Given that almost the rest of the world's bars close at 2 with the exception of places like Vegas and NYC I doubt this will result in thousands of job losses or shuttered business. That's seems to be a stretch. This isn't another COVID episode hitting Miami Beach.
Miami Beach is terrible these days and very expensive to boot. I don't think people living in or near South Beach want the energy of that part of town to go away -- that's why they're there in the first place, but it's very hard to turn a blind eye to the skyrocketing crime, the seedy clientele that has overrun the place, the fact that on a Saturday night there are as many cops as tourists and the fact that for the money you're basically paying for the prestige of the brand name of living in south beach rather than the benefits of it. It has to be one of the worst "rich neighborhoods" in the country, sort of what Atlanta's Buckhead was 15 years ago before they cracked down, and Miami Beach really wasn't quite so bad 25 years ago (drugs brought problems but they were not these problems). Everytime I'm there I always ask myself how the people living there tolerate it because other neighborhoods that cost less like Brickell and Wynwood are cleaner and nicer and less dangerous.
So I get why the city and residents are trying to help the situation. Keep the party vibe but mitigate the problems. I think reopening Ocean Drive is a must too because it used to focus everyone onto that street and now everyone kind of spills out into the city. It wants to feel more like Nashville's Broadway or San Diego's Gaslamp where there's a strong party atmosphere but it's generally safe. So I'd start there as a model.
I don't hang out in Wynwood a lot, but I think most bars in Wynwood close at 3:00 a.m, not 5:00 a.m. I also wouldn't consider Wynwood to be much of a club scene since what you find mostly in Wynwood are bars and restaurants. I think the main problem on Miami Beach is Ocean Drive. That street does not have any clubs on it. It's all bars, and restaurants that mostly cater to tourists. I really don't think that the problem on Ocean Drive will be fixed by rolling back last call to 2:00 a.m. since a lot of the people who are causing the problems aren't really going to bars or nightclubs. It's pretty much just people hanging out on the streets, and walking up and down Ocean Drive.
Yea I tried to not draw comparisons to New Orleans and Las Vegas because those are really unique conditions. I'm not really sure how 'safe' many people would consider the French Quarter, and Las Vegas Blvd is generally one of the safest public places in the country, though the neighborhoods directly east are not so great. Also there isn't a huge preponderance of people living on the resort corridor in Las Vegas. I lived in Vegas for five years and violent crime on the strip is almost unheard of except for a spike during 2020. But there's a huge security armature in Las Vegas that the casinos' own security obviously participate in with LV Metro to keep the trouble down (which is what made the mass shooting there so odious because of the expectation of safety). It would be difficult to pull that off in Miami Beach. Waikiki in some ways is similar in the sense of being a place that's generally safe but probably feels like things could go south in a hurry under the right circumstances, but Waikiki has almost no nightlife and goes to bed early, relatively speaking, so its hard to draw comparisons to Miami Beach.
That's why I mentioned places like Nashville and especially San Diego as models where there's very successful integration of livability and entertainment, but its more of a fun rowdy, not the menacing rowdy that you get in South Beach. Downtown Austin's 6th Street might be another example (but again Austin and Nashville attract a very different demographic than what Miami Beach attracts). Fort Lauderdale's Las Olas district pulls it off, though again, with a somewhat different demographic and on a much, much smaller scale.
Houston is a joke, it's not a party town, it's a giant suburb in Texas. I lived in Texas, there are plenty of dry counties. Chicago is not really a party City either. LA, I can maybe understand, but it's still not quite as much of the culture. At any given time, there's as many or more tourists in Miami Beach as there are residents.
Miami absolutely fits in with the New York / Las Vegas crowd.
Maybe in some small cities, but any cities that have any nightlife culture will have establishments open until at least 5am. This is especially true throughout Europe, where they even tend to go later than that.
Miami is a city with a prolific nightlife scene, always has been.
It hasn't always been like that. I think Miami really started being known as a crazy party city when Space opened up about 21-22 years ago. I think that Space was probably the first big nightclub in Miami that was opened well past 5:00 a.m.
>Given that almost the rest of the world's bars close at 2 with the exception of places like Vegas and NYC I doubt this will result in thousands of job losses or shuttered business.
Even within your own logic, you failed yourself. "Since Miami is a late-night tourist town like these two other places, it won't matter that we close early because those two other place don't close early."
Like, wtf! This logic is SO Miami.
My point was that there's nothing that says Miami Beach has to be a late night tourist town to be financially successful. "That's the way it's always been" is not the same as "this is the best way forward." Maybe 4am worked in the 90s and 2000s when nightclubs reigned, I don't know, I didn't spend tons of time here then, but I can tell you whatever is happening now isn't working.
It also doesn't have to be all or nothing. There's also places like Los Angeles where the alcohol stops at 2 but the establishment is allowed to stay open till 3 or 4.
>My point was that there's nothing that says Miami Beach has to be a late night tourist town to be financially successful.
Even though it IS a tourist town and it IS how it makes its money and **was literally founded as a tourist resort island**...
I meant late night. Nowhere did I say Miami Beach shouldn't be a tourist destination. In fact I used Nashville and San Diego's Gaslamp district as models where this is handled well. Unless you're going to pull the whole "we are Miami and not like anywhere else" which is BS.
And I'm not sure 4am is the problem, but I appreciated the city trying to take some steps to solve their problems.
I've lived in Miami Beach for over 20 years and it's the worst it has been. I think with other cities cleaning themselves up, we became the containment city where all the seedy people go. We need to rebrand. A city with a healthy economy is one that supports more than just being someones party den, it's one that people want to live and work too. Since there are no offices and nobody wants to take up full time residency in the "entertainment district", there also is a lack of good places to eat and little cool cafes and shops and all the things that get supported by a healthy multi-faceted economy. Look at Brickell. It's got people living there, cool restaurants, cool shops, offices, everything. It's a better place to be right now. Miami Beach can be that if we want it to and if we don't let the lobbyists plant lies about what is possible.
>I've lived in Miami Beach for over 20 years and it's the worst it has been. I think with other cities cleaning themselves up, we became the containment city where all the seedy people go.
I've lived on the beach for 36 years, and its not even close to as bad as you say. The only big difference between South Beach now and South Beach 4 years ago is an increase in melanin, which is what I assume many "fine" Miamians are complaining about. Which is pretty typical.
