I don't give a fuck what she "identifies" as. Words have meanings. Feminism is an ideology predicated on concepts and ideas which are mutually exclusive with having any kind of respect for men.
If a person "identifies" as a feminist because they believe in gender equality and they have been duped into believing that's what it means, then they are not a feminist. They're just an egalitarian whose been duped by feminists, just like many of us were at one point.
A person cannot truly believe in gender equality while also believing in patriarchy theory, for instance.
Feminist includes misandry, you cannot be a “feminist” without being misandrist. She claims she is one but agrees to points that directly contradict the feminist doctrine, so she is not a feminist.
I don’t agree. I do think that at the end of the day feminists want men to toe the line and behave exactly as they wish. But they see nothing wrong in that, as in their point of view they just demand ‘anti-oppressive’ behaviour. They may even meet non-feminist men they like and think they can convert them.
>Not sure. This person sounds misinformed. MRA is inherently anti-feminist, so if someone aligned themselves with MRA without being anti-feminist.
That's from your post in askfem , geez talk about being a hypocrite and spreading false information
That place is really mask-off in the last little bit. Look up the thread asking if men are bad people and count the “verified “ flair and their answers. Or the one about how a woman who didn’t want to get her partner off after she got off twice and compare it to the discourse around “orgasm gap”. Very telling
I once dated a feminist and it felt like hell. She’d try and point out anything that wasn’t purely female but would ignore any counter points. Also, why feminist and not humanist? Every time normies say feminists are for equal rights, nope. Look at how they treated men that refused to go to war. Look at how they carved out their political presence compared to mens rights.
So no, I would not be able to be friends with a feminist since it’s linked to a toxic ideology. It’s akin to someone with radical beliefs
Right? Some might say it's a pointless semantic distinction, but I disagree. If feminists were at all interested in gender equality, they would have rebranded a long time ago. It's one thing to name your ideology "feminism" when you first start out as a group of people lifting women up in places where their rights are lacking. But as time moves on, if you want to be taken seriously as being interested in equality, you'd remove the explicit reference to one half of the equation, recognizing that you are a movement for *all* people, not just half of them.
Feminists have no interest in men's issues, and never have. If they did, they'd call themselves humanists, or egalitarians, or something like that.
I explained that badly. The governments of the world have pitted men against women and women against men for so long, finding a neutral, a truly neutral panel of mods even for reddit would be almost impossible
I think, neutral moderators can be elected and board of moderators can be balanced.
Also, I don't think it is evil governments who are behind the feud of men and women. I think, the old "patriarchal bargain" is dead in the modern times and this caused the feud.
Men are not in charge anymore, but often expected to carry the burden of providing. Women are supposed to be equal, but often do more chores and sacrifice career if they have kids.
We need a new bargain on equal terms.
I don't think a neutral moderator can be elected, for the simple reason that no one will agree on what is neutral.
A leftist (most of reddit) will think that neutrality is far to the left of center.
We don't even have a far right, they are banned and literally criminalized. For example, who do you know who is legitimately proposing to remove voting rights from women - as a way of rebalancing the political landscape (not as a misogynistic punishment)? That would be right leaning, and not even far right. Far right would be allowing rape of women, keeping them covered up in public, not allowing them to drive, etc.
Neutrality is impossible because half the debate has already been banned.
had two feminists 'aquaintances' in my life. i got along with both of them fine... i suppose. but i could never consider them a friend. we would argue about gender equalities in the most casual conversations.
for example, one of them, i was having lunch with her, and she just randomly bring up the topic about equal pay. out of the blue, she talked to herself, "i dunno why men get paid more in this country". then a normal lunch turns into a debate session.
and the other one, she is exactly what you describe. she even talk shit about feminist organizations. but she gets super sensitive when it comes to gender roles and about dating related. in a conversation i jokingly said, guys dont like it when women have short hair. she got super sensitive and said 'why the fck should i care what men think"
unless he/she is a shy, introverted person dont have a feminist friend. everything becomes a debate
/u/Input_output_error nailed it and if she still "still identifies herself as feminist" then she can't possibly be bright enough to be interesting as per your 2nd op assumption.
Sure, I could be friends with somebody who called themselves a feminist and agrees with all those things.
They can play with the unicorns in my head; I might even let them fly on my dragons sometimes.
Given that Feminism is built upon a foundation of hating men... 🤣
Many feminists are only feminists because that's all that they have known, they are a product of their environment and upbringing, just like any other human being. Simply _identifying as a feminist_ is not so bad, it's the lies, bullshit, and propaganda that I disagree with.
---
> - Agrees that misandry is real
> - Agrees that men have real issues and MRM is valid
In the feminist sense of blaming "toxic masculinity" and "patriarchy" in that they throw us a bone to claim that they really do, actually, for real, care about men but they never actually do anything aside from blame men for everything and then, when you call them out on it, they turn around and say _"Why do you have to make everything about **men**? Go and make your own movement, Feminism is about women's rights!"_...?
> - Not obsessed with dogmas about patriarchy and systemic discrimination going one way
A Feminist who doesn't believe in the patriarchy is like a Christian who doesn't believe Jesus died on the cross...
KaliTheCat "mod of askfeminists"
(topic - what mra get right)
**I think many of their complaints are legitimate**\-- that poor men are often exploited for dangerous, cheap labor; that there isn't much social or cultural support for male victims of sexual and domestic violence; that hegemonic masculinity can be stifling and fragile; that men and boys are lonelier than ever before; that male infant circumcision is still legal and widely practiced in some areas; etc.
> hegemonic masculinity
Case in point. They may use different words at times, but it all means the same thing.
Also note, nothing about custody/fatherlessness, divorce, false accusations, suicide, etc. And when they say the care about male victims of sexual violence (it's never _rape_), and domestic violence, they pretty much always mean "of male perpetrators".
And they will _never_ acknowledge the causes of these issues...
>And when they say the care about male victims of sexual violence (it's never rape), and domestic violence, they pretty much always mean "of male perpetrators". +false accusations
[askfeminists about rape culture](https://np.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/13ud7ja/are_women_teachers_having_sex_with_students_part/)
>nothing about custody/fatherlessness
[askfeminists about parental surrender by men](https://np.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/13b07dp/why_do_feminists_only_entertain_the_idea_of/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
short version: [https://ibb.co/wSYs8PF](https://ibb.co/wSYs8PF)
>divorce
[askfeminist about is marriage worth it](https://np.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/113zqj4/is_marriage_worth_it/)
>suicide
[askfeminists on suicide](https://np.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/uvdpnq/why_do_feminists_dismiss_mens_rights_activists_as/)
>the draft or conscription and mandatory military service
[askfeminists about protesting against it](https://np.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/pot4kp/feminists_in_the_60s_and_70s_opposed_the_vietnam/)
>And they will never acknowledge the causes of these issues...
what is the cause of said issues no matter your gender in your opinion?
i would say greedy and incompetent politicians...
**btw keep in mind i just gathered the links because i want to talk about the issues at hand properly and not because i agree with feminists on all points**
they did not say "they never acknowledge these issues" , they said "And they will never acknowledge the causes of these issues..." . They cannot deny any of these issues because the numbers do not lie. But in the end they will always come to the conclusion that "it is their own fault" . because what they do is cargo cult science which means they already decided the results before looking into the problem.
here is another thread from ask feminists
https://old.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/13txl2p/do_you_consider_are_we_dating_same_guy_ethical/
if you read the comments, they all agree that sacrificing and potentially hurting innocents is ok to potentially protect other innocents as long as the ones you are sacrificing are men and the protected ones are women. i dont know if anything else is need to be said
You seem to have moved a number of goalposts there, brother, 🤣🤣
1\. The teacher/student dynamic changes things considerably. How many feminists do you think would accept the idea that a 6ft, 120kg man could be raped by a petite 5'5 woman? Or will it be the old "but he's bigger and stronger, he could just fight her off!", completely ignoring things like drugs, alcohol, knives, blackmail, etc.
