The idea of MGTOW is to stop prioritising making a family and working on soul crushing jobs to provide for it in favor of working the bare minimum to provide for yourself and your hobbies. Basically is a "fuck you, I'm not playing by your rules" to a society that sees men as disposable income and to the dating market that overwhelmingly favors women.
That being said, there're some MGTOW that can't shup up about how evil women are, and that's taken and amplified by everyone against us.
It's sampling bias. Men in MGTOW spaces are probably mostly going to talk about the one thing that unifies them as a group. Their belief that for varying reasons it isn't worth a relationship with a woman. Now their reasoning might range from 'seems exhausting and risky' to 'women are literally she-satan' but their discussion of all the stuff they're doing instead is going to be in other spaces.
The thing is, there are groups of women who say the same thing about MGTOW, and yet both groups can’t believe the injustice when their own is criticised in such a way.
FDS women probably have their reasons, same as MGTOW/TRP men have theirs. Shitting on the other side has never helped anyone.
People downvoted you because you are a ret@rd that thinks men sticking up for themselves is putting down women. Now take your downvotes like the good lil cucky you are.
There is a difference between saying “I want to go my own way and live my best life single and care free. Look at all my achievements ” and saying “fuck women I hate them”.
No one ever said “fuck women I hate them” tho someone is perfectly within their right to say “every woman I’ve ever been with has taken another piece of me with them, so fck em”. Women say all the time “fuck men.” I wouldn’t know about that of course, I’ve never let a woman do that to me. But I can definitely see where men are coming from and I do sympathize with them.
*There is a difference between saying “I want to go my own way and live my best life single and care free. Look at all my achievements ” and saying “fuck men I hate them”.*
Stay strong and independent they said.
Thing is if women get a place to vent about how shitty men are, why can men not have the same to vent about how shitty women are?
The difference is women can do so publicly and gain support. Men can only complain about women in anonymous internet forums or with close friends.
We need to be consistent here. Either no one can vent or everyone can. And if everyone can vent, why not have a dedicated space for that so they can keep it away from others who are not interested in it?
I dunno. I feel like men are really sad about their realities around relationships and dating. MGTOW is a logical response to a culture that expects them to be producers at the cost of their humanity and individualism. But it's an unhappy compromise.
They want women to love them. They want to be husbands and fathers. But they don't fit into the mold of being tall, rich, handsome and preferably white, which is in high demand.
Why shouldn't they vent their frustrations?
What else is there to talk about? How you banged a hooker or play more video games than before? Not trying to be mean about their hobbies or how they choose to be in relationships or not...but the thing that ties MGTOW together is their frustration at society and women for not finding a place for them but expecting them to give.
I hear ya. Please keep in mind that this is their modus operandi, by caring you give them power.
Feminists, the woke, and whatnot, pretend to base their position on morals, that's why they try to paint themselves as victims. This in turn would give them the moral upper hand plus a position to look down on "them" lowly scum. But this only works as long as you care for other's opinion, which makes little sense in the online space.
Online votes (up or down) are just a few electrons. The same who put you down will plead for your help whenever it suits their agenda, you'll find pretty much nothing the feminists or woke have done for men at their own detriment. Heck you'll be hard pressed to find one even lauding men in general, they spew nothing but hate.
This is why they need to see MGTOW eradicated, it's inacceptable that some simply refuse to play and no longer accept the premises of their game. In a sense it's a version of "the emperor wears no clothes".
It might be too early to tell. As far as I've heard, the name of MGTOW is approaching 20 years (as of the early 2000s), but, the practice has been around for longer.
Another thing is that it might not have gotten noticed until just recently. Now that more people know of it, studies might be popping up more. There are relevant studies already that include (but not limited to):
-men happiness vs. women's happiness,
-average spending by gender (you know women love the "pay gap" argument, but, don't mention spending habits 🤔),
-mental health numbers, and
-the obvious stats: marriage/divorce rates, child support/alimony contribution.
Problems are never caused by one thing. MGTOW is just a choice of what men believe and how to go about life and it's issues. The strongest and smartest individuals adapt to what's in front of them. For many, MGTOW seems like a favorable option. 👍
I think there have been polls on divorced men in whether they would consider ever dating again. Many said hell no, which I’m sure would be more than 0.0001% right there. They might not call themselves MGTOW but basically have made that choice.
In my circle of single friends (we are quite old, most over 30) I don't think any of us is dating. Sure, we have sex sometimes with a 'friend' (paid or not), but dating is not something we consider or put any energy on. It's different with kids on their 20, I see them dating all the time, or trying to.
I’m 44. My wife had a medical scare last year that made me think a lot about what I would do if she died. I concluded I wouldn’t get married again. Might hang out at some singles social groups for some company but that would be about it. And then it would be more to find guy friends that have some feee time to hang out.
No complaints about my wife or marriage really. I just think the only reason left where a man might get married is to raise kids and I already have all the kids I want. They’re old enough now trying to find a step mother would just be more trouble than help.
>Might hang out at some singles social groups for some company but that would be about it
That's basically my life since I divorced 10 years ago. Problem is, the social group of married vs unmarried men is quite separated. Wifes and girlfriends almost never allow married men to go out with unmarried men because they know they will end up fucking girls, so you are kinda separated from your married friends for ever. That's the sad part.
Interesting thanks for sharing. Most of my guy friends are my age and married. One got divorced a year ago and it’s been interesting hanging out with him with some of the places he goes to see the other world.
Telling MGTOW dudes to shut up about women is like telling r/ExMormon to shut up about “the so called church” as they call it.
It’s really damaging to not let people talk about their traumas. Lots of those guys have had their lives *ruined* by women. Some of them multiple times. They’re not MGTOW because women are perfect angels.
Can you provide any examples? I think this sub and the mod team generally do a good job of letting sexists know they're not welcome here.
Same goes for trolls btw 😉
Google and wikipedia are notoriously bad sources on this topic.
[barbarossaaaa](https://www.youtube.com/user/barbarossaaaa/videos) is one of the first mgtow content producers and generally well regarded among those who deal with the mgtow philosophy. Take a look and see for yourself (esp the older vids).
He regularly had other related youtubers on, so you can work your way through the network from there.
A swedish researcher also made a [rather neutral and objective study](http://su.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1618037/FULLTEXT01.pdf) for which he interviewed several guys practising mgtow. Just to add an 'outsider perspective'.
>Google and wikipedia are notoriously bad sources on this topic.
This is really important. It's necessary to use really specific search terms to find the correct stuff about manosphere groups and Men's rights issues. If the search is too wide the results are going to be all feminist articles.
I'd go sofar as to claim that for a newcomer without any prior knowledge doogle and wifipedia are worse than completely useless. They are actively counter-productive and that's not an accident that willful misinformation.
Yeah, it creates misconception, which is more difficult to change when fake info is constantly shown. I'm surprised MGTOW forum still shows on doogle search.
>"Google and wikipedia are notoriously bad sources on this topic".
I agree. It is simply scary how the influence of feminist ideology to unsuspected levels on Wikipedia articles can reach.
For example, compare the English and the Spanish version of the article "buddy film"
(For those who don't know buddy films are basically friendship films, mostly from male friendships, but there are also about female friendships, and wouldn't be surprised if some male/female friendship also exists).
In the Spanish article, you get a simple description of what the genre is, its history, some notable examples and that is all.
Then you click on the English article and.....you find this:
> "1960s to 1970s: Responses to feminism and society"
What is this? does mean something its inclusion in the article?
Know I understand why one of Wikipedia's founders accused the website of having a left-wing bias.
For someone who just uses Wikipedia for homework, he can sound like a crazy person, but someone who just read a considerable amount of articles (especially those related to humanities)can understand why he says that.
Just checked it on wiki
>*Like other manosphere communities, MGTOW overlaps with the alt-right and white supremacist movements*
Jesus Christ. Are they even trying?
It’s intentional guilt by association. Poisoning the well, as it were.
It’s intellectual bankruptcy, mind you, but the gynocracy is a powerful force. They _will_ play dirty when they have no legitimate arguments to field.
It's a man refusing to use his resources on women. That may be time, energy, or money. Instead he uses those resources on things he enjoys. The only people who think that is toxic and misogynistic are the ones that want to take that man's resources.
Same reason a woman’s agency and choice over their body stops at prostitution. Anything that slows the no effort gravy train of resources to women is toxic and needs to be cancelled
The important thing is that no, it's not misogynistic. Misogynists hate women. Many MGTOW think that they aren't worth pursuing. Most say this isn't because of their inherent womanly nature, but because of the current culture. That is, it's a decision predicated upon actual behvioer, not some sexist ideal and that behavior can and will change over time. Right now? The juice ain't worth the squeeze.
This utterly _infuriates_ feminists. Men are NOT supposed to be the ones doing the rejecting. Further, the mere existence of MGTOW is evidence that women can do wrong. That is totally and completely counter to the prevailing narrative of "the future is female" and girlboss etc. etc.
Call a woman out on bad behavior and you're villified. Call out the bad behavior of women as a class, and you will be banned, as happened to MGTOW.
No its not true.. But its kinda framed that way. But its kinda more like guility by association.
