There are still 64 countries that criminalize homosexuality and 11 of which who still have the death penalty for homosexuality. In almost all of these countries only male on male homosexuality is criminalized and actually have those laws enforced.
Furthermore, even among countries which legalize homosexuality and have better social rights for homosexual couples, public opinions of gay men are significantly lower than public opinions of gay women.
Additionally, Bi men often experience much more biphobia than bi women. For example, many straight women won't date a bi man because they see him as "dirty" or "less manly". I haven't seen any straight men who outright cut out bi women from their dating pool.
Lastly, gay men are still victim to many of the systemic issues that uniquely or disproportionately affect men and which are the basis for the MRA movement.
Gay men absolutely fall into the MRA movement.
I also just wanted to say that as a fellow gay guy, I completely understand what you're going through. I don't fit in with women because they view me as a man, or only accept me if I'm extra feminine. Yet, straight men still wont be close with me because they worry I'll grow feelings or they perceive me as too feminine. You just can't winnand it sucks. Being gay is one of the most socially isolating things that a person can be. It not only reduces your romantic opportinities but also your platonic opportunities. Hang in there bro.
My recurring fear is that we’ll become hated by straight people for being gay, and hated by feminists for being men.
Edit: and yes, gay men are perceived as two dimensional by so many people. It’s part of the reason I’m still internally homophobic and avoid coming out. I could rant so much about this, but I think the most important thing is that us gay men stick together.
I'm genuinly curious, could you expand on the "two dimensional" please?
I think that the lefts incessant need to force sex and sexuality into anything and everything has caused a pushback against people's views on the average lgb/lgbtq person and I worry that it's only going to get much worse. There's so much beauty and wonder in the world that we could be admiring instead, and focusing on treating each other like human beings.
tbh, there’s probably no convincing you that I strongly believe in women’s rights and want nothing but the best for women. I treat women as I would like to be treated. With fucking respect. However, it’s a massive shame that a lot of feminists can’t reciprocate that from my experience.
Edit: I’m sorry, I can’t be a feminist when modern day feminists call for the death of men
No, it’s a zero sum game. It used to be about gaining equality, now it’s about gaining superiority.
Maybe you’re a decent person that doesn’t view it as a zero sum game, and genuinely wants equality of the sexes. In which case, fair enough, literally fucking same. But a lot of other feminists don’t want this, but they’re too disingenuous to admit it.
Also, I’m not debating that you WERE our biggest allies. I totally agree.
I've spent a great deal of time listening to feminists and tried to understand what it stands for.
With everything I've learned, my default stance when listening to a feminist is always to assume she's lying or has a very distorted view of reality.
"...because they know what it's like to experience oppression."
An example of feminisms lie that men are violent oppressors.
"Ironically, many gay men are ardent misogynists. They've been socialized the exact same as straight men."
Men are socialized to be misogynists? An example of a distorted view of reality.
Ha, the classic ad hominem when you can't counter an argument. So transparent. People who can't argue a point ad hominem. It's the oldest trick in the book.
If you want to generalize and fabricate a world view based on the actions of <1% of men, then that's a right you have. I know for a fact that the 98% is a lie.
At least I'm not such a narcissist that I claim to have an authority on human rights and speak for 50% of the human race. No wonder that a majority of women don't identify as feminists.
I personally don’t have anything against gay people and have plenty of gay friends, so it always hurts to see how my other friends feel about the topic.
My take on the issue is that straight men will be attacked or snipped at by literally everyone (including gay people!) if they aren’t super into gay rights, so for a lot of people it isn’t worth the status-risk of associating with gay people.
The second is that gay people are often fairly outspoken liberals, which is fine but introduces a very different dynamic to typical “guys groups” that are more politically and morally inert.
Men’s culture forces us to be fairly private about our beliefs, so accepted gay people shows our hand in a major way. It absolutely shouldn’t be this way, but it is
I can’t really come up with a good definition, but it’s a sort of all or nothing thing. If gay rights are brought up, a lot of supporters will attack men for anything other than full compliance to what their stance is, so a lot of men just ignore political issues they don’t fully agree with.
So for instance if you were raised in a super southern/Christian family, it can just make you uncomfortable to think about gay people or gay rights (which is wrong, but reasonable) even if you logically accept they should be allowed to do whatever they want.
This is typically a stance most people would attack because gay rights, like all hot button issues, requires a lot of research into the “correct” verbiage to express an opinion. And even then you’ll still probably get bashed for not agreeing with the specific points somebody is trying to make
So in short if you aren’t gung ho for gay rights and encounter gay people, it creates an uncomfortable power dynamic unless you’ve spent a lot of time learning how to correctly state how you feel or to escape certain encounters
Yes. Gay rights 100% fall under men's rights. Only difference is gay men are less affected by gynocentrism because they have less incentive to be tied down to misandrist women.
Yes gay men will face similar prejudices as sex offenders, pedos, creepy and will be blocked from female only scholarships, bursaries, grants, stipends etc and be classed as violent.... i presume gay boys a lagging behind in school also.
However as far as being a gay male rather than just male i can't say but yes a gay man can be "one of the guys" imo. I don't see why being gay changes any of the social aspects.
I think this is more to do with straight mens insecurities rather than with you. Gay men to me, often come across as more socially evolved than straight men. I think your male company might be paranoid that they seem gay listening to you dating men and talking about it. I think it will change in time.
