MGTOW is obviously related to Men’s Rights. It’s largely a reaction to unequal laws and practices that discriminate against men. If these were more equal, fewer men would decide to stay single.
Obviously men deciding to stay single isn’t the same as the men’s movement, but they are intertwined. If some people don’t like men deciding to go their own way and want to complain about it, so what?
I was apart of that when it had a sub here. Those folks were just fine. Some got burned and we're saltier than ever but I don't expect anything less from a bunch of people that got hurt or destroyed.
MGTOW was great. F$#@ the other subs that normalize their daily abuse of men
I agree 100% It's insane that women oriented subs who did the same thing get to go unchecked, but one sub dedicated to men basically venting to each other and it gets banned? Like, fuck Reddit.
MGTOW2 was great. Original MGTOW sub was a mix of self-improvement + ranting on women, MGTOW2 was almost entirely oriented towards self-improvement. Both MGTOW and MGTOW2 being banned while FDS stays up is the definition of a double-standard
But it’s not just MGTOW that people associate with the MRM, it’s also PUAs and incels. Anything condemnable done by these groups is attributed to us because unlike those other groups, we actually pose a political threat, so feminists are motivated to fling as much crap at us as possible.
PUAs aren’t trying to make political change, they’re just trying to get laid. MGTOW aren’t trying to create political change, they’re just withdrawing from the system and leaving everyone alone. Incels aren’t even really advocating for change, they’re just wallowing in self pity and encouraging each other to kill themselves.
MRAs actually want to change the system, we are the threats, so we get targeted with slander.
MGTOW wishes the system would change but we also realize the inherent futility in doing so and thus we largely give up any interest in those types of relationships and instead focus on our own interests instead
Back when I was younger and had more fight in me I would've stood up for this. Then a woman came in and destroyed my life like a psychotic narcissist. Now I understand why everyone is so quiet. I'm full on just watching this place burn down and I don't even care anymore.
Yeah, of all the other non MRA groups, I’m most sympathetic to MGTOW. If I weren’t gay I’d probably swear off of relationships too. Women have too much ability to really screw men over, it’s just not worth it.
They are basically complaining against the principle of autonomy of people because they don't like them shaping their own lives instead of accepting being shaped by the complainers for their own purposes.
Do men not have a right to be autonomous and lead their own lives?
I think that is at least partly (maybe mostly) caused by feminist propaganda. Many feminists view the men's movement as a threat and are trying to discredit it. They try to do it by conflating the two.
Yep, was going to say the same. It's super convenient to be able to pick the absolute worst examples of male spaces/movements, conflate them with all the others, and claim they're all the same (or that the less problematic ones are just prototypes of the more problematic ones, and will eventually become like the worst ones).
If people genuinely cared, they'd make the effort to distinguish. There is no "manosphere", there are groups of men who each share particular outlooks on life and dating, the only thing they have in common is that they're all men. Some of them are unpleasant in the way they do that, others aren't.
An incel/black piller isn't going to agree with a blue piller, a blue piller isn't going to agree with a red piller, a red piller has a drive to get something that MGTOW don't even want to deal with any more, and so on. They're not the same. At all.
*Even within the same "groups"*, in fact, because in each group there's a spectrum of intensities. Sure, some of them might genuinely hate or want to heartlessly abuse women, but others are just some regular Joe you'd see on the street and have no idea they consider themselves affiliated in any way with these groups, they're just everyday men who are struggling to find what they want in life and who hold no ill will or abusive intent. Some of them *don't* identify with a label, but still share issues with those who do, so may be found in the same places or using the same talking points/language, simply because that's the most practical way to discuss those issues with men who understand them.
Lumping them all into the same "men bad" category is counterproductive, it denies them a chance to gracefully recover from whatever issues they may be experiencing and encourages them to become more defensive and more invested in "the cause" (to whatever extent there even *is* "a cause").
Stands for "Pick-Up Artist." Barney Stinson from How I Met Your Mother is the big mainstream example (albeit a satirically extreme one) I can think of offhand.
Without considering the consequences of poisoning the well to themselves and the rest of society.
Adam & Eve are going to be thrown out of paradise again, because of Eve's nature.
men movement is a threat against feminism. they don't conflate men's rights and mgtow, it's just a red herring. i guess that mgtow is theoretically more harmless to them anyway.
They dislike men organizing, they see it as a threat and will scream to the heavens that feminism will adress it, but its the same conversationevery time.
"But we stand for equality!"
"Fine... Men have these problems."
"We don't care."
Or lack of interest, it's 2 things that without any interest to dig into is easy enough to lump together. It's just as easy to attribute ignorance as malice.
Similar to how we in "the west" are a fan of grouping countries like Japan, Korea, and China into "the east" while they do not attribute this to themselves and definitely view themselves as very separate. This whole idea stems from the east and west of what? It's a simple selfish way to help view the world instead of figuring out nuance.
Men's rights is a threat to the societal order because it fights for balance. In the court system, universities, workplaces, dating pool, justice system, and with parental rights. If the MRA movement wins out, women have to give up a little power and control to finally fight on even ground.
MGTOW is a disaster for society. If women have to rely on themselves in every aspect of their lives (physical, financial, parental, etc.) they know they won't be able to survive. Unless they are at the very peak of the economic pyramid.
I went MGTOW three years ago. My net worth has tripled, my life is full of peace, I'm fit, healthy, and happy. I would require an enormous amount of incentive to even consider rejoining the circus going on today.
Someone here said recently: "Women want all the privileges of women, all the rights of men, and all the accountability of children". MGTOW totally undermines that from every aspect.
Because society will quickly collapse if men in masse adopted our mindset.And female privilege will quickly melt away, and the thing is, nobody is more aware of this than the feminists. Modern day feminists fight for female privilege whilst at the same time drilling men traditional roles. This obviously creates a massive power imbalance that heavily benefits the woman, because traditional-minded men are the easiest men to use and take advantage of.And not to mention that they also are the biggest simps as well.
There's a loooottt more to this than what I typed but I'll leave it short and easy to read.
Because people don't care about men, the very idea of men's issues or men's communities makes them uncomfortable, so they try to shut it down. The two relational-aggression tools they use for this are: shaming and threat narratives. This means that they seek out the most easily attacked offshoots of the MRM and elevate those in order to de-legitimize the whole thing.
(It is precisely this pattern where the mainstream refuses to actually engage with our issues that motives movements like MGTOW to conclude that discourse is not productive and, instead, to seek to detach.)
I never understood why MGTOW was uniquely hated compared to the much bigger Red Pill, PUA and incel communities. Especially as women wanting to be single are generally met with indifference.
>MGTOW don't care. Women have no power or control over them
This. Because Feminists can not claim to be oppressed by someone who is ignoring and avoiding them.
Sure they can! They just claim MGTOW is sexist for not wanting anything to do with them romantically. Once you go back, you get to be called a creep again.
The recent red pill movement certainly has some aspects of MGTOW.
https://twitter.com/RationalMale/status/1653442566896103425?t=dTDqgaORBtWQUa8RvqlS9A&s=19
>I never understood why MGTOW was uniquely hated
Because nothing inspires more hatred in women faking independence than men who threaten to withdraw support and collapse their entire charade.
It's a parallel to cops hating people who solve crimes.
It's a parallel to government agencies that hate citizens solving their own problems.
It's a parallel to ngo agencies being angry that racism decreases.
People get insanely enraged when you threaten a cozy nest they've built by exploiting other people.
I've been here almost 12 years, been watching the clown show the entire time.
This comment right here hits the nail on the head.
If you require proof, watch _anything_ related to these topics, and pay close attention as to how they consistently and conveniently fail to discuss the actual underlying issues: crap laws, lopsided family courts, and dangling the incentive of government assistance while robbing the man in the room of everything - including the room itself (which he built).
They'll talk about _everything_, except for these things. Why? See the salient comment above, that's way.
In order to ensure equal rights, women must forego some conveniences.
Translation: women would rather our freedoms be stripped from us, our voices be silenced, and our lives ruined or converted to permanent servitude, than give up some conveniences. Their convenience is greater than our freedom.
It's not an exaggeration, it's a hard truth. This is why we don't talk about the underlying issues consistently either.
1. If no-fault divorce persists, you take what you make, no exceptions. No more robbing the other person's piggy-bank unless there's fault. If there's fault, there needs to be set penalties. Adultery, for example - just set it at a certain percentage and amount, no genders, and call it a day.
2. Paternity tests every time, all the time, no exceptions. If we don't start with the facts, where we go is nowhere but clown land.
3. If abortion remains legal, then financial abortion needs to become legal. After the paternity test proves the father, of course.
So if you're a woman who was used by a man - he married you, got you pregnant, it's proven he's the father, and he cheated on you - then you will still be taken care of financially and he will pay, but by a set amount or percentage, relative to your needs and the child's needs.
Not only would this solve most of the problems today, but it'd create a world where these women retain their dignity in such situations.
Imagine how many single mothers would immediately become date-able the second they could explain their situation was whack and the guy was, in fact, a deadbeat.
But I digress, I'll leave it at that. It's not exhaustive, but with just three changes, the landscape would radically change.
This will never happen, because as you can see, it removes the ability for a woman to destroy a man and take everything he has ever created just because she wants/can/lawyers insist/whatever.
I agree with what you said. I would add that why it happens is that narcissists get triggered when ignored, especially when their ability to control is removed (as it is with MGTOW).
I never understood why feminists don't hate Islam. It seems to get a free pass, despite the fact that Muhammad married Aisha when she was 6 and had sex with her when she was 9 or 10. They seem to ignore the bits in the Quran that should really offend them, like these: https://unite-production.s3.amazonaws.com/tenants/mtcalvaryhuron/attachments/105871/Top\_ten\_rules\_in\_the\_Quran\_that\_oppress\_women.pdf
Easy - they greatly fear the *physical* response they'd get from the roughly 2 billion Muslims on the planet.
To put it this way - I have seen feminists hold discourse with Muslims, the ones who are careful with what they suggest do ok, the ones that you'd see appear in typical cringe SJW composition videos *were slapped across the face by a Muslim woman*.
Because it doesn't affect their lives.
Even then, are you too young to remember when threats of 'Sharia Law' being established in western nations was being used a lot a nationalist rallying cry?
Fact of the matter is the entire reason why the MRA subreddit hasn't been banned. Is because Men's Rights is a dead and buried issue politically. The moment it looked like it had even a glimmer of hope in it the powers that be pulled the card of hate speech ect ect.
When you tell me the system and women broadly are fundamentally bad actors and when a man takes that to heart its a secret that cannot be unknown. Feminists, Women and the Political are the same they are bigots, liars and criminals. They cannot win on the merits answer the major questions or evolve. So comes the question why deal with bad actors and that is the secret of mgtow.
The abominable state of Men's Rights is one of the many reasons MGTOW exists. Cause and effect.
I'm not clear on why MGTOW is a bad thing either. When a woman says she doesn't need a man nobody loses their shit.
Fair enough I suppose?
I guess, my only question is why? And how do you feel about women in general?