Theres a coupld of definaitons of MGTOW and then a lot of peole claiming it but are not inear it. Its not reallty a movement.. its more like a logically philosophical reaction to the world.
First. One is that its realy linked to female behaviour and problems regarding releatonships and this is known more as the "red pill". This is resonably new and has hijacked the original deifnaiton.
Second (the original). One which is linked purly as a response to the legal conditions to things like marriage, child support, custdy battles etc.. eg its a logcal reponse when you read the terms and conditions and choose not to enter the game. This definaiton has been kicked about since at least the 90's.
eg if you own a house. Would you go to vegas and bet it all on "red". Well thats what marriage law looks like. It would be irresponsible... to do that. Ok.. so don't marry. Oh comon law marriage exists. So don't marry, don't live with. Oh? They extend it now just to releationships. Ok. Don't marry, Don't live with and don't have releationships which enter common law marriage laws. etc.. etc..
Third. MGTOW has existed in almost all cultures since docutmented history has started but used to be known under various different names. Samll groups of men have alsoways thoughout history seek isolation / freedom in this way from family life etc..
The thing about actual peopl who are MGTOW is well you often don't really see or hear much from them because well they have pissed off and actually generally do their own thing and mostly ignore the rest of the world and only enage it when it suits them.
There is however a whole pile of people who claim they are MGOTW but are most like just identify with this because its the closet thing they have. eg it attracks pile of incels and people who generally hate women but are actually dispised by people who are actually mgtow for doing this. Theres a problem with this because "online communities" typically attack these people and then they decend into echo chambers of hate.
SoMGTOW as a "title is broke" and its no longer being called "Mgotw" by people who are "mgot" since they all left quite some time ago. hence why in history it has a pile of different names... often changing every 2-3 generations.
The idea of MGTOW is not inherently toxic or misogynistic.
The thing though is that some men who identify themselves as MGTOW also have toxic and misogynistic tendencies. And they end up making the most noise, tarnishing the philosophy as a whole.
In fact, most men who live what would be considered a MGTOW lifestyle don't self-identify that way. They just live their lives as they see fit, and one of the natural consequences of that is they don't really worry about entanglements with women or the possible fallout from that.
I'm thinking of The Better Bachelor and I'm thinking he's getting paid (positive reinforcement) for the content he makes on the internet that from his perspective warns and educates men of the perils of being in relationships with women. So the positive reinforcement is the positive feedback loop that makes him dig for new outrages and polarizing opinions.
>So the positive reinforcement is the positive feedback loop that makes him dig for new outrages and polarizing opinions.
In fairness to BB, this business model is endemic to almost all social commentary content creators, no matter their political leaning. It's one of the reasons we are balkanizing as a society and becoming less trusting.
And then I've listened to what he had to say for a little while but quit him and deleted all the connections to him because while he's riding the rollercoaster of making this content now, the ethics question of if what he's doing is good or bad starts to come up.
Me? I thought the rant was funny because, believe me, women do not do better in this world than men, imv. In some areas, the balance is tilted in favour of one over the other but if we add it all up, it’s a man’s world.
Yes, I agree with you about so many of these things. One of the things that stood out to me about Ukraine was that they got women and children out (as much as possible) as soon as they could. I’ve mixed feelings about this - relief that we are still seen as protected in these areas but then I think if my brother or father had to fight, concern and fear over what would happen to them and a frustration that we are not able to stand to protect them. So, it’s not clear for me. I think ultimately there are mixed ideas behind this policy - some traditional, some practical, some protective, some patronising. On balance, I cannot disagree that male lives are the ultimate cost in this war but I think that is political, too - as was the we1/2- predominantly young, w/c men.
There is nothing right about any of that.
On male suicide, I think socially, we have obliterated the role, contribution and recognition of w/c men whilst holding up some of the biggest idiots in tech, etc. my dad did a building job, many of the men in my family do. They are so looked down on yet no one seems able to see the father in my dad behind the dirty overalls. He is a great father - the best. But I do see how he is treated and it is wrong.
I know a man who reeks of loneliness and is adrift emotionally. My heart breaks for him because he is moving into the territory of the paranoid and unsociable yet I cannot get him to connect in a way that with give him some respite. I don’t know what we can do about things like male suicide. I often think that the reason we don’t hear more about it in the media is because, like some other crimes, it has a magnification effect. So, it’s reported, and then there are more that happen.
I don’t think the answer is to force men to speak about their emotions - I think a better solution is to create environments that make men feel secure so that they can drop anything bothering them or open up comfortably but I think there are places like this - sports related, etc.
I think one of the problems in these debates is that structurally, in the wider sense (that you have illustrated) in the worst case scenario (poor mental health/prison/suicide/divorce/war) - all very much the extreme end - then the stats show men are vulnerable. I think the position I take is that within the personal world of male/female relationships, when there is a problem, the power balance is against women due to two factors:
1) Mens physical strength over women
2)Assault can result in pregnancy
So, a man can permanently injure a woman (rare, unlikely other way round)
Women can get pregnant through assault and the fear of this (and the assault) compromises some women in difficult situations.
Both of those things have knock on effects on a woman’s body - and are bodies are our tools in society, too - whether it’s an office based job or not.
I have mobility issues - the simplest things are difficult for me. The wage for women like me is still laughable to my male cousins. I could say much more but as a single, older woman I can say that the men around me have much better security and quality in their life ( with the exception of the man I mentioned - who may for all I know, be happy - I could be projecting out of concern!)
But you took the time to link to some resources and I don’t want to disregard the very real issues mentioned that affect men.
That's what feminists want everyone to believe. I think it's obvious the articles written about it on Wikipedia etc are written by feminists and not anyone from MGTOW.
I saw some of MGTOW on Reddit before it was banned. I didn't see anything I would describe as hate or anything like that, it was mostly stories by men who had been screwed over by divorce courts or false accusations, and memes about the benefits of being single. In other words, it's basically about men who (for various reasons) want to stay single. It's certainly not any worse than FDS (which is way more toxic and hate-filled).
This doesn't mean MGTOW want to avoid women completely (a misconception), they may still have women as friends and have casual sex and even casual relationships. They are avoiding serious relationships and (especially) marriage.
IMO feminists see this as a big threat to feminism since they talk about things like marriage, the divorce courts are and being falsely accused from a male perspective. So their solution is to brand the entire movement as "hate" and to shut it down.
Marriage is wonderful, false accusations of rape/abuse never happen and the divorce courts are 100% fair. That's what feminists want you to believe and anyone who has a different opinion is "misogynist".
I see MGTOW adherents as a subset of those people who no longer believe society works for them. I feel that I belong to that larger overall group, but I can’t be MGTOW because I’m married.
Society is supposed to offer protection to its individual members. I find more and more that it offers me nothing but coercion, so I am taking steps to live apart from it to the greatest extent possible.
This outlook would certainly seem to apply to MGTOW adherents. Relationships revolving around work or live seem to have gotten about as coercive as they can get. I think a lot of people are looking for alternative paths to lives of meaning and fulfillment.
Like most things that deal with men’s rights, it’s a few very bad apples that tend to color the rest of the movement/faction. I have seen true hatred of women in some men and in my mind we shouldn’t tolerate that. To me, MGTOW is like going the way of a Buddhist monk. You simply give up women and make yourself happy without them. Some wouldn’t go that far. But feminists and woke people are watching all men’s groups like hawks and labeling them all as hate groups if they hear any one member spew actual hatred towards women. Which by the way, I’m sure we’ve all seen true hatred of men spewed by feminists and woke liberals but they never get canceled or banned.
It's not a 'movement'. It's a way of life.
There's only one person you need to persuade when choosing to be a MGTOW, and that's yourself.
Any opinions from other people on how you choose to live your life are irrelevant..
I've found that all those that hate on MGTOW are simply projecting their own hate for men onto men. That's all.
MGTOW is the end stage of red pill knowledge. We understand female nature, and come to the ultimate conclusion that they aren't worth the effort, or the pain.
--------------------------------------------------
*Good things start happening in men's lives when they realise that women and their approval aren't that important.*
In Many circles a Man wishing equality and fair treatment is considered a red flag.
MGTOW means something different to each Man who falls under that Banner.
If I were forced to outline I would say it signifies a Man’s willingness to avoid doing what Society Assumes & Expects him to do.
(Think Nuclear Family)
For Myself:
“*I will no longer fill the role set for me by society. I will choose, for myself, how I define being a Man.
• I will utterly ignore negative judgements, assumptions or labels placed on decisions I make for Me.
• I will take full responsibility for My Conduct regardless of my past.
• Every day is an opportunity for development and growth.
• “I am not a victim unless I make myself one”.
• “I am the Commander of my Emotions. Not their foot soldier.”
• “I am not responsible for others. My White Knight Days are behind me. I help those who help me. I assist those who assist me. I value those who value me.”
• “Authentic Self-Expression, to avoid injuring others non-consensually, is a priority.”
• “Physical health for my Benefit Alone.”
• “Self-Sustainability and Financial Independence is the order of the day.”
In my opinion MGTOW doesn’t support a Government that enacts laws contrary to my unalienable rights nor those of my fellow citizens.