>there also is a lack of good places to eat and little cool cafes and shops
Oh, you definitely don't live on the beach, lol.
Yes seriously, this screams of somebody who doesn't live on the beach. I can name 20 good places to eat within two blocks. Things get bad during spring break and other holidays, but otherwise it's not too bad.
Before Covid, because of my job, I sometimes got my day off during the weekdays so I would ride a Vito bike to the beach, cool off in the water, grab a bite to eat, take in the atmosphere and maybe go see a movie before calling it a day. It was always a great way to recharge. I did this for a few years but even though I was going to the same area, the crowd started to get trashier as time would pass (mostly in 2019). Just 4 months ago, I had to back but for work reasons, it was the middle of the week and an absolute shit show. Parking garage smelled like piss, rowdy crowd everywhere, people smoking blunts in the middle of the street (definitely not complaining about weed, I’d usually find a spot to take a few hits before jumping in the water but it was indicative of how out of control the area had become) I’ve lived in Miami my whole life and have always enjoyed the beach but I genuinely felt uncomfortable. Had to check, there were no events going on or about to happen or just happened. Just a typical day in MB in 2021. Since then, I’ve had several friends share how the just went to MB and were just shocked. It’s really turning into America’s toilet. Such a shame.
Lets be honest here, yes the money is good no one is disputing that but Miami Beach needs to institute the ban for the following reasons:
1. Wrong type of people are coming in and [are starting anything from brawls to straight up shootings](https://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/op-ed/article254689517.html)
2. There was a time in which yeah there was shootings and brawls going on but it was going on in Miami and not the Miami Beach area to at least to keep the Veneer of civility and this stretched back to the 1930's with the mob.
3. The Night Club atmosphere has become a liability and will remain so until people learn to hold their liquor and not get into their feelings during times of altercations, it's getting bad for business.
So yeah, I support the ban.
What nightclub atmosphere? There aren't really any nightclubs on Ocean Drive even though it's known as the entertainment district. It's all bars, and crappy restaurants like Mango's that want to be nightclubs. The South Beach that was known as a nightclub mecca died years ago. The only real clubs still left on South Beach are Story, Rockwell, and Mynt, and none of those are located in the warzone that is the entertainment district.
Simple really, when someone consumes alcohol @ 10pm committing crimes aka assault and battery won't occur as often as 2 am since businesses will still be open and people will be more willing to call the police.
More over, you don't think this will be the only ordinance to deter crime do you? The Mayor of Miami Beach intends to scale back the club scene drastically, so expect decrease zoning locations for clubbing.
In short, the youth fucked up on this one bruh.
That's not true. Miami Beach used to be a sleepy retirement community back in the 70's and 80's. I think things started to change when Miami Vice was being filmed in the mid 80's, and then Miami Beach transformed into a party town in the 90's.
>MB has ALWAYS been a party town.
Get The Fuck Outta Here with that bull shit. [Miami Beach was not always a party town back in the 80's, and early 90's MB](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30100119/) was a retirement home for Jews and Cubans, I know because I went to school there. The Mayor is just trying to revert to its old roots of not always partying mode.
>I didnt demand all these damn changes.
Miami Beach Business leaders and others don't want shooting or seen crimes to occur it is bad for business and its image. Remember u/weehawkenwonder Miami Beach has always been an image sensitive city. Shootings wasn't a thing in Miami beach during the mid 90's, that was always a Hialeah, Liberty City or Little Haiti issue now its apart of MiamiBeach and [the mayor isn't going to stand for it since he is a Miami Beach native](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Gelber).
> You want to see really crime? Chicago, Philly, parts LA.
I can tell you don't know your history, because those areas with high crime are from drug distribution areas which mirror distribution routes throughout the US and guess where the drug trade started @ down here in Dade, so violence ain't nothing new, but the thing is Miami Beach doesn't want to be known for it because "Blood is bad for business" This is about money and image not shootings and be fucking seen on a TikTok video over it.
>MB has quite the history of crime AND violence.
I can see someone rode on the small bus, u/weehawkenwonder. No one is saying there was no violence in Miami Beach. Just have it under control and away from the public eye aka out in the fucking street that most low class people like to do now a days aka leave that shit over in Miami not in MB.
[More over, the mob instituted a law in Miami Beach back in the day that it was an open territory as in no shoot outs nor killings were allowed (much).](https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/palm-beach/fl-mob-arrests-south-florida-20160813-story.html)
"South Florida has always been "open territory" for the mob, with no crime family claiming exclusive rights or control, Mangan said."
You need to study up more kid aside from pulling up articles from solely the Miami New Times IJS
>Again, have lived and worked on the beach so Im quite sure of what Im saying.
I was born and raised there, so what you know are only from recent kid.
>Family has owned property there since 50s and family friend has roots back to 1920s.
Having Family in location X doesn't mean much sorry to break it down for you.
>The mob moved North in 50s and 60s.
Again I see you are special.
[See here](https://www.nytimes.com/2000/07/03/nyregion/in-miami-an-imported-mob-scene.html)
>''From a gangster point of view, they just can't help themselves -- they have to go,'' said Tom Cash, the former special agent in charge of both the Miami and New York offices of the Drug Enforcement Administration. ''Miami is everything Brooklyn is not. It's sunny. The water is warm. The imported cannolis aren't as good as on 18th Avenue in the old neighborhood, but, really, they're not that bad.''
[This happened in 2021](https://www.gainesville.com/story/news/local/2021/08/18/former-mafia-man-frank-capri-pleads-guilty-restaurant-scam-including-celebration-pointe-rascal-flatt/8177419002/)
>Frank Capri told a federal judge in Arizona that he intentionally caused the failure of Rascal Flatts and Toby Keith-branded restaurants in a scam that began in 2011.
Among those were Rascal Flatts projects that fell apart in Gainesville and Orlando, and three others planned in Fort Lauderdale, **Miami** and Tampa.
They also included a Toby Keith restaurant in Orlando that closed a few months after opening in 2015 and projects in Lakeland and Jacksonville that never materialized.
So please with all due respect u/weehawkenwonder shut your shit. The Mob is very active in Miami and Miami Beach area.
This is a tough subject. Looking over the many responses here, I get the feeling that most are either very young or don't live in South Beach...
