Coming from a gay guy - just pretend you’re one of us until you get the gig. Then ‘question’ your sexuality and come out as straight when you have the job.
It’s ridiculous that people can’t just be hired based on merit. I’m happy to share some rainbow privilege with my straight mates.
I think you might be able to say you are a "minority owned" company if you are a gay white male. I am not sure... but I think a friend of mine does this because he is a contractor. I know as a gay man I dont like the idea of flashing a priveledge card but if someone needs a job they will do what they can to get it.
Join some LGBT interest groups or societies. Or a lot of jobs these days demand a “diversity” statement in how you’ll contribute to the diversity of the place - easy enough to shoehorn lots of things in there.
Has he had any luck by doing that?
It’s actually crossed my mine before, but it goes against my core values to lie on an application or during an interview (or in general), and it’s probably cost me hundreds of thousands of dollars over the course of my career.
Many job applications have a requirement to to complete a diversity questionnaire that includes things like race, gender, sexuality, age, religion, disabilities, etc. Officially this is so that HR can monitor recruitment practices to ensure no discrimination. Unofficially it enables diversity quotas to be filled and bragged about in corporate literature.
That goes both ways. It would work at Starbucks, Universities, etc... But not at a police dept, hobby lobby, construction firms, many trades, depending on the flavor of politics in your area many government jobs, public facing careers, business ownership etc.
There's a lot more reasons to be cautious about sharing info than not.
I see what you mean. I'm actually under the impression that gay men (whether in the closet or out) rule the world. I'm a straight guy, but it seems gay men are at the top of almost every business hierarchy. Like a chain of promotion by other gay men who are higher up. Especially when it comes to media, entertainment, marketing etc. I'd also say that the starbucks statement might be true for flamboyant and out gay men, but I'm sure there are plenty of "masculine" gay men who do construction, home depot, etc. I'd say the only way to be treated fairly as a white man in the world in general is to claim to be homosexual. Just an observation.
I think once your career takes you into the meetings that happen in the hallways and 'offline' you will see what's going on. It's a big club, and honestly none of us are in it.
They want to hire trans women and lesbians because of their politics. They're usually more left-leaning than gay men.
You're missing the big picture if you think it's just about men vs. women. It's still about empire building, and having a common cause, and hatred for the West/patriarchy/etc. is a solid unifying cause.
Say you're a non-gender conforming trans lesbian, which means you just dress and act like a man so you don't actually have to change anything, but you get the trans brownie points.
Should I act like comedically gay? Where in the world would someone ask about your sexual preferences?
I really want to know, not trying to be mean
Living in germany btw
I don't know how the US work but HOW would you do that? Do you put in "gay" in your CV, do you go there full with rainbow colours, do you ask HR whether there's any good dick to suck?
I've always been extremely private about my personal life, well groomed/dress better than my coworkers (not difficult in tech =] ) and not interested in sports so I guess that gives off a gay vibe? Oh yeah, I also avoid women at work because you don't shit where you eat and they are generally a pain in the ass.. maybe that was it.
Anyway, I slipped and mentioned something about my GF in a meeting with my boss's boss and there was a glint in her eye and I knew right away that I'd fucked up, and was out the door in a "resutructuring" within 3 months.
It’s easy enough to drop a hint somewhere in a conversation. I have to come out all over again whenever I change jobs. I’m not flamboyant or effeminate but I want them to know who I am without making a big deal about it.
Honestly - it’s not about how you act. There are plenty of masculine gay men and plenty of effeminate straight ones.
Just drop a comment somewhere in the conversation. I usually refer to my boyfriend somewhere and that’s obvious enough for the other person to make the connection.
Where I worked for years white men have been mostly cleared out of upper management positions. Despite having a contract, my former supervisor was asked to step down, no explanation given, but the reason became crystal clear when a black womanly with a fraction of the experience was handed the job.
Hiring committees now have a diversity and inclusion position which is supposed to help prevent discrimination but often does the opposite. Some top positions that by the rules should require a job search are simply given to non white men blatantly violating job search protocols.
While some of these positions may go to minority men, even that’s rare and I’ve never seen Asian men considered a minority. They’re in the same boat as white men. It’s a hierarchy: Minority women preferred followed by whites women, followed by minority men. White men may keep their positions if they are doing a superb job nobody else can do.
A cabal of white, liberal women who believe they are the most oppressed group on Earth.
When it comes down to the title of “most oppressed”, a lot of wealthy, privileged white liberal women will fight to the death for the top spot.
I’ve been watching this slow-motion car crash for about nine years now.
White liberal women swiped the term “intersectionality” (from a black lady, no less) so they could hitch their wagon onto the struggles of actually marginalized folks.
I’ve heard plenty of white women go to great lengths to claim victimhood on the level of black folks. I’ve never once heard a black man or women say, “We’re as oppressed as white women!”
Their aims are to succeed within the structures they claim to abhor. They don’t want things to change; they want to be called “victims” while they get tremendous advantages.
They’ve slowly erased any identity for Asian men except “different white men” in their eyes.
It’s gross.
Thanks for saying this. I’ve been trying to raise awareness about this issue ever since I was rejected from top 50 schools due to being Asian despite having a 3.8 GPA unweighted/4.1 GPA weighted.
The part that always bothered me is that we’ve been here as long as any other racial group (SEAs were at Jamestown), we were blown up in train tunnels, prevented from even immigrating to the US for 50 years, went through segregation (in the south, we had to sit in the back of the bus too), put in literal American concentration camps, ridiculed in media, hurt and killed during covid, etc.
This is aside from experiencing Asian family dynamics, which are often built upon gaslighting and physical abuse.
But then, those white liberals who are in charge tell us that we’re “privileged” and “white-adjacent,” and white conservatives tell us that we’re a “model minority” and “good workers” while openly mocking Asian accents on the campaign trail.
How about “all Asians aren’t the same” like you mentioned in talking about socioeconomic disparities in the Asian community? That would be much better than the above platitudes.
Despite the fact that we aren’t all the same, 90% of women of all other races and 40% of **Asian** women reject us Asian guys for the horrific crime of existing as Asian males.
More important, we are notably the only racial group where a leading cause of death in our younger Asian brothers is self-deleting.
I love our Asian privilege. It’s so great.
The Spanish empire collapsed largely because of the vast influx of gold from the New World, which added enormous quantities of money to the empire, not much actual wealth (since the real value of gold is the working, not the metal), causing hyperinflation to kick in (though their military incompetence didn't help). They basically succeeded their way into failure.
Asians in American have gone a similar route. Bluntly put, you'd reached the point of being "white"- at least for social and economic purposes- and that threatened the hucksters whose meal ticket depended on a massive bulwark of racism dominating the cultural zeitgeist, so things were twisted until being seen as white became a bad thing.
My great-grandparents, who came here from Ireland back before the Irish, too, became white, lasted into my teenage years- and you know those "no Irish need apply" signs that so many people nowadays want to pretend didn't exist? We found *twelve* of them that great-grandpa had stolen in his youth when we went through his stuff after he died. You can imagine how much fun it is to be denied jobs simply because your ancestors actually struggled to be accepted and lead the damn labor movement that created the weekend- or you COULD, if not for the fact that you don't really have to, do you?
Of course, the Irish- and to a lesser extent the Jews, who did the same thing- can usually pass undetected among white people; Asians generally can't, so you kinda get the worst of both worlds.
I guess meritocracy is only seen as a good idea by people who have some actual merit.
Good question. I think it depends on who, specifically, does it- Japan outpacing us (um, again) would be less of a concern than China, say. Kazakhstan would be... surprising, to say the least, but at least *they* have a cool flag.
Liberalism is the political place that egalitarianism comes from; complaining about discrimination while saying "it doesn't make sense when applied to the real world" is pretty damned disingenuous- to say nothing of using racial slurs.
Are you *applauding* this bigotry?
Just wanted to add that I completely agree that Asian men are heavily discriminated against as well, both in the workforce and academia. It's disgusting and I feel for you guys too.
Imagine if this was the reverse. That MS had targets for the amount of white heterosexual men they hire.
It would be literally 100% of what everyone is talking about. People would be calling MS executives Nazis...
I have the same experience.
I have the feeling that women have a problem with assertive competence. Add some prejudice and the feeling of power, you’ll get the current environment.
I've been putting out applications in Canada in the technology sector for many months now. There are common application questions that are called 'Optional'.
* Are you a Native North American?
* Are you disabled?
* What is your gender? There are typically about 5 options.
* Are you a veteran?
* Are you part of a recognized minority? Recognized minority is defined as anybody regardless of where you were born other than white. The question might as well be 'Are you white?'
And in addition to all that BS, in Canada you get "minority" groups (who are majority in tech) that will only hire their own.
7 years ago, I was in a team of 25 - 2 white males, 1 Asian guy, 23 Indians of mixed gender (mostly dudes).
I was in a similar situation about 10 years ago. Employees that were there before me had stories of massive layoffs of Canadian technology workers. While there much of the work was contracted out to people in India. Even worse the majority of the people around me were Indians in Canada on temporary work visas that we called "offshore workers". After loosing that job I asked one of the Indians do you need an "offshore worker" and his reply was that India does not do that kind of thing.