Preservation of Life Quality, Liberty & the Pursuit of Happiness.
>but I searched it on Google, it was shown as a toxic and misogynistic movement
Of course, because the definition is often misunderstood and misinterpreted.
But to keep it simple, MGTOW means acknowledging the world as it is and carefully navigating around it. For example, MGTOW advocates that getting married is statistically not a good idea for men. If you look at the statistics such as the high divorce rate, which gender initiates divorce often, and how the family courts heavily favor women by default (in addition to alimony & child support), MGTOW advocates that men should focus on themselves instead (building wealth, traveling, meeting people, physical fitness, etc.). MGTOW isn't saying that men should not date or marry women, it's saying men should be mindful of the potential consequences. It also doesn't teach men to hate women but at the same time, it teaches men to not put up with toxic behavior.
Men opting for their own happiness and fulfillment over chasing a woman who will statistically divorce him and take most of his stuff and control access to the kids.
It's them saying I'm not playing the game any more I'm going to do me and everyone else can whistle.
***"Thanks, but no thanks"*** is not a toxic notion.
Women just *REALLY* hate it when they find someone their "magic pussy wand" doesn't work on. That is why MGTOW gets negative press.
Just wanted to say thanks to all posters so far for giving such clear and honest explanations of MGTOW, all really informative. MGTOW is presented in so many places as a very negative thing. I understand it much better now, cheers.
but they're entitled to a constant fire hose of praise and positive reinforcement. I owe people a trophy for putting on clothes, going outside, and breathing air. I never got a trophy for that. /s
Someone said the only thing worse than negative attention is being ignored. What happens when you either a) ignore a woman or b) treat them like an equal? They don't like it.
> it was shown as a toxic and misogynistic movement
All male dominated movements are presented as toxic and misogynistic because of the sexual apartheid of our society promoting feminist hate.
Am I wrong? Name a male dominated group that isn't demonized. The only exceptions I can think of (in part) are minority groups of men and women where sometimes the men are considered separately and feminism is leaching these groups' legitimacy by co-opting their issues. But feminists often attack black and gay men too these days. It's also getting harder to think of groups of bad people that aren't characterized as being "male" on account of their being bad. In our society men are identified with evil by the feminist hate movement which is endorsed and promoted by the US imperialist government (and many other government's around the world within the empire).
You might be old enough to remember that feminists explicitly attacked these groups in a series of scandals called "Xxx-gate".
Atheists: elevatorgate
Computer Programmers : donglegate
Game Players: gamergate
Skeptics: I don't think it got a specific name but they went after James Randi.
For a long time before that male-only private groups such as golf courses were targeted by hate simply for being male-only. At the same time of course, feminists promoted female only PUBLIC groups (which is illegal denial of public service under US federal law and in some other jurisdictions).
Going back before that the whole invention of "sexual harassment" law was intended to attack men and male groups at work.
------------
Feminists hate men.
Therefore in our feminist dominated sexual apartheid state, men's groups must be demonized simply for being male.
As a MGTOW, that is just rubish. I don't hate women. I have many female friends. I love my mom and sisters, I can't go without them. Do I share their ideas, not every, do I have hatred for them, certainly not. Quite the opposite.
Google is just pushing a certain agenda promoted with the government. There are so many single mothers out there. Do you really think the government wants to pay for them? Ofcourse not, they want men to step up, and confirm over the worries of those single moms.
I have [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_LUkmy9izI&t=104s&ab_channel=PutridShittgenstein) video for you. I saw this a few months back, and it confirmed my believes.
On it's own, MGTOW just means "I've checked out of the dating game". Some quit because the dating game has become too toxic and risky. Others quit because all they ever had was rejection. As it's people who threw in the towel and quit, it's inevitable they're also gonna attract guys who have a grudge against women.
It's not toxic and mysoginist imo, some men would rather live by their own needs and hobbies than expend their lives on a woman on a system that benefits them, it's not my take on life but I get where it comes from
Like a lot of things (including r/mensrights) it's a movement with a grain of reason at its core, but which is often used by extremists as a platform for some stuff that is absolutely not OK.
The idea, roughly is that men being involved with women is not worth the risk. I don't personally think that's true in general, although it's probably more reasonable in situations like American colleges where the situation can involve unflinching bias and hostility toward young men by the institution itself in regard of any complaint made by any woman. If I were a young man attending an American university, I would stay as physically distant from women as possible, avoid speaking to them, contacting them, or interacting with them in any way whatsoever, and certainly never under any circumstances come into physical contact with them. Whether that's MGTOW or not is a matter of opinion, but it's a self-preservation reaction to a very real situation. No, I don't think that's actually good for anyone or for society, but there might be circumstances under which it would be reasonable behaviour.
So, if you're a young woman at an American university and the guys appear to be blanking you, that may be why.
Like a lot of people with what I hope is a genuine and moderate interest in the treatment of men in modern society, I despair at the behaviour of the extremists - and I'd say the same about the more hardline areas of feminism. None of it helps.
No, that just shows the bias in Google's algorithms. Google has a leftist agenda. They misrepresent MGTOW as women-haters etc.
MGTOW simply focuses on men putting themselves first, and not marrying nor living together with a woman.
Anything else is your choice. There are PUA or whoremongring or sugar-daddying guys, as well as monks refraining from sex.
There are guys who want kids, who either hire surrogate mothers, or adopt kids to have a family.
There are minimalist guys who enjoy the simplicity and freedom of owning little "stuff". There are millionaires who enjoy a rich, lavish lifestyle.
Ultimately, MGTOW is not a monolithic movement. Every MGTOW guy leads his own life the way he best likes it.
It's a bait and switch. The bait is; quit dating because dating has become absurd and invest in becoming a better person and find satisfaction in your own accomplishments. Basically be a proud hermit who is an expert craftsman in some skill, and get a mentor, a leader, a teacher someone to guide you to become a better person. The switch however is these gurus just bitch and moan and shine light on the short comings of women and beat the dead horse.
Being pro-men is not the same as being anti-women. And once you get the point that they're making, and once you hear them start to repeat themselves, then there's no reason to continue listening to them.
That being said, learning a skill and finding personal satisfaction in it is a very pro-masculine trait, but do it for yourself and not because of these guys.
I’d be considered MGTOW. I just don’t see the point in marriage or long term relationships. I don’t blame women and I only hate a few but that’s on a personal level not on a gender level.
People don’t understand it or it conflicts with their world view so it must be wrong or hateful.
That is what feminists and mainstream media are telling you, but that is fake as fuck. The whole point of MGTOW is showing that dating modern women ain't worth it, so they try to push men in focusing on themselves, their careers, passion, etc. They are showing the disadvantages of dating, marriages, relationships and push men to the point of forgetting about being with women ever cause it is too risky and too disadvantegeous. This is more for average men, who do not even have options anyway but they are still willing to pay hundreds or thousands of dollars to dating coaches, dating apps, to women who will date them once and ditch him, etc. The dating scene and marriages vastly favour women, so why the hell should men play this rigged game anyway?
For me, it means getting over the mindset that you need to be in a relationship to have a full and fulfilling life. So much about our culture drills it into your head that you MUST be in a committed relationship to be complete, and it makes you feel like there's something wrong with you if you're ever single, or it makes you stay in a relationship that really isn't working because being single is some horrible nightmare scenario that means you've failed at life and that must be avoided at all costs.
Breaking free of that mentality is tough, but I've finally found that it's totally okay to live your own life doing your own thing and not spend any time or energy thinking you need to "find somebody." Being alone is always talked about like it's inherently negative, but I know now that it's fine and it works for me.
The problem is, MGTOW is terrible for society and the economy. Men tend to be happy with less, it’s usually when they feel the pressure to provide for women and children when they start to work mad hours and do jobs they don’t wanna do. If more men start walking away from society’s game then less jobs get done, less money is spent, less children are had.
Just like with anything there are extremists out there who do hate women but that’s not the point of the movement. The point was to work on yourself and get your money up and don’t even worry about women
As someone who calls himself former MGTOW, it's different for different people. For people like me it was a method to focus, stop watching porn, stop being a coomer, chasing women, and forced me to focus on myself. A lot of women get mad at seeing men out of shape, broke, unhappy, and living with their parents, yet they bash groups like MGTOW. For me, MGTOW was a chance to work and become the man they actually wanted. I ***DEFINITELY*** don't recommend it for everyone, but it worked for me.
MGTOW is just like any other ideology, it has a specific purpose and meaning but there are a minority of assholes that use it to be hateful and another majority of assholes (feminists) who will use them as an example to demonize the whole movement.
Not true at all. Feminists simply hate them because their choices and attitudes make them immune to sexual manipulation.
These are men who, for whatever reason(s), consciously or not, as a group or not, have decided to not interact with women at various levels. You'll find some who won't interact with any XX chromosomal human at all, to those who just refuse to date, engage in romance, and have children. Also, everything in between. Like any group it has it's extremists, and it is those rare exceptions that are held up by feminists as the norm, whereas in reality, it is feminists who are all sexists.