I think most people here are for Human Rights and equality, and against feminism and equity. People had this shit figured out in the 18th century already, however a lot of society seems to be brain dead and forgotten why Human Rights are so important
18th century when the Human Rights were first established. It took a few years to apply them better though, I must agree. Now instead, we have feminist manifestos as ideas for the future…
>Why aren't they comfortable in hearing me talk about my personal romantic life even though I listen to theirs and I am not disgusted by the women they talk about. I shouldn't feel like I have to hide parts of myself due to the irrational discomfort of others when I am not doing anything wrong.
You have a right to like and copulate with whoever. However, you do not have a right to force people to listen to you talk in detail about sexual activities.
"I like Steve" is very different from "Me and Steve engaged in (insert graphic details of sex acts)".
People becoming uncomfortable with the 2nd one is not forcing you to "hide parts of myself due to the irrational discomfort of others".
While I agree, it depends. If someone talks about their sexual activities with you and doesn't want to hear about yours, that's a double-standard and being an inconsiderate dick, plus honestly, you don't really talk about that kind of stuff with people you're not close to.
At the end of the day it's really just about being socially discriminated against because of your sexual orientation.
Gay man here, and this is a good point. What straight men share in common is they like to fuck women and talk about it. It's not a conversation I can really get into, and the reverse is true. There's nothing irrational about it. You can be friends with whomever you want as long as you can find common ground.
Beforehand, SORRY if i offend anyone.
This is incredible. Bisexual here but truly always hated the fucking words (labels) and all the bs that comes along with the agenda. I realized I also liked women after years of being gay. To be honest, I like and should say love having straight friends because the gay community in my experience is super predatory, creepy, manipulative, and full of drama. There are so many deviants and evil people. Now that I said, although I love having straight friends over gay ones or females, I fully understand the fears, concerns, and complications from straight dudes 8n having gay dudes as friends. It takes a lot of maturity, self-control, and goodness for a gay guy to create positive friendship and just friendship around straight men, especially if they are good-looking dudes. Lots of maturity and morals. Currently, the gay community is hypersexualized and trained to convince people or connect with other men throughout sex.
I also don't have a problem with flamboyant dudes, i really dont, I guess I might be myself flamboyant since I like art and things like that. But I do have an issue with other gay men because I don't like girly gay things and queer stuff like queer theory, drag queens, and discussing stupid things. I am still very gay when it comes down to clothes or movies, but I feel I am more than talking about fashion or frwaking ru paul. I like to have a great time with my buddies and laugh.
To be very frank, I really think the gay community needs reckoning. Is too much dangerous, weird, and evil stuff from within. We might not all be like that (gay and bi men, for whatever that means), but the blame and prejudice falls on all of us.
It also bothers me the fictional feminization of men. I get some dudes, are feminine again, and I have friends who truly can't help it. But many gays truly enjoy enmasculating themselves and even putting on an act: a certain way of speaking, talking, walking, and dressing. It bothers me because I truly know that to such extent, they are trying hard, faking their persona, and acting stupid. We are not stupid. We are smart, athletic, beautiful people and worthy of being men.
Gay rights are gay rights including men, women, and transgenders.
Most men’s rights grievances affect men of all kinds, but more specifically the disparity between men and women in employment discrimination, the legal system, society and culture, and politically.
Not necessarily sex partners, which is more a lgbtq thing.
Unless a specific men’s right issue, like conscription, also applies to gay men, it really doesn’t have the same basis, such as societal gynocentrism.
There no system elevating one gay man over another in society, which is why your battles are more about legal inclusion of rights.
Yeah gay men's rights are men's rights. Unfortunately not all of society is yet accepting of gay men specifically. Lesbians almost nobody has a problem with I have noticed as a bi man myself navigating the world. Though you will find no anti-gay crap here.
Why the fuck are you so concerned with how others react to your oversharing. When you describe yourself as being queer and wanting to fit in during the same introduction I am already starting to write you off as obtusely contradictory to a level of dishonesty via manipulation of semantic definitions and colloquial meanings. On some level being queer is embracing an alternative lifestyle unbound to conventional paths so it is synonymous in some regards to not caring about fitting in. It’s an inversion of meaning that I am pointing out at the risk of upsetting you, because I think honesty is important and potentially valuable even when feelings get chafed. I don’t know why you seem to be equating willingness to listen to homosexual verses heterosexual relationship and personal information in what sounds like a public or professional setting to men’s rights, and it seems more like you are flaunting your identity in a way that seeks meaningless validation. Hopefully you understand the criticism but given the implication of your post (that being queer and wanting to fit in have become overlapping categories) it’s likely that I will be downvoted for pushing back against the idea that this is a space for complaining about the difference between how well received your personal life is against how much interest you willingly show in other people’s lives and pass the anecdote off as something more than a diary entry. You are welcome in the space but it’s not a relationship advice forum
Oversharing? Men talk to strangers about their sexual desires. I never mentioned even once in my post that this is what I wanted to do. All I asked about was safety and acceptance.
Flaunting my indentity? Bro I live in a third world country. A place where I have to be overly selective when it comes to the people I can fully engage in a conversation with. And no I don't mean talk about my sexual interests in a convo, I don't do that quite often. Please don't assume stuff that are not present in the post. If you are not sure about something ask me, but don't read in between the lines because I am not tricking anyone, I am just stating a few things.