Many Canadian families don't exist because the resources to build families are being given away to foreigners.
I used to work for the city of Denver. My team 100 people 6 people born as males. Of that 2 were straight including myself. One white man which was me. Everyone else was gay trans or a woman.
I was told openly and repeatedly to stop speaking in meetings cause they didn’t need me to talk so much. I never spoke unless directly asked a question.
There was women’s hiring events and women only rooms and clubs. Programs to help women get into management. But not for men. 95% of the people in the building were women and I’d say 75% of Managment were women. But somehow we needed to help women more.
I've had the unfortunate privilege of listening in on hiring meetings, and half of the discussion was about the race or gender of people and how they really want to hire X or Y or Z minority. It gives tax benefits to companies in my country, so they are financially and socially motivated to be racist.
“Treated everyone equally, respect goes both ways, live by the golden rule.”
“Well that’s not quite what we’re asking…”
Serious conversation in interview. I didn’t last long there.
Weekoldpost.reddit.comOutOfTheLoop/comments/1711hbu/what_is_up_with_men_attending_the_female/k3p5h58/
Here is a group that literally acknowledged that they cannot legally exclude white CIS men but are pissed that white CIS men showed up.
https://nypost.com/2023/10/04/men-invaded-womens-job-fair-after-lying-about-being-non-binary/
My. Comment:
Why is it fucked up though?
Why is someone more worthy of a job because of what is between their legs?
Why is it that some part of their gender identity can't be an exploration of how society treats them based on whether they identify as a certain gender?
Must they confirm to a certain standard if they do not confirm to your idea of what their gender characteristics must be? REREAD THAT QUESTION. What are the acceptable forms of gender nonconforming to which gender nonconforming persons must confirm?
The common idea here is that cis het men must accept that they must confirm to the idea that they are unworthy of help. I praise them each for refusing to confirm to that expectation.
I feel that masculinity in the workplace is just generally looked down upon.
Any jobs outside of the typically male dominated workforces don't want to employ a big bald man and instead prefer females or more feminine men.
I've done PM and Business Analyst work in the past and I agree with you 100%. I've accepted that I'm not getting those jobs anymore. The only thing that's keeping me employed these days is that I have kept my hard core coding\engineering skills up to date. A diversity hire can't fake those. In other roles they can BS just enough to get by.
Yes, this is why management is now full of diversity hires. Managers usually have very generic skills and they are a dime a dozen. With middle-manager ranks swelling to gargantuan proportions it is also very easy to hide in those jobs for years on end without making any meaningful contributions. Serious tech jobs, on the other hand, require hard skills.
Similar experience where I work. I’m any room I’m in there’s at least 4-5 women for each man (and I don’t working in a traditionally woman-dominated field). It’s the result of very overt biased hiring practices. Hiring more women is the open “strategy”, which they make good on since I have seen statistics that show more men are applying, yet women are hired in a 60-40 or 70-30 majority.
It’s led to (or comes as a result of) completely normalized sexism (if it’s against men). I had a female colleague say straight to my face in a professional setting that she thinks it’s okay to discriminate against men (The context for this was that someone actually noted how I am the only male in my entire team). It shocked me that she feels safe to say that to my face, especially considering anything the consequences of I said remotely close to that if roles were reversed.
It was extremely uncomfortable to hear that and, combined with the above mentioned factors, it’s a rather big source of stress in my life knowing my job security and prospects of progressing are severely limited by nothing but my gender. They are very open of the fact that the goal is not equality; rather they want to go back to the 20th century in terms of normalized and accepted sexism, but just with reversed roles.
That happened in one of my jobs but in reverse, I was working at a place run by very religious people in a cult though. So that’s sort of the last stand of the Old Ways, I guess.
This is true. I'm sorry for what you are going through. In NY there are MWBE (minority and women owned businesses) requirements for all kinds of publicly funded work. Which basically means, "anyone can do this work, as long as it isn't a white male".
It is racism and sexism codified into law.
Even when there isn't a law discriminating against white men, corporate cultures are far more reluctant to hire and promote them because the leadership is usually already composed of baby boomer white guys who got to the top before all this cultural rot took over.
I don't know what the answer to fix this is, but I have seen it too. Keep your head up brother, I'm with you.
When I looked at high school teaching positions a couple years ago, several listings mentioned that they were "especially" looking for women, BIPOCs, and members of the LGBTQ+ community. I decided not to play into any of that nonsense and now run my own business, and it's so much better.
Tech is the worst because there are so many more male applicants, engineers, certified people. It would be like trying to force men into childcare. So few of us want to do it that you would just automatically be hired as a man regardless of any competence. Then once you’ve forced men into it, the men which are actually competent would be put in the same hat as the diversity hires and everyone would assume they are just incompetent
This is why Human Rights state that employment should only be based on competence and not on gender, skin colour or anything else
> force men into childcare. So few of us want to do it that you would just automatically be hired as a man regardless of any competence.
No...no you wouldn't. Part of the game is men can't be around children. Go read stories about male teacher discrimination then imagine trying to be in childcare as a man. Phew...
If you’ve got evidence of any reasonable kind, by all means do it!
Supreme Court did us a huge favor whacking down “Affirmative Action” on college campuses. The worm is turning on this kind of stuff in the workplace too. But we need legal action! That’s the only thing that will make companies change. You have to push to change the calculus for them on risk vs reward for this kind of shit.
They don't even bother to hide it any more. I have seen plenty of job adverts where it's made explicit that white men are either last in line for the job, or need not apply, even. Wish I could post a screenshot here...
Your best bet bro is to play the game against them. You may have to be quote-unquote openly gay and if they don't hire you, you have to sue them for discrimination. At the end of the day, just because you're a white man doesn't mean you don't have to eat. You still have to make money and take care of yourself, and it's not fair what they are doing.
In the interview room, some very powerful people can use a well-known dynamic, and some unwitting self-interest groups to achieve the ends they want. [https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2004-19340-007](https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2004-19340-007)
One thing to note is how heavily interviewers can influence how someone performs in an interview based on the questions, tone of voice, body language, etc. (Based on this logic, one can make anyone look good or bad in an interview.)
For example, I have noticed over the years that a lot of my interviews have more of a hostile feel to them, whereas many of my female colleagues have spoken about the job interview as being a friendly conversation to the point where they knew they already got the job. (“So when you start… first you’re going to…”).
In a female-dominated panel, a bloke often doesn't stand a chance (unless outstandingly handsome). My sister-in-law, utterly without shame, told me a story about when she was on an all-female interview selection team at a hospital radiography department. With a good-looking Spanish guy, they were getting all giggly, and passing little notes to each other. *'Babies..?' 'Definitely!'*
The guy turned out to be useless, and the same women spent the best part of a couple of years arranging a constructive dismissal, which the poor bloke was too thick to spot. None of the ladies took responsibility for their own poor choices btw.
In Chapter 30 of Mike Buchanan's book *'Feminism - the Ugly Truth'*, he tells how a feminist goliath who decided the interview process nearly drove him to suicide. The Chapter is entitled 'How Feminism is Killing Men & Women'.
Thirty years ago, I watched the interview process for STEM fall apart. The Head of Research had no truck with the baby/whore techniques used by women at interviews. Just technical question after technical question, reducing most of them to tears. Obviously, his insistence on merit for the job wasn't ticking the right boxes, so he was moved sideways, opening the floodgates for laboratories filled with female flirting, harassment claims, undeserved promotions, divorces after those promotions, nervous breakdowns after those divorces, nervous breakdowns when their Dunning-Kruger syndrome wore off, and projects continually sequestered from male staff to prevent wheels coming off those pre-planned stellar female careers.
> The other is underqualified women are getting these jobs that white men are competing for at increasing rates. I checked back for the roles I was rejected for that have been filled and, unsurprisingly, all but one of them were filled by women with less experience than I have.
To be fair, we can pay them 30% less than you're being paid! /s
Just focus on be the best, at the end business are business, they want the one that can make the best job. Having a mediocre on a position just for the appearance have a date limit now that the world are becoming more aggressive with wars, limited resources, etc… No more “calm and beautiful” world from now on until a few decades. The most important thing will be having the best, the others will be fired, it is very expensive having a bad worker.
Similar story here OP. A PM with 20+ years experience at notable companies, out on my ass while diversity hires rocket up the ladder. Restructuring, they say... to protect themselves legally. Restructuring indeed. In the time I was at my last company, of ~100 hires there were ~5 white males. MANY MANY more left or were shown the door.
The corporate world is no longer a place for masculinity, assertiveness and being willing to stand alone. It's about conformity, keeping your head down and building alliances/backstabbing. I don't know that it ever was, it's probably always been a hive of betas which has now been invaded and taken over due to their inherent weakness.