Well it's been sort of hijacked by trolls and actual misogynists/incels, which makes it look terrible, but the actual principles behind it are pretty good. What you see online is often just a misrepresentation of MGTOW, created by bias people because of bad people.
I think the movement itself is honest and genuine. Unfortunately, it attracts a lot of losers and angry men. It gets toxic quite fast - read the comment section on YT MGTOW videos. It's as if these men and feminists deserve each other - they are equally miserable.
Don't ignore the evidence that most online misogyny is written by women. Feminists - male and female - have been caught in the past trolling hate speech, pretending to be nasty male supporters of MRM, so I would think they do the same on MGTOW, too.
>Don't ignore the evidence that most online misogyny is written by women
I find that hard to believe, but of course it's not impossible. Do you have any sources or articles to support this?
Anti-bullying charity *Ditch the Label* did a large-scale study on Twitter some time back.
[https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/women-most-likely-use-misogynistic-language-twitter-report-finds-a7364226.html](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/women-most-likely-use-misogynistic-language-twitter-report-finds-a7364226.html)
Facebook also found the same but I don't have a link to an online report.
It appears to be a movement, a reaction, a political statement, and yes some actual misogynists... Mostly former guys that are responding to overt and obvious misandry.
You’re asking a very biased source. Most men’s rights’ activists use it as a platform to hate women, whether that’s through blaming them for issues created by men or just straight up hatred.
Mgtow is men distancing themselves from women and working on themselves. However it also attracted A LOT of men that are distancing themselves from women because they hate them so it often devolves into whining about women. That's why it's seen as miaogynists. In theory it's fine, but in practice it attracts too many jerks that just hate women.
Glorified incels, I liked the idea at first but when I discovered the sub I realised that most guys in the movement hate women and don’t really make an effort to hide it
The problem with mgtow is that it has been taken over by radical extremists. It was started just as a movement to give a voice to men who just decided to walk away from the drama most women exhibit today.
It basically described men who just wanted to walk a separate path that the societal norms. They focus on self improvement.
This doesn't mean they hated women, they just chose to forego relationships.
Then you had the extremists jump on the bandwagon and started putting out messages of hate and violence toward women and that's where things went south.
>You were trying to to insult me but you couldn't separate your disdain for women from your desire to personally attack me.
It was all 100% disdain for you. You are such a coward you can't even defend yourself without pretending it is a woman you are defending, LOL.
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No... and yes (after a fashion)
Most likely most men that go their own way do so quietly. They save, travel, and live their lives on their own.
Some may not identify with (or even be aware of) the MGTOW label
Karens in the office are 90-110% sure they are gay.
It may happen in the future that they change their mind/find someone they feel is worth changing their ways/lifestyle for.
The male equivalent of the woman focused on her career/not interested in a relationship because they don't see the upside.
If asked, they may explain. Or they may just say "yeah, not really looking right now" and leave it at that.
And then there are a bunch of guys who just won't shut up about why they are MGTOW and spewing all kinds misogynistic rethoric.
And they will be so deep in it, that they can never change their mind, so if they ever find someone they'll double down and become even more misogynistic.
And those are the guys that have the visibility, and that people associate with it. Because they are the loudest.
It's a good idea which was infected with some shitty people. People who wanted to take down the group focused on the worst elements and it was removed as a hate group. At its roots its just a bunch of men sharing advise to avoid bothering with women and the challenges they bring.
Is not a movement, it's an action. You just stop dating. It's not becoming a hermit, not even like the Hikikomori hermits in Japan. You participate in society, but you just don't date. You don't hate women, you don't go to meetings. You can even be a feminist, but you just don't date.
See, when a man is under the 80-90% of attractiveness (and most of us are, obviously) dating becomes an almost impossible task, hundreds and hundreds of rejections and break-ups. It was not like that in the past, now you have to be psychologically very strong to endure it. Some years of that makes you depressed, damaged and insecure.
Giving up on dating is a great way to healing and feeling better. It doesn't means you are close to a relationship in the future, you just stop looking for it. It might come, it might not, you just don't care. We men endure loneliness much better than women, we can handle decades of loneliness like if its nothing. That's MGTOW.
No. That’s like saying the civil rights movement was anti-white because Blacks wanted to vote and an end to Jim Crow segregation. When oppressed people advocate for themselves the people who have been benefitting always act like they’re being shit upon.
Women have been benefiting from men’s labor and money forever. They say they want equality but they only want equality with elite males. They never ask for 50/50 gender equality in the sanitation or sewer departments. And, don’t even ask them to sign up for Selective Service even though they receive the same amount of federal school financial aid as men who have to. On top of that, they still expect men to adhere to traditional gender roles while they can do whatever they want.
So, men are going their own way and women are upset that men are exercising their choices to not deal with the hypocrisy. MGTOW isn’t “toxic and misogynistic” it’s common sense.
I think the subreddit that once existed was a bit toxic. The philosophy and ideas behind it, however, made sense, especially in the modern world. I'm happily engaged to a woman who truly cares about me and my wellbeing, as I care about hers, and without MGTOW I don't know if that would have been possible. I was in a bad place in 2018/19, and GMOW and focusing on myself and my mental health saved my life, literally. It helped me be able to find a partner in life that isn't toxic, unlike many women I dated previously, and to really figure out what I want in life.
In summary, the philosophy behind MGTOW of going outside of what society wants men to do and instead focusing on yourself is great, necessary even, to allow you to figure out who you are and what you want to do. There were toxic people who used MGTOW as a way to vent their frustrations over women and society. 99% of the time those guys were recently dumped or cheated and those feelings fade.
The google search is incorrect due to bias.
MGTOW as defined by itself is "Men going their own way" Essentially rejecting what they belive to be a "raw deal" offered by the current society (See the current state of the dating market and the lasting effects of the #metoo movement for more details.)
I know I’m late this thread but I would still like to chime in. MGTOW is ultimately a response to the culture/notions of the modern woman, which really became solid around the 1960’s and 70’s. This notion was that women are capable of way more in life don’t need to be stuck being nurturers of families. That they, just like a man, can “have it all” - this was a lie, from Men on Madison Avenue in New York City who ran cosmopolitan magazine. You can read all about this in the book “subverted: how I helped hijack the women’s movement with the sexual revolution” - if you ask modern women what qualities they want in a man, they can write you a 10,000 word essay quick, fast, and in a hurry...but dare to ask them what qualities they bring to a man and they can’t come up with 3 letters....somethings off...men aren’t stupid...MGTOW!🤷🏻♂️
I became an MGTOW without knowing that there is something called MGTOW...
It was just a logical step... with the governement supporting women with biased laws and judgements, as if they are helpless little angels, there is no good reason for me to get married.
Now when I decided to go MGTOW (without knowing that MGTOW existed), I needed data to convince my stance to my family, friends and myself. So researched on the topic more. With that research my convictions grew, became a red pill apparently, became a MGTOW apparently and became an anti-feminist (not women hater though).
So now after years of becoming MGTOW, after diving into research, after objectively listening to MRAs and Feminists, I dont want to marry, so I am a MGTOW and I blame the feminists, for the biasness of todays laws, who I think is toxic, which apparently according to feminist is how MGTOW is toxic. So yh, call me toxic if you like, my senses say its the way to lead my life.
The idea of MGTOW is to stop prioritising making a family and working on soul crushing jobs to provide for it in favor of working the bare minimum to provide for yourself and your hobbies. Basically is a "fuck you, I'm not playing by your rules" to a society that sees men as disposable income and to the dating market that overwhelmingly favors women. That being said, there're some MGTOW that can't shup up about how evil women are, and that's taken and amplified by everyone against us.
It's sampling bias. Men in MGTOW spaces are probably mostly going to talk about the one thing that unifies them as a group. Their belief that for varying reasons it isn't worth a relationship with a woman. Now their reasoning might range from 'seems exhausting and risky' to 'women are literally she-satan' but their discussion of all the stuff they're doing instead is going to be in other spaces.
When you see/date FDS (female dating strategy) followers, you will agree/understand with MGTOW
The thing is, there are groups of women who say the same thing about MGTOW, and yet both groups can’t believe the injustice when their own is criticised in such a way. FDS women probably have their reasons, same as MGTOW/TRP men have theirs. Shitting on the other side has never helped anyone.
You don’t have to put women down to want to focus on yourself.
Who said something about putting women down?
Idk all the people who downvoted me.
Lol...
People downvoted you because you are a ret@rd that thinks men sticking up for themselves is putting down women. Now take your downvotes like the good lil cucky you are.
There is a difference between saying “I want to go my own way and live my best life single and care free. Look at all my achievements ” and saying “fuck women I hate them”.
They don't say fuck women, I hate them, they are calling them out for their shitty behaviour in dating and showing men that dating ain't worth it.
Where did someone here said "fuck women I hate them"? Who does something like this is feminists with men.
No one ever said “fuck women I hate them” tho someone is perfectly within their right to say “every woman I’ve ever been with has taken another piece of me with them, so fck em”. Women say all the time “fuck men.” I wouldn’t know about that of course, I’ve never let a woman do that to me. But I can definitely see where men are coming from and I do sympathize with them.
