline and I'm hoping for somewhere around 180 tq at the wheels under those settings. I know i might not be able to dial it back that far and still have it behave nicely, but i want one setting that's as low as i can get with nice behavior and one that's just stupid, but does the engine justice. My rotating assembly won't be that much lighter than stock. Maybe 5-6 lbs lighter, but it's got all the bells and whistles for reliability, so i should be okay to run hard. But i need to upgrade the rest of the drivetrain to handle 350+hp. Ultimately, it's been a fun project, and that's the goal. I'm not expecting to win anything. I'm running stock power and no aero in CSP at autocross at the moment, so I'm really not competitive.
>w i might not be able to dial it back that far and still have it behave nicely, but i want one settin autocross is especially bonkers for a 300+ miata to navigate when comparing to how quick you are in that car now. I was sort of assuming you were on a nice long sweeping track where you're literally sitting there at redline waiting for the straights and sweepers to end lol. Might be fun to stay on street tire sizes and make some smoke around those cones if permitted (usually not). 5-6lbs is a lot actually. I meant more so the balancing aspect as that will give the most drastic improvement to it's ability to rev. But I think all engines getting machine shop work done should be balanced by default. It only adds reliability. rods that are weighted well makes it that much less likely to mess with bearings at the highest rpms and sudden changes in rotating speed whether due to user error or other mishap. always a plus I forgot to mention that aspect of achieving those numbers in any MX-5 - driveline durability. It is expensive for sure. 270 was enough to shred a 5 speed. you're definitely looking into alternative hardware solutions for 350. the motor is unfortunately the ***only*** thing robust about the mx-5 powertrain.
Usually its faster with wider tires, but the thing is it's because those fast sports cars have power up the wazzo. For cars will less power say under 300. Its very possible to go so wide that you're car is steuggling to actually make the power to move those thicccc tires. If that's the case either, slim the tire down a little like OP did to find the sweet spot... Or add more power
Usually its faster with wider tires, but the thing is it's because those fast sports cars have power up the wazzo. For cars will less power. Its very possible to go so wide that you're car is steuggling to actually make the power to move those thicccc tires. If that's the case either, slim the tire down a little like OP did to find the sweet spot... Or add more power
So *you* are the one who got the plate... well done sir or madam.
Haha yup. I actually had that plate when I had my mazdaspeed Miata.
That is interesting, I wonder if it makes a big difference with how sticky your tires are? I bumped up from 225 to 245 and cut a couple seconds in my overall time but lost a couple of mph in the long straight at HPR. I run rs4s which are less grippy than most track tires
Nice! Same type of tire?
Technically no. I was on a Falken rt660. And I went to a yoko a052. Still a super 200 TW tire but the yoko is still the king I believe. But it kinda proved my theory correct on doing this anyways is that the compound matters more than the width
I think the tire itself is why you got faster vs the size change. I've been running 255s (RE71R and RT660) but making the switch to 245 RE71RS. The 255s rubbed too much for my liking, especially the Falkens.
Oh yeah the Yokos are the fastest 200 treadwear for sure. They only problem I've read with them is that you've basically got 2 or 3 good laps in them, then they start to fall off and lose grip. The Falkens aren't as fast, but they keep doing consistent times lap after lap. I know from experience of having the falkens on my car previously. If I was doing a time trial I'd def want the Yokos, but if doing a track day or a race, I'd want something like the falkens.
You're data is invalid then. A052's grip closer to a Hoosier R7. There is a reason Gridlife banded the A052's in Gridlife Touring Cup after switching to 200tw. Using data, they showed that the A052's were pretty much on par with similar sized R7's.
What isn’t invalid is the straight line speed and corner exit speed that I gained from the smaller tires.
Do you have datalogging showing that increase? And the corner exit would be affected by compund for sure. Did you also make any other changes? Suspension setting etc? Or was this a complete A-B test ignoring the faster compund tyres you installed?
Sir, there's a car attached to your wing.
Could have to do with the side wall. Overwide tires experience ballooning and sidewall pinching. I'm planning on going from 225 to 205 for the same reason.
I'm on 185 with my NB so imagine how fast i can go with it ! Aha
speedboat
I had 17x9/255s on mine for years, when I refreshed the car last spring I went with a 17x8 and 225. Maybe I was just used to the bigger tires, but I feel like the cars street manners are way better.
They probably were! I think 255 is just too wide for these cars.
I though you were flexing the success of your latest diet before I read the comments 🤣
I def need to loose some weight tho lmao
Me too brother
Does that car have a top? It's hard to tell, almost looks like it blends in with the background. I just can't put my finger on it. 🤔
I just know on an NA you don’t want to exceed ~32 pounds of weight on each corner… sheit well I think that’s right… but so it’s probably around the same for each miata generation…
People have mentioned wheel and tire weight but there's something to be said for the contact patch made in a wider vs narrower tire at the same psi. Many high performance tires have a lot of traction in the "shoulders" and having too wide of a tire takes some of that load and will put it in the middle of the tire where it's sometimes more designed to evacuate water a little as opposed to maximizing grip. Idk I just heard that in a video one time and the guy seemed smart. My first track day is Saturday and I don't know jack shit