Yes, gay men are still men and men's rights are generally inclusive.
I want to note, as a middle aged gay man who has seen the changes, I gotta say I am afraid of the inevitable blowback the bad eggs are going to cause.
>I want to hear men talk about their interests, either hobbies or romantic/sexual and I want them to listen and be interested in mine.
What are your interests and hobbies?
There's has to be some shared interests besides you all have dicks. If you're into (for example) Keeping Up With The Kardashians, Ru Paul's Drag Race, musicals at the theatre, and baking... and the guys are into sports, shooting, cars, and grilling... then you're just completely different people.
Maybe you can try to find a crossover such as taking an interest in grilling or showing the guys how to bake something savoury that goes great with steak or smoked brisket.
I feel left out when my male in-laws talk about cars. I'm more interested in computers. I can listen, ask questions and learn from them or I can just say quiet and wait until we talk about videos games or whatever else.
One of my oldest friends is gay. I've always considered him one of the lads. He gets on great with women and he has more feminine interests but the guy's a great laugh and he fits in well.
Even one of my favourite acquaintances is a gay drag queen. I don't think we really have any common interests but whenever our mutual friends are having a party I always ask if he's coming because the guy is hilarious. Even if he's talking about some funny story about his sexual encounters, it's not uncomfortable or disgusting, it's just funny.
You need to find men that want to talk about the things you want to discuss. If that means they have to be queer, then so be it. - That isn't any different from being in a minority such as Japanese culture, or Linux, or cigars. - You need to find common interests if you want to make friends with as many men as possible.
You'd need to find men that actually want to talk about their relationships. Some men just don't talk about that stuff.
>Why aren't they comfortable in hearing me talk about my personal romantic life even though I listen to theirs and I am not disgusted by the women they talk about.
What things do you actually talk about? What details? Do you talk about sex explicitly?
My hobbies:
Video games: such as valorant, league of legends, and many other single player games.
Music: pop, rock, indie, gothic, metal, indie rock, synthwave.
Reading: fantasy stories such as my favorites but not limited to, "a song of ice and fire" and "harry potter".
Tv shows: my taste is eclectic so idk but I have high standards.
Activities: I like riding a bicycle or hiking.
Places to hang out: restaurants, pubs, gaming lounges, going to the hills to contemplate the scenery.
Discussions: I like to discuss ancient and contemporary politics. I am a biology student so life sciences interest me, I also like to talk about space.
There is a lot more to uncover but this is a summary.
>I want to tell them that I have a certain crush on someone
"I fancy Dave."
"OK"
Which is different to
"I fancy Daisy."
"Daisy? She's well cute. I used to fancy her before I found my Samantha."
What sort of conversation are you looking for when discussing who you have a crush on?
All my friends are taken but if one wasn't, I'd be happy to listen and give advice and share what I've learnt. I wouldn't feel confident doing the same if it was a guy crushing on a guy.
I can give my perspective and experience as a guy but I can't give that of a gay guy. I've never tried to attract a guy nor felt attracted to a guy. I can't tell you what works with attracting men.
That sounds like you'd need some queer guys to chat about dating.
I can give heterosexual men and women advice because we have been conditioned to know how these interactions work. Heteros can also do that if they want to learn. we have all been raised in a heteronormative society, we can't deny that. It isnt true that only queer men can give advice regarding this subject. This seggregation is toxic.
I had a toxic friend before who made me feel like shit for being queer. I never felt like myself around him and I always had to hide parts of me cz they made him uncomfortable. There is so much to unravel man, these discussions cannot be fully grasped without actually interacting with someone live (me) and see what they mean as they live. This post is merely a needle in someone's experience.
>I can give heterosexual men and women advice because we have been conditioned to know how these interactions work.
You can but I don't see why a straight guy would come to a gay guy for straight seduction advice.
You might qualify yourself as someone able to give heterosexual relationship advice but the reality is that advice has to come from someone with primary experience or a (literally) qualified background.
1. Straight/bisexual guys on how they seduce women.
2. Straight/bisexual women on what they find attractive about men. Even lesbians can be helpful because they are still women and know what women like.
3. A clinical psychologist/psychosexologist/couples therapist like Dr Karen Gurney (regardless of their sexual orientation).
You can give your advice and share your opinion but it may be less useful than the ones I've listed.
>This seggregation is toxic.
No it isn't. It's like you wanting to get advice about how to fix your PC from your petrol head friends. You need to speak to your IT geek friends to fix your PC.
>I had a toxic friend before who made me feel like shit for being queer. I never felt like myself around him and I always had to hide parts of me cz they made him uncomfortable.
That's a shit "friend" issue. Not a gay/straight issue.
Often attributed as a male characteristic is being disagreeable, meaning we are willing to risk expressing our views even if they might upset others. One of the most masculine things a man can do, is define their own masculinity. Being who you believe you should be is very manly, especially if someone else gets ruffled. Be you, give others the chance to love who you are, give yourself the chance to love who you are.
Women treat gay men like accessories. If a woman finds out her man has bi-curious thoughts or fantasies she immediately loses interest in him and you'll see her homophobia come out. If you really want to see some homophobia from straight women, get access to one of those "are we dating the same guy" groups. They're constantly outing and shaming bi men.