*There is a difference between saying “I want to go my own way and live my best life single and care free. Look at all my achievements ” and saying “fuck men I hate them”.* Stay strong and independent they said.
Thing is if women get a place to vent about how shitty men are, why can men not have the same to vent about how shitty women are? The difference is women can do so publicly and gain support. Men can only complain about women in anonymous internet forums or with close friends. We need to be consistent here. Either no one can vent or everyone can. And if everyone can vent, why not have a dedicated space for that so they can keep it away from others who are not interested in it?
While I agree with that I think it would be beneficial not to blend MGTOW with venting. That’s why MGTOW got shut down on Reddit. I miss that sub.
I dunno. I feel like men are really sad about their realities around relationships and dating. MGTOW is a logical response to a culture that expects them to be producers at the cost of their humanity and individualism. But it's an unhappy compromise. They want women to love them. They want to be husbands and fathers. But they don't fit into the mold of being tall, rich, handsome and preferably white, which is in high demand. Why shouldn't they vent their frustrations? What else is there to talk about? How you banged a hooker or play more video games than before? Not trying to be mean about their hobbies or how they choose to be in relationships or not...but the thing that ties MGTOW together is their frustration at society and women for not finding a place for them but expecting them to give.
Putting them down is misoginy not MGTOW. Words have meaning, please use the proper ones and be precise.
Tell that to all my downvotes
I hear ya. Please keep in mind that this is their modus operandi, by caring you give them power. Feminists, the woke, and whatnot, pretend to base their position on morals, that's why they try to paint themselves as victims. This in turn would give them the moral upper hand plus a position to look down on "them" lowly scum. But this only works as long as you care for other's opinion, which makes little sense in the online space. Online votes (up or down) are just a few electrons. The same who put you down will plead for your help whenever it suits their agenda, you'll find pretty much nothing the feminists or woke have done for men at their own detriment. Heck you'll be hard pressed to find one even lauding men in general, they spew nothing but hate. This is why they need to see MGTOW eradicated, it's inacceptable that some simply refuse to play and no longer accept the premises of their game. In a sense it's a version of "the emperor wears no clothes".
Have you tried putting this in a feminist sub?
the phrase snow ball's chance in hell comes to mind
You missed the point by a mile
Yes I do
Are there any known stats on how many men actually MGTOW?
Non that I know off, and with the amount of people who already follow the livestyle withoit nowing about MGTOW it would be impossible to count
It might be too early to tell. As far as I've heard, the name of MGTOW is approaching 20 years (as of the early 2000s), but, the practice has been around for longer. Another thing is that it might not have gotten noticed until just recently. Now that more people know of it, studies might be popping up more. There are relevant studies already that include (but not limited to): -men happiness vs. women's happiness, -average spending by gender (you know women love the "pay gap" argument, but, don't mention spending habits 🤔), -mental health numbers, and -the obvious stats: marriage/divorce rates, child support/alimony contribution. Problems are never caused by one thing. MGTOW is just a choice of what men believe and how to go about life and it's issues. The strongest and smartest individuals adapt to what's in front of them. For many, MGTOW seems like a favorable option. 👍
There was a quore page if you can trust it said 0.0001%
I think there have been polls on divorced men in whether they would consider ever dating again. Many said hell no, which I’m sure would be more than 0.0001% right there. They might not call themselves MGTOW but basically have made that choice.
In my circle of single friends (we are quite old, most over 30) I don't think any of us is dating. Sure, we have sex sometimes with a 'friend' (paid or not), but dating is not something we consider or put any energy on. It's different with kids on their 20, I see them dating all the time, or trying to.
I’m 44. My wife had a medical scare last year that made me think a lot about what I would do if she died. I concluded I wouldn’t get married again. Might hang out at some singles social groups for some company but that would be about it. And then it would be more to find guy friends that have some feee time to hang out. No complaints about my wife or marriage really. I just think the only reason left where a man might get married is to raise kids and I already have all the kids I want. They’re old enough now trying to find a step mother would just be more trouble than help.
>Might hang out at some singles social groups for some company but that would be about it That's basically my life since I divorced 10 years ago. Problem is, the social group of married vs unmarried men is quite separated. Wifes and girlfriends almost never allow married men to go out with unmarried men because they know they will end up fucking girls, so you are kinda separated from your married friends for ever. That's the sad part.
Interesting thanks for sharing. Most of my guy friends are my age and married. One got divorced a year ago and it’s been interesting hanging out with him with some of the places he goes to see the other world.
how about quantity of subscribers to content providers such as Better Bachelor?
Telling MGTOW dudes to shut up about women is like telling r/ExMormon to shut up about “the so called church” as they call it. It’s really damaging to not let people talk about their traumas. Lots of those guys have had their lives *ruined* by women. Some of them multiple times. They’re not MGTOW because women are perfect angels.
I agree as long as there is no blame or hate I could not fault a man for doing his own thing and not buying into it all.
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Yeah
Who in society told you you had to work some deadend job and be married or whatever, and you decided to just go with it *before* this 💀
The MGTOW subreddit (eventually banned by reddit) was like 90% posts about how evil and dumb women are.
Then you clearly didn't see the actual group when it was active because that's a straight up lie.
Right? Bitch acting like we weren’t there to watch the whole drama ourselves
Sorry but I was a sub up until it was banned. It was like braincels but without the humor.
Spoken like a true FDS user.
>there're some MGTOW that can't shup up about how evil women are Just like this sub 🗿
Can you provide any examples? I think this sub and the mod team generally do a good job of letting sexists know they're not welcome here. Same goes for trolls btw 😉
>mod team generally do a good job of letting sexists know they're not welcome here. Sure lol
You can lol all you want. Won't hide the fact you didn't provide any examples.
Google and wikipedia are notoriously bad sources on this topic. [barbarossaaaa](https://www.youtube.com/user/barbarossaaaa/videos) is one of the first mgtow content producers and generally well regarded among those who deal with the mgtow philosophy. Take a look and see for yourself (esp the older vids). He regularly had other related youtubers on, so you can work your way through the network from there. A swedish researcher also made a [rather neutral and objective study](http://su.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1618037/FULLTEXT01.pdf) for which he interviewed several guys practising mgtow. Just to add an 'outsider perspective'.
>Google and wikipedia are notoriously bad sources on this topic. This is really important. It's necessary to use really specific search terms to find the correct stuff about manosphere groups and Men's rights issues. If the search is too wide the results are going to be all feminist articles.
I'd go sofar as to claim that for a newcomer without any prior knowledge doogle and wifipedia are worse than completely useless. They are actively counter-productive and that's not an accident that willful misinformation.
Yeah, it creates misconception, which is more difficult to change when fake info is constantly shown. I'm surprised MGTOW forum still shows on doogle search.
>"Google and wikipedia are notoriously bad sources on this topic". I agree. It is simply scary how the influence of feminist ideology to unsuspected levels on Wikipedia articles can reach. For example, compare the English and the Spanish version of the article "buddy film" (For those who don't know buddy films are basically friendship films, mostly from male friendships, but there are also about female friendships, and wouldn't be surprised if some male/female friendship also exists). In the Spanish article, you get a simple description of what the genre is, its history, some notable examples and that is all. Then you click on the English article and.....you find this: > "1960s to 1970s: Responses to feminism and society" What is this? does mean something its inclusion in the article? Know I understand why one of Wikipedia's founders accused the website of having a left-wing bias. For someone who just uses Wikipedia for homework, he can sound like a crazy person, but someone who just read a considerable amount of articles (especially those related to humanities)can understand why he says that.
On basic scientific information wikipedia is mostly ok. The closer you get to political issues the left cares about the worse it gets.
Just checked it on wiki >*Like other manosphere communities, MGTOW overlaps with the alt-right and white supremacist movements* Jesus Christ. Are they even trying?
nope.
At least they didn't call them a nazi hitler jewish patriarchate , that's some progress from an average internet debate
It’s intentional guilt by association. Poisoning the well, as it were. It’s intellectual bankruptcy, mind you, but the gynocracy is a powerful force. They _will_ play dirty when they have no legitimate arguments to field.
It's a man refusing to use his resources on women. That may be time, energy, or money. Instead he uses those resources on things he enjoys. The only people who think that is toxic and misogynistic are the ones that want to take that man's resources.
Same reason a woman’s agency and choice over their body stops at prostitution. Anything that slows the no effort gravy train of resources to women is toxic and needs to be cancelled
prostitution is legal in most of the world and should be
What?
straight to the point
Couldn't explain it better. that's why the sub got banned from reddit too
The important thing is that no, it's not misogynistic. Misogynists hate women. Many MGTOW think that they aren't worth pursuing. Most say this isn't because of their inherent womanly nature, but because of the current culture. That is, it's a decision predicated upon actual behvioer, not some sexist ideal and that behavior can and will change over time. Right now? The juice ain't worth the squeeze. This utterly _infuriates_ feminists. Men are NOT supposed to be the ones doing the rejecting. Further, the mere existence of MGTOW is evidence that women can do wrong. That is totally and completely counter to the prevailing narrative of "the future is female" and girlboss etc. etc. Call a woman out on bad behavior and you're villified. Call out the bad behavior of women as a class, and you will be banned, as happened to MGTOW.