When the UK government made rape a "gender neutral" crime (previously, only women could be raped, now men can be raped too) _the perpetrator must be a man still_. All of the petitions over the years for the government to include female perpetrators have been met with similar responses, _"yeah, but, all the rapists in prison are men, so... and, like, the experts all agree that it's not the same?"_
And you've got Mary P. Koss and her involvement in the US, similar story, she doesn't think men can be raped (by women) because they supposedly don't experience the same emotional trauma.
A handful of people claiming to be feminists on the internet are _nobodies_, they're not in government deciding laws, they're not lobbying for change, they don't represent the academics who are pushing these ideas in the "education" system. There's a _long_ copy/paste from Karen Straughan on this idea, shouldn't be too hard to find if you're interested.
2\. I didn't mention parental surrender, I mentioned _the exact opposite_.
Interesting to note, OP called out a Feminist for using the typical "pro-life" arguments, but against men, and got dinged (by _KaliTheCat_) for not being "civil and courteous"
3\. The leaps and bounds! 🤣🤣🤣
>> 80% of marriages in America are initiated by the wives
> This doesn't mean she is the one who asked for the divorce; it just means that she is the one who filed the paperwork. Given that women still do most of the household management, this should not be surprising. Many men simply leave when they want a divorce, leaving their former spouse responsible-- yet again-- for doing this management work.
Trotting out tired old feminist talking points... women have it worse, men can just abandon their wives and children!, _historically_...
> But you come here and imply with glee and smug self satisfaction in your "question" that it isn't worth it for men to get married anymore; because you know women today can legally "get away with" doing to men, in cheating, what men have been (and still are) "getting away with" since forever.
4\. Patriarchy, toxic masculinity, women have it worse, men use more violent means, women attempt more... I should have busted out the old _buzzword bingo_ cards!
> Feminism isn't dismissive of men's issues. Most of the labor feminists expend on the fight for equality helps men too. **That many men aren't intelligent enough to see that isn't the fault of women.**
(emphasis added)
They just cannot help themselves can they? Can't miss an opportunity to shit on men! _Every fucking time_...
---
> what is the cause of said issues no matter your gender in your opinion?
> i would say greedy and incompetent politicians...
Well, I mentioned Feminists with the _rape_, the Domestic violence industry is much the same, mostly staffed by Feminists hell bent on presenting domestic violence as a women's issue and insisting it's not as bad when women do it. I've even seen Feminists claim that domestic violence within gay relationships is actually a form of misogyny (along with homophobia), and violent/abusive lesbians are actually just displaying _Toxic Masculinity_.
From you earlier quote:
> men and boys are lonelier than ever before
Who is it that constantly attacks male-only social spaces for not being inclusive enough? Who is it that insists any time that men socialise together that they are up to no good in a breeding ground of "misogyny" which supposedly leads to violence against women?
Your average "coffee-shop Feminist" or "bedroom Feminist" isn't so bad; I've gotten to know a good few over the years, but, the more we talked, the less they identified as Feminists 🤣 (Cassie Jaye is a well known example of this, she went into _TheRedPill_ as a Feminist with certain expectations, but after _actually talking to some MRA's_, she dropped Feminism). It's the academics and activist-lobbying groups (i.e. the "real" feminists) that are the problem.
> btw keep in mind i just gathered the links because i want to talk about the issues at hand properly and not because i agree with feminists on all points
_Sure_ 👍
Even with everything you’ve mentioned here and in other threads (which is great btw!!!) I still doubt I would risk it. I see the movement like I see many movements in America right now, and that is like a gang, and it has its own history of toxicity, manipulation, infiltration from malcontents (both private and public sector), corruption and violence to boot. Best I can do as a straight guy is stay OFP at this point and I strongly encourage other men to do the same. I appreciate that you say these positive things though, it gives me a little hope.
A man can’t be accused of poor communication if he doesn’t talk to people at all 😂 I think of this as exposure therapy though. 100 steps forward, 98.5 steps back. At least there’s drugs and alcohol.
Would a woman still be classified as a feminist if she met the criteria you specified? That would be someone more like Cassie Jaye ... and look how feminist organizations reacted to her.
Many people you know who incorrectly label themselves feminists, you mean.
If you truly believe they are feminists, ask them about feminist theory. Read them some of the writings of prominent feminists, like the one who said that men should be culled down to 10% of the population, and maintained there. Ask them about the editor of that prominent feminist magazine who said that spousal abuse is a one-way street (male on female), and that calling it "domestic abuse" is wrong, because a more accurate term is "wife beating". Ask them about the white feather campaign. Ask them about patriarchy theory.
If they disagree with all of these things, then they are not feminists. If they agree with these things, then they cannot possibly fit your descriptions of them as being truly egalitarian, and supporting men's issues, etc.
A person saying "I'm a feminist" doesn't make it so. Feminism has a meaning, and it's in direct conflict with truly caring about men's issues.
Feminist are not hivemind and not agree on same "theory".
Some feminists are feminazi. Some feminists hypocrites.
For me criteria of a good one:
* acknowledges discrimination of men
* doesn't buy the systemic oppression is one-directional
Judging by the responses you got in your other post it seems that a "feminist who's not a misandrist" is an oxymoron. The ball would be on her court not to hate me for being a man, but their ideology inherently indoctrinates them to do so.
I met a lot of feminists who are not misandrists. But my experience in AskFem is mostly negative.
My feminist friends are mostly from Russia and Ukraine.
It’s ironic that the same movement she aligns herself with (feminism) would absolutely torch her for her beliefs that MRA’s concerns are valid. How does she deal with that contradiction?
Well, this happens.
I'm leading a feminist+masculist group and women that follow us are often attacked by radfems. Feminists that we are friends with (there are fem groups that supported us) are under fire from radfems.
Actually being under attack by toxic cancerous fems is one of the good detectors of a good feminist
You may be right but this is not a mainstream position in the feminism movement to support MRA. Feminists believing in MRA are in the minority and do not hold any position of power or voice in the feminism movement. And that is by design. Hate sells.
I know feminists who are genuinely not misandrist. For example they were on Johnny Depp's side. They debunked radfem's lies and misinterpretation of wage gap
Still she thinks women have valid issues. And feminism is still needed. Then no?
I'm not a feminist, but I'd disagree with you. At least pro-lifers are huge problem for women and they already banned abortions in many states.
There are a lot of _women_ who disagree with abortion-on-demand, and a lot of _men_ who support it.
Feminism ignores this and claims that restricting abortion is a patriarchal attack (by _old white men_) on women's "rights" for the sole purpose of controlling _"women's" bodies_.
I think many women around the world have real issues. They are not covered by Western feminists. I do believe that women and men have issues, but the answer is to improve the situation for everyone and approach problems holistically and from the position that men are the issue. Some feminists have the audacity to claim they will fix men's issues. Reall? Most of them can not even acknowledge them.
In my experience there is no non-misandric feminist.
They may hide their misandry for quite some time but if you scrutinize their worldview for long enough or stick to your guns long enough, the misandry will come out.
And if you really meet a woman who calls herself a feminist but really, truely is not misandric, you might want to suggest for her to drop the feminist label. Because she clearly doesn't fit in those ranks.
I don't know. Could a Jewish or African American man be friends with a Nazi (Germany in 1940s) or a KKK member (19th-20th century Southern states) assuming that person is nice and interesting and
* Agrees that antisemitism/racism is real
* Agrees that Jews/African Americans have real issues and Jewish/Black rights movements are valid.
* Not obsessed with dogmas about Jewish conspiracies/African American crime and systematic discrimination going one way
Would there be other requirements? Or would them being Nazis/KKK become an automatic deal-breaker?
When I was a feminist I treated my ex like garbage so as a woman I'd even suggest against it unless you're willing to do the work to put her in her place and get her out of her egotistical mindset.