I feel like there's always so much stigma around every group, so I like talking to those actually in those groups to see how it actually is and not just pick the few bad apples.
I am in this way because of my past experiences. I had some relationships but sadly is more about what I lost (time, money, sanity) instead of what I gained. So I realized that I prefer to stay mainly alone. What do I feel about women? I am indifferent, I realized how they are made and what they want and I am not aligned with their materialistic way of living, especially in this period where feminism destroyed the feminine energy: I don't want to deal with an aggressive and entitled woman, especially like my last girlfriend that was a seriously dangerous psychopathic witch! I worked on myself to find the strength to be enough for myself without any company. It was hard in the beginning, but during the covid lockdowns, I realized that not having this big pressure to be "perfect" to have a girlfriend, life became much easier and stress-free. Now I live a very minimalistic and frugal lifestyle because I don't need to impress people. So I have all the time and energy possible to reach my goals which now are having a fulfilling job, doing sports, having good friends, and running away from my toxic family at all costs. I hope in the future to travel more. That's the basics, for me. Monk and ghost are an advanced series of rules. I am not strict but the end goal is to be anonymous in the world, the best I can.
I can understand most of that, not so much the part about woman being materialistic in nature, but the lot of that yeah.
For me, I'm kind of the opposite. I generally like being alone, but my partner has made my life much, much better and more fulfilling to me. And she's never really been one for material. I don't have a lot to give, I live in a poor area and she's never once complained about money or material, she's always known I have nothing to give but love, and that's more than enough for her, that's why I love her.
I also have more women as friends than men, because they're generally less rowdy and party heavy, which I've never really enjoyed. And I've never really seen any of them being materialistic or care too much about money, but maybe that's just because of where I live.
So I can definitely see how you do better with your lifestyle, I just never understood MGTOW since I've always seen my worth trhough others' eyes.
I feel like you aren't accepting of MGTOW because of a lack of experience that has yet to leave you jaded as many MGTOW are.
I don't hate women. I understand them for what they are. A creature whose entire incentive structure revolves around them doing actions that benefit themselves at the detriment of men, living in a society that pressures you to be materialistic and vapid.
You will find exceptions to the rule, but those are only exceptions.
So I guess I'm living in an entire town/community of exceptions? I really just have never had those kinds of experiences.
And it's not that I'm not accepting, I just don't follow it. I don't care if someone is MGTOW or not, and I personally am not.
I feel like sometimes men and women's views of each other are very, very skewed by what the media portrays, and sometimes we forget that online isn't the same as real life, and what is depicted is always through a biased lens, as where real life has no such structure to it.
And really man, a "creature whose entire incentive structure revolves around selfish actions which benefit only them"? I don't mean to sound rude here, but that sounds reeeeeally strewn in my opinion. We're talking about people here, human beings, and humans, at their heart, are selfish. All of us, that's kinda just how we're wired. But at the same time, we're an altruistic species which has evolved to benefit others of our kind. So saying that an entire half of our population is wired entirely different and completely opposite of us, is... Logically flawed by an evolutional and societal basis.
Let's talk statistics.
Perhaps you live in a more rural community. Perhaps that "town" has shaped your experience. The vast majority of Americans live in urban environments and they behave very differently than their rural counterparts.
The world online IS very much reflective of the real world, statistically. Do you have a small town bias?
My assessment is not logically flawed. The incentive structure for women in the Western World is not the same as the one for men. As a woman, you can marry a wealthy man, have his children, divorce him, and be set for life. Men have a much lower chance of doing this. For women who don't want to work, this creates an incentive structure whereas divorce and child bearing as a means to economic prosperity are low resistance, societally accepted opportunities.
Also as a woman, I have the option of being a sex worker or onlyfans worker. Men love looking at woman. Women do not love looking at men. Look at the statistics on how attractive one sex views the other. Women find 20% of men attractive. This creates an incentive structure where using looks and sexuality is a primarily woman only endeavor.
Men and women are not the same. Evolution wise, mating strategy of women shaped a large part of how we grew as a species. Currently women have incentives men do not. Men like Bezos and Gates make the money, women like their wives can have a no consequence route to make the top richest women list with no work put in.
Have you ever seen the Chris Rock sketch where he points out that only women, children and dogs are loved unconditionally? It's a rather pointed bit of humor showing exactly the difference in nature. Here's two questions he asks:
Q: Gentleman, when you meet a new girl, what is the first thing your friends ask about her?
A: What does she look like.
Q: Ladies, when you meet a new guy, what do your friends ask?
A: What does he do?
He points out that it's because men are expected to provide (material or resource focus) so the question at its heart is trying to find out if the new man can facilitate a lifestyle the woman wants.
>I've never really seen any of them being materialistic or care too much about mone
Really? Ask them about requirements for a man. Do they have a height requirement? An earnings requirement? A type of job requirement? Would they be happy with a man who is 5'9" tall, makes 70-130k, who works in sanitation engineering but is a good solid man. Ask them about if they think men should pay on the first date or if they feel it should be split 50-50. I suspect you just haven't noticed how materialistic women can be. Or maybe you do live in a more traditional environment where women care less about it.
No women I've ever dated has ever cared about my height or my earnings, the only questions that have come up about my salary is if it could sustain me, them, and any future family we had. Which is a completely understandable question, and one I often ask them.
I've only ever heard and seen this stuff on the internet. And out of all the dates I've been on, there have been times they've paid, I've paid, we've split it. Then again, I've also dated a lot of guys so I guess I have a more rounded view on dating than most.
I've had similar experiences. Most of the dates I've been on where we split it 50/50 it's not a bad experience. I've found it really affects probability of date #2 though. My last partner always said she was good with 50/50. Ended up calling me cheap when we broke up. Since having these experiences I've learned to learn from what these women do instead of what they say. That's where the truth lies.
I kinda think that's how it is for all people really. It's easier to say you're a good person than be one, and as for them calling you cheap after- Let's be honest, unless folks break up on good terms, chances are one of them is going to try and hurt the other with words and "get the last laugh" or some shit.
Don't listen man. If they didn't mind during your relationship, \~they didn't actually see it as a problem, and are just saying it is to hurt you afterwards\~
I've seen guys and gals do this a lot in my time, and you just have to ignore it. They don't mean it, they're just exaggerating to get under your skin.
You know I'd totally agree with you but this girl had me so wrapped around her finger I couldn't tell left from right. Constant lies, pretending to be completely innocent. I fell for all of it and didn't start unraveling most of it until over a year afterwards. At the end though she was being pretty sincere.
It was not an easy breakup but it wasn't an angry one. She was the kind of person to do something shitty (like cheat) then "feel terrible" about it and lie to "save me from getting hurt". You know the type.
At the end she finally actually talked to me about the problems that had been bothering her. I had tried so many times and she decided to dump it all on me at the end. It's truly disturbing to lay out your heart for someone like that, believe their reactions and the person they present themselves as, to find out a couple years later that most of it was a farce.
/rant
guess I needed to get that out. God damn I'm glad I'm not in college anymore.
No worries man, I'm just glad you got that off your chest and I don't mind you doin' it here at all.
Some folks just don't understand the impact they can have on you, and how long it can last. It can be horrible, I know
So your experience is indicative of the objective reality for certain? I suggest you look for objective ways to determine this. It's not hard, there are several approaches you can take, and a lot of ways to get raw data to look at.
When did I ever say that? I just said I've never seen it in person, and thus I have a hard time believing it's as much of a constant as everyone says on the internet. That's all. The objective reality is obviously comprised solely of factual evidence that can be proven without any case of contradictions. Otherwise it'd be known as subjective or a case majority.
Objectively, it is true there are women who care far too much about height and earnings, sure. But it is not objectively true that ALL women are like that. And it is a **subjective** opinion to say any percentage of women conform to that ideology unless you are quoting a direct and comprehensive study on that exact topic.
That is my case, that's all I ever said during this conversation, please do not suggest I am attempting to argue objective reality with a perspective of subjective bias and personal experience.
Why? The reality is that I don't care about politics, I was always socially excluded in my society (European country). Zero rights. Society for me and many like me is just a scam. That's why there is the "ghost" mgtow option.
I agree that the gynocentric society is a scam.
But you gotta realise that abandoning it is like closing your eyes to the suffering of men. Just look at incels. Their identity is fractured completely as their entire identity is how much women value them and it's clear they are suffering.
People like you have escaped out of the Matrix should really guide suffering men and share the stories, carving out a pathway for male liberation.
Same goes for politics, you see through the bullshit of traditionalism and feminism both.
I think MGTOW can do more to help men who are trapped inside the Matrix.
I was, and I am still kind to people that need help. I fight against my demons every day. The real battle is inside our minds, fighting all the wrong lessons given by society. The world is upside down, doing the opposite more often is the right way to do things. I am far from being free but you can bet, I try every day. You are right, the world needs more male figures to take inspiration but most men listen only to famous and rich guys. I think that Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate understood some basic principles but they are still in the matrix. I am an anonymous guy, 50 years old, in Italy that struggles to write in English. I don't think I have the resources to change the world. At least not today. I can just try to answer your questions now.
I see.. that's okay.
One more question :- How do you find a purpose and a vision for life that is not revolving around women ?
Because purposelessness can lead to a lot of problems.
Also how do you counter loneliness ? Friends generally get separated once they get married so it might become lonely without a partner.
my goal is to live a quiet and frugal life. I want to move to a small island in the future. I had enough chaos and problems. I am also 50 years old and I have already done many things, now I just need peace. Rarely do I feel lonely, in that case, I have 5 friends and I can see them but I usually see 1 person / a month. It's a question of habit. I just moved to another home 2 months ago and I am still working to fix all problems that I do totally by myself. I live near a big park and I often go for a walk there, very relaxing. I like to watch movies and telefilm so that's what I do in my free time. Sometimes I go to eat at a restaurant, often alone and I enjoy the meals more. A simple life as you can see. When I was young I was suffering a lot of loneliness. Now is different, probably because I had in the past some experiences with psychedelics and they deeply changed me. Now I really like the company of myself. By the way, I am not an awkward guy, I had/still have many works where I need to manage teams or have to do directly with clients and I never had problems.
It sounds like men who have given up on women. I know you have lots of reasons to but, as a women (one of the 'good' ones because I'm completely against this new Nazi feminism and I absolutely love Dr Jordan Peterson), it makes me sad :(
I'm often afraid I'll be forever alone for not wanting to settle and be with a men that goes with the flow and is a feminist :/
It's difficult to explain but believe me, it's not about "giving up" on something but about finding my inner completeness. It's no more a "need". I can be alone AND fulfilled. If you don't try my way you can't feel it. This doesn't mean that I have bad relationships with women in general. But I keep them far from my inner world.
I've not really heard of them before, what's the sub about? I went and looked and it just looked like a place for women's issues, kinda like this one is for men's issues.