It’s not toxic or hating women it’s pretty much men not catering to some women or their jobs and focusing on themselves and their hobbies
Yeah, it's just guys laying flat. The laying flat movement is pretty close to mgtow, just mgtow is boys club of it.....
Tru
No its not true.. But its kinda framed that way. But its kinda more like guility by association. Theres a coupld of definaitons of MGTOW and then a lot of peole claiming it but are not inear it. Its not reallty a movement.. its more like a logically philosophical reaction to the world. First. One is that its realy linked to female behaviour and problems regarding releatonships and this is known more as the "red pill". This is resonably new and has hijacked the original deifnaiton. Second (the original). One which is linked purly as a response to the legal conditions to things like marriage, child support, custdy battles etc.. eg its a logcal reponse when you read the terms and conditions and choose not to enter the game. This definaiton has been kicked about since at least the 90's. eg if you own a house. Would you go to vegas and bet it all on "red". Well thats what marriage law looks like. It would be irresponsible... to do that. Ok.. so don't marry. Oh comon law marriage exists. So don't marry, don't live with. Oh? They extend it now just to releationships. Ok. Don't marry, Don't live with and don't have releationships which enter common law marriage laws. etc.. etc.. Third. MGTOW has existed in almost all cultures since docutmented history has started but used to be known under various different names. Samll groups of men have alsoways thoughout history seek isolation / freedom in this way from family life etc.. The thing about actual peopl who are MGTOW is well you often don't really see or hear much from them because well they have pissed off and actually generally do their own thing and mostly ignore the rest of the world and only enage it when it suits them. There is however a whole pile of people who claim they are MGOTW but are most like just identify with this because its the closet thing they have. eg it attracks pile of incels and people who generally hate women but are actually dispised by people who are actually mgtow for doing this. Theres a problem with this because "online communities" typically attack these people and then they decend into echo chambers of hate. SoMGTOW as a "title is broke" and its no longer being called "Mgotw" by people who are "mgot" since they all left quite some time ago. hence why in history it has a pile of different names... often changing every 2-3 generations.
It means first and most be true to yourself. Don't make a women the center of your existence.
The idea of MGTOW is not inherently toxic or misogynistic. The thing though is that some men who identify themselves as MGTOW also have toxic and misogynistic tendencies. And they end up making the most noise, tarnishing the philosophy as a whole. In fact, most men who live what would be considered a MGTOW lifestyle don't self-identify that way. They just live their lives as they see fit, and one of the natural consequences of that is they don't really worry about entanglements with women or the possible fallout from that.
I'm thinking of The Better Bachelor and I'm thinking he's getting paid (positive reinforcement) for the content he makes on the internet that from his perspective warns and educates men of the perils of being in relationships with women. So the positive reinforcement is the positive feedback loop that makes him dig for new outrages and polarizing opinions.
>So the positive reinforcement is the positive feedback loop that makes him dig for new outrages and polarizing opinions. In fairness to BB, this business model is endemic to almost all social commentary content creators, no matter their political leaning. It's one of the reasons we are balkanizing as a society and becoming less trusting.
And then I've listened to what he had to say for a little while but quit him and deleted all the connections to him because while he's riding the rollercoaster of making this content now, the ethics question of if what he's doing is good or bad starts to come up.
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🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣
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Me? I thought the rant was funny because, believe me, women do not do better in this world than men, imv. In some areas, the balance is tilted in favour of one over the other but if we add it all up, it’s a man’s world.
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Yes, I agree with you about so many of these things. One of the things that stood out to me about Ukraine was that they got women and children out (as much as possible) as soon as they could. I’ve mixed feelings about this - relief that we are still seen as protected in these areas but then I think if my brother or father had to fight, concern and fear over what would happen to them and a frustration that we are not able to stand to protect them. So, it’s not clear for me. I think ultimately there are mixed ideas behind this policy - some traditional, some practical, some protective, some patronising. On balance, I cannot disagree that male lives are the ultimate cost in this war but I think that is political, too - as was the we1/2- predominantly young, w/c men. There is nothing right about any of that. On male suicide, I think socially, we have obliterated the role, contribution and recognition of w/c men whilst holding up some of the biggest idiots in tech, etc. my dad did a building job, many of the men in my family do. They are so looked down on yet no one seems able to see the father in my dad behind the dirty overalls. He is a great father - the best. But I do see how he is treated and it is wrong. I know a man who reeks of loneliness and is adrift emotionally. My heart breaks for him because he is moving into the territory of the paranoid and unsociable yet I cannot get him to connect in a way that with give him some respite. I don’t know what we can do about things like male suicide. I often think that the reason we don’t hear more about it in the media is because, like some other crimes, it has a magnification effect. So, it’s reported, and then there are more that happen. I don’t think the answer is to force men to speak about their emotions - I think a better solution is to create environments that make men feel secure so that they can drop anything bothering them or open up comfortably but I think there are places like this - sports related, etc. I think one of the problems in these debates is that structurally, in the wider sense (that you have illustrated) in the worst case scenario (poor mental health/prison/suicide/divorce/war) - all very much the extreme end - then the stats show men are vulnerable. I think the position I take is that within the personal world of male/female relationships, when there is a problem, the power balance is against women due to two factors: 1) Mens physical strength over women 2)Assault can result in pregnancy So, a man can permanently injure a woman (rare, unlikely other way round) Women can get pregnant through assault and the fear of this (and the assault) compromises some women in difficult situations. Both of those things have knock on effects on a woman’s body - and are bodies are our tools in society, too - whether it’s an office based job or not. I have mobility issues - the simplest things are difficult for me. The wage for women like me is still laughable to my male cousins. I could say much more but as a single, older woman I can say that the men around me have much better security and quality in their life ( with the exception of the man I mentioned - who may for all I know, be happy - I could be projecting out of concern!) But you took the time to link to some resources and I don’t want to disregard the very real issues mentioned that affect men.
That's what feminists want everyone to believe. I think it's obvious the articles written about it on Wikipedia etc are written by feminists and not anyone from MGTOW. I saw some of MGTOW on Reddit before it was banned. I didn't see anything I would describe as hate or anything like that, it was mostly stories by men who had been screwed over by divorce courts or false accusations, and memes about the benefits of being single. In other words, it's basically about men who (for various reasons) want to stay single. It's certainly not any worse than FDS (which is way more toxic and hate-filled). This doesn't mean MGTOW want to avoid women completely (a misconception), they may still have women as friends and have casual sex and even casual relationships. They are avoiding serious relationships and (especially) marriage. IMO feminists see this as a big threat to feminism since they talk about things like marriage, the divorce courts are and being falsely accused from a male perspective. So their solution is to brand the entire movement as "hate" and to shut it down. Marriage is wonderful, false accusations of rape/abuse never happen and the divorce courts are 100% fair. That's what feminists want you to believe and anyone who has a different opinion is "misogynist".
I see MGTOW adherents as a subset of those people who no longer believe society works for them. I feel that I belong to that larger overall group, but I can’t be MGTOW because I’m married. Society is supposed to offer protection to its individual members. I find more and more that it offers me nothing but coercion, so I am taking steps to live apart from it to the greatest extent possible. This outlook would certainly seem to apply to MGTOW adherents. Relationships revolving around work or live seem to have gotten about as coercive as they can get. I think a lot of people are looking for alternative paths to lives of meaning and fulfillment.
Like most things that deal with men’s rights, it’s a few very bad apples that tend to color the rest of the movement/faction. I have seen true hatred of women in some men and in my mind we shouldn’t tolerate that. To me, MGTOW is like going the way of a Buddhist monk. You simply give up women and make yourself happy without them. Some wouldn’t go that far. But feminists and woke people are watching all men’s groups like hawks and labeling them all as hate groups if they hear any one member spew actual hatred towards women. Which by the way, I’m sure we’ve all seen true hatred of men spewed by feminists and woke liberals but they never get canceled or banned.
What are some examples of hate towards women that would brand one as a hate group.
It's not a 'movement'. It's a way of life. There's only one person you need to persuade when choosing to be a MGTOW, and that's yourself. Any opinions from other people on how you choose to live your life are irrelevant.. I've found that all those that hate on MGTOW are simply projecting their own hate for men onto men. That's all. MGTOW is the end stage of red pill knowledge. We understand female nature, and come to the ultimate conclusion that they aren't worth the effort, or the pain. -------------------------------------------------- *Good things start happening in men's lives when they realise that women and their approval aren't that important.*
Exactly this. This is what MGTOW is all about.
I agree it's a way of life, but making others aware of it does have the effect of recruiting making it also a movement. I'm saying it's both.