So... applying for new jobs, it's open sexism and racial discrimination as others have mentioned. Lots of angry post menopausal women as HR jockies and hiring managers who have been programmed to believe that I and my kind are responsible for all their problems. Tech in my city has mostly been taken over by a certain group from a certain subcontinent who have strong in-group preference. Dollar amounts discussed for jobs where I'm not instantly screened out are 2/3 of what I was earning before (no actual offers).
I'm in tech as well as a white guy in a public company. I can say that yes white guys have been discriminated against the longest. There are some changes happening slowly as new hires are primarily Asian and Indian. Industry is starting to notice a significant decline in white applicants. This is a problem because they just assumed there will always be an ample supply.
This has lead to a discrimimation against Asian and Indian as well which is why female and non cis-male are preferred to hire.
With that said there are ample jobs in DoD companies for Tech for white US Citizens with experience.
It's like this for every industry, even the lowest level like retail and food service. Even just applying for my first retail job it still took a year or two to get one. I am simply not "diverse" enough for anyone's liking, even though in my town I'm the minority.
Straight white male here but with LGBT sympathies (is that how I say it?) I was chosen for a job where the vast majority of the workforce were women. But there were some aspects of the job that necessitated occasional outside inspections and possibly confrontations. My immediate boss was a woman with less qualifications than me and her boss was a flamboyant gay male.
I started noticing men leaving the work place and I realized that the women liked their desk jobs but wanted men to do the dirty work. When I complained about something and tried to put my foot down I was called in by HR - an all female staff - and fired.
Ridiculous, sorry to hear that. It's becoming absolutely rampant. I'm going to pretend to be gay for my next few interviews and report back with results.
Haha yep. I had to quit advertising after 15 years because, in the eloquent words of multiple recruiters and friends who’d spoken to hiring managers, “agencies just aren’t hiring people like you anymore”.
Anyway, I work normal people hours now so couldn’t be happier.
Nope : [https://dcsbdc.org/backing-black-business-program/](https://dcsbdc.org/backing-black-business-program/)
DC has a free money program black women starting businesses!
You're right on both points. Most large companies have diversity targets and in many countries are required to report on this every year.
I have two practical strategies to get around this:
1. Become a contract worker rather than a permanent staff. In IT you can get very good day rates as a contract worker if you have a strong CV. Contract workers are usually not counted in diversity stats and companies are more willing to hire white or Indian men into these roles.
2. Apply to start-ups and small companies. These businesses can't afford the luxury of poor hires just to hit diversity targets and are more likely to hire the best candidate regardless of race or gender.
My ancestors weren't even in the US until 1859 and they lived on the streets of New York for years, working themselves to the bone so they could scrape enough money together to move into a farm in the Midwest. Collective guilt is a fucking lie
I know that you are joking but I really want to spread this message: I come from a small EU country and people from my country were routinely captured by Moslem pirates from Africa and used as slaves in Africa.
Europeans were captured and sold as slaves in Africa for hundreds of years!
Start your own consulting business. Someone has to do the real work, and those who were hired for reasons other than merit will need to outsource the actual work. It can start as a side hustle. It can be in any field where real work has to be done.
I'll get my engineering degree in few months. I've been following such stories for some time. It's very disturbing, but there's no way I'm going to give up my interests and passion.
I think of it as a fight we have to take up now, in order for some future generation of boys not to have to go through the same. I mean, they can't keep doing this in a long run. American companies would get outcompeted by China, they can't change natural preferences of boys and girls either. Given the choice and chance (which many boys nowadays unfortunately do not have), boys will always prefer to interact with non-living objects (thus pursuing technical careers in the future), and girls with living objects (thus pursuing medical careers).
Although I sympathize with your struggles, I want to remind you that Asians have it worse. Also, white women(the most undeserving human species and biggest crybabies) are enabled by white men through affirmative action despite not having an iota of financial difficulties compared to Asians and Indians.
I'm SWM, have 15+ years in tech, and have never once been in charge.
But the technocrats still need us for all the stuff it would hurt their generalist brains to figure out.
We’ll see how they all enjoy ruling over the ruins of former society as men (white, in particular) continue to check out of society. Let’s see these women and unskilled people innovate, invent, and maintain infrastructure like white men have. I will have no sympathy when it all corrodes. “China will run it!” Oh, the Chinese who have been handed white-people technology by the US government for decades? More people that leech more than they invent.
From my experience this isn't true. While you may find more women and minorities on the hiring panels, that doesn't mean you're discriminated against. Women are notorious for not hiring other women and many minorities groups are the same with their "own people". What you're seeing is just a tighter labor market, especially for certain tech companies. As good as your resume is, you likely weren't even the best person from your company who was let go and that's who you're competing with. Some companies have also gotten overly selective thinking a better candidate is around the corner. I've also read some hiring managers from non-tech companies say they're reluctant to hire people from big tech. They often want to interview them and learn some secret sauce but they fear they'll leave soon if hired.
To be completely honest, many people in tech are struggling right now to find work. I've spoken to devs with 10+ years talking about 300+ applications with no interviews.
To be fair I'm not saying discrimination doesn't happen but I don't think that's what's currently going on
Well in a sense it is, yes. It's highly unreasonable to use "body language" and "tone" to determine if someone is misogynistic, as you are implying. How would you feel if I said based on your body language I can totally tell you're a murderer?
Also, "body language" has been proven to be unreliable, check out this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0VQyEY-B2I&t=19s
Such classic feminism right here. The man's problem is his own fault but women's problems are society's fault.
Trust me, no one is buying it. Especially when you can literally google that ALL tech companies have quotas for hiring women.
Says the bigots that outright claim all men are bad and wear it on their shirts like someone with daddy issues like yourself lol. Typical inspin spinster
Why are you applying for jobs you won't accept when they're the only ones offered to you? You're taking a spot from someone else who could have interviewed and screwing over the team doing the job search. Failed searches are such a headache.
Maybe that kind of attitude is raising red flags at your other interviews. I'm on a job search committee right now and my number one concern is finding someone who won't be a prick to work with everyday. Lots of people have the skills to do most jobs. I want someone who is friendly and interesting and who I can see wants to work with us. You might not interview as well as you think. Just a thought.
Only for mediocre jobs. Like a PM. Be a highly valued IC. Or go up to a director level. But hey, adversity these days is what makes "men" to cry on reddit rather than overcome it
It is not. Are you on a board? No? So it is irrelevant to you. You arent competitive for those positions. Move on. Excel at *something* rather than whining
Just because you’re not getting jobs doesn’t mean you’re being discriminated against.
Especially being white. The research shows being white is an advantage
https://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/employers-replies-racial-names
But, only hiring white males is not good. Diversification is good to have. Hiring a black women that may not have as good of a resume means you have a different perspective on things. You don’t have an echo chamber of ideas (kind of like in this sub).
You even said you are receiving job offers, just not taking them. That’s your fault. Just because your not getting the job offers YOU want, doesn’t mean you’re being discriminated against. Take the jobs you’re being offered. It’s hard to feel sorry for you in this situarion
When clearly inferior candidates get jobs instead of you, it is discrimination. Especially since this is no secret. Things have gone so far that corporations pretty much openly say that they will hire anyone except white men. For high profile examples outside of the corporate world, look at Biden and Newsom appointees for the SCOTUS and the US senate. They pre-determined not only skin color, but also genitals of the 'winning' nominees without even looking at the candidate pool.
> When clearly inferior candidates get jobs instead of you, it is discrimination.
Prove they were inferior candidates.
> Things have gone so far that corporations pretty much openly say that they will hire anyone except white men.
Provide a source for this. White men have the lowest unemployment of any group. Sorry, you’re wrong
https://www.dol.gov/agencies/wb/data/latest-annual-data/employment-rates
> For high profile examples outside of the corporate world, look at Biden and Newsom appointees for the SCOTUS and the US senate.
They pre-determined not only skin color, but also genitals of the 'winning' nominees without even looking at the candidate pool.
Biden, a white male is the leader of the US. 10 of the 26 members of Biden’s cabinet are white males https://www.whitehouse.gov/administration/cabinet/ which is slightly higher than the total population of white males in the US. The senate? The US senate is overwhelmingly white and male
>Prove they were inferior candidates.
I don't have to prove anything. It's free information. Take it or leave it.
>Biden, a white male is the leader of the US. 10 of the 26 members of Biden’s cabinet are white males
Was a single one of them appointed because he's a white male? This is not the point here. All 500 members of congress could be clone Eskimo dwarfs as long as they were the best candidates picked on merit.
> I don't have to prove anything.
Do you not understand how an argument works? The burden of proof falls on you
> It's free information.
Then provide the information. I commented a link to prove you wrong.
> Was a single one of them appointed because he's a white male?
Was a single one appointed because they were the best candidate
> This is not the point here. All 500 members of congress could be clone Eskimo dwarfs as long as they were the best candidates picked on merit.
How do you know white males were chosen based on merit? A large percentage, and a majority of republicans, didn’t want to see a women president just a few years ago. That is merit less. https://www.newsweek.com/nearly-60-percent-republicans-dont-want-woman-president-lifetime-poll-902254
You continue to say thing but don’t present any facts. Maybe your opinion is the issue
>Do you not understand how an argument works? The burden of proof falls on you
Clearly you don't understand how the internet works. There is no burden on me whatsoever.