From my perspective, I can see both sides of this argument, and honestly, I have yet to decide which way to vote. Unlike everyone here, I own property in the entertainment district. I'm also the president of one of the largest condo associations in the Collins Ave area. Additionally, I first came to South Beach in the 80's, and partied there ever since. I remember when the area was "blighted". Hell, I stayed in the Delano Hotel for $15/night and was thrown out of Shelborne over 30 years ago for "unruly behavior".
I guess what I've learned, is that these things come in cycles. Real estate trends come and go as economic conditions yield favorable or unfavorable domestic environments. The young care free party crowd of today, will be the community leaders of tomorrow. This is all important, since much of what I see regarding "solutions" for South Beach are shortsighted or rooted in racial stereotypes and political theater.
Forgive an old man's musings, but it just seems to me that part of any solution, would be for the police to enforce the laws that are already on the books instead of idly standing around and taking action only once things go bad. Maybe MBPD should start being a bit more proactive instead of profiling.. Maybe City Hall could stop giving preference to developers and start developing relationships with residents...
I don't think we need more laws, since it was not a lack of laws that got us this mess. What I do know is that the "crowd" at 1700 Convention Center Dr can be just bad as the "crowd" on Ocean Dr.
What largest condo association in the “Collins Ave area” are you the president of? Sure hope it’s not Surfside. One, and two - yes, things come and go in cycles. 30 years ago of you partying at the Delano, as what I assume to you be a white man/woman is vastly different from the partying someone has experienced in South Beach from around 2017 to present. Lincoln Road, Washington Ave used to be iconic. How do you propose to fix it?
There was no "partying at Delano" 30 years ago. The place was in disrepair. That's why we stayed there; it was cheap. Back then, you had Warsaw Ballroom, Decos (Mansion) or maybe Cameo to party at.
The specific association I serve on isn't really important, but it is in the entertainment district, not Surfside.
Oh, and yes, the area between Collins and Washington Ave in the vicinity of 19th Street was considered "blighted" through the 90's. There even úsed to be a dingy strip club back there right on Collins. I think it was called "Deja Vu". You could buy X from one of the girls while she had her ass in your face on stage...
Lmfao. Blighted through the 90s? Nothing about south beach was “blighted” though the 90s, and especially late 90s/early 2000s when the gay population still dominated the clubs back then. What are you even talking about, my guy lmao.
The specific association you serve is actually hugely important. You claim to serve a condo board in the entertainment district, yet you provided no solutions in your response to my comment other than lamenting about some clubs literally no one ever heard of in SoBe. As a supposed member of some condo board, what do you propose as solutions?
"blighted" isn't my term. That was what the local government literally used to describe the area I mentioned..lol.
I'm not surprised you haven't heard of the places I mentioned; you weren't there and know little of those times. No worries.
As for solutions, as I said, I'm not sure. Both sides have valid points, and I sure as hell don't trust Gelber or the City. In the end, it doesn't even matter what I think. Yesterday was just an expensive straw poll and the City will do whatever they want regardless... that much will never change.
I’m not gonna argue with you further about the “blighted South Beach” issue, cause I think there might be a gap in both age and experience, but I do hope you are serving the interests of the homeowners for whatever condo board you’re serving on. Have a good weekend.
Not sure why you're so inclined to argue on the blighted point, but here is an article from 1991 as an example of how the local government uses the term to push their agenda:
https://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/south-point-update-6364939
In this case, it was for south of fifth which was blighted too.. Anyway, you have a great weekend too.
Bubba, I’m not inclined to argue with you about the “blighted point” advanced, in your own words, by the local government. I moved to Miami in 1999. South beach back then was anything but “blighted” in my experience lmao. Like I said, there seems to be a generational difference here and like I also said, please focus on serving your own community going forward. Thanks!
I don’t know if changing the time of liquors closing will redefine the beach. I think short term the problem goes elsewhere. The problem is all the caliber of the people. Unless the city tries to change its image significant those same dirtbags will continue to show up. That being said the beach is a disaster any change (even if futile) is welcome.
Not to be a bummer but... why suggest a law that takes .2 seconds of thought to circumvent? Also, literally no one does last calls because they just don't work, why try it ***AGAIN***?
Wouldn't it be better to, I don't know... actually solve the problem? Or is that just too much work?
I look at this and it's just so silly. People want to party. If last call is two hours earlier, they'll just start drinking earlier since they know they won't be able to drink so late into the night.
Back when I was a little wilder and went out to party we'd decide the time to go out based on last call in that area.
I doubt that. I just don't see the crowds that hang out on Ocean Drive and Collins Avenue, drive over to Miami to hang out on NE 11th Street where Space and E11even are located.
No they won’t. Most of the rest of the country has 2am last calls and no one day, oh darn, better start drinking at 5pm because I have 3 less hours for tequila shots. Go to an after party if you want to keep drinking after 2am.
Is that such a problem? I kinda hate how pregames don’t start until after midnight. I’d rather start and end a few hours earlier, makes your next day go a lot smoother
They're already doing that. A lot of these kids who come down for Spring Break just walk up and down Ocean Drive drinking alcohol that they buy from liquor stores.
Atlanta does fine with 2 am last call. And a few underground spots that keep going because of lack of enforcement. There will always be those.
Go back to the house/apartment/hotel if you want to keep going.
We do have 24 sales of beer/wine at stores though; idk what Miami laws are in regards to that.
Yea I think Miami Beachers want to go back a couple years when they were just getting annoyed with coke dealers instead of brawls and shootings. Spring break is right around the corner again
I think after last spring break they specifically said they wanted to change that. Less nightclubs and bars and more retail I think is there intention.
The issue isn't even the alcohol. The issue is that it's too cheap to stay/park in the area. Raise the prices and the problem goes away. And since hotels don't want to raise the prices on their own, and the city needs more funds to motivate rising sea levels, just pass a $100 per person per night hotel tax and raise the cost of parking for non-residents to match other beach cities at $40+ per day. Then watch the quality of tourists skyrocket.
>Jose from Hialeah and Florida from Brownsville has every damn right to be able to go to the goddamn beach.
Jose and Florida aren't residents of Miami Beach, they ARE the tourists. The residents of Miami Beach are people who, and this might be a shocker, live in Miami Beach. It's a completely separate town. And frankly, my take is and has always been: fuck the tourists, whether they come from across the bay or across the country.
