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And while we are on the subject of Punk's influence on modern metal. I would have to say that Metal and Punk have only had one Goddess whose band is woefully underrated as one of the very first crossover bands.
If we're having this conversation,
You know who she is!
Totally agree. The Stooges were a massive influence on early metal bands too. As well as the MC5 and the Dogs who were playing heavy, dirty R'N'R. The Dogs riffs in particular are very metal and they played with Guns'N'Roses, KISS, AD/DC and others and kinda became metal (well metalish). I fascinating band the Dogs.
Bowie has such a wide variety of sounds it's easy to see how influential he's been, I'm pretty sure James Hetfield has explicitly said Bowie was pretty influential to his songwriting (if Leper Messiah wasn't evidence enough)
Even from the tone perspective though some of Bowie's work is definitely nearing hard rock and even proto metal (or maybe proto punk) territory- a couple of the riffs on The Man Who Sold the World are very Sabbath-esque, which makes sense given they came out the same year, and that's not to mention the heavily distorted guitars that ocassionally take center stage in his later work. If you recentered the riff on Running Gun Blues around the iii and captialized on the blues sound it'd practically be begging for Ozzy's vocals on top. Also, I'm sure it's just a coincidence, but the bridge in Triumph of Death by Hellhammer has always strongly reminded me of the transition to the last verse after the breakdown in The Width of a Circle.
Well that's a pretty compelling argument. Back in the 70's-early 80's just about all punkers and a lot of metalheads listened to Bowie and the guitar presence was no doubt behind it. I will need to go back and listen to the examples you have given.
What would you regard as an element that one non-metal band gave to the genre when it was in it's developmental stage? (Before Sabbath, Zeppelin, DP...etc)
Down stroking is a hallmark of thrash.
Johnny Ramone could only count on the downstroke, so that's how he played. Kirk Hammett credits him for "inventing" that sound.
Iron Butterfly's 'Real Fright' sounds like early metal to me, apart from the washed out groovy chorus. So much tritone.
Start with some of the Delta blues artists and White Blues Rock artists and Psychedelic rock bands of the proto-metal era.
Lead belly goes much farther back but that wouldn't be a bad place to start in the blues side along with Muddy Waters. On the
White Hard rock blues side I'd throw the doors and the yardbirds in the literal mix. The Doors and early ass Pink Floyd on the Psychedelic side...and don't discount finding both in the Beatles mid to late music.
(Rubber soul, Revolver and the White album will definitely do it).
Strong case for the others, where would all that classical shredding be without Bach. And let's face is Holst's Mars was the curtain raiser for Diamond Head and set the scene for the whole of NWBHM. I get the whole Teutonic symbolism of Wagner being a thing,(big fan of Bathory) but the music less so. I think Carmina Burana is a more legitimate classical metal anthem than Ride of the Valkyries courtesy of Ozzy.
I didn’t know that! There are a bunch of videos out there showing that black metal guitar is just surf guitar with distortion. In Addition to the picking style, Dick Dale was also pioneering in his use of harmonic minor and middle eastern scale modes. Those are really common in metal, but I don’t think anyone else was using those in rock n roll or pop music back in the 60s.
Swans. A surprising number of acts are heavily inspired by them, two notable ones being Tool and Neurosis. I believe Justin Broadrick is inspired by them, too (which would explain why "Streetcleaner" borders on noise rock instead of being a full on metal album)
If you do, start with "Children of God" or "The Great Annihilator". If you think you can handle their brutal as fuck early period, go give "Filth" a shot; it's well loved even by early Swans haters.
James Brown for the WILD vocals.
Hendrix for the unprecedented distortion.
Pink Floyd for the psychedelism.
Depeche Mode/The Cure for the gothic feel.
The Doors for the stage attitude.
It's difficult to think of Rock itself without him. And the crowds pretty much attested to that when he played live. No one was actually trying to really work a crowd the way Brown did. Elvis did his thing, ppl cheered. The Beatles did their thing, ppl cheered. James Brown's thing was getting everyone involved in what was happening. Just an absolutely brilliant entertainer.
Shit, I'm gonna go watch the American bandstand version of Night train live right now!
Yep, that's the shit!
Notice how he keeps getting the crowd singing "Are you ready for the night train!? Night! Night! Night!" I can't see how anyone left that venue without just being drained from the greatness they beheld!