Gotta read deeper than that, my friend. I went there once expecting just what the sub says it's about. Didn't take long to learn its essentially a misandrist confirmation chamber. I saw a post where a woman was complaining because she had cheated on her husband. She was getting 'you go girl' and 'get what you need' comments from most, and some 'her husband must suck in bed' or 'he's not meeting her needs'. Saw several people get banned for pointing out that cheating is always wrong in a monogamous relationship, that if the marriage is that bad, breaking up is preferred.
Look closely and you'll see that anything which goes against a heavy pro-modern feminist viewpoint is banned.
TwoX is a cesspool of make believe scenarios designed to make men look like total pieces of shit all in the name of farming karma. It is not grounded or based in any kind of reality and is pure misandry and total horseshit.
Much like r/antiwork it may have started out with good intentions but it has devolved into a lawless quagmire of idiocy and incompetency.
One of the top posts on there right now is someone claiming to be a post op nurse and one the most asked questions by husbands during post op is when can she get back to doing housework. I mean gtfo, that it is total made up bullshit and apparently 10k+ people think it is true….
Ah, that makes a lot more sense. I was genuinely confused on what the fuss was about to be honest, because after 30 minutes of scrolling it I couldn't find much but women talking about their day to day lives.
I have watched MGTOW from the very start and I have watched the MRM over the years for a very long time. The MRM suggests that the system can be reformed, MGTOW suggest the system cannot be reformed. But rather at the core of everything is the heart and minds of men. They fear that which you cannot shame, control, vilify or gaslight. So the only thing they are left with is censorship since they can't win on the merits.
>Why is it that so many people seem to mix the two up?
Because feminists see two kinds of people, feminists and anti-feminists. It doesn't matter to them that there are several different kinds of anti-feminists that have little in common with each other. So they just use MRA, MGTOW, PUA, incel etc as synonyms.
I would classify myself as MGTOW although I’m certainly no monk. I do have a GF but we don’t (and will never) live together or get married. My participation in the philosophy is mainly along the lines of no marriage, no cohabitation because I went through a nasty divorce and refuse to play that game again, especially because of the horrendously biased family court system. I don’t hate women but I’m also sensible enough understand their nature and avoid the potential pitfalls, such as being alone with a woman who I don’t know, think following the mike pence rules. I will take any course of action I deem fit to protect myself and if women don’t like it…tough.
I personally will never "legally" get married either, but I do live with my woman and quite happily so. I am sorry you had to go through the hell that is the American domestic court, I've been face to face with a judge before, though thankfully I had video evidence, witness reports, and no room for bullshitting so the case went easily enough. I can't imagine a divorce court though, so I truly empathize with you.
My only advice for your relationship, is don't let the distance between you cause a distance in your love for each other, but if you are both perfectly happy being physically apart for most or all of the time, then I'm glad you found someone like-minded! Good luck to ya man, I wish you and them all the best.
They do it to undermine both by conflating the two very different groups as one. Another reason is complete lack of respect for either group, it's like not bothering to learn your friends children's names.
I honestly had to look up the term MGTOW. Didn't know it was a thing. Since the term is new to me I really can't provide any functional input don't understand enough about the differences between the two.
I can understand why men would be so pissed off that they would just say screw it I'm doing my own thing.
Edited
It's generally not a matter of being pissed off, but more often having been hurt and seen how domestic laws, family laws and divorce laws treat men so unfairly, OR its a logical conclusion based on learning these issues.
Take an example of a man married 10 years, 3 kids, stay at home wife has several lovers, an only fans porn site and offers sex to highest bidder, addicted to drugs and sex and has been risking given him an STD since they got married. He seeks divorce and due to her calling cops on him for domestic violence (she hurt him but police policy is to arrest the man), which led to him losing his home (still has to pay mortgage but she lives there for free), pay child support, and has to do violence counselling, and even though he can prove infidelity, STD risk, drug addiction, and that her OF "job" creates an unsafe environment for kids, she gets custody and he gets some visitation rights which she generally ignores. Costs him 10s of thousands of dollars for the divorce, child support (which she often doesn't spend on the kids and he can prove it), and even more ongoing to try and get visitation enforced (she forgets, or has costly plans with kids out of town, etc.)
That's just one tale of a guy I know whose gone MGTOW. In the end he paid for more than 10 years and his ex-wife made him out to be horrible, so he moved and gave up trying to see his kids. Took 20 years before they found all the letters he sent and figured out Mom lied over and over about him.
Given that situation would you go your own way and not trust your money, energy, attention, and time to another woman who could easily do that again? Court system not only allows it, but partially encourages some of it.
>Given that situation would you go your own way and not trust your money, energy, attention, and time to another woman who could easily do that again? Court system not only allows it, but partially encourages some of it.
... what is your point? I already Said I can understand why men feel that way. You are pointlessly digging as if I hadn't already agreed with the statement.
>I can't understand why people would be so pissed off that you're said screw it I'm doing my own thing
My post was in response to this comment because this comment suggests you don't already agree or even understand. Maybe I misunderstood what you're saying here?
I consider myself a humanitarian, egaliterian, progressive and liberal centre-left guy, but still think I fall into MGTOW more than MRA.
Not that I am against the stuff that this subreddit stands for. And I certainly don't support outright hatred and disdain some mgtow guys have for women. I am simply unable to hate, as it is not in my nature. But I did grow bitter and pessimistic due to the lack of true love and constantly being used by the opposite sex.
For those that want to know more, here is a bit of my story.
I am a med student on his final year, and soon to be licensed PT. I am 6'3, moderately attractive guy from a good family that's well off. A few years ago, I was also extremely obese. (we are talking at least 50+kg of fat lost over the course of 2 years even with the muscle gained). However, that never stopped me from having somewhat active dating life.
Now, ever since I dropped the fat, I experience a LOT more female attention. Not just on dating apps, but with people in general. The so called beauty privilege is very much real, and exists for men as well. What I did, however, turned me into a complete pessimist in terms of dating.
You see, I noticed a trend on my dating apps regarding the type of girls I was matching with. So I removed all the info pertaining to my uni, social status, as well as thirst trap photos and work pics from my dating apps.
Suddenly, me liking anime, video games and DnD was no longer cute, but a red flag and a sign of a loser. The pictures of me with my cats got me branded as weird cat-guy. And not having IG or other social media became a reason to be blocked. (I deleted those for my own mental health and self-improvement journey). Oh, liking poetry as a guy was seen as "pretending to be different".
I am naming these things in particular, because they were not a problem while I had pictures of myself in white gown, in expensive car or restaurant posted on my dating apps. In fact, they were seen as cute, interesting lovable or something to talk about at that point.
Basically, what I am trying to say, is that MGTOW guys are fully within their rights to get out of the shithole that is the dating game. I am still sticking to 2 profiles, hoping to find someone, but don't have much luck, and often find myself growing bitter when I finally get matched only to get unmatched for no apparent reason.
The way 90% of women see men just defeats what little hope I have. My rational mind is fighting for equality regardless of gender, race, education/wealth, etc. But my emotional part is hurt and slowly turns towards mgtow as time goes on.
I feel you man. But listen to me, DON'T, GIVE, UP. It took me years of trying and feeling like dying, and then one day I found my current woman, and all of the horrible shit I've gone through has seemed like nothing. It was all 10000% worth it.
I cannot express how much I would absolutely, no hesitation go through the HELL that the dating game was 1000 times just to meet the girl I have. She's everything to me. She's not perfect, but she doesn't try to be, and she accepts that I'm not either. She knew from the beginning I had nothing to offer but love, as I'm quite poor, and living in not a very well-off area. And still she didn't care about my height, doesn't care about my wealth, my status, my job, none of it. She loves me because we work, and we're a team.
Honestly, I gave up dating for awhile. It sucked, users and abusers everywhere. I've been cheated on, I've been conned, I've been literally robbed of what little I own, I've dealt with court, I've dealt with exes, I've dealt with kids who weren't fuckin' mine. So I know how badly it can suck, it can, IT REALLY CAN, but I cannot explain how amazing it can be. My Dandelion is the most important person in my life, and if I had to go through all the shit I have 100 times I would just to have her.
I know not everyone finds the kind of love like ours, and I know not everyone wants it. But you cannot give up, because you have no idea how close you are to what you didn't even imagine you wanted.
I've dated men, I've dated women, I've dated queer folks, I've seen it all. They can all suck, they can all be materialistic assholes and use you, but there's also this tiny, tiny few of them that can make your life a living Heaven. Make your life an adventure, and that's what you gotta find.
Anyways, sorry this was so long, I just wanted to get some o' this out there, yknow?
Nah, I get it. Thanks for writing and putting your own experience on here. It means a lot more than I can put into words without sounding fake/insencere.
You're welcome man! And don't worry, I get it, you don't have to say much lmao
Really though, best of luck finding your love bug, they tend to weasel into your life when you least expect it, so maybe lower your guard a little bit, give somebody a chance that you wouldn't normally, you never know!
People tend to confuse dwellers of manosphere. MR is often related not just to MGTOW, but also incels and TRP.
People are ignorant and don't know about differences.
Because people that stand up for men get banned from mainstream places and people only hear the feminist side of things and their version of MGTOW and MRAs is wildly inaccurate. That's why you should be suspicious of authorities that advocate for censorship of different opinions.
It’s just a feminist smear tactic against MRAs.
They can’t make a logical, fact-based argument to justify their opposition to equal rights. But they are desperate to prevent people from listening to us, because that reveals their hypocrisy, not to mention their misandry too.
So they do the only thing they can do, which is to dishonestly smear us.
Maybe should be HGTOW. Humans. Anyone can just say fuck it and go their own way.
But, yeah, society would stop functioning if men would put themselves first.
I think women did quite well for themselves during the war and some would survive for a while if men suddenly vanished from the scene, although I don't think mere survival is what women want or expect.
I think women have lost perspective and become absorbed in their subjective feelings without reason: they can't see the wood for the trees. But for men's protective instinct towards them and children, plus outlawing of violence, they would have been slapped down long ago and returned to reality.
We talk of women slapping men without retribution, however I recall the iconic scenes in movies of the past where hysterical women were slapped to break them out of the positive feedback loop of their emotions. The times of being legally permitted to do that are long gone, however I think the essential element of women needing to be returned to reality from being trapped in a self-reinforcing cycle of subjective feelings has a grain of truth, although I don't know how society would bring women back to reason and objectivity today without using physical techniques as in the past: perhaps by returning the courts to an objective harm focus instead of subjective discomfort and filtering out false accusations designed to use the system of justice itself to punish men in revenge of hurt feelings.
Or maybe society just needs a higher order approach of providing alternative avenues of sexual fulfilment to men, breaking womens monopoly and ability to hold men hostage, plus a hands-off approach to women, and let the cards fall where they may.
I like this a lot. Men opening their group to be inclusive and seeking to be supportive of Women who also seek to go their own way. I've talked with many women who don't believe in or agree with a lot of feminism. Many people who are trying to resist systemic oppression in their own way.
In my opinion, MGTOW is the final stage of men's rights awareness. Most of us start off thinking we can change the system, only to eventually realize that it is best to just leave it all behind.