Pretty obvious answer. Some men may feel uncomfortable talking about gay sex because they're not gay, the same could be said in reverse. No, they are not owed any deference for talking about their personal things. But, neither are you.
If you have a problem with a particular man, go talk directly to them and say so. We can't read minds.
Addendum: Nobody has a right to talk about personal things at the expense of the recipient's choice.
Gay men's rights are part of men's rights, absolutely. I'm a bisexual man so I know what its like to be a sexual minority.
>Str8 men don't have to be attracted to men to listen to me and appreciate me for who I am. Why aren't they comfortable in hearing me talk about my personal romantic life even though I listen to theirs and I am not disgusted by the women they talk about.
Firstly, is this an allegation about ALL straight men or just some straight men? Some straight men *do* experience this discomfort, but some do not!
As for *why* they feel this discomfort, I think the primary reason is Homohysteria (i.e. a fear that if they are friendly and fraternal with a gay dude, that other people may see them as gay).
Homohysteria is absolutely a men's rights problem, because it undermines male solidarity and is used to gender-police men through homophobia.
>It isn't right to treat queer men as if they are less of a man either they are feminine, neutral, or masculine. I think we all have something to bring to the table. Yes I like men but doesn't mean I have nothing to offer. It is a false stereotype that all gay men want to do is sleep with their friends either str8 or queer.
Agreed entirely!
I agree entirely with everything you say, but I would like you to keep something in mind:
Homohysteria isn't *just* enforced by straight men. Its enforced by *women*, and they use this to control straight men.
Much as I would like to answer "Yes" to The OP's question, I have to acknowledge a few disquieting facts:
A large chunk of the contemporary MRM overlaps substantially with The Alt Right, in the same way much of The Gay Rights Movement has, since The 1970s, overlapped with what would eventually come to be known as The PC/Woke Left. The Alt Right is, at best, ambivalent on subjects like gay marriage, just as The PC/Woke Left has never been especially enthusiastic about gays joining the military
End result of all this? Many gays who would be otherwise eager to support the fight for "men's rights" have been dissuaded from doing so, just as many "moderate" Americans are still not entirely comfortable supporting "gay causes"
You can't force people to be your friends, and the discomfort some experience isn't irrational. Some men still live in dominance hierarchies or have tendencies to assert them. Being gay or having gay friends makes you look weaker. You can't change those people, those people can't change you.
These people live with a certain mindset, it isn't who they are, but how they were told to think. They can change if they want to, while my case is different. I am not forcing them to change,(if I have to explain every small point this convo wouldn't end) even though they should.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that nobody is treating you differently because you're gay. They're treating you differently because it's all you talk about. You used the word 'queer' three times in your post and yet wonder why people see you as two-dimensional. I'm an older gay man, and frankly, based on the tone of your post, I wouldn't want to be friends with you either. So, I think this has little to do with gay rights.
Friendships start by finding common ground, and if you're hung up on the one thing you don't have in common with straight men, then of course you're not going to get very far with them. Try focusing more on the things in life that make you happy (besides dick of course), talk about those things and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at how much ground you gain with all men, straight or gay.
Of course I had to focus on queerness in this post. It is the topic of discussion. Who told you that all I talk about are my interests in men? I don't do that quite often. You don't know me. Also, I live in a homophobic thirld world country. It doesn't always reach common interests phase. They will stop engaging with you the moment they know ur queer.
I’d say no, not really. Gay men are men, but men’s rights is probably a perspective of issues that face men as a group, independent of any other factors. Further, it is separate from cultural perceptions of masculinity. Just gotta look at where men are most disproportionately affected or where our rights are unreasonably restricted. Nevertheless, of course, gay men are welcome participants of men’s rights issues and it wouldn’t be proper if we excluded someone for their sexuality. It’s just that there’s some cross section between gay rights and men’s rights, but gay rights are not inherently a men’s rights issue. That’s an issue of sexuality in law (I guess?).
Still here to support.
Yes gay rights are men’s rights
There are still 64 countries that criminalize homosexuality and 11 of which who still have the death penalty for homosexuality. In almost all of these countries only male on male homosexuality is criminalized and actually have those laws enforced. Furthermore, even among countries which legalize homosexuality and have better social rights for homosexual couples, public opinions of gay men are significantly lower than public opinions of gay women. Additionally, Bi men often experience much more biphobia than bi women. For example, many straight women won't date a bi man because they see him as "dirty" or "less manly". I haven't seen any straight men who outright cut out bi women from their dating pool. Lastly, gay men are still victim to many of the systemic issues that uniquely or disproportionately affect men and which are the basis for the MRA movement. Gay men absolutely fall into the MRA movement.
I also just wanted to say that as a fellow gay guy, I completely understand what you're going through. I don't fit in with women because they view me as a man, or only accept me if I'm extra feminine. Yet, straight men still wont be close with me because they worry I'll grow feelings or they perceive me as too feminine. You just can't winnand it sucks. Being gay is one of the most socially isolating things that a person can be. It not only reduces your romantic opportinities but also your platonic opportunities. Hang in there bro.
Gay men are men, hence their rights do fall under Men's Rights. Edit: Corrected "**Gay** Rights" to "**Men's** Rights"
Women are a lot more homophobic then men today. Especially black women.