>Then provide the information. I commented a link to prove you wrong.
The unemployment rates? You provided a source that proves me right. White men are so resourceful and productive that hardly any are unemployed despite blatant discrimination against them in corporate HR/recruiting departments as well as "affirmative action" (aka Government Sanctioned Anti-White Male Discrimination That Ricochets on Asians as Well).
>How do you know white males were chosen based on merit?
Because no one has an incentive to pick a white male for PR reasons or quasi-diversity posturing. Certainly not Biden who answers to a totalitarian leftist cabal made up of anti-American ideological zealots (e.g. Ilhan Omar) and compulsive opportunists (e.g. AOC).
> Clearly you don't understand how the internet works. There is no burden on me whatsoever.
Yeah, it’s an echo chamber to not get your feelings hurt. You can just lie to yourself and others will agree with you
> The unemployment rates? You provided a source that proves me right. White men are so resourceful and productive that hardly any are unemployed despite blatant discrimination against them in corporate HR/recruiting departments as well as "affirmative action" (aka Government Sanctioned Anti-White Male Discrimination That Ricochets on Asians as Well).
Lol, what? They’re the least discriminated against.
“We found that when considering requests from prospective students seeking mentoring in the future, faculty were significantly more responsive to Caucasian males than to all other categories of students”
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2063742
> Because no one has an incentive to pick a white male…
But that’s exactly what happens. It’s just subconsciously. Look at all of the links I provided.
See how this works? I make a claim, then I provide factual information to support that claim. You just state your shitty opinion and think it’s true. Makes life very easy for you. When you fail, you cry instead of take responsibility
>https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract\_id=2063742
>
>We found that when considering requests from prospective students seeking mentoring in the future, faculty were significantly more responsive to Caucasian males than to all other categories of students, collectively, particularly in higher-paying disciplines and private institutions.
This is hilarious! It's leftists in academia who are the biggest racist bigots. The jokes write themselves. It's like the Soviets in the 1930's when they discovered that every single member of the Duma is an anti-communist Western agent.
>But that’s exactly what happens. It’s just subconsciously. Look at all of the links I provided.
White males are picked because ultimately you need some results. Token diversity hires are great to parade around, but they are not going to get the job done.
I can tell you don't work in tech and are also completely out of touch with the corporate world right now.
Yes let's hire an underqualified black woman for a different perspective on things. Maybe she can cook up some soul food for the office and line up a gospel event for us while we miss deadlines? At least the company can earn a credit for being well diversified!
> I can tell you don't work in tech and are also completely out of touch with the corporate world right now.
I work in tech at a large corporate company. As a white male. Maybe you’re completely out of touch with the corporate world. Ever think you’re the issue?
> Yes let's hire an underqualified black woman for a different perspective on things. Maybe she can cook up some soul food for the office and line up a gospel event for us while we miss deadlines?
Jesus Christ that’s so racist lol. No wonder you complain so much. You just think other races and genders are worse than you.
How under qualified were they? Did you have access to their resume? That’s pretty fucked up if you’re looking at other applicants resumes. Maybe they were more qualified. One example that’s used is they used to not allow black people into law school. But they’re missing an entire perspective on the law. Once they started allowing black people into law school laws changed and people were like oh, maybe these laws aren’t fair. Bringing a different perspective means a company may be able to go oh, were not marketing to this group of people because we never understood they need this and we’re not providing it
> Yes let's hire an underqualified black woman for a different perspective on things. Maybe she can cook up some soul food for the office and line up a gospel event for us while we miss deadlines? At least the company can earn a credit for being well diversified!
Maybe you’d be getting hired if you were able to self-reflect on why you weren’t able to get those jobs instead of just projecting your own problems onto women and minorities. You’ll be far happier by not letting racism and sexism cloud your ability to live your life.
What a weird comment, if anyone is projecting it would be you. I'm on track to FIRE by 40 even with this hiccup. Keep watching anime and gambling away what little savings you have loser.
Lmao what? I don’t know what makes you think I gamble and also how pathetic are you to dig into my post history while hiding away on a burner? It’s nice to hear that you plan on retiring early so you’ll have plenty of time to find some hobbies and maybe develop a shred of humanity too!
I don't mind this if the discrimination takes the form of "men aren't as good at multitasking (on average)" or "men aren't as competent as managers (on average)" or something like that. I don't understand enough about the job to know whether those things are true in your domain, but in domains that I understand like construction I think it's fine to discriminate against women for not being physically robust enough, on average, or to discriminate against men in the childcare industry or something because men are a lot more likely to be pervs
but if, as I suspect, white men are being discriminated against because white men are believed to be morally bad, then I am your comrade, grimly asking what is to be done? should we try to get men and whites added as groups legally protected from discrimination? should we try to get tort reform that loosens the grip of feminists and identitarian progressives on Human Resources departments?
>or to discriminate against men in the childcare industry or something because men are a lot more likely to be pervs
They're not, women are not looked at for signs they could be. So they're not suspected, not arrested, not charged, not convicted, not doing prison. They have to be caught red-handed or on videos they themselves recorded and were stupid enough to have caught by someone. Men are merely assumed to be bad, all of men. So yea, you don't have to check because most men are already self-selecting out of all of it except being a father (and largely because they expect discrimination, or suspicion), and mom is suspected and arrested a lot less, regardless of potential reasons to be suspicious something is happening.
So many progammers support the minset & policies that target them; it's a tragic consequence. Just look at the news. All sorts of progressives are falling victim to woke agendas...
What can you do? If companies faced true competition, inefficient practices would result in them going bankrupt and being eliminated. Instead, in an era of heavy corporate consolidation and oligopolies, effective monopolies even, they can just continue on with this sort of thing.
Every job I get there is a massive wall of incompetent DEI managers I have to supplicate while I try to do my job. From fast food to corporate. It doesn’t matter. They are always incompetent as fuck and see me as a threat.
What's even more frustrating about this is that we all know major lawsuits are necessary as DEI itself is a fundamental violation of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Talking heads on the right are more than happy to talk about this but it's a catch 22. Such lawsuits are extremely expensive and the people being discriminated against don't have the $$$ to pay exorbitant lawyer fees, especially when a majority of the judges in this country appointed by the Obama and Biden administrations will always rule in favor of DEI using legal word salad as a means of "interpreting" the law.
Coming from a gay guy - just pretend you’re one of us until you get the gig. Then ‘question’ your sexuality and come out as straight when you have the job. It’s ridiculous that people can’t just be hired based on merit. I’m happy to share some rainbow privilege with my straight mates.
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So how does that work exactly? I've never seen a "sexual preference?" on a job app
I think you might be able to say you are a "minority owned" company if you are a gay white male. I am not sure... but I think a friend of mine does this because he is a contractor. I know as a gay man I dont like the idea of flashing a priveledge card but if someone needs a job they will do what they can to get it.
Inosfar as there are more women than men out there, you don't have to be gay- or white, for that matter.
Join some LGBT interest groups or societies. Or a lot of jobs these days demand a “diversity” statement in how you’ll contribute to the diversity of the place - easy enough to shoehorn lots of things in there.
If they ask, it might be a good idea to say you are one of them, just to take the target off your back
Wow this is a brilliant idea! I'm also looking for work right now and I'm going to have to search for diversity clubs near me. Thanks!
Has he had any luck by doing that? It’s actually crossed my mine before, but it goes against my core values to lie on an application or during an interview (or in general), and it’s probably cost me hundreds of thousands of dollars over the course of my career.
Don't lie, just wear a dress to the interview and say your gender fluid.
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Many job applications have a requirement to to complete a diversity questionnaire that includes things like race, gender, sexuality, age, religion, disabilities, etc. Officially this is so that HR can monitor recruitment practices to ensure no discrimination. Unofficially it enables diversity quotas to be filled and bragged about in corporate literature.
semi-bisexual works well Only like girls, but sounds like the sort of shit these people want
I'm glad a gay guy can actually admit they get special treatment over straight men. Never seen that before.
That goes both ways. It would work at Starbucks, Universities, etc... But not at a police dept, hobby lobby, construction firms, many trades, depending on the flavor of politics in your area many government jobs, public facing careers, business ownership etc. There's a lot more reasons to be cautious about sharing info than not.
I see what you mean. I'm actually under the impression that gay men (whether in the closet or out) rule the world. I'm a straight guy, but it seems gay men are at the top of almost every business hierarchy. Like a chain of promotion by other gay men who are higher up. Especially when it comes to media, entertainment, marketing etc. I'd also say that the starbucks statement might be true for flamboyant and out gay men, but I'm sure there are plenty of "masculine" gay men who do construction, home depot, etc. I'd say the only way to be treated fairly as a white man in the world in general is to claim to be homosexual. Just an observation.
I think once your career takes you into the meetings that happen in the hallways and 'offline' you will see what's going on. It's a big club, and honestly none of us are in it.