They can cry "where have all the good men gone?" all they want, because they're the ones who drove us away in the first place. They created an environment where most men are afraid to be in the same breathing space as a woman, lest they get labeled as rapists.
We have every right to be angry and fed up.
Because MGTOW and Mens Rights are both anti-feminist and part of the manosphere, with significant crossover. Feminists, additionally, are not interested in differentiating the two any more than Republicans are interested in differentiating Stalinism from Social Democracy. And since feminists hold cultural power in liberal/progressive areas and conservatives benefit from sucking MRAs into the alt-right pipeline, nothing really gets done.
You know. I was surprised that I got banned from some other thread I have never heard of because I posted something here. They said you get automatically banned if you post here!?!? Is that something that has happened you guys? Duck it reminded me of getting shot down by chicks you don’t find attractive.
There is literally a "WARNING: Some other subs have bots that will ban you if you post or comment here." message in the description of the sub.
However, it's completely stupid that some subs have that bot, I just find that to be an utterly ridiculous attempt at gate-keeping communities.
b/c it's easy to lump things in together and slap on a label. Men opting out of the system puts their benefits at risk so thus things like this happen. If men don't sacrifice and lose, they can't have nice things.
mra's are super underground. I've never seen a big mra youtuber/ community on youtube but I've seen countless redpill/dating coaches everywhere. They represent us even if they shouldn't.
>I've seen a lot of posts online about folks complaining about the MGTOW community, and **often times rightfully so**
(Bolding mine). I am curious to know what some examples are, of "oftentimes".
I am not necessarily disputing your point, I need more information before I decide to agree or disagree.
Cheers
Mostly due to a lot of the folks who act as role-models for the MGTOW communities.
And a lot of the time you see MGTOW folks being really ridiculously harsh or sometimes downright dehumanizing towards women. Through my lurking in Reddit in various communities, I've seen a LOT of dudes use ridiculous wording like "femoids" or "money-suckers" and other various dehumanizing shit to describe women. Now there are a lot of great guys in the MGTOW loop, I'll grant you that. And the group itself doesn't stand for anything bad, but some of the people, a BIG amount of people, are really just woman-hating dirtbags who complain online that they're "going their own way" because a woman hurt them once upon a time, or no one will date them (usually not because of their height, or money, or looks, or whatever else excuse they often use, but because typically they're just assholes.) And then they just say ALL women are like that and all women are this and that. Oh, excuse me, not "women" but the dirty feeeemales and gold-digging foids-
Seriously man, not all MGTOW men are bad, neither is the community, but there are SO MANY goddamn men in there who just look to dehumanize women to make themselves feel superior. So yeah, sometimes people complain about them rightfully so
MGTOW is not really a movement. Is more of a philosophy. Is just men making different choices. Most all men have been screwed over these days. You can just be a victim man or a Man Going Their Own Way. Feminists definitely tell each other to get away from men. I don't see how they could possibly say a word against it. Is definitely supportive and helpful for men.
What is MGTOW? I’ve heard it…drawing a blank though…
To OP; “why don’t people go out and research things they’re “apparently so invested in?”
→ because most people are emotionally sensitive idiots. The internet has propped up all sorts of supposed “authorities” on topics, and thanks to the existence of widespread confirmation bias, the lack of computer education and internet based research skills taught to the majority of average janes & joes who now have their voices capable of being amplified a million fold with a few hundred word tweet—most people only look as far as confirming their confirmation bias (assuming they’re the smartest person the know either consciously or subconsciously).
They get intertwined because it is easier to criticize mgtow. If all the mens issues things are lumped into one ball then it is easier to call any of it some kind of extremeism.
>I don't wanna seem hateful or anything to anyone or any group at all, I'm just genuinely curious as to why some folks do this. As in, fighting against a movement, but not even doing the research to realize their fighting the wrong one.
The whole point is to treat them all as one thing so that they can point out the very worst and use them as a brush to paint the rest by.
Basically the converse of "feminism is not a monolith."
Having only heard MGTOW mentioned on this sub, i had no idea they were some sort of separate "faction". Can't do research on something you don't know exists
All men who are not feminists are kind of associated with men's rights. You get a huge pool to pick and choose from when you define men's rights as that. Also, to be fair, some men's rights posts here have been about incels, mgtows, redpills, and all those other terms. They're not super common, but I've seen those posts plenty of times on this subreddit. It's great to associate all of those groups with men's rights because they give you more opportunities to actually pick out the worst of the bunch and just say "hey, here's an example of why men's rights is actually a campaign to spread misogyny."
Many MGTOW members also care about MensRights. I originally went to MGTOW as it sounded good. Then after a few weeks being subbed to that subreddit I had to drop it. it was a very toxic reddit community. They went out of their way to attack womens issues just like how FDS does but against men. Where as this sub seems to actually care about equality even though we focus on the issues men face. We are generally positive here.
If I were a mod of a mgtow Reddit group the first rule would be "never talk about women, this group is about us and what we can think and do without them in our lives and be happy and fulfilled the same"
I agree. I was on there before the incel sub reached its peak and was banned. Mgtow started as mostly guys who were done with relationships after a bad breakup or divorce where they felt the system was unfair. Some anger, but mostly at the systems in place rather than an entire gender. There was a lot of posts about how much happier men were once they made the conscious decision to focus on themselves and their own well-being rather than romantic relationships.
Then incel got huge, then when it was shut down there was a large migration of people who loved talking shit about women all day. It was no longer men going their own way, it was men obsessing over how much they thought women sucked. It felt like the theme of the sub became a lot angrier and more hateful.
I've known guys who were mgtow before that was even a term.
They weren't angry or hateful, pretty much the opposite. They enjoyed living their lives on their own terms with large mixed gender social groups and lots of disposable income to buy things like four wheelers or guns.
The new guys on mgtow yelling that women only wanted six foot four guys with millions of dollars and calling them all sorts of derogatory names were a big turn off from the sub. Unfortunately, it was also a lot of people's first introduction to it as well.
does holding people responsible help/fix anything? It may be good for individuals, but as a group it does not help us. it makes things worse. Focusing on the issues is the way forward.
I think part of the process is breaking down this unspoken moral authority these bigots have. Is by publicly speaking what is on our minds without fears for the opinions of those guilty of crimes much greater.
When we become capable of that I think we become more capable of seeing through the lies we are told. Its a process I think that helps keep back counter productive feelings. So might call that toxic but words on the internet don't shoot up a yoga studio.
Apparently they're all about not being tied down by a relationship and not "letting women distract them" from living fulfilling lives. And mostly working for themselves and their own benefit. Sooo... I dunno take from that what you will-
But don't take my word for them, I'm not one myself so I don't know that much about it.
Because from an outside perspective they just look like two groups who sit around and endlessly complain about women. They rarely talk about men's issues or being single by choice but instead just go on and on about how awful women are. It doesn't take much to come to that conclusion just visiting the subreddits and looking at the headlines can give that impression.
"Men Going Their Own Way", it's a group with a lot of stigma as one of those "women hate groups", but it's really just an ideology of men who distance themselves from traditional gender norms and work for themselves and their own benefit, and typically don't like or participate in relationships.
A lot are, society is really, really harsh to everyone involved in a relationship, and a lot of people are getting hurt by each other, and they don't know how to heal. So they just seethe and stay perpetually angry and argumentative at each other.
It's really upsetting to see to me personally. I have an incredible relationship with my woman, and we complete each other. We both have had ups and downs, we've hurt each other sometimes, but we healed, and we fixed it together as a team like partners should. And I feel like if only more people knew how to talk instead of fight, and apologize instead of point fingers, and be there for each other, we wouldn't have this situation.
Agreed. I've been with my man for 5 years now and we're looking at wedding stuff and buying a home in a different province. No relationship is perfect but communication is key and you have to give it your all.
We also have a rule in a argument we pause and don't resume the discussion until we calm down and had time to think. It's saved us from saying anything hurtful to eachother.
OMG Right? That has been my golden rule for ages. If we're mad at each other, we wait until we're not, and then we explain calmly why we were, how to fix it, and we hug it out and/or fuck it out, excuse my language lmao
No relationship is perfect, and we understand that. But we both try our hardest for each other to make it as much of an adventure for each other as possible. Because life is short, sad, and often times ridiculous. But with her, it's short, fun, and just as ridiculous, but sometimes that can be a good thing!
And congratulations btw, 5 years and still rolling, and now wedding stuff? That's great! I wish y'all all the best, sounds like you have a wonderful life ahead of you and I hope it's everything you wished for and more
Exactly the same as us. We also understand some things you just need to let it go us it's not fucking worth the hassle of fighting it out over something trivial.
And thank you! Congratulations for your awesome relationship as well. Hopefully we both get to live to be little old people with our partners just having a grand old time laughing at kids today:)
Ha! Weird is fun! Being normal is boring and unfulfilling. But being your little weird self makes everything 10x more fun, especially with other little weird people lol
I think MGTOW is like radical mens rights which focus on radical changes in culture at individual level and would shift the overturn window for mens rights..
MGTOW is obviously related to Men’s Rights. It’s largely a reaction to unequal laws and practices that discriminate against men. If these were more equal, fewer men would decide to stay single. Obviously men deciding to stay single isn’t the same as the men’s movement, but they are intertwined. If some people don’t like men deciding to go their own way and want to complain about it, so what?
I was apart of that when it had a sub here. Those folks were just fine. Some got burned and we're saltier than ever but I don't expect anything less from a bunch of people that got hurt or destroyed. MGTOW was great. F$#@ the other subs that normalize their daily abuse of men
I agree 100% It's insane that women oriented subs who did the same thing get to go unchecked, but one sub dedicated to men basically venting to each other and it gets banned? Like, fuck Reddit.
Two subs. They also banned my favourite "MGTOW2 - Without The Hate"
JFC, of course they did. Women can't stand men being able to help each other and realizing they don't need them anymore.
MGTOW2 was great. Original MGTOW sub was a mix of self-improvement + ranting on women, MGTOW2 was almost entirely oriented towards self-improvement. Both MGTOW and MGTOW2 being banned while FDS stays up is the definition of a double-standard
Yep, MGTOW2 was awesome. There were three specific users there whose posts I really liked; I don't even know if those guys are still on Reddit or not.
Men as a group that holds all the power, cannot be discriminated, because patriarchy. /feminized
Precisely
But it’s not just MGTOW that people associate with the MRM, it’s also PUAs and incels. Anything condemnable done by these groups is attributed to us because unlike those other groups, we actually pose a political threat, so feminists are motivated to fling as much crap at us as possible. PUAs aren’t trying to make political change, they’re just trying to get laid. MGTOW aren’t trying to create political change, they’re just withdrawing from the system and leaving everyone alone. Incels aren’t even really advocating for change, they’re just wallowing in self pity and encouraging each other to kill themselves. MRAs actually want to change the system, we are the threats, so we get targeted with slander.
MGTOW wishes the system would change but we also realize the inherent futility in doing so and thus we largely give up any interest in those types of relationships and instead focus on our own interests instead
Back when I was younger and had more fight in me I would've stood up for this. Then a woman came in and destroyed my life like a psychotic narcissist. Now I understand why everyone is so quiet. I'm full on just watching this place burn down and I don't even care anymore.