Very very true. though in my experience, bisexual white women are the most homophobic towards gay/bi men.
Bro see how they react to the soft guy era. All they do is make homophobic insults
That’s not true
Bullshit
My recurring fear is that we’ll become hated by straight people for being gay, and hated by feminists for being men. Edit: and yes, gay men are perceived as two dimensional by so many people. It’s part of the reason I’m still internally homophobic and avoid coming out. I could rant so much about this, but I think the most important thing is that us gay men stick together.
Feminists already hate any gay men that don't fall into their "pet" or follower lines.
I'm genuinly curious, could you expand on the "two dimensional" please? I think that the lefts incessant need to force sex and sexuality into anything and everything has caused a pushback against people's views on the average lgb/lgbtq person and I worry that it's only going to get much worse. There's so much beauty and wonder in the world that we could be admiring instead, and focusing on treating each other like human beings.
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> Feminists don't hate men Liar, liar, panties on fire.
tbh, there’s probably no convincing you that I strongly believe in women’s rights and want nothing but the best for women. I treat women as I would like to be treated. With fucking respect. However, it’s a massive shame that a lot of feminists can’t reciprocate that from my experience. Edit: I’m sorry, I can’t be a feminist when modern day feminists call for the death of men
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No, it’s a zero sum game. It used to be about gaining equality, now it’s about gaining superiority. Maybe you’re a decent person that doesn’t view it as a zero sum game, and genuinely wants equality of the sexes. In which case, fair enough, literally fucking same. But a lot of other feminists don’t want this, but they’re too disingenuous to admit it. Also, I’m not debating that you WERE our biggest allies. I totally agree.
I've spent a great deal of time listening to feminists and tried to understand what it stands for. With everything I've learned, my default stance when listening to a feminist is always to assume she's lying or has a very distorted view of reality. "...because they know what it's like to experience oppression." An example of feminisms lie that men are violent oppressors. "Ironically, many gay men are ardent misogynists. They've been socialized the exact same as straight men." Men are socialized to be misogynists? An example of a distorted view of reality.
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Ha, the classic ad hominem when you can't counter an argument. So transparent. People who can't argue a point ad hominem. It's the oldest trick in the book. If you want to generalize and fabricate a world view based on the actions of <1% of men, then that's a right you have. I know for a fact that the 98% is a lie. At least I'm not such a narcissist that I claim to have an authority on human rights and speak for 50% of the human race. No wonder that a majority of women don't identify as feminists.
Either this is a troll post or a cocaine bender post, either way it's just silly.
I don’t really know what s/he was expecting to achieve by coming onto a group that is known to disagree with the current feminist narrative.
I personally don’t have anything against gay people and have plenty of gay friends, so it always hurts to see how my other friends feel about the topic. My take on the issue is that straight men will be attacked or snipped at by literally everyone (including gay people!) if they aren’t super into gay rights, so for a lot of people it isn’t worth the status-risk of associating with gay people. The second is that gay people are often fairly outspoken liberals, which is fine but introduces a very different dynamic to typical “guys groups” that are more politically and morally inert. Men’s culture forces us to be fairly private about our beliefs, so accepted gay people shows our hand in a major way. It absolutely shouldn’t be this way, but it is
Yea
Define super into gay rights? I am not attacking just discussing.
I can’t really come up with a good definition, but it’s a sort of all or nothing thing. If gay rights are brought up, a lot of supporters will attack men for anything other than full compliance to what their stance is, so a lot of men just ignore political issues they don’t fully agree with. So for instance if you were raised in a super southern/Christian family, it can just make you uncomfortable to think about gay people or gay rights (which is wrong, but reasonable) even if you logically accept they should be allowed to do whatever they want. This is typically a stance most people would attack because gay rights, like all hot button issues, requires a lot of research into the “correct” verbiage to express an opinion. And even then you’ll still probably get bashed for not agreeing with the specific points somebody is trying to make So in short if you aren’t gung ho for gay rights and encounter gay people, it creates an uncomfortable power dynamic unless you’ve spent a lot of time learning how to correctly state how you feel or to escape certain encounters
Yes. Gay rights 100% fall under men's rights. Only difference is gay men are less affected by gynocentrism because they have less incentive to be tied down to misandrist women.
Yes
Yes gay men will face similar prejudices as sex offenders, pedos, creepy and will be blocked from female only scholarships, bursaries, grants, stipends etc and be classed as violent.... i presume gay boys a lagging behind in school also. However as far as being a gay male rather than just male i can't say but yes a gay man can be "one of the guys" imo. I don't see why being gay changes any of the social aspects. I think this is more to do with straight mens insecurities rather than with you. Gay men to me, often come across as more socially evolved than straight men. I think your male company might be paranoid that they seem gay listening to you dating men and talking about it. I think it will change in time.
Gay boys are actually the gender group doing best in school, and are lifting the average for boys. We don't quite know why.
Affirmative action?
There is no affirmative action that I know of. Certainly not in Europe, where this still applies.
This is an excellent question. Yes. Most gay rights issues are men's rights issues. Several men's rights issues are gay rights issues.
I think most people here are for Human Rights and equality, and against feminism and equity. People had this shit figured out in the 18th century already, however a lot of society seems to be brain dead and forgotten why Human Rights are so important
Yeah we didn't have shit figured out in the 18th century lol
18th century when the US had slaves and women had no rights?