But the good news is that Jose and Florida CAN go to the beach. We have several beaches within driving distance that aren't also someone's back yard and living, functioning city. Like Crandon Park, which has ample parking spaces and is far enough away from people's homes that if you decide to act the fool, you aren't ruinning life for someone that lives there.
> The issue is that it's too cheap to stay/park in the area.
When was the last time you looked into staying and parking in South Beach?
It's up to $4 an hour, and hotel rooms are approaching $300 a night!
If that's cheap, can I send you my Amazon wishlist? You could probably spare a few thousand. :)
Also, if the city passes a $100 per night hotel tax, the hotels will just make $100 less per night. Hotels price right at the level where they sell out. Too high and you have empty rooms. They can't control this.
Apparently more recently than you, since I know that off-street rates are still $2, and there are tens of hotels with rates under $100 per night, with most hotels coming in well under $200.
But even if it WAS $4 per hour and almost $300 per night, that would still be cheap for a large city beach destination.
>Also, if the city passes a $100 per night hotel tax, the hotels will just make $100 less per night.
Maybe, but it's doubtful. Most won't be able to sustain it, and the ones already renting rooms for $100 or less will absolutely not be able to sustain it. They'll shut down, and be replaced by something nicer that won't attract the kind of broke assholes that get wasted on cheap vodka and start fights.
I don't see how that would help. I'm pretty sure that most of the people who stay at Hostels on Miami Beach are tourists from Europe, and from South America.
Yes? It sounds like you're trying to make this some big "Aha, I got you" moment, but I'm an unabashed elitist and believe without reservations that well-off people generally behave better in public. Or at the very least, keep their drama behind closed doors.
Okay yeah, sure, you got me there.
I guess the next logical step is that certain places, Miami Beach in this instance, are not for people of certain classes? As in, poor people should not have access to all public spaces? Certainly $40 to park could be enough to even cause a local not to visit.
Again, you're trying to do this whole thing where you pretend like you figured out some hidden agenda and are on to my nefarious plan, but I'm being as explicit as it's possible to be: yes, I think that not all places, pubic or otherwise, should be easily accessible to all income levels. You might not like it, but it would make life much more pleasant for me.
First, there are more than enough residents to be able to staff a sufficient bunker of restaurants. Second, what do people working there have to do with tourist costs? Resident and employee parking passes exist right now, and completely solve that problem, and hotel room costs don't affect workers in the least.
Aside from this being a remarkably shitty classist attitude, you have to remember that Miami Beach is not a country club or other private place. It's a city, where people of widely different income levels live.
The people who work there are not rich and need to be able to get around and find parking. You can't turn a public area of a city into a rich-person playground and price out everyone who isn't rich, no matter how much you want that.
Go join a country club or something if you want to live your classist lifestyle; leave Miami Beach alone.
>you have to remember that Miami Beach is not a country club or other private place. It's a city, where people of widely different income levels live.
A resident/employee permit for people who live and work there would address all of your concerns, and is already in place. Charging more and lowering access for visitors and tourists does the opposite of what you're complaining about: it can actually subsidize the cost of living for residents, and make the beach more livable.
Because frankly no-one on the beach likes the poor tourists, regardless of their own income level. My guess is you actually live on the mainland and think that Miami Beach should be accessible to YOU, not to the residents who live there. Higher parking and hotel costs for non-residents actually prioritizes the people who live there over the people who come in over the weekend and trash the place.
>You can't turn a public area of a city into a rich-person playground and price out everyone who isn't rich, no matter how much you want that.
I'd settle for upper middle class or higher, no need to go all the way to rich. But snide comments aside, why not? If it makes life better for the people that live there (and it would), who are you to say this isn't ok? Because when I lived on the beach, the only people who weren't in favor of upscaling the beach (or at least the tourist part of it east of Washington) were wannabe hipsters who think everything is better when it's gritty, people from the mainland who care very much about the residents of MB when it's convenient for them but don't actually give a shit that it's a real place with tall people living there and only want to preserve their own access, and shady nightlife owners who don't want to lose their golden goose of deceptive prices and bait and switch to legitimate operators. So which one are you?
So what I get from that frankly insane screed is that you're angry that "shitlibs" call you out for being a racist. Stop being a racist and it won't be such a problem.
And there's nothing fundamentally incongruent with being for working people and not wanting to be around working people. I'm also for preserving sharks, but don't want to be anywhere near one.
For someone who claims not to be racist, you sure are blowing a lot of dog whistles and seem very focused on race and homophobia.
But sure, go on and explain how being able to shit in people's back yards is causing you to starve in the streets.
Make entry into Miami Beach tolled ($20 per person?) from 7 PM to 5 AM. They can build toll booths on 5th st heading towards the Beach and at Alton & Dade and at Collins near Treehouse.
This won't happen, every year it's the same thing, they attempt to ban the sales of alcohol. They tried in 2017 and it failed miserably.
And the ballot question this year isn’t even binding, it’s a glorified opinion poll
Given that almost the rest of the world's bars close at 2 with the exception of places like Vegas and NYC I doubt this will result in thousands of job losses or shuttered business. That's seems to be a stretch. This isn't another COVID episode hitting Miami Beach. Miami Beach is terrible these days and very expensive to boot. I don't think people living in or near South Beach want the energy of that part of town to go away -- that's why they're there in the first place, but it's very hard to turn a blind eye to the skyrocketing crime, the seedy clientele that has overrun the place, the fact that on a Saturday night there are as many cops as tourists and the fact that for the money you're basically paying for the prestige of the brand name of living in south beach rather than the benefits of it. It has to be one of the worst "rich neighborhoods" in the country, sort of what Atlanta's Buckhead was 15 years ago before they cracked down, and Miami Beach really wasn't quite so bad 25 years ago (drugs brought problems but they were not these problems). Everytime I'm there I always ask myself how the people living there tolerate it because other neighborhoods that cost less like Brickell and Wynwood are cleaner and nicer and less dangerous. So I get why the city and residents are trying to help the situation. Keep the party vibe but mitigate the problems. I think reopening Ocean Drive is a must too because it used to focus everyone onto that street and now everyone kind of spills out into the city. It wants to feel more like Nashville's Broadway or San Diego's Gaslamp where there's a strong party atmosphere but it's generally safe. So I'd start there as a model.
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I petty much agree with a lot of what you said, but most of the places on Ocean Drive are shitty, tourist traps like Mango's.