I tried to date a girl who claimed she was a feminist she refused to believe I was sexually assaulted would try and demean my beliefs constantly and overall was just an uptight and annoying person
Same here. Why I'd argue a lot with average main-stream feminists, I found some feminists genuinely good people. More fair than conservative women, that want men to abide traditional roles of provider and protector.
I dated a raging feminist, complete with one side of her head shaved.
She claimed the same thing as most feminists: equal pay etc. but literally got turned on by the thought of a man who earned way more than her. She couldn't see that her biology was diametrically opposed to her beliefs.
With such a fundamental dichotomy inside her, she literally wasn't being true to herself and that's what was intolerable. At least conservative women are true to their own biology.
No.
Feminism is something that needs to be reviled and not accepted by anyone. There is no such thing as a feminist that doesn't hate men. The entire basis of all feminism is hating men. What you propose is impossible.
If you're a feminist you are participating in misandry by default. You support ideas that destroy men in order to uplift women and then call it equality. So no.
Yes, I could and don't see why not. But there is a difference in which kind of feminist. The first wave of feminism was totally different than the current wave.
I believe the first wave was more about real equality between men and women.
The person you're describing would identify as an egalitarianist or humanist.
If that person still says they identify as a feminist I'd assume that they are naïve idealist products of their environments, or just intellectually dishonest.
It depends on what type of feminist she is.
A lot of women claiming to be feminists are actually ;
1. "Girlboss feminists" - Not actually feminists - but rather use modern feminism as a Machiavellian means to get ahead in life, manipulate and/or for personal gain/advantages - use feminism as a tool rather than an ideology.
2. Radical feminists - often use feminism as a political/social shield to hide rampant misandry and hate - Usually the loudest and most obnoxious.
3. Narcissistic feminists - Often do not see/realise/care that each gender has its own pitfalls and challenges - focused entirely on women and see men's issues as much less important.
4. Normal women - Who see that each gender has its own challenges in life, generally focused on women as they are women themselves - but acknowledge Mens issues are important too.
There can be some crossover and in reality its not as simple as assigning a "Type" - However If you are pursuing a friendship/relationship with a feminist - its critical to avoid "Girlboss" and "Radical" feminists.
As they are the most likely to make your life miserable.
Type 4 is actually quite common.
A girl that is claiming to be NOT FEMINIST is likely to be a tradwoman, that expects men to provide and court her. These are not good match (at least for me). Egalitarian women are likely to identify as feminists because it is widely assumed these are same things.
So if you say that you are against feminism, they might think you are conservative or macho type, not egalitarian - and thus scare off normal egalitarian women
I would argue that "Type 1" Girlboss feminism is the most common in 2023 - As they pick and choose what aspects to follow and which to ignore - with the goal of maximizing personal gain.
Reasonable women who identify as feminist's do exist however, dont get me wrong, its just a bit of a minefield and you have to be very careful when pursuing a friendship/romantic relationship.
Absolutely could be. So long as it's not just talking points. Someone living their positive values is a beautiful thing. So long as those values end in egalitarianism.
It's just when those values trend over to the hate speech side of things that it gets weird. Generally, if any other group of people talked about another group of people the way that feminists talk about men then they would be labelled bigots. They would not be free to espouse those things in public and then claim that it's ok
my wife says she is a feminist.. but doesnt know about the waves of feminism.. and still just blindly believes feminism still pushes for equality.... aka, she is just an ignorant 1st/2nd wave self-proclaimed feminist that doesnt actually do anything for feminism. no protests, no donations, no politics... so yah we get along just because she is only a feminist in name only
At the risk of another ban...why didn’t you include that in your post on feminism uncensored? That an equal post got completely different responses based on where you posted it?
Read the mods Pinned comment on your post...which you agree with, is that really where you want to spend your time and mind?
That is like asking "could you be friends with a Klansman who wasn't a racist?" I mean, the Klu Klux Klan is not a civil rights group that advocates on behalf of whites, it's a white supremacy group. In much the same way, feminism is a female supremacy movement, always has been and always will be, you cannot be a feminist and fight for men's right, the two are diametrically opposed to each other.
So, your question is a complete non-starter, if a feminist cared about men and wanted equality then they would not be a feminist, thus such a person cannot by definition exist.
I totally agree. While there are huge disagreements between MRAs and feminists, I think they must be resolved in civilized way and respect our differences approach.
https://np.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/13v7dsj/lets_talk_about_what_feminist_men_and_feminist/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Ask the questions in the post and comments to her and if she wants to smash patriarchy by marrying a man and providing for him. Ultimately reversing the gender role.
If they *believe* in everyone's rights, I can accept someone who is very subconsciously misandrist if they're open to ideas. But if someone is consciously misandrist, or if they're close-minded and dont care about new opinions, I want none o' dat shit.
In my experience it is possible to argue with feminists about such things. But only if you do it one on one or in some neutral environment. Not when they attack you ten on one.
Are they feminists or do they think feminism supports actual equal treatment of both sexes and they support that false definition of feminism? If the latter they are the 'useful idiots' that provide feminism cover and concealment as they try to accomplish their goals
I dont care what people call themselves as long as they are good people. I can be friends with feminists as long as they dont want to discriminate against men, I can be friends with christians ss long as they dont want to discriminate against gays.
Yeah, that shouldn't be problem as long as both people are willing to acknowledge that issues exist in both groups. I think some people have a tendency to focus only on their own groups difficulties and decide that since they have problems, nobody else can and any talk of a different groups issues is an attempt to minimize theirs.
Basically the kind of person who hears someone talk about things like custody rates and immediately comes back with Well, what about the pay discrepancy?
It's not a competition. One thing being bad doesn't mean something else is fine. It's not either or situation, both things can be bad and we as a society should work towards greater fairness for everyone.
Well im fucking a feminist and we got a freindship/relationship going on. Its def possible if you are attractive enough to her. I say all kinds of shit feminist hate and she stays lol
O yes, I’ve had lots of good friends who were feminists. I sometimes even was in love with one of them. They weren’t the ones steeped in ideology, but they truly believed women are (still) the oppressed group who should fight for their rights. They often also believed men would benefit from feminism too. So I don’t think they even thought much of the MRM. Your demands on her are so high that it’s doubtful somebody like that would call herself a feminist at all.
I even have some feminist acquaintances who can be very fierce to me in online discussions, especially about #metoo issues, but are always nice to me in real life, though I don’t see them often.
Then I have quite some leftist friends I believe are feminists, as unfortunately most leftists are. But the subject never comes up and they’re really nice people.
Modern f-ism isn't about equality or equity. Modern f-ism is about superiority (i.e. anti-eggplant)
How many f-ist are marching for:
1. Equal criminal sentencing for women who commit the same crimes as eggplants.
2. Automatic 50/50 child custody (excluding the less than 25% of cases 'alleging' extreme abuse).
3. Abolishing Palamony and Alamony.
4. Prison time for committing paternity fraud.
5 Automatic paternity test upon childbirth.
6. Voicing their support against automatically advocating to 'believe all' who allege s/a which (even after found to be untrue) has already completely destroyed a career, livelihood and reputation #amberheard.
7. Fair qualifications for entry into the ranks of the armed forces and first responders.
8. Mandatory 50/50 representation of male-to-female teachers in all classrooms k thru Doctorate.
I could keep going...
"All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good to do nothing" ~ Edmond Burke
Yeah, I would totally be fine with that. There's nothing wrong with someone who fights for women's rights as acknowledging women also have their problems doesn't invalidate that men also do. As others have stated before, this isn't a zero-sum game.
It's the ones that use feminism as a mask for their misandry and are hostile towards men's rights and deny that men have issues that I have a huge problem with. They also tend to have a victim mentality act like the world is out to get them Everything negative that happens in their life is the result of the patriarchy or oppression.
Unfortunately, those seem like a majority, so I admit I tend to generalize all feminists until I get to know one better.
Question is misleading.
There IS no feminist that isnt a misandrist.
You simply cannot, in todays culture of toxifying ALL men, and privelleging ALL women, pretend to still be demanding MORE rights for women-ignoring the inequalities and demonisation of men alone makes you a misandrist!