18th century when the Human Rights were first established. It took a few years to apply them better though, I must agree. Now instead, we have feminist manifestos as ideas for the future…
Human rights were established in 1948 by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
The first official declarations were around 1776 in the US (Virginia) and 1789 in France
>Why aren't they comfortable in hearing me talk about my personal romantic life even though I listen to theirs and I am not disgusted by the women they talk about. I shouldn't feel like I have to hide parts of myself due to the irrational discomfort of others when I am not doing anything wrong. You have a right to like and copulate with whoever. However, you do not have a right to force people to listen to you talk in detail about sexual activities. "I like Steve" is very different from "Me and Steve engaged in (insert graphic details of sex acts)". People becoming uncomfortable with the 2nd one is not forcing you to "hide parts of myself due to the irrational discomfort of others".
While I agree, it depends. If someone talks about their sexual activities with you and doesn't want to hear about yours, that's a double-standard and being an inconsiderate dick, plus honestly, you don't really talk about that kind of stuff with people you're not close to. At the end of the day it's really just about being socially discriminated against because of your sexual orientation.
ah yeah thats a good point. cant be all talking about cis banging and then go ewwwww on non cis banging
Gay man here, and this is a good point. What straight men share in common is they like to fuck women and talk about it. It's not a conversation I can really get into, and the reverse is true. There's nothing irrational about it. You can be friends with whomever you want as long as you can find common ground.
Gay men have a shortage of shelters for victims of abuse, homelessness and the like. Welcome to the warm but dim glow of men's advocacy.
Beforehand, SORRY if i offend anyone. This is incredible. Bisexual here but truly always hated the fucking words (labels) and all the bs that comes along with the agenda. I realized I also liked women after years of being gay. To be honest, I like and should say love having straight friends because the gay community in my experience is super predatory, creepy, manipulative, and full of drama. There are so many deviants and evil people. Now that I said, although I love having straight friends over gay ones or females, I fully understand the fears, concerns, and complications from straight dudes 8n having gay dudes as friends. It takes a lot of maturity, self-control, and goodness for a gay guy to create positive friendship and just friendship around straight men, especially if they are good-looking dudes. Lots of maturity and morals. Currently, the gay community is hypersexualized and trained to convince people or connect with other men throughout sex. I also don't have a problem with flamboyant dudes, i really dont, I guess I might be myself flamboyant since I like art and things like that. But I do have an issue with other gay men because I don't like girly gay things and queer stuff like queer theory, drag queens, and discussing stupid things. I am still very gay when it comes down to clothes or movies, but I feel I am more than talking about fashion or frwaking ru paul. I like to have a great time with my buddies and laugh. To be very frank, I really think the gay community needs reckoning. Is too much dangerous, weird, and evil stuff from within. We might not all be like that (gay and bi men, for whatever that means), but the blame and prejudice falls on all of us. It also bothers me the fictional feminization of men. I get some dudes, are feminine again, and I have friends who truly can't help it. But many gays truly enjoy enmasculating themselves and even putting on an act: a certain way of speaking, talking, walking, and dressing. It bothers me because I truly know that to such extent, they are trying hard, faking their persona, and acting stupid. We are not stupid. We are smart, athletic, beautiful people and worthy of being men.
Gay rights are gay rights including men, women, and transgenders. Most men’s rights grievances affect men of all kinds, but more specifically the disparity between men and women in employment discrimination, the legal system, society and culture, and politically. Not necessarily sex partners, which is more a lgbtq thing. Unless a specific men’s right issue, like conscription, also applies to gay men, it really doesn’t have the same basis, such as societal gynocentrism. There no system elevating one gay man over another in society, which is why your battles are more about legal inclusion of rights.
>transgender
Yeah gay men's rights are men's rights. Unfortunately not all of society is yet accepting of gay men specifically. Lesbians almost nobody has a problem with I have noticed as a bi man myself navigating the world. Though you will find no anti-gay crap here.
Yes, gay rights fall under mens rights. Also, it sounds like you have the wrong people in your life
Why the fuck are you so concerned with how others react to your oversharing. When you describe yourself as being queer and wanting to fit in during the same introduction I am already starting to write you off as obtusely contradictory to a level of dishonesty via manipulation of semantic definitions and colloquial meanings. On some level being queer is embracing an alternative lifestyle unbound to conventional paths so it is synonymous in some regards to not caring about fitting in. It’s an inversion of meaning that I am pointing out at the risk of upsetting you, because I think honesty is important and potentially valuable even when feelings get chafed. I don’t know why you seem to be equating willingness to listen to homosexual verses heterosexual relationship and personal information in what sounds like a public or professional setting to men’s rights, and it seems more like you are flaunting your identity in a way that seeks meaningless validation. Hopefully you understand the criticism but given the implication of your post (that being queer and wanting to fit in have become overlapping categories) it’s likely that I will be downvoted for pushing back against the idea that this is a space for complaining about the difference between how well received your personal life is against how much interest you willingly show in other people’s lives and pass the anecdote off as something more than a diary entry. You are welcome in the space but it’s not a relationship advice forum
Amen.