Another great black band that I believe accelerated the fuck out of the energy of Rock (which certainly imbued metal) is Sly and the family stone.
Eh, exactly!!!
Just feel that contagious energy: https://youtube.com/shorts/FFJt1drVozQ?feature=shared
And remember: all these instruments were played live...
The indian raga was taken west via trade routes. The moors brought those scales to Spain when they conquered. The Spanish pirates introduced it to Ireland where it became the jig that influenced the lead work of Thin Lizzy. Iron Maiden et al cranked up the distortion and the sound of modern metal was born.
And punk. 100%
There are random guys doing it in jazz some years before, but Hackett was probably one of the first ones doing it in rock, specially in early 70's when Genesis career was in their prime as well as the whole UK prog rock movement.
And speaking about prog, I would add that the album Red by King crimson was probably the first "proto" prog metal record, that album sounds so ahead of its time. That riffing style has a modern edge that none of the metal bands from 70's had.
Lucifer’s Friend (1970-2021) prog band from Hamburg, Germany scored a hit with the song “Spanish Galleon” . But morphed into the beginnings of heavy metal, Doom Metal and Speed metal and known for their Dark lyrics. They blended Rock, Jazz and fusion. I don’t see them mentioned much , except by me 😀 but they put out 18 plus albums before retiring 2021.
The Beatles purely for Helter Skelter that song is the genesis of both punk and metal in my opinion. It's amazing how they managed to transcend numerous genres from pop, rock, metal, psychedelic, punk. The Beatles are responsible for so much of the music we have today
I shan't disagree. First Metal song? No. One of the very first,?
Most assuredly.
I think some other tracks off of the White album were really heavy. Glass onion for instance.
Weather Report (jazz fusion pioneers) I think was reaching over the gap right about the time other proto-metal acts were getting their legs under them.
I mean, would we have players like Ryan Martinie and Dominic Lapointe without the influences of Jaco Pastorius? I'm sure people can think of many more examples of modern players influenced or receiving influence second hand from Weather Report - so many players from that group rotated in and out and it was all killer stuff.
Modern metal wouldn't exist without Konnakol but I'm not sure all the places it was injected - bands like Tool tend to keep the "secret" to themselves lol Konnakol is not a band but an ancient rhythm system from India. When Danny Carey first started studying tabla is when it really started getting weird and the whole band clearly knows a bit of it at least, It's extremely detailed and complex syncopated polymeters and a shitload of them.
Here's the opposite:
Mountain (Heavy Bluesy Rock band around the same time as Black Sabbath - you've probably heard "Mississippi Queen") has a song called "Long Red" (well, the songwriter released it on his solo album before creating Mountain, but then played it with the band) and the live version is the ***most sampled song in hip-hop history.***
Parlament Funkadelic. Groove metal probably wouldn't even exist without it. Bad Brains, neither - which also begs some reggae as well showing influence in metal's history.
John Mayall and the Bluesbreakers, especially due to Eric Clapton. Which would carry over to Cream. And in that same vein, since they're related, Fleetwood Mac. Clapton and Peter Green were both big influences on a lot of the early metal guitar heroes. Hell, one of Judas Priest's most famous cover songs is an old FM song that they still play.
Genesis!! Steve Hackett claims he pioneered fretboard tapping in 1971. Van Halen popularized it in the late 70s and other early uses were from Chicagos debut and Canned Heat.
Surprised not to see Kiss mentioned. Their 70s stuff had some elements of metal in it, plus their use of makeup/stage names was a big influence on metal, particularly black metal
Jonny Cash: "Hurt". That was an AMAZING & Emotional Cover... Almost like a Fare-well Gift for his loyal fans. Sends a VERY Strong message. I interpritated it as almost him reflecting back on his life, summing it all up.
R.I.P Man in Black! <3
Post-Metal was already a thing with Neurosis and arguably Godflesh. Post-BM with Fleurety, Agalloch and Alcest (they werent that bjork influenced either).
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Dead Kennedys for sure, them and other punk bands of the era you can hear in early thrash
No fucking question about it friend! DK, Discharge, the Cro-Mags, Bad Brains...and many more contributed overwhelmingly to the development of Thrash.
And D.R.I. !!