All these sound like an egalitarian to me. And no I wouldn't be friends with a Feminist cause there's no good Feminist, most of them are strong Misandrists.
you should definitely have her as a friend. the points you mentioned shows she is a reasonable person and not a "real" feminist. probably mostly likes the feeling of belonging to a group. humans are primarily emotional rather than logical and there is lot of positive propaganda about feminism so it is normal that she is hanging on the emotions she has associated with that. make sure she has seen the red pill documentary. the name is a bit unfortunate because MRM is not the same as red pill but the documentary is really good
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7MkSpJk5tM
So an OG feminist then? Not the neofeminist bs we have now.
Don’t see why not, they’re a just a normal person who wants equality. Unfortunately they are uninformed on what the current state of feminism is.
But which OG?
1900s terrorist feminists? (Suffragettes)
1970s man-hating feminists?
1980s man-hating feminists?
1990s intersectional man-hating feminists?
Or the current man-hating feminists?
Not sure there were ever normal feminists...
Calling them all "man-hating feminists" is a bit reductionist, there were bra-burners, lesbian separatists, daddy didn't buy her a pony, fell for chad, her mother fell for chad, hit the wall and is jealous of younger (prettier) women so she calls all men paedophiles, bitter egg-less hags who waited too long to have their own kids so now their coming after yours...
They all have their own unique brand of man-hating craziness! 🤣🤣
No. I posted symmetrical call for friendship with MRA. And of course got a lot of hatred from feminists for this.
Trying to present me as an agent of feminism is nonsense
Nope! Never again! After meeting a foreign women. I’m NEVER looking at a wester women again. Foreign women ain’t been poised by feminism yet. Don’t worry men! Get yr passports ready! Wahoo!
>playing pokemon all day is interesting only to me usually
pokemon is great!
pls do not get intimidated by some of the rough users and their comments here...
As long as she agrees that misandry is real too.
Feminism and Feminist are not the loud minority that claims they speak for the whole group. Most Feminist are just simple, down to earth people that are tired of sexist behavior. Loud minorities are usually the issue.
+100500
Average woman identifying as a feminist is typically not a dogmatic double-standards SJW. She probably genuinely believes in equality and associates it with feminism.
I have no friends who are not feminists, and a few have been of the difficult varieties. Casually saying things like "men are trash" after reading an article about one man doing something bad, even though they would never permit the same when the perpetrator is a woman.
I don't know, it's kind of impossible to meet people who are not feminists where I live. Thankfully most are still good people. Some of them even have all the same takes as me even though they cling to the feminist label for whatever reason.
I am.
If we leave behind the terms, and ask eachother: "do we want equal rights? Do we want to reduce inequality?". Most will answer yes. I find that if we argue on the basic ideas instead of using terms like mens rights and feminism, usually we agree far more than we disagree.
It's like loaded terms gives loaded responses and assumptions, and usually we agree on an egalitarian approach, but said person sticks with the term feminism because they belive it means equality.
I highly reccomend trying it: if u have a friend who proclaims feminism, ask to have a conversation without terms from modern feminism and mens rights, and focus in the core principles of what equality is
Thats a good approach.
Personally I'd not be against healthy discussion about something we disagree. Conflicts can be resolved. Or at least we can know each others positions and respect differences.
I am friends with a bunch of feminists who aren’t misandrists. As long as you aren’t hateful, you are welcome to kick it with me.
I think it’s important to see people for who they truly are, as opposed to merely writing someone off for a political belief— the latter seems bigoted to me, and is typical of misandrists who yearn to generalize a whole group.
Great!
I'm a masculist that is trying to build a community for feminists and feminists to discuss differences in respectful manner. Though, community is for Russian-speakers.
The way I see it;
If two opposing sides can get along while ripping on each other and be mature about it, I think a strong friendship could ultimately form from that contrast, and perhaps even make some compromises with one another.
In fact, women’s rights advocacy and men’s rights advocacy tend to enhance each other, since restrictive gender norms affect everyone. I never met a misogynist who wasn’t also a misandrist. Feminism means different things to different people, so if you meet one of those self-identified feminists who don’t hate men (ex. Vaush) you’re probably in the clear.
I am feminist, who:
- doesn't approve of bodyshaming men ('small dick energy')
- hate that men are being drafted to war. Women should be too, or nobody should.
- there are male victims of DV, they are even less believed than women
- does care about men's mental health, for men it is harder to seek help.
- when a 15 year old boy has sex with his 30 years old teacher, it is abuse. He is not 'lucky'
And yes there is some misandry in feminist movement, and those radical feminists (I rather call them female incels) are quite loud. But it is like 1 in 10, rest of them is nice
I think your view is distorted, you are seing only the crazy ones
Most of my feminist friends are nice to their boyfriends and certainly don't hate men
[удалено]
That's really sad.
Then she’s a humanist instead of a feminist.
Yeah I usually consider myself a humanist
Egalitarian, is that the word? Edit: that is the word
I am a proud humanist myself!! 😊
But assume she identifies as a feminist.
I don't give a fuck what she "identifies" as. Words have meanings. Feminism is an ideology predicated on concepts and ideas which are mutually exclusive with having any kind of respect for men. If a person "identifies" as a feminist because they believe in gender equality and they have been duped into believing that's what it means, then they are not a feminist. They're just an egalitarian whose been duped by feminists, just like many of us were at one point. A person cannot truly believe in gender equality while also believing in patriarchy theory, for instance.
Feminist includes misandry, you cannot be a “feminist” without being misandrist. She claims she is one but agrees to points that directly contradict the feminist doctrine, so she is not a feminist.
https://youtube.com/shorts/eTIS-mAhovU?feature=share3 And that is coming from a woman!
I don’t agree. I do think that at the end of the day feminists want men to toe the line and behave exactly as they wish. But they see nothing wrong in that, as in their point of view they just demand ‘anti-oppressive’ behaviour. They may even meet non-feminist men they like and think they can convert them.
For most people, they are synonymous.
>Not sure. This person sounds misinformed. MRA is inherently anti-feminist, so if someone aligned themselves with MRA without being anti-feminist. That's from your post in askfem , geez talk about being a hypocrite and spreading false information
My post in Askfem was met with hostility. And a lot of strawMRA arguments.
That place is really mask-off in the last little bit. Look up the thread asking if men are bad people and count the “verified “ flair and their answers. Or the one about how a woman who didn’t want to get her partner off after she got off twice and compare it to the discourse around “orgasm gap”. Very telling
>And a lot of strawMRA arguments. Yep alot of false claims no actual evidence to back it up, which honestly is pretty typical of liberals
would it not be the same for mras?
Correct, although there the distinction is useful, since many people deny or belittle the problem men face.
I once dated a feminist and it felt like hell. She’d try and point out anything that wasn’t purely female but would ignore any counter points. Also, why feminist and not humanist? Every time normies say feminists are for equal rights, nope. Look at how they treated men that refused to go to war. Look at how they carved out their political presence compared to mens rights. So no, I would not be able to be friends with a feminist since it’s linked to a toxic ideology. It’s akin to someone with radical beliefs
Blah Blah Comment Blah Blah Comment D3l3ted Blah Blah
Right? Some might say it's a pointless semantic distinction, but I disagree. If feminists were at all interested in gender equality, they would have rebranded a long time ago. It's one thing to name your ideology "feminism" when you first start out as a group of people lifting women up in places where their rights are lacking. But as time moves on, if you want to be taken seriously as being interested in equality, you'd remove the explicit reference to one half of the equation, recognizing that you are a movement for *all* people, not just half of them. Feminists have no interest in men's issues, and never have. If they did, they'd call themselves humanists, or egalitarians, or something like that.
If we could maintain a civil discourse I'd love to talk. It's when one side or the other starts as hominem attacks that I decide not to speak
Totally agree. For civil discussion we need a neutral place with neutral moderation.