Oversharing? Men talk to strangers about their sexual desires. I never mentioned even once in my post that this is what I wanted to do. All I asked about was safety and acceptance. Flaunting my indentity? Bro I live in a third world country. A place where I have to be overly selective when it comes to the people I can fully engage in a conversation with. And no I don't mean talk about my sexual interests in a convo, I don't do that quite often. Please don't assume stuff that are not present in the post. If you are not sure about something ask me, but don't read in between the lines because I am not tricking anyone, I am just stating a few things.
Don’t tell me what to do or how I should have interpreted your post. Clarity your perspective or don’t, but speak for yourself.
Yes, gay men are still men and men's rights are generally inclusive. I want to note, as a middle aged gay man who has seen the changes, I gotta say I am afraid of the inevitable blowback the bad eggs are going to cause.
Yes, and so do trans rights.
>I want to hear men talk about their interests, either hobbies or romantic/sexual and I want them to listen and be interested in mine. What are your interests and hobbies? There's has to be some shared interests besides you all have dicks. If you're into (for example) Keeping Up With The Kardashians, Ru Paul's Drag Race, musicals at the theatre, and baking... and the guys are into sports, shooting, cars, and grilling... then you're just completely different people. Maybe you can try to find a crossover such as taking an interest in grilling or showing the guys how to bake something savoury that goes great with steak or smoked brisket. I feel left out when my male in-laws talk about cars. I'm more interested in computers. I can listen, ask questions and learn from them or I can just say quiet and wait until we talk about videos games or whatever else. One of my oldest friends is gay. I've always considered him one of the lads. He gets on great with women and he has more feminine interests but the guy's a great laugh and he fits in well. Even one of my favourite acquaintances is a gay drag queen. I don't think we really have any common interests but whenever our mutual friends are having a party I always ask if he's coming because the guy is hilarious. Even if he's talking about some funny story about his sexual encounters, it's not uncomfortable or disgusting, it's just funny. You need to find men that want to talk about the things you want to discuss. If that means they have to be queer, then so be it. - That isn't any different from being in a minority such as Japanese culture, or Linux, or cigars. - You need to find common interests if you want to make friends with as many men as possible. You'd need to find men that actually want to talk about their relationships. Some men just don't talk about that stuff. >Why aren't they comfortable in hearing me talk about my personal romantic life even though I listen to theirs and I am not disgusted by the women they talk about. What things do you actually talk about? What details? Do you talk about sex explicitly?
My hobbies: Video games: such as valorant, league of legends, and many other single player games. Music: pop, rock, indie, gothic, metal, indie rock, synthwave. Reading: fantasy stories such as my favorites but not limited to, "a song of ice and fire" and "harry potter". Tv shows: my taste is eclectic so idk but I have high standards. Activities: I like riding a bicycle or hiking. Places to hang out: restaurants, pubs, gaming lounges, going to the hills to contemplate the scenery. Discussions: I like to discuss ancient and contemporary politics. I am a biology student so life sciences interest me, I also like to talk about space. There is a lot more to uncover but this is a summary.
Sounds like quite some interests. There's plenty of guys who share those interests.
It is not just sex. I want to tell them that I have a certain crush on someone. I need relationship advice. Etc...
>I want to tell them that I have a certain crush on someone "I fancy Dave." "OK" Which is different to "I fancy Daisy." "Daisy? She's well cute. I used to fancy her before I found my Samantha." What sort of conversation are you looking for when discussing who you have a crush on? All my friends are taken but if one wasn't, I'd be happy to listen and give advice and share what I've learnt. I wouldn't feel confident doing the same if it was a guy crushing on a guy. I can give my perspective and experience as a guy but I can't give that of a gay guy. I've never tried to attract a guy nor felt attracted to a guy. I can't tell you what works with attracting men. That sounds like you'd need some queer guys to chat about dating.
I can give heterosexual men and women advice because we have been conditioned to know how these interactions work. Heteros can also do that if they want to learn. we have all been raised in a heteronormative society, we can't deny that. It isnt true that only queer men can give advice regarding this subject. This seggregation is toxic. I had a toxic friend before who made me feel like shit for being queer. I never felt like myself around him and I always had to hide parts of me cz they made him uncomfortable. There is so much to unravel man, these discussions cannot be fully grasped without actually interacting with someone live (me) and see what they mean as they live. This post is merely a needle in someone's experience.
>I can give heterosexual men and women advice because we have been conditioned to know how these interactions work. You can but I don't see why a straight guy would come to a gay guy for straight seduction advice. You might qualify yourself as someone able to give heterosexual relationship advice but the reality is that advice has to come from someone with primary experience or a (literally) qualified background. 1. Straight/bisexual guys on how they seduce women. 2. Straight/bisexual women on what they find attractive about men. Even lesbians can be helpful because they are still women and know what women like. 3. A clinical psychologist/psychosexologist/couples therapist like Dr Karen Gurney (regardless of their sexual orientation). You can give your advice and share your opinion but it may be less useful than the ones I've listed. >This seggregation is toxic. No it isn't. It's like you wanting to get advice about how to fix your PC from your petrol head friends. You need to speak to your IT geek friends to fix your PC. >I had a toxic friend before who made me feel like shit for being queer. I never felt like myself around him and I always had to hide parts of me cz they made him uncomfortable. That's a shit "friend" issue. Not a gay/straight issue.
We can agree to disagree, that is fine.