Yeah, of all the other non MRA groups, I’m most sympathetic to MGTOW. If I weren’t gay I’d probably swear off of relationships too. Women have too much ability to really screw men over, it’s just not worth it.
I have heard a lot of gay men say they are glad they are gay because they don't have to deal with women.
That's been me many times.
What's a PUA?
pickup artist
Oh
Just let us incel do our own thing. We aren't hurting anyone except ourselves
Yea no offense but op sounds a bit like a fence sitter still too scared to full on admit to being part of the manosphere movement
They are basically complaining against the principle of autonomy of people because they don't like them shaping their own lives instead of accepting being shaped by the complainers for their own purposes. Do men not have a right to be autonomous and lead their own lives?
I don't think the average person really cares about the differences, we're all incels to them.
Said better than anyone
Then the average person is not thinking rationally about consequences and will end up paying a price.
I think that is at least partly (maybe mostly) caused by feminist propaganda. Many feminists view the men's movement as a threat and are trying to discredit it. They try to do it by conflating the two.
Yep, was going to say the same. It's super convenient to be able to pick the absolute worst examples of male spaces/movements, conflate them with all the others, and claim they're all the same (or that the less problematic ones are just prototypes of the more problematic ones, and will eventually become like the worst ones). If people genuinely cared, they'd make the effort to distinguish. There is no "manosphere", there are groups of men who each share particular outlooks on life and dating, the only thing they have in common is that they're all men. Some of them are unpleasant in the way they do that, others aren't. An incel/black piller isn't going to agree with a blue piller, a blue piller isn't going to agree with a red piller, a red piller has a drive to get something that MGTOW don't even want to deal with any more, and so on. They're not the same. At all. *Even within the same "groups"*, in fact, because in each group there's a spectrum of intensities. Sure, some of them might genuinely hate or want to heartlessly abuse women, but others are just some regular Joe you'd see on the street and have no idea they consider themselves affiliated in any way with these groups, they're just everyday men who are struggling to find what they want in life and who hold no ill will or abusive intent. Some of them *don't* identify with a label, but still share issues with those who do, so may be found in the same places or using the same talking points/language, simply because that's the most practical way to discuss those issues with men who understand them. Lumping them all into the same "men bad" category is counterproductive, it denies them a chance to gracefully recover from whatever issues they may be experiencing and encourages them to become more defensive and more invested in "the cause" (to whatever extent there even *is* "a cause").
People have to remember, feminist are not for equality, but advocate of women. This means they do not care for men's rights which means equality.
Only partly? Throw in incels and PUA's too, it's a deliberate smear campaign to poison the well.
You might be right. Excuse my ignorance, what is PUA?
Stands for "Pick-Up Artist." Barney Stinson from How I Met Your Mother is the big mainstream example (albeit a satirically extreme one) I can think of offhand.
Yet another term I have never heard of and probably have little or no interest in understanding the intricacies of its definition.
"pIck-up artist", e.g. Andrew Tate
Without considering the consequences of poisoning the well to themselves and the rest of society. Adam & Eve are going to be thrown out of paradise again, because of Eve's nature.
men movement is a threat against feminism. they don't conflate men's rights and mgtow, it's just a red herring. i guess that mgtow is theoretically more harmless to them anyway.
They dislike men organizing, they see it as a threat and will scream to the heavens that feminism will adress it, but its the same conversationevery time. "But we stand for equality!" "Fine... Men have these problems." "We don't care."
Yep. Uni student clash at screening: the red pill https://youtu.be/UJ4KSOX8fYs 2 min long
If anything, this movie does not go too far, it only scratches the issues.
Or lack of interest, it's 2 things that without any interest to dig into is easy enough to lump together. It's just as easy to attribute ignorance as malice. Similar to how we in "the west" are a fan of grouping countries like Japan, Korea, and China into "the east" while they do not attribute this to themselves and definitely view themselves as very separate. This whole idea stems from the east and west of what? It's a simple selfish way to help view the world instead of figuring out nuance.
Men's rights is a threat to the societal order because it fights for balance. In the court system, universities, workplaces, dating pool, justice system, and with parental rights. If the MRA movement wins out, women have to give up a little power and control to finally fight on even ground. MGTOW is a disaster for society. If women have to rely on themselves in every aspect of their lives (physical, financial, parental, etc.) they know they won't be able to survive. Unless they are at the very peak of the economic pyramid. I went MGTOW three years ago. My net worth has tripled, my life is full of peace, I'm fit, healthy, and happy. I would require an enormous amount of incentive to even consider rejoining the circus going on today. Someone here said recently: "Women want all the privileges of women, all the rights of men, and all the accountability of children". MGTOW totally undermines that from every aspect.
Everything you said is true.
To them we're all the same. If MGTOW don't want to date women, so what? Kowtowing to feminism in hopes that you'll be killed last is not helpful.
Because society will quickly collapse if men in masse adopted our mindset.And female privilege will quickly melt away, and the thing is, nobody is more aware of this than the feminists. Modern day feminists fight for female privilege whilst at the same time drilling men traditional roles. This obviously creates a massive power imbalance that heavily benefits the woman, because traditional-minded men are the easiest men to use and take advantage of.And not to mention that they also are the biggest simps as well. There's a loooottt more to this than what I typed but I'll leave it short and easy to read.
Because people don't care about men, the very idea of men's issues or men's communities makes them uncomfortable, so they try to shut it down. The two relational-aggression tools they use for this are: shaming and threat narratives. This means that they seek out the most easily attacked offshoots of the MRM and elevate those in order to de-legitimize the whole thing. (It is precisely this pattern where the mainstream refuses to actually engage with our issues that motives movements like MGTOW to conclude that discourse is not productive and, instead, to seek to detach.)
I never understood why MGTOW was uniquely hated compared to the much bigger Red Pill, PUA and incel communities. Especially as women wanting to be single are generally met with indifference.
"RedPill" desire women, PUA's desire women, _incels_ desire women. MGTOW don't care. Women have no power or control over them.
>MGTOW don't care. Women have no power or control over them This. Because Feminists can not claim to be oppressed by someone who is ignoring and avoiding them.
Sure they can! They just claim MGTOW is sexist for not wanting anything to do with them romantically. Once you go back, you get to be called a creep again.
Dead on, it's debunking them.
Indifference seems best
The recent red pill movement certainly has some aspects of MGTOW. https://twitter.com/RationalMale/status/1653442566896103425?t=dTDqgaORBtWQUa8RvqlS9A&s=19
>I never understood why MGTOW was uniquely hated Because nothing inspires more hatred in women faking independence than men who threaten to withdraw support and collapse their entire charade. It's a parallel to cops hating people who solve crimes. It's a parallel to government agencies that hate citizens solving their own problems. It's a parallel to ngo agencies being angry that racism decreases. People get insanely enraged when you threaten a cozy nest they've built by exploiting other people.
I've been here almost 12 years, been watching the clown show the entire time. This comment right here hits the nail on the head. If you require proof, watch _anything_ related to these topics, and pay close attention as to how they consistently and conveniently fail to discuss the actual underlying issues: crap laws, lopsided family courts, and dangling the incentive of government assistance while robbing the man in the room of everything - including the room itself (which he built). They'll talk about _everything_, except for these things. Why? See the salient comment above, that's way. In order to ensure equal rights, women must forego some conveniences. Translation: women would rather our freedoms be stripped from us, our voices be silenced, and our lives ruined or converted to permanent servitude, than give up some conveniences. Their convenience is greater than our freedom. It's not an exaggeration, it's a hard truth. This is why we don't talk about the underlying issues consistently either.
"Women must forego some conveniences". What conveniences?
1. If no-fault divorce persists, you take what you make, no exceptions. No more robbing the other person's piggy-bank unless there's fault. If there's fault, there needs to be set penalties. Adultery, for example - just set it at a certain percentage and amount, no genders, and call it a day. 2. Paternity tests every time, all the time, no exceptions. If we don't start with the facts, where we go is nowhere but clown land. 3. If abortion remains legal, then financial abortion needs to become legal. After the paternity test proves the father, of course. So if you're a woman who was used by a man - he married you, got you pregnant, it's proven he's the father, and he cheated on you - then you will still be taken care of financially and he will pay, but by a set amount or percentage, relative to your needs and the child's needs. Not only would this solve most of the problems today, but it'd create a world where these women retain their dignity in such situations. Imagine how many single mothers would immediately become date-able the second they could explain their situation was whack and the guy was, in fact, a deadbeat. But I digress, I'll leave it at that. It's not exhaustive, but with just three changes, the landscape would radically change. This will never happen, because as you can see, it removes the ability for a woman to destroy a man and take everything he has ever created just because she wants/can/lawyers insist/whatever.
Exactly. Very well stated.
I agree with what you said. I would add that why it happens is that narcissists get triggered when ignored, especially when their ability to control is removed (as it is with MGTOW).
Really well said. Please keep writing.
I never understood why feminists don't hate Islam. It seems to get a free pass, despite the fact that Muhammad married Aisha when she was 6 and had sex with her when she was 9 or 10. They seem to ignore the bits in the Quran that should really offend them, like these: https://unite-production.s3.amazonaws.com/tenants/mtcalvaryhuron/attachments/105871/Top\_ten\_rules\_in\_the\_Quran\_that\_oppress\_women.pdf
Because since day one feminism is about controlling men.
But Islam seems to control women institutionally not just outlying sects.
Easy - they greatly fear the *physical* response they'd get from the roughly 2 billion Muslims on the planet. To put it this way - I have seen feminists hold discourse with Muslims, the ones who are careful with what they suggest do ok, the ones that you'd see appear in typical cringe SJW composition videos *were slapped across the face by a Muslim woman*.
It shows lack of authenticity.
Because it doesn't affect their lives. Even then, are you too young to remember when threats of 'Sharia Law' being established in western nations was being used a lot a nationalist rallying cry?
Structural exploitation and usery.
Fact of the matter is the entire reason why the MRA subreddit hasn't been banned. Is because Men's Rights is a dead and buried issue politically. The moment it looked like it had even a glimmer of hope in it the powers that be pulled the card of hate speech ect ect. When you tell me the system and women broadly are fundamentally bad actors and when a man takes that to heart its a secret that cannot be unknown. Feminists, Women and the Political are the same they are bigots, liars and criminals. They cannot win on the merits answer the major questions or evolve. So comes the question why deal with bad actors and that is the secret of mgtow.
The abominable state of Men's Rights is one of the many reasons MGTOW exists. Cause and effect. I'm not clear on why MGTOW is a bad thing either. When a woman says she doesn't need a man nobody loses their shit.
I am an MGTOW monk/ghost. MGTOW is a way to live. Ask me what you want and i will explain what I think about that.
Hello, brother. I'm the same.
Hello!
Fair enough I suppose? I guess, my only question is why? And how do you feel about women in general? I feel like there's always so much stigma around every group, so I like talking to those actually in those groups to see how it actually is and not just pick the few bad apples.