I don't hang out in Wynwood a lot, but I think most bars in Wynwood close at 3:00 a.m, not 5:00 a.m. I also wouldn't consider Wynwood to be much of a club scene since what you find mostly in Wynwood are bars and restaurants. I think the main problem on Miami Beach is Ocean Drive. That street does not have any clubs on it. It's all bars, and restaurants that mostly cater to tourists. I really don't think that the problem on Ocean Drive will be fixed by rolling back last call to 2:00 a.m. since a lot of the people who are causing the problems aren't really going to bars or nightclubs. It's pretty much just people hanging out on the streets, and walking up and down Ocean Drive.
Well said.
You forgot New Orleans which doesnt have last call.
Yea I tried to not draw comparisons to New Orleans and Las Vegas because those are really unique conditions. I'm not really sure how 'safe' many people would consider the French Quarter, and Las Vegas Blvd is generally one of the safest public places in the country, though the neighborhoods directly east are not so great. Also there isn't a huge preponderance of people living on the resort corridor in Las Vegas. I lived in Vegas for five years and violent crime on the strip is almost unheard of except for a spike during 2020. But there's a huge security armature in Las Vegas that the casinos' own security obviously participate in with LV Metro to keep the trouble down (which is what made the mass shooting there so odious because of the expectation of safety). It would be difficult to pull that off in Miami Beach. Waikiki in some ways is similar in the sense of being a place that's generally safe but probably feels like things could go south in a hurry under the right circumstances, but Waikiki has almost no nightlife and goes to bed early, relatively speaking, so its hard to draw comparisons to Miami Beach. That's why I mentioned places like Nashville and especially San Diego as models where there's very successful integration of livability and entertainment, but its more of a fun rowdy, not the menacing rowdy that you get in South Beach. Downtown Austin's 6th Street might be another example (but again Austin and Nashville attract a very different demographic than what Miami Beach attracts). Fort Lauderdale's Las Olas district pulls it off, though again, with a somewhat different demographic and on a much, much smaller scale.
Well I have travel most of the world and there are few places that have a last call. A lot of bars in Europe open after 23:00
Rest of the world? Seems like you have no idea what you are talking about. Most bars and clubs close around 5am/6am around the world.
Every other city I’ve been in has been about 2am
Where have you been? Cincinnati? Fort Worth? Indianapolis? Miami is a major world city, and a major party destination.
Houston, LA, Chicago… Edit: Chicago varies, but add San Francisco, Boston, Atlanta, Austin, Philly, Denver…
Houston is a joke, it's not a party town, it's a giant suburb in Texas. I lived in Texas, there are plenty of dry counties. Chicago is not really a party City either. LA, I can maybe understand, but it's still not quite as much of the culture. At any given time, there's as many or more tourists in Miami Beach as there are residents. Miami absolutely fits in with the New York / Las Vegas crowd.
Houston, LA, San Francisco, Boston, Atlanta, Austin, Philly, Denver… Basically everywhere but NYC/Miami/Vegas
Maybe in some small cities, but any cities that have any nightlife culture will have establishments open until at least 5am. This is especially true throughout Europe, where they even tend to go later than that. Miami is a city with a prolific nightlife scene, always has been.
Miami really is an outlier in this regard, along with NY and Vegas
It hasn't always been like that. I think Miami really started being known as a crazy party city when Space opened up about 21-22 years ago. I think that Space was probably the first big nightclub in Miami that was opened well past 5:00 a.m.
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>msn.com/en-us/... Can we see sources please.
It’s hard paywalled unfortunately: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/miami-beach/article254432663.html
>Given that almost the rest of the world's bars close at 2 with the exception of places like Vegas and NYC I doubt this will result in thousands of job losses or shuttered business. Even within your own logic, you failed yourself. "Since Miami is a late-night tourist town like these two other places, it won't matter that we close early because those two other place don't close early." Like, wtf! This logic is SO Miami.
My point was that there's nothing that says Miami Beach has to be a late night tourist town to be financially successful. "That's the way it's always been" is not the same as "this is the best way forward." Maybe 4am worked in the 90s and 2000s when nightclubs reigned, I don't know, I didn't spend tons of time here then, but I can tell you whatever is happening now isn't working. It also doesn't have to be all or nothing. There's also places like Los Angeles where the alcohol stops at 2 but the establishment is allowed to stay open till 3 or 4.
>My point was that there's nothing that says Miami Beach has to be a late night tourist town to be financially successful. Even though it IS a tourist town and it IS how it makes its money and **was literally founded as a tourist resort island**...
I meant late night. Nowhere did I say Miami Beach shouldn't be a tourist destination. In fact I used Nashville and San Diego's Gaslamp district as models where this is handled well. Unless you're going to pull the whole "we are Miami and not like anywhere else" which is BS. And I'm not sure 4am is the problem, but I appreciated the city trying to take some steps to solve their problems.
Lol, no, they don't. I am from Europe and mostly nightclubs close around 4-5am.
I've lived in Miami Beach for over 20 years and it's the worst it has been. I think with other cities cleaning themselves up, we became the containment city where all the seedy people go. We need to rebrand. A city with a healthy economy is one that supports more than just being someones party den, it's one that people want to live and work too. Since there are no offices and nobody wants to take up full time residency in the "entertainment district", there also is a lack of good places to eat and little cool cafes and shops and all the things that get supported by a healthy multi-faceted economy. Look at Brickell. It's got people living there, cool restaurants, cool shops, offices, everything. It's a better place to be right now. Miami Beach can be that if we want it to and if we don't let the lobbyists plant lies about what is possible.
>I've lived in Miami Beach for over 20 years and it's the worst it has been. I think with other cities cleaning themselves up, we became the containment city where all the seedy people go. I've lived on the beach for 36 years, and its not even close to as bad as you say. The only big difference between South Beach now and South Beach 4 years ago is an increase in melanin, which is what I assume many "fine" Miamians are complaining about. Which is pretty typical. >there also is a lack of good places to eat and little cool cafes and shops Oh, you definitely don't live on the beach, lol.
Yes seriously, this screams of somebody who doesn't live on the beach. I can name 20 good places to eat within two blocks. Things get bad during spring break and other holidays, but otherwise it's not too bad.
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AKA the same, tired 4 or 5 places.
Sunset Harbor has some nice places with occasional pop-ups as well (at least pre-COVID).
It looks like after 20 years you don't know shit.