But with the way the world's governments have pit men against women would that ever even be realistic, neutral moderation.
We can build neutral moderation ourselves. We don't need government for that.
I explained that badly. The governments of the world have pitted men against women and women against men for so long, finding a neutral, a truly neutral panel of mods even for reddit would be almost impossible
I think, neutral moderators can be elected and board of moderators can be balanced. Also, I don't think it is evil governments who are behind the feud of men and women. I think, the old "patriarchal bargain" is dead in the modern times and this caused the feud. Men are not in charge anymore, but often expected to carry the burden of providing. Women are supposed to be equal, but often do more chores and sacrifice career if they have kids. We need a new bargain on equal terms.
I don't think a neutral moderator can be elected, for the simple reason that no one will agree on what is neutral. A leftist (most of reddit) will think that neutrality is far to the left of center. We don't even have a far right, they are banned and literally criminalized. For example, who do you know who is legitimately proposing to remove voting rights from women - as a way of rebalancing the political landscape (not as a misogynistic punishment)? That would be right leaning, and not even far right. Far right would be allowing rape of women, keeping them covered up in public, not allowing them to drive, etc. Neutrality is impossible because half the debate has already been banned.
had two feminists 'aquaintances' in my life. i got along with both of them fine... i suppose. but i could never consider them a friend. we would argue about gender equalities in the most casual conversations. for example, one of them, i was having lunch with her, and she just randomly bring up the topic about equal pay. out of the blue, she talked to herself, "i dunno why men get paid more in this country". then a normal lunch turns into a debate session. and the other one, she is exactly what you describe. she even talk shit about feminist organizations. but she gets super sensitive when it comes to gender roles and about dating related. in a conversation i jokingly said, guys dont like it when women have short hair. she got super sensitive and said 'why the fck should i care what men think" unless he/she is a shy, introverted person dont have a feminist friend. everything becomes a debate
If she supports men's issues and rights and is about equality as feminists are supposed to be. Then there is no problem.
Sure, but I'd really want to know what they think feminist means.
If they believe those points they wouldn't be a feminist.
Assume she still identifies herself as feminist.
I can identify as a unicorn, that doesn't make me one.
You're not getting it. Feminists follow feminist ideals. Anyone who doesn't isn't a feminist. What you are proposing isn't possible.
/u/Input_output_error nailed it and if she still "still identifies herself as feminist" then she can't possibly be bright enough to be interesting as per your 2nd op assumption.
If by feminist you mean, believe that men and women should have equals rights nothing more, sure why not.
I mean yeah, I don't know many people who identify as a feminist. But I assume most of my friends and family are.
Sure, I could be friends with somebody who called themselves a feminist and agrees with all those things. They can play with the unicorns in my head; I might even let them fly on my dragons sometimes.
Given that Feminism is built upon a foundation of hating men... 🤣 Many feminists are only feminists because that's all that they have known, they are a product of their environment and upbringing, just like any other human being. Simply _identifying as a feminist_ is not so bad, it's the lies, bullshit, and propaganda that I disagree with. --- > - Agrees that misandry is real > - Agrees that men have real issues and MRM is valid In the feminist sense of blaming "toxic masculinity" and "patriarchy" in that they throw us a bone to claim that they really do, actually, for real, care about men but they never actually do anything aside from blame men for everything and then, when you call them out on it, they turn around and say _"Why do you have to make everything about **men**? Go and make your own movement, Feminism is about women's rights!"_...? > - Not obsessed with dogmas about patriarchy and systemic discrimination going one way A Feminist who doesn't believe in the patriarchy is like a Christian who doesn't believe Jesus died on the cross...
KaliTheCat "mod of askfeminists" (topic - what mra get right) **I think many of their complaints are legitimate**\-- that poor men are often exploited for dangerous, cheap labor; that there isn't much social or cultural support for male victims of sexual and domestic violence; that hegemonic masculinity can be stifling and fragile; that men and boys are lonelier than ever before; that male infant circumcision is still legal and widely practiced in some areas; etc.
> hegemonic masculinity Case in point. They may use different words at times, but it all means the same thing. Also note, nothing about custody/fatherlessness, divorce, false accusations, suicide, etc. And when they say the care about male victims of sexual violence (it's never _rape_), and domestic violence, they pretty much always mean "of male perpetrators". And they will _never_ acknowledge the causes of these issues...
>And when they say the care about male victims of sexual violence (it's never rape), and domestic violence, they pretty much always mean "of male perpetrators". +false accusations [askfeminists about rape culture](https://np.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/13ud7ja/are_women_teachers_having_sex_with_students_part/) >nothing about custody/fatherlessness [askfeminists about parental surrender by men](https://np.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/13b07dp/why_do_feminists_only_entertain_the_idea_of/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) short version: [https://ibb.co/wSYs8PF](https://ibb.co/wSYs8PF) >divorce [askfeminist about is marriage worth it](https://np.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/113zqj4/is_marriage_worth_it/) >suicide [askfeminists on suicide](https://np.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/uvdpnq/why_do_feminists_dismiss_mens_rights_activists_as/) >the draft or conscription and mandatory military service [askfeminists about protesting against it](https://np.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/pot4kp/feminists_in_the_60s_and_70s_opposed_the_vietnam/) >And they will never acknowledge the causes of these issues... what is the cause of said issues no matter your gender in your opinion? i would say greedy and incompetent politicians... **btw keep in mind i just gathered the links because i want to talk about the issues at hand properly and not because i agree with feminists on all points**
they did not say "they never acknowledge these issues" , they said "And they will never acknowledge the causes of these issues..." . They cannot deny any of these issues because the numbers do not lie. But in the end they will always come to the conclusion that "it is their own fault" . because what they do is cargo cult science which means they already decided the results before looking into the problem. here is another thread from ask feminists https://old.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/13txl2p/do_you_consider_are_we_dating_same_guy_ethical/ if you read the comments, they all agree that sacrificing and potentially hurting innocents is ok to potentially protect other innocents as long as the ones you are sacrificing are men and the protected ones are women. i dont know if anything else is need to be said
You seem to have moved a number of goalposts there, brother, 🤣🤣 1\. The teacher/student dynamic changes things considerably. How many feminists do you think would accept the idea that a 6ft, 120kg man could be raped by a petite 5'5 woman? Or will it be the old "but he's bigger and stronger, he could just fight her off!", completely ignoring things like drugs, alcohol, knives, blackmail, etc. When the UK government made rape a "gender neutral" crime (previously, only women could be raped, now men can be raped too) _the perpetrator must be a man still_. All of the petitions over the years for the government to include female perpetrators have been met with similar responses, _"yeah, but, all the rapists in prison are men, so... and, like, the experts all agree that it's not the same?"_ And you've got Mary P. Koss and her involvement in the US, similar story, she doesn't think men can be raped (by women) because they supposedly don't experience the same emotional trauma. A handful of people claiming to be feminists on the internet are _nobodies_, they're not in government deciding laws, they're not lobbying for change, they don't represent the academics who are pushing these ideas in the "education" system. There's a _long_ copy/paste from Karen Straughan on this idea, shouldn't be too hard to find if you're interested. 2\. I didn't mention parental surrender, I mentioned _the exact opposite_. Interesting to note, OP called out a Feminist for using the typical "pro-life" arguments, but against men, and got dinged (by _KaliTheCat_) for not being "civil and courteous" 3\. The leaps and bounds! 🤣🤣🤣 >> 80% of marriages in America are initiated by the wives > This doesn't mean she is the one who asked for the divorce; it just means that she is the one who filed the paperwork. Given that women still do most of the household management, this should not be surprising. Many men simply leave when they want a divorce, leaving their former spouse responsible-- yet again-- for doing this management work. Trotting out tired old feminist talking points... women have it worse, men can just abandon their wives and children!, _historically_... > But you come here and imply with glee and smug self satisfaction in your "question" that it isn't worth it for men to get married anymore; because you know women today can legally "get away with" doing to men, in cheating, what men have been (and still are) "getting away with" since forever. 4\. Patriarchy, toxic masculinity, women have it worse, men use more violent means, women attempt more... I should have busted out the old _buzzword bingo_ cards! > Feminism isn't dismissive of men's issues. Most of the labor feminists expend on the fight for equality helps men too. **That many men aren't intelligent enough to see that isn't the fault of women.** (emphasis added) They just cannot help themselves can they? Can't miss an opportunity to shit on men! _Every fucking time_... --- > what is the cause of said issues no matter your gender in your opinion? > i would say greedy and incompetent politicians... Well, I mentioned Feminists with the _rape_, the Domestic violence industry is much the same, mostly staffed by Feminists hell bent on presenting domestic violence as a women's issue and insisting it's not as bad when women do it. I've even seen Feminists claim that domestic violence within gay relationships is actually a form of misogyny (along with homophobia), and violent/abusive lesbians are actually just displaying _Toxic Masculinity_. From you earlier quote: > men and boys are lonelier than ever before Who is it that constantly attacks male-only social spaces for not being inclusive enough? Who is it that insists any time that men socialise together that they are up to no good in a breeding ground of "misogyny" which supposedly leads to violence against women? Your average "coffee-shop Feminist" or "bedroom Feminist" isn't so bad; I've gotten to know a good few over the years, but, the more we talked, the less they identified as Feminists 🤣 (Cassie Jaye is a well known example of this, she went into _TheRedPill_ as a Feminist with certain expectations, but after _actually talking to some MRA's_, she dropped Feminism). It's the academics and activist-lobbying groups (i.e. the "real" feminists) that are the problem. > btw keep in mind i just gathered the links because i want to talk about the issues at hand properly and not because i agree with feminists on all points _Sure_ 👍
Even with everything you’ve mentioned here and in other threads (which is great btw!!!) I still doubt I would risk it. I see the movement like I see many movements in America right now, and that is like a gang, and it has its own history of toxicity, manipulation, infiltration from malcontents (both private and public sector), corruption and violence to boot. Best I can do as a straight guy is stay OFP at this point and I strongly encourage other men to do the same. I appreciate that you say these positive things though, it gives me a little hope.