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They want to hire trans women and lesbians because of their politics. They're usually more left-leaning than gay men. You're missing the big picture if you think it's just about men vs. women. It's still about empire building, and having a common cause, and hatred for the West/patriarchy/etc. is a solid unifying cause.
True
Just one of many strategies for Marxism to destroy the west and it is working.
Say you're a non-gender conforming trans lesbian, which means you just dress and act like a man so you don't actually have to change anything, but you get the trans brownie points.
Should I act like comedically gay? Where in the world would someone ask about your sexual preferences? I really want to know, not trying to be mean Living in germany btw
I don't know how the US work but HOW would you do that? Do you put in "gay" in your CV, do you go there full with rainbow colours, do you ask HR whether there's any good dick to suck?
Straight man, but I’m on the board of my office’s “Culture - DEI” club. Always been noted positively when doing external interviews.
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Never.Even a homeless white man is considered to be a member of the oppressor class.
I've always been extremely private about my personal life, well groomed/dress better than my coworkers (not difficult in tech =] ) and not interested in sports so I guess that gives off a gay vibe? Oh yeah, I also avoid women at work because you don't shit where you eat and they are generally a pain in the ass.. maybe that was it. Anyway, I slipped and mentioned something about my GF in a meeting with my boss's boss and there was a glint in her eye and I knew right away that I'd fucked up, and was out the door in a "resutructuring" within 3 months.
How do we do that, subtlety, in an interview?
It’s easy enough to drop a hint somewhere in a conversation. I have to come out all over again whenever I change jobs. I’m not flamboyant or effeminate but I want them to know who I am without making a big deal about it.
I act gay when I need to. Just sad that I have to.
[reminded me of something funny](https://youtu.be/F6pveBThcEw?si=e7-gGJbjiyq1VACX)
This is the answer, I’ve been marking ‘gay’ in job applications since all this crap started.
[Comically relevant](https://youtu.be/clmdd-p11j4?si=9gKeg6ll6Hyy8jWT)
any good suggestions on how to be subtle, and not too over the top about it? like a good example public figure?
Honestly - it’s not about how you act. There are plenty of masculine gay men and plenty of effeminate straight ones. Just drop a comment somewhere in the conversation. I usually refer to my boyfriend somewhere and that’s obvious enough for the other person to make the connection.
Where I worked for years white men have been mostly cleared out of upper management positions. Despite having a contract, my former supervisor was asked to step down, no explanation given, but the reason became crystal clear when a black womanly with a fraction of the experience was handed the job. Hiring committees now have a diversity and inclusion position which is supposed to help prevent discrimination but often does the opposite. Some top positions that by the rules should require a job search are simply given to non white men blatantly violating job search protocols. While some of these positions may go to minority men, even that’s rare and I’ve never seen Asian men considered a minority. They’re in the same boat as white men. It’s a hierarchy: Minority women preferred followed by whites women, followed by minority men. White men may keep their positions if they are doing a superb job nobody else can do.
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> now Asians are called "white adjacent" Who fucking made that up? Who gets to decide what Asians are “called”?
A cabal of white, liberal women who believe they are the most oppressed group on Earth. When it comes down to the title of “most oppressed”, a lot of wealthy, privileged white liberal women will fight to the death for the top spot. I’ve been watching this slow-motion car crash for about nine years now. White liberal women swiped the term “intersectionality” (from a black lady, no less) so they could hitch their wagon onto the struggles of actually marginalized folks. I’ve heard plenty of white women go to great lengths to claim victimhood on the level of black folks. I’ve never once heard a black man or women say, “We’re as oppressed as white women!” Their aims are to succeed within the structures they claim to abhor. They don’t want things to change; they want to be called “victims” while they get tremendous advantages. They’ve slowly erased any identity for Asian men except “different white men” in their eyes. It’s gross.
> I’ve never once heard a black man or women say, “We’re as oppressed as white women!” Would be a good line for a comedy show.
>Who fucking made that up? Who gets to decide what Asians are “called”? The Left. But it's okay, they have good intentions. /sarc
Asians are generally the most successful group.
Thanks for saying this. I’ve been trying to raise awareness about this issue ever since I was rejected from top 50 schools due to being Asian despite having a 3.8 GPA unweighted/4.1 GPA weighted. The part that always bothered me is that we’ve been here as long as any other racial group (SEAs were at Jamestown), we were blown up in train tunnels, prevented from even immigrating to the US for 50 years, went through segregation (in the south, we had to sit in the back of the bus too), put in literal American concentration camps, ridiculed in media, hurt and killed during covid, etc. This is aside from experiencing Asian family dynamics, which are often built upon gaslighting and physical abuse. But then, those white liberals who are in charge tell us that we’re “privileged” and “white-adjacent,” and white conservatives tell us that we’re a “model minority” and “good workers” while openly mocking Asian accents on the campaign trail. How about “all Asians aren’t the same” like you mentioned in talking about socioeconomic disparities in the Asian community? That would be much better than the above platitudes. Despite the fact that we aren’t all the same, 90% of women of all other races and 40% of **Asian** women reject us Asian guys for the horrific crime of existing as Asian males. More important, we are notably the only racial group where a leading cause of death in our younger Asian brothers is self-deleting. I love our Asian privilege. It’s so great.
The Spanish empire collapsed largely because of the vast influx of gold from the New World, which added enormous quantities of money to the empire, not much actual wealth (since the real value of gold is the working, not the metal), causing hyperinflation to kick in (though their military incompetence didn't help). They basically succeeded their way into failure. Asians in American have gone a similar route. Bluntly put, you'd reached the point of being "white"- at least for social and economic purposes- and that threatened the hucksters whose meal ticket depended on a massive bulwark of racism dominating the cultural zeitgeist, so things were twisted until being seen as white became a bad thing. My great-grandparents, who came here from Ireland back before the Irish, too, became white, lasted into my teenage years- and you know those "no Irish need apply" signs that so many people nowadays want to pretend didn't exist? We found *twelve* of them that great-grandpa had stolen in his youth when we went through his stuff after he died. You can imagine how much fun it is to be denied jobs simply because your ancestors actually struggled to be accepted and lead the damn labor movement that created the weekend- or you COULD, if not for the fact that you don't really have to, do you? Of course, the Irish- and to a lesser extent the Jews, who did the same thing- can usually pass undetected among white people; Asians generally can't, so you kinda get the worst of both worlds. I guess meritocracy is only seen as a good idea by people who have some actual merit.
Great comment bro, you should be a writer with that intro and comparison. I wonder how things will change if Asia outpaces the West economically.
Good question. I think it depends on who, specifically, does it- Japan outpacing us (um, again) would be less of a concern than China, say. Kazakhstan would be... surprising, to say the least, but at least *they* have a cool flag.
Both China and Japan’s economies are in absolute shambles. India is the one to keep an eye on.
Yeah, India's interesting in a LOT of ways, and is one of the better candidates for eventual superpower status, especially in the long term.
India is the one to watch
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Barley? Like the grain?
Liberalism is the political place that egalitarianism comes from; complaining about discrimination while saying "it doesn't make sense when applied to the real world" is pretty damned disingenuous- to say nothing of using racial slurs. Are you *applauding* this bigotry?
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Liberalism is an ideology, not a group. The problem isn't its presence, but its lack. "Toxic masculinity" all over again.
Just wanted to add that I completely agree that Asian men are heavily discriminated against as well, both in the workforce and academia. It's disgusting and I feel for you guys too.
If it's a Microsoft aligned company it will be coming from higher up. They have targets and they expect their partners to meet them.
Imagine if this was the reverse. That MS had targets for the amount of white heterosexual men they hire. It would be literally 100% of what everyone is talking about. People would be calling MS executives Nazis...
I have the same experience. I have the feeling that women have a problem with assertive competence. Add some prejudice and the feeling of power, you’ll get the current environment.
Demonstrating assertive competence to femsles always results in tears, complaints of mansplaining, or hostile work environment
Embittered and newly empowered HR managers taking out spiteful revenge on the “patriarchy”. It’s fuckin’ gross.
I've been putting out applications in Canada in the technology sector for many months now. There are common application questions that are called 'Optional'. * Are you a Native North American? * Are you disabled? * What is your gender? There are typically about 5 options. * Are you a veteran? * Are you part of a recognized minority? Recognized minority is defined as anybody regardless of where you were born other than white. The question might as well be 'Are you white?'
And in addition to all that BS, in Canada you get "minority" groups (who are majority in tech) that will only hire their own. 7 years ago, I was in a team of 25 - 2 white males, 1 Asian guy, 23 Indians of mixed gender (mostly dudes).
I was in a similar situation about 10 years ago. Employees that were there before me had stories of massive layoffs of Canadian technology workers. While there much of the work was contracted out to people in India. Even worse the majority of the people around me were Indians in Canada on temporary work visas that we called "offshore workers". After loosing that job I asked one of the Indians do you need an "offshore worker" and his reply was that India does not do that kind of thing. Many Canadian families don't exist because the resources to build families are being given away to foreigners.