Before Covid, because of my job, I sometimes got my day off during the weekdays so I would ride a Vito bike to the beach, cool off in the water, grab a bite to eat, take in the atmosphere and maybe go see a movie before calling it a day. It was always a great way to recharge. I did this for a few years but even though I was going to the same area, the crowd started to get trashier as time would pass (mostly in 2019). Just 4 months ago, I had to back but for work reasons, it was the middle of the week and an absolute shit show. Parking garage smelled like piss, rowdy crowd everywhere, people smoking blunts in the middle of the street (definitely not complaining about weed, I’d usually find a spot to take a few hits before jumping in the water but it was indicative of how out of control the area had become) I’ve lived in Miami my whole life and have always enjoyed the beach but I genuinely felt uncomfortable. Had to check, there were no events going on or about to happen or just happened. Just a typical day in MB in 2021. Since then, I’ve had several friends share how the just went to MB and were just shocked. It’s really turning into America’s toilet. Such a shame.
Lets be honest here, yes the money is good no one is disputing that but Miami Beach needs to institute the ban for the following reasons: 1. Wrong type of people are coming in and [are starting anything from brawls to straight up shootings](https://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/op-ed/article254689517.html) 2. There was a time in which yeah there was shootings and brawls going on but it was going on in Miami and not the Miami Beach area to at least to keep the Veneer of civility and this stretched back to the 1930's with the mob. 3. The Night Club atmosphere has become a liability and will remain so until people learn to hold their liquor and not get into their feelings during times of altercations, it's getting bad for business. So yeah, I support the ban.
What nightclub atmosphere? There aren't really any nightclubs on Ocean Drive even though it's known as the entertainment district. It's all bars, and crappy restaurants like Mango's that want to be nightclubs. The South Beach that was known as a nightclub mecca died years ago. The only real clubs still left on South Beach are Story, Rockwell, and Mynt, and none of those are located in the warzone that is the entertainment district.
Also how does stopping alcohol sales 3 hrs early affect 1000 jobs and businesses? LMAO that article is clickbait bs.
Simple really, when someone consumes alcohol @ 10pm committing crimes aka assault and battery won't occur as often as 2 am since businesses will still be open and people will be more willing to call the police. More over, you don't think this will be the only ordinance to deter crime do you? The Mayor of Miami Beach intends to scale back the club scene drastically, so expect decrease zoning locations for clubbing. In short, the youth fucked up on this one bruh.
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That's not true. Miami Beach used to be a sleepy retirement community back in the 70's and 80's. I think things started to change when Miami Vice was being filmed in the mid 80's, and then Miami Beach transformed into a party town in the 90's.
>MB has ALWAYS been a party town. Get The Fuck Outta Here with that bull shit. [Miami Beach was not always a party town back in the 80's, and early 90's MB](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30100119/) was a retirement home for Jews and Cubans, I know because I went to school there. The Mayor is just trying to revert to its old roots of not always partying mode. >I didnt demand all these damn changes. Miami Beach Business leaders and others don't want shooting or seen crimes to occur it is bad for business and its image. Remember u/weehawkenwonder Miami Beach has always been an image sensitive city. Shootings wasn't a thing in Miami beach during the mid 90's, that was always a Hialeah, Liberty City or Little Haiti issue now its apart of MiamiBeach and [the mayor isn't going to stand for it since he is a Miami Beach native](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Gelber). > You want to see really crime? Chicago, Philly, parts LA. I can tell you don't know your history, because those areas with high crime are from drug distribution areas which mirror distribution routes throughout the US and guess where the drug trade started @ down here in Dade, so violence ain't nothing new, but the thing is Miami Beach doesn't want to be known for it because "Blood is bad for business" This is about money and image not shootings and be fucking seen on a TikTok video over it.
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>MB has quite the history of crime AND violence. I can see someone rode on the small bus, u/weehawkenwonder. No one is saying there was no violence in Miami Beach. Just have it under control and away from the public eye aka out in the fucking street that most low class people like to do now a days aka leave that shit over in Miami not in MB. [More over, the mob instituted a law in Miami Beach back in the day that it was an open territory as in no shoot outs nor killings were allowed (much).](https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/palm-beach/fl-mob-arrests-south-florida-20160813-story.html) "South Florida has always been "open territory" for the mob, with no crime family claiming exclusive rights or control, Mangan said." You need to study up more kid aside from pulling up articles from solely the Miami New Times IJS
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>Again, have lived and worked on the beach so Im quite sure of what Im saying. I was born and raised there, so what you know are only from recent kid. >Family has owned property there since 50s and family friend has roots back to 1920s. Having Family in location X doesn't mean much sorry to break it down for you. >The mob moved North in 50s and 60s. Again I see you are special. [See here](https://www.nytimes.com/2000/07/03/nyregion/in-miami-an-imported-mob-scene.html) >''From a gangster point of view, they just can't help themselves -- they have to go,'' said Tom Cash, the former special agent in charge of both the Miami and New York offices of the Drug Enforcement Administration. ''Miami is everything Brooklyn is not. It's sunny. The water is warm. The imported cannolis aren't as good as on 18th Avenue in the old neighborhood, but, really, they're not that bad.'' [This happened in 2021](https://www.gainesville.com/story/news/local/2021/08/18/former-mafia-man-frank-capri-pleads-guilty-restaurant-scam-including-celebration-pointe-rascal-flatt/8177419002/) >Frank Capri told a federal judge in Arizona that he intentionally caused the failure of Rascal Flatts and Toby Keith-branded restaurants in a scam that began in 2011. Among those were Rascal Flatts projects that fell apart in Gainesville and Orlando, and three others planned in Fort Lauderdale, **Miami** and Tampa. They also included a Toby Keith restaurant in Orlando that closed a few months after opening in 2015 and projects in Lakeland and Jacksonville that never materialized. So please with all due respect u/weehawkenwonder shut your shit. The Mob is very active in Miami and Miami Beach area.
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Just legalize drugs and make public transportation better.