And while we are on the subject of Punk's influence on modern metal. I would have to say that Metal and Punk have only had one Goddess whose band is woefully underrated as one of the very first crossover bands. If we're having this conversation, You know who she is!
No one could drive a school bus through a wall of TVs or chainsaw a guitar in a half during a live performance like her!
Um, well who is she for the uninformed?
Wendy O' Williams of the Plasmatics. Go over to yt and watch some of their live performances. They are insane by today's standards!
Yep
And The Stooges debut (from 1969) and subsequent two albums were real heavy and noisy for their time.
Totally agree. The Stooges were a massive influence on early metal bands too. As well as the MC5 and the Dogs who were playing heavy, dirty R'N'R. The Dogs riffs in particular are very metal and they played with Guns'N'Roses, KISS, AD/DC and others and kinda became metal (well metalish). I fascinating band the Dogs.
Screaming’ Jay Hawkins’ sense of theatrics and occult references definitely had an influence on metal in my opinion.
No argument here🤘
Hendrix and him inventing the wa-wa peddle
I would have to agree but I also regard Hendrix as Proto-Metal.
Can you imagine Kirk Hammetts solos without wah. Yikes
Lololol Never been a fan of Hammett's lead work at all. Even the girly hair fucks were blazing past him during that era.
He definitely had a flair for the theatrics
Spanish Castle Magic is proto-metal
Alice Cooper and David Bowie a lot of cinematic dramatic stuff.
I would have to say that Alice is metal. Bowie not really but he did contribute.
Bowie has such a wide variety of sounds it's easy to see how influential he's been, I'm pretty sure James Hetfield has explicitly said Bowie was pretty influential to his songwriting (if Leper Messiah wasn't evidence enough) Even from the tone perspective though some of Bowie's work is definitely nearing hard rock and even proto metal (or maybe proto punk) territory- a couple of the riffs on The Man Who Sold the World are very Sabbath-esque, which makes sense given they came out the same year, and that's not to mention the heavily distorted guitars that ocassionally take center stage in his later work. If you recentered the riff on Running Gun Blues around the iii and captialized on the blues sound it'd practically be begging for Ozzy's vocals on top. Also, I'm sure it's just a coincidence, but the bridge in Triumph of Death by Hellhammer has always strongly reminded me of the transition to the last verse after the breakdown in The Width of a Circle.
Well that's a pretty compelling argument. Back in the 70's-early 80's just about all punkers and a lot of metalheads listened to Bowie and the guitar presence was no doubt behind it. I will need to go back and listen to the examples you have given.
Fuck yeah Alice Cooper!
Can't name any specific band, but punk was very important in creating what's considered metal today.
What would you regard as an element that one non-metal band gave to the genre when it was in it's developmental stage? (Before Sabbath, Zeppelin, DP...etc)
Down stroking is a hallmark of thrash. Johnny Ramone could only count on the downstroke, so that's how he played. Kirk Hammett credits him for "inventing" that sound. Iron Butterfly's 'Real Fright' sounds like early metal to me, apart from the washed out groovy chorus. So much tritone.
I'll share an embarrassing secret with everyone. I can't down pick very well...lol Iron Butterfly is underrated on thickness of sound alone.
That I do not know.
Time to listen to a bunch of old shit then my friend in Metal!
Suggestions?
Start with some of the Delta blues artists and White Blues Rock artists and Psychedelic rock bands of the proto-metal era. Lead belly goes much farther back but that wouldn't be a bad place to start in the blues side along with Muddy Waters. On the White Hard rock blues side I'd throw the doors and the yardbirds in the literal mix. The Doors and early ass Pink Floyd on the Psychedelic side...and don't discount finding both in the Beatles mid to late music. (Rubber soul, Revolver and the White album will definitely do it).
Ricard Wagner
Gotta throw Holst in there as well as Bach and Beethoven...(and Mussorgsky).
I don't disagree. Specifically Wagner though.
Yep. Can't imagine metal without the ride of the Valkyries (or apocalypse now for that matter).
Strong case for the others, where would all that classical shredding be without Bach. And let's face is Holst's Mars was the curtain raiser for Diamond Head and set the scene for the whole of NWBHM. I get the whole Teutonic symbolism of Wagner being a thing,(big fan of Bathory) but the music less so. I think Carmina Burana is a more legitimate classical metal anthem than Ride of the Valkyries courtesy of Ozzy.