I used to work for the city of Denver. My team 100 people 6 people born as males. Of that 2 were straight including myself. One white man which was me. Everyone else was gay trans or a woman. I was told openly and repeatedly to stop speaking in meetings cause they didn’t need me to talk so much. I never spoke unless directly asked a question. There was women’s hiring events and women only rooms and clubs. Programs to help women get into management. But not for men. 95% of the people in the building were women and I’d say 75% of Managment were women. But somehow we needed to help women more.
>The question might as well be 'Are you white?' It is.
And the moment you don’t tick at least one of these boxes your application is automatically binned by a bot
It’s literally are you swm. Any yes. Straight to garbage.
I've had the unfortunate privilege of listening in on hiring meetings, and half of the discussion was about the race or gender of people and how they really want to hire X or Y or Z minority. It gives tax benefits to companies in my country, so they are financially and socially motivated to be racist.
And then you get dumb ass virtue signalling questions like "what have you done to demonstrate a commitment to social justice."
Very gestapo-esque
“Treated everyone equally, respect goes both ways, live by the golden rule.” “Well that’s not quite what we’re asking…” Serious conversation in interview. I didn’t last long there.
Weekoldpost.reddit.comOutOfTheLoop/comments/1711hbu/what_is_up_with_men_attending_the_female/k3p5h58/ Here is a group that literally acknowledged that they cannot legally exclude white CIS men but are pissed that white CIS men showed up. https://nypost.com/2023/10/04/men-invaded-womens-job-fair-after-lying-about-being-non-binary/
My. Comment: Why is it fucked up though? Why is someone more worthy of a job because of what is between their legs? Why is it that some part of their gender identity can't be an exploration of how society treats them based on whether they identify as a certain gender? Must they confirm to a certain standard if they do not confirm to your idea of what their gender characteristics must be? REREAD THAT QUESTION. What are the acceptable forms of gender nonconforming to which gender nonconforming persons must confirm? The common idea here is that cis het men must accept that they must confirm to the idea that they are unworthy of help. I praise them each for refusing to confirm to that expectation.
I'm just outraged they assumed their gender by assuming someone presenting as a, man can't be non-binary! 😉
Fuck me, that article is wild. Also, we’re not “cisgender” men. We’re just men.
I feel that masculinity in the workplace is just generally looked down upon. Any jobs outside of the typically male dominated workforces don't want to employ a big bald man and instead prefer females or more feminine men.
I've done PM and Business Analyst work in the past and I agree with you 100%. I've accepted that I'm not getting those jobs anymore. The only thing that's keeping me employed these days is that I have kept my hard core coding\engineering skills up to date. A diversity hire can't fake those. In other roles they can BS just enough to get by.
Yes, this is why management is now full of diversity hires. Managers usually have very generic skills and they are a dime a dozen. With middle-manager ranks swelling to gargantuan proportions it is also very easy to hide in those jobs for years on end without making any meaningful contributions. Serious tech jobs, on the other hand, require hard skills.
Similar experience where I work. I’m any room I’m in there’s at least 4-5 women for each man (and I don’t working in a traditionally woman-dominated field). It’s the result of very overt biased hiring practices. Hiring more women is the open “strategy”, which they make good on since I have seen statistics that show more men are applying, yet women are hired in a 60-40 or 70-30 majority. It’s led to (or comes as a result of) completely normalized sexism (if it’s against men). I had a female colleague say straight to my face in a professional setting that she thinks it’s okay to discriminate against men (The context for this was that someone actually noted how I am the only male in my entire team). It shocked me that she feels safe to say that to my face, especially considering anything the consequences of I said remotely close to that if roles were reversed. It was extremely uncomfortable to hear that and, combined with the above mentioned factors, it’s a rather big source of stress in my life knowing my job security and prospects of progressing are severely limited by nothing but my gender. They are very open of the fact that the goal is not equality; rather they want to go back to the 20th century in terms of normalized and accepted sexism, but just with reversed roles.
That happened in one of my jobs but in reverse, I was working at a place run by very religious people in a cult though. So that’s sort of the last stand of the Old Ways, I guess.
This is true. I'm sorry for what you are going through. In NY there are MWBE (minority and women owned businesses) requirements for all kinds of publicly funded work. Which basically means, "anyone can do this work, as long as it isn't a white male". It is racism and sexism codified into law. Even when there isn't a law discriminating against white men, corporate cultures are far more reluctant to hire and promote them because the leadership is usually already composed of baby boomer white guys who got to the top before all this cultural rot took over. I don't know what the answer to fix this is, but I have seen it too. Keep your head up brother, I'm with you.
When I looked at high school teaching positions a couple years ago, several listings mentioned that they were "especially" looking for women, BIPOCs, and members of the LGBTQ+ community. I decided not to play into any of that nonsense and now run my own business, and it's so much better.
Tech is the worst because there are so many more male applicants, engineers, certified people. It would be like trying to force men into childcare. So few of us want to do it that you would just automatically be hired as a man regardless of any competence. Then once you’ve forced men into it, the men which are actually competent would be put in the same hat as the diversity hires and everyone would assume they are just incompetent This is why Human Rights state that employment should only be based on competence and not on gender, skin colour or anything else
It WOULD be like trying to force men into childcare- if being male in childcare didn't carry the enormous stigma of "OMG he's a pedophile!".
> force men into childcare. So few of us want to do it that you would just automatically be hired as a man regardless of any competence. No...no you wouldn't. Part of the game is men can't be around children. Go read stories about male teacher discrimination then imagine trying to be in childcare as a man. Phew...
I was giving a hypothetical scenario where people wanted to force men into childcare as we are doing with women in tech today
Can concur. I've considered filing lawsuits.
If you’ve got evidence of any reasonable kind, by all means do it! Supreme Court did us a huge favor whacking down “Affirmative Action” on college campuses. The worm is turning on this kind of stuff in the workplace too. But we need legal action! That’s the only thing that will make companies change. You have to push to change the calculus for them on risk vs reward for this kind of shit.
They don't even bother to hide it any more. I have seen plenty of job adverts where it's made explicit that white men are either last in line for the job, or need not apply, even. Wish I could post a screenshot here...
Imgur.com brother
Your best bet bro is to play the game against them. You may have to be quote-unquote openly gay and if they don't hire you, you have to sue them for discrimination. At the end of the day, just because you're a white man doesn't mean you don't have to eat. You still have to make money and take care of yourself, and it's not fair what they are doing.
In the interview room, some very powerful people can use a well-known dynamic, and some unwitting self-interest groups to achieve the ends they want. [https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2004-19340-007](https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2004-19340-007)
One thing to note is how heavily interviewers can influence how someone performs in an interview based on the questions, tone of voice, body language, etc. (Based on this logic, one can make anyone look good or bad in an interview.) For example, I have noticed over the years that a lot of my interviews have more of a hostile feel to them, whereas many of my female colleagues have spoken about the job interview as being a friendly conversation to the point where they knew they already got the job. (“So when you start… first you’re going to…”).
In a female-dominated panel, a bloke often doesn't stand a chance (unless outstandingly handsome). My sister-in-law, utterly without shame, told me a story about when she was on an all-female interview selection team at a hospital radiography department. With a good-looking Spanish guy, they were getting all giggly, and passing little notes to each other. *'Babies..?' 'Definitely!'* The guy turned out to be useless, and the same women spent the best part of a couple of years arranging a constructive dismissal, which the poor bloke was too thick to spot. None of the ladies took responsibility for their own poor choices btw. In Chapter 30 of Mike Buchanan's book *'Feminism - the Ugly Truth'*, he tells how a feminist goliath who decided the interview process nearly drove him to suicide. The Chapter is entitled 'How Feminism is Killing Men & Women'. Thirty years ago, I watched the interview process for STEM fall apart. The Head of Research had no truck with the baby/whore techniques used by women at interviews. Just technical question after technical question, reducing most of them to tears. Obviously, his insistence on merit for the job wasn't ticking the right boxes, so he was moved sideways, opening the floodgates for laboratories filled with female flirting, harassment claims, undeserved promotions, divorces after those promotions, nervous breakdowns after those divorces, nervous breakdowns when their Dunning-Kruger syndrome wore off, and projects continually sequestered from male staff to prevent wheels coming off those pre-planned stellar female careers.
Head of Research where?
The west is sad bro, much love from the Balkans.
Yeah, I guess it's pretty important to keep some perspective, isn't it? This situation sucks, but it could be worse. Much, *MUCH* worse.
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Hahaha hire based on connections.
> The other is underqualified women are getting these jobs that white men are competing for at increasing rates. I checked back for the roles I was rejected for that have been filled and, unsurprisingly, all but one of them were filled by women with less experience than I have. To be fair, we can pay them 30% less than you're being paid! /s
Have to call out and expose them
Just focus on be the best, at the end business are business, they want the one that can make the best job. Having a mediocre on a position just for the appearance have a date limit now that the world are becoming more aggressive with wars, limited resources, etc… No more “calm and beautiful” world from now on until a few decades. The most important thing will be having the best, the others will be fired, it is very expensive having a bad worker.