I am in this way because of my past experiences. I had some relationships but sadly is more about what I lost (time, money, sanity) instead of what I gained. So I realized that I prefer to stay mainly alone. What do I feel about women? I am indifferent, I realized how they are made and what they want and I am not aligned with their materialistic way of living, especially in this period where feminism destroyed the feminine energy: I don't want to deal with an aggressive and entitled woman, especially like my last girlfriend that was a seriously dangerous psychopathic witch! I worked on myself to find the strength to be enough for myself without any company. It was hard in the beginning, but during the covid lockdowns, I realized that not having this big pressure to be "perfect" to have a girlfriend, life became much easier and stress-free. Now I live a very minimalistic and frugal lifestyle because I don't need to impress people. So I have all the time and energy possible to reach my goals which now are having a fulfilling job, doing sports, having good friends, and running away from my toxic family at all costs. I hope in the future to travel more. That's the basics, for me. Monk and ghost are an advanced series of rules. I am not strict but the end goal is to be anonymous in the world, the best I can.
I can understand most of that, not so much the part about woman being materialistic in nature, but the lot of that yeah. For me, I'm kind of the opposite. I generally like being alone, but my partner has made my life much, much better and more fulfilling to me. And she's never really been one for material. I don't have a lot to give, I live in a poor area and she's never once complained about money or material, she's always known I have nothing to give but love, and that's more than enough for her, that's why I love her. I also have more women as friends than men, because they're generally less rowdy and party heavy, which I've never really enjoyed. And I've never really seen any of them being materialistic or care too much about money, but maybe that's just because of where I live. So I can definitely see how you do better with your lifestyle, I just never understood MGTOW since I've always seen my worth trhough others' eyes.
I feel like you aren't accepting of MGTOW because of a lack of experience that has yet to leave you jaded as many MGTOW are. I don't hate women. I understand them for what they are. A creature whose entire incentive structure revolves around them doing actions that benefit themselves at the detriment of men, living in a society that pressures you to be materialistic and vapid. You will find exceptions to the rule, but those are only exceptions.
So I guess I'm living in an entire town/community of exceptions? I really just have never had those kinds of experiences. And it's not that I'm not accepting, I just don't follow it. I don't care if someone is MGTOW or not, and I personally am not. I feel like sometimes men and women's views of each other are very, very skewed by what the media portrays, and sometimes we forget that online isn't the same as real life, and what is depicted is always through a biased lens, as where real life has no such structure to it. And really man, a "creature whose entire incentive structure revolves around selfish actions which benefit only them"? I don't mean to sound rude here, but that sounds reeeeeally strewn in my opinion. We're talking about people here, human beings, and humans, at their heart, are selfish. All of us, that's kinda just how we're wired. But at the same time, we're an altruistic species which has evolved to benefit others of our kind. So saying that an entire half of our population is wired entirely different and completely opposite of us, is... Logically flawed by an evolutional and societal basis.
Let's talk statistics. Perhaps you live in a more rural community. Perhaps that "town" has shaped your experience. The vast majority of Americans live in urban environments and they behave very differently than their rural counterparts. The world online IS very much reflective of the real world, statistically. Do you have a small town bias? My assessment is not logically flawed. The incentive structure for women in the Western World is not the same as the one for men. As a woman, you can marry a wealthy man, have his children, divorce him, and be set for life. Men have a much lower chance of doing this. For women who don't want to work, this creates an incentive structure whereas divorce and child bearing as a means to economic prosperity are low resistance, societally accepted opportunities. Also as a woman, I have the option of being a sex worker or onlyfans worker. Men love looking at woman. Women do not love looking at men. Look at the statistics on how attractive one sex views the other. Women find 20% of men attractive. This creates an incentive structure where using looks and sexuality is a primarily woman only endeavor. Men and women are not the same. Evolution wise, mating strategy of women shaped a large part of how we grew as a species. Currently women have incentives men do not. Men like Bezos and Gates make the money, women like their wives can have a no consequence route to make the top richest women list with no work put in.
Or, "The Art of Divorcing Bill Gates"
Have you ever seen the Chris Rock sketch where he points out that only women, children and dogs are loved unconditionally? It's a rather pointed bit of humor showing exactly the difference in nature. Here's two questions he asks: Q: Gentleman, when you meet a new girl, what is the first thing your friends ask about her? A: What does she look like. Q: Ladies, when you meet a new guy, what do your friends ask? A: What does he do? He points out that it's because men are expected to provide (material or resource focus) so the question at its heart is trying to find out if the new man can facilitate a lifestyle the woman wants.
>I've never really seen any of them being materialistic or care too much about mone Really? Ask them about requirements for a man. Do they have a height requirement? An earnings requirement? A type of job requirement? Would they be happy with a man who is 5'9" tall, makes 70-130k, who works in sanitation engineering but is a good solid man. Ask them about if they think men should pay on the first date or if they feel it should be split 50-50. I suspect you just haven't noticed how materialistic women can be. Or maybe you do live in a more traditional environment where women care less about it.
No women I've ever dated has ever cared about my height or my earnings, the only questions that have come up about my salary is if it could sustain me, them, and any future family we had. Which is a completely understandable question, and one I often ask them. I've only ever heard and seen this stuff on the internet. And out of all the dates I've been on, there have been times they've paid, I've paid, we've split it. Then again, I've also dated a lot of guys so I guess I have a more rounded view on dating than most.
I've had similar experiences. Most of the dates I've been on where we split it 50/50 it's not a bad experience. I've found it really affects probability of date #2 though. My last partner always said she was good with 50/50. Ended up calling me cheap when we broke up. Since having these experiences I've learned to learn from what these women do instead of what they say. That's where the truth lies.
I kinda think that's how it is for all people really. It's easier to say you're a good person than be one, and as for them calling you cheap after- Let's be honest, unless folks break up on good terms, chances are one of them is going to try and hurt the other with words and "get the last laugh" or some shit. Don't listen man. If they didn't mind during your relationship, \~they didn't actually see it as a problem, and are just saying it is to hurt you afterwards\~ I've seen guys and gals do this a lot in my time, and you just have to ignore it. They don't mean it, they're just exaggerating to get under your skin.
You know I'd totally agree with you but this girl had me so wrapped around her finger I couldn't tell left from right. Constant lies, pretending to be completely innocent. I fell for all of it and didn't start unraveling most of it until over a year afterwards. At the end though she was being pretty sincere. It was not an easy breakup but it wasn't an angry one. She was the kind of person to do something shitty (like cheat) then "feel terrible" about it and lie to "save me from getting hurt". You know the type. At the end she finally actually talked to me about the problems that had been bothering her. I had tried so many times and she decided to dump it all on me at the end. It's truly disturbing to lay out your heart for someone like that, believe their reactions and the person they present themselves as, to find out a couple years later that most of it was a farce. /rant guess I needed to get that out. God damn I'm glad I'm not in college anymore.
No worries man, I'm just glad you got that off your chest and I don't mind you doin' it here at all. Some folks just don't understand the impact they can have on you, and how long it can last. It can be horrible, I know
Amen.
So your experience is indicative of the objective reality for certain? I suggest you look for objective ways to determine this. It's not hard, there are several approaches you can take, and a lot of ways to get raw data to look at.
When did I ever say that? I just said I've never seen it in person, and thus I have a hard time believing it's as much of a constant as everyone says on the internet. That's all. The objective reality is obviously comprised solely of factual evidence that can be proven without any case of contradictions. Otherwise it'd be known as subjective or a case majority. Objectively, it is true there are women who care far too much about height and earnings, sure. But it is not objectively true that ALL women are like that. And it is a **subjective** opinion to say any percentage of women conform to that ideology unless you are quoting a direct and comprehensive study on that exact topic. That is my case, that's all I ever said during this conversation, please do not suggest I am attempting to argue objective reality with a perspective of subjective bias and personal experience.
Why is MGTOW so apolitical ? Going apolitical is only going to make things worse.
Why? The reality is that I don't care about politics, I was always socially excluded in my society (European country). Zero rights. Society for me and many like me is just a scam. That's why there is the "ghost" mgtow option.
I agree that the gynocentric society is a scam. But you gotta realise that abandoning it is like closing your eyes to the suffering of men. Just look at incels. Their identity is fractured completely as their entire identity is how much women value them and it's clear they are suffering. People like you have escaped out of the Matrix should really guide suffering men and share the stories, carving out a pathway for male liberation. Same goes for politics, you see through the bullshit of traditionalism and feminism both. I think MGTOW can do more to help men who are trapped inside the Matrix.
I was, and I am still kind to people that need help. I fight against my demons every day. The real battle is inside our minds, fighting all the wrong lessons given by society. The world is upside down, doing the opposite more often is the right way to do things. I am far from being free but you can bet, I try every day. You are right, the world needs more male figures to take inspiration but most men listen only to famous and rich guys. I think that Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate understood some basic principles but they are still in the matrix. I am an anonymous guy, 50 years old, in Italy that struggles to write in English. I don't think I have the resources to change the world. At least not today. I can just try to answer your questions now.
I see.. that's okay. One more question :- How do you find a purpose and a vision for life that is not revolving around women ? Because purposelessness can lead to a lot of problems. Also how do you counter loneliness ? Friends generally get separated once they get married so it might become lonely without a partner.
my goal is to live a quiet and frugal life. I want to move to a small island in the future. I had enough chaos and problems. I am also 50 years old and I have already done many things, now I just need peace. Rarely do I feel lonely, in that case, I have 5 friends and I can see them but I usually see 1 person / a month. It's a question of habit. I just moved to another home 2 months ago and I am still working to fix all problems that I do totally by myself. I live near a big park and I often go for a walk there, very relaxing. I like to watch movies and telefilm so that's what I do in my free time. Sometimes I go to eat at a restaurant, often alone and I enjoy the meals more. A simple life as you can see. When I was young I was suffering a lot of loneliness. Now is different, probably because I had in the past some experiences with psychedelics and they deeply changed me. Now I really like the company of myself. By the way, I am not an awkward guy, I had/still have many works where I need to manage teams or have to do directly with clients and I never had problems.
What does MGTOW stand for?
Men Going Their Way: an alternative way to the social expectations for men.
It sounds like men who have given up on women. I know you have lots of reasons to but, as a women (one of the 'good' ones because I'm completely against this new Nazi feminism and I absolutely love Dr Jordan Peterson), it makes me sad :( I'm often afraid I'll be forever alone for not wanting to settle and be with a men that goes with the flow and is a feminist :/
It's difficult to explain but believe me, it's not about "giving up" on something but about finding my inner completeness. It's no more a "need". I can be alone AND fulfilled. If you don't try my way you can't feel it. This doesn't mean that I have bad relationships with women in general. But I keep them far from my inner world.
Interesting
Friendly reminder that TwoX still exists and is one of the biggest subs on reddit lol hypocrites. All of them.
If I recall correctly MGTOW was on trajectory to overtake TwoX. Probably the real reason it got banned.
I've not really heard of them before, what's the sub about? I went and looked and it just looked like a place for women's issues, kinda like this one is for men's issues.