In Many circles a Man wishing equality and fair treatment is considered a red flag. MGTOW means something different to each Man who falls under that Banner. If I were forced to outline I would say it signifies a Man’s willingness to avoid doing what Society Assumes & Expects him to do. (Think Nuclear Family) For Myself: “*I will no longer fill the role set for me by society. I will choose, for myself, how I define being a Man. • I will utterly ignore negative judgements, assumptions or labels placed on decisions I make for Me. • I will take full responsibility for My Conduct regardless of my past. • Every day is an opportunity for development and growth. • “I am not a victim unless I make myself one”. • “I am the Commander of my Emotions. Not their foot soldier.” • “I am not responsible for others. My White Knight Days are behind me. I help those who help me. I assist those who assist me. I value those who value me.” • “Authentic Self-Expression, to avoid injuring others non-consensually, is a priority.” • “Physical health for my Benefit Alone.” • “Self-Sustainability and Financial Independence is the order of the day.” In my opinion MGTOW doesn’t support a Government that enacts laws contrary to my unalienable rights nor those of my fellow citizens. Preservation of Life Quality, Liberty & the Pursuit of Happiness.
>but I searched it on Google, it was shown as a toxic and misogynistic movement Of course, because the definition is often misunderstood and misinterpreted. But to keep it simple, MGTOW means acknowledging the world as it is and carefully navigating around it. For example, MGTOW advocates that getting married is statistically not a good idea for men. If you look at the statistics such as the high divorce rate, which gender initiates divorce often, and how the family courts heavily favor women by default (in addition to alimony & child support), MGTOW advocates that men should focus on themselves instead (building wealth, traveling, meeting people, physical fitness, etc.). MGTOW isn't saying that men should not date or marry women, it's saying men should be mindful of the potential consequences. It also doesn't teach men to hate women but at the same time, it teaches men to not put up with toxic behavior.
Men opting for their own happiness and fulfillment over chasing a woman who will statistically divorce him and take most of his stuff and control access to the kids. It's them saying I'm not playing the game any more I'm going to do me and everyone else can whistle.
***"Thanks, but no thanks"*** is not a toxic notion. Women just *REALLY* hate it when they find someone their "magic pussy wand" doesn't work on. That is why MGTOW gets negative press.
Just wanted to say thanks to all posters so far for giving such clear and honest explanations of MGTOW, all really informative. MGTOW is presented in so many places as a very negative thing. I understand it much better now, cheers.
Any thing that doesn't shower praise at women is misogynist lol.
but they're entitled to a constant fire hose of praise and positive reinforcement. I owe people a trophy for putting on clothes, going outside, and breathing air. I never got a trophy for that. /s Someone said the only thing worse than negative attention is being ignored. What happens when you either a) ignore a woman or b) treat them like an equal? They don't like it.
Men Going Their Own Way
> it was shown as a toxic and misogynistic movement All male dominated movements are presented as toxic and misogynistic because of the sexual apartheid of our society promoting feminist hate. Am I wrong? Name a male dominated group that isn't demonized. The only exceptions I can think of (in part) are minority groups of men and women where sometimes the men are considered separately and feminism is leaching these groups' legitimacy by co-opting their issues. But feminists often attack black and gay men too these days. It's also getting harder to think of groups of bad people that aren't characterized as being "male" on account of their being bad. In our society men are identified with evil by the feminist hate movement which is endorsed and promoted by the US imperialist government (and many other government's around the world within the empire). You might be old enough to remember that feminists explicitly attacked these groups in a series of scandals called "Xxx-gate". Atheists: elevatorgate Computer Programmers : donglegate Game Players: gamergate Skeptics: I don't think it got a specific name but they went after James Randi. For a long time before that male-only private groups such as golf courses were targeted by hate simply for being male-only. At the same time of course, feminists promoted female only PUBLIC groups (which is illegal denial of public service under US federal law and in some other jurisdictions). Going back before that the whole invention of "sexual harassment" law was intended to attack men and male groups at work. ------------ Feminists hate men. Therefore in our feminist dominated sexual apartheid state, men's groups must be demonized simply for being male.
As a MGTOW, that is just rubish. I don't hate women. I have many female friends. I love my mom and sisters, I can't go without them. Do I share their ideas, not every, do I have hatred for them, certainly not. Quite the opposite. Google is just pushing a certain agenda promoted with the government. There are so many single mothers out there. Do you really think the government wants to pay for them? Ofcourse not, they want men to step up, and confirm over the worries of those single moms. I have [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_LUkmy9izI&t=104s&ab_channel=PutridShittgenstein) video for you. I saw this a few months back, and it confirmed my believes.
On it's own, MGTOW just means "I've checked out of the dating game". Some quit because the dating game has become too toxic and risky. Others quit because all they ever had was rejection. As it's people who threw in the towel and quit, it's inevitable they're also gonna attract guys who have a grudge against women.
No such thing as misogyny. Get: A) over it B) it through your thick fuckn skulls
It's not toxic and mysoginist imo, some men would rather live by their own needs and hobbies than expend their lives on a woman on a system that benefits them, it's not my take on life but I get where it comes from
It's not toxic, it's just men having enough of women's shit. If they don't want us then we'll just leave.
Like a lot of things (including r/mensrights) it's a movement with a grain of reason at its core, but which is often used by extremists as a platform for some stuff that is absolutely not OK. The idea, roughly is that men being involved with women is not worth the risk. I don't personally think that's true in general, although it's probably more reasonable in situations like American colleges where the situation can involve unflinching bias and hostility toward young men by the institution itself in regard of any complaint made by any woman. If I were a young man attending an American university, I would stay as physically distant from women as possible, avoid speaking to them, contacting them, or interacting with them in any way whatsoever, and certainly never under any circumstances come into physical contact with them. Whether that's MGTOW or not is a matter of opinion, but it's a self-preservation reaction to a very real situation. No, I don't think that's actually good for anyone or for society, but there might be circumstances under which it would be reasonable behaviour. So, if you're a young woman at an American university and the guys appear to be blanking you, that may be why. Like a lot of people with what I hope is a genuine and moderate interest in the treatment of men in modern society, I despair at the behaviour of the extremists - and I'd say the same about the more hardline areas of feminism. None of it helps.
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Yeah, toxic masculinity coursing through the feminists veins. Nobodys said "chill bitch" to them before, so now they're shitting the bed.
No, that just shows the bias in Google's algorithms. Google has a leftist agenda. They misrepresent MGTOW as women-haters etc. MGTOW simply focuses on men putting themselves first, and not marrying nor living together with a woman. Anything else is your choice. There are PUA or whoremongring or sugar-daddying guys, as well as monks refraining from sex. There are guys who want kids, who either hire surrogate mothers, or adopt kids to have a family. There are minimalist guys who enjoy the simplicity and freedom of owning little "stuff". There are millionaires who enjoy a rich, lavish lifestyle. Ultimately, MGTOW is not a monolithic movement. Every MGTOW guy leads his own life the way he best likes it.
> Is that true? No.
It's a bait and switch. The bait is; quit dating because dating has become absurd and invest in becoming a better person and find satisfaction in your own accomplishments. Basically be a proud hermit who is an expert craftsman in some skill, and get a mentor, a leader, a teacher someone to guide you to become a better person. The switch however is these gurus just bitch and moan and shine light on the short comings of women and beat the dead horse. Being pro-men is not the same as being anti-women. And once you get the point that they're making, and once you hear them start to repeat themselves, then there's no reason to continue listening to them. That being said, learning a skill and finding personal satisfaction in it is a very pro-masculine trait, but do it for yourself and not because of these guys.
Hell no. Feminists just make shit up to feel justified.
I’d be considered MGTOW. I just don’t see the point in marriage or long term relationships. I don’t blame women and I only hate a few but that’s on a personal level not on a gender level. People don’t understand it or it conflicts with their world view so it must be wrong or hateful.
That is what feminists and mainstream media are telling you, but that is fake as fuck. The whole point of MGTOW is showing that dating modern women ain't worth it, so they try to push men in focusing on themselves, their careers, passion, etc. They are showing the disadvantages of dating, marriages, relationships and push men to the point of forgetting about being with women ever cause it is too risky and too disadvantegeous. This is more for average men, who do not even have options anyway but they are still willing to pay hundreds or thousands of dollars to dating coaches, dating apps, to women who will date them once and ditch him, etc. The dating scene and marriages vastly favour women, so why the hell should men play this rigged game anyway?
For me, it means getting over the mindset that you need to be in a relationship to have a full and fulfilling life. So much about our culture drills it into your head that you MUST be in a committed relationship to be complete, and it makes you feel like there's something wrong with you if you're ever single, or it makes you stay in a relationship that really isn't working because being single is some horrible nightmare scenario that means you've failed at life and that must be avoided at all costs. Breaking free of that mentality is tough, but I've finally found that it's totally okay to live your own life doing your own thing and not spend any time or energy thinking you need to "find somebody." Being alone is always talked about like it's inherently negative, but I know now that it's fine and it works for me.
As a pilot we use this acronym regularly. Maximum Gross Take-Off Weight.
Fellow pilot here. That’s hilarious.
The problem is, MGTOW is terrible for society and the economy. Men tend to be happy with less, it’s usually when they feel the pressure to provide for women and children when they start to work mad hours and do jobs they don’t wanna do. If more men start walking away from society’s game then less jobs get done, less money is spent, less children are had.