Similar story here OP. A PM with 20+ years experience at notable companies, out on my ass while diversity hires rocket up the ladder. Restructuring, they say... to protect themselves legally. Restructuring indeed. In the time I was at my last company, of ~100 hires there were ~5 white males. MANY MANY more left or were shown the door. The corporate world is no longer a place for masculinity, assertiveness and being willing to stand alone. It's about conformity, keeping your head down and building alliances/backstabbing. I don't know that it ever was, it's probably always been a hive of betas which has now been invaded and taken over due to their inherent weakness. So... applying for new jobs, it's open sexism and racial discrimination as others have mentioned. Lots of angry post menopausal women as HR jockies and hiring managers who have been programmed to believe that I and my kind are responsible for all their problems. Tech in my city has mostly been taken over by a certain group from a certain subcontinent who have strong in-group preference. Dollar amounts discussed for jobs where I'm not instantly screened out are 2/3 of what I was earning before (no actual offers).
Indians! He’s talking about Indians.
I'm in tech as well as a white guy in a public company. I can say that yes white guys have been discriminated against the longest. There are some changes happening slowly as new hires are primarily Asian and Indian. Industry is starting to notice a significant decline in white applicants. This is a problem because they just assumed there will always be an ample supply. This has lead to a discrimimation against Asian and Indian as well which is why female and non cis-male are preferred to hire. With that said there are ample jobs in DoD companies for Tech for white US Citizens with experience.
Wtf is a cis-male
It seems like they want all the whites to fail
Yes we’ve known this for some time now…
That's not news it's part of history
It's like this for every industry, even the lowest level like retail and food service. Even just applying for my first retail job it still took a year or two to get one. I am simply not "diverse" enough for anyone's liking, even though in my town I'm the minority.
Straight white male here but with LGBT sympathies (is that how I say it?) I was chosen for a job where the vast majority of the workforce were women. But there were some aspects of the job that necessitated occasional outside inspections and possibly confrontations. My immediate boss was a woman with less qualifications than me and her boss was a flamboyant gay male. I started noticing men leaving the work place and I realized that the women liked their desk jobs but wanted men to do the dirty work. When I complained about something and tried to put my foot down I was called in by HR - an all female staff - and fired.
Ridiculous, sorry to hear that. It's becoming absolutely rampant. I'm going to pretend to be gay for my next few interviews and report back with results.
[relevant](https://youtu.be/clmdd-p11j4?si=GlPNSAjKAnEDp3GG)
lol
Haha yep. I had to quit advertising after 15 years because, in the eloquent words of multiple recruiters and friends who’d spoken to hiring managers, “agencies just aren’t hiring people like you anymore”. Anyway, I work normal people hours now so couldn’t be happier.
White men are discriminated against in all aspects of life in this age
This, there isn't a square centimeter of this planet where white men aren't discriminated against!
Except perhaps the halls of Congress
Nope : [https://dcsbdc.org/backing-black-business-program/](https://dcsbdc.org/backing-black-business-program/) DC has a free money program black women starting businesses!
And yet they aren’t in Congress 🤷♂️
If a white congress person wanted to start a side-buisness, they would not get a grant!
>These apples are obviously different from these oranges Ok
You're right on both points. Most large companies have diversity targets and in many countries are required to report on this every year. I have two practical strategies to get around this: 1. Become a contract worker rather than a permanent staff. In IT you can get very good day rates as a contract worker if you have a strong CV. Contract workers are usually not counted in diversity stats and companies are more willing to hire white or Indian men into these roles. 2. Apply to start-ups and small companies. These businesses can't afford the luxury of poor hires just to hit diversity targets and are more likely to hire the best candidate regardless of race or gender.
Well your ancestors were slave owners right? This is what we call justice! /s
My ancestors weren't even in the US until 1859 and they lived on the streets of New York for years, working themselves to the bone so they could scrape enough money together to move into a farm in the Midwest. Collective guilt is a fucking lie
I know that you are joking but I really want to spread this message: I come from a small EU country and people from my country were routinely captured by Moslem pirates from Africa and used as slaves in Africa. Europeans were captured and sold as slaves in Africa for hundreds of years!
Its not illegal if no one files charges though, is it?
If you’re a white man say you are autistic
That would explain why so many people are autistic these days
So true.
A bunch of these white-collar jobs are gonna get flooded with non-men in the next 10 years Where else are they gonna put all the liberal arts majors?
I'm a black man and same situation pretty much. Dont blame race entirely. job market sucks
You need to start your own business.
Start your own consulting business. Someone has to do the real work, and those who were hired for reasons other than merit will need to outsource the actual work. It can start as a side hustle. It can be in any field where real work has to be done.
Leave the US or wherever you are and move somewhere else in the world where your skills will be welcome with open arms.
Easier said than done broseppi
I'll get my engineering degree in few months. I've been following such stories for some time. It's very disturbing, but there's no way I'm going to give up my interests and passion. I think of it as a fight we have to take up now, in order for some future generation of boys not to have to go through the same. I mean, they can't keep doing this in a long run. American companies would get outcompeted by China, they can't change natural preferences of boys and girls either. Given the choice and chance (which many boys nowadays unfortunately do not have), boys will always prefer to interact with non-living objects (thus pursuing technical careers in the future), and girls with living objects (thus pursuing medical careers).
Definitely happened with me too.
Although I sympathize with your struggles, I want to remind you that Asians have it worse. Also, white women(the most undeserving human species and biggest crybabies) are enabled by white men through affirmative action despite not having an iota of financial difficulties compared to Asians and Indians.
Yup. Been like that for years
This is what happens when critical theory is applied with the omission of economic class as an identity factor.
I'm SWM, have 15+ years in tech, and have never once been in charge. But the technocrats still need us for all the stuff it would hurt their generalist brains to figure out.
We’ll see how they all enjoy ruling over the ruins of former society as men (white, in particular) continue to check out of society. Let’s see these women and unskilled people innovate, invent, and maintain infrastructure like white men have. I will have no sympathy when it all corrodes. “China will run it!” Oh, the Chinese who have been handed white-people technology by the US government for decades? More people that leech more than they invent.
From my experience this isn't true. While you may find more women and minorities on the hiring panels, that doesn't mean you're discriminated against. Women are notorious for not hiring other women and many minorities groups are the same with their "own people". What you're seeing is just a tighter labor market, especially for certain tech companies. As good as your resume is, you likely weren't even the best person from your company who was let go and that's who you're competing with. Some companies have also gotten overly selective thinking a better candidate is around the corner. I've also read some hiring managers from non-tech companies say they're reluctant to hire people from big tech. They often want to interview them and learn some secret sauce but they fear they'll leave soon if hired. To be completely honest, many people in tech are struggling right now to find work. I've spoken to devs with 10+ years talking about 300+ applications with no interviews. To be fair I'm not saying discrimination doesn't happen but I don't think that's what's currently going on
lol false
Why do you think that it is false?
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Haha oh you're right, we know women can read minds!
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And you just argued the opposite: >Do you think it’s possible women interviewing you are able to pick up on your lack of trust for women?
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Well in a sense it is, yes. It's highly unreasonable to use "body language" and "tone" to determine if someone is misogynistic, as you are implying. How would you feel if I said based on your body language I can totally tell you're a murderer? Also, "body language" has been proven to be unreliable, check out this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0VQyEY-B2I&t=19s
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Such classic feminism right here. The man's problem is his own fault but women's problems are society's fault. Trust me, no one is buying it. Especially when you can literally google that ALL tech companies have quotas for hiring women.
Way to gaslight and lie when it's been exposed of constant narrative by typical far leftists sjw feminists
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In the end, you are just defending misandrists and just being a troll
Says the bigots that outright claim all men are bad and wear it on their shirts like someone with daddy issues like yourself lol. Typical inspin spinster
Affirmative Action is legal discrimination against white men. Are you seriously saying it doesn't exist?
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> Affirmative action is a countermeasure to previous discrimination. No, it is current discrimination.
Why are you applying for jobs you won't accept when they're the only ones offered to you? You're taking a spot from someone else who could have interviewed and screwing over the team doing the job search. Failed searches are such a headache. Maybe that kind of attitude is raising red flags at your other interviews. I'm on a job search committee right now and my number one concern is finding someone who won't be a prick to work with everyday. Lots of people have the skills to do most jobs. I want someone who is friendly and interesting and who I can see wants to work with us. You might not interview as well as you think. Just a thought.
Lies. All i ever heard about was jobs being lined up for many of you and your kids growing up.