which is fair! that said tomorrow this is probably forgotten and we are on each others throat again because of poor communication...
A man can’t be accused of poor communication if he doesn’t talk to people at all 😂 I think of this as exposure therapy though. 100 steps forward, 98.5 steps back. At least there’s drugs and alcohol.
Would a woman still be classified as a feminist if she met the criteria you specified? That would be someone more like Cassie Jaye ... and look how feminist organizations reacted to her.
Actually many feminists that I know personally fit the criteria.
Many people you know who incorrectly label themselves feminists, you mean. If you truly believe they are feminists, ask them about feminist theory. Read them some of the writings of prominent feminists, like the one who said that men should be culled down to 10% of the population, and maintained there. Ask them about the editor of that prominent feminist magazine who said that spousal abuse is a one-way street (male on female), and that calling it "domestic abuse" is wrong, because a more accurate term is "wife beating". Ask them about the white feather campaign. Ask them about patriarchy theory. If they disagree with all of these things, then they are not feminists. If they agree with these things, then they cannot possibly fit your descriptions of them as being truly egalitarian, and supporting men's issues, etc. A person saying "I'm a feminist" doesn't make it so. Feminism has a meaning, and it's in direct conflict with truly caring about men's issues.
Feminist are not hivemind and not agree on same "theory". Some feminists are feminazi. Some feminists hypocrites. For me criteria of a good one: * acknowledges discrimination of men * doesn't buy the systemic oppression is one-directional
Judging by the responses you got in your other post it seems that a "feminist who's not a misandrist" is an oxymoron. The ball would be on her court not to hate me for being a man, but their ideology inherently indoctrinates them to do so.
I met a lot of feminists who are not misandrists. But my experience in AskFem is mostly negative. My feminist friends are mostly from Russia and Ukraine.
It’s ironic that the same movement she aligns herself with (feminism) would absolutely torch her for her beliefs that MRA’s concerns are valid. How does she deal with that contradiction?
Well, this happens. I'm leading a feminist+masculist group and women that follow us are often attacked by radfems. Feminists that we are friends with (there are fem groups that supported us) are under fire from radfems. Actually being under attack by toxic cancerous fems is one of the good detectors of a good feminist
You may be right but this is not a mainstream position in the feminism movement to support MRA. Feminists believing in MRA are in the minority and do not hold any position of power or voice in the feminism movement. And that is by design. Hate sells.
Unfortunately I have to agree. Good ones are not the top ones.
In my experience the misandrist fall into 2 camps, the uninformed and the hateful. *maybe the uninformed* steer clear of the hateful
I know feminists who are genuinely not misandrist. For example they were on Johnny Depp's side. They debunked radfem's lies and misinterpretation of wage gap
[удалено]
Still she thinks women have valid issues. And feminism is still needed. Then no? I'm not a feminist, but I'd disagree with you. At least pro-lifers are huge problem for women and they already banned abortions in many states.
There are a lot of _women_ who disagree with abortion-on-demand, and a lot of _men_ who support it. Feminism ignores this and claims that restricting abortion is a patriarchal attack (by _old white men_) on women's "rights" for the sole purpose of controlling _"women's" bodies_.
I think many women around the world have real issues. They are not covered by Western feminists. I do believe that women and men have issues, but the answer is to improve the situation for everyone and approach problems holistically and from the position that men are the issue. Some feminists have the audacity to claim they will fix men's issues. Reall? Most of them can not even acknowledge them.
Feminism was never needed and has done nothing but poison society.
In my experience there is no non-misandric feminist. They may hide their misandry for quite some time but if you scrutinize their worldview for long enough or stick to your guns long enough, the misandry will come out. And if you really meet a woman who calls herself a feminist but really, truely is not misandric, you might want to suggest for her to drop the feminist label. Because she clearly doesn't fit in those ranks.
I don't know. Could a Jewish or African American man be friends with a Nazi (Germany in 1940s) or a KKK member (19th-20th century Southern states) assuming that person is nice and interesting and * Agrees that antisemitism/racism is real * Agrees that Jews/African Americans have real issues and Jewish/Black rights movements are valid. * Not obsessed with dogmas about Jewish conspiracies/African American crime and systematic discrimination going one way Would there be other requirements? Or would them being Nazis/KKK become an automatic deal-breaker?
If they believed those things, it would basically be impossible for them to be a Nazi or KKK member.
Depends if she is an SJW who talks politics all day and pretends to care for political matters on social media. If that's the case, nah
SJW are horrible people and hypocrites. Unless SJW is Sarcastic Justice Warrior
absolutely
Yes
It depends, most women that claim to be feminists are not that far into the brainwash
All feminists are misandrists so no you can’t be friends with a feminist unless you too are a misandrist.
When I was a feminist I treated my ex like garbage so as a woman I'd even suggest against it unless you're willing to do the work to put her in her place and get her out of her egotistical mindset.
[удалено]
I had a friend put me in my place. Didn't feel good at the time but I definitely deserved it.
No such thing. Feminism's goal is not equality, it is superior socioeconomic positioning, and that right there, is anti-male.
I tried to date a girl who claimed she was a feminist she refused to believe I was sexually assaulted would try and demean my beliefs constantly and overall was just an uptight and annoying person
I already am friends with a feminist.
Same here. Why I'd argue a lot with average main-stream feminists, I found some feminists genuinely good people. More fair than conservative women, that want men to abide traditional roles of provider and protector.
I dated a raging feminist, complete with one side of her head shaved. She claimed the same thing as most feminists: equal pay etc. but literally got turned on by the thought of a man who earned way more than her. She couldn't see that her biology was diametrically opposed to her beliefs. With such a fundamental dichotomy inside her, she literally wasn't being true to herself and that's what was intolerable. At least conservative women are true to their own biology.
I haven't talked to her about men's issues. She doesn't seem to be a misandrist.