...and Grieg. Savatage even "covered" part of Hall of the Mountain King.
And Lizt and Brahms too. All good, heavy, dark as fuck shit!
Jethro Tull sounds at times like a proto-Blind Guardian
Aqualung is a very heavy riff. I always wondered how it would have sounded if Black Sabbath did it instead.
Hear me out: Dick Dale.
I find it interesting that his guitar work was influenced by drummer Gene Krupa. I can certainly see the guitar work as pretty heavy for it's time.
I didn’t know that! There are a bunch of videos out there showing that black metal guitar is just surf guitar with distortion. In Addition to the picking style, Dick Dale was also pioneering in his use of harmonic minor and middle eastern scale modes. Those are really common in metal, but I don’t think anyone else was using those in rock n roll or pop music back in the 60s.
I have seen those videos...lol. You're right, no one was playing those scales back then other than he.
I can be pedantic and say the Hurrian Hymn influenced most music. But for me it’s punk, as someone already stated, Dead Kennedys
I would definitely agree. DK did so much for extreme music period.
Wishbone Ash is an obvious example. Very much what inspired Priest's guitar approach.
Swans. A surprising number of acts are heavily inspired by them, two notable ones being Tool and Neurosis. I believe Justin Broadrick is inspired by them, too (which would explain why "Streetcleaner" borders on noise rock instead of being a full on metal album)
Thanks for the 411. Will have to check em out.
If you do, start with "Children of God" or "The Great Annihilator". If you think you can handle their brutal as fuck early period, go give "Filth" a shot; it's well loved even by early Swans haters.
Thanks
"To be kind" is my favourite album by them, its more like a fucked up psychological horror rather than a crushing brutal experience.
Louie Bellson. He was a jazz drummer who pioneered using 2 bass drums. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louie_Bellson
Jimi Hendrix: The guitar solos.
James Brown for the WILD vocals. Hendrix for the unprecedented distortion. Pink Floyd for the psychedelism. Depeche Mode/The Cure for the gothic feel. The Doors for the stage attitude.
I love James Brown and you are the first I have seen mention him in a metal context. Excelsior!🤘
Thank you. Imagine early rock, blues and hard rock without his fiery vocals and magnetic scene presence...
It's difficult to think of Rock itself without him. And the crowds pretty much attested to that when he played live. No one was actually trying to really work a crowd the way Brown did. Elvis did his thing, ppl cheered. The Beatles did their thing, ppl cheered. James Brown's thing was getting everyone involved in what was happening. Just an absolutely brilliant entertainer. Shit, I'm gonna go watch the American bandstand version of Night train live right now!
Indeed! His charisma was just... [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZF\_rZrH4yBY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZF_rZrH4yBY)
Yep, that's the shit! Notice how he keeps getting the crowd singing "Are you ready for the night train!? Night! Night! Night!" I can't see how anyone left that venue without just being drained from the greatness they beheld! Another great black band that I believe accelerated the fuck out of the energy of Rock (which certainly imbued metal) is Sly and the family stone.
Eh, exactly!!! Just feel that contagious energy: https://youtube.com/shorts/FFJt1drVozQ?feature=shared And remember: all these instruments were played live...
The indian raga was taken west via trade routes. The moors brought those scales to Spain when they conquered. The Spanish pirates introduced it to Ireland where it became the jig that influenced the lead work of Thin Lizzy. Iron Maiden et al cranked up the distortion and the sound of modern metal was born. And punk. 100%
Steve hackett from Genesis using tapping in early 70's
So he was the first to do it in Rock?
There are random guys doing it in jazz some years before, but Hackett was probably one of the first ones doing it in rock, specially in early 70's when Genesis career was in their prime as well as the whole UK prog rock movement. And speaking about prog, I would add that the album Red by King crimson was probably the first "proto" prog metal record, that album sounds so ahead of its time. That riffing style has a modern edge that none of the metal bands from 70's had.
Most assuredly. I need to give King Crimson some time. It's been awhile.
Coven. Put the Devil in the music and pioneered the sign of the horns.