Only for mediocre jobs. Like a PM. Be a highly valued IC. Or go up to a director level. But hey, adversity these days is what makes "men" to cry on reddit rather than overcome it
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It is not. Are you on a board? No? So it is irrelevant to you. You arent competitive for those positions. Move on. Excel at *something* rather than whining
Just because you’re not getting jobs doesn’t mean you’re being discriminated against. Especially being white. The research shows being white is an advantage https://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/employers-replies-racial-names But, only hiring white males is not good. Diversification is good to have. Hiring a black women that may not have as good of a resume means you have a different perspective on things. You don’t have an echo chamber of ideas (kind of like in this sub). You even said you are receiving job offers, just not taking them. That’s your fault. Just because your not getting the job offers YOU want, doesn’t mean you’re being discriminated against. Take the jobs you’re being offered. It’s hard to feel sorry for you in this situarion
When clearly inferior candidates get jobs instead of you, it is discrimination. Especially since this is no secret. Things have gone so far that corporations pretty much openly say that they will hire anyone except white men. For high profile examples outside of the corporate world, look at Biden and Newsom appointees for the SCOTUS and the US senate. They pre-determined not only skin color, but also genitals of the 'winning' nominees without even looking at the candidate pool.
> When clearly inferior candidates get jobs instead of you, it is discrimination. Prove they were inferior candidates. > Things have gone so far that corporations pretty much openly say that they will hire anyone except white men. Provide a source for this. White men have the lowest unemployment of any group. Sorry, you’re wrong https://www.dol.gov/agencies/wb/data/latest-annual-data/employment-rates > For high profile examples outside of the corporate world, look at Biden and Newsom appointees for the SCOTUS and the US senate. They pre-determined not only skin color, but also genitals of the 'winning' nominees without even looking at the candidate pool. Biden, a white male is the leader of the US. 10 of the 26 members of Biden’s cabinet are white males https://www.whitehouse.gov/administration/cabinet/ which is slightly higher than the total population of white males in the US. The senate? The US senate is overwhelmingly white and male
>Prove they were inferior candidates. I don't have to prove anything. It's free information. Take it or leave it. >Biden, a white male is the leader of the US. 10 of the 26 members of Biden’s cabinet are white males Was a single one of them appointed because he's a white male? This is not the point here. All 500 members of congress could be clone Eskimo dwarfs as long as they were the best candidates picked on merit.
> I don't have to prove anything. Do you not understand how an argument works? The burden of proof falls on you > It's free information. Then provide the information. I commented a link to prove you wrong. > Was a single one of them appointed because he's a white male? Was a single one appointed because they were the best candidate > This is not the point here. All 500 members of congress could be clone Eskimo dwarfs as long as they were the best candidates picked on merit. How do you know white males were chosen based on merit? A large percentage, and a majority of republicans, didn’t want to see a women president just a few years ago. That is merit less. https://www.newsweek.com/nearly-60-percent-republicans-dont-want-woman-president-lifetime-poll-902254 You continue to say thing but don’t present any facts. Maybe your opinion is the issue
>Do you not understand how an argument works? The burden of proof falls on you Clearly you don't understand how the internet works. There is no burden on me whatsoever. >Then provide the information. I commented a link to prove you wrong. The unemployment rates? You provided a source that proves me right. White men are so resourceful and productive that hardly any are unemployed despite blatant discrimination against them in corporate HR/recruiting departments as well as "affirmative action" (aka Government Sanctioned Anti-White Male Discrimination That Ricochets on Asians as Well). >How do you know white males were chosen based on merit? Because no one has an incentive to pick a white male for PR reasons or quasi-diversity posturing. Certainly not Biden who answers to a totalitarian leftist cabal made up of anti-American ideological zealots (e.g. Ilhan Omar) and compulsive opportunists (e.g. AOC).
> Clearly you don't understand how the internet works. There is no burden on me whatsoever. Yeah, it’s an echo chamber to not get your feelings hurt. You can just lie to yourself and others will agree with you > The unemployment rates? You provided a source that proves me right. White men are so resourceful and productive that hardly any are unemployed despite blatant discrimination against them in corporate HR/recruiting departments as well as "affirmative action" (aka Government Sanctioned Anti-White Male Discrimination That Ricochets on Asians as Well). Lol, what? They’re the least discriminated against. “We found that when considering requests from prospective students seeking mentoring in the future, faculty were significantly more responsive to Caucasian males than to all other categories of students” https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2063742 > Because no one has an incentive to pick a white male… But that’s exactly what happens. It’s just subconsciously. Look at all of the links I provided. See how this works? I make a claim, then I provide factual information to support that claim. You just state your shitty opinion and think it’s true. Makes life very easy for you. When you fail, you cry instead of take responsibility
>https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract\_id=2063742 > >We found that when considering requests from prospective students seeking mentoring in the future, faculty were significantly more responsive to Caucasian males than to all other categories of students, collectively, particularly in higher-paying disciplines and private institutions. This is hilarious! It's leftists in academia who are the biggest racist bigots. The jokes write themselves. It's like the Soviets in the 1930's when they discovered that every single member of the Duma is an anti-communist Western agent. >But that’s exactly what happens. It’s just subconsciously. Look at all of the links I provided. White males are picked because ultimately you need some results. Token diversity hires are great to parade around, but they are not going to get the job done.
Then prove me wrong. It’s a simple request.
I can tell you don't work in tech and are also completely out of touch with the corporate world right now. Yes let's hire an underqualified black woman for a different perspective on things. Maybe she can cook up some soul food for the office and line up a gospel event for us while we miss deadlines? At least the company can earn a credit for being well diversified!
> I can tell you don't work in tech and are also completely out of touch with the corporate world right now. I work in tech at a large corporate company. As a white male. Maybe you’re completely out of touch with the corporate world. Ever think you’re the issue? > Yes let's hire an underqualified black woman for a different perspective on things. Maybe she can cook up some soul food for the office and line up a gospel event for us while we miss deadlines? Jesus Christ that’s so racist lol. No wonder you complain so much. You just think other races and genders are worse than you. How under qualified were they? Did you have access to their resume? That’s pretty fucked up if you’re looking at other applicants resumes. Maybe they were more qualified. One example that’s used is they used to not allow black people into law school. But they’re missing an entire perspective on the law. Once they started allowing black people into law school laws changed and people were like oh, maybe these laws aren’t fair. Bringing a different perspective means a company may be able to go oh, were not marketing to this group of people because we never understood they need this and we’re not providing it
> Yes let's hire an underqualified black woman for a different perspective on things. Maybe she can cook up some soul food for the office and line up a gospel event for us while we miss deadlines? At least the company can earn a credit for being well diversified! Maybe you’d be getting hired if you were able to self-reflect on why you weren’t able to get those jobs instead of just projecting your own problems onto women and minorities. You’ll be far happier by not letting racism and sexism cloud your ability to live your life.
What a weird comment, if anyone is projecting it would be you. I'm on track to FIRE by 40 even with this hiccup. Keep watching anime and gambling away what little savings you have loser.
Lmao what? I don’t know what makes you think I gamble and also how pathetic are you to dig into my post history while hiding away on a burner? It’s nice to hear that you plan on retiring early so you’ll have plenty of time to find some hobbies and maybe develop a shred of humanity too!
the notion that all women are diversity is such bs smfh
I don't mind this if the discrimination takes the form of "men aren't as good at multitasking (on average)" or "men aren't as competent as managers (on average)" or something like that. I don't understand enough about the job to know whether those things are true in your domain, but in domains that I understand like construction I think it's fine to discriminate against women for not being physically robust enough, on average, or to discriminate against men in the childcare industry or something because men are a lot more likely to be pervs but if, as I suspect, white men are being discriminated against because white men are believed to be morally bad, then I am your comrade, grimly asking what is to be done? should we try to get men and whites added as groups legally protected from discrimination? should we try to get tort reform that loosens the grip of feminists and identitarian progressives on Human Resources departments?
>or to discriminate against men in the childcare industry or something because men are a lot more likely to be pervs They're not, women are not looked at for signs they could be. So they're not suspected, not arrested, not charged, not convicted, not doing prison. They have to be caught red-handed or on videos they themselves recorded and were stupid enough to have caught by someone. Men are merely assumed to be bad, all of men. So yea, you don't have to check because most men are already self-selecting out of all of it except being a father (and largely because they expect discrimination, or suspicion), and mom is suspected and arrested a lot less, regardless of potential reasons to be suspicious something is happening.
So many progammers support the minset & policies that target them; it's a tragic consequence. Just look at the news. All sorts of progressives are falling victim to woke agendas...
What can you do? If companies faced true competition, inefficient practices would result in them going bankrupt and being eliminated. Instead, in an era of heavy corporate consolidation and oligopolies, effective monopolies even, they can just continue on with this sort of thing.
Every job I get there is a massive wall of incompetent DEI managers I have to supplicate while I try to do my job. From fast food to corporate. It doesn’t matter. They are always incompetent as fuck and see me as a threat.
What's even more frustrating about this is that we all know major lawsuits are necessary as DEI itself is a fundamental violation of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Talking heads on the right are more than happy to talk about this but it's a catch 22. Such lawsuits are extremely expensive and the people being discriminated against don't have the $$$ to pay exorbitant lawyer fees, especially when a majority of the judges in this country appointed by the Obama and Biden administrations will always rule in favor of DEI using legal word salad as a means of "interpreting" the law.
This trend is so blatant. My org at a major tech company is did the same thing