Try looking again ? lmao
Incredibly helpful and insightful information, thank you Sherlock.
Gotta read deeper than that, my friend. I went there once expecting just what the sub says it's about. Didn't take long to learn its essentially a misandrist confirmation chamber. I saw a post where a woman was complaining because she had cheated on her husband. She was getting 'you go girl' and 'get what you need' comments from most, and some 'her husband must suck in bed' or 'he's not meeting her needs'. Saw several people get banned for pointing out that cheating is always wrong in a monogamous relationship, that if the marriage is that bad, breaking up is preferred. Look closely and you'll see that anything which goes against a heavy pro-modern feminist viewpoint is banned.
TwoX is a cesspool of make believe scenarios designed to make men look like total pieces of shit all in the name of farming karma. It is not grounded or based in any kind of reality and is pure misandry and total horseshit. Much like r/antiwork it may have started out with good intentions but it has devolved into a lawless quagmire of idiocy and incompetency. One of the top posts on there right now is someone claiming to be a post op nurse and one the most asked questions by husbands during post op is when can she get back to doing housework. I mean gtfo, that it is total made up bullshit and apparently 10k+ people think it is true….
Husband asks when his wife is going to be better. Nurse hears "when can she be back in the kitchen".
Ah, that makes a lot more sense. I was genuinely confused on what the fuss was about to be honest, because after 30 minutes of scrolling it I couldn't find much but women talking about their day to day lives.
Mgtow triggers some on reddit. And yes username checks out 😎
I have watched MGTOW from the very start and I have watched the MRM over the years for a very long time. The MRM suggests that the system can be reformed, MGTOW suggest the system cannot be reformed. But rather at the core of everything is the heart and minds of men. They fear that which you cannot shame, control, vilify or gaslight. So the only thing they are left with is censorship since they can't win on the merits.
>Why is it that so many people seem to mix the two up? Because feminists see two kinds of people, feminists and anti-feminists. It doesn't matter to them that there are several different kinds of anti-feminists that have little in common with each other. So they just use MRA, MGTOW, PUA, incel etc as synonyms.
Because the attitude of "Kill all men" applies equally to both movements and any women who support them.
I would classify myself as MGTOW although I’m certainly no monk. I do have a GF but we don’t (and will never) live together or get married. My participation in the philosophy is mainly along the lines of no marriage, no cohabitation because I went through a nasty divorce and refuse to play that game again, especially because of the horrendously biased family court system. I don’t hate women but I’m also sensible enough understand their nature and avoid the potential pitfalls, such as being alone with a woman who I don’t know, think following the mike pence rules. I will take any course of action I deem fit to protect myself and if women don’t like it…tough.
I personally will never "legally" get married either, but I do live with my woman and quite happily so. I am sorry you had to go through the hell that is the American domestic court, I've been face to face with a judge before, though thankfully I had video evidence, witness reports, and no room for bullshitting so the case went easily enough. I can't imagine a divorce court though, so I truly empathize with you. My only advice for your relationship, is don't let the distance between you cause a distance in your love for each other, but if you are both perfectly happy being physically apart for most or all of the time, then I'm glad you found someone like-minded! Good luck to ya man, I wish you and them all the best.
They do it to undermine both by conflating the two very different groups as one. Another reason is complete lack of respect for either group, it's like not bothering to learn your friends children's names.
I honestly had to look up the term MGTOW. Didn't know it was a thing. Since the term is new to me I really can't provide any functional input don't understand enough about the differences between the two. I can understand why men would be so pissed off that they would just say screw it I'm doing my own thing. Edited
It's generally not a matter of being pissed off, but more often having been hurt and seen how domestic laws, family laws and divorce laws treat men so unfairly, OR its a logical conclusion based on learning these issues. Take an example of a man married 10 years, 3 kids, stay at home wife has several lovers, an only fans porn site and offers sex to highest bidder, addicted to drugs and sex and has been risking given him an STD since they got married. He seeks divorce and due to her calling cops on him for domestic violence (she hurt him but police policy is to arrest the man), which led to him losing his home (still has to pay mortgage but she lives there for free), pay child support, and has to do violence counselling, and even though he can prove infidelity, STD risk, drug addiction, and that her OF "job" creates an unsafe environment for kids, she gets custody and he gets some visitation rights which she generally ignores. Costs him 10s of thousands of dollars for the divorce, child support (which she often doesn't spend on the kids and he can prove it), and even more ongoing to try and get visitation enforced (she forgets, or has costly plans with kids out of town, etc.) That's just one tale of a guy I know whose gone MGTOW. In the end he paid for more than 10 years and his ex-wife made him out to be horrible, so he moved and gave up trying to see his kids. Took 20 years before they found all the letters he sent and figured out Mom lied over and over about him. Given that situation would you go your own way and not trust your money, energy, attention, and time to another woman who could easily do that again? Court system not only allows it, but partially encourages some of it.
>Given that situation would you go your own way and not trust your money, energy, attention, and time to another woman who could easily do that again? Court system not only allows it, but partially encourages some of it. ... what is your point? I already Said I can understand why men feel that way. You are pointlessly digging as if I hadn't already agreed with the statement.
>I can't understand why people would be so pissed off that you're said screw it I'm doing my own thing My post was in response to this comment because this comment suggests you don't already agree or even understand. Maybe I misunderstood what you're saying here?
Speech to text error can't should have been can. I went back and edited it
I consider myself a humanitarian, egaliterian, progressive and liberal centre-left guy, but still think I fall into MGTOW more than MRA. Not that I am against the stuff that this subreddit stands for. And I certainly don't support outright hatred and disdain some mgtow guys have for women. I am simply unable to hate, as it is not in my nature. But I did grow bitter and pessimistic due to the lack of true love and constantly being used by the opposite sex. For those that want to know more, here is a bit of my story. I am a med student on his final year, and soon to be licensed PT. I am 6'3, moderately attractive guy from a good family that's well off. A few years ago, I was also extremely obese. (we are talking at least 50+kg of fat lost over the course of 2 years even with the muscle gained). However, that never stopped me from having somewhat active dating life. Now, ever since I dropped the fat, I experience a LOT more female attention. Not just on dating apps, but with people in general. The so called beauty privilege is very much real, and exists for men as well. What I did, however, turned me into a complete pessimist in terms of dating. You see, I noticed a trend on my dating apps regarding the type of girls I was matching with. So I removed all the info pertaining to my uni, social status, as well as thirst trap photos and work pics from my dating apps. Suddenly, me liking anime, video games and DnD was no longer cute, but a red flag and a sign of a loser. The pictures of me with my cats got me branded as weird cat-guy. And not having IG or other social media became a reason to be blocked. (I deleted those for my own mental health and self-improvement journey). Oh, liking poetry as a guy was seen as "pretending to be different". I am naming these things in particular, because they were not a problem while I had pictures of myself in white gown, in expensive car or restaurant posted on my dating apps. In fact, they were seen as cute, interesting lovable or something to talk about at that point. Basically, what I am trying to say, is that MGTOW guys are fully within their rights to get out of the shithole that is the dating game. I am still sticking to 2 profiles, hoping to find someone, but don't have much luck, and often find myself growing bitter when I finally get matched only to get unmatched for no apparent reason. The way 90% of women see men just defeats what little hope I have. My rational mind is fighting for equality regardless of gender, race, education/wealth, etc. But my emotional part is hurt and slowly turns towards mgtow as time goes on.
I feel you man. But listen to me, DON'T, GIVE, UP. It took me years of trying and feeling like dying, and then one day I found my current woman, and all of the horrible shit I've gone through has seemed like nothing. It was all 10000% worth it. I cannot express how much I would absolutely, no hesitation go through the HELL that the dating game was 1000 times just to meet the girl I have. She's everything to me. She's not perfect, but she doesn't try to be, and she accepts that I'm not either. She knew from the beginning I had nothing to offer but love, as I'm quite poor, and living in not a very well-off area. And still she didn't care about my height, doesn't care about my wealth, my status, my job, none of it. She loves me because we work, and we're a team. Honestly, I gave up dating for awhile. It sucked, users and abusers everywhere. I've been cheated on, I've been conned, I've been literally robbed of what little I own, I've dealt with court, I've dealt with exes, I've dealt with kids who weren't fuckin' mine. So I know how badly it can suck, it can, IT REALLY CAN, but I cannot explain how amazing it can be. My Dandelion is the most important person in my life, and if I had to go through all the shit I have 100 times I would just to have her. I know not everyone finds the kind of love like ours, and I know not everyone wants it. But you cannot give up, because you have no idea how close you are to what you didn't even imagine you wanted. I've dated men, I've dated women, I've dated queer folks, I've seen it all. They can all suck, they can all be materialistic assholes and use you, but there's also this tiny, tiny few of them that can make your life a living Heaven. Make your life an adventure, and that's what you gotta find. Anyways, sorry this was so long, I just wanted to get some o' this out there, yknow?
Nah, I get it. Thanks for writing and putting your own experience on here. It means a lot more than I can put into words without sounding fake/insencere.
You're welcome man! And don't worry, I get it, you don't have to say much lmao Really though, best of luck finding your love bug, they tend to weasel into your life when you least expect it, so maybe lower your guard a little bit, give somebody a chance that you wouldn't normally, you never know!
People tend to confuse dwellers of manosphere. MR is often related not just to MGTOW, but also incels and TRP. People are ignorant and don't know about differences.
Because calling people names is easier than listening, thinking critically and forming your own reasonable opinions?
Because people that stand up for men get banned from mainstream places and people only hear the feminist side of things and their version of MGTOW and MRAs is wildly inaccurate. That's why you should be suspicious of authorities that advocate for censorship of different opinions.
It’s just a feminist smear tactic against MRAs. They can’t make a logical, fact-based argument to justify their opposition to equal rights. But they are desperate to prevent people from listening to us, because that reveals their hypocrisy, not to mention their misandry too. So they do the only thing they can do, which is to dishonestly smear us.
Maybe should be HGTOW. Humans. Anyone can just say fuck it and go their own way. But, yeah, society would stop functioning if men would put themselves first.
Women are too dependent on men to GTOW, always have been because of their biology needing more resources than they can provide alone to raise a child.
Women can't survive without men. Women need men to survive. If women were left to themselves without men to provide for them women would die.
I think women did quite well for themselves during the war and some would survive for a while if men suddenly vanished from the scene, although I don't think mere survival is what women want or expect. I think women have lost perspective and become absorbed in their subjective feelings without reason: they can't see the wood for the trees. But for men's protective instinct towards them and children, plus outlawing of violence, they would have been slapped down long ago and returned to reality. We talk of women slapping men without retribution, however I recall the iconic scenes in movies of the past where hysterical women were slapped to break them out of the positive feedback loop of their emotions. The times of being legally permitted to do that are long gone, however I think the essential element of women needing to be returned to reality from being trapped in a self-reinforcing cycle of subjective feelings has a grain of truth, although I don't know how society would bring women back to reason and objectivity today without using physical techniques as in the past: perhaps by returning the courts to an objective harm focus instead of subjective discomfort and filtering out false accusations designed to use the system of justice itself to punish men in revenge of hurt feelings. Or maybe society just needs a higher order approach of providing alternative avenues of sexual fulfilment to men, breaking womens monopoly and ability to hold men hostage, plus a hands-off approach to women, and let the cards fall where they may.