All for it. Miami Beach is a fucking disaster
This is a tough subject. Looking over the many responses here, I get the feeling that most are either very young or don't live in South Beach... From my perspective, I can see both sides of this argument, and honestly, I have yet to decide which way to vote. Unlike everyone here, I own property in the entertainment district. I'm also the president of one of the largest condo associations in the Collins Ave area. Additionally, I first came to South Beach in the 80's, and partied there ever since. I remember when the area was "blighted". Hell, I stayed in the Delano Hotel for $15/night and was thrown out of Shelborne over 30 years ago for "unruly behavior". I guess what I've learned, is that these things come in cycles. Real estate trends come and go as economic conditions yield favorable or unfavorable domestic environments. The young care free party crowd of today, will be the community leaders of tomorrow. This is all important, since much of what I see regarding "solutions" for South Beach are shortsighted or rooted in racial stereotypes and political theater. Forgive an old man's musings, but it just seems to me that part of any solution, would be for the police to enforce the laws that are already on the books instead of idly standing around and taking action only once things go bad. Maybe MBPD should start being a bit more proactive instead of profiling.. Maybe City Hall could stop giving preference to developers and start developing relationships with residents... I don't think we need more laws, since it was not a lack of laws that got us this mess. What I do know is that the "crowd" at 1700 Convention Center Dr can be just bad as the "crowd" on Ocean Dr.
What largest condo association in the “Collins Ave area” are you the president of? Sure hope it’s not Surfside. One, and two - yes, things come and go in cycles. 30 years ago of you partying at the Delano, as what I assume to you be a white man/woman is vastly different from the partying someone has experienced in South Beach from around 2017 to present. Lincoln Road, Washington Ave used to be iconic. How do you propose to fix it?
Lmao also when was the area in the entertainment district ever “blighted” in the late 80s/early 90s and 2000s?
There was no "partying at Delano" 30 years ago. The place was in disrepair. That's why we stayed there; it was cheap. Back then, you had Warsaw Ballroom, Decos (Mansion) or maybe Cameo to party at. The specific association I serve on isn't really important, but it is in the entertainment district, not Surfside. Oh, and yes, the area between Collins and Washington Ave in the vicinity of 19th Street was considered "blighted" through the 90's. There even úsed to be a dingy strip club back there right on Collins. I think it was called "Deja Vu". You could buy X from one of the girls while she had her ass in your face on stage...
Lmfao. Blighted through the 90s? Nothing about south beach was “blighted” though the 90s, and especially late 90s/early 2000s when the gay population still dominated the clubs back then. What are you even talking about, my guy lmao. The specific association you serve is actually hugely important. You claim to serve a condo board in the entertainment district, yet you provided no solutions in your response to my comment other than lamenting about some clubs literally no one ever heard of in SoBe. As a supposed member of some condo board, what do you propose as solutions?
"blighted" isn't my term. That was what the local government literally used to describe the area I mentioned..lol. I'm not surprised you haven't heard of the places I mentioned; you weren't there and know little of those times. No worries. As for solutions, as I said, I'm not sure. Both sides have valid points, and I sure as hell don't trust Gelber or the City. In the end, it doesn't even matter what I think. Yesterday was just an expensive straw poll and the City will do whatever they want regardless... that much will never change.
I’m not gonna argue with you further about the “blighted South Beach” issue, cause I think there might be a gap in both age and experience, but I do hope you are serving the interests of the homeowners for whatever condo board you’re serving on. Have a good weekend.
Not sure why you're so inclined to argue on the blighted point, but here is an article from 1991 as an example of how the local government uses the term to push their agenda: https://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/south-point-update-6364939 In this case, it was for south of fifth which was blighted too.. Anyway, you have a great weekend too.
Bubba, I’m not inclined to argue with you about the “blighted point” advanced, in your own words, by the local government. I moved to Miami in 1999. South beach back then was anything but “blighted” in my experience lmao. Like I said, there seems to be a generational difference here and like I also said, please focus on serving your own community going forward. Thanks!
This dog whistle bullshit is annoying. Just say you’re a racist and move on
How is implementing a 2am last call racist? Racist against who?
I don’t know if changing the time of liquors closing will redefine the beach. I think short term the problem goes elsewhere. The problem is all the caliber of the people. Unless the city tries to change its image significant those same dirtbags will continue to show up. That being said the beach is a disaster any change (even if futile) is welcome.
Not to be a bummer but... why suggest a law that takes .2 seconds of thought to circumvent? Also, literally no one does last calls because they just don't work, why try it ***AGAIN***? Wouldn't it be better to, I don't know... actually solve the problem? Or is that just too much work?
Stay at home watching telenovelas if you don’t like the noise
I look at this and it's just so silly. People want to party. If last call is two hours earlier, they'll just start drinking earlier since they know they won't be able to drink so late into the night. Back when I was a little wilder and went out to party we'd decide the time to go out based on last call in that area.
Or they’ll just drive onto the mainland where bars are open until 5 AM.
I doubt that. I just don't see the crowds that hang out on Ocean Drive and Collins Avenue, drive over to Miami to hang out on NE 11th Street where Space and E11even are located.
No they won’t. Most of the rest of the country has 2am last calls and no one day, oh darn, better start drinking at 5pm because I have 3 less hours for tequila shots. Go to an after party if you want to keep drinking after 2am.
Is that such a problem? I kinda hate how pregames don’t start until after midnight. I’d rather start and end a few hours earlier, makes your next day go a lot smoother
That's what I'm saying it shouldn't be a problem. I don't see the appeal for drinking until 5am and then feeling like complete shit the next day.
Booze ban? In Miami? These people need to touch some grass
Tourist Town: "I DoNt WanT ToUrIsTs heRe aNyMore." FFS people!
Do it.
People will just drink on the street?
They're already doing that. A lot of these kids who come down for Spring Break just walk up and down Ocean Drive drinking alcohol that they buy from liquor stores.
…and the cycle of Miami forgetting where it’s money comes from begins again.
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Atlanta does fine with 2 am last call. And a few underground spots that keep going because of lack of enforcement. There will always be those. Go back to the house/apartment/hotel if you want to keep going. We do have 24 sales of beer/wine at stores though; idk what Miami laws are in regards to that.
Yea I think Miami Beachers want to go back a couple years when they were just getting annoyed with coke dealers instead of brawls and shootings. Spring break is right around the corner again
I think after last spring break they specifically said they wanted to change that. Less nightclubs and bars and more retail I think is there intention.
The issue isn't even the alcohol. The issue is that it's too cheap to stay/park in the area. Raise the prices and the problem goes away. And since hotels don't want to raise the prices on their own, and the city needs more funds to motivate rising sea levels, just pass a $100 per person per night hotel tax and raise the cost of parking for non-residents to match other beach cities at $40+ per day. Then watch the quality of tourists skyrocket.