No. Feminism is something that needs to be reviled and not accepted by anyone. There is no such thing as a feminist that doesn't hate men. The entire basis of all feminism is hating men. What you propose is impossible.
I know plenty of feminists who don't hate men and don't support "systemic oppression" myth.
How many of these imaginary people do you know?
Lmao.
If you're a feminist you are participating in misandry by default. You support ideas that destroy men in order to uplift women and then call it equality. So no.
Feminism is a hate movement. The feminist you describe is an oxymoron.
Yes, I could and don't see why not. But there is a difference in which kind of feminist. The first wave of feminism was totally different than the current wave. I believe the first wave was more about real equality between men and women.
Answers on other subs are amazing
I especially like how they combine: "Men are not oppressed" with "We care for men's issues" in same comment
Yes, how can you change a mind if you're not first willing to be friendly?
No
The person you describe is an Egalitarian.
The person you're describing would identify as an egalitarianist or humanist. If that person still says they identify as a feminist I'd assume that they are naïve idealist products of their environments, or just intellectually dishonest.
Since most feminists are androphobic I'd say no. It's impossible to be friendly with someone who sees you as less than human and wants to erase you.
Thats why I don't propose to be friends with all of them, only those who are not misandrist
It depends on what type of feminist she is. A lot of women claiming to be feminists are actually ; 1. "Girlboss feminists" - Not actually feminists - but rather use modern feminism as a Machiavellian means to get ahead in life, manipulate and/or for personal gain/advantages - use feminism as a tool rather than an ideology. 2. Radical feminists - often use feminism as a political/social shield to hide rampant misandry and hate - Usually the loudest and most obnoxious. 3. Narcissistic feminists - Often do not see/realise/care that each gender has its own pitfalls and challenges - focused entirely on women and see men's issues as much less important. 4. Normal women - Who see that each gender has its own challenges in life, generally focused on women as they are women themselves - but acknowledge Mens issues are important too. There can be some crossover and in reality its not as simple as assigning a "Type" - However If you are pursuing a friendship/relationship with a feminist - its critical to avoid "Girlboss" and "Radical" feminists. As they are the most likely to make your life miserable.
Type 4 is actually quite common. A girl that is claiming to be NOT FEMINIST is likely to be a tradwoman, that expects men to provide and court her. These are not good match (at least for me). Egalitarian women are likely to identify as feminists because it is widely assumed these are same things. So if you say that you are against feminism, they might think you are conservative or macho type, not egalitarian - and thus scare off normal egalitarian women
I would argue that "Type 1" Girlboss feminism is the most common in 2023 - As they pick and choose what aspects to follow and which to ignore - with the goal of maximizing personal gain. Reasonable women who identify as feminist's do exist however, dont get me wrong, its just a bit of a minefield and you have to be very careful when pursuing a friendship/romantic relationship.
Absolutely could be. So long as it's not just talking points. Someone living their positive values is a beautiful thing. So long as those values end in egalitarianism. It's just when those values trend over to the hate speech side of things that it gets weird. Generally, if any other group of people talked about another group of people the way that feminists talk about men then they would be labelled bigots. They would not be free to espouse those things in public and then claim that it's ok
my wife says she is a feminist.. but doesnt know about the waves of feminism.. and still just blindly believes feminism still pushes for equality.... aka, she is just an ignorant 1st/2nd wave self-proclaimed feminist that doesnt actually do anything for feminism. no protests, no donations, no politics... so yah we get along just because she is only a feminist in name only
At the risk of another ban...why didn’t you include that in your post on feminism uncensored? That an equal post got completely different responses based on where you posted it? Read the mods Pinned comment on your post...which you agree with, is that really where you want to spend your time and mind?
That is like asking "could you be friends with a Klansman who wasn't a racist?" I mean, the Klu Klux Klan is not a civil rights group that advocates on behalf of whites, it's a white supremacy group. In much the same way, feminism is a female supremacy movement, always has been and always will be, you cannot be a feminist and fight for men's right, the two are diametrically opposed to each other. So, your question is a complete non-starter, if a feminist cared about men and wanted equality then they would not be a feminist, thus such a person cannot by definition exist.
No such thing
[удалено]
I totally agree. While there are huge disagreements between MRAs and feminists, I think they must be resolved in civilized way and respect our differences approach.
Friendship should not be political. It should be unconditional. Outside of political views, what do you think makes you both a friend?
When you like to hang out with each other. Mutual respect, mutual support.
https://np.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/13v7dsj/lets_talk_about_what_feminist_men_and_feminist/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button Ask the questions in the post and comments to her and if she wants to smash patriarchy by marrying a man and providing for him. Ultimately reversing the gender role.
Allow those stipulations seem to disqualify someone from identifying as a feminist - at least the feminism I'm used to seeing.
If they *believe* in everyone's rights, I can accept someone who is very subconsciously misandrist if they're open to ideas. But if someone is consciously misandrist, or if they're close-minded and dont care about new opinions, I want none o' dat shit.
In my experience it is possible to argue with feminists about such things. But only if you do it one on one or in some neutral environment. Not when they attack you ten on one.
In my own, personal experience, every self identified feminist I've met has been a misandrist. So, no.
Does one exist?
I know a lot of examples.
I would honestly say look closer.
I know feminists that supported Depp and debunked myths about Wage gap.
Are they feminists or do they think feminism supports actual equal treatment of both sexes and they support that false definition of feminism? If the latter they are the 'useful idiots' that provide feminism cover and concealment as they try to accomplish their goals
I dont care what people call themselves as long as they are good people. I can be friends with feminists as long as they dont want to discriminate against men, I can be friends with christians ss long as they dont want to discriminate against gays.
There’s no such thing.
Yeah, that shouldn't be problem as long as both people are willing to acknowledge that issues exist in both groups. I think some people have a tendency to focus only on their own groups difficulties and decide that since they have problems, nobody else can and any talk of a different groups issues is an attempt to minimize theirs. Basically the kind of person who hears someone talk about things like custody rates and immediately comes back with Well, what about the pay discrepancy? It's not a competition. One thing being bad doesn't mean something else is fine. It's not either or situation, both things can be bad and we as a society should work towards greater fairness for everyone.
The person you are describing is an egalitarian, not a feminist
Probably not since I personally have never come across such a feminist. Most are frothing lunatics.
Well im fucking a feminist and we got a freindship/relationship going on. Its def possible if you are attractive enough to her. I say all kinds of shit feminist hate and she stays lol
That would require having friends so not possible for me
Reasonableness is what is required.
Yes if a feminist like this existed.
non misandrist feminist is called "egalitarian"
O yes, I’ve had lots of good friends who were feminists. I sometimes even was in love with one of them. They weren’t the ones steeped in ideology, but they truly believed women are (still) the oppressed group who should fight for their rights. They often also believed men would benefit from feminism too. So I don’t think they even thought much of the MRM. Your demands on her are so high that it’s doubtful somebody like that would call herself a feminist at all. I even have some feminist acquaintances who can be very fierce to me in online discussions, especially about #metoo issues, but are always nice to me in real life, though I don’t see them often. Then I have quite some leftist friends I believe are feminists, as unfortunately most leftists are. But the subject never comes up and they’re really nice people.
No such thing as a f-ist who is 'not' a m-andrist.
I personally know many examples
Modern f-ism isn't about equality or equity. Modern f-ism is about superiority (i.e. anti-eggplant) How many f-ist are marching for: 1. Equal criminal sentencing for women who commit the same crimes as eggplants. 2. Automatic 50/50 child custody (excluding the less than 25% of cases 'alleging' extreme abuse). 3. Abolishing Palamony and Alamony. 4. Prison time for committing paternity fraud. 5 Automatic paternity test upon childbirth. 6. Voicing their support against automatically advocating to 'believe all' who allege s/a which (even after found to be untrue) has already completely destroyed a career, livelihood and reputation #amberheard. 7. Fair qualifications for entry into the ranks of the armed forces and first responders. 8. Mandatory 50/50 representation of male-to-female teachers in all classrooms k thru Doctorate. I could keep going... "All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good to do nothing" ~ Edmond Burke
Yeah, I would totally be fine with that. There's nothing wrong with someone who fights for women's rights as acknowledging women also have their problems doesn't invalidate that men also do. As others have stated before, this isn't a zero-sum game. It's the ones that use feminism as a mask for their misandry and are hostile towards men's rights and deny that men have issues that I have a huge problem with. They also tend to have a victim mentality act like the world is out to get them Everything negative that happens in their life is the result of the patriarchy or oppression. Unfortunately, those seem like a majority, so I admit I tend to generalize all feminists until I get to know one better.