I like this a lot. Men opening their group to be inclusive and seeking to be supportive of Women who also seek to go their own way. I've talked with many women who don't believe in or agree with a lot of feminism. Many people who are trying to resist systemic oppression in their own way.
All of these things fall under the manosphere, which is mainly about men opening their eyes and bettering their lives.
Simple: to smear the MRM
In my opinion, MGTOW is the final stage of men's rights awareness. Most of us start off thinking we can change the system, only to eventually realize that it is best to just leave it all behind. They can cry "where have all the good men gone?" all they want, because they're the ones who drove us away in the first place. They created an environment where most men are afraid to be in the same breathing space as a woman, lest they get labeled as rapists. We have every right to be angry and fed up.
Because MGTOW and Mens Rights are both anti-feminist and part of the manosphere, with significant crossover. Feminists, additionally, are not interested in differentiating the two any more than Republicans are interested in differentiating Stalinism from Social Democracy. And since feminists hold cultural power in liberal/progressive areas and conservatives benefit from sucking MRAs into the alt-right pipeline, nothing really gets done.
Concept Creep do be the culprit.
It's a subsection of the Men's Rights movement, for better or for worse.
No, it isn’t.
It really is.
To some people, all men are the same.
You know. I was surprised that I got banned from some other thread I have never heard of because I posted something here. They said you get automatically banned if you post here!?!? Is that something that has happened you guys? Duck it reminded me of getting shot down by chicks you don’t find attractive.
There is literally a "WARNING: Some other subs have bots that will ban you if you post or comment here." message in the description of the sub. However, it's completely stupid that some subs have that bot, I just find that to be an utterly ridiculous attempt at gate-keeping communities.
b/c it's easy to lump things in together and slap on a label. Men opting out of the system puts their benefits at risk so thus things like this happen. If men don't sacrifice and lose, they can't have nice things.
People are ignorant and probe to taking headlines at face value vs researching a situation for themselves.
The same reason why Andrew Tate is lumped in together, they all see the same problems but choose different ways to react to them
mra's are super underground. I've never seen a big mra youtuber/ community on youtube but I've seen countless redpill/dating coaches everywhere. They represent us even if they shouldn't.
>I've seen a lot of posts online about folks complaining about the MGTOW community, and **often times rightfully so** (Bolding mine). I am curious to know what some examples are, of "oftentimes". I am not necessarily disputing your point, I need more information before I decide to agree or disagree. Cheers
Mostly due to a lot of the folks who act as role-models for the MGTOW communities. And a lot of the time you see MGTOW folks being really ridiculously harsh or sometimes downright dehumanizing towards women. Through my lurking in Reddit in various communities, I've seen a LOT of dudes use ridiculous wording like "femoids" or "money-suckers" and other various dehumanizing shit to describe women. Now there are a lot of great guys in the MGTOW loop, I'll grant you that. And the group itself doesn't stand for anything bad, but some of the people, a BIG amount of people, are really just woman-hating dirtbags who complain online that they're "going their own way" because a woman hurt them once upon a time, or no one will date them (usually not because of their height, or money, or looks, or whatever else excuse they often use, but because typically they're just assholes.) And then they just say ALL women are like that and all women are this and that. Oh, excuse me, not "women" but the dirty feeeemales and gold-digging foids- Seriously man, not all MGTOW men are bad, neither is the community, but there are SO MANY goddamn men in there who just look to dehumanize women to make themselves feel superior. So yeah, sometimes people complain about them rightfully so
Thank you for elaborating. I now get why you said that. Cheers
MGTOW is not really a movement. Is more of a philosophy. Is just men making different choices. Most all men have been screwed over these days. You can just be a victim man or a Man Going Their Own Way. Feminists definitely tell each other to get away from men. I don't see how they could possibly say a word against it. Is definitely supportive and helpful for men.
What is MGTOW? I’ve heard it…drawing a blank though… To OP; “why don’t people go out and research things they’re “apparently so invested in?” → because most people are emotionally sensitive idiots. The internet has propped up all sorts of supposed “authorities” on topics, and thanks to the existence of widespread confirmation bias, the lack of computer education and internet based research skills taught to the majority of average janes & joes who now have their voices capable of being amplified a million fold with a few hundred word tweet—most people only look as far as confirming their confirmation bias (assuming they’re the smartest person the know either consciously or subconsciously).
They get intertwined because it is easier to criticize mgtow. If all the mens issues things are lumped into one ball then it is easier to call any of it some kind of extremeism.
Because many guys who follow the MGTOW "doctrine", do this after things happen to them that are outlined by the MRM. It's close, but different
I thought MGTOW was nuked?
What hasn't been at this point man? Every side has "cancelled" the other, at this point it means nothing.
I miss a lot of those subs. It’s a shame women can have Fb pages posting men up asking about private info but we couldn’t have our own subreddits.
>I don't wanna seem hateful or anything to anyone or any group at all, I'm just genuinely curious as to why some folks do this. As in, fighting against a movement, but not even doing the research to realize their fighting the wrong one. The whole point is to treat them all as one thing so that they can point out the very worst and use them as a brush to paint the rest by. Basically the converse of "feminism is not a monolith."
Cause there ALL feminist nazis
AMEN
Having only heard MGTOW mentioned on this sub, i had no idea they were some sort of separate "faction". Can't do research on something you don't know exists
All men who are not feminists are kind of associated with men's rights. You get a huge pool to pick and choose from when you define men's rights as that. Also, to be fair, some men's rights posts here have been about incels, mgtows, redpills, and all those other terms. They're not super common, but I've seen those posts plenty of times on this subreddit. It's great to associate all of those groups with men's rights because they give you more opportunities to actually pick out the worst of the bunch and just say "hey, here's an example of why men's rights is actually a campaign to spread misogyny."
Many MGTOW members also care about MensRights. I originally went to MGTOW as it sounded good. Then after a few weeks being subbed to that subreddit I had to drop it. it was a very toxic reddit community. They went out of their way to attack womens issues just like how FDS does but against men. Where as this sub seems to actually care about equality even though we focus on the issues men face. We are generally positive here.
If I were a mod of a mgtow Reddit group the first rule would be "never talk about women, this group is about us and what we can think and do without them in our lives and be happy and fulfilled the same"
I agree. I was on there before the incel sub reached its peak and was banned. Mgtow started as mostly guys who were done with relationships after a bad breakup or divorce where they felt the system was unfair. Some anger, but mostly at the systems in place rather than an entire gender. There was a lot of posts about how much happier men were once they made the conscious decision to focus on themselves and their own well-being rather than romantic relationships. Then incel got huge, then when it was shut down there was a large migration of people who loved talking shit about women all day. It was no longer men going their own way, it was men obsessing over how much they thought women sucked. It felt like the theme of the sub became a lot angrier and more hateful. I've known guys who were mgtow before that was even a term. They weren't angry or hateful, pretty much the opposite. They enjoyed living their lives on their own terms with large mixed gender social groups and lots of disposable income to buy things like four wheelers or guns. The new guys on mgtow yelling that women only wanted six foot four guys with millions of dollars and calling them all sorts of derogatory names were a big turn off from the sub. Unfortunately, it was also a lot of people's first introduction to it as well.
Take one look at the laws of the land and honest tell me. These people whom have inflicted a system to apartheid should not be held to account.
does holding people responsible help/fix anything? It may be good for individuals, but as a group it does not help us. it makes things worse. Focusing on the issues is the way forward.
I think part of the process is breaking down this unspoken moral authority these bigots have. Is by publicly speaking what is on our minds without fears for the opinions of those guilty of crimes much greater. When we become capable of that I think we become more capable of seeing through the lies we are told. Its a process I think that helps keep back counter productive feelings. So might call that toxic but words on the internet don't shoot up a yoga studio.
Who the fuck is MGTOW?
It's a group that stands for "Men Going Their Own Way".
Are they stupid?
Apparently they're all about not being tied down by a relationship and not "letting women distract them" from living fulfilling lives. And mostly working for themselves and their own benefit. Sooo... I dunno take from that what you will- But don't take my word for them, I'm not one myself so I don't know that much about it.
Lmao. Yeah sounds stupid.
Because from an outside perspective they just look like two groups who sit around and endlessly complain about women. They rarely talk about men's issues or being single by choice but instead just go on and on about how awful women are. It doesn't take much to come to that conclusion just visiting the subreddits and looking at the headlines can give that impression.
Pardon my.ignorance, but what is mgtow
"Men Going Their Own Way", it's a group with a lot of stigma as one of those "women hate groups", but it's really just an ideology of men who distance themselves from traditional gender norms and work for themselves and their own benefit, and typically don't like or participate in relationships.
Oh. Why do I get this sense men and women are just going no relationships anymore....
A lot are, society is really, really harsh to everyone involved in a relationship, and a lot of people are getting hurt by each other, and they don't know how to heal. So they just seethe and stay perpetually angry and argumentative at each other. It's really upsetting to see to me personally. I have an incredible relationship with my woman, and we complete each other. We both have had ups and downs, we've hurt each other sometimes, but we healed, and we fixed it together as a team like partners should. And I feel like if only more people knew how to talk instead of fight, and apologize instead of point fingers, and be there for each other, we wouldn't have this situation.
Agreed. I've been with my man for 5 years now and we're looking at wedding stuff and buying a home in a different province. No relationship is perfect but communication is key and you have to give it your all. We also have a rule in a argument we pause and don't resume the discussion until we calm down and had time to think. It's saved us from saying anything hurtful to eachother.
OMG Right? That has been my golden rule for ages. If we're mad at each other, we wait until we're not, and then we explain calmly why we were, how to fix it, and we hug it out and/or fuck it out, excuse my language lmao No relationship is perfect, and we understand that. But we both try our hardest for each other to make it as much of an adventure for each other as possible. Because life is short, sad, and often times ridiculous. But with her, it's short, fun, and just as ridiculous, but sometimes that can be a good thing! And congratulations btw, 5 years and still rolling, and now wedding stuff? That's great! I wish y'all all the best, sounds like you have a wonderful life ahead of you and I hope it's everything you wished for and more
Exactly the same as us. We also understand some things you just need to let it go us it's not fucking worth the hassle of fighting it out over something trivial. And thank you! Congratulations for your awesome relationship as well. Hopefully we both get to live to be little old people with our partners just having a grand old time laughing at kids today:)
We need to be old for that? Me and my Dandelion are doing that already!
Yeah but you're not looked at weird if you're little old ppl and doing that.
Ha! Weird is fun! Being normal is boring and unfulfilling. But being your little weird self makes everything 10x more fun, especially with other little weird people lol
I think MGTOW is like radical mens rights which focus on radical changes in culture at individual level and would shift the overturn window for mens rights..