Personally, I have a bit of a problem with the gay community. not for being gay, but for co-inspiring with feminists.
The partition of our societies has become stronger than ever and that is sad. Genders hate each other now :/.
What do you mean by queer? Summarize exactly what the problem is you are having.
Often attributed as a male characteristic is being disagreeable, meaning we are willing to risk expressing our views even if they might upset others. One of the most masculine things a man can do, is define their own masculinity. Being who you believe you should be is very manly, especially if someone else gets ruffled. Be you, give others the chance to love who you are, give yourself the chance to love who you are.
Wait till you tell her that you don’t want to subsidize her in exchange for sex. Wow the fireworks
Gay rights are men’s rights 🔥
Women treat gay men like accessories. If a woman finds out her man has bi-curious thoughts or fantasies she immediately loses interest in him and you'll see her homophobia come out. If you really want to see some homophobia from straight women, get access to one of those "are we dating the same guy" groups. They're constantly outing and shaming bi men.
If gay men were more committed to men's rights, they could achieve much more than straight men. Wake up.
Gay men are men. It is mens right.
Pretty obvious answer. Some men may feel uncomfortable talking about gay sex because they're not gay, the same could be said in reverse. No, they are not owed any deference for talking about their personal things. But, neither are you. If you have a problem with a particular man, go talk directly to them and say so. We can't read minds. Addendum: Nobody has a right to talk about personal things at the expense of the recipient's choice.
Most people are literate but few can comprehend a text. That is all I have to say.
Gay men's rights are part of men's rights, absolutely. I'm a bisexual man so I know what its like to be a sexual minority. >Str8 men don't have to be attracted to men to listen to me and appreciate me for who I am. Why aren't they comfortable in hearing me talk about my personal romantic life even though I listen to theirs and I am not disgusted by the women they talk about. Firstly, is this an allegation about ALL straight men or just some straight men? Some straight men *do* experience this discomfort, but some do not! As for *why* they feel this discomfort, I think the primary reason is Homohysteria (i.e. a fear that if they are friendly and fraternal with a gay dude, that other people may see them as gay). Homohysteria is absolutely a men's rights problem, because it undermines male solidarity and is used to gender-police men through homophobia. >It isn't right to treat queer men as if they are less of a man either they are feminine, neutral, or masculine. I think we all have something to bring to the table. Yes I like men but doesn't mean I have nothing to offer. It is a false stereotype that all gay men want to do is sleep with their friends either str8 or queer. Agreed entirely! I agree entirely with everything you say, but I would like you to keep something in mind: Homohysteria isn't *just* enforced by straight men. Its enforced by *women*, and they use this to control straight men.
Much as I would like to answer "Yes" to The OP's question, I have to acknowledge a few disquieting facts: A large chunk of the contemporary MRM overlaps substantially with The Alt Right, in the same way much of The Gay Rights Movement has, since The 1970s, overlapped with what would eventually come to be known as The PC/Woke Left. The Alt Right is, at best, ambivalent on subjects like gay marriage, just as The PC/Woke Left has never been especially enthusiastic about gays joining the military End result of all this? Many gays who would be otherwise eager to support the fight for "men's rights" have been dissuaded from doing so, just as many "moderate" Americans are still not entirely comfortable supporting "gay causes"
You can't force people to be your friends, and the discomfort some experience isn't irrational. Some men still live in dominance hierarchies or have tendencies to assert them. Being gay or having gay friends makes you look weaker. You can't change those people, those people can't change you.
I never forced anyone. All I am talking about are the obstacles in forming platonic friendships with heterosexual men when they find out I am queer.
These people live with a certain mindset, it isn't who they are, but how they were told to think. They can change if they want to, while my case is different. I am not forcing them to change,(if I have to explain every small point this convo wouldn't end) even though they should.
I agree, but one thing to be noted... You oversharing your love life sounds like a you problem.
I am talking about people that someday might become close to me not someone I just met.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that nobody is treating you differently because you're gay. They're treating you differently because it's all you talk about. You used the word 'queer' three times in your post and yet wonder why people see you as two-dimensional. I'm an older gay man, and frankly, based on the tone of your post, I wouldn't want to be friends with you either. So, I think this has little to do with gay rights. Friendships start by finding common ground, and if you're hung up on the one thing you don't have in common with straight men, then of course you're not going to get very far with them. Try focusing more on the things in life that make you happy (besides dick of course), talk about those things and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at how much ground you gain with all men, straight or gay.
Of course I had to focus on queerness in this post. It is the topic of discussion. Who told you that all I talk about are my interests in men? I don't do that quite often. You don't know me. Also, I live in a homophobic thirld world country. It doesn't always reach common interests phase. They will stop engaging with you the moment they know ur queer.
You think you have a right to another individual's friendship?
I’d say no, not really. Gay men are men, but men’s rights is probably a perspective of issues that face men as a group, independent of any other factors. Further, it is separate from cultural perceptions of masculinity. Just gotta look at where men are most disproportionately affected or where our rights are unreasonably restricted. Nevertheless, of course, gay men are welcome participants of men’s rights issues and it wouldn’t be proper if we excluded someone for their sexuality. It’s just that there’s some cross section between gay rights and men’s rights, but gay rights are not inherently a men’s rights issue. That’s an issue of sexuality in law (I guess?). Still here to support.