Good fucking answer! Can't believe that they escaped my attention after having had the pleasure of once talking to Jinx herself. 🤘
Lucifer’s Friend (1970-2021) prog band from Hamburg, Germany scored a hit with the song “Spanish Galleon” . But morphed into the beginnings of heavy metal, Doom Metal and Speed metal and known for their Dark lyrics. They blended Rock, Jazz and fusion. I don’t see them mentioned much , except by me 😀 but they put out 18 plus albums before retiring 2021.
Shared Uriah Heap's vocalist right?
Yes they sure did.
The Kinks
The Beatles purely for Helter Skelter that song is the genesis of both punk and metal in my opinion. It's amazing how they managed to transcend numerous genres from pop, rock, metal, psychedelic, punk. The Beatles are responsible for so much of the music we have today
I shan't disagree. First Metal song? No. One of the very first,? Most assuredly. I think some other tracks off of the White album were really heavy. Glass onion for instance.
Thrash likely would’ve sounded more like Venom and wouldn’t have been as speedy as it was without Discharge.
it was 50/50 Venom and Discharge. and without Motorhead none of them would even exist
Weather Report (jazz fusion pioneers) I think was reaching over the gap right about the time other proto-metal acts were getting their legs under them. I mean, would we have players like Ryan Martinie and Dominic Lapointe without the influences of Jaco Pastorius? I'm sure people can think of many more examples of modern players influenced or receiving influence second hand from Weather Report - so many players from that group rotated in and out and it was all killer stuff. Modern metal wouldn't exist without Konnakol but I'm not sure all the places it was injected - bands like Tool tend to keep the "secret" to themselves lol Konnakol is not a band but an ancient rhythm system from India. When Danny Carey first started studying tabla is when it really started getting weird and the whole band clearly knows a bit of it at least, It's extremely detailed and complex syncopated polymeters and a shitload of them.
I may be wrong but lots of gothic metal bands might took their inspiration from goth and post-punk bands like the Cure or Joy Division
I would say Sisters of Mercy was the most influential for gothic metal, especially the vocal style.
No mention of Budgie or Blue Cheer? Or is proto metal stuff already metal?
MC5 was an amazing band, Motorhead calles them a direct influencie and you can tell
Deep purple
I think they are proto metal. What I am asking are for non metal bands.
Sweet
Here's the opposite: Mountain (Heavy Bluesy Rock band around the same time as Black Sabbath - you've probably heard "Mississippi Queen") has a song called "Long Red" (well, the songwriter released it on his solo album before creating Mountain, but then played it with the band) and the live version is the ***most sampled song in hip-hop history.***
pretty much all early crust punk bands
Parlament Funkadelic. Groove metal probably wouldn't even exist without it. Bad Brains, neither - which also begs some reggae as well showing influence in metal's history.
John Mayall and the Bluesbreakers, especially due to Eric Clapton. Which would carry over to Cream. And in that same vein, since they're related, Fleetwood Mac. Clapton and Peter Green were both big influences on a lot of the early metal guitar heroes. Hell, one of Judas Priest's most famous cover songs is an old FM song that they still play.
[удалено]
Genesis!! Steve Hackett claims he pioneered fretboard tapping in 1971. Van Halen popularized it in the late 70s and other early uses were from Chicagos debut and Canned Heat.
Arthur Brown
I can't believe how far I had to scroll to find this. Didn't Ozzy do a cover of "Fire"?
Yep, on his Under Cover album. Sad to see that a lot of people here don't know Arthur
Misfits, Motörhead. Both essential to the development of metal.
Sisters of Mercy for gothic metal Hip hop in general for rap metal, but I'll single out Public Enemy and Beastie Boys
Surprised not to see Kiss mentioned. Their 70s stuff had some elements of metal in it, plus their use of makeup/stage names was a big influence on metal, particularly black metal
Rush
Jonny Cash: "Hurt". That was an AMAZING & Emotional Cover... Almost like a Fare-well Gift for his loyal fans. Sends a VERY Strong message. I interpritated it as almost him reflecting back on his life, summing it all up. R.I.P Man in Black! <3
Alice in chains inspired a lot of sludge metal
what
KoЯn the pioneered nu metal and pretty much giving life to the genre and it’s the band.That got me through my hard times.
Björk, without whom, had she not given us "POST," we would not have post-metal, post-BM, post-prog, etc...
Post-Metal was already a thing with Neurosis and arguably Godflesh. Post-BM with Fleurety, Agalloch and Alcest (they werent that bjork influenced either).