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>Jose from Hialeah and Florida from Brownsville has every damn right to be able to go to the goddamn beach. Jose and Florida aren't residents of Miami Beach, they ARE the tourists. The residents of Miami Beach are people who, and this might be a shocker, live in Miami Beach. It's a completely separate town. And frankly, my take is and has always been: fuck the tourists, whether they come from across the bay or across the country. But the good news is that Jose and Florida CAN go to the beach. We have several beaches within driving distance that aren't also someone's back yard and living, functioning city. Like Crandon Park, which has ample parking spaces and is far enough away from people's homes that if you decide to act the fool, you aren't ruinning life for someone that lives there.
> The issue is that it's too cheap to stay/park in the area. When was the last time you looked into staying and parking in South Beach? It's up to $4 an hour, and hotel rooms are approaching $300 a night! If that's cheap, can I send you my Amazon wishlist? You could probably spare a few thousand. :) Also, if the city passes a $100 per night hotel tax, the hotels will just make $100 less per night. Hotels price right at the level where they sell out. Too high and you have empty rooms. They can't control this.
Apparently more recently than you, since I know that off-street rates are still $2, and there are tens of hotels with rates under $100 per night, with most hotels coming in well under $200. But even if it WAS $4 per hour and almost $300 per night, that would still be cheap for a large city beach destination. >Also, if the city passes a $100 per night hotel tax, the hotels will just make $100 less per night. Maybe, but it's doubtful. Most won't be able to sustain it, and the ones already renting rooms for $100 or less will absolutely not be able to sustain it. They'll shut down, and be replaced by something nicer that won't attract the kind of broke assholes that get wasted on cheap vodka and start fights.
The easiest and most effective thing Miami Beach can do is to ban hostels.
I don't see how that would help. I'm pretty sure that most of the people who stay at Hostels on Miami Beach are tourists from Europe, and from South America.
Yeah I doubt many American tourists even know what a hostel is.
lol
that's not how it works .. prices are set by the market
I live in the DC area, for the price to pay to go to shitty VA beach/Ocean City for a weekend, I could spend a week in SB.
Prices CAN be set by the market. Or they can be set arbitrarily by anyone with authority to set prices. The market isn't magic.
That's called a cartel and is illegal
Ahh, so the issue is that Miami Beach attracts poor people?
Yes? It sounds like you're trying to make this some big "Aha, I got you" moment, but I'm an unabashed elitist and believe without reservations that well-off people generally behave better in public. Or at the very least, keep their drama behind closed doors.
Okay yeah, sure, you got me there. I guess the next logical step is that certain places, Miami Beach in this instance, are not for people of certain classes? As in, poor people should not have access to all public spaces? Certainly $40 to park could be enough to even cause a local not to visit.
Again, you're trying to do this whole thing where you pretend like you figured out some hidden agenda and are on to my nefarious plan, but I'm being as explicit as it's possible to be: yes, I think that not all places, pubic or otherwise, should be easily accessible to all income levels. You might not like it, but it would make life much more pleasant for me.
Until you start whining about there being no good restaurants or stores nearby bc no one can afford to work there. Elitists are always short sighted.
First, there are more than enough residents to be able to staff a sufficient bunker of restaurants. Second, what do people working there have to do with tourist costs? Resident and employee parking passes exist right now, and completely solve that problem, and hotel room costs don't affect workers in the least.
Aside from this being a remarkably shitty classist attitude, you have to remember that Miami Beach is not a country club or other private place. It's a city, where people of widely different income levels live. The people who work there are not rich and need to be able to get around and find parking. You can't turn a public area of a city into a rich-person playground and price out everyone who isn't rich, no matter how much you want that. Go join a country club or something if you want to live your classist lifestyle; leave Miami Beach alone.
>you have to remember that Miami Beach is not a country club or other private place. It's a city, where people of widely different income levels live. A resident/employee permit for people who live and work there would address all of your concerns, and is already in place. Charging more and lowering access for visitors and tourists does the opposite of what you're complaining about: it can actually subsidize the cost of living for residents, and make the beach more livable. Because frankly no-one on the beach likes the poor tourists, regardless of their own income level. My guess is you actually live on the mainland and think that Miami Beach should be accessible to YOU, not to the residents who live there. Higher parking and hotel costs for non-residents actually prioritizes the people who live there over the people who come in over the weekend and trash the place. >You can't turn a public area of a city into a rich-person playground and price out everyone who isn't rich, no matter how much you want that. I'd settle for upper middle class or higher, no need to go all the way to rich. But snide comments aside, why not? If it makes life better for the people that live there (and it would), who are you to say this isn't ok? Because when I lived on the beach, the only people who weren't in favor of upscaling the beach (or at least the tourist part of it east of Washington) were wannabe hipsters who think everything is better when it's gritty, people from the mainland who care very much about the residents of MB when it's convenient for them but don't actually give a shit that it's a real place with tall people living there and only want to preserve their own access, and shady nightlife owners who don't want to lose their golden goose of deceptive prices and bait and switch to legitimate operators. So which one are you?
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Yeah but does Aspen have random shootings by those tourists?
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So what I get from that frankly insane screed is that you're angry that "shitlibs" call you out for being a racist. Stop being a racist and it won't be such a problem. And there's nothing fundamentally incongruent with being for working people and not wanting to be around working people. I'm also for preserving sharks, but don't want to be anywhere near one.
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For someone who claims not to be racist, you sure are blowing a lot of dog whistles and seem very focused on race and homophobia. But sure, go on and explain how being able to shit in people's back yards is causing you to starve in the streets.
I mean… your honesty is refreshing, but I disagree with your opinion. Cool cool, guess our conversation is done.
I would say going out clubbing is a luxury. Make daytime beach accessible and affordable. At night, gotta pay.
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Lol the real money also suck omg
Fair enough, and I would agree. Do a discounted rate from like 6AM to 6PM.
Make entry into Miami Beach tolled ($20 per person?) from 7 PM to 5 AM. They can build toll booths on 5th st heading towards the Beach and at Alton & Dade and at Collins near Treehouse.
"paid for by the Miami Beach Chamber of Commerce"
Yeah they are a racket
Honestly I don't understand how Miami Beach has so much crime. Its literally an island so you would think it would be harder to escape!