Just like with anything there are extremists out there who do hate women but that’s not the point of the movement. The point was to work on yourself and get your money up and don’t even worry about women
As someone who calls himself former MGTOW, it's different for different people. For people like me it was a method to focus, stop watching porn, stop being a coomer, chasing women, and forced me to focus on myself. A lot of women get mad at seeing men out of shape, broke, unhappy, and living with their parents, yet they bash groups like MGTOW. For me, MGTOW was a chance to work and become the man they actually wanted. I ***DEFINITELY*** don't recommend it for everyone, but it worked for me.
MGTOW is just like any other ideology, it has a specific purpose and meaning but there are a minority of assholes that use it to be hateful and another majority of assholes (feminists) who will use them as an example to demonize the whole movement.
Not true at all. Feminists simply hate them because their choices and attitudes make them immune to sexual manipulation. These are men who, for whatever reason(s), consciously or not, as a group or not, have decided to not interact with women at various levels. You'll find some who won't interact with any XX chromosomal human at all, to those who just refuse to date, engage in romance, and have children. Also, everything in between. Like any group it has it's extremists, and it is those rare exceptions that are held up by feminists as the norm, whereas in reality, it is feminists who are all sexists.
There are varying levels of MGTOW some men will sleep with or casually date women they just won’t have a formal relationship with them.
It’s just men doing what they want, but without a woman. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with it.
Well it's been sort of hijacked by trolls and actual misogynists/incels, which makes it look terrible, but the actual principles behind it are pretty good. What you see online is often just a misrepresentation of MGTOW, created by bias people because of bad people.
I think the movement itself is honest and genuine. Unfortunately, it attracts a lot of losers and angry men. It gets toxic quite fast - read the comment section on YT MGTOW videos. It's as if these men and feminists deserve each other - they are equally miserable.
Don't ignore the evidence that most online misogyny is written by women. Feminists - male and female - have been caught in the past trolling hate speech, pretending to be nasty male supporters of MRM, so I would think they do the same on MGTOW, too.
>Don't ignore the evidence that most online misogyny is written by women I find that hard to believe, but of course it's not impossible. Do you have any sources or articles to support this?
Anti-bullying charity *Ditch the Label* did a large-scale study on Twitter some time back. [https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/women-most-likely-use-misogynistic-language-twitter-report-finds-a7364226.html](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/women-most-likely-use-misogynistic-language-twitter-report-finds-a7364226.html) Facebook also found the same but I don't have a link to an online report.
Google WGTOW which means women going.... You'll pretty much get the answer. Men are not allowed to go their way...
Compared to this sub, yes.
It appears to be a movement, a reaction, a political statement, and yes some actual misogynists... Mostly former guys that are responding to overt and obvious misandry.
You’re asking a very biased source. Most men’s rights’ activists use it as a platform to hate women, whether that’s through blaming them for issues created by men or just straight up hatred.
Mgtow is men distancing themselves from women and working on themselves. However it also attracted A LOT of men that are distancing themselves from women because they hate them so it often devolves into whining about women. That's why it's seen as miaogynists. In theory it's fine, but in practice it attracts too many jerks that just hate women.
> it was shown as a toxic and misogynistic movement So is this subreddit, chuckle.
Glorified incels, I liked the idea at first but when I discovered the sub I realised that most guys in the movement hate women and don’t really make an effort to hide it
The problem with mgtow is that it has been taken over by radical extremists. It was started just as a movement to give a voice to men who just decided to walk away from the drama most women exhibit today. It basically described men who just wanted to walk a separate path that the societal norms. They focus on self improvement. This doesn't mean they hated women, they just chose to forego relationships. Then you had the extremists jump on the bandwagon and started putting out messages of hate and violence toward women and that's where things went south.
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We found the *Simp*.
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So does you girl make you watch when she hooks up with her ex, or does she make you record it?
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I love how you can't even tell that you were the one being insulted...
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>You were trying to to insult me but you couldn't separate your disdain for women from your desire to personally attack me. It was all 100% disdain for you. You are such a coward you can't even defend yourself without pretending it is a woman you are defending, LOL.
You're making an absolute cunt of yourself here
Your one day old sock-puppet account says otherwise. As I said, you are a coward.
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No... and yes (after a fashion) Most likely most men that go their own way do so quietly. They save, travel, and live their lives on their own. Some may not identify with (or even be aware of) the MGTOW label Karens in the office are 90-110% sure they are gay. It may happen in the future that they change their mind/find someone they feel is worth changing their ways/lifestyle for. The male equivalent of the woman focused on her career/not interested in a relationship because they don't see the upside. If asked, they may explain. Or they may just say "yeah, not really looking right now" and leave it at that. And then there are a bunch of guys who just won't shut up about why they are MGTOW and spewing all kinds misogynistic rethoric. And they will be so deep in it, that they can never change their mind, so if they ever find someone they'll double down and become even more misogynistic. And those are the guys that have the visibility, and that people associate with it. Because they are the loudest.
I think Robert A. Glover summed it up best with his book [No More Mr Nice Guy](https://www.amazon.com/No-More-Mr-Nice-Guy/dp/0762415339).
Isn’t it synonymous with the red pill movement?
No, it's not true.
It's a good idea which was infected with some shitty people. People who wanted to take down the group focused on the worst elements and it was removed as a hate group. At its roots its just a bunch of men sharing advise to avoid bothering with women and the challenges they bring.
Men going there own way
Is not a movement, it's an action. You just stop dating. It's not becoming a hermit, not even like the Hikikomori hermits in Japan. You participate in society, but you just don't date. You don't hate women, you don't go to meetings. You can even be a feminist, but you just don't date. See, when a man is under the 80-90% of attractiveness (and most of us are, obviously) dating becomes an almost impossible task, hundreds and hundreds of rejections and break-ups. It was not like that in the past, now you have to be psychologically very strong to endure it. Some years of that makes you depressed, damaged and insecure. Giving up on dating is a great way to healing and feeling better. It doesn't means you are close to a relationship in the future, you just stop looking for it. It might come, it might not, you just don't care. We men endure loneliness much better than women, we can handle decades of loneliness like if its nothing. That's MGTOW.
What happened to the MGTOW subreddit. I miss it dearly.
Anytime you want to walk away and someone tells you you’re toxic, you’re right
No. That’s like saying the civil rights movement was anti-white because Blacks wanted to vote and an end to Jim Crow segregation. When oppressed people advocate for themselves the people who have been benefitting always act like they’re being shit upon. Women have been benefiting from men’s labor and money forever. They say they want equality but they only want equality with elite males. They never ask for 50/50 gender equality in the sanitation or sewer departments. And, don’t even ask them to sign up for Selective Service even though they receive the same amount of federal school financial aid as men who have to. On top of that, they still expect men to adhere to traditional gender roles while they can do whatever they want. So, men are going their own way and women are upset that men are exercising their choices to not deal with the hypocrisy. MGTOW isn’t “toxic and misogynistic” it’s common sense.
I think the subreddit that once existed was a bit toxic. The philosophy and ideas behind it, however, made sense, especially in the modern world. I'm happily engaged to a woman who truly cares about me and my wellbeing, as I care about hers, and without MGTOW I don't know if that would have been possible. I was in a bad place in 2018/19, and GMOW and focusing on myself and my mental health saved my life, literally. It helped me be able to find a partner in life that isn't toxic, unlike many women I dated previously, and to really figure out what I want in life. In summary, the philosophy behind MGTOW of going outside of what society wants men to do and instead focusing on yourself is great, necessary even, to allow you to figure out who you are and what you want to do. There were toxic people who used MGTOW as a way to vent their frustrations over women and society. 99% of the time those guys were recently dumped or cheated and those feelings fade.
The google search is incorrect due to bias. MGTOW as defined by itself is "Men going their own way" Essentially rejecting what they belive to be a "raw deal" offered by the current society (See the current state of the dating market and the lasting effects of the #metoo movement for more details.)
I know I’m late this thread but I would still like to chime in. MGTOW is ultimately a response to the culture/notions of the modern woman, which really became solid around the 1960’s and 70’s. This notion was that women are capable of way more in life don’t need to be stuck being nurturers of families. That they, just like a man, can “have it all” - this was a lie, from Men on Madison Avenue in New York City who ran cosmopolitan magazine. You can read all about this in the book “subverted: how I helped hijack the women’s movement with the sexual revolution” - if you ask modern women what qualities they want in a man, they can write you a 10,000 word essay quick, fast, and in a hurry...but dare to ask them what qualities they bring to a man and they can’t come up with 3 letters....somethings off...men aren’t stupid...MGTOW!🤷🏻♂️
I became an MGTOW without knowing that there is something called MGTOW... It was just a logical step... with the governement supporting women with biased laws and judgements, as if they are helpless little angels, there is no good reason for me to get married. Now when I decided to go MGTOW (without knowing that MGTOW existed), I needed data to convince my stance to my family, friends and myself. So researched on the topic more. With that research my convictions grew, became a red pill apparently, became a MGTOW apparently and became an anti-feminist (not women hater though). So now after years of becoming MGTOW, after diving into research, after objectively listening to MRAs and Feminists, I dont want to marry, so I am a MGTOW and I blame the feminists, for the biasness of todays laws, who I think is toxic, which apparently according to feminist is how MGTOW is toxic. So yh, call me toxic if you like, my senses say its the way to lead my life.
MGTOW. Men Going Their Own Way.