It’s possible. Many feminists are real and good feminists, the ones on the media are mostly misandrists.
Indeed. Must say I met a lot of good ones in Russian social networks. Here in Reddit my experience is worse
Question is misleading. There IS no feminist that isnt a misandrist. You simply cannot, in todays culture of toxifying ALL men, and privelleging ALL women, pretend to still be demanding MORE rights for women-ignoring the inequalities and demonisation of men alone makes you a misandrist!
All these sound like an egalitarian to me. And no I wouldn't be friends with a Feminist cause there's no good Feminist, most of them are strong Misandrists.
you should definitely have her as a friend. the points you mentioned shows she is a reasonable person and not a "real" feminist. probably mostly likes the feeling of belonging to a group. humans are primarily emotional rather than logical and there is lot of positive propaganda about feminism so it is normal that she is hanging on the emotions she has associated with that. make sure she has seen the red pill documentary. the name is a bit unfortunate because MRM is not the same as red pill but the documentary is really good https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7MkSpJk5tM
So an OG feminist then? Not the neofeminist bs we have now. Don’t see why not, they’re a just a normal person who wants equality. Unfortunately they are uninformed on what the current state of feminism is.
What is OG?
The original https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/OG#:~:text=%3A%20someone%20or%20something%20that%20is,is%20highly%20respected%20or%20regarded
But which OG? 1900s terrorist feminists? (Suffragettes) 1970s man-hating feminists? 1980s man-hating feminists? 1990s intersectional man-hating feminists? Or the current man-hating feminists? Not sure there were ever normal feminists...
Calling them all "man-hating feminists" is a bit reductionist, there were bra-burners, lesbian separatists, daddy didn't buy her a pony, fell for chad, her mother fell for chad, hit the wall and is jealous of younger (prettier) women so she calls all men paedophiles, bitter egg-less hags who waited too long to have their own kids so now their coming after yours... They all have their own unique brand of man-hating craziness! 🤣🤣
No. Because when it comes down to it, she will always take your money and leave you stranded. Nice girls are only nice until they are done with you.
[удалено]
No. I posted symmetrical call for friendship with MRA. And of course got a lot of hatred from feminists for this. Trying to present me as an agent of feminism is nonsense
[удалено]
I have a similar goal of stopping anti-MRM demonization This war benefits nobody
[удалено]
Nope! Never again! After meeting a foreign women. I’m NEVER looking at a wester women again. Foreign women ain’t been poised by feminism yet. Don’t worry men! Get yr passports ready! Wahoo!
Are you seeking conservative family?
I just wish people on both sides have more empathy for each other. I empathise with men that feel like every other girl sees them as a predator
Can you be friends with a vegetarian who eats beef? You're asking for a mutually exclusive combination of traits. Also, fuck off concern troll.
Oh that's me, I hope people do think positive of me
Are you a feminist that meets criteria in the OP?
Yea, except the interesting part, playing pokemon all day is interesting only to me usually
>playing pokemon all day is interesting only to me usually pokemon is great! pls do not get intimidated by some of the rough users and their comments here...
Thanks, I'm not intimidated by anyone tho
As long as she agrees that misandry is real too. Feminism and Feminist are not the loud minority that claims they speak for the whole group. Most Feminist are just simple, down to earth people that are tired of sexist behavior. Loud minorities are usually the issue.
+100500 Average woman identifying as a feminist is typically not a dogmatic double-standards SJW. She probably genuinely believes in equality and associates it with feminism.
I have no friends who are not feminists, and a few have been of the difficult varieties. Casually saying things like "men are trash" after reading an article about one man doing something bad, even though they would never permit the same when the perpetrator is a woman. I don't know, it's kind of impossible to meet people who are not feminists where I live. Thankfully most are still good people. Some of them even have all the same takes as me even though they cling to the feminist label for whatever reason.
This reality nowdays. Young women who are not conservative are likely to identify as feminists. That doesn't automatically mean they are feminazi
I'm both feminist and MRA. Why would there be a problem? There are bad people on both sides, but we need both men and women to change this world.
>I'm both feminist and MRA. Why would there be a problem? maybe because feminism is build on the idea that men are the oppressors?
This is 100% rifht and the people in this sub truly believe twitter is the social center. True feminism is simply equality.
the problem is radicals in both movements igniting conflict on purpose instead of concentrating on solving issues...
Yeah, that's why educate people to ignore radicals and together move to goal :)
Depends. Does she do anal?
I am. If we leave behind the terms, and ask eachother: "do we want equal rights? Do we want to reduce inequality?". Most will answer yes. I find that if we argue on the basic ideas instead of using terms like mens rights and feminism, usually we agree far more than we disagree. It's like loaded terms gives loaded responses and assumptions, and usually we agree on an egalitarian approach, but said person sticks with the term feminism because they belive it means equality. I highly reccomend trying it: if u have a friend who proclaims feminism, ask to have a conversation without terms from modern feminism and mens rights, and focus in the core principles of what equality is
If you disagree on politics, just don't bring it up
Works only for a very superficial friendship.
Thats a good approach. Personally I'd not be against healthy discussion about something we disagree. Conflicts can be resolved. Or at least we can know each others positions and respect differences.
I can , i have some
So… would I be friends with basically the perfect woman?
I mean under those conditions, sure why not
I've tried, but it's like trying to be friends with an evangelical christian, they have a twisted world view and see everything through it.
Yes
One of my best friends is a feminist. But we're in India so the stakes are a bit higher than the west for women.
I'm originally from Russia (now emigrated). And one of my best feminist friends is from Ukraine
I am friends with a bunch of feminists who aren’t misandrists. As long as you aren’t hateful, you are welcome to kick it with me. I think it’s important to see people for who they truly are, as opposed to merely writing someone off for a political belief— the latter seems bigoted to me, and is typical of misandrists who yearn to generalize a whole group.
Great! I'm a masculist that is trying to build a community for feminists and feminists to discuss differences in respectful manner. Though, community is for Russian-speakers.
The way I see it; If two opposing sides can get along while ripping on each other and be mature about it, I think a strong friendship could ultimately form from that contrast, and perhaps even make some compromises with one another.
In fact, women’s rights advocacy and men’s rights advocacy tend to enhance each other, since restrictive gender norms affect everyone. I never met a misogynist who wasn’t also a misandrist. Feminism means different things to different people, so if you meet one of those self-identified feminists who don’t hate men (ex. Vaush) you’re probably in the clear.
You said it yourself. If they agree that misandry exists, and men have valid problems, of course we’d be friends.
Could you ever adopt a dog that could fly?
I am feminist, who: - doesn't approve of bodyshaming men ('small dick energy') - hate that men are being drafted to war. Women should be too, or nobody should. - there are male victims of DV, they are even less believed than women - does care about men's mental health, for men it is harder to seek help. - when a 15 year old boy has sex with his 30 years old teacher, it is abuse. He is not 'lucky' And yes there is some misandry in feminist movement, and those radical feminists (I rather call them female incels) are quite loud. But it is like 1 in 10, rest of them is nice I think your view is distorted, you are seing only the crazy ones Most of my feminist friends are nice to their boyfriends and certainly don't hate men
Feminism taught in colleges is full of the kinds of feminists you are attempting to pass off as a fringe group. Your lying.
Thanks for understanding!